I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, to the House.
Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters
Irish Aid
Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach as ucht an ábhair seo a roghnú mar cheann de na nithe i dtosach suíonna. The Minister of State is very welcome to the House.
The issue I am raising today relates to Irish Aid activities. I wish to put on record my praise for the manner in which Irish Aid operates. Ireland has a model of humanitarian aid and relief that has been copied by other countries around the world. It is something that comes without strings attached. One of the things that works particularly well is that when Irish Aid selects a programme - the reality is that because of limited resources we pick particular programmes in particular countries around the world, which is to be welcomed - it focuses on that and focuses on getting results rather than requiring the country receiving the aid, as happens with other countries, to buy products from our companies or whatever it may be. I am immensely proud of the way Irish Aid works and we can see the results for the work done by Irish Aid.
One of the areas identified by Irish Aid for particular focus is the occupied Palestinian territories - the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza. Undoubtedly, what has been happening in Gaza has had an effect on Irish Aid activities there. I know there is very close co-operation between Irish Aid and the UN Relief and Works Agency. We have given €68 million to UNRWA since 2005, working to help nearly 6 million Palestinian refugees in that region.
One of the focuses of that is education. That has been very progressive. We have done a lot of really good work. This year alone, I believe Irish Aid has allocated €29 million to the occupied Palestinian territories. Part of that focus, of course, is education. That has been one of the areas Irish Aid has identified to work on with Palestinians in order that they have opportunities and a place to go.
The reality for most people living in the occupied Palestinian territories, particularly in Gaza, is that they are subject to constant human rights abuses and breaches of international law. One of the issues that Irish Aid has identified there is the illegal seizure of land and demolition of homes. These are huge problems. It is disruptive, as well as being illegal.
I was in Gaza in 2005 post disengagement, after the Israelis settlements there were demolished and the Israeli settlers were removed from the Gaza Strip. At the same time, the Israel Defense Forces were flying in over Gaza City what are known as sonic bombs where they fly in fighter jets at supersonic speeds at a low altitude creating a sonic boom over a highly populated area. It is collective punishment. It is a war crime and it is against the law in no uncertain terms. That is not unusual for people living in that area.
Obviously in recent times that situation has escalated beyond any recognition. The destruction that has been wreaked on Gaza City in the northern end of the Gaza Strip and spreading increasingly farther south has meant that projects funded by Irish Aid have been destroyed. In education, for example, one of the things Irish Aid has done is build schools and invest in physical infrastructure in the Gaza Strip to support Palestinians living there. Many of those projects have now been completely destroyed. My question for the Minister of State this morning is: what are we going to do about it?
Obviously, Ireland is a small, militarily non-aligned country. We are probably not Israel's favourite country at the moment, judging by the way its representatives have interacted with us in the media, as well as diplomatically. The illegal actions of Israel at the moment - assuming they are illegal as I believe they are - have resulted in the destruction of projects funded by Irish taxpayers' money. What are we going to do about that? Are we going to take legal action against Israel for the destruction of our projects? What are we going to do to bring to Israel's door the fact that its illegal actions have destroyed projects paid for by Irish taxpayers?
I endorse the Senator's praise of Irish Aid. I saw its fantastic work at first hand in Africa earlier this year.
I am appalled by the humanitarian situation in Gaza and the scale of civilian casualties with more than 18,000 people killed and approximately 1.9 million people or 85% of the population displaced. The Government utterly condemned the heinous attacks by Hamas on 7 October, which saw 1,200 Israelis brutally killed. The Government continues to call for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire, for an increase in humanitarian access and for the protection of civilians. Hostages held by Hamas in Gaza must also be released immediately and unconditionally.
I welcome the outcome of the vote in the UN General Assembly on the situation in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories. Ireland was in a group of 17 EU member states to vote in favour. It is encouraging to see such overwhelming support among the international community for this resolution.
I am grateful to UN Secretary-General Guterres for his leadership throughout this crisis. The Taoiseach is attending a meeting of EU leaders today where this is one of the issues to be discussed. He will call on EU leaders to insist on an immediate humanitarian ceasefire.
Irish Aid funding to the Palestinian people, including in both the West Bank and Gaza, amounted to over €61 million in the period 2021 to 2023. We provided almost €17 million in 2021, another €17 million in 2022 and €36 million in 2023 in support to the occupied Palestinian territory and support to Palestinian refugees through UNRWA. During this time, Ireland's programme of assistance focused on targeted interventions seeking to maintain the space for a two-state solution. Ireland is a long-standing and committed supporter of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine refugees in the near east. UNRWA delivers essential services, including in education and health to a population of some 5.7 million registered Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, the West Bank and Gaza. In March 2021, Ireland signed a memorandum of understanding with UNRWA pledging predictable funding of €6 million per year over the course of 2021 to 2023. In practice, Ireland has provided significantly more than €6 million per year to UNRWA. In response to developments, we have provided a total of €35 million to UNRWA for the three years 2021 to 2023. This year alone, we have provided €18 million, including €10 million in the aftermath of the Hamas attacks and the Israeli military operation in Gaza.
Ireland also supports the core humanitarian work by the UN in the occupied territory, which includes monitoring and reporting on the humanitarian situation, advocating for humanitarian access, the protection of humanitarian space and respect for international humanitarian law. Ireland also supports the occupied territories humanitarian fund, a pooled funding mechanism designed to allocate funds quickly for unexpected emergencies or unforeseen events. Ireland’s total funding to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs in Palestine since 2021 amounts to €6 million, of which €4.445 million was provided to assist in the response to the humanitarian emergency in Gaza in the aftermath of 7 October.
Education is a key focus of Ireland’s work in Palestine, and is crucial to Palestine’s long-term economic viability. In the past three years, Ireland has provided €9 million in total to a joint financing arrangement, JFA, which supports the Palestinian Authority’s Ministry of Education in strengthening the quality and accessibility of the education system, improving capacity and providing equitable access to quality education for Palestinian children. The JFA is considered one of the most effective means of donor support in Palestine.
In the field of higher education, the Ireland-Palestine scholarship programme continued to run successfully from over the past three years. Over this time period, 60 fellows from the West Bank and Gaza were awarded fellowships to study on a master's programme in Ireland for one year, including 22 this year.
Ireland is committed to funding for the Palestinian people which addresses basic needs, supports international organisations and provides for a better future for all. Our commitment in current circumstances is more needed than ever before.
I join with the Minister of State in his condemnation of the Hamas attacks. They were so senseless, so selfish that they have sacrificed Palestinian children for the cause of Hamas. Nobody shies away from the criticism of Hamas in that regard. I watched the UN General Assembly the night before last and the vote that was presided over by Dennis Francis. I agree that it is good that the motion for a ceasefire has been passed. I am disappointed by how few European Union states saw fit to vote for it. I do not understand the rhetoric of Israel that says that somehow, Gazans would be safer if there were not a ceasefire, because they are entitled to be governed by people other than Hamas. While I agree with that aim, there is no way Gazans are safer without a ceasefire. That makes absolutely no sense at all.
I praise the Government's stance on this and I am disappointed by Israel's continuous use of rhetoric and spin on the issue, where I think their position is absolutely indefensible. However, the question has not been answered. What are we going to do about the fact that Irish taxpayers' money to the tune of €36 million this year, more than I even realised, has been destroyed and wasted by the Israel Defense Forces and their illegal actions in Gaza. What are we going to do about it?
I think the focus at the moment is to achieve peace, to achieve first an immediate and lasting ceasefire and then second to provide humanitarian access into Gaza. Our focus at the moment is not on recovering lost sums of money, damaged property or interrupted projects, as distressing as that may be. The first priority has to be to achieve peace. I agree with the Senator. Although Israel, of course, like any country, has a right to defend itself, they have gone too far. They are at the point now, I think, where Israel is losing support around the world from its allies. We are in a situation where the wanton killing of women and children - the majority the people being killed are of course civilians, the vast majority. They are not all Hamas fighters. The vast majority of the civilians being killed are women and children. This is unconscionable and unbearable and it has to stop. As I have detailed in the answer, Ireland has been very much involved in providing funding for projects in Gaza. I know both the Tánaiste and the Minister, Deputy Coveney before him were personally very committed towards that work. I think that Irish people have a deep connection and sympathy with Palestinian people. Our first priority has to be to achieve peace and I know the Tánaiste, Deputy Micheál Martin, is working for that today with other European leaders.
National Cultural Institutions
I thank the Cathaoirleach for selecting this matter. I am delighted to have the chance to talk about our national cultural institutions, particularly the National Library of Ireland, which on 20 November was granted permission by Dublin City Council for the redevelopment of the Kildare Street west wing refurbishment. The last time I asked out the national cultural institutions on a Commencement matter was 26 May, so I am delighted to be here this year to talk about the NLI. I was looking over the application to Dublin City Council, the planning permission that was granted. The development will consist of the conservation, refurbishment and adaptation of the existing west wing of the National Library of Ireland, the former book storage facility which some members of the culture committee had the chance in the last term to view. There will be a reconfigured entrance ramp off Kildare Street, a rear courtyard, the construction of a new six-storey circulation core, an extension in the rear courtyard. The proposal will provide new cultural experience comprising exhibition spaces, education spaces, café space, retail space, public facilities and ancillary accommodation. There will be a partial removal of the existing cast iron floor structure at mezzanine levels and its reuse within the proposal encompassing structural upgrade works to support these floors. I am kind of geeking out on the planning application here, as Members will appreciate. It is a wonderful plan.
Democracy is built on the ability of citizens and residents to educate themselves and one another, and to make informed decisions. It follows that the library is one of the most, if not the most democratic of all our public institutions. This is the National Library of Ireland we are talking about. I am interested in the redevelopment plans that will truly democratise this institution. In 2018, as the Minister of State knows, the Government launched the Project Ireland 2040 plan for culture and heritage, including €460 million in investment for the national cultural institutions. Our NCIs are a precious resource. They protect, preserve and give access to our country's memory. They are centres of performance and learning and offer citizens and residents opportunities to unlock their creative potential.
In the remaining time I have, now that planning permission has been granted by Dublin City Council, I hope the Minister of State will be able to tell us when contracting and procurement will begin, and when the Department of public expenditure and the Department of culture will sign off on the moneys required for construction. What is the estimated cost of construction at this point? I saw this morning on the National Library's website that the library was established in 1877 by the Dublin Science and Art Museum Act. That means our national library in 2027 will be 150 years old. Is it the Minister of State's hope, as it is mine, for these works to be completed for the 150th anniversary? That would be something very special. I welcome the Minister of State's response on these issues and any indication of when plans and construction will begin.
I thank the Acting Chair and Senator Warfield. I will provide an overview on reimagining the National Library of Ireland, NLI, capital development project under the national development plan as the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, cannot be with us today.
On completion the project will be the most significant investment in the National Library of Ireland since the main building on Kildare Street opened in 1890. To date, significant progress has been made on the NLI redevelopment project with the completion of the following elements so far. First, a new book repository opened in June of 2019 in the NLI's 1827 wing with state-of-the-art safety features. The repository effectively safeguards a substantial proportion of the national published collections bringing them from poor conditions into modern safe storage. The repository comprises 4,700 linear m of state-of-the-art storage with fire suppression installation and a system for early smoke detection.
Second, a new prints and drawing store was refurbished and fitted out in 2019. The NLI has more than 100,000 prints and drawings created by hundreds of artists and engravers. They are a fascinating visual record of Ireland from the 17th century to today. The collection includes individual prints, albums, original drawings, watercolours, architectural drawings, portraits and typographical works. The prints and drawings store is environmentally controlled and has been fitted with large dedicated storage cabinets suitable for storing this important collection.
Third, in 2023, a newly restored art room opened following the conversion of the large art book room from storage to a space for use as a visual collections reading room and reception space for communications and development activity. Despite the disruption of the pandemic to this development the space is now fitted with new lighting, CCTV, access control, automatic light-controlling blinds, and new bookshelves. The hardwood flooring was refinished and the room fully redecorated with furniture to make the space more suitable for the new intended uses.
Fourth, a new manuscript reading room can now be accessed by researchers via the interconnected NLI office building. It is accessible with a newly installed shared WC and high-performance vacuum glazing units, which significantly improve sound and thermal insulation. There are new power and data outlets as well as LED lighting. The desk lighting was designed and built in Ireland and incorporates 3D- printed bespoke parts in addition to traditional brass craftsmanship, acoustic insulation hanging on the walls to improve the acoustic properties of the room, and the ceiling lighting has been renewed with LED fittings along with new CCTV.
Next to the initial phase in the NLI redevelopment also involves a complete decant of the west wing and an audit of collections with 350,000 items stored in Victorian book stacks that were there since the building opened in the 19th century. There were no environmental controls and no fire measures whatsoever as well as open Victorian drains. All of the contents of the west wing have now been moved out and stacks and shelving have been removed as part of the initial phase of redevelopment. Following the decant of the west wing opening up works and surveys commenced to determine in greater detail the condition of the building including the roof, windows and structure. Soil investigation established the ground and boundary conditions to inform the design process for the proposed extension. Non-original partitions and fittings were removed and new fire separation works were installed to ensure adequate fire safety separation between the planned construction area and the rest of the NLI main building, which continues to operate in public services.
Upgrading measures have been undertaken, including the provision of secondary window glazing, to contribute to thermal and acoustic insulation providing an enhanced working environment. This and other measures have contributed to NLI having reduced its energy usage by the end of 2022 by over 52% compared to 2009. A new lecture theatre is currently under development and near completion. This ground floor facility will replace the pre-existing seminar room. Members will have been disappointed that the new lecture room was not available for the commemoration of the award of the Nobel Prize to William Butler Yeats who was a Member of this House. I understand that the OPW working with NLI will ensure that this facility will be available in 2024.
Finally, the NLI is currently going through the planning process for other elements of the library redevelopment and like many other capital projects construction inflation has increased the cost above the €23 million funding allocation provided for investing in our culture language and heritage. This is incorporated in the library's preliminary business case for further redevelopment presented to the Department recently. Additional costs will be subject of discussion with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform in the new year.
It is certainly not the Minister of State's fault but the Minister, Deputy Martin, and the Department have spectacularly avoided answering the only question that I asked on when construction will begin. All I can do is encourage the Department and say that I am sure they have the support of this House. The refurbishment of the National Gallery of Ireland led the way. It is a beautiful redevelopment showing what can be achieved with investment. Many of these institutions have never seen overall redevelopment. Promises have been made in the past and in many ways the Investing in our Culture, Language and Heritage 2018-2027 capital plan is a political wish list. These developments are critical not only for artefacts but also for universal access and for audience safety.
The Minister of State mentioned Yeats. The six floors will provide an exhibition space for the Yeats and Heaney exhibitions and space for poets and writers. Speaking selfishly as a Dub, this would be an incredible hub for our city.
There is one other issue that I want to put on record. The NLI has a responsibility to collect every publication in the State. They also purchase and get donations of collections. They do not, however, have a similar right when it comes to digital online material. These Houses need to give them that right under the copyright Acts to collect and preserve our country's memory given that online websites disappear every day, including repeal the 8th amendment websites and marriage equality websites. They are all disappearing and creating a black hole in our country's memory. We need to give the library a right to collect online material before we lose our nation's memory.
As I have outlined, eight elements of the NLI redevelopment have been completed. The planning permission process is being worked through for the next element but until the library has permission and until it is approved by the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, we will not know when construction is going to start. It is obviously a particular challenge to redevelop an historic library. On the one hand, we must preserve the heritage while, on the other, we want to make sure it is protected against fire and protect the vital assets. We also want to make it disability-friendly so the facilities are accessible. There are competing requirements there. It is a difficult thing to achieve but they are making progress.
The Senator made a very good point about digital archives. We know how long a sheet of paper or a piece of papyrus will last and we know that we can keep those things but how long will digitised formats last? He also made the point that as a copyright library, it is entitled to a copy of every published item in the UK or Ireland but does it have access to digitally published items? This is worth discussing. We are not going to do it right now but it is something for a committee to discuss, and maybe the committee that the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, sits on. It is a worthwhile question to raise.
I thank the Minister of State. Well done to Senator Warfield for raising this extremely important issue today. I wish him and his family a very happy Christmas.
Health Service Executive
Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. The HSE boasts on its website that it is "the largest property owner in the State, so staying on top of all our facilities is key to the smooth functioning of our entire health system". Among the main strategic objectives of the HSE estates section are: "To provide appropriate facilities that serve and accommodate patients and staff in a relaxed, nurturing and caring environment and support the delivery of clinical services" and "To maximize the use of our buildings and land bank to optimise its value and to reduce costs." I appreciate that the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, is taking this on behalf of the Minister for Health but he has a responsibility for public procurement. The Minister of State will be very aware of how we measure these types of objectives. I have to bring up again in this House the issue about how HSE estates are managing two particular projects: one is the planned primary care centre for Gorey, County Wexford, and the other is the former HSE clinic at Camolin, County Wexford.
Let us deal with the primary care centre in the first instance. This was conceived more than a decade ago and planning permission was granted in August 2018. The Minister of State will be aware that permission lasts for five years and, therefore, it is not clear whether planning will continue.
In the spring of 2021, when the HSE was contacted about this, it asserted that everything was on track. When I raised this issue in here again in May 2022, I was told that the project was still on track, but there were some car parking issues. In November 2022, I raised this issue again as a Commencement matter. I have to raise it as a Commencement matter because I cannot get answers from the HSE. Again, it said there were some car parking issues.
To try to move this on, at the beginning of November I arranged a meeting with the Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, and the relevant officials. In fact, the Minister could not even believe it. He said that even the national children's hospital, with all its delays and overruns, has taken less time than this primary care centre in Gorey. However, we were assured at that meeting, which was more than a month ago, that decisions would be imminent with regard to this primary care centre. However, I must not know the meaning of "imminent", because since that time I have been unable to get answers from the HSE about what action would be taken.
The pressures in Gorey are particularly acute. In inter-census period from 2016 to 2022, the population of the town grew by 20% and the LEA has grown by 14%. You can, therefore, imagine the additional pressures that are being placed on health services in the area.
Let us look, then, at the other area I want to raise, which is the former HSE clinic in Camolin. I refer to this regarding how the HSE speaks about maximising the use of buildings. In 2014, the HSE closed this building. In 2018, it indicated that it was offering it for local use to various agencies and, if that failed, it would put it on the market. A number of locals even inquired about local use, but they failed to get an answer. That was in 2018. By May 2022, we were told this was still being done but that this time the title of the building was being checked. When I raised it as a Commencement matter in May 2022, the Minister of State at the time, Deputy Feighan, agreed that this was not acceptable, but said he had been informed that the process was almost complete. In November 2022, I raised this issue again in this House with the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton. I raised all the same issues again. However, in this case, she said that the building could be used to house Ukrainian families and that was being considered. The local community in Camolin welcomed this at a time when we were searching for accommodation. This was more than a year ago and yet nothing has happened.
We had the meeting with the Minister at the beginning of last month, on November 13. We were told by HSE estates at the meeting that action in Camolin would be taken within the following week. Yet, I have been unable to get any answers. Quite frankly, I am exasperated by this. The HSE has more than 400 properties right around the country that are being underutlised or derelict. The the HSE is failing to meet the objectives I set out earlier. The Minister of State is responsible for public procurement. Does he have confidence that HSE estates is able to effectively meet the objectives it has set out for itself?
The Minister for Health has asked me to reply on his behalf and give an update to the House on this matter. As the Senator will be aware, a central objective of the programme for Government is to deliver increased levels of integrated healthcare with service delivery oriented towards general practice, primary care and community-based services to enable a home-first approach. Integral to this is the development of primary care centres across the country in our local communities. Significant progress has been made in the delivery of these primary care centres. Some 172 have now been opened and a further nine are in construction. These primary care centres offer a tangible example of the investment this Government is making in community-based healthcare infrastructure.
As the Senator may be aware, management and administrative grade staff in the Fórsa union in the HSE commenced industrial action on Friday, 6 October. Due to this industrial action, members in these grades are not engaging with political forums or processes. The Minister has been unable to receive an update on progress to date. The HSE confirmed that planning permission has been secured. However, as the Senator is aware, the new primary care centre has been delayed due to the proposals not meeting the HSE’s car parking requirements. The Minister is aware that the Senator has raised this issue numerous times. The Senator will be aware from previous updates on the Gorey primary care centre and from the recent meeting with the Minister and south east community healthcare that the HSE has been engaging in ongoing discussions with the developer regarding the provision of these additional car parking spaces. The HSE has advised that the developer has identified possible car parking options, and should these be deemed acceptable, the proposal will be resubmitted for board approval. Unfortunately, as noted, due to the ongoing industrial action, no further update is available at this time.
Regarding the HSE clinic building at Camolin, County Wexford, this building is owned freehold by the HSE and is currently vacant. Where property in HSE estates is identified as surplus to health requirements, these are available for disposal. Disposals of property by the HSE are conducted in accordance with the HSE’s property protocol. The HSE’s property protocol fully reflects the requirements of circulars by the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform on the disposal of surplus property, and the protocol satisfies the obligations of section 53 of Land Development Agency Act.
The Land Development Agency is advised prior to the disposal of any property of its availability and is invited to declare its interest in acquiring the property before it is put on the open market for sale. Should the Land Development Agency have no requirement for an offered property, the property is then offered via the State property register to other State entities and the local authority in the area. If there is no State stakeholder interest, the property may be disposed of on the open market.
The former healthcare centre building in Camolin, County Wexford, was identified as surplus to health requirements and made available for disposal in line with the HSE’s property protocol. I can confirm that the former healthcare centre at Camolin is progressing through the stages of the HSE property protocol. The building was offered to the LDA and included in the list of properties offered to Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage for potential use for housing. The local authority has expressed an interest in acquiring the property. The HSE will engage with the local authority in accordance with the HSE property protocol.
I am not quite sure how to respond to this. The only information that is new in this statement is the fact that the building is held freehold in Camolin. Finally we know that this title issue raised by the HSE was a nonsense. Next year, we will be celebrating the tenth anniversary of the failure of the HSE estates to do anything. The Minister of State's own Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform is cited here with regard to a circular. He can hardly be satisfied that this is how to effectively manage public expenditure.
There is this nonsense about the primary care centre because we are again getting the same answers around car parking. I appreciate the answer about the Fórsa trade union. Yet, there is nothing in this that I have not been told a year or 18 months ago, or that people were not told four years ago. I have no confidence in HSE estates to manage any of these properties.
I will make a more general point about the crisis we face with regard to accommodation on a whole range of levels. The HSE continues to have more than 400 buildings around the State that it has left either derelict or unused. The organisation is not fit for purpose.
This building and project are exceptional. As the Senator knows, 172 primary healthcare centres have been set up by the HSE around the country. One of them is about to open in my constituency in Dún Laoghaire. Clearly, there has been a transformation in primary healthcare. Yet, this project is not going well and I think the Minister for Health and everybody involves accepts that fact.
The Senator refers to public procurement. Under European public procurement law, the acquisition of buildings is specifically excluded from procurement rules. However, there are, of course, protocols around acquiring and disposing property. The actions around that have to match the rules that are set forth in circulars by the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform. If the Senator wants to work with me to see if there has been some breach of those rules, I would be happy to look at that with him. That is from my point of view in the Department of public expenditure and reform. The Senator may want to report anything to me that he thinks is not right or he may feel something should be done differently.
There is an acknowledgement from the Minister for Health that this project has not gone well. He is not satisfied with the amount of information he has on it or the length of time it has taken to carry out. However, this is an exception in the HSE's property management. It is the largest property manager in the State. I know that because I am involved in upgrading its facilities for energy efficiency. It has the largest targets and the largest opportunities for improvement. If I can help the Senator in any way in the future, I ask him to please contact me directly. I will pass on his concerns to the Minister for Health.
I want to commend Senator Malcolm Byrne, who has constantly raised this issue in the House. I know how important it is to the people of Gorey and Camolin. I say "Well done" on that. I wish him and his family a very happy Christmas. Our final Commencement matter is from Senator Pauline O'Reilly.
Citizens' Assembly
The Minister of State is very welcome. I am raising the issue of the citizens' assembly on education this morning. I am failing in my efforts to find a date for this citizens' assembly.
That is why I, unfortunately, have had to call the Minister of State to the Seanad. Under this Government, a number of successful citizens’ assemblies have been held. I am passionate about the process. For that reason, we sought to include a citizens’ assembly on education in the programme for Government. It is the final citizens’ assembly in the programme. I say “final”, but it did not have to be the last one. A decision was made somewhere along the line that it would be, though.
I am anxious. With the Citizens’ Assembly on Biodiversity Loss, we knew that we would be facing into a citizens’ assembly on drugs directly afterwards. That assembly concluded its hearings in October. We are two months on and there are still zero updates on a citizens’ assembly on education.
As the Minister of State knows, I was the Vice-Chair of the Joint Committee on Gender Equality, which examined the recommendations of the Citizens’ Assembly on Gender Equality. We made our recommendations, following which there will be a referendum in March. I am also on the Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action, which has held hearings on the biodiversity citizens’ assembly. We are actually due to launch our report on that matter on the plinth at 11 a.m. A key part of the biodiversity citizens’ assembly was a children and youth assembly. Young people appeared before our committee and a member of the Department of Education was in the Public Gallery observing how to engage with young people in a citizens’ assembly-type forum.
I know that the work is under way. I simply want an update on it and a date. I want to know that young people will be involved in the citizens’ assembly, preferably in the same room as the adults, as they have so much experience to lend. I would also like an update on the expert body that is considering the terms of reference. This citizens’ assembly should be as broad as possible to start. That is the way the gender equality assembly was organised. Out of that, we had recommendations that took people by surprise. The deliberative process of a citizens’ assembly allowed people to think about what really mattered to people living in Ireland. That is how we should run the education assembly. My background is in alternative forms of education, having been chair of Home Education Network Ireland, one of the founders of the Steiner school in Galway and chair of that school’s board. We need to be innovative in terms of education.
I have been asked by the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, to address this matter on her behalf and to update the House on the Department of Education's position as regards the citizens’ assembly on education.
The programme for Government committed to establishing four citizens’ assemblies on the topics of biodiversity loss, the type of directly elected mayor and local government structures best suited to Dublin, matters relating to drugs use and the future of education. Three of these citizens’ assemblies have now been held. The citizens' assemblies on local government in Dublin and biodiversity loss have concluded their work and reports and recommendations have been submitted to the Oireachtas in line with their terms of reference. The Citizens’ Assembly on Drugs Use recently held its final meeting and its final report is scheduled to be published in due course.
A further citizens’ assembly on the future of education, ensuring that the voices of young people and those being educated are central, is committed to in the programme for Government. It will be a matter for the Oireachtas to agree the timeline and terms of reference for that citizens’ assembly. Citizens’ assemblies operate independently of the Government, with secretariat support provided by the Department of the Taoiseach. To date, the Department of Education has not received confirmation from the Department of the Taoiseach that a decision about the establishment of, or timeline for, a citizens’ assembly on the future of education has been made. However, to help ensure that the Department of Education is prepared for any announcement or decision regarding that assembly, officials have engaged in ongoing contact with the Department of the Taoiseach and ongoing discussion with key stakeholders across school communities on the programme for Government commitment, and will continue to do so.
The commitment in the programme for Government states that the voices of young people and those being educated will be central to the assembly. The impact that children and young people have on shaping their own learning experiences is a focus of the work of the Department of Education. The meaningful participation of children and young people in the process is strongly supported. The potential of a citizens' assembly on the future of education to enhance the ongoing consultative work of the Department of Education and aid future development and planning work is also recognised. Further to any Government decision and resolutions of the Dáil and Seanad regarding the citizens’ assembly, Department of Education officials will provide appropriate information and support as may be requested by the assembly. The views of parents, teachers, school leaders and all those in school communities who help shape our education system will also continue to be carefully listened to.
The commitment in the programme for Government to establish a citizens’ assembly on the future of education is welcome. It is understood that the establishment of this assembly will be the subject of a Government decision and resolutions of the Dáil and Seanad at the appropriate time.
With due respect to the Minister of State, when I last raised a Commencement matter, it related to his Department, yet it was the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, who took it. Today, I am raising an education matter and the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, is taking it. Neither situation is desirable.
It sounds like the Minister of State’s response was written by departmental officials and the Minister for Education has not had sight of it. It effectively says that the issue has nothing to do with the Department of Education and that there needs to be a Government resolution. The Minister for Education is one of 15 Ministers who sits at the Cabinet and makes the decisions. The response I was seeking was from her, not departmental officials. In this response, she is effectively a mouthpiece for them.
The response started by saying that a resolution was a matter for the Oireachtas. It ended by saying that it was a matter for the Government, that is, the Cabinet. If it is a matter for the Oireachtas, then I, as a Member of the Oireachtas, am saying that I want this citizens’ assembly to start immediately in January. I know that will not happen, though, because it is the Minister for Education who is a member of the Cabinet and who makes a decision on when the assembly will be held.
I want the Minister for Education to give a proper response. I want the Department of the Taoiseach to give a proper response. It is two months since the Citizens’ Assembly on Drugs Use. While the biodiversity assembly was ongoing, we knew when the drugs assembly would start. Something political is delaying this assembly. Young people are approaching me.
I understand the frustration of departmental officials on this matter, as I know they are working on it, but what I have received today is not a response about progress at all.
I thank the Acting Chair for his leniency.
Not at all.
I understand the Senator’s frustration. The Government has set up and run three citizens’ assemblies, so the process is understood and not forgotten. I was involved in getting the Citizens’ Assembly on Drugs Use up and running, so I understand that it involves the relevant Department putting together proposals and sending them to the Department of the Taoiseach. Preparatory work has to be done by both Departments before a Government decision is made. Once that decision is made, it needs to be brought to the Oireachtas, so the Oireachtas is not the first step in the process at all.
In the case of the Citizens’ Assembly on Drugs Use, the Department of Health put together its proposals and sent them to the Department of the Taoiseach. That makes sense, as the Senator can agree. At first, the idea was for the Department of the Taoiseach to run the assembly, but it explained to the Department of Health that the latter would need to make proposals. That is the process.
I will discuss this matter directly with the Minister, Deputy Foley, when I see her next. We are working together on the schools solar panel project, which will provide free solar panels to every school in Ireland. It will be a wonderful and successful project. The next time I speak to her about it, which I am sure will be shortly, I will ask her how we can progress the citizens’ assembly on the future of education.
I thank the Senator for raising an important issue. Education is important for our country and our young people in terms of the economy and their personal development. A citizens’ assembly in that regard is most desirable. I wish the Senator and her family a happy Christmas.
I thank the Minister of State for his time this morning. I know he is busy trying to get things wrapped up before Christmas.
It is an honour to be here.
The Seanad appreciates the Minister of State’s time and we wish him and his family a happy Christmas as well.
Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 10.21 a.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 10.30 a.m.
Sitting suspended at 10.21 a.m. and resumed at 10.30 a.m.