Select Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 30 Nov 2022

Vote 45 - Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science (Supplementary)

Chairman

No apologies have been received. As the Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins, is an ex officio member of the committee, we have a quorum. I remind members to please ensure their mobile phones are switched off. I ask witnesses to put their mobile phones on silent or airplane mode.

The meeting will consider the Supplementary Estimates for Vote 26, Education, and Vote 45, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, which were referred to this committee by the Dáil. I welcome the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, and her officials to the meeting. I also thank her for the briefing documents she provided prior to today. Members can ask general questions on Vote 26. They will each have a five-minute slot, approximately, depending on the number of members who turn up. I call the Minister to make her opening statement.

Minister for Education (Deputy Norma Foley)

I am pleased to be here with officials from my Department. I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak to members and for its consideration of the Department’s Supplementary Estimate for 2022. Following approval by the Government, the Department of Education is seeking a net Supplementary Estimate of €852 million for 2022. This is a significant supplementary requirement for my Department and represents a variation on the Department's overall net Revised Estimates Volume, REV, allocation for 2022 of approximately 9.5%.

A number of factors gave rise to this level of Supplementary Estimate requirement that were not provided for in the original allocation for Vote 26 in 2022. These include additional funding to provide for continuation of certain Covid-19 supports in our schools; services and accommodation needed for the additional Ukrainian students in the school system; backdating of public sector pay and pension increases introduced through the extension to the Building Momentum agreement; and cost-of-living measures that were agreed during the year and will be paid out in 2022. The Department has provided a detailed briefing on this Supplementary Estimate for committee members, but I will briefly outline the key elements for the information of the committee.

An additional €96 million in Covid-19 grants was paid to schools to cover the costs for personal protective equipment, PPE, hand sanitiser, and enhanced cleaning for term three of the 2021-22 school year and term one of the 2022-23 school year. Members will recall that the original REV included a €51 million allocation for such grants for term two of the 2021-22 year covering January to Easter 2022. Given the uncertainty surrounding Covid-19, it was previously flagged to the committee that an allocation in respect of the remainder of 2022 would be made at a later point, if required.

Additional grant funding of €90 million is also being provided to schools for the 2022-23 school year, as announced on budget day 2023. This once-off payment is to provide additional support to schools, given general inflation and increasing energy prices. It is due to be paid to recognised schools in the free education scheme before the end of this current school term.

In September 2022, the Government approved an extension to the terms of the Building Momentum agreement to the end of 2023. This included a 3% increase, backdated to February 2022, that was not provided for in the original 2022 allocation. This backdated increase requires €200 million of additional funding to cover public sector staff and pensioners across the education sector and is paid from the Department’s Vote 26. There were also additional pay requirements in the school sector of €153 million. These requirements are mainly due to the need to allocate funding for extra staffing resources in schools. This includes additional resources for the Covid learning and support scheme, CLASS, delivered over the 2021-22 school year that was designed to mitigate against learning loss and support pupil-student mental health and well-being in light of the impact of Covid; an enhanced 2022 summer education programme for pupils with complex special educational needs and those at greatest risk of educational disadvantage; additional staff being allocated to schools due to social distancing Covid-19 requirements; increased enrolments as a result of the ongoing crisis in Ukraine; additional school substitution costs arising due to the level of Covid-19 related absences; and a range of other payroll subhead pressures.

Some €69 million of additional school transport funding is required for a range of initiatives and additional services introduced during 2022. This includes cost-of-living measures to waive fees for the 2022-23 school year; the provision of additional services due to an increased number of pupils seeking places on school buses; and fuel contributions paid to bus contractors in response to the impact that rising energy costs have on the school transport scheme. Some €6 million in additional Covid-19 funding is required to cover the costs of enhanced cleaning on school buses along with other expenditure pressures across the existing school transport services.

A decision was taken by the Government earlier in the year to waive the fees for junior and senior cycle students sitting the 2022 State examinations.

This was in recognition of the impact of Covid-19 on this cohort of students since the onset of the pandemic in early 2020. Due to the ongoing challenges in the recruitment of examiners, an increase was again applied to the 2022 rates paid for correcting State examinations. The waiver of fees and increased examiner rates amount to an additional €14 million of funding being required by the State Examinations Commission.

A significant additional capital allocation of €300 million is provided for in this Supplementary Estimate. This is required to meet significant budgetary pressures primarily due to a strong spend on delivery in 2022 across the school building programme, which includes managing the national development plan roll-out and associated increased construction costs of €145 million; accelerated delivery of accommodation for children with special education needs for around 900 pupils at a cost of €100 million; and the accelerated delivery of accommodation for provision of post-primary places for Ukrainian students, costing approximately €55 million. This funding was required in particular due to the demand-led nature of the school building programme to support the operation of the school system. More than 360 projects in construction in 2022. This involves in excess of 50 new or replacement school buildings and in excess of 310 extensions to existing schools, the majority of which will be completed by the end of 2023.

The Department had to increase its published basic building costs by 21% based on reviews of actual tender outcomes during quarter 1 2021 and quarter 2 2022. It was also required for accelerated delivery of accommodation for children with special education needs, SEN. Delivering SEN at pace has involved an investment of €100 million over and above normal project delivery to enable over 900 children with special education needs to access an appropriate school place. This is a legal and constitutional requirement. This accelerated delivery was achieved through 83 projects involving mainly modular accommodation. There are big pressures on the SEN front at post-primary level and in large urban centres at primary level, with assessments of needs backlogs and increased evidence of autism.

The funding was also required for accelerated delivery of accommodation for the provision of post-primary places for Ukrainian students, at a cost of €55 million. While we are managing the bulk of Ukrainian provision within existing capacity wherever possible, our greatest pressure in capacity is at post-primary level where we are still in a period of rising demographics and significant special needs capacity deficits. Around 40% of the overall additional mainstream requirements in 2022 are driven by Ukraine enrolments. This €55 million relates to 45 projects at post-primary level.

An estimated additional €73 million in appropriations-in-aid income in excess of the amount provided for in the original REV allocations is included in the Supplementary Estimate and will partly offset the expenditure pressures I have outlined. The bulk of this additional income is represented by increased pension contributions, with some additional receipts due to refunds by schools of unspent 2021-22 Covid-19 grants. I am happy to discuss these issues in more detail. I commend the Supplementary Estimate to the committee.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

The €46 million for school transport under cost-of-living measures was announced before the budget. At the time of the budget, the Minister indicated she had received clearance from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for additional funding for buses where students who previously had a concessionary place on which they had come to rely did not secure a place in September last. Does the Minister have a sense of how much that will cost? How many additional places have been announced since the budget under that scheme?

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Deputy. In the round, more than 150,000 students are availing of school transport. There has been a 23% increase in overall uptake of tickets this year, with a 33% increase in the number of concessionary tickets. Of the €69 million provided for in the Supplementary Estimate, €20 million relates to the waiver of the scheme in the first place. Additional eligibility will account for around €11 million of that, while €15 million is provided for fuel subvention and €6 million is allocated for enhanced Covid-19 cleaning and so forth. Regarding the specific number of students who have been accommodated, provision is demand led. Bus Éireann is still working through this and making provision for routes and additional places on buses, so the final figures are not yet available but will be in due course. I will make them available to the Deputy when I have them.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I welcome the fact that Fórsa and the Department reached agreement on a deal for school secretaries earlier this year. That pay deal, I understand, was to be backdated to September 2021. Has that been processed at this point in time? Where does it stand in terms of increased pay for school secretaries? With regard to Western Building Solutions, or whichever contractor was involved in schools in which defects were found, have the additional costs of remediating those defects been budgeted for?

Regarding the €245 million allocated for school buildings, an issue I have come across three times recently is the Department's reluctance to fund school halls that can be used for sport and physical education, PE, etc. In one instance, there was an outright refusal to fund the hall, while in another, a multipurpose room was provided but that does not satisfy the need for a hall because it is too small. In a third case, a school is struggling to get clearance for a hall. We are proposing to have PE available as a subject for all students at leaving certificate level, if they want it, and we also have the context of Healthy Ireland and everything we are trying to promote with that initiative. There seems to be a blockage when it comes to schools being able to access funding for a school hall, whether in the context of a new building or renovation. I do not know if the Minister can give an answer on that issue but I urge her to address it within her Department. As I said, I have come across three schools in the last three months or so that are having difficulty accessing funding for a hall.

Deputy Norma Foley

I do not want to comment on the litigation the Deputy referenced.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I am not looking for the Minister to comment and perhaps it is not possible to put a figure on it. Has the Department budgeted for it in the abstract?

Deputy Norma Foley

I will make no reference to it at all, with all due respect.

On school secretaries, the Deputy will be aware that the Department has been in engagement with schools to gather specific data on school secretaries. School secretaries have a choice as to whether to opt in to the pay deal. All schools have been informed of the new rates of pay. The agreement will be backdated to September. Data gathering is ongoing. I can keep the Deputy updated on the completion of that.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Does the Minister have a rough timescale for completing that?

Deputy Norma Foley

Different schools are moving at difference paces.

On school halls, I understand the Deputy's point. I visit schools throughout the country all the time. I am aware of the issues and challenges. School halls are in the national development plan, which is running until 2030. It is a significant financial investment. A general purpose hall costs approximately €1 million and a sports hall costs approximately €3 million. It is a big investment. I have asked my officials to look at a mechanism for bringing back the completion date from 2030. It is in the plan but it demands freeing up considerable financial resources. I am appearing before the committee with a Supplementary Estimate of €852 million, which is substantial for a Department with an entire budget of almost €10 billion. There are pressures in the capital vote. On the other side, 360 projects in construction this year will be completed in 2023. That will create 30,000 places, including 1,900 places in special education. In addition, 150 building projects are at different stages of development within the Department. There is a huge amount of building and construction under way, notwithstanding the specific issue the Deputy raised regarding school halls. This issue is on my agenda. It will be a matter of finding the resources and bringing the programme forward from 2030 closer. That is where we are at present.

I was not prepared for another question.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

It is a considerable Supplementary Estimate, €852 million, and yet the headwinds within the economy are such that every single part of that Estimate has good reason to be there. We can all see it from the ongoing Covid provisions to catering for Ukrainian students. Even things like general building costs have escalated. That is one point that I would receive positively. It is very good to see that the building programme is going ahead when there are barriers to construction all across the economy. It is very welcome indeed.

The questions I have are on items that have been threshed out at some length in this committee already. My first question is around the summer education programme, which has been discussed at length at the Joint Committee on Autism. I accept that we chose to expand it to try to make back some of the educational losses, particularly those caused by Covid. However, I have a slight concern that in trying to make the programme too wide, we have strayed quite far from what it was originally intended to do. At the autism committee we heard many families' testimonies on that. It might be outside of the Supplementary Estimate as such, but the additional substitution costs bring to mind the difficulty we are having in getting teachers and substitute teachers, particularly around the Dublin area. There is a weighting for teachers in London, but I do not know if that would work in the Irish context. I would be interested to hear if the Department has ever considered it.

I have written to the Department before and put down parliamentary questions on the subject of school buses. Public transport services often run alongside school bus provision. One may not be cognisant of what the other is doing. There should be a way of getting increased efficiencies and more places to school kids in a way that also provides public services to other people.

The idea of solar schools is something that was announced in the budget. Am I right in thinking it is the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications that is going to be funding that? I do not see mention of it here. We are all anxious to see solar panels on our schools as soon as is practicable, but I would like to see where the money is coming from.

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Deputy for his question. The summer provision programme has proven to be very successful and positive. I hear what is being said in terms of how it was originally envisaged and how it is progressing now. It is for children and young people with additional needs but also for those who are at risk of educational disadvantage. We have seen considerable investment by the Department in that respect. In budget 2023, €40 million has been announced to make provision for that. It is important that we have a summer provision that can meet the needs of the children who need it most, that is, children with additional needs and children at risk of educational disadvantage. I accept that there are new and better ways to do things. That is why we are currently reviewing the summer provision programme. We are engaging with best practice internationally and looking at how other places are doing it. We are looking at opportunities for others to come on stream in order that it is not fully reliant on the school and the school staff who may choose, for their own legitimate reasons, not to be involved in it. I appreciate that there are many school staff who are providing their expertise and time.

This year, we introduced many new initiatives to ensure the summer provision would be more user-friendly for the schools. We appointed an overseer. We ensured no principal would feel that they would have to take responsibility. We also introduced a new online payment system. To go back to the point that the Deputy was making, we are currently reviewing all aspects of it to ensure it is doing what we want it to do and is meeting the needs of all children. That review is ongoing but it is also coupled with engaging with seeing best practice. I have seen very good practice in this country. I want to acknowledge that. We have the opportunity to look elsewhere as well.

Regarding the London allowance or other allowances that are being paid, I do not want to take away from the challenges regarding substitution. The challenges are greater in some areas than in others. Teachers' pay has increased significantly in this country. The starting pay for a new entrant at primary level is around just short of €40,000. In Northern Ireland, the starting point is £27,800. In London, where they have the salary with the top-up, it is around the same as we pay here. I make that point as a comparison when reference is made to what is happening in other places. That is not for one minute to take away from the particular challenges we have with the cost of living and the challenges that exist for schools, particularly in Dublin. We are continuing in a spirit of engagement with all of the partners to address the issue.

I appreciate that Deputy Ó Cathasaigh has a special interest in transport and public transport. School transport is part of our ongoing reviews. We are very much feeding in to potentials and possibilities that might exist for us to deliver the system in an innovative way. We are looking at everything in that respect.

The solar panel scheme for our schools is very positive and good news for our schools. It will be financed by the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. We are working closely with the Department. It is really good news for the schools.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The Minister will agree that even better than spending your own Department's money is spending another Department's money.

Deputy Norma Foley

We will do it well though. We manage money very well.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I welcome the Minister, Deputy Foley, and her officials here this evening. I would like to follow on from what Deputy Ó Cathasaigh finished with in relation to the summer programme. I commend the Minister on the changes that were made last year. I have said it here before that I was one of those who doubted that the money would be drawn down in its entirety but it came very close to doing that so I give credit where it is due.

Reference was made to the fact that a review is being conducted into that programme. Can the Minister give us an indication of whether that will conclude in time for next year's intake?

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

It will. Okay, that is very good. My second question follows on from a point that was raised earlier about free books. The free book scheme is another scheme that is universally welcomed. The Minister might have referenced in the past that it is her ambition in the future, budgetary constraints permitting, to extend that scheme into second level. Could she comment on that?

Deputy Norma Foley

It is very much the intention that the review of the summer programme will be completed in advance of the provision of the programme for next summer. The entire focus is to find new ways to deliver it and to lessen the burden placed on schools. The ambition is that we would have that done.

Regarding free books, we had a €50 million package available to us which meant that we could achieve it at primary school level. Without doubt, the ambition is to develop that and carry it over into post-primary level. It will be subject to budgetary constraints at any given time when we are negotiating around the budget, but it is a very positive first step in the right direction for families and students. No student is limited by their family's limited financial resources when it comes to providing the necessary books for their education.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

That is good to hear again. We will try to reiterate it at every juncture we can. If I can be parochial on one issue while dealing with the capital programme, I would like to mention the special school site in Glanmire, County Cork. Can the Minister give an update on how that site is progressing? The constraints we have in Cork, in particular, in relation to special school places are well documented.

Much of that was resolved with the opening of the schools in Carrigaline and the most recent developments in Rochestown. To accommodate the growing need going forward, does the Minister have an update on Glanmire specifically ?

Deputy Norma Foley

The Deputy is correct that we have made significant progress on special educational needs, SEN, provision, whether in the special schools he mentioned or the additional places. Come next year, we will be in a position to say that almost 3,000 special class places are available. It is a huge number compared with where we were. I will revert to the Deputy on the specific case he raised in Cork and give him a response on that. I am mindful that we do not stand still and that we move forward in the provision of appropriate services for children with additional needs.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I ask about the introduction of children's disability network teams, CDNTs, to special schools. There was an issue with their union about their reappointment. That has been dealt with. Will the Minister update the committee on where we are in the reintroduction of CDNTs to special schools?

Deputy Norma Foley

The Deputy will appreciate that during the Covid-19 pandemic, there were knock-on effects on our special schools and the development of community-based education. The Department has worked closely with the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte. We have had a number of engagements with her and with the wider partners in education on this. An agreement has been reached for CDNTs to return to special schools. Where it was possible to do it immediately, it was done immediately and we are continuing to work through it. I acknowledge the work of the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, in particular on this. She is equally committed to seeing them return to special schools. It is a positive development for special schools.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I have raised the matter of home school community liaison officers in special schools via written parliamentary questions and occasionally via an oral parliamentary question. The response from the Department has been that special schools get an allocation of teachers which is far in excess of a mainstream school. However, the specific focus of a home school community liaison officer is to involve and support parents. We need to look at it seriously and I hope the Minister might consider that in the preparation of future budgets.

Deputy Norma Foley

I acknowledge this is a matter close to the Deputy's heart and that he has raised it on a number of occasions. It has also been raised with me when I have visited special schools and I hear the argument being made in its favour. He is correct that the Department will point to enhanced allocations in staffing. However, notwithstanding that, I have enormous admiration for the work that is done by home school community liaison staff. We will continue to keep it under review. Everything is a budgetary concern and a financial consideration. That is the reason I am before the committee. However, it is on my radar and I must keep it under review.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Most of my questions have been answered but I want to ask about school transport under Vote 26. When did the Minister say the review will be completed? In the Supplementary Estimates, €69 million is allocated for additional places in 2022, but the difficulty is that some families are still left behind. I will give an example of a family in Charlestown. They have two children, James and Clodagh. James is registered blind. Both children have always taken the bus to school until this year. They still do not have seats on the bus. James and Clodagh's parents have tried to get transport for James through the school but they are still waiting for that. Even if they are awarded transport, Clodagh will not be able to go to school with him. The reason I give that example is that while it was very good we were able to provide free transport, the way it was rolled out was terrible. Situations where children like James and Clodagh cannot get on the bus, it makes things difficult for their parents. When will the review be finished? What can we do to alleviate cases of people who deserve transport?

Deputy Norma Foley

I will be clear about the case raised by Deputy Conway-Walsh. Any child or young person with a special educational need, for example, a child who is visually impaired, has an entitlement. I will be honest that in some areas there have been difficulties in recruiting additional drivers or procuring additional buses. There are no two ways about it, but that is notwithstanding the absolute entitlement of a child with an additional need to a place on the bus. In fact, children and young people with additional needs can apply for school transport at any time throughout the year, such is the determination of the Department to ensure they are catered for. I will look into the case the Deputy raised. It may be an issue of availability of transport or bus driver. In the interim, a grant is available to the family. I am happy to take the detail and look into it.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I know the Minister will agree that such situations are not acceptable.

Do we understand from the figures that fees will be in reintroduced next year for the applications that will open in springtime? I urge the Minister to make free school transport permanent because of the economic cost for parents, but also because of climate change and the need to reduce emissions. Free school transport makes sense in so many ways.

I also flag to the Minister that many people are attending a local school but it is not their closest school, and in rural Ireland, we do not have the choice of subjects. For example, we want to encourage more students to take up physics, so if it is not available at their nearest school but is available at another school that is farther way, we should incentivise that by enabling school transport. I ask the Minister to make things as flexible as possible in the review. People will not exploit the situation. School transport feeds into our workforce planning and the educational pathways we are enabling our students to follow. It is an integral part of that.

Deputy Norma Foley

I accept that. For example, as regards the nearest school, the Deputy will appreciate that I introduced a temporary alleviation measure this year and last year, which means students who meet the criteria are now eligible for free transport to what might not be their nearest school. It can also be their next nearest school. There is an element of choice to facilitate them.

The review is looking at all aspects, including distance, eligibility and all the criteria. It is an extraordinarily enormous body of work because there has been phenomenal engagement not only from parents, students and those using school transport, but probably more importantly, from those who do not have access to it. The providers have also engaged in the consultation process. We are trying to complete it as soon as we can. The demand for school transport has increased because of children coming from other countries, especially the huge number of children who have come from Ukraine. A significant number of Ukrainian children are being catered for. A body of work remains to be completed but it is close to completion and will be expedited. I hear the points raised by the Deputy. They are part of the review and many of the reasons she listed are the catalysts for the review in the first place. I know the value of school transport as I come from a rural constituency.

I know the value to working parents making plans as to their availability and how they can manage getting their children to school. I understand the importance of getting it right to the best of our ability. I also know that there will be a very strong money message with it and the Deputy has referenced the cost. That will be another debate.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Is an evaluation of the policy decision included as part of the review to stop free school transport? The Minister is aware of the policy changes that were made after Mary Coughlan's review in 2009 or 2010. Was an evaluation done on it and is that available? How much did we save within the Department by introducing charges and making concessionary students and eligible students and all that?

Deputy Norma Foley

I will revert to the Deputy on that. The whole impetus for the current review of the school transport system is to ensure that we gain the advantage of the maximum number of children and young people availing of the bus. This ensures there are less people transporting children to school. There are a wide variety of reasons for doing this review including from a climate point of view, as the Deputy referenced, or an accommodation and accessibility point of view for families to broaden education opportunities for children. By doing it and getting it right we ensure we can get the maximum number of children availing of it. In terms of the specific question asked, if it is there I will revert on it.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I hope it is. I will leave my questions at that.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I am a little late as a few meetings are coinciding tonight. The Minister is always welcome to the committee, and I congratulate her on the continued good work of her Department. On budget day I was delighted to see €5 million secured by the Minister to provide a pilot scheme for in-school counselling support. I will speak on that for a moment. I was invited recently to Gaelscoil Mhíchíl Cíosóg, Ennis. She visited it herself about 18 months ago. It is an incredible school through trí mheán na Gaeilge. It is on the Galway side of Ennis just as you leave town. Dónal Ó hAiniféin and his team of teachers have excelled over many years. Their latest initiative is an in-school counsellor and play therapist, which the board of management started funding from its own coffers before the Minister's announcement on budget day. She is a qualified psychotherapist too. Her name is Aideen Flynn, and about two weeks ago I was invited to shadow her in the room and watch how a session got under way. It was incredible. They have a post holder who deals with mental health and wellbeing. The school team grasped all of this coming out of the Covid pandemic knowing, as we all do, that it had been particularly tough on kids. They are looking to be one of the pilot schools because they already have a template for this. They have a policy and a post holder. They have someone they are already employing and this year, from September 2022 to June 2023, they hope to see 37 children avail of this support and they reckon they could increase that threefold if they were given some support from the Department. That is my first question. While the Minister probably cannot commit to a specific school, I just wanted to mention that and I am delighted to see her advisers writing down the name of the school. That in itself is a little win today.

The are two other things I want to put to the Minister. For me, it was the highlight of the past 12 months in government to see that school transport scheme announced. We know there were teething problems but let us go back to what the actual scheme was about. It was about making it free for a child to go from home to school and back again each day. It is an incredible scheme that needs refinement and while more again can be done to refine it, the very premise of the scheme was fantastic. I said at the last committee meeting the Minister attended that this is a scheme we should be trying to roll out and improve upon year on year and implement on a wider scale. If you think of any school in the country, a couple of hundred cars each day queue up in the morning to see the child go in the door and then collect them again in the afternoon. When you think of the months of July and August, you can pick any town, city or large village in the country and you can nip from one side to the other very easily because the school traffic is off the road. Your cabinet colleague the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, can talk about metro north and rail passing lines and greening everything but imagine taking 200 or 300 cars from a local community off the road. That would be incredible in itself. Somebody once said that five buses equals one train. That is a scheme I would love to see reactivated. Finally, now that the Department of Education will be in the process of funding and making schoolbooks free at primary level, I ask that the Department officials exercise a little oversight on the publishers. The idea of a revised edition each year does not wash with me. I have seen it many times as a teacher. There might be a stanza taken out of a poem or there might be additional questions put on page 18. That is not a revised edition. That will be very unfair if it happens next year. It will exploit the goodness of the scheme. I ask the Department to have a little bit of oversight in order that the publishers do not start bringing out a tranche of new editions. If a book was good enough in 2018, it is good enough in 2022. We do not need all of these revisions.

Deputy Norma Foley

I appreciate the Deputy sharing his experiences of the Gaelscoil. I visited it myself and I have seen at first hand the excellent operation. I am very pleased to hear of the initiative he referenced. As he noted, we have already secured €5 million and it is very much the ambition of the Department to run this as a pilot. It is not before time. It can be an invaluable resource to the schools. I do want to acknowledge that great work happens every day in schools in terms of the whole wellbeing space. The Deputy referenced the existence of a wellbeing post and it would be my ambition for that to be the case we see replicated across the country. These are the first and tentative steps we are taking in this direction around supporting the good practice that exists in so many of our schools by putting in the resources in terms of counselling. Work is being done on the pilot and how it will be run out. It will include a variety of types and sizes of schools and all of that. Turning to school transport, again I welcome the positive points made and the Deputy is 100% right. Previous Deputies have also referenced this but the more we can do to take more cars off the road, the more enormous the benefit will be. That is a given. As I said earlier, we will be looking at every possible opportunity in terms of widened criteria and investigating and interrogating criteria. Regarding the schoolbooks, I take the point. It is an important initiative for our schools. I made reference earlier that we are beginning in primary school as a first step and it is my ambition, if budgetary considerations allow, that we move to post-primary. Engagement with publishers, retailers and every education stakeholder is envisaged to be part of the schoolbook scheme and its roll-out. There is an opportunity for everybody to be part of the system in advance of the roll-out. I am well aware of the other point the Deputy made about book revisions where it could be a stanza or this and that. There is and should be an understanding that the minimum alteration in a book should not determine that a new edition of a book needs to be published. There is engagement and will be further engagement between the Department and those in that field to ensure the maximum potential will be given to use and reuse a book. This is the world in which we now live. It is very important that the maximum usage of a book is provided for. I absolutely hear the point and it is a fair point.

Chairman

I have raised the matter of deputy principals for primary schools previously with the Minister, specifically larger primary schools, across the country. What progress has been made on this recently?

Deputy Norma Foley

In general, we are speaking across all our schools of distributed leadership. I acknowledge that the principal alone cannot and should not have to carry everything. We are now in a position where one in three in our schools is a post holder of some type or other. From having been in schools myself, I am aware there is a view that it is to the advantage of the school to have this distributed leadership and that a team approach is being taken and the principal is supported in their work,whether via the deputy principal or the post of responsibilities.

We have seen considerable movement in the last number of years in that respect. For example, as a consequence of budgetary measures we have introduced, we have moved to a situation where teaching principals automatically become administrative principals if they have two or more special education classes. That is changing the experience of school for so many school leaders and we intend to build on that going forward. One in three staff is now post of responsibility holders or holders of some type of position within the school environment and we will grow that going forward and consider it again when we go to the budget at the end of next year.

Chairman

I have no doubt the Minister is aware of the National Parents Council Post-Primary and the National Parents Primary which represent parents and guardians of students in primary and post-primary schools. I want to refer to the National Parents Council Post-Primary. Funding for this organisation both this year and last year has been delayed by her Department despite the very positive development at the National Parents Council Post-Primary, NPCPP. Like in any organisation, this funding is critical to run the organisation. Can the Minister give some form of commitment that this funding will be forthcoming? Department officials are writing to the National Parents Council Post-Primary looking for confirmation but this is despite repeated confirmation by the registered auditors of the National Parents Council Post-Primary of its excellence governance from a financial and legal point of view, and also getting a very clean bill of health from the Revenue Commissioners, the Charities Regulator, CR, the Companies Registration Office, CRO, and other national bodies. I genuinely believe it is a scandal that funding is being delayed. It did a fantastic job during Covid-19 and assisted the Minister's Department around the leaving certificate. I would appreciate a reply.

Deputy Norma Foley

I acknowledge the work of all our education partners, and I include the parents here, and how invaluable that partnership approach is. Engagement with my Department and the National Parents Council Post-Primary is ongoing and my understanding is that there are some outstanding questions that need to be resolved. There is also a governance review under way and it is important that be allowed to continue. My Department is very open and happy to continue engagement with the post-primary parents and their organisation but where there are questions the Department needs answers or where it needs information, it must be in receipt of that also. There is an obligation on us to have the fullest of information available, notwithstanding that I am very appreciative of the work that has been done and of all that has been achieved, but we have an obligation to satisfy that the information we require is made available and when it is, that will be sufficient.

Chairman

I would not call the review very independent because it was an independent review in partnership with the National Parents Council Post-Primary, but it was the Minister's Department that appointed the company to carry the review. I would not call that very independent. If one is looking for an independent review, there has to be agreement on both sides and terms and conditions drawn up. The information I have received is that the Department went off and carried out its own review. I think that is totally unfair. The National Parents Council Post-Primary might have had issues in the past but it has ironed out those issues and its auditors have given a clean bill of health both on the financial statements and on the legal side. It has had investigations from the Revenue Commissioners, the CRO, the CR and the Corporate Enforcement Authority and has gotten a clean bill of health. These are bodies the Department of Education should recognise and it should be able to move on. If some of the officials in the Minister's Department have issues regarding the National Parents Council Post-Primary, we have to move on from that. I think it should be funded. Funding has been delayed. This has not just been an issue this year but it has been an ongoing issue for the past number of years. It states it has had a clean bill of health.

I am not sure if the Minister has met with the National Parents Council Post-Primary, but I understand she has met the National Parents Council Primary. I would plead with the Minister, as Minister, that she meet it as head of the Department of Education. This is really important from an organisational point of view. It represents parents and guardians of thousands of children up and down the country. At a time when it has launched its own five-year development plan, it cannot even have a discussion with some of the Department officials on this document.

Deputy Norma Foley

I want to be very clear. The Chair referenced the independence or otherwise of the governance review. There was an open tender process for that and that would be the correct procedure one would normally follow in any instance. I do not think we can get anything more independent than an open tender. Indeed it was discussed with the NPCPP. The terms were also shared with the NPCPP and there was significant time given to it in terms of questions that remained unanswered and that allocation of time was right and proper. However, the information remains outstanding.

Funding was made available in August 2022 to the NPCPP. However, I want to be very clear that there are some questions that remain outstanding and when that information is provided to the Department, we will be able to progress. It is important that the information is supplied to the Department and I expect and anticipate it. The Chair seems to be taking a particular interest in it, which I welcome. To communicate to him and everyone, when that information is made available satisfactorily to the Department, we will be able to proceed further.

Chairman

I am taking a particular interest as I think there is an issue of fairness here. I refer to some officials in the Minister's Department. She needs to get directly involved here. I would encourage the Minister to meet the National Parents Council Post-Primary and to discuss its five-year development plan which meets the requirements of a very changing society in secondary schools and post-primary education. I will leave it at that but I would urge the Minister to get directly involved because I believe there is a matter of fairness here in terms of this issue. I will not ask the Minister to comment on it any further. I have given my views. I am a voice for many different organisations, as is every member of this committee, within the education sector.

Deputy Norma Foley

I absolutely welcome the Chair's involvement and engagement and that is exactly what I would anticipate and expect from the committee. I have no issue at all and will be very happy to provide the Chair with the fullest of information regarding the review and engagement we have had. I reiterate that I look forward to the outstanding questions being answered as a priority and as expeditiously as possible by the NPCPP.

I wish to say one thing though. My officials operate in good faith every single day and I have every confidence in their abilities. They give 110% every single day in the Department. They represent the Department and do good work faithfully and honestly.

For the record, I have no issue whatsoever with the manner in which my officials are engaging with anyone on behalf of the Department.

Chairman

Can the Minister share the outstanding issues that she is waiting on the National Parents Council Post Primary to submit to her Department?

Deputy Norma Foley

As I said, in due course-----

Chairman

Can the Minister share that with the committee?

Deputy Norma Foley

-----I will give the committee the full list of information available to me about the review and the engagement that we have had. I will ensure that is made available to the committee.

Chairman

I thank the Minister. I have another question. The Minister is aware of St. Patrick’s special school in Enniscorthy. She will have visited it. It is a new special school that was opened earlier this year. It cost approximately €11 million to build. The school has now run out of space and is at capacity. It is renting three classrooms from an adjoining school. As the Minister knows, special education is a very important component of our educational system. It is of huge comfort to parents with children with special needs for St. Patrick’s School and many other schools like it to be able to cater for the needs of their children. Its intake normally would have been between 11 and 15. Since the new school opened, however, that has gone up to 30-plus. The children involved coming not just from Wexford but also from the adjoining counties. I do not expect the Minister to have the answer, but what I am seeking is that she give every consideration to an application for the school to be able to accommodate the increased numbers that its forecasts show for September 2023 and the increased needs to which the numbers for this year and last year have given rise.

Deputy Norma Foley

Just leave that with me. I appreciate the case that the Chair is making. I will look at that and revert to him. In general, considerable investment is now going into the area of special education in excess of €2.3 billion. That is right and proper. We have also recently completed a review of special classes and special school provision. That will very much inform our projections going forward for the demands that will be there going forward. I am very happy to revert to the Chair specifically on the school that he referenced.

Chairman

I thank the Minister. Do any other members have any further questions for the Minister before we close this section of the meeting?

Deputy Cathal Crowe

Will we be dealing with third level straight after this? That is my understanding.

Chairman

Yes.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

That is fine.

Chairman

The Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins, will be coming in. I thank the Minister and her officials for coming in and for the constructive engagement. We will now suspend briefly.

I have one further question just before we finish. It is an old hobby-horse of mine – the Cork Life Centre.

Deputy Norma Foley

I thought I was nearly out the door.

Chairman

How are the ongoing negotiations? I know the Minister and the Taoiseach met with the teachers and the board of the Cork Life Centre. Can she give us a brief update on where the Department is on that at the moment?

Deputy Norma Foley

I personally have had very positive engagement. Indeed, the Chair will know that the Taoiseach has also visited. I think Deputy O’Sullivan was in attendance with him. The director of Cork Life would say that we have come forward with a positive proposal for him and for the benefit of the students. There is an opportunity to put the school, as it were, on a positive footing going forward. I can confirm that even as late as today there was further engagement with the Department. This is not just from the Department’s point of view; it is heartening to see the director and the staff would recognise that we have made considerable strides. I want to acknowledge that there has been very positive engagement from this committee and a very positive interest shown in Cork Life. We have made substantial progress and we are in a much better position now than we have been and that is agreed also by Cork Life.

Chairman

On behalf of all the committee members, I thank the Minister and her officials for their positive engagement on this. It has been an issue for the committee over the past number of years. I also thank the Minister and her officials for their constructive engagement during the meeting. We will suspend briefly to allow the Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins, and his officials come in.

Sitting suspended at 6.35 p.m. and resumed at 6.37 p.m.

Chairman

I welcome the Minister of State with responsibility for skills and further education, Deputy Niall Collins, and his officials. I thank him for the briefing documents he and his Department provided prior to the meeting. I will now ask the Minister of State to make his opening statement. The members can then ask general questions on Vote 45.

Minister of State at the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science (Deputy Niall Collins)

I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak and for its consideration of the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science’s Supplementary Estimate. I am accompanied by officials from my Department.

The allocation for the Department's 2022 Supplementary Estimate was drawn up in recent weeks as part of the normal budgetary process. At a Cabinet meeting on 15 November 2022, the Government agreed to a Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science of €292.3 million. This increases the net voted allocation for this Department from €2.935 billion to €3.288 billion, allowing for further funding of three key items.

First, €134 million has been made available for key measures announced in budget 2023 to alleviate cost-of-living pressures for Irish students, researchers and the third level sector. The measures include: a one-off €1,000 reduction in the undergraduate student contribution fee for higher education students eligible for the free fees initiative; a one-off reduction of 33% in the contribution fee for apprentices in higher education; a one-off extra payment for all student maintenance grant recipients; a one-off increase of €1,000 in the support provided to Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, qualified postgraduate students, from €3,500 to €4,500; a further €8 million investment in the student assistance fund for the 2022-23 academic year; a one-off payment of €500 for researchers who receive an Irish Research Council or Science Foundation Ireland award; and one-off funding for the third level sector to assist with rising energy costs.

These measures are designed to put money back into the pockets of students and families and provide tangible and immediate relief for students from the challenges of the rising cost of living.

Second, €17.7 million in funding through this Department's Supplementary Estimate will provide third level supports to Ukrainians in Ireland in the 2022-23 academic year. We are all well aware of the profound impact that the war in Ukraine has had globally. In June 2022, the Government approved the introduction of higher education supports in the 2022-23 academic year for Ukrainian persons eligible under section 60 of the International Protection Act 2015. These supports included a new temporary administrative tuition fee scheme, a one-year bursary scheme for SOLAS-approved post-leaving certificate courses and changed eligibility criteria for the student assistance fund in the 2022-23 academic year to include eligible persons.

English-language provision is a priority. The 16 education and training boards offer appropriate English-language and additional learning supports for Ukrainians wishing to develop their language competency as part of their social, economic and cultural integration into Irish society. As of 14 November, 58,040 displaced Ukrainians have arrived into Ireland, with the Department of Justice estimating 61,000 arrivals by the end of November. To date, 63,765 temporary protection orders have been granted. There is an inherent uncertainty around the future and the level of the numbers of students who may seek to avail of third level supports during their stay in Ireland and to that end, this Department is in close engagement with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Third, there has been a once-off injection of €139 million for university superannuation costs. There is a State obligation to fund university pension costs, arising from a legal undertaking by the Departments of Public Expenditure and Education when taking over university pension funds in 2009 under the Financial Measures (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act. In recent years, the pension cost has increased in line with demographic demands. To address a shortfall in university pension schemes, this Department successfully negotiated in the 2023 Estimates process a one-off injection of €139 million in 2022 to decrease the pension funding shortfall. Additionally, this Department successfully negotiated a €20 million increase to the base funding of university pensions from 2023. This will help to build a sustainable baseline for future pension costs, as well as helping to strengthen university balance sheets.

As part of the Supplementary Estimate, this Department has also processed some technical adjustments, including pay costs in 2022 and savings expected on voted expenditure. In total, this increases the net Supplementary Estimate requirement by €1.6 million and brings the total Supplementary Estimate to €292.3 million.

I trust that this overview has been of assistance to the committee. We are happy to discuss these issues in more detail and I commend the Supplementary Estimate to the committee.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank the Minister of State. I will ask first about the announcement regarding investment in student accommodation. How much funding will be allocated in 2023 to unlock those student accommodation projects that have been sitting on the shelf for years?

Deputy Niall Collins

The figure that has been approved by the Government is €32 million. As the Deputy has described, that money is intended to unlock planning permission that is ready to be taken up. We are looking at three locations, namely, Galway, Limerick and Maynooth. The Government approved a decision this week, as the Deputy knows. The Department will arrange to advertise for expressions of interest. That will allow an opportunity to interested parties to express an interest in developing their student accommodation. We have to get European Commission approval, which we do not expect to be an issue. That will run in parallel with our Department's formulation of a formal expression of interest. The broad idea is to provide accommodation for students attending the University of Limerick, the University of Galway and Maynooth University. It is envisaged that the €32 million will provide approximately 670 bed spaces.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Is the allocation for Galway in addition to what has already been announced? A couple of hundred were at an advanced stage. Are these figures over and above those others?

Deputy Niall Collins

Yes.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

The bed spaces to which the Minister of State has referred are new.

Deputy Niall Collins

The issue, as we all know, is the cost of construction for the developers and promoters of student accommodation. This scheme will be a partnership between the three universities and promoters of student accommodation. The State will be looking to subvent the cost to the students with reference to the amount they are receiving from their Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, grants. That is the type of model involved. We need to bridge that gap. Because of the high cost of construction, it is expensive for anybody to make a student accommodation scheme pay.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I understand there are challenges in respect of financial viability. Does that mean all of the units will be affordable? Is part of the condition of the funding that all of the units that are funded by these particular projects will be affordable or will a subset of them be affordable?

Deputy Niall Collins

That will depend on the European Commission. Between 30% and 100% of the beds will form part of-----

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

There is a big difference between 30% and 100%. I want all of the beds to be affordable because I am afraid that a chunk of them will still command prices that are not affordable to ordinary students. We need to be careful about the deals we work out with the higher educational institutions, HEIs. All of those beds need to be affordable. That is the right way to go with our investment.

Deputy Niall Collins

It is a state aid intervention, which means it needs to pass muster with Europe. The Deputy will be aware that we are working to allow our technological universities to borrow to build student accommodation. That is being worked on in parallel with other measures. That is separate to what we have discussed heretofore. We hope to allow our technological universities to do that. As the Deputy knows, they could not borrow under the legacy legislation that applied to those universities when they were institutes of technology.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

We also need to be careful in that regard. Public private partnerships have long been called for. I would add a word of caution in respect of what that model ends up looking like. We must ensure we get proper value for the absolutely necessary investment. I do not believe that the €32 million is nearly enough but it is a move in the right direction. Much more than that amount will be needed.

Th reduction in fees will only apply for this academic year and college fees will increase again to €2,500 for most, and €3,000 for some, come next September.

Is that the case? That will be a big jump.

Deputy Niall Collins

Yes. There is a €1,000 reduction this year, a refund to those who had paid in full, or a credit for those who are paying by instalment. Next year, the threshold is €100,000. When a person's income falls below the threshold of €100,000, the student contribution will be to €2,500.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

We still have a situation where Ireland has very high fees. There are many countries in the European Union that provide third level education without any fees. We need to be examining how to go further in that direction so third level education is affordable for everybody.

The Minister of State will be aware that only about half of PhD researchers are funded through the Irish Research Council, IRC, and the Science Foundation Ireland, SFI organisations. These researchers earn far below the minimum wage through the stipend. The poverty wage is damaging our research system. Why was the decision made to only provide the €500 once off payment? It is only €500. Why was the decision made to only provide it to the IRC and SFI-funded PhD researchers?

Deputy Niall Collins

Those two organisation are within the remit of our Department, whereas the Deputy mentioned Teagasc-----

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

No, it was the others outside of that, not just Teagasc.

Deputy Niall Collins

They are in other Departments. We can only concern ourselves with agencies under the aegis of our Department.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

We absolutely must focus on bringing equity to our researchers, not only for them as individuals being driven into poverty with accommodation costs and everything else, but also in the context of where Ireland is going. To stay ahead of research and development, we need to encourage more researchers. We have wonderful researchers. The Minister of State has met them and I have met with some of them. We need to encourage more researchers and the way to do that is by treating them fairly and ensuring they have enough to live on.

Deputy Niall Collins

It is a fair point. We informed other Departments of what we were doing with the agencies under our remit. The equity point made by the Deputy is fair enough. In October a review was announced. I have the scope of the review. Is the Deputy aware of that?

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

When will that review be concluded?

Deputy Niall Collins

We will get a note on that for the Deputy.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Yes, if the Minister of State can. It is something we need to keep on top of.

Deputy Niall Collins

It has just commenced in October.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I note here that the Minister of State claims to be providing an additional €8 million for the student assistance fund. What will be the total allocation for the fund for this academic year?

Deputy Niall Collins

In the year 2021-2022 the total allocation was €18.5 million. In the year 2022-2023 the total amount provided is €17.1 million. I can step it back to the year 2020-2021 when it was €18.2 million, and in 2019-2020 it was €10.1 million. I also have a breakdown of the allocations to each of the different colleges and if the Deputy would like me to run through those, I can.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

No, it is okay. I am concerned that caps are being put on the funding for some of the colleges, and I have been made aware that students have been told they will only get half as much as they got last year. I spoke with the Minister, Deputy Simon Harris, about this previously. Some of the colleges in the west were told this. It is of concern to me. Also, we need to be careful around how we announce this funding when we announce an additional allocation. For example, last year we had €17.2 million and the allocation to the fund this year was €18.2 million. When announcing that there is additionality, I believe we need to enable colleges to plan. It is very difficult for colleges to plan and for student unions to plan around what they have. We are announcing it and then we are raising expectations as if there are additions there all of the time, but there is not. I note what the Minister of State said about the other years before Covid, but when we consider the past two years, there is not the additionality of the €8 million there. It is something we need to be conscious of.

Deputy Niall Collins

On a breakdown, if we take the year 2021-2022, the general student assistance fund was €18.1 million. There was an allocation of €1 million for part-time students. There was Covid or cost-of-living additional funding in the year 2021-2022 of €8.1 million and €1.3 million, which rolled up into €18.5 million. Similarly for the year 2022-2023, it is €8.1 million, with €1 million for part-time students. Again, with the €8 million for Covid and cost-of-living funding this rolled up to €17.1 million.

I have not heard what the Deputy said about the student assistance fund being told it would only get half of what it received in previous years. The autonomy is with the local higher education institutions. Broadly, and it is not an exhaustive list, one could also look at books or other class material to enable students to participate in teaching and learning. One can get payments for rent, heating, lighting bills, other utility bills, mobile phone data plans, food, essential travel, childcare costs, medical costs, and family difficulties, for example, in cases of bereavement. It is a pretty broad criteria. The Deputy knows how it works.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Of course I do, and it is very valuable and useful. The students hear of the millions and millions of euro and then they are really struggling and do not have enough for their heating or for their accommodation and for other basic things. We just need to be aware of that when we are announcing an additional €8 million in funding when we do not really see an additional €8 million. The students are finding they are cut to half of what they got last year. Maybe one of the reasons more and more students this year must access the student assistance fund is the difficulties they are having around that.

I wish to raise another issue with the Minister of State, on which he might follow up. The committee had Dyspraxia Ireland in last week. It was pleading for laptops. Have all of the laptops that were distributed through the higher education institutions all been used? Is there a way we could send out a note to the HEIs to ask if any of the laptops that have not been used could be taken back and redistributed to Dyspraxia Ireland? It explained to us that if a person has dyspraxia, having a laptop is absolutely vital to ensuring he or she can participate fully in education, yet many of them do not have access to laptops.

Deputy Niall Collins

I will get back to the Deputy on that.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I thank the Minister of State and I welcome him and his team to the committee this evening. I will put a few quick questions to him. The Minister, Deputy Harris, made a very positive announcement a few days ago about grasping the whole issue of third level accommodation. There is a university that is very well known to the Minister of State and me because we are not living too far apart. As one approaches the University of Limerick, and the Minister of State would be aware of these areas, there is a Travelodge building on the Groody roundabout, with the Aldi store. The top five levels of the Travelodge building have been vacant for the past ten years or so.

I do not expect answers here because I have thrown the Minister of State a few curveballs. Could he and his departmental officials speak with the University of Limerick to see if it can activate this? It is obvious that this building, which is so close to the campus, could be turned into student accommodation. The four levels below it are all hotel rooms, day in, day out. Could someone take note of that and maybe speak with Professor Kerstin May and the University of Limerick? The initiative that the Minister of State announced is wonderful, but sometimes it can help if there is a nudge from on high as well as from down low. Will the Minister of State pursue that?

Deputy Niall Collins

That is absolutely one location that could answer the call for expressions of interest regarding student accommodation, which will go out in the new year, since it is close to the University of Limerick.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

That is fantastic. It would be great if someone could nudge it. The other matter is the TUS campus at Coonagh and the vacant units adjacent to the Tesco store. There were many announcements three or four years ago that a fabulous faculty would be developed there. Site fencing went up. Unless much activity is going on behind the scenes, there is little visible to the naked eye. As one passes into the Tesco store, it looks like little is happening. If the Minister of State is not in a position to answer now, maybe someone could send a note later. We would love to know what is happening with that.

Deputy Niall Collins

We will send the Deputy a detailed, up-to-date note on that tomorrow. It is very advanced. If it has not gone out to tender, but it is at a point where it is about to. I know the background to it. As the Deputy noted, it has been through a journey which has taken far too long. It is fair to say that it is at a point where we will see the refurbishment and development of the site as the apprenticeship training centre, which it is earmarked to be, commencing shortly.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

Brilliant. That is really positive news.

Deputy Niall Collins

We will get the Deputy an exact update on that.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I thank the Minister of State for leading that. The building has been an eyesore. Seeing new life going in there has been great. I have two final matters to raise. Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, is proving difficult to deal with. I hold a weekly clinic with the Ukrainian population in my constituency. In the past month, two fully-qualified dentists have come to me. They are graduates of Kyiv University. They have excellent English. They want to practise their profession and QQI is telling them that their qualifications do not perfectly align with QQI. I have encountered this with other high-end professions, including some in the medical realm. We could really use these people here at the moment. We have our own shortages in the health system. These people are willing to fall into line and play a role but QQI sends them back blunt emails saying that these qualifications do not perfectly align. The question is a bit of a curveball, but I ask if somebody in the Department or Minister's office could talk to QQI to dissect what modules and how many years of training people have done. I am sure a mouth in Ukraine is similar to a mouth in Ireland and that dental treatment in Ukraine is of a similar standard to that in Ireland. As a layperson, I cannot understand how there could be any differences. It is an issue with red tape. I would love for QQI to be contacted and for that red tape to be unravelled to allow this to happen.

Deputy Niall Collins

That is a specific query about Ukrainian qualifications in dentistry. We will liaise with QQI and come back to the Deputy directly about it. On the broader issue of additional college places, €38 million was provided in 2021, with €40 million in 2022 and €32.2 million in 2023, for the provision of extra college places, particularly in high-demand courses. To respond to the national skills shortage and a review of our national skills, the Higher Education Authority has sought expressions of interest from higher education institutions with regard to building capacity in dentistry, pharmacy, medicine, nursing and veterinary fields. The Higher Education Authority received 39 expressions of interest. That is slightly separate from what the Deputy is saying. We will come back to him about QQI.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I thank the Minister of State.

Deputy Niall Collins

It is recognised that there is a shortage of dentists in the country. Work is being undertaken with the higher education institutions to provide more capacity to train more dentists.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

My last question is about a matter that occasionally arises at my constituency office. It relates to the student hardship fund that all third level institutions administer. I attended the University of Limerick and Mary Immaculate College. I thought I understood how the fund worked. It certainly helped some of my friends over the years. They were able to avail of it. It got them out of a hold. Some of the money has to be repaid and some does not. I recently gave advice to somebody. It turned out that the way I advised the person was the opposite to how that person's third level institution operated. I then became aware, when I spoke to someone I know in St. Vincent de Paul, that the fund is quite equal but how it is administered is unequal and not regularised across all third level institutions. For the times we are in, in winter 2022, when everyone is struggling with all sorts of bills, it would be no harm to have awareness campaigns on third level campuses. I am also conscious that if one generates too much awareness, this fund, which is for the neediest, could be abused. A bit of refinement is probably needed.

A circular might come from the Minister of State's Department to state how the fund should be administered. On some third level campuses, it is administered by the clergy, such as the on-campus curate or pastor, while on other campuses it is administered by student services or by the students' union. It needs to be standardised. The person I spoke to in St. Vincent de Paul said that, as a support body for people who are struggling, it needs to be able to say exactly how the fund works. Each question I have asked is a bit out of the way. I do not expect answers to all this tonight.

Deputy Niall Collins

That is fine. As I said in my reply to Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh, a feature of the student assistance fund is allowing local decision-making. It is about giving colleges local autonomy. They know their students better than we know them. This is the first occasion I have heard of it, since Deputies Conway-Walsh and Crowe have raised it. It was never brought to my attention before. I would be interested in hearing more about it. My view is that there should be local autonomy. I read out some criteria for the fund. Substantial funding has been made available. I refer to the three universities in Limerick as an example. For the academic year of 2021 to 2022, TUS had €738,000 available in its student assistance fund. The University of Limerick had €1,183,000 available. Mary Immaculate College had €450,000 available.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

That is good. I know people will say it is probably not enough, but that is multiple times higher than when I was in the third level system and helping people over the years. I thank the Minister of State. If his Department could communicate on the other matters, it would be welcome. I commend the Minister of State on pushing for a veterinary school in the mid-west. Far too many of our young school leavers are forced to go to universities in Poland, Czechia and Slovakia to undertake veterinary training. There is obviously demand and it would be better if we could meet it domestically.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank the Minister of State for his presentation and for the briefing documents that accompanied it. I will raise five issues, which I will go through as a back-and-forth with the Minister of State rather than asking them all at once. The first relates to page 4 of the briefing. It mentions savings of €48 million, largely due to lower than expected numbers of students utilising the student grant scheme.

That seems like a lot of money to find down the back of a couch. Why does the Department think there was a reduced take-up of that grant scheme?

Deputy Niall Collins

There is no definitive reason for the decrease in the number of student grant applications. We are working to understand the causes behind it. There are some potential explanations for the decrease in applications for SUSI grants and it is likely that the true reason is a mixture of some or all of the hypotheses. It must be stressed that there may be another cause for the decrease in applications. Cost-of-living pressures are affecting students' abilities to undertake education in September. That is especially true of a particular cohort of SUSI applicants. You would have had fewer people applying to SUSI or deferring their college place because of cost-of-living issues. Low unemployment rates and high demand for workers in hospitality is attracting more potential students to work at this time, causing them to defer education. Other reasons being flagged include whether changes in the student experience or learning methods during Covid have led to lower retention rates for students who may be opting to change or drop out.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The Minister of State clearly anticipated the question, as he had a note in front of him. The sum of €48 million is a lot of money. How many students does that translate into? That should be measurable in the system. Are we seeing fall-off and is that in the uptake of first year places or is it where people moving from second to third year have been deciding to defer for a year? Are we keeping track of that as deferrals? Are they simply drop-outs? There is a lot to unpack in the Minister of State's answer there.

Deputy Niall Collins

I also make the point that the savings are being invested back into SUSI. We broadened the eligibility criteria, increased the threshold and have completed the entire SUSI review. Professor Tom Collins is working on that to see the next level of changes should be made to the scheme. That is a decision that will have to be taken in due course. There was also a small increase in the amount of the grant payable.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Is the Department doing a large piece of work to understand that figure? It is a large amount of money but I am less worried about that than the number of students, which it implies have not applied for it. I would be interested in seeing that unpacked in a little more detail. Perhaps it is not something the Department has ready at this time but it is something that we would be interested in looking at.

Deputy Niall Collins

The increase in the income threshold will allow for more people to apply and that will give us more real-time data on the profile of people who are applying. We can get an exact note on the numbers of people who have applied to give the trend and where we see the trend going in the coming years as a result of what was have changed as a result of the SUSI review.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank the Minister of State. I think we would all appreciate that.

There is a €9 million allocation to hire additional tutors for English as a second or additional language for Ukrainians here. That must translate into quite a few tutors throughout the ETBs. How many tutor positions does that translate into? How has recruitment been on that? What qualifications are we looking for among the tutors? Where are we with curriculum design? As it is being delivered through the ETBs, I would expect a kind of standardisation in how it is being applied. Essentially, are we getting enough people to teach them and are they well enough qualified?

Deputy Niall Collins

That is a fair question. We cannot answer it now but we will get the committee a note.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Am I out of time?

Chairman

One more question before we call on Deputy Ó Laoghaire.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I have three more questions so I had better chose the one that I like most.

During statements on science week, the Minister announced that Ireland planned to join CERN. I absolutely agree that we should do it. I was delighted to hear him announce it. It does come at considerable cost and there are different levels of membership which cost different amounts. I do not see it detailed in the Supplementary Estimates so I cannot tell what kind of membership we are going for or how much it will cost. I believe whatever it will cost us, is cheap at the price, or rather it will not be cheap at the price but it will be money well spent. What level of membership are we going for and why is it not in the Supplementary Estimates?

Deputy Niall Collins

I will have to revert to the Deputy on that too. There are two types of membership: associate and full. There are different numbers attaching to each.

Chairman

Would it be as cheap as joining a golf club?

Deputy Niall Collins

You can be a pavilion member or a full member of a golf club. We will come back to the Deputy on that.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I do not have a lot here. Many of the questions have already been asked on maintenance grants and funding. I have one observation and one question, maybe and I will see if there is any follow-on from that.

The Estimates include a lot of one-off reductions, and they are all welcome things, such as the one-off reduction in the undergraduate student contribution, the one-off reduction in the contribution fee, a one-off payment for student maintenance grants, one-off increase of €1,000 for SUSI, a one-off payment of €500 for researchers and the one-off provision for the third level sector to deal with rising energy costs. I am not saying that none of these are not welcome and I know the context. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform is standing behind the Department with a big stick and so on. It will not always be possible to get the long-term funding commitments that the Minister and Minister of State might want. However, I am also conscious that it is reckoned that inflation will run at about 8% next year and the cost-of-living crisis is not going anywhere. It will continue to be a problem. Some if not all of these things will have to be built into long-term spending. I know the Minister of State is not going to give budgetary commitments to me on 30 November and I do not know if he can offer any comment on it. There are very high student contributions and the one-off reduction is welcome but it is a big cost for families. Another thing that stands out is the third level institutions' energy bills. They are very significant and have large estates with buildings and so on. There is no doubt but that we will have to come back to that.

Then, my question is what is the budget for Generation Apprenticeship?

Deputy Niall Collins

On funding, we have published the Funding the Future framework document on funding for further and higher education, which follows on from the Cassells report. It identified a funding deficit of €307 million. We built €40 million into our base as a first step to close that gap. We have lots of competing demands. We spoke about the pension shortfall, which is a reality that has to be lived up to. Pensioners have to be paid their pensions. There are demands arising from the recent pay agreement, Building Momentum, and there is cost arising from that. We have been particularly conscious to try and help student cohorts. As for the future of funding, you could gobble up all the extra and additional resources on one item, such as the gap identified by the Cassells report, but you have to have your colleges and higher education institutions populated by students who are not always concerned about their ability to finance themselves going there so we have had to take measures on a one-off basis.

There will be a reduction of €500 to the student registration charge for next year. Students who avail of the SUSI grant do not have to pay that charge at all. With the broadening of the parameters of the SUSI grant, we envisage more students meeting the criteria to avail of it. I cannot give the committee anything more definitive in respect of recurring payments. The Deputy is right that many of the measures are one-offs to address the current cost-of-living crisis. None of us can predict how long the crisis will last. It has always been the position of the Government that these are to be one-off measures and that if we have to, we will revisit the situation.

The Deputy spoke about the cost of running campuses, big estates and many buildings. The Supplementary Estimate includes €10 million for energy bills. What was the Deputy's other question?

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

It related to Generation Apprenticeship.

Deputy Niall Collins

Our budget for apprenticeships with SOLAS and the Higher Education Authority is in the amount of €200 million.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I did not know that, but that was not to what my question related. Generation Apprenticeship is a brand, if not a programme. It is a collaboration between SOLAS and-----

Deputy Niall Collins

We will come back to the Deputy on that point.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

If there is not already a budget line for something like that, there should be. It is going to be important to have a clear means of communicating and challenging the social attitudes that exist around apprenticeships and trying to address that. It will require a concentrated approach.

Deputy Niall Collins

That is a fair comment.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Things such as Generation Apprenticeship are going to be important.

Deputy Niall Collins

We will get a note for the Deputy on that issue.

Chairman

Would Deputy Conway-Walsh like to ask one additional question of the Minister of State before we conclude the meeting?

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

No. I will leave something for the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, to address in the morning.

Chairman

That is as good a reason as any to remain silent.

Deputy Niall Collins

Deputies must leave something in the tank.

Chairman

I thank the Minister of State and his officials for coming before the committee. That concludes our consideration of the Revised Estimates for Votes 26 and 45. In accordance with Standing Order 90, a message to that effect will be sent to the Clerk of the Dáil.