SELECT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 30 Nov 2005

Business of Select Committee.

Chairman

This meeting has been convened to consider the Tampere Convention on the Provision of Telecommunications Resources for Disaster Mitigation and Relief Operations as adopted on 18 June 1998 at Tampere, Finland, the Sea Pollution (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2003 and the Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources — Vote 30. We will take the Tampere Convention first, the consideration of the Supplementary Estimate second and the Bill third. We may not finish the Bill because I hope to adjourn at 4.15 p.m. to allow the Minister of State to attend an urgent meeting on another matter.

I wish to read into the record an e-mail we received from the private secretary of the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dempsey, this morning:

Further to our telephone conversation this afternoon I would be grateful if you would disregard Donna Comer's e-mail below. We of course understand that it is the responsibility of the Dáil to refer the Bill to committee and the decision to hold a meeting is the prerogative of the members of the committee. I would like to convey my sincere apologies to yourself and the Chairman for any inconvenience that may have been caused as a result of this e-mail.

Members have seen the e-mail that was circulated by the clerk in respect of this matter and I explained, when members questioned me in private session, that the Minister has apologised for the error on the part of his staff in becoming involved in the legislative process.

The Sea-Fisheries and Maritime Jurisdiction Bill 2005 is to be guillotined tomorrow by the Government. The Chief Whip has advised me that the committee should consider taking the Bill next Tuesday, possibly Wednesday, which is budget day, Thursday and Friday, if necessary.

Mr. Perry

I am disappointed the Chairman received that request from the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey. I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Gallagher. This Bill, a huge measure containing 70 sections, was brought before the committee in October and even then all the fishing representative bodies said there had been no consultation with them on it. Given that it will have a far-reaching impact on the fishing industry for years to come, why must it be passed before Christmas? It is impossible to discuss a Bill of this nature in such a short period. Numerous Fine Gael members wish to speak tomorrow and there will be no difficulty getting people to speak on it for a further two weeks.

The Bill criminalises fishermen and the administrative fines that are now being contemplated with regard to the criminal sanctions to be imposed on fishermen, regardless of the current situation in the industry, cannot be retrospective. I am astonished at the degree of urgency on display, particularly in the context that the Minister expects the Bill to be guillotined tomorrow, to be guillotined in the committee next week, to be returned to the Dáil to be guillotined on 13 or 14 December and then to be passed by Seanad Éireann. It is extraordinary.

This is the same Minister who introduced the Electoral Amendment Bill 2001. The latter passed speedily through the Dáil, without any consultation, and was brought in likewise. I have a degree of sympathy with the Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, because the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, sent in other Ministers to deal with that Bill, which was subsequently thrown out of Seanad Éireann. I am astonished. The Bill before us has not come from Europe. There is no imperative that it be passed in the short term. Why is there this degree of urgency? Fine Gael wants consultation and debate on these amendments. We are prepared to return in the first week of January and take as much time as necessary to consider the legislation instead of rushing it through. The budget is approaching, the Minister has a heavy work schedule with which to contend before Christmas and this Bill will be lost.

Fine Gael will oppose the Bill here and in the House tomorrow and will take decisive action. We had a parliamentary party meeting and Fine Gael Deputies will not support the Bill and will find it hard to co-operate in respect of it. There is no point in getting into meaningful discussion if the Minister intends to guillotine the Bill in as short a period as possible. How can we propose amendments in that event? We are supposed to put forward amendments by Monday next in order that the Bill can be dealt with on Tuesday. However, we have not yet seen the proposed Government amendments. The situation is impossible.

We need to send a clear message to the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey, that he would be well advised to listen to the consensus — among not only the Opposition but also Government backbenchers — to the effect that the Bill is unwarranted and requires discussion. Despite the need for the Bill, it could be improved with consultation and meaningful discussion with Opposition Deputies. I strongly advise the Minister not to push the Bill through as he has been advised to do. I am disappointed that he is not here to deal with the debate on the Bill. If he is so forthright about it, why he is not present? It is unfair to send the Minister of State here if the direction has come from Cabinet.

I raised this matter on today's Order of Business with the Taoiseach and he said it was an issue that could be discussed with the Whips. However, it has gone beyond that. The Whips will have a serious discussion on it this evening and I guarantee that if they want a major row in the House, they will have one because Fine Gael will not co-operate on this Bill.

Chairman

Is the Deputy suggesting that he will not co-operate with this committee on Committee Stage?

Mr. Perry

I am seriously considering that. What level of co-operation does the Chairman mean? Is the Bill not being rammed through the House by the Government, without any consultation? We are talking about representing the fishing industry to draw a lesson for people who have significant concerns about the Bill. There are over 70 sections to be considered, not to mention the number of amendments that may be tabled, and the Minister wants to guillotine it after a couple of hours' debate.

Let us be honest and face reality. It would be totally different if it was necessary that the Bill be passed by Christmas. That, however, is not the case. The Chairman was in Brussels and met the Commissioner and the fishery representative bodies of the European Union on the matter. A statement signed by 14 MEPs, North and South, states that the Bill comes not from Europe but rather from the Department. It is important to put on the record that Fine Gael will oppose the Bill every step of the way. At this late stage, I call on the Minister to remove the guillotine to allow consultation on the Bill. We are prepared to return in January to deal with the Bill in a meaningful way and do our best to improve it.

Mr. Broughan

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Gallagher. The manner in which this matter has been handled is an outrage and it represents a slap in the face for every parliamentarian. The Labour Party had counted on the fact that the Bill would be discussed tomorrow, and perhaps the following week, and that amendments to it on Committee Stage would be considered in the third or fourth week in January. However, we are faced with a guillotine after two very brief sessions of discussion. At the first session only I, Deputy Perry, the Minister, the Chairman and perhaps one or two others had the opportunity to speak. Last week, only Deputy O'Donovan and one or two others had an opportunity to contribute and we still have to hear from some members today.

People from 12 to 14, perhaps more, constituencies are deeply interested in maritime matters and fisheries, as are the 100,000 plus citizens who depend on the fishing industry. It seems wrong to bring forward fundamental legislation and guillotine it in the House before Deputies, including those on the Government side, have had an opportunity to indicate their views and to expect, at this late stage, those of us on the Opposition benches — with our meagre resources — to come forward with draft amendments. I have received approximately 150 separate submissions on aspects of the Sea-Fisheries and Maritime Jurisdiction Bill, which contains, as Deputy Perry said, over 70 sections. It is like dealing with a budget or a pensions Bill and is major legislation relating to the future of the industry. Despite the anxiety expressed to us by the Secretary General, Mr. Tuohy, and others about the Bill being passed, the need does not appear imminent. When the Bill first appeared, I felt that it was rough on civil servants and that they were being left hang out to dry. The Bill should never have been brought forward in that shape and form.

It is impossible for us to be a responsible Opposition, to properly invigilate the Bill and to have 70 or 80 amendments ready, in effect, by Friday. That is outrageous. Like Fine Gael, the Labour Party will strongly oppose the guillotine on this Bill tomorrow. We are totally opposed to proceeding in this manner. It is astonishing that somebody in the Department was so discourteous to the Chairman and members and thought that we live in the kind of country where there is no parliamentary democracy and where the committee need not be asked about taking the Bill. On those grounds, we must say that we will do our business our way and take the Bill when we are ready.

I agree with Deputy Perry. I am ready to take the Bill during Christmas week or the week after Christmas. I have no difficulty coming in and spending four or five days on the Bill. If it can wait until the third or fourth week of January, that would be preferable. We would then get a chance to talk to the Irish fish producers' association, to the fishermen of the south, west and east, the Killybegs men and all the relevant communities in order that we would know exactly what we want to do on legislation that could endure long after we have left the House.

I totally support my Fine Gael colleague. I urge the Chairman to reject and withdraw the motion and to tell the Minister that we will not allow this to happen because it is not the way to do business in Parliament.

Chairman

Is it my understanding that Deputy Broughan will not co-operate with the committee next week if Committee Stage of the Bill is taken?

Mr. Broughan

I stated earlier in private session that I am a parliamentarian and that I believe in parliamentary democracy. I hope my party will have more seats following the next general election and that there will be a different type of Government. I cannot do my business if the Chairman is going to impose a guillotine on Committee Stage of the Bill. It would not be fair to do so. I will have to take whatever measures I must in that context to ensure the Bill is debated properly.

Chairman

I am trying to reach a consensus. I presume the guillotine will remain in place for tomorrow unless something happens in the interim.

Mr. Perry

On the issue of the guillotine, it is important that this committee send a clear message. I move that we should ask the Minister to withdraw the guillotine. That is my proposal.

Mr. Broughan

I second that proposal.

Mr. Perry

It is totally wrong that the Minister should present the guillotine tomorrow as a fait accompli and that Report and Final Stages will be taken next week. That is not good enough.

Mr. Broughan

I know the Chairman has not chaired a finance committee, although he may do so in the future. A budget or the Finance Bill would not be treated in this manner. Neither would even the famous pensions Bill to which I referred, which was brought forward by Deputy Dermot Ahern in a previous Ministry, nor other fundamental legislation with which I dealt as Labour spokesperson, be treated in this way. No Minister would try to ram legislation of that nature through in a couple of short Dáil sessions and a short Committee Stage. This is not the way to do business. It is wrong and we must uphold correct practice.

Chairman

The committee has never previously had a vote of this sort. I have explained to members that the Government Chief Whip has indicated to me that he would like us to consider Committee Stage of the Bill next week.

Mr. Perry

I advise the Chairman to speak with his party Whip. He has a major problem. Regardless of the apology we received, the Minister mandated this into the committee without due consideration. That mindset has been the same on the Bill since last August and it is that which is directing matters. The party Whip would be well advised to reflect calmly and to decide tomorrow to allow the time necessary to discuss the Bill openly and frankly. That is what we seek.

Mr. Broughan

That mindset is the reason the marine is not the responsibility of a separate Department and that there is not a full Cabinet position relating to this area. The Department with responsibility for the marine also has responsibility for communications, mobile phones, energy and broadcasting. Marine issues have been abandoned and the Department is being scattered to the four winds. We resent the mindset which states that the area of the marine does not matter. I would like the Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, to be a Minister at the Cabinet table with responsibility for the marine, transport matters relating thereto and issues such as that involving Irish Ferries. He is the type of individual who would address such serious matters. The approach to which I refer is typical of the way the marine has been treated during the Government's term of office. It is the wrong approach and betrays a mindset which must be rejected by the committee.

Chairman

I do not want this matter to be pushed to a vote because we have co-operated in dealing with matters during the past three years. From the discussion that took place in private session, I am aware that Deputy Broughan is opposed to what is proposed and that he will not co-operate in regard to amendments, etc., next week. I do not want to pre-empt what will happen tomorrow but, based on Deputy Perry's assertion that the party Whips will meet later to discuss this matter and in light of the serious concerns expressed, would it be better to leave the matter as it stands and, for the convenience of the parties represented on this committee, await the outcome of tonight's meeting?

Mr. Broughan

To do so would mean that we would not have an opportunity to put our views on record by means of the voting mechanism. This is a fundamental issue. We may be informed that we must submit our amendments on Monday. The Chairman should put a motion to the committee.

Dr. Fitzpatrick

The Chairman mentioned that the party Whips will meet this evening and that this item will be high on the agenda.

Chairman

Deputy Perry said that; I was not aware of it.

Dr. Fitzpatrick

The Whips meet every Wednesday. If the two members and their parties are opposed to the format in which this Bill is currently being taken, it makes sense to adjourn the meeting to await the outcome of the Whips' meeting.

Mr. Perry

We have not voted at a meeting of this committee since I became a member. We have shown great discretion on this matter up to now. While I respect fully what Deputy Fitzpatrick said, we feel so vehemently about our opposition to this matter that I put down the marker that we will take a position on it. We are not prepared to co-operate on this matter. The Whips will not co-operate this evening and we will not co-operate in any way in dealing with this Bill next week. In light of the diktat from the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, and his record on previous legislation, this is not the way to proceed. I ask the Chairman or the Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, if there is an imperative, of which I am unaware, that this Bill be passed by the end of the December.

Chairman

I want to bring in the Minister of State at this stage.

Mr. Perry

The message the Whips can bring to the meeting this evening is that the committee will have taken a vote, the first one in three years. That is how strongly we feel about this matter. This vote will be the first of many. There will several votes tomorrow and all Deputies on the Government side will have to be present tomorrow.

Mr. Kelly

I appeal to our learned colleagues, two reasonable and sensible men, who are appealing to the Minister of State, to listen to wisdom of comments of Deputy Fitzpatrick, a learned and wise man. They should take his considerations into account in contemplating what they propose to do. They have had a great relationship with the Chairman and the clerk to the committee for the past number of years. They have all got on well and it has been one big happy family. They have worked together for the good of the people. It would be regrettable if a split were to occur. We do not want Deputy Perry to be running from one vote to another.

Mr. Perry

I respect what Deputy Fitzpatrick said and I also respect the opinion of Deputy Kelly, a seasoned politician. We must vote on this issue. Voting on it is the only clear message that the Whips will understand. I strongly advise the members on the Government side to ensure that all their colleagues are present in the Dáil Chamber tomorrow.

Mr. Broughan

I concur with that view. I have the height of regard for Deputies Fitzpatrick and Kelly, who has made a distinguished contribution to the north midlands. They, like their colleague from north Kerry, have made contributions.

I served on the city council for 12 years alongside Deputy Fitzpatrick and he knows that I am a reasonable person. Occasionally, however, one must draw a line in the sand and say, "This far and no further". If we agree to anything other than putting this matter to a vote, it will be construed by some to mean that we are backing down. The only way out is to vote on the Chairman's motion or for him to withdraw it and put Deputy Perry's motion to a vote and pass it.

Dr. Fitzpatrick

I welcome the nice comments Deputy Broughan made about me. I ask that we adjourn the meeting until we learn the outcome of the Whips' meeting. I have no doubt that the Deputy is expressing his party's wishes on this matter. This committee has never put a matter to a vote, instead we have teased out issues over the years. The Whips meet at 5.30 p.m. each Wednesday. That is two hours from now. I would be willing to await the outcome of their deliberations. In doing so, members would not be showing any sign of weakness.

Mr. Broughan

I am a Whip. One of the scenarios about tomorrow's business that upsets the Opposition is that last week the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, for whom I also have the height of regard, gave no indication that there would be a guillotine on the debate tomorrow. We discovered yesterday that a guillotine would be imposed. We should have known that last Wednesday but we did not. In a sense, we have gone past the stage of being patient. Commitments were given that longer debates would be allowed. I am informed by my party's other Whip, Deputy Stagg, that the debate tomorrow will be guillotined. To some extent, we have been let down on this matter. The only way to proceed is to send a message that we oppose the manner in which it is proposed to deal this matter at this committee. We must do that. Sometimes in life, one must do certain things. On this occasion, we must vote against the Chairman's motion.

Chairman

I propose that we go into private session. Therefore, I ask the officials to leave.

The select committee went into private session at 3.30 p.m. and resumed in public session at 3.35 p.m.

Chairman

I ask the Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, to clarify what he has stated — based on the report he received — in private session.

Minister of State at the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources (Mr. Gallagher)

I wish to clarify——

Mr. Kelly

I have one question to ask and I wish to make a comment. I am glad the unity that has existed until now in the committee is continuing. We know the Opposition feels strongly about this issue and is not backing down but it will agree not to have a vote. It is important to listen to Deputy Fitzpatrick. I was right in appealing to members to listen to him, a man of common sense and a wise individual. If legislation is not passed, is it true that Ireland will be fined €50 million per week, saecula saeculorum, by the EU?

Chairman

Absolutely not. There are seven cases in respect of the Common Fisheries Policy before the European courts at present that will have to be determined by them. If sanctions are imposed, that is a different matter. As Deputy Perry pointed out earlier, no legislation enacted now will have any effect on those seven cases. They cannot be retrospective. We will suspend for five minutes because I want to be clear on this issue and I want the Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, to confirm and clarify the matters for us.

Mr. Broughan

Is it the Chairman's intention to proceed with the other business and to complete our schedule by 4.15 p.m.?

Chairman

It is possible that we will not take the Bill today. We will take the two motions that have to be debated. I propose that we suspend for five minutes.

The select committee went into private session at 3.35 p.m. and resumed in public session at 3.40 p.m.

Chairman

The Minister of State will be aware that I put a motion on taking the Sea-Fisheries and Maritime Jurisdiction Bill 2005 either next Tuesday, Thursday or Friday. Will the Minister of State confirm if the Dáil will refer the Bill by order to this committee to be taken next week?

Mr. Gallagher

My information, through my private secretary, from the Whip's office is that the proposed guillotine will not be imposed. If consideration of the Bill extends to 1 p.m., I presume the debate will be adjourned and if the debate concludes prior to that time I expect a question will be put.

Chairman

The Minister of State will have heard comments from the Opposition members on this Bill in the private and public sessions. Would it make more sense to tease out the Bill in committee at a suitable date after Christmas? As Opposition members indicated, the committee is prepared to make itself available, even during the recess in January, to devote a number of days, if necessary, to deal with all the amendments Opposition members indicated they would table and those the Minister of State would table. Would it make more sense to debate the Bill in committee to ensure we have good legislation rather than rushing consideration of it?

Mr. Gallagher

I will be available and will reschedule appointments in my calendar if the committee decides to deal with the Bill during that period. I am here to work with the committee.

Chairman

I withdraw the proposal. When the Dáil orders that the select committee will consider the Bill, is it agreed that the clerk to the committee will arrange a date for consideration of it during the recess?

Mr. Eamon Ryan

If the Government is keen to get this Bill passed quickly, I would like to assist in doing that. We should not set a date for consideration of it. As to whether it will be before or after Christmas is a matter for the Government to decide rather than us as the committee. We should await direction from the Government. I presume it will be the Cabinet. I do not know how the process of the timing of the taking of Bills is decided. I imagine it is not in our remit as a committee to decide when the Government will present a Bill.

Chairman

It is the sole prerogative of the committee to decide when it will take the Bill in committee.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

Is it the sole prerogative of this committee?

Chairman

Yes, but the Dáil must conclude its consideration of Second Stage and refer the Bill to our committee for consideration. It is the committee that decides when it will take the Bill. Rather than arranging another meeting to decide when we will take the Bill, do members agree that if a suitable date——

Mr. Eamon Ryan

I am inclined to the view that it should be before rather than after Christmas.

Chairman

That is provided the Dáil has completed Second Stage.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

Exactly.

Mr. Broughan

The key point is that we need sufficient time to evaluate it properly and discuss amendments to it.

Chairman

Is it agreed that if the Dáil completes Second Stage, we will ask the clerk to the committee to put forward a date for our consideration of the Bill?

Mr. Perry

The removal of the guillotine on the debate will allow time for amendments to be formulated and tabled. That makes great sense as it would be impossible to deal with amendments to this Bill which has 70 sections in a short time span. What has been agreed will facilitate the tabling of amendments on Committee Stage when Second Stage is completed and the necessary timeframe for that will fall into place.

Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed. As is normal practice, we will communicate with the Opposition Whip to arrange a suitable date for our consideration of the Bill.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

I take it we are not ruling out a date for consideration of it before Christmas.

Chairman

No. That is what we have said depending on whether a suitable date can be agreed and the Bill has completed Second Stage in the Dáil.

We will move on to other business. I propose to take the motion on the Tampere Convention and, as agreed at the outset, the Supplementary Estimate. It is unlikely we will be able to deal with the Bill before us today and I do not want pre-empt what will happen at this meeting. I call on the Minister of State to go through theTampere Convention.

Mr. Broughan

I agree with what the Chairman said because we do not have time to do justice to consideration of the Supplementary Estimate. I understand the Minister of State is busy and he must deal with a significant amount of business. The Sea Pollution (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill has been published for more than a year and a half. I had forgotten I tabled amendments to it. Perhaps it could be disposed of at an early opportunity as it should have been passed last year.

Chairman

If the Deputy wishes, we can suspend at 4.15 p.m., as the Minister of State has a pressing engagement, and resume later or adjourn until we can arrange another day to complete that Bill.

Mr. Broughan

An hour needs to be allocated for consideration of it at a future meeting.

Chairman

I take it that we will proceed——

Mr. Eamon Ryan

As it is not a contentious Bill, we should be able to deal with it quickly. The amendments to it are not particularly contentious.

Mr. Gallagher

I would like to make an important point. We must deal with the Tampere Convention, the Bill and the Supplementary Estimate. I wish to highlight, for the information of the committee, the importance of the Supplementary Estimate which is to put in place funding for decommissioning. We must put our token €1,000 on the line. That is the most pressing business, even more pressing than the Tampere Convention.

Chairman

We will take the Supplementary Estimate first with the agreement of the committee.