I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Joe O'Brien.
Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters
School Meals Programme
I thank the Cathaoirleach for giving me a platform to raise this matter. I welcome the Minister of State. I thank him for the good work he is doing in the Department as part of the Government's programme. We appreciate it.
The free school meals programme is outstanding. I compliment the Government, which has constantly acknowledged this. More schools will be in the programme from this year and there will be a significant increase in funding. In 2017, the figure was €47 million. In the most recent budget, €68.1 million was put aside for the free school meals programme. It is a vital programme. It ensures that children who may not get a hot meal at home, whatever the circumstances are, will have a meal in school. The vast majority of the general public think it is a very good scheme.
There are difficulties with the programme and I am sure the Minister of State is aware of them. I have spoken to a few of the suppliers. They are warning they will not be able to continue to provide the service in the coming months due to rising costs. We see the cost of fuel increasing because of the war. We see the cost of food increasing. One of the biggest costs the suppliers have is packaging. Those preparing meals and food must have the proper packaging and hygiene standards. It is very important. The education and training boards in Ireland have expressed serious concern about the situation. I do not believe the rates of payment have changed in ten years. It is €2.90 per student for a hot meal, €1.40 for a lunch and 60 cent for a breakfast. These rates have not changed in almost a decade. I am sure the Minister of State and the House will agree that this is not sustainable.
It is important to state that the Government is committed to the scheme. I compliment the Department of Social Protection, the Minister, the Minister of State and the officials on the work they are doing in respect of it. I acknowledge that the scheme is being evaluated at present but I warn on the time span for this. We cannot afford to hang around too long on this matter. More and more suppliers will drop out. This would be a tragedy. It is one of the best schemes we could have. It is focused on young people who may not be getting a meal at home. From speaking to them, people genuinely believe that the scheme is fantastic. The Government is aware of this. The Minister of State is very aware of it, as is the Minister, Deputy Humphreys.
I am worried about the time span for the review. When will the evaluation come to an end? I do not know whether the Minister of State will have news for me on this today. If he does not, I urge that we carry out the evaluation as quickly as possible so we do not allow a situation to arise in any school in the scheme whereby a child would go without this very valuable meal.
I will not take up any more time on it. I have made my case to the Minister of State and he understands where I am coming from. I appreciate the Government understands there is a problem there but we need to address it as quickly as possible.
I thank Senator Murphy and now call on the Minister of State, Deputy O'Brien who has four minutes to respond.
I thank the Senator for raising this important issue. As Chair of the food poverty working group, which includes representatives of government Departments and civil society, I am a strong supporter of the school meals programme and its recent expansion. The school meals programme provides funding towards the provision of food services to some 1,600 schools and organisations benefitting 260,000 children. The objective of the programme is to provide regular, nutritious food to children to position them to take full advantage of the education provided to them. The programme is an important component of policies to encourage school attendance and extra educational achievement. Budget 2022 provided €68.1 million for the programme with an additional €9 million provided to allow access to all new DEIS schools from September 2022. Additional funding for the programme has been provided for 2023 bringing the total to €91.6 million. This represents a 49% funding increase in the period since 2020.
In March 2022, the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, announced an extension of the DEIS status to an additional 320 schools from September. In July, the Minister of State, Deputy Humphreys, announced that access to the hot school meal option would be extended to the 282 newly designated DEIS primary schools and that the cold lunch option would be extended to the 38 newly designated DEIS secondary schools from September, benefitting some 60,000 children. Funding under the school meals programme can be provided for breakfast, snack, cold lunch, dinner, hot school meals and after-school clubs and is based on a maximum rate per child per day, depending on the type of meal being provided. The current school meals programme was set up in 2003. The funding rates for the various meal options were set at that time. However, the hot school meal option was introduced in 2019, to facilitate the provision of hot meals prepared off-site to pupils attending primary schools which did not have cooking facilities on-site. The hot school meal rate of €2.90 per meal per day was set in 2019.
The Minister, Deputy Humphreys, and I are committed to continuing to expand the school meals programme and building further on the significant extension of the programme in recent years. In this regard, an evaluation of the school meals programme to review all elements of the programme, including the funding rates currently being provided for the various meal options, has been commissioned. The final report is due to be completed by the end of the year and will help to inform future decisions around this important programme. Issues regarding the funding rates will be considered in the context of this evaluation. I thank the Senator for raising this matter as it is a key and crucial to our work in the Department.
I thank the Minister of State, Deputy O'Brien. The Senator has one minute to respond.
I welcome the response from the Minister of State. I am particularly glad he points out that this evaluation should be finished by the end of the year and that the cost factor in terms of the meals will be looked at because that is what is needed now. Again, I complement him on the work he does in that area. The funding is even more significant than I thought which is great news. As I have said, I spoke to one supplier last night and one or two others last week, and a few schools had contacted me as well. The cost of packaging and other things are massive at the moment and we all understand that cost-of-living issue is there and I am sure the Government accepts that as well. I will not detain the Minister of State any longer on this. I welcome his response and thank him for coming the House this morning to give us time on this matter.
I again thank the Senator for raising the matter. To give a little more information on the evaluation commissioned earlier this year, it involved close consultation with all the stakeholders and workshops and interviews have been conducted with teachers, principles, children as well as suppliers. Key issues to be explored as part of the evaluation include: whether the schools meals programme meets its aims; what the practicalities are for schools moving to a hot school meals option; what works well and what is not working well; how the programme can be better delivered; the extent to which the school meals programme has improved school attendance and education attainment; how the scheme compares with other programmes in other countries; what might be the implications of extending the scheme; what are the implications of the EU child guarantee for the school meals programme; and indeed the cost issue the Senator has raised as well. As I said, the final report is due to be completed at the end of the year; we are hoping it will be done in the next two weeks.
Rail Network
The Minister of State at the Department of Health, with responsibility for mental health and older people, Deputy Mary Butler, is very welcome to the House.
Our next Commencement matter is in the name of Senator Lisa Chambers and it relates to the western rail corridor.
I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, to the Chamber. I understand the Minister for Transport, Deputy Ryan, is at Cabinet this morning so I appreciate her taking this matter. My question is in relation to the western rail corridor which I have raised on numerous occasions in this Chamber. Last week, quite disappointingly, the Minister for Transport, Deputy Ryan, and the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Naughton, both attended an EU meeting where they welcomed the inclusion of Galway Port and the Navan rail line onto the EU Ten-T core network map - which is basically every member state identifying what their core transport network is in the country - and they did not see fit to mention the western rail corridor or to take the opportunity to include it on the Ten-T map. The western rail corridor used to be on that map. It was removed by the former Minister for Transport, an Tánaiste, Deputy Varadkar, and we have been campaigned to have it on the map ever since. My question relates to what the Minister of State proposes to do to get the western rail corridor onto the Ten-T map and to the all-island rail review in which the western rail corridor is currently languishing waiting to get the green light from Government for money to get this project off the ground.
My questions then are on the western rail corridor, Ten-T network map and the all-island rail review.
On behalf of the Minister for Transport, Deputy Ryan, I thank Senator Chambers for the opportunity to address this issue in the House today. While I am not all over the detail of it, I have a prepared answer from the Minister who, as the Senator quite rightly said, is currently in Cabinet. I am aware the Senator has raised this issue on many occasions. As a colleague of hers for many years, I know she has continued to raise this issue and I am hoping there is something in the reply that might satisfy her.
As the Senator is aware, two reports were published in relation to the proposed reopening of the western rail corridor phases two and three and the Minister for Transport brought the conclusions of both these reports to Government in December 2020. The first is known as the EY report which was commissioned by Iarnród Éireann in line with the decision of the previous Government. This report consisted of a financial and economic appraisal of the potential reopening of the western rail corridor in phases two and three. There was criticism of some aspects of that report, particularly by those who advocated for a reopening of the corridor. However, as it has been said, two reports were published and the second is known as the Joint Assistance to Support Projects in European Regions, JASPERS, review. JASPERS is an agency established by the European Commission and the European Investment Bank to assist member states in making investments in European regions such as the west of Ireland. In October 2020, the JASPERS review concluded that the findings of the EY report were not unreasonable. On the projected cost and demand, areas of the EY report, which were subject to some public criticism, were found by the JASPERS review to be within reasonable ranges although perhaps based on a design solution and operational plan which might be considered overly optimistic. However, in its four key observations of the JASPERS review, that in my mind should be particularly focused upon, the agency notes the proposed reopening of the western rail corridor did not address any identified social or transport constraint; did not sit within any broader strategic framework for the development of rail in Ireland; did not contribute towards our climate action objectives; and would not attract EU funding in its present form. As any of those observations would be important to a proposed investment of hundreds of millions of taxpayers' money, to have all four observed about a proposal is clearly a concern. Noting the conclusion in the JASPERS review, that there was a lack of strategic context for planning investment in the heavy rail network, the Minister for Transport, in partnership with the Minister for Infrastructure in Northern Ireland, announced in 2021 his intention to undertake an all-Ireland strategic rail review. This review considers how the rail network on the island of Ireland can improve in order to promote sustainability, connectivity, enhanced regional accessibility between the major cities, and support balanced regional development. The review examines how the railways are used, how they could be used in future, and how the network can evolve to serve the people of the island of Ireland while achieving policy goals.
I refer to rail networks and the trans-European transport network, TEN-T, map. The Department of Transport indicated to the European Commission that its position on TEN-T rail network would be informed by the results of the ongoing all-Ireland strategic rail review and that it was hoped the outcome of the review would be reflected in the map. The strategic rail review is being undertaken in co-operation with the Department for Infrastructure in Northern Ireland and it will inform the development of the railway sector on the island of Ireland in the coming decades. The review will consider the potential scope for improved rail services along various existing or future corridors of the network. That scope includes the western rail corridor and connectivity with Northern Ireland. Work on the review is at an advanced stage and a key consideration of the analysis is how the rail network can support regional and rural connectivity. The Minister for Transport is looking forward to the draft report of the review being made available shortly and it will be published once it receives appropriate ministerial approval on both sides of the Border.
I thank the Minister of State for her comprehensive reply. Three reports have been published on the western rail corridor in recent times. The Minister of State rightly referred to the EY report, which has been completely discredited. As to the response it received, to say there was criticisms of some aspects of the report is being very kind. I will not delve into it further on this occasion.
I often wonder how the JASPERS review might have viewed Knock Airport when it was in its infancy. The airport would not have been built if the same approach had been taken in analysing the prospective success of such projects in a region such as the west.
What is missing from the Minister of State's reply is the Bradley report on the western rail corridor that was commissioned by West=On=Track. It provided Professor John Bradley's appraisal of the economic and social benefits of the western rail corridor and showed that not only would it be financially viable, but it would bring social and economic benefit to the region. It would do exactly what the Government says it wants to do, that is, to connect the region and bring balanced regional development.
We have been told for quite some time that the draft report can be expected imminently. It would be welcome to have an approximate date as to when we can expect to see the report. I have grave concerns about ministerial approval, North and South, being required to publish the report. There is no a functioning Executive in Northern Ireland and we do not know when we will get one. We cannot allow this to constrain us from progressing an important project for an entire region.
The Senator has raised three valid points, including the fact that three reports were commissioned but only two were referred to. She mentioned Professor John Bradley's report, which I will certainly raise with the Department of Transport.
She is correct in that it is an approximate date for the publishing of the draft report. The Minister expects to receive a draft report of the review shortly. The intention is to publish it as soon as possible thereafter in co-operation with the Department for Infrastructure in Northern Ireland, whose Minister would also need to approve the report. With the current situation in Northern Ireland, this could be problematic and delay the whole process. I will also raise this with the Department of Transport. I thank the Senator for raising this matter.
I will make a final plea. When looking at the rail network map for the country, an entire region - the west and north west - does not feature. County Donegal has no rail link, County Monaghan has no rail link and the service to County Mayo is fairly limited, yet we have emissions reduction targets in transport of 75%. That will not be achievable if we do not connect one third of the country by rail link.
As to the requirement of ministerial approval from Northern Ireland, the message needs to get back to the Minister for Transport that he needs to go back to the drawing board on this matter. It is unacceptable that we in the Republic would be constrained because of the lack of an Execute in Northern Ireland. That will not wash with the people of the west and north west.
Mental Health Services
The Minister of State is welcome to the Chamber. More than 100 children and young adults have been waiting for more than a year for mental health appointments in Limerick and the mid-west, and this is not good enough. I am aware there are many problems recruiting consultant child psychiatrists. While some have been recruited in recent times, there are six teams and they are in the process of developing a seventh but it has not happened to date.
It was reported in the Limerick Post that 371 children and young adults were awaiting an assessment during the period of June to September 2022, 103 of whom were waiting more than one year. This stark figure is high in a short timespan. The figure represents 9.7% of the overall national waiting list for child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, which stands at approximately 3,800. According to available national figures, this places services in the mid-west as the fifth lowest in terms of waiting numbers. It is more concerning that the region is in fifth place.
Do more programmes need to be brought into schools? How do we begin to address this? It is frightening to find that many children and young adults are on the waiting list while availing of services. I am concerned there are probably more children and young adults not on a waiting list who have not come forward and are experiencing issues. We need to have a wider conversation on this issue. What plans has the Department to introduce programmes into schools and to deal with these people, especially the 100 individuals who are waiting more than one year?
I thank the Senator for raising this matter. I am delighted to be in the Seanad to discuss the issue of CAMHS waiting lists in the Senator's community healthcare organisation, CHO, and nationally because it is something on which I have put a huge focus. The Government and I remain committed to the development of all aspects of mental health services. As the Senator will be aware, the mental health budget for 2023 is in excess of €1.2 billion, which is another record budget for mental health services, and a continued focus will be on reducing waiting lists for CAMHS and primary care psychology services.
The CAMHS waiting list nationally was 2,755 in December 2020. It increased to 3,556 in December 2021 and, unfortunately, as of October this year, the provisional figure was 4,043, of which 398, or approximately 10% of the national waiting list, were in CHO 3, which covers the Limerick area. This figure is a slight increase on the same period last year, which was 355.
In the past year, we have seen an unprecedented number of referrals presenting to CAMHS all over the country. There were 25% more referrals last year than any previous year. We saw a huge spike in the number of young people presenting with eating disorders, with 504 entering the clinical programmes last year. When this programme was devised in 2016-17, they expected approximately 60 children would be referred.
Many children get referred to CAMHS but they do not all meet the criteria. Only 2% of children who are referred need CAMHS supports, with others, for example, needing supports provided by primary care psychology services, community teams and the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS. It is important to note that the CAMHS waiting list can relate to capacities in other parts of the system where young people may not receive early intervention and their needs may escalate requiring referral to CAMHS. Access to the CAMHS system is based on a clinical assessment, with urgent cases being prioritised. Data made available to the Department of Health indicates that the mid-west CHO, encompassing Limerick city and county, has the fifth lowest waiting list for CAMHS services, as the Senator said.
The CAMHS service in the mid-west CHO is currently provided by six consultant child psychiatrist-led multidisciplinary teams. There is a seventh team, as the Senator said, in development that will facilitate additional capacity for service provision and a welcome, more timely response to referrals. Over recent months, significant progress has been made in recruiting for the filling of existing vacancies and new development posts. However, there are ongoing issues with recruitment in particular disciplines, especially consultant child psychiatrists, which is an issue reflected nationally. Several other disciplines are also affected, including nursing and psychology. My priority is to improve access to CAMHS and reduce waiting lists. As the Senator said, what else can we do? It will include measures such as better links with primary care or disability services and greater use of e-mental health responses.
One of the CAMHS e-mental health sites nationally is identified for CHO 3 and the Limerick area. This will be very welcome. Referrals to CAMHS inpatient beds may not be appropriate in some instances where other options, such as CAMHS community teams, may be more suitable and effective. Each referral to an inpatient bed is triaged and assessed for overall need through a weekly teams conference of all four inpatient units.
Regarding the waiting lists, I have placed great focus on this aspect and secured funding to try to reduce it. Working through the HSE, we have contacted the various CHOs to see what they can do. We did this in primary care psychology. We targeted the waiting lists of over 12 months first, because these are the children needing these services the most. Unfortunately, when a priority case comes in, children who may have milder needs get bumped down the list, and this is not what we want to see.
I thank the Minister of State. I apologise because I meant to acknowledge the work she and her team have done to date. The situation has improved a great deal, but we also have a long way to go. I welcome that Limerick is going to be used for a pilot scheme, as the Minister of State highlighted. When I see the figures in this regard, they are stark. I refer to the number of young people needing support and care. Good work is going on in the primary care centres and with different teams. The major issue, though, is how to recruit replacement staff when vacancies occur and how to get these posts and services back up and running as quickly as possible. This is the kernel of the issue here.
There are so many organisations, like the Children's Grief Centre and others, that support care. Many of these organisations do this voluntarily. Are we seeking to expand the programme, include organisations that have the expertise and experience in this area and bring them in to work alongside the HSE team? This is just a suggestion, but anything we can do to address the waiting lists will certainly be most welcome. I look forward to a further response later regarding how we are going to reduce the waiting lists and bring down the numbers in this regard.
I reiterate that there will be three new CAMHS e-mental health pilot sites nationally. One has been identified for CHO 3 and the Limerick area. I have seen this model work well in the Roscommon area. It is one of the key recommendations of the Maskey report, which resulted from the situation that occurred in south Kerry. As the Senator will be aware, an audit and a review are under way now. The audit concerns the HSE. We are auditing all 73 CAMHS teams in respect of access to them, whether they are meeting their standard operating procedures, whether the full teams are staffed and where the gaps and deficiencies are. We are also examining, for example, the issue regarding prescribing practices. In parallel to this undertaking, the Mental Health Commission is running a similar review. I hope I will have all these data available to me in the first quarter of 2023. This will give me, the Department and the HSE data we never had previously. If we have to make best practice changes, we will.
A huge amount of work is being done in CHO 3. I know the lead consultant psychiatrist there, Dr. Foley, who is doing phenomenal work. I refer again to the number of complex cases being referred in. I spoke recently about a situation where one young person was just released from CAMHS care after four years. She had 96 interventions and saw the team on 96 occasions. There are, therefore, many complex cases that need much work and support. It takes a lot of time, but my complete focus is on trying to reduce this waiting list. I thank the Senator for her suggestions. We can talk about them later.
I thank the Minister of State.
Veterinary Services
I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, to the Chamber. It is great to have him here. My Commencement matter this morning concerns the potential and capacity in the veterinary sector. We have one veterinary school in the State. It has been in place for more than 100 years and University College Dublin, UCD, has done a phenomenal job during that time. What I wish to debate today, though, is building capacity in this sector. We have a veterinary industry which has served society competently over the last 100 years, but we must change our approach concerning how many veterinarians we have in our State. This aspect must be examined. Our agricultural industry has changed completely. It is a global performer when it comes to veterinary husbandry and how this sector operates. We also have a major small practice element now, which was not traditionally present. Unfortunately, as well, our vets are getting older. The age demographic of our population of vets has changed significantly in the last two decades. We must change our approach in many ways in this area, therefore, and try to get more vets into the system.
As the Minister of State is probably aware, 82 places were allocated to study veterinary medicine last year. Under the Central Applications Office, CAO, applications process, ultimately 601 points were required to get a place on the course. That is a significant threshold. The course was chosen by 581 people as their first choice. This shows the interest that exists. We had 500 disappointed applicants. There is significant interest, particularly among younger people, in studying veterinary medicine. The capacity for the number of places required does not exist now. Unfortunately, because of this lack of capacity, as the Minister of State is very much aware, 70 students are now doing first-year veterinary medicine in Poland, while another 30 students are undertaking such studies in Hungary. We do not have the figures for England and Scotland. Overall, however, we have hundreds of students studying this course abroad. This alone shows the need for a second veterinary school here. We must explore thoroughly how we can accommodate this potential in the sector.
As an active farmer and a member of the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine, vets tell me about the deficiency in the numbers in their profession every time they come into the yard, as well as the need for change and more vets to go through training. Ireland offering only 82 places to study veterinary medicine is a significant barrier to the development of the industry. It will also impact how small practices are going to develop. Our major worry is that the large animal practices will really suffer. This will be the significant driver in this area. More people will be attracted to the small animal practices than to the larger ones, and this will have a significant knock-on effect on our credibility as the premier food-producing nation in the world.
This is, therefore, a major problem and for this reason we must move to act fast. There is potential in the system to have a second veterinary school. I mention Munster in particular in this regard because there are many bovine, pig and horse units in the province. We have so much potential down there. A second veterinary school there would be a counterbalance to what we have in the UCD model. We must have movement on this new college. University College Cork, UCC, has great potential in this regard and should be considered as the location. I realise that University of Limerick, UL, is also interested. Looking at County Cork alone, the figures in this context are frighteningly large. There are nearly 13,500 farmers in the county. Of these, 4,500 are in dairy farming, while there are also pig and poultry units. Equally, the cluster of veterinary practices in the county could cater for the practical work required in training vets. Places like Riverview Veterinary Group and Abbeyville Veterinary Hospital, for example, have the potential to be a part of this endeavour when it comes to veterinary practices. We need movement on this issue. The sector needs this to happen. Without a flow of new vets being trained here, we will not reach our capabilities and this will be a significant drawback for our society.
I thank the Senator for raising this issue. I am taking this Commencement matter on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Harris, who is attending a Cabinet meeting.
The Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science does not place a quota on the number of places on veterinary medicine courses offered by higher education institutions.
As such, the number of places provided each year is determined by the institutions themselves in line with their capacity.
However, in light of Funding the Future, the funding and reform policy framework for higher education, which specifically identifies skills needs as a priority when expanding provision of higher education, the Higher Education Authority, HEA, recently sought expressions of interest from higher education institutions interested in building capacity in dentistry, pharmacy, medicine, nursing and veterinary from the academic year 2024-25 or 2025-26. This process was designed to respond swiftly to national skills needs, as outlined by the Senator, and expressions of interest were sought from institutions with the capability to expand existing courses or offer new programmes in these areas. Expression of interest is the first stage of a two-part selection process. On receipt of the expressions of interest, the HEA, with the support of the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, will shortlist expressions that show evidence that an institution has the potential to build capacity in the identified discipline in the specified timeframe.
The HEA has informed the Department that 39 expressions of interest have been received across the five disciplines. Of these, 20 have proposed the delivery of new courses and 19 are proposing to expand on existing courses in the selected disciplines. Overall, responses represent a rapid, nationwide engagement with the call, with expressions of interest in developing new courses in the areas of pharmacy and veterinary from all four provinces. The HEA is currently reviewing applications with a view to moving to the second stage of the assessment process, which will involve a review by an expert panel. Panels may be comprised of representatives from professional or regulatory bodies, international experts, and representatives from the HEA, the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, the Department of Health and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, as appropriate. Applications are due by Monday, 16 January 2023. I understand the HEA has been in contact with the relevant institutions to advise them of the next steps.
My real worry here is that we are just going to expand the service. At the moment, UCD, in the middle of Dublin city, provides the veterinary courses for Ireland. If you look at the actual demographics, particularly for the bovine population, the majority are in Munster. We need a geographical spread of placements when it comes to veterinary colleges. I would be concerned if the Department was looking just to expand. We need to look to the future and future-proof this model. We need a new campus with a new university, just to give a little diversity when it comes to the capabilities of these courses. We have small animal and large animal practices. We now need a real focus on where the food industry is going to be and how that is going to develop. I would be of the view that an expansion of the campus is not the key here. We need a new campus and that new campus needs to incorporate large animals as the key focus. If we can do that, we will future-proof our industry going forward. This is a multi-billion euro industry we are talking about here, which will not survive unless we have this line of vets going forward. The new campus scenario has to be top of the agenda. I would be very disappointed if we came back with an expansion.
As I said, there are expressions of interest from the four provinces with regard to providing new courses. As the Senator will understand, this also relates to workforce planning requirements. There are significant practical elements and placement requirements as part of veterinary medicine programme provision, including appropriate laboratory facilities to ensure these courses meet the necessary standards of the Veterinary Council of Ireland. Workforce planning requirements for the veterinary medicine sector require advice from and consultation with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. That consultation is under way. The Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, and the Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins, are committed to this and have made clear that planning for current and future public sector skill needs, including in veterinary medicine, is a priority for their Department. The HEA process that is under way will inform further developments in respect of provision in this key skills area. I will ask the Minister and the Minister of State to keep the Senator informed about this process.
School Admissions
I welcome the Minister of State to the House and thank him for taking the time to be with us. The Minister for Education will be very aware of this issue as I have raised it with her on a number of occasions. Indeed, it is almost one year to the day since she met with Members of the Oireachtas from south Kildare to discuss this issue, following a meeting arranged by the Ceann Comhairle. In fairness, in the following weeks places were found for children, with the addition of extra classes and schools working across applications to ensure nobody was left without a school place or left behind.
Unfortunately, we are here again in another December. For the past two months or so, I and other Oireachtas colleagues in south Kildare have received growing calls from parents who are worried sick that their children will not have a secondary school place this coming September. It is an issue we discussed at a Kildare County Council Oireachtas meeting last week and it is one I have brought up every year for the three years I have been in the Seanad. Parents ask me time and again why, when all these houses were granted planning permission, did nobody think the families coming to live in them would need a secondary school. Did nobody think these families would need facilities?
Of course, there is good news on the horizon, and I acknowledge that, but the new Curragh post-primary school promised and planned for the former Magee Barracks in Kildare town is still at design and planning stage and will not be ready before September 2023. I am hearing that additional prefabricated classrooms will be provided at the Curragh post-primary school. I ask the Minister of State to confirm that in his reply. Many people in Newbridge ask me how their children are expected to access a new school located in Kildare town. Many in the Curragh and its surrounds are asking why it was not the chosen location for their secondary school. I am sure the Minister for Education is still getting questions, both through her Department and directly, about whether she is planning a new further secondary school for the town of Newbridge itself.
Of course, this is all about the children, who see their friends getting places and who are being told they are multiple numbers away from a similar school place. It is about parents who are sick with worry that those same children are upset, are not talking or are asking them why this is. As always, I will bring to the Minister of State the examples of a small number of those parents, who represent so many others who are still worried and still waiting. The first writes:
For continuity on this issue and visibility for all, I wanted to share the latest update regarding the lack of a school place for our 12 year old son in Kildare Town Community School.
12 Places were offered to Pupils in the Town today. Unfortunately, our son was not one of these. My wife called the school earlier who confirmed he is now number 14 on the list.
She thought it's better than being number 30 as he was previously, and asked when round 3 was being sent out, to which the school representative said there may not be any 3rd round and to try and get a place elsewhere!
That goes back to the earlier point about the foresight from the Government to nip this stressful situation in the bud. Another parent in Newbridge writes:
In the Patrician Secondary School he was initially 60 on the list and the last time we rang we were told he’s 42 on the list. That is quite high [we are told] for that school ...
In St Conleths Community College he initially was 72 on the list and we have not been updated as to where he is now on the list as [we were told] the school [is not in a position to tell us what the current position is].
As I previously said we are extremely anxious, upset and worried about this. My son has lived in Newbridge since he was born. He was baptised in Newbridge, received his first holy communion in Newbridge and will make his confirmation in Newbridge. He went to Playschool / Montessori in Newbridge, is in Primary School in Newbridge and all he and we want is for him to attend Secondary school in Newbridge.
It goes on and on. This is a crisis time for so many parents. I hope the Minister of State has some answers today.
I thank the Senator for raising this matter. I am taking it on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Education, who is currently at a Cabinet meeting and unavailable. The Senator has raised this previously and our colleague Senator O'Loughlin has also raised a number of issues in this regard.
For school planning purposes, the Department of Education divides the country into 314 school planning areas and utilises a geographical information system to anticipate school place demand. Information from a range of sources, including child benefit data, school enrolment data and information on residential development activity is used for this purpose. Additionally, Project Ireland 2040 population and housing targets inform the Department's projections of school place requirements.
Projections of post-primary school place requirements are informed by multiple factors, including primary school enrolments in the area and primary to post-primary transfer patterns.
The Department's projections of post-primary school place requirements in Newbridge are showing an increase in the short term with a subsequent gradual decline and the Kildare school planning is showing an increase in the short to medium term. While the Department is aware of increasing pressures and demand for additional school places in Newbridge and Kildare, it is important to note that where enrolment pressures arise, it may not be as a result of lack of accommodation but may be driven by other factors, including duplication of applications where pupils have applied for a place to a number of schools in the area or school of choice where pupils cannot get a place in their preferred school while there are places in other schools in the town or area. Some towns or areas have single-sex schools and while places are available in the school they are not available to all pupils. Another factor is external draw, that is, pupils coming from outside the local area. The Department is working to establish the true extent of any capacity issues across school planning areas through ongoing discussions with the relevant school patrons and authorities. This close engagement will allow the Department to identify at an early stage particular capacity requirements for the forthcoming years which may necessitate further action to that already in train including, where required, the provision of modular accommodation solutions.
As the Senator has acknowledged, the Department is progressing a number of building projects in Newbridge and Kildare under the national development plan, NDP. The most significant project in terms of planned additional capacity is a new 1,000 pupil school building for Curragh Community College which will also provide four classrooms for pupils with special educational needs. Agreement in principle has been reached on the permanent site for this school which will be located on the former Magee Barracks site in Kildare town. In relation to immediate needs and additional capacity, the Department is in discussions with the Department of Defence and Kildare Wicklow Education and Training Board, KWETB, with regard to the refurbishment of an existing building known as block A which is adjacent to the existing school. It is intended this building, once refurbished, will provide for the extra accommodation required to meet the school's needs for September 2023. This provision of a new replacement school and relocation to the Kildare school planning area will provide significant additional capacity in the area.
There are also additional projects approved or under assessment at the following schools in Newbridge. A major project for Patrician Secondary School Newbridge to expand the school to 1,000 pupils is currently at stage 2b of architectural planning, detailed design, the St. Conleth's Community College additional school accommodation application is currently being assessed in the Department, and the Holy Family Secondary School Newbridge additional school accommodation application is being finalised in the Department. In addition, there is also a major project approved for Cross and Passion College Kilcullen, which is to expand the school to cater for 1,000 pupils, and this project is currently at stage 2b, detailed design. Accordingly, I wish to advise the Senator that the Department of Education is aware of increasing pressures and demand for additional post-primary school places in a number of school planning areas across Kildare. I assure the Senator that the Department of Education will continue to engage with the relevant patrons in respect of the post-primary school enrolment position in the area, as well as with local representatives, and that the Department is focused on ensuring that the start of the 2023-24 school year operates as smoothly as possible for all schools and their students.
I thank the Minister of State for his reply. Unfortunately, the first page is cut and pasted from a reply given last year. This is the problem I have in respect of school places in Kildare South. I have been highlighting this for a number of years, as have colleagues in the Oireachtas and on Kildare County Council. Thankfully, we see the results of that on the second page of the reply. There are four schools being either extended or newly built. The problem of course is where pupils will go for 2023 and 2024. For the person who wrote to me this morning, who is in 60th or 72nd place on the list for a school in Newbridge, that is a serious worry when we hear there may be a prefab located in the Curragh post-primary school to accommodate additional needs. What these parents need is certainty. I ask the Minister of State to go back to the Minister for Education and ask her to provide that certainty.
Last year, the Ceann Comhairle organised a meeting with Oireachtas Members which gave a lot of certainty to the parents that something would happen. I raise this matter on a continuous basis, as do other Oireachtas Members. All we need is to assure those people who need a place for 2023 that they will have one. If it is in temporary accommodation, that would be welcome but we need that assurance now. We cannot have parents with their children locked in rooms, which is what is happening at the moment, when their friends have been assured places yet their children are not getting places. That is what this is all about. I ask the Minister of State to take this back to the Minister. Maybe we will get an Oireachtas meeting up and running again and maybe then we will get the assurance those parents want for 2023. I welcome that there is building taking place but it is going to take two to three years. We do not want to be back here again next December.
I assure the Senator that the Department is in discussions with the patrons and stakeholders of the schools in the area with regard to the immediate need for 2023-24, which the Senator has identified, but also for future needs. The Department is progressing additional solutions for Newbridge and Kildare, including the relocation of Curragh Community College to Kildare town, which will provide significant additional capacity. The Department is aware of enrolment pressures for 2023-24 and will continue to liaise with patrons and local representatives in this regard. I will pass on the Senator's concerns to the Ministers. As I said, there can be multiple reasons for enrolment pressures but the Department is working to establish whether there is a requirement for additional provision in the area. It will ensure that any required accommodation solution is put in place as well as continuing to advance the major and additional school accommodation projects that I previously outlined. The priority for the Department is to ensure that there are places available for every student in the next school year. It will continue to engage in this regard.
School Facilities
I thank the Minister of State for taking this matter. I understand the Minister for Education is at the Cabinet. The issue I raise relates to the review of the after-hours use of school buildings. We understand the review is under way and this is most welcome. My questions are about the process of consultation on this review. Who will be consulted? Will the communities where these schools are located be given a say? When will the review be completed? When can we hope to have a stronger and more comprehensive set of guidelines in place from the Department to schools?
We are all aware of great examples where schools have taken the decision to open up their buildings in the afternoons and evenings, at weekends and during holiday periods to local communities for sports, clubs, youth work, adult education and indeed preschool and after-school care. We are also aware of far too many cases where, for whatever reason, school boards have decided they do not need, want or have to open. What is the Department going to do to ensure we better utilise what is in many instances publicly funded infrastructure? Across the vast majority of schools in Ireland we have a network of private patronage that is effectively publicly funded for day-to-day expenses. We will not get into the shortfall for schools' day-to-day expenses. In the main these schools are publicly funded. When the State has invested in a school building, is it acceptable that the Department and the State take a hands-off approach with regard to its out-of-hours use? In the 2017 Department guidelines on out-of-hours use, it is very evident that there is a hands-off approach by the Department. Of course these issues are sensitive but we should not shy away from them. This is not about balancing priorities between schools and communities. The priorities are exactly the same. The number one priority is the education of the pupils, the teachers and the school community.
When a school empties out those same families, teachers and communities should still be able to use the building in some way. I have a particular local interest in this. A number of weeks ago the Minister, Deputy Foley, met a number of us with regard to a parish hall located in Drumcondra. It is the Corpus Christi parish hall on the Home Farm Road in Drumcondra. For decades, the girls' school there used this parish hall for assembly and other activities alongside general community use of the hall. The hall has been closed for almost three years, depriving the girls of indoor PE activities and assembly use. We have had the wonderful news that the Archdiocese of Dublin is planning to vest the parish hall in the school. I do not want to comment on the particulars of the negotiation on the precise use of the hall. However, I do want to reflect that there is a clear desire and demand on the part of the local community that when the needs of the school are met with regard to the hall it is also important to consider the needs of the community. The community has used the hall for many decades. We have a clear set of guidelines from the Department on out-of-hours community use of schools. We need a clear message sent out that schools should be doing more for their local communities and that they can play an even more fruitful role in their communities in terms of the use of school buildings.
I thank Senator Sherlock for raising this matter because it provides me with an opportunity to outline the position on the proposed review of the guidelines on the use of school buildings outside of school hours and the Government's firm commitment on allowing school buildings to be used where possible for community, educational and recreational use outside of school hours.
The Department of Education published the guidelines on the use of school buildings outside of school hours in October 2017. The purpose of these guidelines is to provide guidance to schools on their current arrangements for the use of school buildings outside of school hours. The guidelines outline the various scenarios and inform where consent of the Department of Education is required. The publication of the guidelines followed a programme for Government commitment on the utilisation of primary school buildings for after-school care provision for school-age children to offer more options and flexibility to parents where there is demand for such a service, in partnership with community groups or private providers. In section 10 of the programme for Government, there is another commitment that school buildings must be utilised outside of school hours if they are to remain at the centre of their communities and this usage should include after-school care, homework clubs and other community activities where demand exists.
From various consultations undertaken as part of this process, it was evident that school property owners, school authorities and other stakeholders are, in general, favourably disposed to the use of their school buildings outside of school hours where this is appropriate, and many have considerable experience in doing so. The purpose of the guidelines is to provide guidance to schools on their current arrangements for the use of school buildings outside of school hours or to schools considering putting such arrangements in place. The guidelines also aim to address some of the issues raised by education partners as part of the consultation process and to make schools aware of the types of issues that should be considered when a school wishes to make its facilities available outside of school hours.
It is not intended that these guidelines are exhaustive or prescriptive and it is recognised that the management of school premises at local level is a matter for the relevant school authorities. The Department fully appreciates that decisions to make school premises available ultimately lie with the relevant trustees or property owners following a recommendation from the school authorities, and that the needs of the school, teachers and pupils must be prioritised. However, it is also the case that schools are often at the centre of sustainable communities and there are mutual benefits in building links with the local community, particularly in areas where schools have been newly established and where school facilities lend themselves to community use.
The Minister and her Department are committed to a review of the guidelines. This review will include consultation with relevant stakeholders, including representatives of schools and other Departments which engage with the community and voluntary sectors. The Department has already commenced a series of engagements with other Departments and plans further consultation in the near future. Furthermore, the Department plans to conduct a survey of a sample of schools regarding their experience in engaging with community and recreational groups seeking to use school property. This survey will commence in the first quarter of 2023.
I reiterate that we all share the view that the first priority has to the needs of the school population and community. This is not in doubt. Earlier this year, in response to a parliamentary question, the Minister said the review was to commence in the third quarter of this year. We now hear about a survey in the first quarter of 2023 but we do not hear when we will see completion of the review. We do not hear anything about public consultation on this. Surely the public and local communities will be given an opportunity to have a say.
Notwithstanding the commitment to try to address some of the insurance and security concerns of boards of management, and many of them are genuine and legitimate, there is a failure by the Department to recognise it has a role in maximising the use of its public investment in school buildings. This is what we are speaking about. The State invests a great deal into school buildings but we see only a limited or partial return because the school buildings are closed for so many hours of the day and during the summer.
I again thank the Senator for raising the matter. As already stated, a review is under way with other Departments. The Department intends further consultation in the near future. The intention of the Department is that the review will ensure the guidelines on the use of school buildings outside of school hours are as effective and efficient as possible. It is the intention that the review will assist this process. The feedback received from discussions with the relevant stakeholders and the results of the survey that will commence in the first quarter of 2023 will be used to inform the review of the guidelines. Following the review, and in consultation with school authorities, the guidelines will be updated as necessary and all schools will be notified and encouraged to take on board the changes.
I thank the Minister of State for his time. I also thank Senator Sherlock.
Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 12.08 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 12.30 p.m.
Sitting suspended at 12.08 p.m. and resumed at 12.30 p.m.