I welcome the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Micheál Martin. It is good to see the Minister with responsibility in the House. I thank him for being here.
Human Rights in China: Motion
I move:
“That Seanad Éireann:
notes:
- the hugely significant contribution of the Chinese people to the development of global culture and trade;
- the recent visit of Chinese Premier Li Qiang to Ireland;
- the increasingly authoritarian behaviour of the Chinese Communist Party and its oppression of minorities and repression of human rights;
supports:
- the desire for friendly relationships between the peoples of China and of Ireland and the European Union;
- the views expressed by the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs in May 2023 at the Royal Irish Academy, Dublin, on Ireland’s relationship with China and in particular, his call for China, like every other United Nations member, to adhere to its human rights obligation;
expresses concern at and opposition to:
- the continued detention of Jimmy Lai, a peaceful pro-democracy campaigner and publisher, who has been falsely imprisoned for three years under charges brought under the Chinese National Security Law, whose provisions are inconsistent with international human rights law;
- the reported use of coerced testimony in cases relating to the National Security Law;
- the repression of independent media and democratic activists in Hong Kong;
- the ongoing efforts of the Chinese Communist Party to destroy the culture of the people of Tibet and the abuse of the rights of Tibetans;
- the genocide being perpetuated in Xinjiang against the Uyghur and other groups;
- the repression of religious minorities, including Christians and the Falun Gong;
- the use of new technologies to engage in widescale surveillance of citizens and the development of a surveillance society;
notes with alarm:
- the growing tensions in the South China Sea and affirms the right of the people of Taiwan to live in peace and free from ongoing threat;
calls on the Government to:
- continue to use bilateral and multilateral channels, including through the European Union and the United Nations, to support the protection of human rights in China, Hong Kong, Xinjiang and Tibet, and of Chinese citizens internationally;
- actively support the release of journalists and pro-democracy activists unlawfully detained under the Chinese National Security Law;
- oppose the misuse of Artificial Intelligence or any emerging technology for any purpose that undermines human rights; and
- conduct an economic analysis of the ownership of assets in Ireland by companies linked to the Chinese Government and the potential impact of various foreseeable scenarios in the Taiwan Strait upon the Irish economy."
I propose to share time with Senator McGreehan.
To echo the points of the Cathaoirleach, I welcome the Tánaiste to the Chamber on this particular issue which is a very serious one. It is an opportunity for this House and, indeed, the Government to stress how human rights should always underpin Ireland's foreign policy and that we expect all members of the United Nations, regardless of size, to have respect for the dignity of the individual.
This motion stresses that this country has enormous respect for China and that we should always seek to build friendships and to co-operate, particularly in tackling some of the global challenges, including climate change. We should always look to promote cultural exchange in trade and, indeed, we should seek to promote greater understanding between the European Union and China. That said, we cannot and must not turn a blind eye to the evidence of continuing human rights abuses by Beijing and we need to continue to highlight values that are important to us and to other members of the European Union such as the rule of law, respect for minorities, due process and individual liberties.
The Tánaiste will be aware that China's human rights record was examined by the UN Human Rights Council's Universal Periodic Review working group in Geneva. I am particularly glad that Ireland played an active role in this discussion. Indeed, according to media reports, Ireland's ambassador, H.E. Mr. Noel White, stated that Ireland was "deeply concerned about the continued repression of civil society in China, including harassment of human rights defenders, restrictions on freedom of expression ... and the treatment of ethnic and religious groups, including in Xinjiang and Tibet." I strongly welcome the fact that Ireland is continuing to raise these issues at the United Nations and at European Union level as well as bilaterally.
It is important to acknowledge the Tánaiste's speech last May at the Royal Irish Academy. It was a significant speech. It set out clearly that we want to have constructive relations with China but that we will always stress the importance of human rights in our foreign policy and we will call out where the repression of human rights is taking place, and that includes in China.
I welcome the fact that, certainly, in the statements last week during the visit of Li Qiang, the Chinese Premier, to Ireland that the Tánaiste and the Taoiseach made, human rights were central to those discussions. This has not always featured in statements from the Department of Foreign Affairs in the past. Indeed, I would argue that sometimes human rights almost appeared as an afterthought. In recent times, however, it is clear that human rights is front and centre in terms of some of the discussions.
The fact that Irish beef exports to China are to resume is welcome. The right of Irish citizens to be able to visit China for up to 15 days without a visa is welcome. Exchange and the opportunity to see another country is something that is welcome. I have had the pleasure of visiting a number of cities in China. It is an amazing country. These are welcome measures but it is clear that China does not come to visit Ireland or other countries on a goodwill mission. There will be an expectation that there will be some level of reciprocity. It is important for the Government to be transparent as to any requests that were made on the part of Chinese Government during the visit to Ireland last week and if there were any reciprocal arrangements sought and, indeed, any promises that may be given on behalf of the Government here.
Last April, I had the privilege of welcoming Sebastien Lai to these Houses. I had the opportunity to briefly introduce him to the Tánaiste. Sebastien is the son of Jimmy Lai, the founder of newspaper Apple Daily in Hong Kong. His is a story of somebody who went from rags to riches. He was a self-made businessman who cared passionately about people and cared passionately about Hong Kong, but he is currently being detained, as the Tánaiste will be aware, under China's national security law. This law has curtailed civil liberties and eroded judicial independence in Hong Kong. His arrest and ongoing detention is simply because he spoke out for democracy and for a free, fair and balanced press in Hong Kong.
I ask the Tánaiste, in his remarks this evening, to give a clear commitment that he will continue to raise this case and that of many others in Hong Kong who have been arrested, prosecuted or imprisoned by the Hong Kong Government for simply engaging in peaceful protest or, indeed, for expressing their international human rights. It is a case that the world is watching what is happening in Hong Kong. It was an amazing and great city but, clearly, we are seeing the deterioration of a once-great city and a lot of that is due to how the Chinese Communist Party is enforcing the national security law.
Indeed, while much of the world's focus may be on the ongoing horrors in the Middle East, we need to continue to also ensure that other conflicts and acts of repression and oppression around the world remain on the global agenda. That has been core to the work the Tánaiste has been doing. This, obviously, includes Russia's invasion of Ukraine and, indeed, Iran's ongoing campaign of repression and actions that are also happening in Africa, but at times we have not paid sufficient levels of attention to what has been happening in China.
It is appalling how China has been treating some of its minorities. The treatment of the Uyghur people in Xinjiang and others in that province, and the repression of their culture, are not acceptable. When we are effectively seeing concentration camps being operated by the Chinese Communist Party and efforts to destroy a culture, that is something we cannot accept.
In this country, there has been a long appreciation of the Tibetan people and Tibetan culture. The way in which that very rich culture has been repressed and the Chinese Communist Party has sought to wipe out Tibetan culture continues to be of deep concern. I ask the Tánaiste, as our representatives have done in Geneva today, to continue to raise those concerns.
We know of ongoing attempts to crush minority religious beliefs. Various faiths have raised this concern. I value deeply the right of freedom of religion and expression and there are issues concerning how Christians are oppressed and members of Falun Gong have been treated. We have to ensure those issues remain very much on in the international agenda.
The motion also makes reference to Taiwan. It is crucial that we ensure there is respect for the right of the Taiwanese people to live in peace. I will not comment on some of the Taoiseach's remarks last week and I appreciate the difficulties that arise when we talk about the principle of the One China policy. We need to recognise that it is the right of the Taiwanese people to determine their future. We also need to recognise the contribution Taiwan has made on the global stage. Ireland should continue to develop positive relations with Taiwan.
Before he leaves, I want to welcome Deputy Cormac Devlin, the Deputy Government Whip, and his delegation and friends to the Seanad. They are very welcome and I thank them for being here. I am sorry, Senator.
The Tánaiste will also be aware of the role artificial intelligence in playing in emerging technologies and in transforming all of our lives. There has to be concern that AI will be used in a way that is for the public good and that we will not see it misused. There has to be deep concern about evidence of China using technologies for the purposes of creating a surveillance society and stamping on the rights of its own people. At a multilateral level, when we take an active part in shaping global AI policy, we must ensure the principles rest on those human rights principles that are core to our foreign policy.
I am very appreciative and proud of the strong stance the Tánaiste has taken to ensure that Ireland's foreign policy remains human rights-led. In our continuing good relations with China, while we want to be friendly and engage in trade, it is critical that human rights remain at the top of the agenda.
I second the motion and thank Senator Byrne for moving it. The Tánaiste is very welcome to our debate, which is a good opportunity to speak about China, particularly after the recent visit.
There are so many things, as Senator Byrne said, that are wonderful about China. However, none of us can hide from the many things that need our attention and action. Our motion outlines the continued detention of Jimmy Lai, a peaceful pro-democracy campaigner; the reported use of coerced testimony in cases involving the national security law; the repression of independent media and democratic activists in Hong Kong; the ongoing efforts of the Chinese Communist Party to destroy the culture of the people of Tibet, and the abuse of the rights of Tibetans; the genocide being perpetuated against the Uyghur people; and the repression of religious minorities, including Christians and Falun Gong.
I will go back to the detention of Jimmy Lai. He is a prominent pro-democracy campaigner and an entrepreneur who has dedicated his life to advocating for democratic principles and standing up against authoritarian rule. His detention sends a chilling message to all the world with regard to how China is suppressing dissenting voices. As we all recognise, it is a clear violation of basic human rights and the right of freedom of expression, which should be protected and respected by all nations.
The implementation of the national security law in Hong Kong has sparked significant concerns. This law grants Beijing unprecedented powers to suppress political dissent and undermine the autonomy promised to Hong Kong under the one country, two systems principle. We need to look at the suppression of independent media and democratic activists in Hong Kong, which we all agree is deeply troubling. We have witnessed the closure of pro-democracy newspapers and media organisations, leaving citizens with limited access to unbiased information. This not only undermines freedom of the press but it also restricts the ability of individuals to make informed decisions and hold their government accountable.
These concerns regarding China should not be overlooked or dismissed as internal matters. They impact us all. China is such a powerful country. This suppression of democracy impacts our world. It undermines the global commitment to human rights and democracy, eroding trust and necessary stability in international relations. It also undermines what we do at the United Nations and our faith in the UN's ability to stop aggression against people's human rights. It is important that Ireland holds China to account for its actions. We have a strong record in upholding human rights and pushing for human rights across the world and, as Senator Byrne said, the Tánaiste is at the forefront of that on many different arguments. We must urge the protection of human rights, freedom of expression and democratic principles. We also need to explore what else we can do to engage with China, emphasising the importance of upholding these rights.
We need to acknowledge Taiwan as more than an economic trading partner. We should further our diplomatic links, as other countries have, and celebrate Taiwan's democracy. It is rare in that part of the world to have free, open and fair elections. Only two weeks ago, Taiwan held a very successful election.
We need to acknowledge the plight of the Uyghur people. A detailed report last year by the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights documented far-reaching, arbitrary and discriminatory restrictions on human rights and fundamental freedoms in violation of international norms and standards.
I only have a few seconds left. As we increase our trade with China, are we compromising our morality for better economic security? We must question our trade agreements with China because in spite of every single aggression against human rights, we are making China richer and supporting ourselves economically through trade but where is the cost-benefit for Irish people in upholding human rights?
Cuirim fáilte roimh an Tánaiste. There is a significant Uyghur population in Ireland, many of whom are Irish citizens. Almost all have seen family members impacted by China's extraordinary campaign that has seen over 1 million Uyghur people imprisoned without trial and subjected to extreme levels of abuse and torture. The Chinese Communist Party has not only detained one in ten of the Uyghur population but it is also seeking to wipe out and suppress the rich Uyghur culture through a campaign of coercive assimilation. This has been widely documented by human rights activists, journalists and scholars and through the harrowing testimony of men and women who have survived these camps and fled China.
The Irish Uyghur Cultural Association, which launches this week, aims to foster a sense of support and belonging for Uyghur people living in Ireland, and to share and celebrate Uyghur culture with the broader Irish population.
Its aims are to protect and support Uyghur language and culture by providing a safe and embracive space for language learning and cultural performance, something which does not exist currently in Ireland, as well as sharing cultural exchange and forging relationships and friendships between Uyghurs and their fellow Irish.
I suspect many of the Uyghur people will regard this motion and the Tánaiste's presence here tonight with mixed feelings. There will be gratitude at one level on the basis that there is at least an attempt to raise issues of human rights - indeed, there is no doubt an acknowledgement that on occasions he does so - but the motion and the Tánaiste's approach in his work for the Government leave something to be desired.
I note there is no use of the words "condemn" or "unacceptable" in the motion. I suspect that when it comes to our dealings with the Chinese Government it is, as I said before, a nod to human rights but a very definite wink to trade. I take this opportunity to greet the representatives of the Chinese Government, who are no doubt monitoring us here tonight, as they are entitled to do. I have great respect for the Chinese people, but no respect for the Chinese Government or the Chinese Communist Party. I think we should all be unequivocal about that, but are we? When Premier Li Qiang came last week I noticed there were no questions allowed from the media. The Irish media seemed very complicit in that and there was no complaint. There was no opportunity for Ben Scallan or Gript to ask any hard questions, or indeed anyone else who might dare ask hard questions of governments these days.
The Chinese Premier's visit clearly demonstrates that the Irish Government regards trade as the main issue of importance when dealing with China. When the Taoiseach was asked about the human rights abuses of the Uyghurs, he said: "I think it's fair to say that they would have a very different view of the facts and would dispute a lot of what has been said about China in the media." I invite the Tánaiste to condemn those shoddy words here tonight. Here is the leader of the Government telling us that the Chinese Premier has a different view of what, for example, the US Government has deemed as genocide, as though this were a question of interpretation rather than of fundamental human rights. These are not just things that are said in the media. This is not fake news or a question of different interpretations; it is a question of whether the violation of human rights should be taken at least as seriously as a trade deal.
A 2022 United Nations report by the then UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Michelle Bachelet, accused the People's Republic of China of committing serious human rights abuses against its Uyghur population and other minority groups. Will the Tánaiste use the word "condemn"? I do not hear it. I do not want to fall out with the proponents of this motion because it is good insofar as it goes, but I remind them that when I and others tabled a similar motion not that long ago we called on the Government to use its diplomatic and trade channels to put pressure on China. That is not in this motion. I got pushback from the Government at the time because I was encouraged to get rid of the idea that the trade channels should be involved. That is the danger of the nod to rights but wink to trade approach.
Despite the arbitrary detention, widespread torture, sexual violence, forced abortions and forced sterilisation of Uyghur women, the forced labour, and all that is going on, we do not get the language of condemnation from our Government. Yet, we claim to be putting human rights at the heart of domestic foreign policy. We claim to celebrate the UN Declaration of Human Rights, but in the face of one of the most serious human rights abuses of our time we welcome the perpetrator with red carpets and open arms. We delight in the win-win narratives of opportunity and co-operation, but for both sides to win here, we cannot have the Dublin Airport Authority wetting itself with enthusiasm on social media about the big aeroplane on the tarmac. That is not the way we normally welcome the abusers of human rights - the destroyers of human life and dignity. For both sides to win here, human rights cannot be taken off the table and the Uyghurs and their culture deemed ultimately disposable.
I urge the Tánaiste to listen to people like Dr. David O'Brien, whose dad comes from my parish of Ahascragh, County Galway. He is a fantastic academic doing great work to highlight the plight of the Uyghur people, and he has personal experience of living among them. He is appalled at the lack of performance of the Irish Government.
We are important to China. We have TikTok, Huawei and other Chinese companies with close connections to the Chinese Communist Party employing ever greater numbers here. The Irish Council for Civil Liberties, ICCL, wrote last year to the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, the Office of Public Works and political party leaders to raise urgent concerns about the use of HIKVision surveillance cameras in Leinster House and Government Buildings. The company, HIKVision, has been shown to provide facial recognition technology used in the surveillance and repression of the Uyghurs. The surveillance system operated by HIKVision targets them based on racial attributes and flags them for detention at mass internment camps. The Chinese Communist Party is a controlling stakeholder in HIKVision and investigations have discovered their devices reporting back to China, yet despite these concerns, nothing was done.
Míle buíochas.
I will conclude by making a reference to Jimmy Lai, who I regard as a modern white martyr. If ever there was someone who deserves to get our human dignity award, if he ever gets out, it is he. This is a man who could be enjoying one of his many properties anywhere in the world but he chose to stay in Hong Kong to fight for democracy. Our Government, among many other governments, is letting people like him down.
Cuirim fáilte roimh an Tánaiste. Gabhaim buíochas leis as ucht a bheith anseo don díospóireacht thábhachtach seo. I want to respond to the last speech in which it was asserted that the approach in this motion is somehow not condemnatory of China. It is very clear from the words used, expressing concern and opposition and outlining a list of serious issues, including coerced testimony in the context of Jimmy Lai's trial, and referring to repression of the independent media, destruction of the culture in the context of Tibet, genocide being perpetrated in Xinjiang, and the repression of religious minorities, that this is not a mealy-mouthed motion. The motion and its intent are very clear in terms of what is said.
Senator Malcolm Byrne and I are co-chairs of the Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China. These are issues we have been pursuing for a number of years now and feel very strongly about. However, it is important to distinguish, as other speakers have, between the Chinese people, for whom I have enormous respect, and their government, for whom I have very little respect.
The reality is that we sit in a Eurocentric world and we think that things started here. Most of the things here started in China - from games, through ideas, to all the other things we take for granted. The Chinese have given the world so much and it is a culture of such ancient calibre that it is almost difficult for us to understand it. It is their misfortune that they now find themselves governed by the Chinese Communist Party, which has little or no respect for their individuality, their innovation and their might. It is repressing its own people, to the detriment of the progress of China. That is what is really regrettable about this.
My colleagues in Lithuania have been incredibly strong in opposing China and the way it has behaved. It is however important to acknowledge that it is slightly easier for them because they do not have the same trade relationship with China. Whether we like it or not, we are the only European Union country with a trade surplus with China. In 2023, that surplus was to the tune of some €24 million, so China is an important trade partner for us. Of course, it is right to point that out and identify the risks and difficulties it would potentially pose for us. If we create a dependency on Chinese trade, we are putting ourselves into a straitjacket in potentially being unable to challenge Chinese misbehaviour and disrespect for the rule of law and democracy.
It is important, therefore, as part of this motion, to recognise that we need to start to move back and diversify our trade relationship in Asia, but particularly in relation to China, so that we are not caught, for example, if the next US presidential election results in a change in our ability to export chips to China or vice versa. That could really compromise our economy in other ways. From an economic standpoint, which I acknowledge is a purely selfish one, we need to make sure we diversify our trade relationship with China and insulate ourselves from the risks that come with that, from the point of view of protecting this country.
My colleagues will talk about dairy and beef exports to China, which are hugely important to communities here. We need to safeguard those. If we truly respect China and the Chinese people, we also have to be willing to speak truth to them. This motion mentions a number of issues that are of global importance in terms of China treating its citizens in a way that we cannot possibly support or countenance.
There is a spectrum of misbehaviour and disrespect on the part of the Chinese Communist Party for its citizens. It ranges from the appalling genocide of the Uyghur people in Xinjiang, about which there can be no doubt. This is not merely speculation. The Chinese will tell us that it is and that they have alternative reports that tell us that it is not happening. In spite of the countless international reports, including by Michelle Bachelet and the UN, which have established as a matter of fact that there is a genocide happening there, they say that it is not happening but we know that it is. There is a real problem from Ireland's point of view in not calling that out and making sure we say it.
A constituent of mine, Richard O'Halloran, was essentially imprisoned in China. I know, having worked with Deputy Coveney, the Minister's predecessor, the work he did with Wang Yi the Foreign Minister, to get that man back. It was difficult and painstaking.
The difficulty is that the Chinese at a governmental level simply do not respect the norms that every other respectable member of the international community stands up to. On one end we have the Uighurs, but we can then go through the trial of Jimmy Lai, a man represented by an Irish citizen, Caoilfhionn Gallagher, a friend of mine who is doing incredible work as a barrister to defend him. She is swimming against the tide, however, because the national security law in Hong Kong and disrespect for the rule of law means that the Chinese government has not only trumped up a charge against him and fabricated a trial, but has also coerced testimony from people like Andy Li who worked with Senator Byrne and me in the context of the Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China, IPAC. He was tortured to give testimony against Jimmy Lai. That is what we are dealing with. The problem is that we as a country need to make sure that we communicate to China how reprehensible and unacceptable that is.
The third thing mentioned in the motion is Taiwan. We are not a military power; we are militarily non-aligned and so it should be. Politically, we must support Taiwan, Lai Ching-te and the new government of the Democratic Progressive Party, which was re-elected in recent weeks despite the greatest attempt at interference from Beijing. We must send out that message very clearly to Taiwan that we support it.
At the heart of the motion is a recognition that there are massive problems in our relationship with China because China refuses to play by the rules and to acknowledge the international rule of law and the human rights of its citizens. We have a trade surplus and have to safeguard our population and economic interests in China, but we must also speak truth to power and make sure that China hears Ireland does not abide by that and that we will not tolerate that in the long term.
The Minister has questions in the Dáil. I will ask him to make a contribution.
I have to go into the other House to take defence questions in about 20 minutes. I am pleased to join with those who contributed to the debate on the motion put forward by Senator Byrne, which raises a number of important issues, many of which are also of considerable interest to the Government.
I agree that it is timely to have this discussion now, following the visit to Ireland last week of Premier Li. Given the breadth of the motion before us, I want to highlight not just the Government’s policy approach to China but also its actions, particularly with regard to human rights, Taiwan and economic security, all of which are referenced in the motion.
In October last year, I launched Ireland’s updated Asia Pacific strategy. It reaffirms our commitment to deepen engagement in this dynamic region and sets out the parameters for how we want to grow our connections and strengthen our partnerships. We see the Ireland-China relationship as situated within the broader network of our relationships across the region. The areas of focus in that relationship reflect our areas of focus more broadly across the region and globally. This year will mark 45 years of Ireland-China diplomatic relations. As Senators will know, Ireland’s relationship with China is broad and has expanded and evolved over the years. Alongside increased economic exchange, education, tourism and cultural exchanges are bringing our people closer together.
Last week, at the request of the Chinese authorities, the Taoiseach welcomed Chinese Premier, Li Qiang to Dublin for a short visit. This was the first visit of a Chinese Premier since Li Keqiang in 2015. The visit of Premier Li was a welcome opportunity for an in-depth and constructive discussion. It is always very welcome to see in-person engagements resuming. Post Covid, we are witnessing that now.
I was one of four Government Ministers to travel to China in 2023. The Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, visited to mark St Patrick’s Day, the Minister of State, Deputy Heydon, led an agrifood trade mission in April and the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, undertook a successful follow up-visit to China in May. In November, I undertook a three-day visit to Beijing and Shanghai for political meetings and engagements with the Irish business community and diaspora. There were also a number of high level Chinese visitors to Ireland during 2023.
Such person-to-person contacts have real value. They provide a basis for engagement with China on subjects on which we agree and on those where our perspectives differ. They offer opportunities for open and honest communication on things that matter to us and to the Irish people.
There is no doubt that our relationship with China is complex. While we share strong links in a number of areas, differences in our relationship remain. In May last year, I set out the Government’s policy on China in a speech at the Royal Irish Academy. The speech reflected the strengths and opportunities in the bilateral relationship and Ireland’s desire to strengthen engagement where it is in our interests to do so. It made clear the centrality of the multilateral order, with the UN Charter at its heart, to our approach to our relationship with China. I would ask Senator Mullen to read the speech because everything we do, globally in all of our relationships and in particular in our relationship with China, is shaped through the multilateral prism. It emphasised that partnership with China on critical global challenges, like climate change, the sustainable development goals and global health, is vital. There is no getting away from that; China plays a vital part in all three areas.
It is also important that we are able to have an open discussion on key regional and global issues, such as Russia’s war in Ukraine and the conflict in the Middle East. The speech also acknowledged areas in which the views and priorities of China and Ireland diverge, including in regard to human rights. It underlined that Ireland must be clear-eyed about China’s strategic objectives and how these may impact us. During my visit to Beijing last year, I used the opportunity to embed Ireland’s policy approach to China within the framework of constructive dialogue.
In my meetings with Vice President Han Zheng and the foreign minister, Wang Yi, I was open and frank on Ireland’s priorities for the relationship and emphasised the values which underpin our engagement. These messages were reinforced by the Taoiseach during his engagement with Premier Li last week.
Ireland has a proud history of supporting the protection of human rights around the world, including in China. I wish to assure Senator Byrne that is not an afterthought. It has been a consistent thread in Irish foreign policy for quite some time, to be fair to the Department of Foreign Affairs and others. We are committed to the universality, indivisibility and interrelatedness of all human rights and to accountability for human rights violations and abuses. This approach is anchored in our firm commitment to international law and agreed multilateral frameworks and bodies.
Ireland has been very clear that human rights need to remain on the agenda with China at bilateral and European Union level. The Government has consistently raised our concerns on specific issues directly with our counterparts in China. To those commenting, including Senator Mullen, I would say that it is not a case of a nod and a wink to trade. We have serious discussions on human rights. There are cynics who create the perception that we just mention these things and move on quickly. That is not the way it works. China does not want it to work that way either, by the way.
It would help if the media-----
I want to assure the Senator that I am making the point in engagements. He has raised these issues. China has no issue with discussing human rights because it takes its robust position, a position with which we do not agree. The idea that we do not mention these things is not how it works.
Last week, President Higgins and the Taoiseach availed of their meetings with Premier Li to formally set out Ireland's concerns on the human rights situation in China. Specifically, the Taoiseach raised concerns about the treatment of minorities in Tibet and Xinjiang, as well as the national security law in Hong Kong. He also raised the case of Jimmy Lai, whose trial is ongoing. I take on board what has been said by Senator Byrne and others about justice in that case. He is facing a very difficult situation and there is a need for a fair trial and so forth. I raised our human rights concerns with my counterpart, the foreign minister, Wang Yi, during my visit to Beijing last November and at a more brief meeting in Munich at the UN security conference some months prior to that. This bilateral engagement is reinforced by Ireland’s approach at the United Nations, including the Human Rights Council.
As Senator Byrne said, during China's universal periodic review, this week Ireland highlighted the continued repression of civil society in China, including harassment of human rights defenders; restrictions on freedom of expression, including in Hong Kong; and the treatment of ethnic and religious groups, including in Xinjiang and Tibet. We also raised the widespread discrimination against members of the LGBTQI+ community. The situation in Xinjiang resonates with the Irish public, the Government and the Oireachtas.
Ireland has called on China to implement the recommendations of the assessment report from the former High Commissioner for Human Rights, Michelle Bachelet, on the situation in Xinjiang, the findings of which continue to be of grave concern to us. I have raised this twice with the Chinese foreign Minister, Wang Yi. The Chinese robustly respond in respect of Michelle Bachelet's report. That is an issue of ongoing disagreement and is contentious.
As Senators will be aware, the term “genocide” has a particular meaning under international law. Recognition of events definitively as genocide involves an analysis of both facts and law. Ireland follows the practice of recognising genocide only where this has been established by a final decision of a court in Ireland, or by a judgment of an international court, or where there is international consensus on the matter. Accordingly, while acknowledging the strength of feeling of the House on Xinjiang and recalling important debates held here on this issue, the Government is unable to share the characterisation of acts in Xinjiang as genocide. We want to ground them properly in terms of the international court system.
That does not apply just to China. We take international legal forums seriously. We have a case before International Court of Justice at the moment in respect of Palestine and the occupied West Bank. We have made a legal submission. The Attorney General will present to an oral hearing in February on that. That took serious sustained work by our legal people. Likewise, we have made a very substantive submission on the legacy Bill. We take these forums and the basis on which these issues are decided seriously.
Does the Tánaiste condemn what they are doing?
Sorry, Senator Mullen, you had your chance.
Does he condemn it?
.
Deputy Micheál Martin: I emphasise that this position does not detract, in any way, from our long-standing concerns on the situation in Xinjiang or our commitment to upholding human rights globally. We continue to work with our partners in the EU as to how we can best move this issue forward in respect of proper assessment from the EU on the ground, following up on Michelle Bachelet's work. We have no intention of stepping back from the consistent focus on the High Commissioner’s findings. We will continue to pursue her work.
On 13 January, the people of Taiwan held democratic elections. Ireland, along with its EU partners, adheres to, and will continue to adhere to, the one-China policy. This means that we do not have diplomatic relations with Taiwan. We recognise the People’s Republic of China as the legal representative of China. This does not preclude the development of economic, cultural and people-to-people connections with Taiwan or the meaningful participation of Taiwan in relevant multilateral forums. We are concerned by increased tensions in the Taiwan Strait. Any instability in the strait has the potential for broad and devastating security, political and economic consequences. That is very real. In our interactions with Chinese authorities, Ireland is consistently clear that the maintenance of stability and the status quo in relation to Taiwan is critical.
We encourage restraint and strong communication channels, including between China and the United States. I welcome recent meetings between the two countries, particularly at military level where channels have been reopened and guardrails put around that relationship in the interest of global stability and security. Any attempt to change the status quo by force would not be acceptable.
Finally, I wish to address the question of economic security that has been raised. My speech in May also addressed the emerging process of "derisking", framing Ireland and the European Union’s approach to this as building economic and systemic resilience. Senator Ward also raised this question. I made clear the Government’s obligation to assess areas of systemic vulnerability or risk in the relationship with China. I also underlined the importance of working with our EU partners to this end.
Ireland’s economy is remarkably open, as indeed is Europe’s economy. Our approaches to trade are anchored in global trading norms. Ireland and our EU partners want a balanced, reciprocal and mutually beneficial economic relationship with China, with a level playing field for Irish and EU businesses. There was recently an EU-China summit. Trade is a competency of the Commission. We can be sneering about trade, suggesting it is something like Yeats's fumbling in the greasy till or whatever.
It is a consideration.
Trade is the lifeblood of the country. We trade with many countries all over the world. That is where the multilateralism comes in and that is why multilateral forums are very important to Ireland. We need to deal with issues in a proper and informed way. Trade is not the be-all and end-all but it is a fairly significant issue for many people living in this country. It relates to jobs and quality of life. It is bread and butter for many small and medium-sized companies as well as bigger companies in the country.
Derisk-----
Sorry, Senator Mullen-----
Our speech in May deals with that. We all need to get a bit real. Some 80% of pharmaceuticals consumed in America are made in China. Climate change will not happen without China's manufacturing capacity. We cannot gear up in terms of the wind infrastructure or solar panels to give the manufacturing capacity in China. I have spoken to the European Chamber of Commerce in Beijing. I have spoken to the representatives of many Irish companies who have given us an illustration of the sheer capacity of what is happening. We can cut ourselves off and that is what some want us to do. It is very easy to do, but it has consequences. We engage with many countries in the world with whose political systems we do not agree. I am a passionate believer in multilateralism, which requires engagement to try to bring about change. Many people in the global south, Africa and the middle East believe we in Europe hector too much. I am not saying China; I am saying generally. We need to engage in dialogue as much as we can. With the various disputes, I have been asked to expel three ambassadors, including the Russian ambassador, in the past year and a half. I do not see how that helps us in advancing the agendas, principles and values we have. I am digressing a bit.
Ireland’s trade with China, and importantly our goods exports to China, have trebled in the past five years. There is an economic interdependence globally and globalisation is not going away. The Government will continue to support many of our businesses and our State agencies in their engagement with China and to work with Chinese companies established in Ireland to create jobs and build prosperity. Alongside this, we will also work with EU partners to strengthen our broader economic security. With our economic resilience in mind, the Government has put in place legislation on 5G vendors and more recently, on investment screening. These measures are country-agnostic and play an important part in addressing economic vulnerabilities wherever they may arise.
I thank you for your indulgence, a Chathaoirligh. This is an important debate and one I am pleased to participate in. I thank the Seanad for its continued engagement on Ireland’s relationship with China. Senator Byrne has been engaged for a long time. I look forward to hearing the views of colleagues. I apologise that because of the way the other House works, parliamentary questions are taken late in the evening and I have to go and take questions on defence.
We do our business much better here, despite what people might write in the newspapers.
I thank the Tánaiste for having come here and I wish him well in the Dáil. I also thank my Fianna Fáil colleagues for tabling this important motion for discussion this evening. It is remarkably courageous of you, a Chathaoirligh, to stay in the Chair following the recent torpedo you received from the Chinese Embassy in Dublin for congratulating the people of Taiwan on their election, but these things happen.
I want to talk about a small number of issues. I agree completely with what Senator Mullen said about that nature of the Chinese Government. I would go further. We should never forget that the Chinese Communist Party is a ruthless totalitarian dictatorship and nothing else. It suppresses all human rights on true Marxist-Leninist lines. They are inferior to the right of the party as the voice of the people to exercise whatever authority the party decides is necessary to remain in power in China.
That involves ruthlessly suppressing any internal democracy or dissent, jailing people, executing people, re-educating people, taking on entire ethnic minorities such as the Tibetans and the Uyghur people of Xinjiang province and treating them in a manner which is barbaric, to put it mildly, breaking up families, forcing abortions on women, forcing men to take off their beards, and rounding up Uyghurs from education camps and sending them in trains to work in forced labour around China. This is China today. We can have respect for Chinese culture and the Chinese people themselves, as Senator Byrne said, but let us never, ever forget that this government is probably the most hostile to human rights of any government on the planet, and in the company of Putin and Kim Jong Un, that is saying something. They are ruthless in the extreme and nobody should ever lose sight of that fact.
Another thing that I want us to remember is that without any permission from the Irish State, the Chinese established a police station in Capel Street. The purpose of that police station was to exercise effective de facto control over Chinese expatriates in Ireland. It was only when this accidentally came to the notice of the Irish authorities that it was closed down, but the fact that it was done without even a request to the Irish authorities for permission to do it shows how arrogant and overweening their attitude is.
Senator Mullen and I are NUI Senators. Like him, I am deeply suspicious of the Confucius Institute at UCD. I believe it is largely there to ensure political conformity among Chinese expatriate third level and postgraduate students, to keep an eye on them, to make sure they do not become infected with democratic, liberal or western values and to report back on them to Beijing. Sadly, I think they use the worst possible methods, including getting students to spy on each other, so living as a Chinese expatriate third level or postgraduate student in Ireland is by no means a liberating experience where you can kick off your shoes and enjoy the freedom of the West. It is none of those things. It is the subject of deep surveillance, full stop. Universities in Ireland are supposed to be institutions of freedom of thought, so how do they bring a cell into a university campus whose whole ethos, while pretending to be cultural and to be interested in Chinese culture, is in fact paid for, sponsored and operated as an agency of a tyrannical regime?
To conclude, it is very strange how in this country the left go silent on Chinese human rights. We never hear them in here and, whether it is soft left or hard left, they never come in to express any problems with this. They hardly even care about North Korea, they do not care very much about the suppression of human rights in Cuba and there is not a squeak out of them on the subject of the suppression of human rights and human liberty by the most totalitarian government on this planet.
I welcome and support the motion. I thank the Fianna Fáil Senators, in particular Senator Malcolm Byrne, for moving it.
Míle buíochas. Glaoimid an Seanadóir Malcolm Byrne to reply to the debate.
I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Thomas Byrne, for standing in for the Tánaiste to conclude this debate. The Tánaiste set out very clearly what I think is the correct foreign policy for Ireland, which is our support for multilateralism where it is based very strongly on human rights. I agree with Senator McDowell that some of those who are most loudly calling for the expulsion of ambassadors from this country are remarkably silent when it comes to the totalitarian Chinese Communist Party. The Tánaiste is correct that that is not the way we should conduct diplomacy, although we need to have very frank conversations. I note the Tánaiste criticised me when I said that human rights sometimes appeared as an afterthought. Until fairly recently, when press releases came out from the Government about meetings with senior Chinese personnel, the last line was always “Oh, and human rights were mentioned.” Therefore, I welcome that human rights were very much front and centre at the meetings that took place last week. Given the developments in Geneva today, I compliment our ambassador on the statement that he made, which very much calls out China's appalling human rights record.
There were a number of specific asks in the debate around continuing to raise specific cases, for example, what is happening with the Uyghur communities in Xinjiang, what is happening in Tibet, our concerns around Taiwan and, in particular, what is happening in Hong Kong at present. The case of Sebastien Lai and the cases of many others who have stood up for Hong Kong need to be highlighted at a bilateral and multilateral level. The European Union also needs to take a stronger stance on some of these issues. I ask that this be brought back to Government level and that, very clearly, it continue to be voiced in the weeks and months ahead, particularly while Jimmy Lai’s trial is continuing.
It is very important that this House, as it has done on a number of issues, continues to hold debates on human rights around the world. That is not to say that Ireland is perfect as a country, and there is always more that we can do for our own citizens and to learn from our history. However, that does not mean that we should be silent or should in some way minimise our voice when it comes to human rights in other parts of the world. As Senator McDowell and others have said, we are now seeing an increasingly authoritarian Chinese Communist Party. I would argue that Xi Jinping has assumed dictatorial powers and he is effectively president for life. Within that, his oppression of minorities is of deep concern. I think this House speaks as one and expresses those concerns. I get Senator Mullen’s point about not using the word “condemn”, but in the contributions from Senator Ward and me in this House, at the Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China, IPAC, level and in other areas, and, in fairness to the Tánaiste, in his remarks, it is very clear that we condemn those human rights abuses and that they will continue to be raised in international fora.
Question put and agreed to.
When is it proposed to sit again?
Tomorrow at 10.30 a.m.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
I thought the Minister of State, Deputy Thomas Byrne, came in to give the condemnation that the Tánaiste did not give, but there you go.
Cuireadh an Seanad ar athló ar 8.29 p.m. go dtí 10.30 a.m., Dé Céadaoin, an 24 Eanáir 2024.
The Seanad adjourned at 8.29 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 24 January 2024.