Amendments Nos. 47 and 48 are related and may be discussed together.
SECTION 21.
I move amendment No. 47:
In page 11, subsection (2), line 49, to delete "as soon as may be after the end of each accounting period" and substitute "annually".
This section deals with the keeping of accounts and audits of An Bord Bia. I propose to amend subsection (2), to read:
Accounts kept in pursuance of this section shall be submitted annually by the Board to the Comptroller and Auditor General for audit and, immediately after the audit, not more than 6 months after the end of the financial year to which the accounts relate a copy of the accounts, statement and balance sheet and of such other (if any) of the accounts kept pursuant to this section as the Minister, after consultation with the Minister for Finance [will be sent to the Comptroller and Auditor General, etc.]
Instead of "as soon as may be after the end of each accounting period", I have asked the Minister to accept that this procedure be invoked "annually" and that no later than six months after the end of the accounting year a copy of the accounts, statement and balance sheet, etc., having been to the Comptroller and Auditor General's Office shall be presented to the Minister.
The Minister will probably respond by saying this is not a commercial semi-State body and that my requirement is more suited to such a body. However, this is an unusual body. Although it is not a commercial semi-State body, it will handle large amounts of money because of the levy collection facility and the facility to levy service charges of one type or another on any sector which receives aid from this board. The European and Exchequer moneys will match levy funding in the marketing operations of the board.
The board will have a substantial financial turnover in the year. I am not saying it will make a profit because I expect that any moneys gathered will be spent on marketing for the different sectoral interests. However, we are talking about a multimillion pound turnover in the finances of the board. At present, CBF collect £6 million to £7 million in levies in the meat and livestock sector only. I presume that will be matched pound for pound by European and Exchequer moneys. The board will handle between £20 million and £25 million annually. We need a strict, efficient and transparent system of presenting accounts annually.
At present, there are too many semi-State bodies which are two and three years late presenting their accounts. That is not an acceptable procedure and I am sure the Committee of Public Accounts would have something to say about this. It is within the Minister's remit to insist that a commercial accountant or auditor should have these accounts, statements and balance sheets ready to present to the Comptroller and Auditor General so that they can be put through the system in six months. Given the amount of money it will handle — look at the beef tribunal, let us call a spade a spade — and its access to the multimillion of pounds aid available to the food industry, this board must be transparent and strictly accountable on an annual basis so that it starts on the right foot.
I do not like the words " as soon as may be after the end of each accounting period". That could be five years later. "As soon as may be" could be as soon as the Comptroller and Auditor General gets round to it, which would be as soon as the accountant to the board submits them to him or as soon as the Minister looks at them before they are sent to the Comptroller and Auditor General. It is not tight enough and I ask the Minister to accept my amendments.
I sympathise with the last speaker who referred to the purpose of accounts and auditors. We all receive reports in the post. I am always struck by how late some of these reports and audits are — some are a couple of years behind. The purpose of examining annual accounts is to ensure moneys have been handled properly and that costs have kept in line with those agreed for the running of the operation, in this case An Bord Bia and its subsidiaries.
If a report arrives late, it compounds a possible problem in keeping costs in line and so on. I am inclined to agree to a specific deadline within which reports should be made available. Perhaps the Minister might look at this. There may be a reason a deadline cannot be met but it is better that reports and audited accounts be provided in a specified period, then everyone involved in the organisation knows his responsibilities in this aspect of the business and will make appropriate plans to ensure adherence to deadlines.
I too agree delays have occurred in the production of annual reports. Often issues have passed by the time the report is published. I would have thought that section 22 (2) would deal with many of the arguments put forward. It states that the Minister is entitled to any information from the board on the performance of its functions.
We are dealing with section 21, not section 22.
The Minister and his Department will monitor the activities of An Bord Bia and will know of any irregularities because it is a fundamental part of the Department's activities.
The Minister determines the accounting period and it is the intention that it should be no longer than one year. Section 22 refers to an annual report. I accept the points made by the three Deputies about getting accounts into the public arena by making them quickly available to both Houses of the Oireachtas.
We had informal discussions on the point Deputy Doyle made about the board employing its own auditor. That facility is available to boards who generate their income from activity in the commercial sector. Boards which do not generate income in the commercial sector refer their accounts to the Comptroller and Auditor General. Another factor relates to cost. If accounts are referred to the Comptroller and Auditor General, it does not involve costs for the board, but if an outside auditor is brought in, it involves cost.
I accept that the process should be tightened up. I will look at this again before Report Stage. I accept the points made by the Deputies and I am anxious to comply with their wishes if possible.
We should provide for the concept of annual accounting rather than "as soon as may be" or "to be determined by the Minister". Although the Minister knows what he wants, none of us will be here forever and this legislation will be on the Statute Book. There is nothing to stop a Minister determining that once in every five years would be sufficient for this board to be answerable, a board which will handle millions of pounds.
It is not only an administrative board; it is as close to a commercial semi-State body as one will get without that definition sitting comfortably on it. It sits between the two types of semi-State body. It breaks new ground in terms of the definition of a semi-State body. It is in the commercial sector levying on commercial transactions. I accept what the Minister has said. I will be satisfied if the Minister will consider the substance of my amendments and the concerns expressed by other Deputies between now and Report Stage.
I will be happy to do that.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 48 not moved.
Question, "That section 21 stand part of the Bill" put.
The Select Committee divided: Tá, 18; Nil, 2.
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Tá |
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Broughan, Tommy. |
Coughlan, Mary. |
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Byrne, Hugh. |
Doherty, Seán. |
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Costello, Joe. |
Ellis, John. |
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Fitzgerald, Brain. |
Killeen, Tony. |
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Flood, Chris. |
McDaid, Jim. |
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Foley, Denis. |
O'Shea, Brian. |
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Haughey, Sean. |
O'Sullivan, Toddy. |
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Hughes, Séamus. |
Ryan, Seán |
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Kemmy, Jim. |
Smith, Brendan. |
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Níl. |
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Molloy, Robert. |
O'Malley, Des. |
Question declared carried.
The Committee of Public Accounts had to stop its business to accommodate this meeting. We can accommodate every committee and there is no necessity for two committees to meet at the same time. I am saying this for future reference. The Committee of Public Accounts meets every Thursday at 11 a.m.
That matter will have to be resolved during the recess.
I request a bell for these committees as the lack of communication is not fair to Members who are not in the room when a vote is called.
Some means of communication will have to be devised. It can be discussed.
On behalf of my party I support some type of identifiable call up system. The reason we are sitting this morning is that Fíanna Fáil Deputies requested we adjourn last night. I was quite happy to go on until we had finished the Bill, as was the Minister.
At the start of business yesterday we agreed we would go on in tandem with the Dáil which was meeting until late. When the Dáil adjourned Members felt that we had done enough, having met for several hours longer than usual. In fairness to Members, some of whom had to travel to the country, we felt that when the Dáil business ended it was appropriate that the business of this committee should end.
We agreed to sit until midnight, but that was yesterday.