Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Nov 2023

Vol. 297 No. 4

Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters

Tourism Industry

Senator Lisa Chambers

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, to the Chamber. I want to discuss an issue that I have raised in the House before, that is, the level of bed nights contracted by the Government to house refugees. I will preface my comments by saying, as I did on 18 May when we had statements in the House, that this is not in any way to suggest we are not supportive of helping people or that we want to limit our capacity to assist those fleeing war. However, there has been a direct impact on tourism in many counties, including my own county and that of the Minister of State, County Mayo. The number of bed nights contracted means that fewer beds and less tourist accommodation are available for tourists coming into the region. This is having a knock-on impact on many of the smaller businesses that rely on those tourists coming in - the pubs, coffee shops and restaurants and all of the ancillary or downstream businesses that rely on the hotels, bed and breakfast accommodation and guesthouses being full of tourists.

We have seen that impact this year, as I know from talking to businesses in County Mayo. I am talking in particular about Westport, where businesses say that this season was quieter, there was less footfall and they are not seeing the same numbers coming in the door or the same amount of walk-in business. While I will not name the business, I was in a small restaurant in Westport during the summer which was about to close early because it was not getting the footfall. The owner told me that they had been turning away 30 to 40 people per night the previous summer, such is the difference between this year and last year.

We all accept what had to be done for this year, with the huge numbers coming into our country, and I think we have done an incredible job as a state, a country and a people in housing those who are fleeing war and those in need. I think there is an acceptance in the tourism and hospitality sector that what needed to be done was done, and there was support for that. What is being asked for now, and Fáilte Ireland is also asking for this, is that a plan be put in place for 2024. What are we going to do for the tourism season next year, accepting that this year is almost done and dusted?

We know that over 76,000 beds are currently under contract with the State. Almost 30,000 of those beds are in registered Fáilte Ireland premises but that only caters for hotels and guesthouses and does not cover all tourist accommodation. The remaining 46,000 are contracted in non-registered properties, which is the vast majority of what has been contracted, but these are properties that are tourism accommodation and, again, this impacts those downstream businesses, such as coffee shops, restaurants and pubs.

Nationally, 13% of all registered tourist accommodation, not including the non-registered accommodation, is currently under Government contract. Five counties, Mayo, Offaly, Leitrim, Meath and Clare, go beyond the 13% figure and exceed 20% of all of their bed nights being contracted by the Government. This means those counties are shouldering an unfair burden when it comes to their tourism sector. The Minister of State will be aware that we have spent decades building up our tourism offering and tourism product. So many people are employed directly and indirectly in the sector. It accounts for a huge part of the local economy and household income in County Mayo and the region. I think it is reasonable and fair to ask what is the plan for 2024.

Many people are afraid to raise the issue for fear of being branded as somebody who does not care about or does not want to help those fleeing war, but that is not the case. Ordinary, decent people and businesses on the ground are raising this issue with us and it is incumbent on us, as middle ground, centrist politicians, to raise the issue nationally and bring it to the attention of the Minister.

I have a couple of questions which the Minister of State might be able to assist with. On 18 May last, the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, Deputy Catherine Martin, was in the Chamber to discuss this topic. I am disappointed that she did not have time this morning to come to address this Commencement matter because it was flagged with her Department as early as last week. She said that work was ongoing with Fáilte Ireland to address the issue, that pricing in hotels was being looked at and - this is key - that senior officials in her Department meet with the senior officials group on Ukraine on a weekly basis. I would like to know what is coming out of those weekly meetings in terms of a plan for 2024. She also said that mitigation measures must be put in place. I would like to know if they are in place, if it has been identified what they will be or when they will be in place for next year's season.

Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy Dara Calleary)

I thank Senator Chambers for raising this issue and it is important that it is raised and discussed. I am taking it on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, who has addressed the matter previously. She recognises the importance of the tourism sector to the Irish economy and to communities in every corner of Ireland. She has a particular interest in the development of the tourism sector, given its environmental, economic and societal benefits. In this regard, a balanced regional supply of tourism accommodation is key.

As the Senator said, she raised this issue last May. Since then, Fáilte Ireland has been working on increasing the accommodation audits to which she referred and which are establishing a baseline for existing capacity and providing a gap analysis in each destination and region. As part of the roll-out of all destination experience development plans, one of which has been completed in the Westport area, Fáilte lreland has carried out an audit and is mapping out current accommodation stock. This includes a quality and gap analysis for additional accommodation development on a county-by-county basis. Fáilte Ireland is using these audits to inform local authorities to allow them to shape their specific tourism accommodation strategies.

The war in Ukraine, combined with the high number of international protection applicants, has resulted in the largest humanitarian effort in the State’s history. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is engaged across government concerning temporary accommodation for those in need of shelter and is responsible for all contracted accommodation used to house Ukrainian beneficiaries of temporary protection and other international protection applicants. As referred to by the Senator, Failte Ireland has carried out a detailed analysis of data provided by the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth concerning the bed stock under contract to accommodate Ukrainian and international protection applicants, which established that 13% of the Failte Ireland registered tourism stock was under contract. As referenced by Senator Chambers, that analysis also identified that in five counties more than 20% of the registered stock is used for humanitarian purposes, including in Mayo and peaking at 33% in Clare.

On foot of the Senator’s intervention in May and the work that has been done, the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media has, at the senior officials group on Ukraine, communicated the potential challenges arising for the tourism ecosystem, particularly in those parts of the country where high proportions of the tourist accommodation stock are directed to humanitarian purposes.

As part of this year's budget, the Minister has secured an extra €10 million for 2024 for a comprehensive programme of supports that will be targeted at the downstream tourism businesses referred to by the Senator, which are experiencing a particular trading challenge linked to the reduction in footfall to activities and attractions in regions most impacted by tourism bed stock displacement.

This programme of supports includes investment in sustainable tourism development and promotion, industry digitalisation, promotion of domestic tourism and festivals and recruitment and retention initiatives. The Minister has also asked Fáilte Ireland to engage with impacted businesses to consider the scope for a specific business support scheme that could affect the most affected tourism activities and attractions. I am led to believe that a report in this regard is due to be submitted imminently to the Department.

Fáilte Ireland is also in the process of conducting an analysis of current data provided by the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, concerning tourism accommodation under State contract. This data, in addition to a strong evidence base from impacted downstream businesses, will be critically important to gain a full understanding of how tourism accommodation stock displacement has negatively impacted the tourism sector.

Senator Lisa Chambers

If the Minister starts talking about accommodation audits and providing gap analysis, the eyes of most people in the industry will just glaze over because that is not really a tangible response. Looking at additional accommodation development, we have accommodation, it is just being used for different purposes. The Minister should look at getting some of that accommodation back into use for tourism for next year. That is the easiest way to do it

Six months ago, the Minister was in this Chamber. On that day, she said: "I have asked Fáilte Ireland to do an analysis. It is really key and only prudent to be ready and not to ask 'what we do'?" This was six months ago when the data was gathered. She said that everything had to be evidence-based and data had to be gathered, but: "we need to have those mitigation measures in place and ready to go". Six months on, nothing in her response suggests to me that any mitigation measures are in place or even ready to go. That is really disappointing and worrying for the tourism sector, particularly in the western region, where most of the accommodation is being provided.

Regarding the impact on the sector, the Minister will be very aware of it because Fáilte Ireland has provided this information to her on a rolling basis, almost month-by-month. The most recent figures show that the impact on downstream tourism businesses is between €700 million and €1 billion annually. The lower figure being the most conservative if only looking at registered accommodation. If just half of the unregistered accommodation is factored in, it goes up to €1 billion of an economic impact on downstream tourism businesses. The Minister wants more information. I think that is enough information to prompt any Minister to act with urgency and put in place the mitigation plans she said she would six months ago.

Deputy Dara Calleary

As the Senator knows, the Government has agreed to move from an emergency response to a more mainstream approach that will include a reduced reliance on serviced accommodation. In respect of many areas, the analysis has been completed. The Minister has secured a substantial extra budget allocation to support those downstream businesses.

She is identifying the work for a specific business support scheme , which will go in place to assist those businesses. I agree with much of the Senator's analysis. We need to get those rooms back into tourism use and I will reflect her views to the Minister.

Heritage Sites

Senator Micheál Carrigy

My matter relates to Corlea Trackway Visitor Centre in Keenagh, County Longford and the monastic site on Inchclearaun in Lough Ree. Corlea Trackway is a 2,000 year old Iron Age highway, which was uncovered in the bogs in south Longford. It has been developed into visitor site, managed by the OPW. Visitor numbers are quite low because it is not being promoted well enough. The range of features on the site that people can visit needs to be expanded. This is why I am bringing the issue here today regarding the monastic stones at Inchclearaun. To give a bit of background, this is an island on Lough Ree where mighty Queen Maebh of Connacht lived and died. A monastic site was founded on the island by St. Diarmaid in 540 AD. He was the teacher of St. Ciarán in Clonmacnoise. The place has a lot of history.

In the 1980s, some of the monastic stones were stolen from the site and taken to America. Looking back at the RTÉ archives, we can see where the FBI was involved in an investigation when the stones were put up for sale to Boston College for IR£5 million in 1990. The FBI mounted a sting operation and the culprit was apprehended. The stones were brought back to Ireland to much fanfare. It was on the national news and the then Minister of State for Defence, Vincent Brady, received them at Shannon Airport. At the time, the plan was to put the stones on display to the general public. These priceless artefacts are sitting in storage in Athenry and have not been seen since. We want to see them brought back to be displayed in Longford. I acknowledge there are criteria for maintaining them under certain conditions and safety considerations but we have an OPW site in our county. We would like to see the stones brought back and put on display as promised. I strongly believe in maintaining our history. We need people to see it. Having the stones in a box in Athenry is not correct. I want the OPW to start making moves to have the stones put on public display securely and safely somewhere in their home county of Longford.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I want to express my sympathies to the Senator, his Fine Gael colleagues and the Belton family on the passing of the former Deputy and Senator from Longford, Louis J. Belton. It was always a pleasure to meet him, and it is quite ironic that we are speaking about a Longford issue here this morning. My thoughts are with you all.

As the Senator knows, the OPW is responsible for the conservation, maintenance, presentation and the promotion of Ireland's most iconic heritage properties, including our two UNESCO world heritage sites, 800 national monuments, 32 national historic properties and more than 5,000 acres of gardens and parklands. The OPW holds the right, under legislation, to enter property to undertake the necessary maintenance and works for the protection of monuments in its care.

As the Senator referenced, in 1984, a major prehistoric trackway of large oak planks was discovered during a Bord na Móna peat harvesting operation at Corlea. Wood samples from Corlea subjected to tree ring analysis indicated a felling date of 148 B.C., thus dating the track back to the early Iron Age. This track was one of the large number of trackways investigated, which range in date from the middle of the fourth millennium BC to the middle of the first millennium A.D. These ancient trackways had become engulfed and preserved by the formation of the raised bog.

The building at Corlea was a prestigious construction of the period. Unlike the earlier tracks, its significance clearly transcends the needs of local farming communities and it may have been part of a network of major communications routes. The Corlea Trackway Visitor Centre was opened in 1994 and is built on the exact axis of trackway in the bog. Within the building, 18 m of trackway is on display. This section of the trackway was exposed and excavated by archaeologists on its discovery. The exposed timbers were removed and preserved by means of sophisticated, dry freezing technique and then re-laid in their original positions. To preserve the last remaining 18 m of the great timbers under the bog, the intact eastern section of the raised bog at Corlea was conserved. To achieve this, the water level in the bog was raised and retained at a higher level by means of sheeting to enclose the area and the construction of small artificial lakes. The visitor centre contains an audiovisual presentation on the excavation and the preservation of the timbers of the Corlea Trackway as well as interpretive panels and artefacts. A boardwalk across the bog and from the rear of the building follows the course and the extent of the remaining trackway within the bog. From this boardwalk can be glimpsed many of the plants and animals of the bogland habitat.

The Corlea Trackway Visitor Centre is, therefore, unique in the country. It combines a number of distinct elements and disciplines, including history, archaeology, engineering, architecture and the natural environment. The OPW is happy to consider the installation of the cross logs referred to by the Senator or, indeed, any exhibition or artefact. However, any decision in this regard will be cognisant of a number of factors.

These include clarification of the ownership of the items in question and the long-term requirements that will have to be put in place to protect them from damage or deterioration. The OPW is committing to engage with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the National Museum of Ireland in this regard.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I am glad the Minister of State recognises the Corlea trackway is unique. We want to see further investment and expand the visitor numbers to the centre. I do not understand why clarification of the ownership of these items is being sought. They have been in the ownership of the OPW for the past 33 years and it is ironic it is now wondering about ownership and the requirements that will have to be put in place to protect them. They have been protected and kept in storage for the past 33 years since they were brought back from America. I take heart from the fact that discussion and engagement will take place with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the National Museum. We need to display these artefacts for people to see. Every day, thousands of kids and other people visit the two museums beside Leinster House to see artefacts. We need to put these artefacts on display for people to see. I have outlined the unique nature of Inchcleraun, with its links to Queen Maeve of Connacht and back to St. Ciarán of Clonmacnoise and St. Diarmaid. It is part of our history and folklore and we need the younger generation to be able to see it. We need to explain the story of the stones and bring them back to be put on display in their home county of Longford.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I agree the OPW should invest far more in its promotion. I was not aware of its significance even though I pass through the area regularly. Far more work needs to be done on promotion. The storage and public display of an artefact are two different things. It is about ensuring we can protect the integrity of items that go on public display. That will form the basis of the negotiation in which the OPW, through the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donovan, will engage with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the National Museum.

Teacher Training

Senator Erin McGreehan

The Minister of State is very welcome to the House. I am seeking departmental support on this issue of recognition and acknowledgement for teachers who graduated prior to 1974, most of whom have now retired. These individuals played an invaluable role in shaping the minds of countless students and dedicated their lives to imparting knowledge and wisdom.

I was recently approached by a wonderful Louth woman, Angela Rankin. A retired teacher, she spoke to me about her life dedicated to education and the pupils she taught along the way. She highlighted two connected issues to me. First, those who graduated from teacher training colleges prior to 1974 should be awarded an honorary degree, as is being done in many UK universities. Many Irish teachers who studied in the UK have been an honorary degrees as recently as this summer. Second, I wish to highlight the strike in which her class in Carysfort College of the years from 1971 to 1973 bravely and boldly took part, as a result of which they were denied a graduation day. The year 1974 marked significant change in the landscape of teacher training, with teacher training programmes becoming bachelor degree qualifications.

Teachers make a lasting impact on our lives. These exceptional individuals embody a love for learning and dedication to their students. They instilled in us a thirst for knowledge, challenged us to think critically and prepared us for the challenges we would face in the wider world. These teachers deserve recognition for their outstanding achievements. They deserve to be honoured for their commitment to educating generations of this nation. One way that can be done is by acknowledging their academic achievements through awarding honorary degrees to these exceptional educators. An honorary degree is a prestigious accolade reserved for individuals who have made extraordinary contributions to their fields. Awarding honorary degrees to these teachers would acknowledge their exemplary academic achievements and lifelong dedication to teaching and would follow suit with UK universities, which have already taken that step.

The second issue I wish to highlight is that in November 1973 approximately 600 women students in Carysfort College decided to strike in protest at the way in which the curriculum was taught and the college governed. The protest soon evolved into calls for the college authorities to give official recognition to the students' union as the premier body representing student interests and to recognise its constitution. The protest was successful. It was not a silly strike. It was not without potentially serious consequences for the students. Before the strike, many young women were sent home with very little excuse or reason and denied the opportunity to become a teacher. It could be described as a regime. The young women in Carysfort College had to live under incredibly strict rules. The rules included that they must not "adopt immodest poses, talk loudly or laugh boisterously in public, utter coarse or irreverent exclamations, drink alcohol at dances or entertainments, attend improper cinema shows, plays or all night dances or partake in immodest or suggestive dances or sea-bathing". I remind the House that this was the 1970s - the time of The Beatles - and not the 1920s. They had no autonomy. They ate what they were told to eat when they were told to eat it. They had strict curfews and no hot water. They had no right to have their views heard or changes made socially or academically. One person said that even a four-year-old nowadays would rebel against that regime. These women exhibited a determination that can only be admired. It was a pushback against the chains Irish society put on young girls and women. They said enough is enough and they rallied and rebelled but never neglected their studies. They left Carysfort and other teacher training institutes and went on to educate a generation of people. Women like Angela Rankin empowered and facilitated my generation and that of the Minister of State to continue to push for societal change. I refer to the change there has been in recent decades. Education has been this country's liberation. Our educators are responsible for that and should be acknowledged.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I thank the Senator for raising this matter, which I am taking on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Foley. As noted by the Senator, in the early years of the State the Department of Education had a direct role in funding and oversight of teacher training colleges, which provided all primary initial teacher education, while preparation of teachers for post-primary education took place largely in universities. Reforms in the 1960s and 1970s saw adjustments to primary initial teacher education programmes and increased State attention on post-primary initial teacher education programmes, due to the introduction of free second-level education. In 1971, driven by wider reforms across the education system, the Higher Education Authority was established. During the 1970s, the teacher education programme was expanded from two years to three years and each teacher training college was affiliated to a university. Today, all programmes of initial teacher education for primary and post-primary levels are subject to accreditation by the Teaching Council for the purposes of registration. Academic accreditation from the relevant awarding body is a key requirement within this.

As regards the awarding of honorary degrees, Irish higher education institutions are autonomous bodies, as set out in legislation, and, as such, the management of academic affairs, including the awarding of degrees, is a matter for each individual institution. Higher education institutions may grant honorary degrees at their discretion, subject to particular procedures and criteria. For some institutions, staff, students and alumni of the institution can nominate candidates for honorary degrees. For others, members of the public may also make a nomination. Honorary degrees are typically awarded by a higher education institution to acknowledge an individual’s outstanding contribution to scholarship, society, culture or civil society. A significant connection to an institution in some capacity is often a criterion in the evaluation of nominees. The Department of Education has no role in those processes and it is not within the discretion of the Minister to award an honorary degree. The Minister cannot direct an institution to confer an honorary degree.

Senator Erin McGreehan

I accept the institutions are autonomous bodies and the universities are autonomous in the awarding of honorary degrees. However, what I am asking the Minister of State to bring back to the Minister, Deputy Foley, and I, too, will bring back to her, is that this is not a normal situation. As a teacher, the Minister, Deputy Foley, knows teachers who trained prior to 1974. It is within her ability to support this call and to write to the universities to invite them to consider this at their discretion. It is not a normal situation.

UK universities have honoured Irish people and given them an honorary degree as an acknowledgment of their exceptional work for this country educating people, dare I say, including most of us in this room. The Minister can support this. While she might not be able to do it, confer it, or direct it, but she can support it.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I will definitely pass that back to the Minister. I have had the pleasure over the years to meet some extraordinary graduates of Carysfort who have made an enormous contribution. Given that it is 50 years since the protest referred to by the Senator, I encourage her to nominate some Carysfort graduates for honorary degrees in the relevant institutions and engage in efforts to mark the protest given that it is 50 years ago. I will pass her views on the overall issue back to the Minister.

Human Rights

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. I want to raise Ireland's relationship with Hong Kong and, in particular, the continued crackdown by the Chinese communist party not just of journalists, politicians, pro-democracy activists and students but anybody who seeks to question it in any way in the special autonomous region of Hong Kong.

In recent years, because of the introduction of the national security law, we have seen increased crackdowns against any of those who dare to question Beijing's authority. We have seen the use of mass trials and the denial of due process. It is fair to say that there is no belief that many of those who come before the courts now in Hong Kong will receive a fair trial.

On 10 August 2020, Jimmy Lai was arrested for the first time. He was a businessman. He tells his own story. He came from a relatively humble and poor background and became a very successful businessman. He ultimately set up and founded the popular newspaper there, Apple Daily, as well as supporting the pro-democracy movement within Hong Kong. He has now been detained, effectively, for 1,000 days. His trial is due to start on 18 December. The United States Government, the European Parliament and UN human rights experts have all called for Jimmy Lai's unconditional release. Recently, ten Catholic bishops and archbishops from around the world, including the Bishop of Raphoe, raised the question of Jimmy Lai's continued detention without trial. I believe it is time for the Government to make a statement that we too believe that Jimmy Lai should be released unconditionally. We should support, as we have always done, the right to freedom of expression and freedom of the press. His son, Sebastian, came to Leinster House not so long ago and his story was very powerful. He spoke about the personal impact that it has had on him and on his family seeing his father jailed. He is determined to continue to raise this case.

We know that Jimmy Lai is not the only one. Students are also affected. Only recently a student who during the 2019 pro-democracy marches was shot by police has been sentenced to 47 months imprisonment for rioting. My concern is with the national security law, which is obviously being targeted against Hong Kong's citizens. Recently a student, who is based in Japan, returned home to Hong Kong and was jailed for two months for sedition. The reason is that between 2018 and 2023 she posted 18 pro-democracy social media posts, of which only two were posted in Hong Kong. Our concern about the national security law is that it is extraterritorial. We must bear in mind that we have a significant number of students in particular from Hong Kong based in Ireland and we must have concern for them.

I hope the Minister of State will set out in the strongest possible terms our concern about the lack of respect for human rights and the rule of law in Hong Kong and that he will join with so many others in calling for the unconditional release of Jimmy Lai.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I thank the Senator for raising this issue. The Department of Foreign Affairs, including through the consul general in Hong Kong, has been following Jimmy Lai's situation closely, including his forthcoming trial on charges relating, as the Senator has referred to, the national security law. This trial is scheduled to begin on 18 December, although I understand from the Department that there may be a further delay to proceedings. Mr. Lai and a number of his colleagues at Apple News have been detained since 2021. Officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs have had contact with Mr. Lai's legal team in this period. They are also closely following other cases, both media and non-media related, in Hong Kong, including the Stand News case, where verdicts are scheduled to be delivered in the coming weeks and the trial of the Hong Kong 47, HK47, which began earlier this year.

We remain seriously concerned by the impact of the national security law on fundamental freedoms and by the decline in democratic values, media freedom and freedom of expression in Hong Kong since its introduction. lreland and our EU partners have consistently expressed grave concern about the effects of the national security law, including in the form of the Foreign Affairs Council conclusions in July 2020. In a further signal of Ireland's concern the Government took the decision to suspend the extradition treaty with Hong Kong in October 2020.

Ireland has also consistently raised its concerns in relation to developments in Hong Kong directly with the authorities in Beijing and in Hong Kong itself. On 7 November, the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs met with foreign minister, Wang Yi, in Beijing and set out lreland's long-standing position on human rights. This included our specific concerns around fundamental freedoms in Hong Kong as well as other broader human rights issues including in relation to Xinjiang.

As a newly re-elected member to the United Nations Human Rights Council, Ireland calls on China to respect fundamental freedoms and international law, including when it comes to preventing the erosion of the rights and freedoms in Hong Kong guaranteed by the one country, two systems principle.

Ireland has also voiced its concerns on many occasions in multilateral fora. Most recently, we reiterated our concern about the impacts of the national security law on fundamental freedoms in Hong Kong as part of our item 4 statement at the United Nations Human Rights Council in Geneva in September.

Ireland cosponsored an event in the margins of the Human Rights Council in September to discuss the situation of Mr. Lai and the broader situation in Hong Kong. In February 2022, as a member of the Media Freedom Coalition, Ireland joined a statement calling on the Chinese authorities to respect freedom of the press and freedom of speech in Hong Kong. Ireland will continue to monitor the situation with regard to Mr. Lai's case, media freedom, and fundamental freedoms more broadly in Hong Kong.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I thank the Minister of State. I am very grateful both for his statement on this matter and, indeed, the strong stance of the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs on human rights and continuing to raise it and making sure that Ireland's voice is heard in the case of Jimmy Lai and so many others who are being unlawfully detained. That is critical.

We must also bear in mind that more than 5,000 Irish citizens are currently estimated to be in Hong Kong. They could be subject to the requirements of the national security law. As we are increasingly seeing, even the simple act of liking particular social media posts may be viewed as seditious, something that we take for granted in Ireland in liking posts or protesting. In those circumstances it is deeply concerning that people are being hauled before the courts and imprisoned.

I welcome the statement made by the Minister of State here. I also welcome the fact that the Department of Foreign Affairs is monitoring this case. I hope the Government will continue to call out the unjust imprisonment of Jimmy Lai and so many others.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I will convey the Senator's acknowledgement of that to the Tánaiste. As he will be aware, the protection and promotion of human rights is at the heart of Ireland's foreign policy. That is why we raise human rights with all of our partners. We believe strongly in addressing these issues in a transparent, open, and frank manner. This was the Tánaiste's approach during his meeting last week with China's foreign minister. At that meeting, the Tánaiste also re-emphasised Ireland's long-held view that all human rights issues of concern should be comprehensively discussed and examined at the UN Human Rights Council, and within the wider UN human rights architecture.

Mr. Lai's case and other ongoing prosecutions of media workers and others in Hong Kong remain a concern. I add that maybe we should not take media freedom for granted in this country either. We will continue with our EU and like-minded partners to seek every appropriate opportunity to highlight these cases in multilateral forums and raise recurring concerns directly with the authorities in Hong Kong and Beijing.

Legislative Process

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

The Minister of State is very welcome and I thank him for taking this matter. I got an email of apology from the Department of Health regarding this, as it is a very important matter. I have no doubt the Minister of State will deal with it very properly. Last year in March the Health (Assisted Human Reproduction) Bill 2022 commenced in the Dáil. It passed Second Stage and moved on to Committee Stage. It was paused on Committee Stage to afford the Committee on International Surrogacy an opportunity to sit and make recommendations to Government. That committee did so and made a presentation to Government of the report on 6 July, and the Acting Chairperson was part of that. On 17 December the Minister for Health was very much appreciated and applauded for bringing to Cabinet a policy paper that pretty much took on board all the recommendations of the committee on how we might legislate for children who are currently living with a legal relationship with only one parent because there is no legal mechanism for the second parent to become their legal, lifelong parent and also for future children born via surrogacy.

Surrogacy is a fact of infertility. It is a treatment for infertility. The people who avail of it, where they are women, are unable to carry a pregnancy because of very serious infertility issues, have experienced serial miscarriages and include cancer survivors. The 221+ Group need to avail of surrogacy for instance, as do people with cystic fibrosis who have had fairly catastrophic treatments. There are also same-sex couples. Male same-sex couples naturally need surrogacy in order to advance their family and do so very successfully. However, under the current regime, the biological father is the only person who may have a legal, lifelong relationship with that child in future and with children already born. Everybody here wants safe, ethical surrogacy. Everybody here wants to be able to look their child in the eye and say that everybody involved in this process has been honoured and respected and that this is who you are, this where you came from and this is your story. I have an eight year-old and she knows everything about her life and about how it came to the point that I am not her legal mother but my husband is her legal father. Everybody in this situation wants their surrogate protected, and future surrogates protected, from any possibility of exploitation.

I have no doubt there is a sentence in the Minister of State's speech that says this is very complex law, because that is what gets said back to me all the time. I have no doubt about that. I appreciate an awful lot of work went into drafting the legislation this year and I acknowledge the amendments are nearly there, but there is huge concern that here we are nearly a year later and coming up to the 17 December. We need to see the amendments. I have been afforded a meeting with the Attorney General. In extraordinary circumstances I was awarded a meeting with him and a senior official in the Department of Health. I know the amendments were coming, but I also know they were delayed because the senior drafter was drafting housing legislation. That is really needed, but what is pretty shocking is we are the Government and we only have one senior legislative drafter. One would have imagined the Government of the country could command greater resources than that, but am I not naive for having thought so? There cannot be any more delays. There are parents who live in fear the biological father will die and the child will have no legal parent in this country. There are families where that relationship has broken down, but the second parent is staying in an abusive relationship with a power imbalance because they have no recourse to the courts. We need a timeline and we need it urgently.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I thank the Senator. We normally get handed folders for these replies, but it is a pleasure to acknowledge the Senator's extraordinary work on this issue, her leadership and her courage over a long, long time. She has nearly given the response. I will go through it, but I will absolutely convey back the urgency of this and the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, gets the urgency.

The Senator knows this, but I can confirm the formal drafting process of the new surrogacy provisions by the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel, OPC, in conjunction with three relevant Departments is now nearing completion. As she referenced, drafting of the Bill had to be paused due to a diversion of personnel to work on highly-prioritised, non-Department of Health legislation. The Minister has asked me to assure the Senator he is prioritising this work. Department officials are engaging intensely with all relevant Departments and other relevant parties, including the Office of the Attorney General, on a daily basis. The Minister has had direct engagement with the Attorney General on this in recent days.

The intention is to insert the finalised new legislative provisions in respect of international surrogacy and past surrogacy arrangements into the Health (Assisted Human Reproduction) Bill 2022 on Committee Stage, along with other proposed amendments to the 11 Parts and 134 pages of the published Bill. These new provisions will need to be approved by Government following the completion of formal drafting by the OPC. The Minister hopes to seek approval for the amendments shortly.

The Senator will appreciate that there is no international consensus on, or any agreed legal instrument addressing the issue of, international surrogacy. She will be aware the Hague working group on private international law matters related to legal parentage generally, including legal parentage resulting from international surrogacy arrangements, is only holding its first meeting this week. It is the understanding of the Minister there are still concerns and reservations among a number of countries participating in this conference towards the undertaking of surrogacy in any form. The absence of a precedent or agreement from an international perspective underlines further why it is imperative we get this complex legislation right, which is something the Senator is absolutely committed to. We also need to ensure alignment with provisions in existing related legislation on the Irish Statute Book.

While it is not possible to provide details prior to agreement by Cabinet, the legislative proposals related to international surrogacy being pursued are closely aligned and consistent with the provisions related to domestic surrogacy outlined in the published assisted human reproduction Bill. Also, the stated position of the three Ministers and the Government has been to seek, insofar as is appropriate and possible, to implement the recommendations of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on International Surrogacy. A key feature of this will be the introduction of a pre-approval system for permitted international surrogacy agreements. The three Departments are not aware of any other jurisdiction that has legislated for a similar type of bespoke process to the one we propose be set up here. Finally, it is anticipated the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, together with the Ministers for Justice and Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, will be in a position to bring the updated Bill, taking account of the amendments, to Cabinet in the coming weeks.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

I will hold on to the words "in the coming weeks". I am aware from my own sources - and to be fair, the Minister, Deputy McEntee, is in regular touch with me as well - that that is actually faithful. I want to puncture one misleading piece in all this. We are not putting in a piece of legislation that has extrajudicial impact. We are saying if an Irish couple is going to pursue surrogacy expecting the support of the State, including an Irish passport and the right to both parents in this State to have lifelong relationships with the child and not to be criminally prosecuted, then they must conform to this set of principles. If people go outside that and engage in unethical acts there should be criminal prosecution, because I believe very strongly it should be about the right thing. One has to look that child in the eye. This is a human being's story, so it has to be ethical and it has to be all those things. We are saying people must conform to this set of principles if they are going to avail of opportunities in the State, not that we are legislating for what happens abroad. We are saying what happens abroad must conform to this or else it is not going to happen. I am very optimistic we will have captured all that. The Chair of the surrogacy committee worked alongside me and others to very much hold to that idea and to the international Verona principles that enshrine all these things, including ensuring a child's right to their identity, ensuring there is no human trafficking element and ensuring the dignity of the human being is respected throughout.

I have no doubt that the Minister will bring this forward in a couple of weeks. That will go down very well in the surrogacy community.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Erin McGreehan)

We all hope it will happen in a couple of weeks. I thank the Minister of State.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I acknowledge again the work of the Senator and the Acting Chairperson in the committee. I can assure them of the commitment of the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, to this. In his remarks to me he said he had conversations in recent days with the Attorney General and is determined to get this through.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Erin McGreehan)

Before I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Malcolm Noonan, to the House, I welcome a young lady, Áine O'Reilly, who is in the Visitors' Gallery. She is in Leinster House this week on work experience and is very welcome.

Housing Provision

Senator Martin Conway

I thank the Minister of State for coming to deal with this Commencement matter, as it comes under his Department. I have been concerned for a long time that Housing for All is not as dedicated to rural housing as it should be. While I appreciate that incremental changes are happening they are not fast enough and in my view are not dealing with some of the blockages that are there. When it comes to developers who want to build quality housing schemes, I have examples all over my constituency where developers are prepared to invest to build houses but they are constantly being knocked back on the basis that the wastewater and sewerage systems are not up to standard. I do not know how we are going to deal with this because it will cost billions to upgrade wastewater schemes but it has to happen. There are many facets to addressing the housing crisis. Rural Ireland has a huge role to play when it comes to helping to address the housing crisis.

If we can build houses in towns and villages in rural Ireland, it will be a far better balance in terms of work-life balance, geographical balance and the urban-rural balance and so on. There are rules and regulations, sometimes for good reasons, but there is a lack of common sense in their implementation. In County Clare - and I am sure it is the case in many other constituencies - there is a situation whereby nobody is entitled to build houses on a national secondary road, no matter what, even though there are some scenarios where it just does not make sense to adopt that policy. We are going to have to look at a situation where we give planners a bit more flexibility in that regard. We also have to look at areas where there is particular pressure to ramp up the provision of wastewater and other supports and services. We should be in a position to grant more planning permissions to people in these areas. Of course, there are systems under pressure, but we are under pressure with a housing crisis as well.

Within Housing for All there needs to be a much greater focus on rural Ireland, and a much greater focus on bringing derelict properties back into back into use. The Croí Cónaithe scheme has been hugely successful and I welcome the announcement yesterday by the Department that it is going to allow or facilitate council loans for vacant properties. That is welcome and is a common sense approach. However, much more needs to be done when it comes to escalating the number of homes that are built in towns and villages. Also, we all have to face up to the fact that there are not going to be as many shops in towns and villages as there used to be, so we have to make it financially viable and attractive for people who may have had a shop to convert it into residential accommodation. We also have to look at the whole issue concerning fire officers and people living over the shop. Hundreds of thousands of people in this country lived over the shop for decades. Now we are in a situation where the upstairs area in probably 80% of the retail units in towns and villages in rural Ireland is vacant. They could easily be brought into use. What we need is common sense but what we really need is a much greater focus in the whole area of rural housing as part of Housing for All.

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Malcolm Noonan)

I thank the Senator. As the Senator may be aware, updated rural housing guidance are currently being prepared by my Department. He speaks very well about the challenges but there are fantastic opportunities out there now. The updated guidelines once issued will expand on the high-level spatial planning policy of the national planning framework, NPF, and in particular on the national policy objective 19 which relates to rural housing. This objective makes a clear policy distinction between rural areas under urban influence on one hand, which we want to discourage, such as all areas under community catchment of cities, towns, centres of employment and structurally weaker rural areas where population levels may be low or in some cases declining. This policy objective is also aligned with the established approach whereby considerations of social or economic need are to be applied by planning authorities in rural areas under urban influence. The new guidelines will replace the current rural housing guidelines which date from 2005, and enable county development plans to continue to provide for housing in the countryside based on the considerations detailed in the NPF while balancing this with the need to manage development in certain areas, such as areas around cities and larger towns and environmentally sensitive areas, in order to avoid overdevelopment or ribbon development which is leading to negative commuter patterns and undue pressure on services for local authorities. Due care is being taken to ensure the updated guidelines will not conflict with fundamental EU freedoms, comply with EU environmental legislative requirements and have due regard to decisions of the European Court of Justice. Having regard to these complex considerations the guidelines are subject to legal review and ministerial approval, following which it is intended that they will be published for a period of public consultation.

Both current and future planning guidelines will continue to allow existing county development plans to provide for rural housing. In the meantime however, the NPF objectives together with the 2005 guidelines, enable planning authorities to prepare and adopt local development plan policies for one-off housing in rural areas. The draft sustainable and compact settlement guidelines published in August 2023 include policy in relation to the planning and development of settlements. The draft guidelines state that rural towns and villages should be grown at a rate that is appropriate to the service and employment function of the settlement and based on the capacity of the infrastructure. The Senator mentioned wastewater infrastructure and I will get to that shortly. The guidelines also note that the planning authorities should promote and support housing that offers an alternative to persons who might otherwise look to construct a house in the surrounding countryside.

Historically there has been a strong tradition of rural housing construction in Ireland, with approximately one-quarter of all delivery nationally for the past 30 years falling within this category. That is significant. Rural housing continues to be an important component of new housing delivery with an average of 4,000 to 5,000 new rural dwellings being built annually. CSO data on new dwelling completions for 2022 show that of the 29,851 new dwellings completed, 4,743 or 16% were single, one-off dwellings in rural areas. In April this year the Government approved additional measures under the Housing for All action plan to incentivise the activation of increased housing supply and to help to reduce housing construction costs. These included the introduction of temporary time-limited arrangements for the waiving of local authority section 48 development contributions and the refunding of Uisce Éireann water and wastewater connection charges. These new measures are intended to help boost the delivery of housing supply, including in rural areas by addressing cost and viability issues, with a view to ensuring that the housing delivery targets set in Housing for All can be met. In addition, the Department of Housing Local Government and Heritage’s multi-annual rural water programme is delivering improvements to water services, including wastewater, in areas of rural Ireland where Uisce Éireann water services were not available. The programme provides capital funding aimed at improving the quality, reliability and efficiency of rural water services infrastructure. I can confirm that the framework for the new multi-annual rural water programme 2024 to 2026 will be published in the coming weeks. I will come back in a moment in regard to Croí Cónaithe.

Senator Martin Conway

I thank the Minister of State for a comprehensive review. I am glad to hear that the guidelines are being examined again. The Minister of State understands the issues. It often annoys me to see buildings that used to be shops, shoe shops, clothes shops, etc. just closed up. Truly they could be turned into homes.

The amount of vacant commercial property in small towns and villages around the country is terrible when people could be living in these properties. The problem is that turning it back into use is unviable and unattractive because the guidelines and fire safety requirements are over the top. We need to get people into homes. It is a waste of commercial property such as shops and closed pubs. Thousands of people could live in these units if we went it about it properly and eased up on the red tape.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I agree wholeheartedly with the Senator. I was instrumental in bringing the town centre first policy into the programme for Government. Critically, as I look across the country and travel, I see many fantastic premises such as 19th and early 20th century buildings that could be brought back into productive use. This is why the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage introduced an easing of planning restrictions regarding above-shop premises and the renovation of pubs for living. A lot is happening. You can see really good examples in towns across the country but it is not happening at the scale that is required to provide the capacity to those towns and villages to grow. The water and wastewater infrastructure is a critically important part of it. This is where is investment in the small town and villages growth programme through Uisce Éireann. The Government is frontloading significant funding to Uisce Éireann.

Separately, we need to use innovation. With the Heritage Council, I will bring in more architectural officers in every local authority. This is hugely important because these buildings need to be brought back into use using heritage and regeneration. We need to respect the heritage of the towns they are in. There is significant potential in existing stock in our towns and villages and we want to see that realised.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 11.32 a.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 12 noon.

Sitting suspended at 11.32 a.m. and resumed at 12 noon.