Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 3 May 2023

Vol. 293 No. 11

Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters

Cash-for-Gold Outlets

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

I thank the Cathaoirleach for picking this matter. The Minister of State, Deputy Browne, is very welcome. Cash-for-gold are outlets where an individual can go in, present gold for sale, get it valued and get the cash there and then. There is no question asked of the bona fides of the person who is selling, and where they got the gold from. I appreciate there has been a huge fall in burglary rates, and I have confirmed that with An Garda Síochána. When we compare 2019 to 2022, it is certainly significant. However, this idea that you can convert gold into cash is striking as an easy way to facilitate criminality, and to get easy money at the expense of individuals and their homes. Back in 2012, the former Minister Alan Shatter commissioned a report.

From that report it came out that the pawnbrokers operate to rules. The individual coming in with goods to obtain cash has to have proof of identity. Also, the outlets themselves have to be registered. That stands in stark contrast, however, to the cash-for-gold outlets.

There was a further public consultation in 2015, and the outcome of that was that particular safeguards should be put in place. That was written into the programme for Government in 2016. In 2019, the then Minister, Deputy Charlie Flanagan, was asked about the progress on any legislation or governance over cash-for-gold outlets and he informed the House that the legislation was being drafted, that it would create a licensing regime for these outlets and that there would be a requirement of traceability on the individuals presenting with items to sell.

In 2012 the estimate was that there were 124 outlets throughout the country. By 2019, that number was unknown. In the intervening period, however, the online space has opened up. I did a workaround on the Internet and saw that there are outlets where people just have to register their name and your address, they are sent an envelope that insures the contents of that envelope, and when that is sent in, a valuation is drawn up. They get a phone call for that valuation and they are sent the cash if they agree with it or else they are sent their goods back.

The problem is we do not know who is behind those outlets. They are not registered. For some of them, there is a contact address. It is generally the case that the bag goes to a PO box, but there is a contact address and a mobile number on a couple of the online links. It is just a mobile telephone number. We have no idea who these people are. We do not know that this is not a source of criminality. We know there are communities under significant pressure and individuals in communities under terrible pressure for drug debts and all sorts of intimidation. It strikes me, therefore, that we absolutely need to know who is dealing what in gold, particularly at a time of difficulty. We get warnings from the Garda in the run-up to Christmas for people to be especially vigilant, but here we have this open sore, by the looks of things, of places where commodities belonging to anyone, without verification, can be traded in for cash.

Where are we with the legislation in this regard and the governance of these businesses? Do we have anything on the horizon or any progress in that regard?

An Cathaoirleach

Before I call on the Minister of State, in the Gallery today we have Aisling Heapes, who is a fifth year student in Kilrush Community School. She is here on work experience with Senator Garvey. She is very welcome. I hope she enjoys her stay in Leinster House.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice (Deputy James Browne)

On behalf of the Minister, Deputy Harris, I thank Senator Seery Kearney for raising this very important matter around safeguards and statutory provisions in respect of the oversight of cash-for-gold outlets. I assure the Senator that a number of key legislative provisions are in operation to militate against criminality in this regard. More generally, Irish law relating to the sale and purchase of scrap metal is a matter for the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and arises under waste management legislation. Waste management regulations impose an obligation on businesses to apply due diligence measures to ensure the traceability of any waste purchased, including scrap metal.

The Criminal Justice (Money Laundering and Terrorist Financing) Act 2010, as amended, places a number of obligations on the designated persons to guard against their businesses or services being used for money laundering or terrorist financing purposes. As the Senator may be aware, the anti-money laundering compliance unit is responsible for supervising designated non-financial businesses, including cash-for-gold businesses, for compliance with their anti-money laundering and counter-financing of terrorism obligations under the 2010 Act, as amended. Compliance with relevant obligations is monitored by the anti-money laundering compliance unit through a variety of means. Monitoring includes inspections, both announced and unannounced, by regulatory investigators who have been appointed as authorised officers under the 2010 Act, as amended. In addition, the regulatory investigator may be accompanied by other authorised officers, by a member of An Garda Síochána or by such other persons as the authorised officer reasonably considers appropriate.

I note these obligations apply only in respect of transactions by the person or to the person in cash of at least €10,000, whether in one transaction or a series of linked transactions. The Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001 provides for offences of theft that would, based on the broad nature of the offence, include scrap metal and catalytic converter theft. The 2001 Act also includes offences relating to the handling of stolen property and possession of stolen property. Maximum sentences of ten years are provided for in the case of offences of theft and handling of stolen property, while maximum sentences of five years are provided for the offence of the possession of stolen property.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

I thank the Minister of State. We do not appear to have specific licensing. I do not quite know how to respectfully refer to it but while provisions have been cited, none of them reflect what was committed to by the Minister for Justice in 2019, which was a licensing of these specific outlets. With due respect to whoever wrote the Minster of State's notes, the idea the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications is overseeing people walking in with cash, which has probably been taken from another individual or his or her home and turned into cash, is a little far-fetched.

Senator Rónán Mullen

And grandad's ring is not scrap metal.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

Exactly. We clearly need a very bespoke response to this because it is an open goal for criminality that we need to close down. It is a gap in our law that needs to be rectified.

Deputy James Browne

I again thank the Senator for raising this important matter. I assure her a range of statutory provisions are in existence to combat crime in this sector. Officials from my Department remain involved in the metal theft forum, a collaborative working group between stakeholders and industry representatives to improve information sharing around the issue of metal theft. I hear the Senator's concerns around the very specific situation of cash-for-gold outlets. It is about what may be presented there, as opposed to scrap metal, that may be used and the undertaking given in 2019 around licensing of specific outlets. I will certainly bring those specific concerns back to the Minister, Deputy Harris, and ask him to respond in a little more detail to the Senator.

Educational Disadvantage

Senator Lynn Ruane

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Education, Deputy Byrne, to the Chamber. I raise the issue of the lack of support provided to children and young people in disadvantaged communities. Such support would allow them to engage in curriculum learning. The DEIS system naturally tends to focus on what is required in schools as regards additional educational support. However, in many disadvantaged schools, there is a substantial need for other qualified professionals to support pupils, such that they can engage meaningfully in their curriculum learning. These are the children who are falling through the gaps and the ones for whom intergenerational poverty, trauma and deprivation will persist.

Professor Selina McCoy and postdoctoral research fellow Dr. Eamonn Carroll, both of the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, argued in a 2022 article that critical metrics in Irish education have remained stubbornly persistent, including the gap in school completion rates between DEIS and non-DEIS schools. They pointed to the findings of Educational Research Centre analysis that highlighted that children experiencing socioeconomic disadvantage were more likely to lose out on learning because of alcohol and drug use, being absent from school and not being attentive in class compared with their majority peers. In addition, they were found likely to have fewer educational resources at home and less likely to aspire to progress in their education.

While schools rightly welcome their DEIS clarification and the additional educational resources it can bring, many DEIS schools experience acute challenges within their student body that simply cannot be met through traditional educational supports. This might be a pre-existing psychological or physical trauma that a child comes to school with because of which he or she is simply unable to access his or her education on a consistent basis. This, of course, impacts the child or children in question but it can also manifest itself in significant disruptions for their classmates and the broader school community.

Before curriculum learning can begin for many children in these schools, their immediate needs must first be met. This may require psychological or sociological support or additional minding, nurturing, caring or feeding. These schools need additional targeted support to meet their students and communities’ needs. Equalisation in Irish education, where there is equality in outcome as well as opportunity, can only happen once this disparity is recognised. DEIS in its current form can only go so far in realising this change.

In their 2022 article, Professor McCoy and Dr. Carroll advised that educational inequality is a systematic phenomenon which must be addressed structurally and not just in the classroom. School staff can only do so much in trying to overcome what happens outside the classroom for their pupils, where children are living in poverty, their parents are in addiction, their home is a hotel room or they have been waiting months or years for access to therapeutic supports or mental health services. In recent months, I have been working with St. Aidan’s Senior National School in Brookfield on this issue with one of the brilliant school staff members, Dallas Hartland. In St. Aidan’s and many schools like it, over one quarter of pupils experience significant trauma annually. It is hard to comprehend how common this is for children in these schools compared with those who might be called "normal" children in Ireland. They are two vastly different lived experiences and there are two vastly different educational experiences as a result.

I raise this matter because every year politicians celebrate and advocate for DEIS status for schools. I come from a community where I see what is needed in addition to DEIS. It feels as if the idea of DEIS has become somewhat diluted and it is not reaching the children who need the most help.

Minister of State at the Department of Education (Deputy Thomas Byrne)

I am happy to speak on this issue. It is almost 18 years to the day since the then Fianna Fáil Minister for Education and Science, Mary Hanafin, established the Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools, DEIS, programme. Disadvantage occurs throughout our communities and schools but I believe education is the great leveller, and we must do all that we can in order to support all students and young people accessing education in its fullest sense. In this respect, the Department provides a wide range of supports to all schools, DEIS and non-DEIS, to support the inclusion of all students and address barriers to students achieving their potential.

Supplementing the universal supports available to all schools, the DEIS programme is a key policy initiative of the Department to address concentrated educational disadvantage at school level in a targeted and equitable way across the primary and post-primary sector. I am very conscious of the benefits of the DEIS programme, to which the Senator alluded. Analysis has shown that since the programme began, it has helped to close the gap in achievement between schools serving the highest levels of educational disadvantage and those serving populations with little or no disadvantage. It has provided children who come to education at a disadvantage with an equitable opportunity to achieve their potential in education.

This year, the Department will spend approximately €180 million providing additional supports to schools in the DEIS programme. This includes an additional €32 million allocated to extend the programme from last September, meaning the programme now includes over 1,200 schools and supports approximately 240,000 students. This means one in four of all students are now supported in the programme.

The DEIS programme targets the highest levels of resources at those primary schools with the highest levels of concentrated educational disadvantage through according DEIS urban band 1 status. Schools in this band receive a more beneficial staffing schedule. Class sizes have been reduced in DEIS urban band 1 schools in recent budgets. This means that this year the staffing schedule for DEIS urban band 1 vertical schools is 20:1; DEIS urban band 1 junior schools is 18:1; and DEIS urban band 1 senior schools is 22:1. Urban band 1 schools receive a DEIS grant which reflects their high level of concentrated disadvantage and receive priority access to the support of the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS. DEIS urban band 1 schools are also included in the home-school community liaison scheme and have access to the school completion and schools meals programmes.

Last year, the Department announced the extension of the DEIS programme to benefit 361 schools. This included 79 new and existing DEIS primary schools which were included in DEIS urban band 1 for the first time and this year received an increased allocation of support.

This means the highest levels of support under the DEIS programme are now provided to 306 primary schools.

Schools were identified for inclusion in the programme through the application of the refined DEIS identification model. The development of this model involved an extensive body of work by the DEIS technical group to identify concentrated levels of disadvantage in schools. The model used the Pobal HP deprivation index and took into consideration the significant educational disadvantage experienced by Traveller and Roma learners and by students residing in direct provision and emergency homeless accommodation.

Senator Lynn Ruane

The Minister of State indicated that the gap in educational achievement has narrowed. In fact, that is true only in respect of specific categories and metrics, in which we see a slight narrowing. My fear is that without an adequate review of DEIS that targets the children who need it most, and if we start framing many different schools, whatever bands they are in, as DEIS schools, the statistics will be altered such that we are not capturing the poorest and the most well off. In the case of access programmes working with schools in Tallaght, for example, they are working with the best performing schools in the area even though those schools may be disadvantaged. When we start categorising so many different schools as being within DEIS, we may be working with some of the better performing schools within a disadvantaged area. This completely skews the statistics such that the poorest children in DEIS schools do not get what they need by way of occupational therapy, trauma support and so on. It is not true to say the gap is narrowing.

I have a specific question the Minister of State might put to the Minister, Deputy Foley. Regarding the consultation with relevant stakeholders, the reply to a recent parliamentary question does not map out how that consultation is going to happen and what it will look like. Will the Minister of State seek an answer from the Department on that?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I will take the points the Senator raised back to the Minister. I do not doubt the genuineness of her contributions, but nor do I doubt the genuineness of politicians around the country seeking DEIS status for schools in their area. In my constituency, two schools in the same village were added to the DEIS programme last year. It is extremely obvious from the Pobal maps that this is a disadvantaged area. The colour of the map leaves no doubt that the status is required. Those children are entitled, as is every child in the country, to the level of supports they need. Nobody has a monopoly on wisdom in this area. People want supports for disadvantaged children right across the country. The scheme acknowledges there are different categories of disadvantage and it provides for that.

The provision of therapies is a separate issue we need to address. I agree with the Senator that we need to put in place specific therapies, particularly in special schools. It is not a bad idea to start with the most disadvantaged schools and put in place psychotherapy, occupational therapy and whatever therapies are needed. We have made huge progress in this country. The DEIS programme did not exist 20 years ago. We have the highest level of educational attainment in the world.

Senator Lynn Ruane

The programme exists because it was a campaign issue at the time.

An Cathaoirleach

The time is up.

Senator Lynn Ruane

All the education forums set up to address educational equality were disbanded in order that the Labour Party could announce a DEIS programme that has not done anything.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator had an opportunity to speak and the Minister of State has replied. She is entitled to raise the issue again at a later date. We must move on.

Environmental Policy

Senator Regina Doherty

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, for coming to the House. I appreciate that the issue I am raising is not directly under his remit but I would be grateful for his assistance on it within his Department. The problem of abandoned vehicles has the potential to affect people living on every housing estate, back road and boreen. It has an impact in every part of the country. Vehicles lying idle on our roads are not just a safety hazard; they are rightly recognised as an environmental and financial scourge. There is a cost not just to the pockets of the State and the individuals concerned but also for the planet.

Abandoned vehicles are causing no end of issues in my neck of the woods, and not just because they are an eyesore. In one instance, there is a health and safety hazard. A gentleman called Paddy, whom I have come to know well, uses a wheelchair and cannot get access to the beach. This is not a new issue. We have been talking about it for years. Looking at the Statute Book, legislation was passed donkey's years ago, in the 1980s, when I was only a child, which attempted to deal with this issue. I refer to the Road Traffic (Removal, Storage and Disposal of Vehicles) Regulations 1983.

It is on the Statute Book, but it is nobody’s responsibility. It is falling between a number of stools.

I am not just talking about how long it takes to get rid of an abandoned car, and it takes an awful lot longer than it should or than anybody would like it to. I am talking about the co-operation between the relevant authorities, which, in my experience in the past couple of months, does not seem to happen. I will provide an example. It was recently reported to my office that a car was abandoned on the street in Skerries, in Fingal County Council’s remit. Anybody who knows Skerries knows that it is a beautiful little town. It is full of narrow streets and laneways. Some of them lead down to the beach. It is a gorgeous little town. On this particular street, the car was becoming a hazard for everybody on the street, but particularly for one gentleman, Paddy, because it was impeding his access to the waterfront walkway that he normally enjoys every single day. That is the safety hazard part.

Another incident was reported to the office recently. It involved a car sitting on the riverbank in a secluded area of the Ward River Valley Regional Park. It had been hit by a tree and was completely destroyed. It was pointed out by the gentleman who discovered it that the car was not just full of harmful toxins that were now seeping into the river basin, it was really an environmental pit.

The cost of scrapping a car is significant. Before I get to that, however, I want to talk about the key point here. When people or politicians see an abandoned car, in many cases we report the matter to our local authority. My local authority is Fingal County Council. I reported both of these matters to Fingal County Council and was informed that it is not responsible because the number plates are still on the cars. I was directed to An Garda Síochána. I was informed by An Garda Síochána that responsibility lies with the environmental section of Fingal County Council. I get the impression, and I do not say this lightly, that what we are being told is that if the cars did not have number plates, somebody somewhere would be able to act, which is nearly incentivising me to go and take the bloody number plates off the cars so that I can get somebody to act. It should not be that way. There is no process between our local authorities and An Garda Síochána. To be honest – I am not trying to be smart – that is not good enough. I know both organisations are incredibly busy.

We need a process and direction from the Department. Perhaps it could be a Venn diagram approach whereby there would be an overlap and shared responsibility. They should make sure that when something is reported, they report it directly to the owner and give the owner a specific amount of time with penalties attached to it to remove the car or make it safe. If the owner does not do that, the State should remove the car given the environmental impact it is causing, the safety issues, in most cases, and just the plain old pain in the butt that particularly housing estates experience by seeing these.

I put details of this matter up on Facebook yesterday and somebody pointed me to the national car test centre just off the M50. I went to the site, and there are cars upon cars. I would say there are about 40 abandon cars. Yet, it is nobody’s responsibility. I ask the Minister of State to help me make it somebody’s responsibility by encouraging joined-up thinking on the part of An Garda Síochána and our local authorities.

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Malcolm Noonan)

I thank the Senator for raising the issue. The Minister, Deputy Ryan, and his Department have not been made aware of any deterioration in the situation regarding abandoned vehicles. However, the Minister and I are of the view that it is important that the enforcement bodies stay on top of this matter. The Senator highlighted a significant issue. We have seen considerable improvements in this area since the transposition of the end-of-life vehicle directive into Irish legislation in 2014 and the subsequent adoption of our compliance scheme on the approach to the issue.

With regard to enforcement, section 71 of the Waste Management Act specifically prohibits the abandonment of vehicles on any land and creates an offence for so doing. It also enables local authorities to enter any land upon which vehicles have been abandoned to remove and store such abandoned vehicles. Penalties under the Waste Management Act are substantial and may result in a fine of up to €5,000 and-or a term of imprisonment not exceeding 12 months on foot of a summary conviction. In the case of conviction or on indictment, penalties may rise to fines of up to €15 million and-or a term of imprisonment of up to ten years.

The Road Traffic (Removal, Storage and Disposal of Vehicles) Regulations, which were made pursuant to section 97 of the Road Traffic Act, also give An Garda Síochána powers relating to the removal, storage and disposal of abandoned vehicles.

On the cost to local authorities of removing and storing abandoned vehicles, the vehicles become the property of the local authority if not reclaimed by the registered owner within a period of four weeks. If a registered owner comes forward or is identified, the local authority may then seek reimbursement of the expenditure incurred for removal and storage. It is important to note that the Waste Management (End-of-Life Vehicles) Regulations 2006 impose an obligation on the registered owner of a vehicle to dispose of it at an authorised treatment facility for appropriate treatment and recovery. It is generally not very expensive to do that.

It is hard to comprehend how people would abandon them.

Under these regulations, authorised treatment facilities are obliged to provide for the free take-back of end-of-life vehicles and to issue a certificate of destruction to the registered owners. End-of-Life Vehicles Environmental Services, ELVES, CLG is a not-for-profit company established in 2017 which has been approved as the compliance scheme for the ELV sector in Ireland. The scheme is funded by fees from producer members amounting to approximately €1.7 million per annum. The principal objective of this compliance scheme is the attainment of the national targets as set out in EC Directive 2000/53/EC on end-of-life vehicles. ELVES has also established a fund to assist local authorities with abandoned vehicles.

The success of our approach in this area is demonstrated by the most recently available results, which indicate that in 2020, Ireland achieved a 90% reuse and recycling rate and a 97% recovery and reuse rate for end-of-life vehicles, comfortably meeting EC targets in this regard.

The Department of Transport will continue, as co-chair of the national waste enforcement steering committee, NWESC, to oversee waste enforcement efforts, including those relating to abandoned and end-of-life vehicles, to encourage ongoing collaboration between the local authorities and An Garda Síochána and to develop appropriate policy interventions to specific issues as they may arise. In this regard, the Minister welcomes the ongoing development of the regional multi-agency forums, which were launched by An Garda Síochána in 2020 in association with the Department, the Environmental Protection Agency, the waste enforcement regional lead authorities, and the National TransFrontier Shipment Office. The key objective of these forums is to facilitate a co-ordinated approach to enforcement efforts across the regions in the area of waste and environment-related crime. It should also be noted that the NWESC has identified enforcement of the ELV directive, and more generally the waste metal industry, as a national waste enforcement priority for the period 2022 to 2024.

If it okay with the Senator, I will come back in again on the supplementary question on the specific issue.

Senator Regina Doherty

I am absolutely fascinated that everything the Minister of State has read out exists. I am delighted that it does, but I have to tell the Minister of State that it is not working. I am even more fascinated by the line "The success of our approach in this area is demonstrated by the most recently available results", which do look great but they are not reflected in what we see. There are the two examples just from the past couple of weeks. I am now going to do an audit of abandoned cars in my county, and I will probably ask others to help me to do the same. It is not working. Both of the agencies I went to with the two examples sent me away to the other agency. That does not really instil confidence that all of these are available. I am genuinely pleased they are available because now I have some ammunition to be able to go back to both of them to say they have powers, authorisation and money and to ask why they are ignoring citizens' requests to get rid of abandoned cars. I can guarantee the Minister of State that the two people who own these cars, and we know who they are because they still have the registration numbers of them, have not even been contacted by An Garda Síochána or by Fingal County Council.

When the Minister of State talks about a 90% reuse and recycling rate and a 97% recovery rate, do these relate only to the vehicles recovered? Is there a list of all vehicles that have been reported and about which nothing is known? That to me would be far more worrying. I am grateful for the information provided by the Minister of State but it does force me to get an audit of the abandoned cars in my county.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

If there are specific issues in relation to vehicles such as the number plate having been removed, there are other identifying factors on the vehicle, including the chassis numbers and so on. I believe, however, that 97% is a high level of compliance. It is way beyond the minimum requirement at EU level. The Department is very much on top of it and continues to monitor it. If there are issues specifically, the local authority also has a role. It is critically important they fulfil that role with regard to their duties under the ELV regulations.

In my own experience in my constituency, any time there was an issue with an abandoned vehicle it was dealt with in a very timely manner. I do hope this would be the case throughout the State.

Transport Costs

Senator Fiona O'Loughlin

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chathaoirleach for selecting this Commencement matter. I believe the Minister of State will remain with us to take this matter. I appreciate this. Many Members of this House and of the Lower House, will be aware that public transport is a key issue for me in representing the needs, desires and wants of those I represent in south Kildare. This matter is in the context of Local Link, which is very important for accessibility and for commuters. It will not be a surprise to anyone that I am raising it again to reiterate my firm commitment to the extension of the short hop zone to places such as Newbridge and Kildare, even if it will be under another name.

The short hop zone, in its current form, means that those commuters who live outside the 23 km zone - which basically stops at Sallins in Kildare - and opt to use public transport are completely discriminated against in terms of having a fair fare. With the costs involved, there are a lot of people bypassing an excellent station in Newbridge to go to Sallins, putting a lot more cars on the road, because the fares are much cheaper.

The replacement of the current short hop zone with a zone with a more equitable radius of 50 km was supported unanimously by the Members of this House in a motion that I put forward. Thankfully, I was also successful in getting the extension adopted as part of Fianna Fáil policy. Under the current regime, the cost of a return ticket from Newbridge to Dublin Heuston today is €16.90. That is just from station to station. The cost of travelling from Sallins, the next station on the line, is only €7.20. That is a huge 57% difference in price between stations that are just 12.3 km from one another by rail. It is an issue that I have brought to the attention of the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, with whom I have been working on the matter. I have also been dealing with the CEO of the National Transport Authority, NTA, Ms Anne Graham, over the last few years.

Like many of us, I was delighted to attend the NTA Oireachtas briefing in Buswells Hotel on Thursday and to meet with Ms Graham and her senior team to discuss the new national fare strategy. I believe the strategy will go a long way towards levelling the playing field for commuters in areas such as Newbridge and Kildare town and will provide a better deal for commuters. I understand the fares will not be announced until June, so I stress again that we must use the period between now and then to keep saying that our fares need to be affordable, accessible and transparent. This is key decision-making time.

As I understand it, there is going to be a boarding fare and a fare related to the number of kilometres that one travels outside the Dublin city zone. The Dublin city zone will extend to approximately 23 km, which we could say is the present short hop zone. The outer Dublin commuter zone will extend from the edge of the city zone to approximately 50 km from Dublin city centre from O'Connell Street, which is exactly what I had advocated for. It is going to be really important for counties Kildare, Meath, Wicklow and Louth and towns such as Drogheda, Navan, Trim, Enfield, Clane, Prosperous, Newbridge, Kildare, Greystones and Wicklow, which are currently under a huge price disadvantage. From my dealings with councillors across the fringes of the current short hop zone, I know this price inequity is causing serious disquiet in the areas they represent. My immediate concern, of course, is for south Kildare. While I believe the strategy will bring greater equity for commuters, we must consider its impact on our commitments on climate change and supporting sustainable travel. What does the Minister of State believe the positive impact will be of the strategy? Can he provide clarity on the strategy and on fares? When will we have next generation ticketing, which is a very important in terms of the 90-minute zone and replacing the Leap zone?

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I welcome the opportunity to discuss this important issue. I understand that the Senator’s question concerns the new national fares strategy, as she has outlined, and particularly as it affects and pertains to her area of Newbridge in Kildare. I reassure the Senator that the Government is strongly committed to providing a cost-efficient public transport sector, including affordable and accessible public transport services. The Senator mentioned affordable, accessible and transparent fares. That is exactly what we want to achieve.

In this context, a number of measures have been taken to ensure services remain affordable. As part of the programme for Government, we committed to review existing fare structures to ensure that public transport is as accessible as possible, supports the delivery of services and incentivises off-peak travel.

I should clarify that the National Transport Authority has statutory responsibility for the regulation of fares charged to passengers in respect of public transport services provided under public service obligation, PSO, contracts. In this context, on 27 April 2023, the NTA published a new national fares strategy, on which the Senator attended a briefing. The strategy follows the previous implementation of a simplified fares structure for Dublin, which combines elements of distance and equitability between routes and proposes an approach for the rest of Ireland aimed at providing better value, greater transparency, and equality in respect of journey distance.

This new approach will apply to fares outside the Dublin metropolitan area for public service obligation, PSO, bus and rail services provided by the NTA under contracts with bus operators and Iarnród Éireann. It will complement the planned roll-out of significant changes to public transport networks in rural and urban areas, such as BusConnects and Connecting Ireland. I am advised that no changes to the existing fare structure will be introduced until later in 2023, after a fare determination process, and any such changes will be dependent on the availability of necessary Exchequer funding. It is hoped that the new strategy will help encourage existing passengers and new users to use public transport more by implementing a fairer and easier to understand structure.

In relation to the Senator’s query about the impact on commuters from Newbridge and Kildare, I am advised that the newly created Dublin commuter zone in the strategy will apply to these areas, meaning that for travel from the Dublin commuter zone into the more central Dublin city zone, or vice versa, the lower of the following fares will apply, either the national fare structure, that is, boarding charge plus an incremental fare based on the straight-line distance between the start and end stop of the journey, or the flat Xpresso Dublin city fare plus an incremental fare based on the straight-line distance between the start of the journey and the Dublin city zone boundary. This approach will ensure that the cheapest fare is made available for passengers and will help alleviate boundary issues between the national and city fare structures.

For short distance trips crossing the Dublin city zone boundary, such as Greystones to Bray or Newbridge to Sallins, passengers will get the benefit of the national fare structure and the associated lower fare reflective of the short distance travelled. However, for longer distance journeys, for example Newbridge to O’Connell Street, passengers will benefit from the flat fare element within the city facilitating longer distances of travel at a cheaper fare. For journeys entirely within the Dublin commuter zone, the standard national fare structure will apply.

Senator Fiona O'Loughlin

I thank the Minister of State. His reply is certainly signalling good news for commuters from Newbridge in Kildare and for those in the 23 km to 50 km zone. I accept that there has to be a budgetary cost for this but I certainly will not be shy in looking for it. It is incredibly important that we support our commuters for all sorts of reasons but particularly in respect of climate change and trying to make travel more sustainable.

We still have some key issues. What I will be pressing the Minister of State to bring back to the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, is that we need surety and clarity on the decision in respect of fares. We also need surety on the 90-minute element. For those who use the train to come in to the city centre, it is incredibly important that they are able to travel anywhere within the outer regions of Dublin to avail of that. I certainly appreciate all the efforts that are being made by Government.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

Again, the Senator's efforts in highlighting this have been commendable. To support the objective of ensuring this equity, under budget 2023 some €563 million of funding has been secured for the PSO and Local Link services to provide State operators under contract by the NTA. This has been seen and felt right across the country. Funding was also provided for continuation of the 20% average fare reduction on PSO services and the young adult card on PSO and participating commercial services.

As the Senator is aware, at times inconsistencies in the existing fare structure have led to frustration among passengers. As such, the Minister for Transport has welcomed the publication of the NTA's national fare strategy, the implementation of which is intended to bring many benefits, including a fare structure, significant reduction in variability of fares charged, a clear structure that is easy to understand, a simplified fare structure for implementing fare determination charges, and a reduction in existing boundary issues, which is the matter the Senator has raised this afternoon.

On the issue of surety and clarity, that is what we wish to provide and I will take those messages back to the Minister and Minister of State on the Senator's behalf.

Motor Fuels

Senator Rónán Mullen

I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House to take my Commencement matter. I know it is not directly within his brief; it has more to do with ethanol reform than electoral reform.

To the extent that vintage, classic and veteran cars might be affected, maybe it comes in some way under the heading of heritage.

I have spoken on many occasions about the fact that successive Governments have often taken what I think is a self-defeating approach to new measures aimed combating climate change. Measures often almost seem to be designed to rub people up the wrong way or to punish them for living their everyday lives as much as to reduce emissions, etc. This only serves in my view to reduce public support for new policies designed to help the environment which, as opinion polls have often shown, is very low among the public.

Another example of what I am talking about occurred recently when the regulations were published to move Ireland's standard blend of unleaded petrol from E5 to E10. As the Minister of State will be aware, these figures of "5" and "10" refer to the percentage of bioethanol which is blended into the petrol. An increased percentage results in lower carbon emissions, or so we are told. This has already been rolled out in 15 other EU member states. However, there is a big problem which I do not believe the Government has properly addressed so far, which is that many vehicles cannot or should not use the E10 blend, either because their engines were not designed for it or because their engines are susceptible to damage by the E10 blend.

In a press release on 25 February last announcing the change, the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, rather blithely stated: "E10 will mean that no vehicle changes are needed to get immediate results for the environment. " He also stated: "All vehicles can operate on an E10 petrol blend." That is not the case. In the very same press release, the Minister referred to a UK Government website which lists a range of makes and models that cannot handle the E10 blend. These include: Ford Mondeos manufactured as recently as 2007; a range of Renaults from as recently as 2003; nine separate models of Volkswagen from 2005; and Fiat Puntos and Fiat Bravos from the same period. I say that these are relatively recent years because many people drive older cars. Obviously, these are not salubrious or high-powered cars. They are standard models used by ordinary people. I do not know, to be honest, how many of these cars are still in use in Ireland but given how common these car makes are, there must be a significant number. I was approached by a person who drives a 2006 Lexus JS300, which, he told me at the time, is one of the few cars that cannot run on E10. This is according to both Lexus and the EU.

We also have the issue that the E10 blend can be damaging, as I have said, to vintage, veteran or classic cars - the older cars - because the higher level of bioethanol absorbs more water into the engine of these cars causing them to corrode. The Irish Vintage Scene magazine has a piece about this issue on its website. It states: "it will corrode all traditional fuel lines made of brass, copper or rubber, unless the rubber has been upgraded to deal with unleaded fuels. It also degrades aluminium in carburettors and pistons." Ominously, the Minister stated last February: "All vehicle owners and operators are required to maintain their vehicles to operating and roadworthy standards." In other words, it is tough luck on the owners of vintage or veteran cars. If they have a problem with this, they will have to fork out to get their cars upgraded. That is not good enough. It shows a trend of tending to penalise ordinary people rather than working to get their support for climate change measures. If there is a solution, we should be hearing much more about it from the Government.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

We were talking about this outside the Chamber earlier. I have family members who have classic cars - Renaults and Ford Anglias. It is something that I have great affection for.

The move to E10 this year is one of several transport measures that will achieve a 50% reduction in transport emissions by 2030. Details of the move were set out in the Renewable Fuels for Transport Policy Statement November 2021. The latter outlines the pathway to the achieve climate action plan targets and European obligations concerning sustainability and greenhouse gas reduction criteria for renewable energy in transport. The policy sets out that the renewable transport fuel blending obligation rate - provided for under Part 5A of the National Oil Reserves Agency Act 2007 - will be achieved through increasing the biofuel blending rate to E10, 10% ethanol, and B20, 20% biodiesel equivalent, as set out in Climate Action Plan 2023, with an interim target of 2025 in respect of both.

Renewable transport fuels such as bioethanol remain a core transitional technology relied upon for the medium-term reduction of greenhouse gas emissions in the road transport sector, accounting for 1.08 megatonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent of the transport sector decarbonisation target to be achieved by 2030 under the climate action plan of 2023.

In 2022, approximately 307 million litres – 9.6 PJ – of biofuel was placed on the market. Following statutory consultation on the draft regulations and the consideration of responses and stakeholder feedback, the Minister for Transport made regulations to move to E10 petrol through specifying the minimum percentage volume of ethanol to be blended with petrol placed on the market by sale or otherwise in the State by renewable transport fuel obligation account holders and provide for the move to the E10 – containing up to 10% bioethanol – petrol standard in Ireland. The regulations will be fully operational by 1 July 2023 and will be kept under review by the Minister in the context of the development and implementation of the renewable transport fuel policy.

Moving to E10 will result in an immediate climate-change mitigation measure using the existing vehicle fleet. Since 2009, E10 petrol, as standard, has been rolled out across 15 European countries, as well as in the US and Australia. All petrol vehicles can operate on an E10 petrol blend and it is safe to do so. In some vehicles from before 2011, and predominantly from before 2003, the sustained use of E10 may result in more frequent maintenance – of engine seals and hoses, for example – but it does not mean they cannot use it. In countries where E10 and higher ethanol blends are used widely for a prolonged period, there is no evidence of issues. All vehicle owners and operators are required to maintain their vehicles to operating and roadworthiness standards.

Maintaining an E5 petrol grade is not in line with the policy objective under the climate action plan for E10 by 2025. Suppliers do not have the storage or distribution systems to supply both E5 and E10 petrol grades or a higher octane petrol grade. After 1 July, when the regulations will be fully operational, the specialist supply of E5 will still be possible in the market if the demand emerges, but such supply will just not be eligible for certificates under the renewable transport fuel obligation.

The annual decrease in the number of petrol cars, along with the increased uptake of zero-emission vehicles, is likely to reduce the number of affected vehicles even further over the next decade. I acknowledge the Senator is referring to classic and vintage cars. Ireland's vehicle fleet is predominantly diesel, amounting to 63%, and among the 1 million petrol vehicles there is a very small proportion of older vehicles, amounting to 2.4%, including vintage, and less than 1% classic.

To ensure public awareness of the change, the Department of Transport is continuing to run an E10 public information campaign, through advertising at forecourts and on print, radio, digital and social media platforms. The website www.gov.ie/E10 is the main point of reference for further information and will continue to be in advance of the move to E10. Further information concerning individual vehicle types can be obtained in operating manuals and on vehicle manufacturers' websites, or inside the fuel cap of newer vehicles.

Senator Rónán Mullen

I do not blame the Minister of State for having to deliver this answer. It is very unsatisfactory. The Government is persisting in echoing what I believe was the erroneous statement of the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, that vehicles would not be affected. Is there an element of spin in saying it is safe to use E10? Nobody is saying the cars that do not take E10 are going to blow up but the additional ethanol would destroy aluminium and rubber fuel lines. To say it is simply a matter more frequent maintenance is erroneous. In other countries, provision was made for the limited availability of the E5 blend for those who need it for older and vintage cars. Why could that not be done here? Even if there were additional fuel duties on the E5, it could work. The supply should not be closed off completely. To pretend people's engines will not be damaged is simply wrong. Is it yet another case of saying, "To hell with you if you are in the small minority who will be affected because we are not going to bend." If that is the attitude, it is not going to improve people's attitude towards climate-mitigation measures.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

That is not the case. Of the 77 responses from the consultation on the move to E10, more than 60 were received from classic car owners or enthusiasts in classic vehicle clubs. Many of the respondents were supportive of the move to E10. There probably are issues. In this regard, I mentioned possible corrosion. There is still an opportunity owing to there still being a limited supply of E5. Additives can be put in fuel to mitigate the potential impact. There is no longer-term damage to-----

Senator Rónán Mullen

That was not part of the Minister of State's official answer, though.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

There is an additive that can be used, and there is a public awareness campaign. It is important to engage. The experience in other countries has not been negative.

Greenways Provision

Senator Seán Kyne

I thank the Cathaoirleach's office for choosing this matter. I welcome the Minister of State. This is down for answer by the Minister of Transport but, of course, it could equally have been put down for answer by the Minster of State because it relates to issues of heritage, even though greenways fall under the remit of the Department of Transport.

We can agree on the benefits of greenways for their tourism potential, local recreation and the possibilities of commuting to work in circumstances where they are located close to a large town or city. They take cars off the road and reduce the number of car journeys. They are generally good for people's health. They are also generally positively viewed and sought after. I am a big supporter of greenway roll-out and their potential for communities. However, they can be viewed with concern by some people close to the routes or indeed by planned routes. I attended a public consultation and information session organised by Galway County Council and Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, in the Oranmore Lodge recently in respect of the roll-out of the Ballinasloe to Galway greenway. I have been contacted by a former member of this House, Ms Fidelma Healy Eames, regarding the proposed route at the Middle Third, Maree, Oranmore. The concern locally is that the proposed greenway may interfere with Kilcaimin Bay and cause significant damage to an area that is protected under European habitat directives as a special area of conservation, SAC, special protection area, SPA, and a maritime protection area, MPA. There is concern that the greenway will have an impact on the SAC. This is home to and a feeding ground for an extensive range of birds. There is also concern that it is not suitable due to rising sea levels and erosion, which could cause seaweed to be strewn all over the greenway, resulting in it being dangerous to cycle on and being closed for a considerable part of the year. That is the case with the road at present which is often strewn with seaweed.

There is also concern from people currently living on the shore that they will not have access to the shore in the future. What importance and priority would the Minister of State place on protecting the environment or SAC, SPA, or MPA above and beyond the benefits of the greenway and the construction of the greenway? That is a concern locally. In general, people are supportive of greenways, but there are pinch points. There are areas of concern whether it be for farmers, homeowners in any place that would be considered for the construction of a greenway. I believe they are hugely beneficial. I welcome the roll-out of greenways in general across the country. This has not happened without opposition, and we have to respect and take on board people's views as best we can. We are never going to get unanimity or total buy-in regarding cycleways, but where they can be improved through liaison and consultation we can get a better result, that needs to be looked at. A particular issue relating to Kilcaimin Bay has been highlighted. I look forward to the Minister of State's reply.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I thank the Senator for the opportunity to discuss this issue on behalf of the Minister for Transport. The safeguarding of environment and natural habitats is a hugely important issue. The Government is conscious of fulfilling our statutory obligations in this regard, as well as being committed to the EU biodiversity strategy for 2030. As set out in the strategy for the future development of the national and regional greenways, greenway routes require environmental assessment in their planning and design and are constructed in compliance with the requirements of Irish and European law, including but not limited to, EU Directive 2014/52/EU. As the approving authority under the public spending code, TII is responsible for funding the planning, design and construction of greenways. TII requires that TII-funded greenway projects are delivered in accordance with its project management guidelines.

Phase 3, the design and environmental evaluation of an eight-stage process of the project manual for greenway projects, PMG, ensures that projects are carried out in compliance with all appropriate environmental directives and legislation. The form of statutory process may include, but is not limited to the following: local authority own Part 8 Development Section 177 AE of the Planning and Development Act 2000, as amended, and appropriate assessment and environmental impact assessment. Projects are assessed for environmental impacts and any necessary ameliorative changes are incorporated into the scheme and design for a greenway.

The relevant local authority will conduct the appropriate assessment screening and environmental impact assessments as required.

In relation to the Senator’s specific query regarding the proposed development of the greenway in Maree, Oranmore, County Galway, I have been provided with the following summary. Some sections of the route in the Maree area near Kilcaimin Bay are constrained due to the existing limited cross-section of the terrain. The section of the route near Maree, Oranmore, can be viewed on route drawings which are available to view and download on the Galway to Athlone cycleway website. The scheme will incorporate a cantilevered boardwalk over Kilcaimin Bay in the Maree area which will provide the adequate width for a segregated greenway while maintaining the existing roadway. The cantilevered boardwalk will be designed in such a manner as to minimise potential environmental impacts on Kilcaimin Bay.

As part of the design and environmental evaluation phase, the entirety of the Galway to Athlone national greenway, including the section of the route near Maree, Oranmore, will be assessed from an environmental point of view. An appropriate assessment report, a Natura 2000 impact statement and a full environmental impact assessment report will be prepared. This will include extensive engagement with relevant stakeholders including the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. These documents will be submitted to An Bord Pleanála as part of a future planning application and it will be for An Bord Pleanála to decide whether the proposed development is in compliance with all appropriate environmental directives and legislation. The Department of Transport is satisfied that this process ensures, first, that any potential environmental impacts are identified early by these rigorous requirements and, second, that any impact that is identified is eliminated or mitigated by design amendments.

Senator Seán Kyne

I thank the Minister of State for his reply. I will bring his response back to those who are concerned about the matter. The Minister of State indicated the cantilevered boardwalk will be designed in such a manner as to minimise potential environmental impacts on Kilcaimin Bay, and that is certainly welcome. As he will be aware, there are huge difficulties in the planning process. Galway is particular as regards its environmental constraints. Whether a house is being built, the N59 road is being upgraded or it was the Galway city bypass back in the day, impacts on the environment scuppered plans and have impacted on people's ability to build, including roads. We cannot have double standards for any project. It is important that if a project has an impact on the bay, we have similar rules for a greenway, a road, people's houses or any other project. I welcome the response. We have a long way to go as regards comprehensive studies relating to this project before it can be realised.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I reassure the Senator that he is correct. We cannot have one project that will deliver an environmental benefit but could potentially be injurious to another environmental objective, namely, our habitats. It is critical that a rigorous process is in place to support projects as they move forward. They must go through rigorous screening, environmental impact assessment and appropriate assessment before their applications are determined by An Bord Pleanála. The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the NPWS also have a statutory role to play in that regard. The resources are available. The Government is ensuring we have adequate resources to support these planning applications. It is a worthwhile project but it is vital that we protect this important habitat.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 2.34 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 3.03 p.m.

Sitting suspended at 2.34 p.m. and resumed at 3.03 p.m.