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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 11 Feb 2009

Vol. 193 No. 13

Order of Business.

The Order of Business is No. 1, Gas (Amendment) Bill 2008 — Committee and Remaining Stages, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business; No. 2, Harbours (Amendment) Bill 2008 — Committee Stage, to resume not earlier than 2.30 p.m. and adjourn not later than 5 p.m. if not previously concluded; and No. 25, Private Members' motion re child poverty, to be taken at 5 p.m. and to conclude not later than 7 p.m.

Following an inquiry yesterday regarding the Legal Services Ombudsman Bill, I propose that the Bill be taken on Thursday of next week.

We thought we had heard everything there was to hear about the banking culture in this country. Senators from all sides will be horrified at the most recent revelations regarding the bail-out, namely, the cooking of the books by which one bank lent to Anglo Irish Bank on the day before its results were to be announced last September. The culture emerging from our banking system is extraordinarily disturbing. We have seen another serious blow to our international reputation this morning with the news that is emerging. I say that very regretfully because we all want to see the real economy working and credit being given to firms.

We will put billions of euro into the banks but if there is not clearer regulation and control by Government, it will be hard to see how the taxpayer will get value for money and the real economy will start to work again. It is absolutely disgraceful for the ordinary taxpayer to see the kind of insider culture that, apparently, has been operating for years with different rules applying to insider groups and with different credit arrangements, which are shocking. I and Fine Gael are very disturbed by it and we will make our own recommendations in regard to the banks recapitalisation.

I would like the Leader to raise the following matter with the Minister for Education and Science. In his speech in the House yesterday, I do not believe he said what he was going to do to special classes and children with disabilities. A letter has been sent to more than 100 schools affecting hundreds of children with special needs stating that special needs classes in schools must be shut down by next September. This means a loss of more than 128 special teaching posts and it will affect children in 119 schools.

This morning the INTO said that this latest Government plan is an outrageous dismantling of the special education infrastructure. The people will hear about the money going into the banks but they will also hear about the Government taking away these services from the most vulnerable in our society, those with special needs.

Will the Leader ask the Minister for Education and Science to account for what he is doing? It was outrageous that when he came into the House yesterday this matter was not on the agenda and that no explanation was given to the Seanad. If there are to be cuts to frontline services, at the very least we should have a discussion in the House. It was a sham for the Minister to come into the House yesterday while at the same time send letters to schools cutting vital services and not even mention it to Senators. It was a disgrace and I ask the Leader to approach the Minister for Education and Science to ask for information on what is happening in special education.

We have seen the suspension of the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act, which is completely against stated Government policy in the past few years. This is a disgraceful measure. It is outrageous that the most vulnerable people are being hit while we are putting billions of euro into banks which have not been accountable.

It makes one feel a bit stupid and foolish, after all the effort we put into the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act and our demands that it be commenced, that it is suspended. Some of us travelled around the country to explain it to people. Not only has the Act not been commenced but the Minister for Education and Science displayed a cowardly attitude in coming into the House yesterday, having cleared a press statement that would wreck the lives of 1,000 pupils, and not feeling it necessary to mention it. The Government is stretching deep into the depths of depravity in its approach to this issue, beginning with the soft target of the public sector last week and continuing with threats to the minimum wage yesterday. I hate to use the cliché but these people must be close to the most vulnerable in society. However, they do not vote, they cannot speak back and some cannot even speak that well. They are an easy target and we can simply trample all over them.

The Government needs to re-establish to where it is going. I do not believe anybody on this side of the House feels any worse about this than anybody on the other side. Decisions need to be taken. The attitude is that as long as you are one of the 35,000 millionaires or are earning more than €100,000 per year, you will not be asked to pay anything extra to people earning below that. The Leader asked us yesterday about the 1%, 2% and 3%. Everybody in the public and private sectors is paying that. That is not the issue about which we are talking. We are talking about the need for progressive taxation. Those who will be kept safe are those on high incomes and those with substantial assets. Those who will suffer are those like the children with special needs.

We will not have seen the backs of these children with special needs and I do not have to produce explanations, surveys or evidence. These children will come back to us through the care system because they will need extra care further down the line. They will come back to us in the ranks of the unemployed when we will have to pay them. They will come back to us when they need housing, when we will need to create sheltered housing. They will come back to us in the crime and the prison populations. That will be the result of the decision.

I cannot believe that the Taoiseach, who I know for more than 20 years, would have consciously taken that decision. I ask the Leader to ask him to reverse it immediately and make those of us who can afford it pay the price of this recession.

The news about Anglo Irish Bank is not only deeply disturbing but is unbelievable. People have not questioned the role of Irish Life & Permanent. Why did it behave in this manner? We have heard the phrase "cosy arrangements" before but if there was ever an example of it, this is it. We know there will be investigations into this matter. However, the Labour Party has advocated that a High Court inspector be appointed to investigate all this. We have enough evidence to say this is fully justified.

We debated the credit institutions financial support scheme while this was going on. The following morning the chief executive of Anglo Irish Bank went on radio to say the bank was okay and that its loans versus assets ratio was fine. The reality was the books were being cooked. It is as simple as that. Irish Life & Permanent facilitated Anglo Irish Bank to ensure its books looked a certain way on the day its profits were announced.

If an investigation is not initiated which has the full confidence of the people and is backed up by the Judiciary, how can people stand behind the decisions the Government is taking, such as cutting the cervical cancer vaccination programme for young girls and cutting teacher numbers?

There was a recent "Prime Time" report into the reconfiguration of hospitals in the mid-west and we have been talking about pay, what people are paid and the sacrifices we are all being asked to make. This report, which demonstrated that the Government would centralise all services, is being debated in the other House today, which I welcome. The motion could be stronger, but I support it. A number of consultants wearing gowns spoke on that programme in a very condescending way, yet the new pay system for these consultants will be announced later this month and many of them will receive large amounts in back pay.

I would like the Leader to answer my questions because they have not been answered on previous occasions. How much will be paid to these consultants in back pay dating back to last June? Is it justifiable? What is the range of pay? Teachers, gardaí, nurses etc. are making sacrifices, yet these people are on €240,000 to €260,000 and are now getting back pay. Is that equitable? I do not believe it is.

Nothing would surprise anybody about Anglo Irish Bank and the activity it has been up to. There is probably a lot more to come from that particular source. What was discovered by David Murphy of RTE last night was far more serious because I have never seen more obvious evidence of a cartel being run by the banks than this particular activity which has been revealed for everybody to see. It is all very well for a cowboy bank like Anglo Irish Bank to carry on in this way — we got used to that — but Irish Life and Permanent is one of the pillars of the Irish banking, insurance, assurance world. It issued a statement last night which was utterly ridiculous and comical. To see it apparently bail out its friends in Anglo Irish Bank is clear evidence that something is going on which is not in the interests of the taxpayer. If I were a shareholder in Irish Life & Permanent I would go bananas to think that €7 billion of my money was going to help a rival which was in danger.

We must remember, because it does not seem to have been picked up, at the time the money was put in on 30 September, the guarantee was not in place. That money was really at risk. It had been announced but it was not in place. It had not passed through these Houses and there was always a danger it would not pass, not just because the Bill could have been defeated but because something could have happened in the meantime which would have altered the situation.

This was grossly irresponsible. However, what is even worse is that the statement from Irish Life & Permanent last night gave the distinct impression that this was normal behaviour on behalf of the banks.

That is desperately serious. The question we must now ask is whether Irish Life & Permanent is doing this for Anglo Irish Bank, and it is normal behaviour, who else is doing it for whomever else? Is the Bank of Ireland doing it for AIB and vice versa?

On a day when the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, will announce that he is putting €7 billion from the pension fund into these banks, is he sure he knows the annual reports, balance sheets and accounts of these banks are in order or credible? It seems to me that he may be buying a pig in a poke and that the annual reports now being issued by the banks are works of fiction and creative art. A desperately serious situation has been unveiled and it no longer concerns just Anglo Irish Bank or Irish Life & Permanent but also Bank of Ireland and AIB.

Perhaps the Leader will address this question. How in the name of God did the auditors of Anglo Irish Bank apparently miss not only the transfer of Mr. FitzPatrick's loans, but an almost parallel activity by another bank where €7 billion was transferred in and out at almost exactly the same time? It is a desperately serious situation and I intend to raise it as a matter for an urgent debate later on. I will read it out at the end of the Order of Business.

I have a number of issues to raise, with the indulgence of the Cathaoirleach, because I did not speak yesterday. The issue of the banks today does not inspire confidence when one considers that many people are losing their jobs and the public service has to deal with an extraordinary pension levy.

Yesterday we discussed the antagonism that can arise between the public sector and the private sector. It has been revealed today that Irish Life & Permanent was involved in skullduggery and it is almost like the carry on of gangsters. Words fail me and I do not understand how we can have faith in it. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan is today finalising ways in which he can recapitalise the banks using the pension fund, which is quite extraordinary.

I was at a meeting recently in a rural area in County Westmeath where farmers spoke about money they were promised and a commitment the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Brendan Smith, gave to them on grants for slatted sheds to the tune of €400 million. These people have bridging loans and are under pressure to pay back these godforsaken banks when the Minister has reneged on the whole plan. I call for his resignation for that reason. One cannot promise something in good faith and then not give it.

The farmers must abide by EU regulations in dealing with the nitrates directive. They built their slatted sheds, borrowed from the banks and are now on bridging loans. It is an absolute disgrace. These farmers have lost all of their part-time work in the construction industry and are put to the pin of their collar to pay back loans. The Minister does not need to come into the House. I ask the Leader as a matter of urgency to ask the Minister to pay the money committed to the farmers he has promised to help.

Another issue I want to raise, which was raised by Senator Butler yesterday, concerns grants for the retrofitting of houses for insulation and heating. I had a number of calls on Monday, as I am sure my colleagues had, about how one can apply for this money. There was a great photocall with the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, on the six o'clock news on Sunday evening. Lads were running in and out with radiators and it seemed as though it was happening all over the country.

We can have a debate on that if the Leader agrees.

There is no information about the scheme on the SEI website or from local authorities. In fact, older people are waiting for two years for heating and grants for essential repairs from local authorities. Older people will be dead before they receive their grants, even for existing essential repairs, yet we have a big announcement about this scheme. Senator Butler was correct to congratulate the Minister but where is the scheme or the money for it?

Another matter, which is one I have been raising for a very long time, is the serious issue of head shops. Are there any developments on this matter? I raised this issue in the House over a year ago and there are still families and youngsters suffering as a result of this illegal practice. These people are paying a lot of taxes to the Government because they are running very successful businesses.

The point is made.

We cannot take money from them and condemn them in the same breath.

Other Senators have rightly expressed shock and dismay at the news of the appalling practices between Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Life & Permanent. Who knows, as Senator Ross said, what other banks are engaged in the practice of propping up each other? It begs the question, if the banks are busy bailing each other out, why on earth are we, as taxpayers, bailing them out? Could it be that the bailing out has been going on for a long number of years among the banks and we did not know about it? Our bail out was carried out in good faith — I voted against it but clearly a majority voted in favour of it — but we were unaware of the mutual bailing out going on between the banks at the time. We need another debate on the issue.

I propose an amendment to the Order of Business calling on the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, to come to the House and tell us what on earth is going on with the cutbacks for the education of children with special needs.

I am reminded of the phrase which got a British governmental adviser into such trouble some years ago. It seems like today is a good day to bury bad news, given the major headlines on the loans between Irish Life & Permanent and Anglo Irish Bank. Clearly other bad news might well be buried on a day like today and this is why we need the Minister to come to the House and tell Members why he is cutting back on education for children with special needs and ending jobs for their teachers at a time when we need more jobs and unemployment is rising. As Senators O'Toole and Fitzgerald have said we will pay in the future for inadequate education for children with special needs.

I remind the House that last night during the debate on education the Minister said, "The Government is committed to providing targeted support for special needs and has allocated additional funding of €20 million for 2009 to continue to enhance front-line services for these children", that is, for children with special needs. How dare the Minister come to the House last night and tell us that, and then announce this morning that he will cut education for children with special needs. We need to have him in the House. I propose an amendment to the Order of Business and have the Minister come in for half an hour simply to tell Members what on earth he is doing.

I have a number of speakers and some of them will miss out again today.

We can put to him the reasons he should reverse this appalling decision.

I wish to raise the issue raised previously by myself and my colleague, Senator Diarmuid Wilson, regarding the legislation on party pills.

Is Senator Keaveney happy with the education cuts?

I am sorry Senator Keaveney, but if there are any more interruptions across the floor — a number of people who wish to contribute are not interrupting — I will suspend the sitting until Senators settle down.

We should find out what the current position is regarding legislation on party pills. We were trying to have them banned before Christmas. They have to be banned under EU directives, so I just wonder what is the current position. Is it planned to bring such legislation before the House in the near future?

As regards yesterday's debate on education, I am quite surprised that at least two of the three Senators who were complaining about it today were not here yesterday to ask the Minister those questions.

We asked questions but did not get answers.

While I was here yesterday for three hours——

(Interruptions).

I am suspending the sitting for ten minutes.

This is complete nonsense. It is a farce.

Sitting suspended at 11 a.m. and resumed at 11.10 a.m.

I am sorry disorder followed my indication that people who spoke earlier had the opportunity to ask questions of the Minister when he was here yesterday. He spent half an hour responding to the issues raised yesterday evening. In the context of the announcements with regard to special education, to which the Minister alluded yesterday, will the Leader ensure we are enabled to discuss the role of the National Council for Special Education?

In my area, we have had an in-depth look at the supports that exist for special education, as most of our special needs assistants were removed by a particular special education needs organiser. Many of those supports have now been returned. Some classes needed to have six special needs children to entitle them to special class status, but many only had three or four. I ask that the National Council for Special Education be proactive in this area. It should examine schools or clusters of schools to see what is going on nationally and provide support. In my view the council should be the guardian angel of special needs children.

Much of this debate was rehearsed yesterday, especially with regard to the fact there is a containment exercise in some respects. There should instead be forward planning of the goals we want to attain for our special educational needs children. I know the Minister has committed extra money to this area. He announced last night that he has provided 50 extra psychologists. There would be value in having a debate on special education, because I know the Minister will ensure no child is left without adequate supports, even in the context of today's announcements.

Last night no-one could ask the Minister for Education and Science the questions about the cuts we only heard about this morning, because he did not tell us they were coming down the tracks.

Senators

Hear, hear.

He did not tell the truth. He was not accountable or honest to the House.

He said six pupils were needed for a special education class.

There was no transparency or honesty and that is outrageous.

Hear, hear. Call the Minister a liar.

Let us have questions to the Leader.

Let me tell the House about these children.

Read the "blacks".

These children are the lowest functioning children. They have IQs from 50 to 70, when the average IQ is from 90 to 110. These are cuts at the bottom. These are the children who need the most help. Schools get a special class when they have nine or more children with these severe needs in the school. Now these teachers are being removed. Some 900 children are being affected and 128 teacher posts lost. Can the Leader bring the Minister back into the House today to address how he will now provide resources for these children?

It took four months to get the Minister here in the first place. It is obvious now that he came in last night because he did not want to answer this question today.

The Senator has made her point.

I want to second Senator Bacik's amendment requiring the Minister to return to the House today. This is a sham. It is another case of the Minister putting buildings before children and people and of discommoding the educational needs of our most needy.

The Senator has her point made. The Order of Business is only for questions to the Leader. I call on Senator Leyden.

I must ask the Leader again, why were we not told this last night? Why did the Minister not tell the truth? There is no accountability to the House, and that is wrong.

I ask the Senator to resume her seat. I call Senator Leyden.

There is no accountability to the House, and that is wrong. The Chair may as well throw us all out.

I ask the Senator to resume her seat.

The letter had gone out. There is no accountability.

I ask the Senator not to bring the House into disrepute and to resume her seat.

The Government has brought the House into disrepute because it is not truthful and honest. It is time we all walked out because we are getting nowhere with this Government in answering honest questions.

Sitting suspended at 11.15 a.m. and resumed at 11.25 a.m.

I am horrified and shocked at the revelations regarding Irish Life & Permanent. Word came through on this last night during the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party meeting. People are shell-shocked at what is happening at present. The Government has been misled with regard to the purchase of Anglo Irish Bank. If this information had been available prior to it being nationalised, it would have changed the reaction and decision made. Quite frankly, we bought a pig in a poke. I am only a small shareholder in Irish Life & Permanent and I believe the management has let down the staff. I call for the resignation of the chairman, who receives €250,000 a year by the way, and the chief executive of Irish Life & Permanent.

Senator Leyden is shy approximately €30,000.

They should resign forthwith.

As a small shareholder I can speak for many and state that I am appalled to think of the money of ordinary people who saved and had trust, faith and hope in a very genuine Irish institution, namely Irish Life & Permanent. These people feel very let down today. We do not know where we are going at this point in time. People do not know the real story with regard to Anglo Irish Bank. We must remember that Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide collaborated on the Sean FitzPatrick loans.

Senator Leyden has made his point.

These loans were transferred overnight to Irish Nationwide. Mr. Fingleton and others should resign because they collaborated in misleading the people. The Houses of the Oireachtas have been misled. People are tired of excuses and explanations. The fraud squad should be brought in to investigate what happened.

Yes, now you are talking.

Senator Leyden has made his point.

People should be put on trial. People should be charged with fraud because this is fraud.

Professional misconduct.

It is a fraudulent misuse of the Irish trust and I call for the fraud squad to be brought in forthwith.

The real danger behind what we learned yesterday about Irish Life & Permanent and Anglo Irish Bank is the damage it does to the confidence in all Irish institutions——

——especially abroad and particularly following a Supreme Court decision on insider trading made in recent years. Those I meet from outside Ireland cast serious doubts about the credibility of Irish institutions and Irish regulation. It was very interesting to hear Commissioner Charlie McCreevy on Monday morning speaking about the need for regulation at European level because individual countries are not trusted with regard to their regulation. Perhaps this is not something he would have suggested normally.

I wish to make a point with regard to last night's decision to cut funding for special needs children. I am very disappointed. We had a very good debate yesterday with the Minister which those of us fortunate enough to be able to participate found interesting and constructive. We had no idea that during the same afternoon the Minister was issuing a press release telling the world something he did not tell us.

I am not just disappointed, I am infuriated by it. Therefore, I support the proposal that, even if it is only for half an hour, the Minister comes to the House and, to a certain extent, we look for an apology from him.

He came here yesterday and spoke about funding but did not tell us that at the same time he was cutting the special needs budget. On this basis, I support Senators Bacik and Healy Eames in their call for a debate, even if it is for only half an hour and if all the Minister states is the reason he did not tell us yesterday. I did not know what he would do.

I wish to draw the attention of the Minister for Health and Children to the problem with two particular drugs which are sold freely in Ireland. These drugs are involved in cough mixtures but apparently they are very dangerous. One of them is methamphetamine and the other is pseudoephedrine. Last year, I wrote to the Minister for Health and Children about this matter, and I understand she does not intend to withdraw them. However, in the United States and elsewhere now they are not freely available. They are only available from behind the counter or on prescription and this is a measure we should introduce. I raised this matter last April and last July in County Offaly the Garda intercepted and arrested a number of people with a large quantity of these drugs which were clearly aimed at the Irish market. I will write to the Minister again and I ask for the Leader's help to draw her attention to the fact that these are dangerous and they are not just cough mixtures.

I support Senators McFadden and Keaveney in their call for an update from the Minister for Health and Children on the increase in the number of head shops in the country, in particular with regard to the drug known as BZP. I raised this matter on the Adjournment last November. The drug, commonly known as the "party pill" or "legal E", is a synthetic stimulant with the chemical name benzylpiperazine. It was originally used as a warming treatment for animals. An EU decision last year made BZP subject to control measures. A Council decision states quite clearly that, due to its stimulant properties, risk to health and the lack of medical benefits, and following the precautionary principle, there is a need to control BZP. The EU Council of Ministers decided on 3 March 2008 that the drug should be regulated in accordance with the UN Convention on Psychotropic Substances, 1971. I understand EU member states have up to 12 months to introduce legislation to ban the drug. As 3 March 2009 is fast approaching, I call on the Leader to ask the Minister for Health and Children to state the up-to-date position on introducing such legislation. I do not believe legislation is necessary to ban the drug and that it could be banned under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1977 by adding it to the relevant list of banned substances. I ask the Leader to provide us with an update on this matter urgently because the drug is causing serious damage to the young and most vulnerable in every town.

I join my colleagues in calling for a debate on the revelations last night concerning the banking sector. I was very struck by the phrase that our financial institutions need to look after each other during times like these. Where is this solidarity when small and medium-sized businesses go to the banks looking for help? They cannot get help at present.

The reason the recapitalisation proposals that are likely to be discussed in the coming days are to come before the House is because Irish banks cannot obtain private capital from institutional investors abroad. What institutional investor would, on the basis of the figures we heard last night, be willing to invest in the banks? Is it not the case that the revelations could deal a hammer blow to the model that has been proposed for recapitalising Irish banks? It is now even less likely that any international investor will want to invest in these businesses.

I am not making this point in a partisan sense but contending that it really goes to the heart of what we are discussing. We are investing public money because the financial institutions cannot obtain private money. Who will give private money now?

I agree strongly with what Senator Leyden said. What we have witnessed is an act of vandalism that will go to the core of our State. Nothing less than the fraud squad appearing at the banks alleged to have been involved will give hope to the country and restore the confidence of investors abroad. If any one of the institutions proposes to pay a bonus to the people sitting on their boards, the Government should impose a levy of 99%. Every additional cent the board members are seeking should be levied in this manner. Let us have a levy the entire country can get behind.

I call Senator Callely but ask him to be brief because I want to allow one more Senator to contribute. The time is almost up.

I understand the Government, particularly the Minister for Finance, is very determined to ensure we have a good, healthy, functioning banking sector. It is important to acknowledge that thousands of people who have invested in and are working for the financial institutions have done no wrong whatsoever. They, too, need some encouragement. While there are instances of concern, we should acknowledge clearly they are isolated in the overall context of the turnover of billions upon billions of euro. The Government will, with determination, address all the issues and ensure we have a healthy, working financial system that operates in the best interest of everybody required to use the financial institutions.

Will the Leader ask the responsible Minister to brief the House on the national insulation programme? I welcome the investment of €100 million in energy efficiency and insulation programmes. I congratulate Senator Larry Butler, who has pursued this matter at parliamentary party level for some months.

I ask that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government be invited to the House to brief us on the State housing stock, the local authority loans and sales schemes and, in particular, social and affordable housing options. The president of the Institute of Professional Auctioneers and Valuers, Mr. Alan Redmond, has called for a review of the income limits for applicants for the new home choice loan scheme.

The Senator's time has concluded. I am anxious to allow another Senator to contribute.

I support Mr. Redmond and ask that the House consider the various loans and limits that apply.

I took part in yesterday's debate on education, which was good and vigorous. I took certain electoral risks by supporting elements of Government policy but feel betrayed because the Minister clearly knew there would be cuts to special needs provision. The people affected are vulnerable, yet every agency or organ of the State that speaks out on their behalf has been dismantled. There are very few representatives left other than those in this House to speak out on their behalf. This seems to be parallel to what is occurring with the financial institutions in that people in responsible positions have been concealing toxic elements from the public gaze. The Minister is doing this and it is absolutely wrong. I am sorry I did not walk out of the commemoration of the first sitting of the Dáil in 1919 because Members are regurgitating all sorts of ideals but not acting on them. The Minister should come to the House to explain this.

I find what is occurring with the banks quite extraordinary. It seems that it will never stop and there are revelations every day. The continuous drip, as Senator Quinn referred to it, will certainly affect our international reputation. It is quite astonishing. What occurred constitutes deceit and the institutions were concealing things. Banks were collaborating and there is no question or doubt about it. Perhaps the fraud squad should become involved.

What has occurred seems to have been widespread. This morning on the radio I heard a State agency, Dublin Docklands Development Authority, is now refusing to pay interest to a bank that is owned by the taxpayers. What is going on? The same cast of characters continues to appear in regard to this issue. Will the Leader allow the question to be asked whether, at this stage and in these circumstances, it is appropriate to hazard another €7 billion of taxpayers' money in this financial maelstrom?

I call the Leader.

Will the Leader inform his troops that there will be a briefing session on domestic partnership at 1 p.m. in the audiovisual room, organised by speakers from the Irish Council for Civil Liberties? Perhaps Members would like to attend.

The Senator is advertising in the Chamber. I call on the Leader to reply. I apologise for——

Has the Cathaoirleach allowed for the fact that he adjourned the House during the Order of Business? If he has not——

To be honest, it was not my fault the House was adjourned.

I appreciate that but surely the clock stops when the House is adjourned.

I am not stopping any clock for Members who are interrupting.

The Cathaoirleach has been unfair to the Members who have been here all morning.

I apologise to the Members who——

The Cathaoirleach has been unfair to the Members who have been here all morning.

If the Seanad is adjourned, it is not working.

I call the Leader.

The Cathaoirleach is not dealing appropriately with the issue——

The House should take account of when the clock stops.

It was a suspension of the House.

Whatever the Cathaoirleach wants to call it——

I call the Leader to reply to the Order of Business.

Senators Fitzgerald, O'Toole, Kelly, Ross, McFadden, Leyden, O'Brien, Quinn, Donohoe, Callely and Norris expressed strong views on the latest announcements from banking circles and the allegations regarding the bank culture that has obtained in Ireland for some considerable time. I acknowledge the views of Senator Quinn on the danger that private investment in the banks will not be forthcoming. This is very serious.

I expect legislation to be forthcoming for our consideration on the recapitalisation of the banks. As soon as the information becomes available to me from Government I will liaise with the Cathaoirleach and the leaders of the various groups. I put the House on notice that there may be a sitting or an extension of a sitting day in the very near future. We will discuss and deliberate on the issue at length. I have no difficulty in allocating whatever time is required by Senators to express their views in the House. I refer in particular to those Senators who have expertise in the financial world that predates their becoming Members of the House. They can make their views known on the floor of the House live on television with the Minister present to the benefit of the nation.

It is a serious situation in which we find ourselves. It is no pleasure for the Government to have to put €7 billion into the two main banks at present, but it has to be done so that commerce can continue. The lifeblood of business in Ireland is credit and it is not available to most operations currently. The situation has improved slightly from what it was.

We all know now why there was a delay in the Taoiseach and Government putting together a master plan. We did not know the situation fully until we put directors into the banks. I compliment the former chairman of the Revenue Commissioners and the former Minister for Finance, who are directors at the present time, on their hard work and endeavour in Anglo Irish Bank. Until we put directors into all of the banks we will not know the full extent of the problem. One cannot implement the master plan until one knows at least 80% of the extent of the problem.

The revelations emerged on a weekly basis but now they are coming out on an hourly basis and are shocking. It has been said this morning that those of us who are here for the longest time have never seen anything like what is happening now. It is unprecedented. We need expertise, guidance, help and assistance from all parties, right across the political persuasion in both Houses to meet the challenges that are facing us. At the end of the day it is people and jobs that really matter. Everything must be focused around jobs. It is a serious situation when 6.5% of the working public is paying 50% of our income tax.

The Minister for Education and Science was very welcome to the House yesterday. It was a stimulating debate and exchange of views. Regarding the statement that emerged last night on learning support class size, I will request the Minister to come back to the House. The allocation to schools typically increased or decreased according to pupil enrolments. In the case of classes for mild general learning disability a minimum of nine pupils is required to retain a teaching post.

It should be related to disability not numbers.

In the case of 128 classes in 119 schools, the number of pupils dropped below the minimum. Those schools therefore are no longer entitled to the teaching posts——

That is a cutback by any other name.

——for those classes. On the other hand, of 80 schools, 17 will now be due an additional post when the pupils in question are divided among the mainstream classes. Essentially, the loss of the teaching posts from the mild classes will be offset by the additional posts required to maintain the lower class sizes because of their disadvantaged categorisation. I will endeavour to have the Minister come back to the House to explain the issue in minute detail to colleagues and for a debate to take place on the issue on which colleagues have strong views.

It took us so long to get him here in the first place.

Members, please.

It took us four months to get the Minister into the House.

Senator McFadden raised the worthwhile topic of a grant for slatted sheds. As we all know, that has been the backbone responsible for keeping many people in the construction industry employed in the midlands area in particular in the past 18 months. It was a wonderful idea to bring forward. Those of us who are familiar with everyone involved in the construction industry, especially in my part of north Westmeath, will know that has been decimated. The unemployment exchange in Castlepollard has the third highest number of people signing on in the country. It is no pleasure for me to say that. As the House is aware, in north Westmeath we are totally dependent on the motor industry and the construction industry, whether it be gravel, sandpits or ready-mix concrete. That grant has kept many people in employment.

The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Smith, who comes from a neighbouring parish just down the road, across the bridge of Finnea in the constituency of Cavan-Monaghan, has been strong in his support for the grant but the huge amount of applicants availing of it has surprised everyone in the Department. The amount of money that has been allocated is approximately €400 million. I am speaking from memory so I am open to correction on that figure. We will do everything we possibly can, Senator McFadden and I as two Westmeath Senators, along with Senator Glynn, to see what we can do to ensure that the Minister——

Make the Minister, Deputy Smith, pay.

The Leader should be allowed to speak without interruption.

——makes available as a matter of urgency the capital that is needed for those farmers who are on bridging finance in particular. I refer especially to young farmers who we want to encourage to stay on the land.

As we know, the public service is playing its part at present in this time of recession but nobody plays any greater part than those working in the agricultural sector. They are the people to whom we must give our support to ensure they will have sustainable jobs in the next year or two years.

I wholeheartedly welcomed the national insulation programme yesterday that was announced last Sunday. The sum of €160 million is significant in these difficult times. I welcome in particular the allocation of €50 million for local authorities for roof and wall insulation and the replacement of high efficiency gas and oil fired boilers, heating control upgrades and the building energy rating. All that is welcome. I support all the calls that have been made in that regard. I am sure the instruction and qualification leaflets will be available in the next day or two. I welcome the roof insulation grant of €250, the cavity wall insulation grant of €400——

When is the scheme to be introduced?

——the internal wall dry lining grant for €2,500, with internal wall insulation grants of up to €4,000. The scheme is especially welcome at a time when people are available to do the work and have the expertise. It will be a help for old people in particular who need all the heat that is possible in their homes.

When is the scheme being introduced?

When will we get it?

The Leader should be allowed to speak without interruption.

The allocation of €160 million is to be welcomed. I welcome also the grant for heating controls upgrade of €500. I compliment the Minister on bringing this initiative forward. The Seanad has been significant in that context. I refer in particular to the report by Senator Larry Butler, which he brought to the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party on two occasions. That has certainly borne fruit. That is only the start of the €9 billion expenditure that has been outlined for our consideration in Senator Butler's plan.

Senators Keaveney, Wilson and McFadden inquired about the party pill Bill coming before the House. I will pass the strong views of the Senators to the Minister on the matter. I will inform the House on the Order of Business tomorrow when it is proposed to take the Bill.

Senator Feargal Quinn outlined to the House his serious concerns regarding two drugs. He wants me to pass on our strong support for his views to the Minister for Health and Children to have them withdrawn forthwith. I have no difficulty in agreeing to that request on behalf of all Senators on this side of the House. I will do it following the Order of Business.

I asked the Leader a specific question on hospital consultant contracts.

I have no control over what replies the Leader makes.

If I may be allowed to speak. I apologise to the Senator. I will come back to him in the morning with an up-to-date position on the serious concern he has on the issue.

On a point of order, I wish to raise under Standing Order 30——

I cannot take that matter at the moment.

Can the Cathaoirleach take it after the Order of Business?

Senator Bacik moved the following amendment to the Order of Business: "That statements on the cutbacks in the education of children with special needs be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?

Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 21; Níl, 27.

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Buttimer, Jerry.
  • Coffey, Paudie.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • Donohoe, Paschal.
  • Fitzgerald, Frances.
  • Hannigan, Dominic.
  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • Kelly, Alan.
  • McFadden, Nicky.
  • Norris, David.
  • O’Reilly, Joe.
  • Phelan, John Paul.
  • Prendergast, Phil.
  • Quinn, Feargal.
  • Regan, Eugene.
  • Ross, Shane.
  • Ryan, Brendan.
  • White, Alex.

Níl

  • Boyle, Dan.
  • Brady, Martin.
  • Butler, Larry.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Cannon, Ciaran.
  • Carty, John.
  • Cassidy, Donie.
  • Corrigan, Maria.
  • Daly, Mark.
  • de Búrca, Déirdre.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Feeney, Geraldine.
  • Glynn, Camillus.
  • Hanafin, John.
  • Keaveney, Cecilia.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • MacSharry, Marc.
  • McDonald, Lisa.
  • Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
  • Ó Murchú, Labhrás
  • O’Brien, Francis.
  • O’Donovan, Denis.
  • O’Sullivan, Ned.
  • Ormonde, Ann.
  • Phelan, Kieran.
  • Walsh, Jim.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Ivana Bacik and Fidelma Healy Eames; Níl, Senators Déirdre de Búrca and Diarmuid Wilson.
Amendment declared lost.
Order of Business agreed to.
Barr
Roinn