Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 30 Nov 2023

Vol. 297 No. 9

An tOrd Gnó - Order of Business

Senator Regina Doherty

I join the Leas-Chathaoirleach in wishing the ambassador, his colleagues and the tens of thousands of Romanians who live in towns and villages around Ireland, a very happy Romanian national day. I have visited Romania twice and for any colleagues who have not been there, it is an absolutely beautiful country and I suggest they put it on their bucket list.

The Order of Business is No. 1, a private Bill entitled the Royal Hibernian Academy (Amendment of Charter) Bill 2023 – Committee and Remaining Stages, to be taken at 11.45 a.m or on conclusion of the Order of Business.

Senator Shane Cassells

I join the Leas-Chathaoirleach and Deputy Leader in welcoming the ambassador and his staff. I wish them well and thank them for their service.

I note the comments made by the egotistical billionaire owner of the social media platform X, or Twitter, this morning. He made an expletive-ridden rant attacking his own advertisers who are leaving the platform in their droves and taking their money away. It is also notable that last Thursday, when riots were raging in this city and the Garda was contacting the social media platform giants based here in Dublin to have them remove the vile content and disinformation that was appearing online, his company, X, was the only one that was not willing to engage with An Garda Síochána. This was confirmed by the Minister for Justice in the Dáil. Meta and TikTok engaged with the Garda but not so X, which is a law unto itself and which, as its owner has stated, has no regard for the concept of regulation.

Next Wednesday, representatives from the social media giants, Meta Google and TikTok, will appear before the media committee to discuss disinformation and how their platforms are used and abused. X will not appear in public session. It will attend but only in private session, so we will not have Mr. Musk's company in next Wednesday to discuss the concept of disinformation openly and transparently, as he would like.

Yesterday, in the audiovisual room we had representatives from independent radio stations across Ireland, which do such a fine job and uphold good journalistic standards. As they noted, the total advertising revenue of the sector and RTÉ is €166 million, whereas the social media giants will take almost €1 billion in advertising revenue. This shows the disparity that has arisen in the media in Ireland. We cannot hold back the water in terms of where people use and access news and media. That would be a fruitless exercise. There is an urgent need for a debate about media literacy in this country. We should have a debate on the issue in this Chamber with the Minister for Education. If people are accessing platforms such as X, which clearly cannot regulate itself and has failed to comply with its own community's standards, to get their information, it is incumbent on us to ensure we have an open debate about media literacy and the trajectory of the media in this country.

Senator Martin Conway

I echo the words of the Leas-Chathaoirleach on Romania's national day. I know the ambassador is no longer here but I am sure he will read the Official Report.

I commend Ilinca and the tens of thousands of Romanians who contribute so much to our country. I would also like to commend the Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, who no doubt has had a difficult week as a result of the outrageous violence that took place in Dublin city centre this day last week. The Minister is handling it very well. The proposals for body cameras, facial recognition software and equipping the special units of An Garda Síochána with Tasers, etc., are welcome. When the legislation for facial recognition comes through, I hope that it will be unanimously supported.

I would also like to say that both public representatives and politicians need to be very careful with posting images of vulnerable people on social media. An image was posted of a vulnerable person yesterday and that was unacceptable. A post by somebody who is followed by thousands of people identified a person and that is not acceptable. We just need to be careful. We need to be respectful and careful.

Finally, I would also like to agree with Senator Cassells in what he said about X. I commend the social media platforms that engaged with An Garda Síochána and I call out the one that did not. I also support the call for a debate on the media in the new year.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I want to be associated with the kind remarks to the Romanian ambassador and his staff. I have been to Romania on a number of occasions. It is truly a beautiful place, and they are beautiful people. I also acknowledge that many Romanians work in the Seanad, including Ilinca. We have many Romanians working in the catering, housekeeping, secretarial, administration and security services. Romanian people are very much immersed in our society, and particularly in our parliamentary community. That is fantastic and I acknowledge that.

Today I want to talk briefly about the Department of agriculture, which this week published its Annual Review and Outlook for Agriculture, Food and the Marine 2023. Clearly, this is a very important sector. It is of critical importance to our agriculture, food and marine industry. I would like to call for a debate on it, because agriculture does not get enough debate in this House. It has a set panel that is designated for agriculture. Clearly, when it was decided to establish the Seanad, agriculture was prioritised as one of the key bodies.

I will raise some of the highlights in the Minister’s report, which he published the other day. There is a record of €19 billion in agrifood exports for 2022. Some 164,000 are employed in the agrifood sector. There is €6.9 million in exports in the dairy industry, with both butter and cheese amounting to €1 billion. The exports of beef are €3.1 billion, which is an increase of €620,000. In the area of tillage, there is an additional 90,000 tonnes of cereal production in this country. This is a good news story. Beverages exports are at €2.1 billion with Irish whiskey now exceeding €1 billion. All of this was announced this week and that is impressive stuff. Our seafood exports are at €642 million, which is a 5% increase in value.

We have to do some work on forestry, and we all know and have identified that. National targets have been set by the Government and they are simply not delivering. Finally, 80% of our mushrooms are exported to Great Britain. What an impressive crop. We have a few challenges around that, because we can grow that business even further.

Finally, regarding the Brexit adjustment reserve, BAR, came into place to support many. The mushroom, beef and seafood sectors were supported by it, but that will end on 31 December this year. There may be an overhang, although I am told that we cannot continue to apply this funding. I therefore think we need to keep a focus on this in the debate. Let us look at the Brexit adjustment reserve, how it supported the industries I mentioned today, and how we benefited from that. That was critically important. Brexit had a huge impact on agriculture, which is one of our major exporting industries in this country. In order to keep the focus, my ask is to look at BAR and its impact on the agrifood sector.

Senator Fintan Warfield

This week, the Government chose to reject the Sinn Féin motion on neutrality. Instead, the Government continues in its dying days to push through a fundamental shift in our foreign policy legislation, which will remove the triple lock and, in our view, will undermine our credibility on the world stage. It will push through legislation that is in very stark contrast to Fianna Fail’s recent manifesto and indeed the programme for Government. Our neutrality is long held. It is cherished by the Irish people. Being neutral is not only our greatest protection and defence, it is also our greatest tool in being able to present a positive and constructive role in the world. It has provided this State with credibility and impartiality to be a voice for peace and de-escalation the world over.

I do not need to speak about the underfunding of the Defence Forces. We undershot the required capital investment by €70 million this year. The budget for next year also means that there will be another underinvestment of €70 million. There is a retention and recruitment crisis in our Defence Forces. The report by the commission on the future of the Defence Forces identified the implementation of the working time directive as a priority issue. Yet, 19 months later, that has still not been implemented.

The Government must not ram through this legislation to remove the triple lock. They do not have a mandate to do this. There is no programme for Government commitment, and it was not in any manifesto either. We are also part of the EU, which is always keen to proclaim its commitment to peace, human rights, the rule of law and democracy. We know, however, the identity of the EU as a political project has shifted dramatically. Security and defence spending in the EU is now €44 billion, which is an increase of 123% since the last budgetary cycle. It is a political choice to fund arms, guns and tanks over culture and education. There is no doubt about it: one of the outcomes of the war in Ukraine will be the further militarisation of the European Union, and that will happen in our name, too. That is why Ireland needs to be relentless in its pursuit of a European Union that is based on peace, and not on hard power or militarism. Call me naive, but we know the story. In the end, politics comes in and decides the outcome. Ireland and the EU should always advocate for a political process immediately.

Senator Eugene Murphy

I first want to support the comments made by Senator Boyhan about agriculture regarding the extraordinary figure of more than €19 billion in exports. We should also recognise why must deal with environmental issues. Farmers are well tuned into that and will make some of the necessary changes. We must realise that this is huge for our economy going forward. We need to be careful about at times saying things that can damage that business. There was more than €19 billion and there are 145,000 people who are employed in the business. Sometimes, some people who seem to come out with an anti-farmer agenda are reckless in their comments. They are absolutely reckless. Do we realise how many jobs are involved in the agricultural sector? Do we realise how much they mean to our balance of payments? Some of those comments are not necessary at all. I say this on the basis that I engage with farmers all the time and they want to make the environmental changes. They acknowledge there is a challenge. The Minister for agriculture and the Ministers of State in that Department are doing a very good job to balance everything here and being responsible in looking after their sector and acknowledging the environmental challenges also. Senator Boyhan’s comments this morning were important.

Finally, as a person who spent 20 years in the broadcasting sector, and I could not be around yesterday because of personal issues, I very much support Senator Cassells’s call for a media literacy debate here in this Chamber with the relevant Ministers. Certainly, those people in local radio work very hard. Senator Cassells gave a figure of more than €160 million in revenue that they take in, compared to €1 billion in social media. That shows how hard they have to work. They are employing a lot of people around this country. I want to support the comments by Senator Cassells. It will probably be 2024 when we do that, but it would be a very important debate to have.

Senator Michael McDowell

I advert to an issue arising out of the recent troubles in Dublin. People have been speaking about an expectation that the Judiciary will inflict tough sentences. The Judiciary will do what it will do. I draw attention to one simple fact, which is that, at the moment, there are waiting times of two years at least in some jury cases involving rape and matters like that. The Courts Service is operating under a huge backlog situation in which dates are being fixed for jury trials two years after they come to the Circuit Court. The consequence of this is that the suffering of actual victims of crime, including rape victims, families of murder victims, victims of assault and victims of various other, serious crimes, is extended unnecessarily. In the United States and the United Kingdom, you see people in jail within six or eight months, even after contested trials. Here, you just do not see that. There is something wrong with our system and we have to address it.

The second point is that if there are more convictions, we have nowhere to put those people. In Mountjoy Prison, there are people sleeping on mattresses on the floor. This overcrowding is the kind of situation that gave rise to the commission of investigation into the death of Gary Douch. That will be repeated. We must face up to all of these issues. I ask the Deputy Leader for a debate to discuss the matter, including whether we have enough prison spaces. I am not suggesting prison for everybody but I am asking whether there are enough prison spaces, what is happening in the court system and what is happening with what I consider to be a crisis in criminal justice. I ask the Deputy Leader to arrange a proper discussion in the House in order to thrash out the solutions to these problems.

Senator Ollie Crowe

The vacant property refurbishment grant provides funding of up to €50,000 to renovate a vacant property and up to €70,000 if the property is derelict. It can be availed of if the applicant intends either to live in the property or to rent it out. There is a considerable number of property owners across the country who will benefit from the grant. It is an important piece of the jigsaw in terms of our efforts to tackle the current housing situation. In my county of Galway, the scheme absolutely could be beneficial across both city and county. I was disappointed, therefore, to read earlier this week that no applicants in Galway have drawn down the funding over the first 18 months the scheme has been in effect. I am sure some applications are working their way through the system but the fact is no funding has been drawn down. It is disappointing. An issue that was raised with me is that the grant is given only after the works have been completed. I presume this is done to protect public money and I recognise, of course, the need to do so. We must balance that need to protect public funds with making the scheme a success. We need to look at it again. We can at least allow some percentage of the scheme funding to be paid upfront where contractors are carrying out the work. I would be grateful if the Deputy Leader would raise this issue with the Minister.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I support the call by Senator Cassells for a discussion on media. I was delighted to organise the briefing yesterday by the Independent Broadcasters of Ireland, IBI. There was a fantastic attendance and it was obvious from the organisation's requests that it needs support into the future. A discussion on this issue would be timely, as would an examination of the sound and vision fund. The make-up of that fund was highlighted yesterday and how difficult it is for IBI to get support from it for certain types of programming. I fully support the call by Senator Cassells.

I thank the Minister for Health for agreeing to add the SMA heel prick test to the list of tests done after children are born. It is an issue I and others have raised on a number of occasions over the past 12 months. I pay tribute to neighbours of mine from home, Brona and Brian Noonan, who highlighted this issue to me and advocated in the media, on behalf of their young son, Donnacha, for the test to be done. It has now been agreed by the Minister that it will be included. It will only cost approximately €300,000 per year but it can make a massive difference to children's lives in ensuring they get the treatment they deserve in early life. I pay tribute to Brona and Brian and thank the Minister for supporting the change. It needs to be implemented in the short term. I pay tribute also to the organisation working on this issue, which held numerous briefings in Dublin. Well done to those involved. The change must happen in early 2024. It cannot just be announced and not implemented straight away. I ask that correspondence be sent from the Leader's office to the Minister to ensure it is implemented early next year.

Senator Regina Doherty

I thank colleagues for their contributions. On Senator Carrigy's request, I am very happy to send a letter on our behalf thanking the Minister for the inclusion of the additional tests in the heel prick test and asking for expedition in ensuring the change is implemented sooner rather than later. Having had four babies, it was a test I always hated. It is an awful test to do to a child but it definitely has positive outcomes. I also acknowledge Senator Carrigy's support for Senator Cassells's request for a debate on media.

Senator Crowe asked me to send a letter to the Minister on what probably are anomalies in the vacant property refurbishment grant. If what the Senator says is true, that nobody in Galway has applied for it, then there certainly is an issue. It is a really good grant that has very good outcomes in terms of what we want to achieve, which is to increase the housing stock. I will happily write a letter from the Leader's office today.

Senator McDowell asked for a debate on what is a very apt issue. Our feelings are very heightened in the past week arising from the two incidents that happened last Thursday. The knee-jerk reaction is to say we must get tough on crime and we must have stronger sentences. That is an understandable response, which has come from a lot of people. The obvious question, however, is where the people sentenced to prison will go. I drive past what should be Thornton Hall twice a day. It is the best serviced site in the country, with roads leading up to a field, security gates and lights that are lit every night and lead into a field, going nowhere. There is a fine farm surrounding the site on which the farmer, I assume, is growing something. It is an absolute shame that we did not take advantage during the years to advance that project. However, the best time to do something is now. I very much support the aim of modernising our prison system because what we have probably is not fit for purpose. We saw the response to the Minister for Justice when she went to Limerick recently to open the new women's prison there. People who are incarcerated are entitled to human dignity, which is not the case at the moment. I support the Senator's call for a debate and will ask the Leader to organise it as soon as possible.

Senators Murphy and Boyhan acknowledged the real positives in the review that was issued this week by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. Agriculture absolutely is a vital part of our industry and the fabric of our society. In the face of the challenges that are there, we really need to support the 145,000 jobs. We need to support our farmers, who are the custodians of our land and have been so long before we started to realise we were doing things that were harming our planet. We must ensure the areas that need support get it. Senator Boyhan is right in noting that one of the Seanad electoral panels is the Agricultural Pane and that we should be talking about agriculture, horticulture, marine activity, fishing and forestry much more than we do. I will try to organise that.

I acknowledge Senator Murphy's support for the debate on media proposed by Senator Cassells.

Senator Warfield spoke about his dismay at the Sinn Féin motion on neutrality being defeated. Democracy is all about the numbers. Regarding the Tánaiste's recent announcement, I very much support Ireland taking control of its own security and defences. I look forward to the debate when he publishes the legislation.

Senator Boyhan asked that we take a particular look at the Brexit adjustment fund, which he feels is not being spent appropriately to support agriculture.

Senator Conway commended the Minister for Justice on her response in what has been a tough week and welcomed the announcement of the provision of safety equipment for the Garda.

Senator Cassells opened with the extraordinary statement that X, formerly Twitter, refused to support the Garda last week in respect of the dissemination of huge amounts of disinformation and distorted information, with its representatives then refusing to attend the committee meeting this week. They really do not understand democracy. Elon Musk, however, had no problem telling all his followers on X that the Taoiseach hates the Irish people, which is the most bizarre statement among the very bizarre statements that have come from him. I look forward to scheduling that debate. It is an issue for which we all need to take responsibility because the outcome, if nothing changes, will not be good.

Order of Business agreed to.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 11.01 a.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 11.50 a.m.

Sitting suspended at 11.01 a.m. and resumed at 11.50 a.m.