I welcome the Minister of State back to the Chamber. For the information of Members, they can speak to or oppose a section on Committee Stage. Every Member is entitled to speak and come back in again on Committee Stage, unlike on Second Stage or Final Stage.
Ministers and Secretaries and Ministerial, Parliamentary, Judicial and Court Offices (Amendment) Bill 2025: Committee and Remaining Stages
SECTION 1
Question proposed: "That section 1 stand part of the Bill."
As I said, we should not be pursuing what is outlined in this section without having the report, on which I have introduced an amendment under the next section. I will speak to my points again. We should not be pursuing this. We have no evidence that having additional Ministers will bring value for money. We have instances of misuse of public spending. It is no one's fault, but we now have a situation where there is a lack of public trust in decision-making on spending. Yesterday, for example, in respect of arts and culture, we heard about the issue with the €6 million. I am proposing that instead of pursuing this, we introduce an amendment with a request that the Government brings us a report within the next three months outlining the evidence, findings and facts to demonstrate that having these additional Ministries will provide better value for money and better services for people.
I thank the Senator. The expansion in ministerial duties arises from the increasing complexity of policy issues, the challenges associated with managing extensive Government initiatives and the enhanced engagement with stakeholders at all levels both domestically and internationally. It is very important that we ground this discussion in wider societal and economic developments.
Based on population estimates from the Central Statistics Office, CSO, the population has grown from 4.4 million people in 2007 to 5.4 million people last year. That is a 30% growth in population since 2007. In less than 20 years, we have 1 million extra people in our population. These are facts and statistics that are evidence-based and come directly from the CSO. In addition, the number of those aged over 65 has increased as a share of the overall population from 10.8% to 15.5% over the same period. I am pleased that my colleague, the Minister of State, Mary Butler, will have special responsibility for older people, given that this is an increasing demographic with increasing challenges.
The increase in the number of people coming to live and work in Ireland is a welcome consequence of the growth in our economy, in job opportunities and in social and public services. Nevertheless, this growth requires an increased focus to deliver public services across multiple functions. For example, the overall increase in immigration and the support Ireland has extended to asylum seekers and people coming from areas of conflict present the challenge of effectively integrating the greater number of immigrants settling into Ireland in the medium to long term. Appointing a Minister of State with special responsibility for migration to address these issues strategically will support the Government in managing this area specifically and effectively.
Many of the emerging challenges we face are interdisciplinary and necessitate cross-departmental responses. New ministerial responsibilities at Minister of State level will be delegated to ensure that there is an appropriate focus across all Government priority areas. Through improved cross-departmental working and promoting simultaneous action, Ministers of State will enable a more cohesive approach to delivering the programme for Government.
I reiterate that we are appointing three Ministers of State through this Bill. They include Ministers of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine with special responsibilities for fisheries, and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications with special responsibilities for the marine.
As the former Minister of State and now Senator, Malcolm Noonan, mentioned earlier, he was hoping that this would be a specific role at Cabinet level. With the current limitations on ministerial positions it is not possible to ensure we have everything covered at Cabinet level. That is why it is important that we have Ministers of State with specific responsibilities. This is an example of that. Such a Minister of State would provide much needed support to both of those Departments, which, as set out by the Taoiseach, will focus in the coming years on a range of really necessary activities. The Government will also appoint a Minister of State at the Department of Justice with special responsibility for migration. As already indicated by the Taoiseach, the Department of Justice will be significantly reformed to make sure it is focused on our programme of action. The new Minister of State will support the Minister on the work that will be carried out to address Government activity on migration. A new division in the Department of Justice will be responsible for the control of our border, for management of immigration and for co-ordination of integration.
We will be appointing a Minister of State at the Department of Further and Higher Education with special responsibility for further education, apprenticeships, construction and climate skills. This new Minister of State will play a key role in supporting the Minister in his efforts to ensure we maximise the economic impact of the investment we make in those really critical sectors. We talk all the time about needing more apprentices, and people with construction skills and climate skills, to ensure that as we deliver on our housing agenda, we do so in a way that really makes sense.
As mentioned by the Taoiseach, the Government also plans to secure the financial foundations and implement measures to systematically consider the science and research dimensions of Government initiatives. The additional Ministers of State will allow necessary additional functions on vital areas of public policy that have been outlined here and in the Dáil many times by NGOs and by those working in these areas and will play a really valuable role in the delivery of our extensive programme for Government. I appreciate the Senator's point in relation to accountability over three months. It is the Senator's prerogative to table a Commencement matter to look at the progress over those three months. However, I am very clear that these are three areas in which we absolutely need investment and greater strategic leadership. That is exactly what these Ministers of State will provide.
Question put and agreed to.
For clarification, section 1 has been agreed. I know Senator Stephenson opposed that section.
NEW SECTIONS
Amendments Nos. 1 and 10 are related and may be discussed together. Is that agreed? Agreed.
I move amendment No. 1:
1. In page 3, between lines 17 and 18, to insert the following:
"Ministers of State: value for money
2. The Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1977 is amended by the insertion of the following section after section 5:
“Ministers of State: value for money
5A. (1) The Secretary General of each Department of State shall, not later than 1 April in each year, publish a detailed statement of—
(a) the costs incurred in the previous year attributable to the assignment of a Minister of State to the Department, including the cost of Special Advisers, civilian drivers and the staff working in the private office of the Minister of State, and
(b) the functions performed and official responsibilities discharged in the previous year by each Minister of State standing assigned to the Department in that year.
(2) The Comptroller and Auditor General may, in relation to a Department of State, carry out under section 9 of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Amendment) Act 1993 such examinations as he or she considers appropriate regarding—
(a) the appointment of a Minister of State and his or her assignment to the Department and the nature and extent of any special responsibilities conferred on the Minister of State,
(b) the organisation of sections and divisions within the Department for the purpose of facilitating the discharge of any special responsibilities conferred on the Minister of State, and
(c) the delegation (or non-delegation) of any statutory powers and duties of the Minister of the Government having charge of the Department to the Minister of State, and the exercise of any powers and performance of any duties so delegated, for the purpose of ascertaining whether and to what extent the resources of the Department have been used economically and efficiently.”.”.
This amendment is very straightforward. It relates to accountability, reporting, value for money and ensuring transparency around these new roles. I really hope we might be able find some common ground and get these very reasonable amendments passed. This amendment is all about economic efficiency, transparency and reporting, so I would really appreciate support for it.
I thank Senator Harmon for this amendment, which I think is very well intentioned. Accountability, transparency and value for money are all elements that we want to make sure we are achieving as we do our work in government. Regarding the Secretary General providing detailed statements of costs, this is already provided for because a lot of this information is publicly available. Information on the salaries of advisers and civilian drivers is publicly available. There will be guidelines for the Thirty-fourth Dáil, which I understand will be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas in the next couple of weeks. They will then be published online and be freely available and will contain all of that information.
The Senator spoke about the functional performance - what work has been carried out regarding duties and what laws have been enacted. All of that kind of information is already available. It is very clear, even using the resources available in-house, what the Ministers of State have been doing in terms of legislative work in both Houses of the Oireachtas and through committees, where they have been before and where they have had to make statements. Their public events are publicly available, usually through diaries and calendars that are published online. In the event of a Department not providing that online, it is always available through a freedom of information request.
Regarding the Comptroller and Auditor General, Estimates of expenditure are published as part of the annual budget process and are then examined by the relevant Oireachtas committees. Appropriation accounts are audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General before being examined at the Committee of Public Accounts. Regarding a role for the Comptroller and Auditor General, the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General was established under section 9 of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Amendment) Act 1993. The office already has the power to make an examination where it deems appropriate. Section 9 provides for examination by the Comptroller and Auditor General of the economy and the efficiency with which Departments and bodies statutorily audited by the office use their resources to carry out their functions and the measures used by such Departments and bodies for appraising the effectiveness of their own operations. Section 10 of the Act grants the Comptroller and Auditor General access to all necessary documents and all information required for audits and examinations. Section 11 ensures the findings are reported directly to the Oireachtas. This maintains transparency and accountability, always with an eye on value for money. I do not want to create additional layers of bureaucracy that take away from value for money when we already have accountability and transparency built into the system.
Amendment put and declared lost.
I move amendment No. 2:
In page 3, between lines 17 and 18, to insert the following:
“Amendment of section 3A of Oireachtas (Allowances to Members) and Ministerial, Parliamentary, Judicial and Court Offices (Amendment) Act 1998
2. The Minister shall lay a report before both Houses of the Oireachtas within 3 months of the passing of this Act on the need and appropriateness of expanding the number of Ministers of State.”.
I have spoken on this before. I appreciate that the Minister of State has given us various examples of what she and the Government believe are good uses of public spending. However, these are anecdotal and we need to see more evidence to really talk about strategic benefit. What we have heard today is not evidence or data. It is not what I would describe as a meaningful business case for bringing this forward. As I said earlier today, I am not inherently opposed to this but we need a meaningful business case to bring this to the public and to make sure we are reinforcing public trust in our work. I do not consider the process we are hearing about to be very strategic. We may potentially undermine the trust the public will have in the political system. That is why I have brought forward this amendment.
I do not believe this is anecdotal. It is data-centred evidence coming from the CSO, which I referred to earlier. The CSO is the State agency responsible for gathering information and statistics in Ireland. That is why I believe its data is worth looking at.
Amendment put and declared lost.
Amendment No. 3 has been ruled out of order on the basis that it is not relevant to the subject matter of the Bill.
Amendment No. 3 not moved.
I note that Senator Stephenson is opposing the section. She can speak to the section if she wishes. She does not wish to speak to it.
Section 2 agreed to.
SECTION 3
Amendment No. 4 has been ruled out of order as it is in conflict with the principle of the Bill. Amendments Nos. 5 and 6 have been ruled out of order. Amendment No. 7 has also been ruled out of order as not relevant to the subject matter of the Bill. Amendments Nos. 8 and 9 have been ruled out of order as not being in accordance with Article 46.2 of the Constitution.
Amendments Nos. 4 to 9, inclusive, not moved.
Section 3 agreed to.
TITLE
Amendment No. 10 cannot be moved. It was already discussed with amendment No. 1.
Amendment No. 10 not moved.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.
When is it proposed to take the next Stage?
Now.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
Question, "That the Bill be received for final consideration", put and agreed to.
When is it proposed to take the next Stage?
Now.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
Question put: "That the Bill do now pass."
The Seanad divided: Tá, 35; Níl, 12.
Tá
- Ahearn, Garret.
- Blaney, Niall.
- Boyle, Manus.
- Bradley, Nikki.
- Brady, Paraic.
- Byrne, Cathal.
- Byrne, Maria.
- Casey, Pat.
- Clifford-Lee, Lorraine.
- Comyn, Alison.
- Costello, Teresa.
- Craughwell, Gerard P.
- Crowe, Ollie.
- Curley, Shane.
- Daly, Paul.
- Davitt, Aidan.
- Duffy, Mark.
- Fitzpatrick, Mary.
- Flaherty, Joe.
- Gallagher, Robbie.
- Goldsboro, Imelda.
- Kelleher, Garret.
- Keogan, Sharon.
- Kyne, Seán.
- Lynch, Eileen.
- Murphy O'Mahony, Margaret.
- Murphy, P. J..
- Nelson Murray, Linda.
- Ní Chuilinn, Evanne.
- O'Loughlin, Fiona.
- O'Reilly, Joe.
- Rabbitte, Anne.
- Ryan, Dee.
- Scahill, Gareth.
- Wilson, Diarmuid.
Níl
- Andrews, Chris.
- Clonan, Tom.
- Collins, Joanne.
- Cosgrove, Nessa.
- Harmon, Laura.
- McCormack, Maria.
- Murphy, Conor.
- O'Reilly, Sarah.
- Ruane, Lynn.
- Ryan, Nicole.
- Stephenson, Patricia.
- Tully, Pauline.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Garret Ahearn and Robbie Gallagher; Níl, Senators Conor Murphy and Pauline Tully..
Question declared carried.
When is it proposed to sit again?
Wednesday at 2.30 p.m.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
Cuireadh an Seanad ar athló ar 2.18 p.m. go dtí 2.30 p.m., Dé Céadaoin, an 19 Feabhra 2025.
The Seanad adjourned at 2.18 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 19 February 2025.