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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 29 Nov 2023

Vol. 297 No. 8

Organisation of Working Time (Reproductive Health Related Leave) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Remaining Stages

SECTION 1
Question again proposed: "That section 1 stand part of the Bill."

I welcome to the Distinguished Visitors Gallery the group from the Newbridge active retired, who are guests of Senator O’Loughlin. I hope they enjoy their day in Leinster House, particularly in the Seanad Chamber, and travel safely home whenever they are heading back.

We were on the last occasion discussing section 1 and that is where we resume. I invite Senators from the Labour Party group to speak first. I think they already spoke to the section so, if they do not want to do so again, I can put the question that the section stand part of the Bill. If they want to speak, that is fine.

I will speak to section 1. I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, for coming to the Chamber. I am delighted to welcome Newbridge active retirement. I thank members of the INTO for attending this evening on what is-----

I did not know who our other visitors were so I could not welcome them. They are very welcome as well.

We have all bases covered.

This has been a long road with regard to this legislation. The Labour Party introduced it in the Seanad in May 2021. We had Committee Stage in January 2022 and I am most grateful, particularly to the Leader of the House, Senator Chambers, and her office for giving Government time to this Bill this evening.

We know from listening to the many stories of women who have had the trauma of experiencing miscarriage or going through the tortuous journey of fertility treatment that not only is this a health issue, but it is also very much a workplace issue. From the many harrowing stories we have received almost weekly about people’s experiences, it is blatantly obvious that there need to be compassionate and flexible work arrangements for those experiencing early miscarriage or going through fertility treatment. There needs to be a statutory right to a protected workplace leave.

I thank the INTO, whose survey in 2019 and campaigning on this was the genesis for this Bill. Time and again, we have to remind ourselves that, while there are workers fortunate enough to have the flexibility in their work lives to take time off at short notice or have flexible work hours, there are many others - particularly teachers, health professionals, those who work in retail or in any other customer-facing role and anybody on fixed hours - who cannot drop tools at the last moment because of personal health circumstances.

The Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, is going to respond. I thank the former Minister of State, Deputy English, for his support for this Bill initially. I have no doubt the current Minister of State will support it also. Since the beginning of Committee Stage, a number of things have happened. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, in particular, has shown an interest in our Bill. He commissioned research from the pregnancy loss research working group in UCC, under the stewardship of Professor Keelin O'Donoghue. That research has been produced and is with the Government. We very much urge the Government to publish it as soon as possible. Contained in the report will be a very powerful argument as to why we need the proposed leave, particularly for those experiencing early miscarriage. We should bear in mind that anybody who experiences pregnancy loss up to 24 weeks has no statutory entitlement to leave. After 24 weeks, she has an entitlement to maternity leave, but prior to that she does not.

We have heard some very harrowing cases of women who lose babies at 20 weeks and are told they must turn up for work the next day or take sick leave or annual leave. Women continually tell us they are not sick when they suffer a miscarriage, and couples are not sick when they go through fertility treatment. We have to recognise the particular nature of infertility treatment and early miscarriage.

I want to touch on the other major development since Committee Stage began in January 2022, namely the introduction of public supports for IVF. We very much welcome that. We have been a long time waiting. I have spoken about it in this Chamber. I remember vividly the commitments made in 2016 to introduce the supports. It has taken us until September 2023 to introduce them for couples and those going on the experience alone who cannot afford what is a very expensive treatment. We have our issues with the scheme and there are shortcomings regarding its criteria and how it is being rolled out, but we support it nonetheless.

To my mind and that of the Labour Party, there is a glaring shortcoming to be considered. Every person who meets the criteria should be able to access the publicly available IVF scheme but the reality is that not everybody will be able to do so equally. If I have a job with flexibility and can start work three hours later than usual, or if I work close to Dublin and can disappear on my lunch break to have a scan or whatever it might be, I am in a very different set of shoes than the teacher, nurse or shop worker who simply cannot start work three hours later than usual or take an extended lunch break. The reality is that fertility treatment is not a once-off procedure. You cannot choose the day; your body decides when it can happen. You have to go through a series of stages with regard to follicle tracking, egg collection and transfer. We need that recognised in the workplace. While I believe there is willingness on the part of the Government to move on early miscarriage, we have not heard anything positive so far, notwithstanding that there is cross-party support for our Bill in the Chamber and, I have no doubt, on the part of the Minister. However, I urge the Government to consider seriously my proposal in this regard. Within the Bill, there is provision for ten days' leave for those going through fertility treatment. We believe it is a vital complement to ensure equal access for all who want to undertake publicly funded fertility treatment.

I pay tribute to all who have completed our survey and come to us with their stories. It is not easy as it is a deeply private matter. In particular, I thank the INTO, which has been after me wondering what is happening with this Bill. I know we will be saying that when it goes into the Dáil, but the thing is-----

I have given the Senator a lot of latitude.

I know the Chair has. I am concluding and am just saying thank you.

That is fine. I am just conscious that the Minister of State may have to go in a minute. I want to try to get the business done beforehand. I am only joking.

It is fine. I am concluding but it is important that I put my thanks on the record.

It is a very sensitive topic and I was giving the Senator leeway. Section 1 is the definition section. It contains a one-line sentence.

We were not really talking about section 1 but I did allow some discussion. We are on Committee Stage now and have had the Second Stage debates. I appreciate that Second Stage was a long time ago. If Senator Dolan wants to talk about section 1, I will allow her, but otherwise I am going to put the question about section 1. Section 1 contains only a definition of the Bill.

Yes, the definition. I will keep it very short. The Government is paying attention to this matter. I thank colleagues in the House for all the work done on it. It is literally about considering how we support paid leave upon a loss, particularly a pregnancy loss. The Government is looking into this. Senator Sherlock has mentioned all the work done by the Department of Health on supports for women. This is so long overdue. The Government is really stepping up and ensuring good access for women across the whole country. I am referring to access at regional level, not just services that are, as usual, based solely in the city centre. As if. I thank the Acting Chairman.

The Chair is being very neutral.

Section 1 agreed to.

Sections 2 to 7, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 8

Amendments Nos. 1 and 2, in the names of Senators Doherty and Norris, respectively, are out of order as they are not relevant to the subject matter of the Bill.

Amendments Nos. 1 and 2 not moved.
Section 8 agreed to.
SECTION 9

Amendment No. 3, in the names of Senators Hoey, Moynihan, Sherlock and Wall, is out of order as it is not relevant to the subject matter of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

Amendment No. 3 not moved.
Section 9 agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.

When is it proposed to take Report Stage?

Bill received for final consideration.

When is it proposed to take the next Stage?

Question proposed, "That the Bill do now pass."

I thank the Minister for attending. If he would like to say something, he may. He does not have to say anything but I will let him.

The Minister of State is more than welcome to.

I do not want to keep people too long before concluding but it would be remiss of me to come to the Chamber on a topic this sensitive and important without recognising the considerable work completed by Senator Sherlock and her group colleagues. I commend the Senator for her constructive actions this evening and throughout the period of the Bill's consideration. This was certainly the sentiment of my predecessor, Damien English, when he held this office.

Any couple that has been through a pregnancy and experienced a pregnancy loss, be it a mother and father or a mother and mother, will know how devastating it can be for a family. Very often, that devastation is particularly lonely. It is not shared widely, like the joy of childbirth. Unfortunately, it is borne alone or as a couple behind a closed door in so many cases. It requires an element of sensitivity that we have not seen to date in our legislative framework or in the workplaces we all know.

As Senator Dolan has mentioned, a great deal of progress has been made over the years, particularly through the Maternity Protection Acts but also through the Paternity Leave Act, which provides for paternity leave when a baby is stillborn after 24 weeks. However, I fully accept Senator Sherlock's point that this is nowhere near good enough or suitable enough.

Senator Sherlock has already referred to several issues related to the report commissioned by the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, and carried out by academics in both UCC and the University of Galway. I do not have the full report to hand.

I have the explanatory memorandum to hand. We are at that stage and I am happy to share that with Senator Sherlock after this debate. As the Senator alluded to, the findings and recommendations arising from that report will be considered immediately by the Minister to look at the most appropriate legislative avenue to ensure we can achieve this. We have a shared goal. It is now about the Government working with all Senators to ensure that what we bring to the Dáil is legislatively robust and, most importantly, meets the needs of the people for whom we seek to care in this legislation. I use that term deliberately. This is caring legislation and a caring initiative. There were a couple of clarifications requested regarding fertility treatment. The Labour Party has been particularly ambitious in that area in providing legislative change. It is not something, as a member of the Government, that I can confirm but I can react. I appreciate that the time required to do that is pressing on.

To conclude, I thank those who contributed to this debate at this stage and previously in the Seanad. I look forward to continuing to work with my officials, the Minister's officials, the Senators present and their party colleagues in the Dáil to make sure we bring the robust ambitions of this legislation to fruition as quickly as possible.

While being in the Chair, you have to be neutral about everything and not have an opinion, this is important and worthy legislation. There is hardly a family in the country that has not been touched by this issue. It is very sensitive, which is why I gave lots of latitude but I was conscious there was a vote. I was not sure if the Minister of State was paired and I wanted to get it done so we would not have to wait for him to come back and so we have done everything on that basis. Senator Wall wishes to say a few words.

The Acting Chairperson summed it up well. There is not a family that has not been touched, unfortunately, by pregnancy loss. The Labour Party is proposing to put workplace leave to deal with that on a statutory footing, as the Minister of State said. It is important. I second what the Minister of State said regarding the work of my colleague, Senator Sherlock, on this matter. It seems to be a long time since we were in the Dáil Chamber when this was first discussed all those years ago. She has continued to highlight this issue at every opportunity. I also acknowledge the INTO and its contribution to this matter as part of the Labour Party Bill this evening. It is, of course, a workers' rights issue, which is a cornerstone of what we stand for in the Labour Party. I thank the Minister of State for his contribution and support and the previous Minister of State, Deputy English. We look forward to the progress of the Bill through the Lower House. I thank Senator Sherlock again for her work to date on this issue. It is very much appreciated by us all in the Labour Party.

I give my own appreciation and, I am sure, on behalf of everybody. There was full Government support in the Seanad, in fact, unanimous support for the work on this Bill, as the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, and others outlined.

Question put and agreed to.

I ask the Acting Leader, Senator Crowe, when it is proposed to sit again.

Tomorrow at 9.30 a.m.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar athló ar 5.23 p.m. go dtí 9.30 a.m., Déardaoin, an 30 Samhain 2023.
The Seanad adjourned at 5.23 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 30 November 2023.
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