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Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs díospóireacht -
Friday, 6 May 1994

SECTION 105.

I move amendment No. 172:

In page 119, before section 105, but in Part V, to insert the following new section:

"105.—An allowance for income tax shall be granted annually for all payments of residential property tax so that a full credit will be given for any such payments in the year of assessment.".

This morning's session will be taken up with the dreaded issue of the residential property tax which, of all the measures in the budget, has provoked a vigorous reaction among certain people who feel they are being brought into the tax net for the first time by the budgetary changes. They feel it is an unfair imposition on people who have already discharged substantial income tax liabilities. They see it as a surtax on their incomes because it attacks their homes, from which they can get no liquidity and no income. One of the ironies of residential property tax is that the most wealthy landlord in the country, with huge rental income from tenancies, is not touched in any way by this tax, but ordinary home owners, in cities and particularly in Dublin, and in some cases with modest homes, will be affected.

The purpose of my amendment is to give the Minister an "out" on this measure. I realise the political difficulties he is in for the sake of £3 million and a total revenue of £15 million. If last year's banana skin in the budget was the 1 per cent levy, the minor change in the residential property tax, as the Minister tried to sell it, is this year's banana skin. The difficulties were further compounded by the Taoiseach's comments in Killarney when he jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire in trying to ameliorate the row over the residential property tax in Dublin in the context of the forthcoming European elections. He said there would be a full blooded review of the service charges for local government and the residential property tax with a new super-home tax, which sounded either like an Irish poll tax or rates on domestic property coming in through the back door.

The only way the public will even consider any form of taxation on their home is if full credit is given for all such payments against income tax. That would genuinely mean that if moneys were paid into a local authority it would not be on the basis of an additional tax, it would be simply diverting moneys from the Exchequer to local government. I am not advocating this; I am simply saying that is the best face one could put on residential property tax.

There is no doubt that the concept of home ownership — and this will underline the entire debate today — has been fostered by successive Governments over many decades. The principle of people providing their own homes and paying for them in a self-reliant way has been pursued and advocated to such an extent and so successfully that we have 80 per cent home ownership, one of the highest in the western world. Even people with modest homes are proud of the fact that they own their homes. One of the most stabilising factors in Irish life is that we have had such a high level of ownership.

With the changes in mortgage relief, the widening of the residential property tax net and the fear of a re-introduction of rates, people are now becoming very concerned that the traditional policy of home ownership is being reversed. We have all received correspondence from the new home owners' association, the Institute of Professional Auctioneers and Valuers, ACRA and residents' associations stating that this tax is highly objectionable. What is it all for? A measly £3 million when total Exchequer receipts are £10.37 billion. This is political folly of the worst kind. I receive correspondence daily from people telling me they came to Dublin at a young age, worked hard and now find their home is valuable, not because they have a sauna, swimming pool, tennis court, golf course, jacuzzi or a conservatory, but because of the area they live in. Conversely, people in rural areas with luxury homes find they are marginally in the tax net, if at all.

Will the Deputy table amendments?

The Deputy is welcome to the Committee. His absence was noted over the last few days.

Do not flatter him; his absence was not noted.

We dealt with a myriad of taxes and it is fair to say that the Minister should consider an Opposition amendment which involved £3 million to be within the range of what would be broadly acceptable. We are not talking about tax reform, rather these budgetary changes represent a halfpenny on a pint of beer. This measure is irrelevant to the debate on tax reform. The advice the Minister received from academic experts in ivory towers, be they in universities or other valued institutions, was bad political advice. Such people would also have favoured the poll tax in Britain.

People see this as an attack on home ownership and on their thrift in putting aside their life savings to make a nice home. In the context of grouping family income together, it is an attack on the family. One might argue that in 1983 my party brought this measure forward. The Minister likes to put on record that this measure was introduced by Deputy Dukes.

Yes. Deputy Dukes made a significant contribution on the Second Stage debate. He was Minister for Finance in 1983 and he now acknowledges that residential property tax is stupid and unjustifiable. He has no hesitation or reservation in saying that it should be abolished. I do not know if he breached Cabinet confidentiality — we read of the divisions in this Cabinet on a daily basis — when he stated that the principal authors were the late Deputy Cluskey and the present Tánaiste.

In their agenda for the 1990s, the Labour Party stated they wanted to reduce the threshold for houses to £50,000, the income threshold to £20,000 and raise the rate of residential property tax to 3 per cent per annum. People fear the Labour Party will go further with this tax and with the help of the Taoiseach, judging from his comments in Killarney, convert it into rates by the back door. On Second and Committee Stages debates in 1992 the Minister gave a solemn undertaking that the marginal changes made in the thresholds on incomes and house values would be the last venture into that area. Unfortunately the Minister succumbed, perhaps under pressure from the Labour Party, and changed the house value threshold to £75,000 and the household income to £25,000. That affects most people residing in suburban Dublin.

One does not need to have a high income as what constitutes income for this purpose apart from salary, is social welfare payments, acknowledged tax free income such as Post Office certificates and income from Government gilts. My amendment would allow for a full credit but I would prefer if the tax were repealed.

If the Minister had introduced a tiered structure of property tax which could have been written off against income tax there might have been a different response from the people. If it had been collected and used by local government it might also have evoked a different response. As it stands, it is a silly extension of the tax.

As a candidate in the forthcoming elections I was asked to sign documents to abolish the tax. I did not receive any complaints about the tax before the Minister brought in this ill-conceived and silly extension of it. I have no intention of signing any such document but I am vehemently opposed to its extension because it is a tax on home owners and on those who already pay taxes. A relatively small proportion of people are paying taxes which provide our social services and they are being asked to shoulder this extra burden. I make no apology for opposing the tax in that form.

We have now established paternity of the original sin in this case — Deputy Dukes has confessed. He ought to be forgiven for this. In my experience, this is the first time the Deputy has ever confessed to stupidity on anything——

He has had a late dose of cop on.

I look forward in particular to hearing Deputy McDowell's points on this subject; his party has a candidate in the European elections, whose name escapes me at present. Deputy McDowell was the author of the property tax idea in Irish politics during the mid-1980s when we had a number of what I would regard as quite edifying head to head debates on the issue. In keeping with his impeccable logical approach to politics, a feature on which I commended him on Tuesday last, Deputy McDowell argued at that time for a residential property tax. Even though he has changed his position on this issue I have remained consistent in my view.

People who are in hock to building societies and financial institutions, paying mortgages and paying for their children's education should not be penalised in this fashion in the context of an income tax system which is still manifestly unfair.

The total yield from this tax will be £3 million. The Minister told us that one penny on a pint brings in £6 million. This tax will, therefore, be equivalent to a half penny on the pint. The argument that this tax on property will make a contribution towards broadening the tax base is nonsense and a lie when one considers that other candidates in the European elections profess to be vehemently opposed to a home tax but do not refer to people who may own many houses which they let and who are not subject to any such application of the residential property tax. This tax is a nonsense, it is unfair, inequitable and punitive of people who have bought their own homes and of those who are already bearing the burden of taxes in our economy. It is a silly tax which will not shift the burden from income to property and will not tackle the problem of the funding of local government.

There is a serious problem in regard to the funding of local government. Since 1977 local government has been consistently run down, and the resulting dereliction is evident to everyone. The yield from the property tax will not be used to fund local government; rather, it will go into the maw of the Exchequer. There may be some merit in Deputy Yates's amendment. If there was a visible and commensurate reduction in income tax against which the residential property tax could be written off and the yield from the tax were to be diverted to local government so that people could see the benefits in their own environment, this tax might have met with a more favourable reaction in the community.

The Taoiseach's proposal to replace the residential property tax with some form of unspecified home tax through a merging of water charges, local charges and the residential property tax is the greatest three card trick anyone in politics has ever attempted to perpetrate. The Taoiseach is proposing to shift the residential property tax onto the shoulders of homeowners, regardless of the value of a house, throughout the country as distinct from homeowners in Dublin. The residential property tax is predominantly a Dublin tax; it is an anti-Dublin tax. The Taoiseach now wants to apply this tax to homeowners in the rest of the country. He does not want to call it rates and it will not be a poll tax. I do not know what the Taoiseach proposes to call it. Thank God for the Minister for the Environment, Deputy Michael Smith, who has told the Taoiseach that regardless of what the tax is to be known as, he will not stand for it. The Minister was right to do this because any man who forced the Dublin local authorities to introduce water charges this year should not be seen to introduce a second tax in the same year. He could get a very bad name for doing so. I can understand why Minister Smith would continue to oppose this tax, having forced the local authorities in Dublin——

Rightly so; they had got away with murder.

To be perfectly truthful, I do not have any complaint——

The Deputy was going well but he is on a wrong wicket now; he is hitting a low ball and could score an own goal.

Deputy Rabbitte, without interruption.

We are now in a period of ground hurling. I do not make any apology to Deputy Connolly or anyone representing the Golden Vale or the large farming belt for the fact that people in Dublin did not have to pay water charges——

Is the Deputy trying to include Connemara in the Golden Vale?

Dubliners can truthfully say that they are paying more than their fair share of taxes.

As a proportion of income, the people of Connemara pay——

Nobody in Connemara pays tax, and Deputy Ó Cuív knows that.

(Interruptions.)

I put down a question to the Minister for Finance asking the amount of tax paid by people in Dublin and the neighbouring counties of Meath and Kildare. The Minister replied that the figures were not kept in that format. There is a damn good reason why, unlike the rest of the country, one cannot assess the tax yield for the Dublin area, and the Minister for Finance, Deputy Ahern, knows the reason as well as I do. I do not make any apologies to Deputy Connolly and his constituents. The residential property tax is an anti-Dublin tax and the Minister ought to go a step further in the climb down he has already been forced to make.

Deputy Rabbitte's contribution contained a number of inaccuracies. His attempt to put the Bog of Allen, which is in Deputy Connolly's constituency, into the Golden Vale surprises me. I suppose with the new turf fired power station one could put it in the Golden Vale.

Deputy Rabbitte is a great amateur historian on this issue, but unfortunately he got his facts wrong. At its first conference on 24-25 May 1986 the policy of the Progressive Democrats was established as follows: existing taxes such as the land tax and the residential property tax would be ended and no taxation of real property would be permitted unless, first, the amount of such tax was used to fund a reformed local government and, second, that there was a corresponding reduction in personal taxation at national level.

The key word is "unless".

That is correct. That is our position and we have not deviated from it for even one second. I do not have to make confessions of error: we have always been clear on this issue, and that remains our position. When I was a Deputy in 1988 I published a policy document on taxation in which I called for a reversal of the shift of the burden of local authority expenditure onto employment taxes, as had been taking place from 1977 onwards, and suggested the introduction of a charge which would be payable by people to their local authority based on some criteria, including the value of their homes — a banded charge. Such charge is payable by people in Dún Laoghaire. I make no apology for submitting that the policies we put forward then are still correct.

The vast majority of people think it was a ridiculous mistake to take the cost of local government from the population of each local authority area and simply impose that burden on to employment taxes, which was the effect of what was done between 1977 and 1987. That is my position and I do not budge from it. Just as they are willing to pay for their cable television, I believe the vast majority of people in Dublin would be willing to pay for their water and their refuse collection, if they consider them to be fairly apportioned among the population in each local authority area. That is my firm belief. Every time I have met people who have discussed the matter with me, I am convinced that the vast majority of people are of that view. It is political cowardice of the worst kind, at every level in our political system, that has brought us to the point at which we think there is a massive resistance to facing this issue and reinstating a proper financial basis for local government.

It is my belief that every single party in this House consents to the basic proposition that local government must be refinanced and the issue must be faced up to. Every party accepts that proposition. But apparently nobody in the House is willing to take up the offer I repeated twice recently to the Minister for Finance: that an all-party committee should discuss the issue and come up with a report for the financing of local government. I have made that suggestion twice. It is a genuine offer, given with the authority of my party, and we will participate. It is not a new offer, because when we were in Government with Fianna Fáil, we offered to establish such a committee in which the entire House could participate. Fine Gael, Labour and, for that matter, The Workers Party, as they were then, refused for political advantage to have anything to do with it and walked away from the issue. Anybody who cries crocodile tears about the absence of a proper basis of finance for local government but who did not sign on for that proposition when it was put forward in the House is engaging in a measure of hypocrisy on the issue.

Having stated my view that the residential property tax is unfair and should be repealed — the subject matter of the next amendment — it is important to differentiate my view from that of Deputy Yates. He wants to make all residential property tax allowable against income tax. I consider residential property tax is inherently unfair. I propose to give the reasons in fairly short order. It is unfair for this reason: it is a self-assessment system, which is highly subjective and depends fundamentally on the honesty of the taxpayer. Worse still, the Minister for Finance acknowledged as much when, to my surprise, he stated in public on one occasion that people would under-declare anyway and that it was not half as bad as was being maintained. In other jurisdictions there would be a call for the Minister's head immediately, but we are a tolerant group here; one can get away with a bit of truthfulness of that kind even if it could be seen as inciting people to under-declare their residential property tax liability.

I do not think Deputy Rabbitte would disagree with me. The Deputy knows that.

There is massive room for disagreement on these issues. Therefore, we must now examine what the tax actually does. There was some discussion here a few moments ago about the origin of this tax, who was its father and its mother. This tax is the Labour Party's tax. Let there be no doubt about that. It is the Labour Party's tax; they have always pressed for its introduction.

Deputy Yates spoke about the social agenda for the nineties. The document which the present Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dick Spring, presented to his party was, if you like, the conception which gave birth to that document which contained Deputy Spring's personal proposals for a house property tax. On page 59 of that document, which I treasure dearly, there is a proposal for the introduction of a house property tax calculated on the market value of every house, leaving aside the first £25,000 of value. Members will be glad to know that in those circumstances a house worth £75,000 would have been liable to a residential property tax of approximately £1,200 and it rose to 3 per cent in respect of houses worth in excess of £120,000. That is Deputy Dick Spring's agenda. It is that agenda which got Fine Gael into trouble with this tax between 1982 and 1987. It is the same agenda that now has Fianna Fáil in trouble in this Coalition Government. This is what partnership with the Labour Party on this issue does.

The problem with this tax is that it has nothing to do with funding local government. As Deputy Spring at the time said, the issue of whether local authorities should either collect or utilise the revenue from this property tax will be treated later as a separate policy matter. Therefore, it is not a local government tax. It is an ideological tax of a left wing party which wanted to introduce a wealth tax on people's homes. It is indistinguishable from a wealth tax except that it is confined to people's homes.

From another point of view it is equally unfair. As has been pointed out, it is anti-Dublin, and anti-family. This ought to be thought about. Two families, one of whom consists of four adults, living together in a house in Dublin worth £150,000, all of whom earn below the average industrial wage, are liable to a substantial residential property tax bill. The same adults living in two houses worth £75,000 — though they may have the same asset worth, the same capital value in assets — will pay nothing if they split into two houses.

On the last occasion we learned from the Minister's officials, who were very frank in their briefing of this committee, that there is a state of affairs whereby somebody who jointly owns a family home and jointly owns, or owns in his own name another home somewhere else in the country — perhaps a holiday home — will have all his property aggregated; whereas if the wife, or the husband as the case may be, who is not liable to residential property tax on the main home owns the holiday home in his or her separate name, there is no liability to residential property tax. This means that a couple who live in Dublin who own a house, say, in west Cork are not liable to have the properties aggregated for residential property tax purposes if the house in west Cork is in the wife's name, even if the house in Dublin is in joint names. That is the most barbarous, stupid and inane system of tax of which I have ever heard. Effectively, it means that one person must pay £1,200 a year more than another person, based on an entirely haphazard, chance organisation of their family's affairs. It also carries the very anti-family aspect of requiring the aggregation of family incomes so that children living at home, when they cease to be dependent, can bring their parents into the residential property tax net without any regard to social equity or fairness.

As Deputy Rabbitte pointed out, there are vast chunks of my constituency — the one in which we are all sitting today — in which there is rented accommodation and vast amounts of money being made from that rented accommodation — large Georgian houses in Rathmines, the inner city and the like set in flats. Not a halfpenny goes to the local authority from those premises; not a halfpenny goes to central Government from those premises; and very little income tax goes to Government from many of those premises. Yet a similar house when occupied by families of relatively modest means, with two taxpayers earning £20,000 each — say, two teachers living together — carries a crippling liability merely because it is located in my constituency as opposed to an identical house in Deputy Rabbitte's constituency. Those people are hammered because of where they live. I believe that is unfair and indefensible.

There are so many anomalies in this residential property tax system that nobody would invent it now were it not already in existence. Unfortunately, the Labour Party slipped it in years ago. As Deputy Rabbitte pointed out, there had been little worry about it because the vast majority of people simply did not pay it. Now that it is really on the agenda, that the Labour Party's real purpose is to extend it and bring more and more people into the net, people are beginning to see what it is all about.

Any system of taxation should apply in general terms to the great majority of people and it is wrong to have a system of taxation that applies to a small minority. Therefore, I am opposed to the wealth tax in its broad shape or when it applies to residential property. I make no apology for saying I believe this House has failed to solve the question of how to finance local government. In the last analysis there will have to be a banded charge payable by virtually everybody to local government. I would support that vigorously if, and on condition, it was used to alleviate tax on employment.

Likewise, in the context of taxation of property, the commercial rate system is nonsensical and requires to be reviewed. I tabled parliamentary questions to the Minister for the Environment, Deputy Smith, of whom we heard in such glowing terms from Deputy Rabbitte. I asked him about the derelict sites levy which was imposed by a Finance Act introduced in the period 1987-89, I asked him the yield from the 3 per cent levy to local authorities, how many acres in each local authority had been registered as required and the effect of that measure. The answer I got was that his Department would not have that kind of information. I have never heard of one single person paying that 3 per cent tax on derelict land. I have never heard of a single person being levied with that tax. I have never heard of a bill being sent out for it. I would imagine that somebody around this table would have received a complaining letter about it if it had been done.

Deputy Yates received a letter.

I have never heard of a single person paying that tax. The reason is that it is a shambles and was put in for optics only. When the Minister for the Environment cannot tell me whether any local authority has received a penny in the last five years from that tax, then the answer must be that it is an unworkable tax.

Let us look at the way in which we treat property in Ireland. Because the Labour Party demands it, we treat two teachers married to each other, with a few children, occupying a modest house in Ranelagh, on an income of between £40,000 and £50,000, as belonging to some super class for the purposes of the residential property tax. If they owned a development site of three acres down the road in Charlemont Street, with nothing on it except weeds, they would not be liable to a halfpenny. If they lived in a house elsewhere in Rathmines, in which there were ten bedsitters, yielding a massive amount of income, they would not be liable to a halfpenny in respect of the local authority.

I believe the residential property tax is completely unfair. I have always regarded it as unfair and I think it will be got rid of. The Taoiseach was not as wrong as most people think he is being shrewd. He was dangling in front of the electorate of Dublin the notion that there was a prospect of change in this area, even though the Minister for the Environment, Deputy Smith, and the Labour Party are adamant that there will be no change. They like the system as it is. We will bring that issue to the people and get them to make a decision on it and ask whether they want to keep residential property tax as it is, because that is what the Minister for the Environment is arguing for. It is a millstone round the Government's neck. I am not saying that on the basis that I will enjoy the Government's political discomfort. I am offering yet again on this occasion——

A Deputy

If there are protests——

This is the kind of childish comment we get. Fine Gael do not know where they stand on this issue. A former Member of this House in 1981, Dr. Garret FitzGerald, said that one of his priorities when he became Taoiseach would be to refinance local government, but he did nothing about it. This party is willing to participate in a genuine cross party effort to refinance local government and to take that burden off work. We again extend that offer and I will be interested to know if any takers are available on this occasion.

I wish to make a few short comments. I thank Deputy Yates for his heartfelt view of the residential property tax. I was surprised that he disowned Deputy Dukes. That was unfair to a man who has done trojan work on behalf of the Fine Gael Party. He is now being driven into the wilderness and kicked into the mud in his absence.

He was trying to do his best for the party.

Deputy McDowell gave us the real genesis of the residential property tax, which was worth an airing. I note that the views expressed by Fine Gael are political. We should look at the taxation system which prevailed in the eighties when Fine Gael introduced the residential property tax. For a couple earning £21,000 in 1985-87 the effective rate of income tax was 31 per cent, whereas today the rate for a similar couple is approximately 19.5 per cent — a reduction of 11 per cent since we came into office in 1987. This is an issue that must be highlighted. We are hearing continuously about the need for a reduction in taxes, when in fact there has been a tremendous reduction in taxes since 1987. I am surprised that Deputy McDowell, in all his honesty, has not acknowledged this over the year.

Leave out who is responsible for it.

In order to muddy the waters further it has been suggested that people who have rented properties are not liable to tax. I would point out that they are liable to capital gains tax if they sell their houses. They are liable to income tax if they make a profit. If they are a company they are liable to corporation tax. People should speak on the particular issue on its own merits without muddying the waters. It is not politically right for Deputy Yates and others to raise these muddying issues.

In Deputy Rabbitte's posters around Dublin he left out "Democratic Left" but retained the colours of the Progressive Democrats, so much so that I thought they were about to merge. However, following the discussions this morning, that is out.

They are very good posters.

The Taoiseach did not propose that all houses in Ireland would be liable to the residential property tax, and Deputy Rabbitte knows that full well. It should go out from here — and the Taoiseach has already made it clear — that this is not a proposal. He has wisely put ideas before the people and——

There is a breakthrough here in that this is the first time I have heard anybody attempt to explain what the Taoiseach had in mind. I think we should give Deputy Ahern a close hearing.

With all due respects, Deputy Ahern would do much better if he was allowed to continue without interruption.

You have a point, Chairman.

I have no wish to become involved in the European election campaign in Dublin as the debate so far has been about that. Most of the contributions from Deputy Yates, Deputy Rabbitte and Deputy McDowell have been about political point scoring in the context of the European elections and the Labour Party has been accused as the main party responsible for the introduction of the residential property tax. I cannot accept the extraordinary attempt by Deputy Yates to take Fine Gael out of the equation. The bottom line is that a Fine Gael Minister introduced the tax in the first instance. Only this year the Fine Gael Party are coming around to abolishing the tax in its entirety. It is clear they are doing that only to gain electoral advantage over the other political parties. Fine Gael were in Government with the Labour Party on that occasion. I am no apologist for the Labour Party, but it is not good enough to say, as Deputy Michael McDowell has said, that it is the Labour Party. The public will not take that, it lacks credibility.

Is the Deputy saying he is opposed to this tax?

It was a Fine Gael Minister who introduced it.

Is this what the Deputy told The Cork Examiner when he expressed deep concern about this tax?

Will Deputy Yates allow Deputy Martin to proceed without interruption?

Deputy Yates's entire contribution over the week shows a complete absence of consistency. He wants further reductions in income tax, a widening of the tax bands and a reduction in the marginal rates, a reduction in VAT in certain areas, a reduction or even the abolition of the residential property tax, a reduction in excise duties. He mentioned that the halfpenny on the pint will give the same yield as the residential property tax, but yesterday he was objecting to the increases on alcohol. He is looking also for reductions in corporation tax. However, he made no proposals as to how to fund the various tax reductions. His policy can best be summed up as a means of gaining electoral advantage from taking the popular line on individual issues. That is the sum total of the contribution made by the Deputy and his party to the debate on the Finance Bill.

There has been a great deal of hypocrisy. I am no lover of the RPT but the Minister responded to the representations from Deputies on all sides of the House by removing a considerable number of anomalies. He made significant concessions that will have beneficial effects. That should be acknowledged. I support Deputy McDowell's proposal for the creation of an all party committee to deal with tax reform and local government funding — it is something I have favoured for a long time — but it is an admission on his part that the Progressive Democrats cannot do it, will not do it and do not have the bottle to do it.

We will do it.

That party does not have the bottle to do it. They did not do it when in Government. The Deputy quoted party policy but he used the wonderful word "unless"— the great copout. What has been wrong with the debate during the past ten years is that every party has cop-out clauses. Every party says it is in favour of broadening the tax base and of a proper system of local government funding, like hell. Whichever Government attempts to bring that in the Progressive Democrats, just like every other Opposition party, will shout hysterically from the Opposition Benches——

We will not.

——as they did on this tax. His then party Leader did so on the residential property tax.

He was against it.

The Deputy has just said in his party document that he favours a taxation package for local government that would involve some charge on the value of a house.

A banded charge.

The Deputy favours some form of property taxation at some stage, yet he reacts in an almost hysterical manner to the residential property tax.

Because it is extremely unfair.

He says it will yield only £3 million. Why the hysteria? I think it illustrates the lack of consensus on the issue of broadening the taxation base and the approach the electorate takes to taxation. That is why I favour an all party committee on taxation. I take the Deputy's point that when it was proposed by a previous administration to have such a committee, the then Opposition deliberately did not take up the offer because it did not want to become a party to a reform of the taxation system which would impact negatively on people.

With all due respect, is it not time that somebody asked when we started sharing power in Dáil Éireann. We have a Government with an unprecedented majority of 30 Members. How is it that we are handed participation in Government on unpalatable issues but there is no question of involving the Opposition in agreeable matters?

We do not have programme managers.

Deputy Rabbitte made very strenuous attempts on the formation of this Government to become a partner in some shape of Government, whether with Labour or the Progressive Democrats.

Not in some shape of Government but a specific Government.

The Deputy negotiated with the Labour Party to become a member of Government. He would have welcomed it with open arms. He would have loved a Mercedes car for which he would have made appropriate compromises. The Deputy favours a wealth tax.

On the amendment please, Deputy.

The Deputy favours a wealth tax as an alternative to residential property tax. The Democratic Left Party favours a proper system of local government funding. They will argue for a proper system of local government funding at every local authority meeting, but they will never specify what they mean. This is more of the nonsense we have to put up with. The Democratic Left Party, together with other parties have called for the reform of Dáil Éireann and for greater participation by backbenchers. It is in that spirit one should look at the proposals for an all party committee on taxation.

It would be a very foolish Government that would go down the road of introducing a radical tax reform package at this stage to be slaughtered at the subsequent election campaign.

Is Deputy Martin suggesting that it would be suicide for his party to do this but that the Opposition parties should join in committing collective hara-kiri? I never heard anything so absurd in all my life.

It is honest and Deputy Rabbitte should be equally honest. If he had not one eye on the European election he might have made a different contribution this morning. We wish him well in his campaign.

Deputy Michael McDowell suggested that people would support additional taxation. People have had enough of taxes. Irrespective of what new tax is introduced, be it for local government funding or other purposes, there will be significant opposition to it, similar to the opposition to the poll tax in England. This is not a poll tax. Service charges have been an issue for the past ten years. However, they have been accepted in a great many local authority areas with over 90 per cent paying them. I think we should proceed with great caution. I am not optimistic about the capacity of Dáil Éireann to deliver more funding to local government than we have already, but perhaps an all party committee could come up with other options, such as generating revenue for local government from petrol or motor taxation. If we rid ourselves of the electioneering we could deal in a more realistic manner with the proposals before us.

I congratulate the Opposition on the publicity they generated for their campaign against the residential property tax. During a time of good Government and a radically innovative budget it must be difficult to get one's teeth into an issue.

We will wait for that.

The Opposition did very well to find something to run with. In fact, I am sure the fuss surprised them, but they have made a meal out of it. It is like asking a horse to go around a second time, having already reached the winning post; one might flog it to death or it may make an unspectacular fall and look stupid. I suggest it is time they drop the matter and be grateful for what they have got out of it. The Opposition succeeded in putting the frighteners on people, and not only on those who likely will have to pay. People who will never be within a roar of having to pay are concerned about residential property tax. It was extraordinary the way the campaign took off. I was surprised to hear Labour Party colleagues who represent working class areas such as Darndale, Ballymun and the inner city expressing very strong views against this tax. Things are going head over heels when that happens.

I will not sketch the history of this tax; we all know who introduced it. Deputy McDowell mentioned that in the late eighties his party decided that it would not support this tax until there was a corresponding reduction in income tax. During the past six to seven years rates have been reduced — an amendment was tabled on this matter on Wednesday — with the result that those who will pay this tax are doing much better. There are now only two rates. It is debatable whether a single person with an income of £12,000 to £14,000 should pay tax at the same rate as someone with an income of £100,000 or £200,000. If I had my way, there would be three rates.

When this tax was introduced — I accept that people will always try to find a way around it given that it is self-assessed — the leader of Fine Gael at the time obtained publicity when he converted his house into two units. If people decide to do this, will they have to formally seek planning permission? Is this a loophole which can be exploited?

In general those who have money have to pay. It has been mentioned that only £3 million will be raised by way of this tax and that the same amount would be raised if the price of a pint was increased by a halfpenny. What is the reason the pint is always used as an example and identified with the working class? I am surprised that it has been used as an example on all sides. While I accept that many of those who will pay this tax are PAYE taxpayers and are paying their fair share they also include the self-employed and business people who have managed to accumulate money and acquire large houses. I often wonder if it has been declared.

I was amused by some of the sad stories related in the House and on radio in February about people who are living in £300,000 houses and are just getting by. I wondered how they managed to raise the money in the first place. The response is always the same: the people concerned bought a small house when they were young, and have worked hard and it is not their fault that the house is now worth £300,000. It is extraordinary but if one was to suggest that local authority houses should be built or a tip-head provided nearby these people would scream. At a recent meeting of the city council when it was proposed the local authority should build a block of 40 flats for senior citizens one councillor expressed concern and said that local residents were very upset that the value of their houses would be reduced.

It could boost the halting sites programme in Dublin.

I will not name the councillor concerned — he was not a member of my party. He said that local residents were upset that the value of their properties would be reduced if this block of flats was constructed.

The first £75,000 will not be taken into account. In the case of motor tax the bigger the car the more one pays, which is reasonable. Deputy McDowell argued that the tax was unfair as it introduced the concept of self-assessment. It was as if he was suggesting that it would be dangerous to allow PAYE taxpayers to get a whiff of this, whereas it was okay for the self-employed and business people as they could be trusted to make declarations honestly. He argued that we should not extend the system to include PAYE taxpayers, even the upper middle class, as somehow or other they might go bananas and not make a full declaration.

That is ridiculous.

That is the point the Deputy made.

It is ridiculous to suggest that if I do not know the value of my house and give myself the benefit of the doubt and a next door neighbour does not——

Would the Deputy please allow Deputy Ahern to proceed without interruption?

If one lives in a detached house outside the city it might be a different ball game but if one lives in suburbia prices are more or less the same. I have discovered that if one spends £20,000 on an extension one may obtain £2,000 to £3,000 more than a neighbour whose house is in poor condition.

During the past two days we have debated major items. It is beyond me that this tax, given that only £3 million will be raised, has been the subject of much discussion. For example, over £100 million was raised by way of the income levy last year. The Deputy referred to the Derelict Sites Act. Money is being raised under that Act——

The sum involved in not huge.

How much did the corporation raise last year?

I think the figure is £45,000. It has had the effect of encouraging many developers to clean up their sites and, in some cases to develop them. Previously, they gave the fingers to the corporation.

There is a beautiful site at Charlemont Bridge; weed killer has been used everywhere.

I am sure the tax has been levied on that site even though it may not have been paid. I understand that if a site is sold the tax will be paid at that stage. In many cases the developer who previously could not be found is tidying up the site. I accept that every site in Dublin is not being developed but this is a very good tax.

If a developer's building site is clean and tidy they do not have to pay the tax.

Would the Deputy please allow Deputy Ahern to proceed without interruption? We are discussing amendment No. 172 which relates to an income tax allowance.

I am responding to a comment made by the Deputy. If he had not latched on to this tax he would have latched on to something else. No one blames him for trying to make political capital out of it. I do not believe that rates will be reintroduced.

For many years the city council has been suggesting that the Government should introduce a local sales tax. There has been much fuss about service charges but according to the reply I received to a parliamentary question from the Minister for the Environment £36 million was raised last year. If we raise £14 million or £20 million extra from the residential property tax the total yield will be approximately £50 million. If VAT were increased by 1 per cent — it could be called a local sales tax — we would raise approximately £140 million. As well as the 21 per cent VAT, if we introduced a 0.5 per cent local sales tax the take would be more than the combined take from the service charges and the residential property tax and would provide a much needed £20 million to £25 million in additional funding for local authorities. If I were Minister that is the way I would like to proceed, but it is easy to make suggestions from my position. When one is in the hot seat, one can probably find many reasons certain things cannot be done. I congratulate the Deputy for the political capital he has made from this issue, but, instead of flogging it to death, he should find another issue.

I am glad I came here for this debate because I have learned how to fight an election, something I am not very good at. The weather has an effect also because it is difficult to campaign on the streets in bad weather and one must come in here to get ones point across to the electorate. I wish all the candidates well.

Deputy Yates apologised for the introduction by Deputy Dukes of a property tax and admitted that it was a stupid move. We have been talking for many years about widening the tax base and examining the tax structure — PAYE, capital gains tax and all capital taxes, including VAT. If we want equity we will have to introduce a residential property tax. Nobody has convinced me otherwise. Consequently, I support the Minister's budget announcement. One must consider those being targeted, the owners of 400 SELs, 735 BMWs, Porches and Ferraris. Those are the people who are making capital out of this measure. I sympathise with Deputy Rabbitte having to support that element because in the past he has been seen as the stalwart of the poorer sections.

A tax take of £3 million is small and the effects will be minimal. It has been suggested that home owner organisations have been calling for equity and talking about writing letters and so on. It is simple to set up a system of chain letters with the help of ones supporters. We are aware of how people operate. I have received a small number of such letters and I expect that Deputy Yates, with the assistance of his supporters, was behind the idea.

The Taoiseach's statement at the IMI conference in Killarney was in reply to a question. Of course he was correct, we should have a discussion on the matter with a view to providing the best possible system. Much goodwill will be engendered by that statement. There is inequity throughout the country, we do not have a fair system of service charges because of waivers, non-collection and so on. The system introduced in 1983 by Deputy Yates's party in Government has not worked. The charges were introduced, but they have not been collected. I support Deputy McDowell's suggestion even though I do not always support the views of his party. This is the way forward because there has been too much nonsense talked about an equitable system of financing local authorities. They have lost their base of funding over the years and for that reason there is merit in Deputy McDowell's argument for the introduction of an all-party committee. I am sure my party would go down that road because we are committed to local government. The Deputy should take on board the offer made by Deputy Martin and myself and progress further in that area.

It was the Deputy who suggested it.

That is a dark alley.

It may not be easy to compare rural house property valuations with those in Dublin. Two people living in a house valued at £200,000 would pay in the region of £1,500 or approximately £30 per week in residential property tax. I fail to understand how anybody could disagree with people who can afford property of such value paying a residential property tax. The take is small, we have introduced reliefs in respect of family size and those over 65 years of age are to be considered sympathetically. The Minister or the Government should not be criticised for introducing this measure.

We could consider other options such as a square footage charge in respect of grants. Perhaps we could have a waiver system for those who get into financial difficulties. People who own their own business often have difficulty in paying their rates and the county councils and corporations grant concessions from time to time. This amendment is merely political hogwash. The word "folly" was used here this morning; the folly falls on Deputy Yates.

The residential property tax is not the perfect taxation system or the best system ever designed. It is as faulty as the human nature of those trying to introduce something that is perfect. We all fail at achieving perfection. However, it has addressed one issue, namely, whether certain sectors of society should pay an additional tax. I am not an expert in this area but I see merit in much of what Deputy McDowell said. His comments are clearer than those of anybody who has spoken so far on the Opposition side. His position is opposite to mine, but in the two extremes there is one point with which I agree. He sees merit in negotiation or discussion regarding local authorities using that system as a means of raising finance. That is a reasonable way to proceed on this issue.

I see eye to eye with Deputy Rabbitte on most matters, but we disagree on this one. My position is clear in this regard. I stand corrected, but I believe Deputy De Rossa said his party was in favour of the property tax.

That is not true.

I may have misunderstood him, but I thought he was in favour at some stage of the introduction of a property tax.

That is correct, but this is a home tax.

Property is sometimes a home.

I thought he was in favour of the RPT.

Yesterday the Deputy said that we cannot talk about taxation in narrow limited terms, but in the broad sense. Deputy Rabbitte did not mention that this tax should be compared with other taxes and should be considered in context with the £300 million given back to PAYE taxpayers, is the first major break for that sector.

People can be taxed in three basic areas, namely, property, VAT on goods and services or income. I am sure nobody here would agree that income should be taxed further but, rather, that income tax should be reduced. What should we do in order to reduce it? We cannot increase VAT because that would affect equally the well-off and the less well-off. Both the poor and the rich would have to pay a similar price for goods. We are then left with property, with reliefs in respect of income. VAT cannot be allowed get out of control because that would distort the cost of goods and services. Therefore, we must consider a tax on property whether we like it or not. One could be comfortable and happy in a cheap house, but if one wants to accumulate wealth one could sell it and buy a more expensive one. However, a person who makes such a move may be considered to have wealth and be asked to redistribute some of it. How can the redistribution of wealth be equitable? The taking of money from one group and giving it to another will not be equitable for all groups. People decide whether they support the idea of taking money from certain sectors of the community through taxation and giving it to others in the form of hand-outs.

Colm Rapple was the only media person who made a major attempt to give a balanced approach to the debate. People were surprised by what he said. The absurdity of the matter was highlighted by the fact that local authority tenants believed they were liable for property tax. It is time the position was clarified. People are beginning to realise that many comments made about the tax were untrue. Many people who agreed with what Colm Rapple had said about tax reform were shocked that he supported the idea of a property tax. Although it is not perfect, he saw some merits in it. The bottom line is that people who favour a property tax would support this tax.

Different tax measures will apply to industry, the PAYE sector and the self-employed. We must introduce equity into the taxation system but the redistribution of wealth from one group to another cannot be equitable.

Child allowance was included in the last two budgets. It was paid to all eligible parents irrespective of their income, to some parents who did not need it and to some people who are being asked to pay a small proportion of their income in residential property tax. Those people did not complain about receiving the child allowance but those who have a higher income complain about being asked to pay a little more than others. Some people have concerns about the tax because they do not understand it. It is not perfect. Consideration should be given to Deputy McDowell's suggestion that there is a need to examine a structured system of property tax and to include local authorities in the debate so as to avoid scare politics in local communities and people being scared to contemplate an alternative to income tax.

The hype over the property tax raises interesting issues. The myth that we will be able to reduce taxes and at the same time provide better services is unfair to the public. It is an impossible equation unless we enter a spiral of borrowing. The other measure suggested is that a clamp should be put on public service pay from top to bottom, but if it were not applied throughout the service it would be ineffective. We must be honest and realise that services must be funded and only people can fund them in the long term. Taxes and the approximate level of current taxation are here to stay because people are demanding more services. As a politician, I receive more complaints about the lack of services than I do about tax rates. Although there are complaints about equity in the tax system — at times politicians do not credit the intelligence of the public — most sensible people realise the need for taxes to fund services.

If the Opposition could not latch on to some provision in the budget something would have to be created because it must give out about something, and this year it was the RPT. If it is to be successful in its opposition it must scare a huge number of people by telling them they will be caught in that tax net. If that argument falls flat, it tells people that if they are not caught this year the Minister intends to lower the tax threshold to £5,000 and the house value to £20,000, and if people are not caught this year they will be caught next year, although we all know that such a measure would be politically impossible. Some disingenuous comments have been made about this tax.

I was surprised that proposals were made the day before yesterday to reduce the tax rate to 40 per cent and remove the property tax, but no one has said what services will be cut. The figures in such a proposal do not add up.

Regarding a proposal by Deputy Rabbitte's party, I was baffled by why a tax rate of 2 per cent payable by people who have an income of more than £25,000, with built-in good marginal tax relief's, is causing more of a furore than the means testing of people in receipt of social welfare benefits. It is estimated the tax will bring in £3 million in revenue. That figure could be made up by 3,000 people paying an additional £1,000 or 30,000 people paying an extra £100. We must put the matter in perspective at a time when 290,000 people are on the dole, living on the margins.

There has been much talk about local government reform and equity in that system. I welcome what Deputy McDowell said about all-party agreement on this, but I would go further and suggest that all parties should examine the whole tax structure in a fair, reasonable and rational way, and if some measure is agreed they should all support it. The taxation structure and local government funding should be considered not only in terms of funding but also in respect of regional equity. The fiscal studies report published a few years ago showed that when account is taken of the commercial base in cities and central Government funding, the bias in local authority funding favours large urban conurbations.

That is wrong. That money has been paid by people in Dublin.

The Dublin area is receiving money under the rates support grant from central Government.

Let us hear Deputy Ó Cuiv without interruption.

Are some of the people who own houses on the road to Carna and Carraroe paying RPT?

The position becomes clear when one considers the relative rate of service charges. The service charge for water in County Galway is £100, it is £145 in Galway city and to date there is no service charge in Dublin city. During the past ten years at today's figures, somebody in Carna with an income slightly higher than the social welfare limit would have paid £1,000 in service charges while a person on a similar income in Dublin City has paid no charge. I would be interested in the findings of an independent analysis of the regional basis of our tax system.

On a point of order, we have gone way beyond the scope of the amendment. This is a limited debate. Many Deputies may have heard of bond washing, balloon leases and different aspects of the capital acquisitions tax accumulator but only an hour remains to deal with 17 amendments and we seem to be discussing taxes in every county in a rambling fashion. That is not in order.

It is relevant because we have a right to talk about them.

I can recognise a filibuster when I hear one.

Surely the Deputy is not going to deny people their rights and go down that road again.

I am entitled to show the same leniency to backbenchers in order that everybody gets a fair crack at the whip. That is the reason this is turning into a general debate on tax rather than on the proposal in Deputy Yates' amendment. People are entitled to debate the matter in its broadest sense and this is the only opportunity we will have to do so. When the main spokespersons have had their say backbenchers are entitled to contribute.

The Chair has been very fair, but the spokespersons are entitled to ask where was Deputy Ó Cúiv and his colleagues for the last three days? The spokespersons did not shut them out at any stage. If they wanted to be here to talk about capital acquisitions tax, Euro bond washing or whatever, they would have been given equal time. Nobody tried to dominate the debate.

Where was the Deputy yesterday?

I was in the House contributing to the ESRI report.

(Interruptions.)

I spoke on the ESRI report in the House yesterday and that was the only hour I missed in this debate since it started.

Very detailed points have been made here and the Minister said he would deal with anomalies. However, we will not be able to debate any of the anomalies or receive a response from the Minister if we have a general discussion on the entire tax system. Many Members, including Government backbenchers, have expressed concern about various details and I do not know how the chairman proposes to structure the debate. There are very detailed points in 17 amendments, not all of which are in my name. Some are in the Minister's name and he has made no contribution to them. Unlike Second Stage and Report Stage, the whole point of Committee Stage is to deal with detailed points, but we are not doing that.

There is no time restraint on Members' contributions at this stage and I have no right to restrain them. I can ask Members to be as brief as possible, but we have no right to try to muzzle any Member of the Committee, irrespective of whether he has been here from the start of the debate. I accept Deputy Rabbitte has been here for all the debate apart from the time he spoke in the House yesterday, but if the Deputy checks the voting records he will see the attendance of other Deputies also. There is no need for Members to score points.

I would ask the Minister, to refer to all these amendments as opposed to amendment No. 172 only.

I am sure the Minister will give a broad reply.

If I had been allowed continue I would have been finished a few minutes ago. I would point out to Deputy Rabbitte that I was here on Wednesday. Yesterday I attended a meeting of the NESF and even a Connemara person cannot be in two places at the one time. The objection to residential property tax relates to urban area versus rural area. That is the genesis of the argument. We should ensure equity in this regard. We insist on taxing fuels heavily, particularly petrol, and it is estimated that a rural person in a PAYE job pays £750 more in excise duty per annum——

We dealt with taxes on petrol yesterday and I would appreciate if the Deputy would facilitate everybody by staying as close as possible to the matter under discussion.

I will come back to that matter in a moment. A rural person pays £750 more in excise duty per annum than his or her urban counterparts. There must be some means of redressing the imbalance whereby people in rural areas pay more indirect taxes than those in urban areas. I would point out to Deputy Rabbitte that one of the reasons the tax office is unable to give a regional breakdown of taxes is that tax is dealt with on the basis of the location of the employer rather than of the person paying tax. For example, my tax as a Dáil Deputy is dealt with in Dublin, not in the local tax office in Galway, and I would like to see that system changed.

I suggest that the total tax take from Connemara be transferred to Connemara.

Is the Deputy aware there is a low paying community in Connemara?

I am very familiar with it.

I would also point out to Deputy Rabbitte that the vast number of people in rural Ireland are on PAYE. Most farmers in the area in which I live pay farm tax through their PAYE income. One of the great myths that has been perpetuated relates to this matter. Small farmers who work outside the farm pay tax on the farm through the PAYE system. It is about time we were rational when talking about tax equity.

I do not favour taxes on non-realised assets because they create anomalies. I favour taxing income, paying for services and the realisation of gains. In rural Ireland people have had very bad experiences of taxes based on non-realised gains in the transfer of land. One could argue on an academic level at least, against the concept of taxes on property that are not realised and say that the tax should be levied when the gain is realised. However, that argument would be valid only if there is a very tight system that ensures that everybody pays tax on their full income. To provide that such a system be in place, it is important that everybody supports whatever measures are introduced — rural areas accepted the RSI number requirement for farmers — by Revenue to ensure full tax compliance.

Debate on the residential property tax has been taken out of context and totally magnified. When the election is over people will ask what were we talking about. There were some anomalies in the proposals as outlined in the budget. I welcome the extension of marginal relief and relief for those over 65 years of age. Those changes have made the tax much more equitable. I have always fought against cut-offs whereby if you are £1 under the limit you pay nothing and if you are £1 over the limit you could end up paying a large sum. The Minister has taken some of the gross inequities out of the tax system by way of these amendments.

To correct Deputy Rabbitte's observation that we might be well off in the rich midlands of Westmeath, I come from a poor part of Ireland. I meet many people at my clinics — 33 or 34 per month — and only three people have contacted me about the residential property tax.

That is not surprising.

It is not surprising because people in that area are used to paying their way. The people in Westmeath have paid service charges since 1983-84 — we pay the third highest charge in the country. People there have always paid for their services and there is a 95 per cent collection rate in that area. I accept there is a problem in that people who pay money to the Exchequer by means of income tax believe that should be sufficient to cover services — that is a belief with which all of us would concur. I agree with Deputy McDowell that it is time we evaluated the taxation base.

The proper way to fund local authorities would be to provide that each local authority make use of the vehicle registration tax it has collected. That would be an important means of local authority funding. Local authorities have been burdened with many outlays, one of which is the maintenance of courthouses, and that is the reason they are in dire straits financially. Much legislation is passed here, but local authorities do not receive the necessary finance to provide services. I concur with Deputy O'Keeffe. People who come to my clinic ask about the provision of additional services while others complain about the level of taxation. However, if people feel they are getting a reasonable return for their taxation input they will be happy. The few people who did contact me about the property tax came back and said that the amendments to it made a major difference and addressed the anomalies they saw in it.

The whole point is that it does not apply down there.

The point is that we have always paid our way; we have always paid about £160 a year. If I had a house worth £150,000 I would be delighted to pay; but, unfortunately, I am not in the upper income bracket. The Adam Smith theory is that if one's property increases in value one should pay more. If a house has three bathrooms, more water is used. A person who has a 3,000 sq. ft. house should pay more than somebody living in a local authority house of only 800 or 900 sq. ft. I subscribe strongly to that principle. If I were kicked out of the Dail in the morning, I would hold firmly to that belief. I represent many people, including people languishing on hospital waiting lists. If it takes an extra 1p in the pound to relieve the suffering of such people, I am prepared to go along with it.

The Deputy should address himself to the amendment.

This is a taxation debate. The Tallaght Strategy subscribed to leaving people on waiting lists.

The Deputy may be a new Deputy in the House but he might be advised that there is a difference between Committee Stage and Second Stage.

I do not need Deputy Yates' advice. I am quite capable of understanding how to proceed.

Deputy Penrose might try to stay close to the amendment, within reason.

This is a shift of the overall taxation base away from income tax and on to property or some other base. There are not too many people in local authority houses who are liable for this tax and they are the people who must be protected. Neither will anybody earning under £30,000 have to pay it. How many tax payers in the country earn more than £30,000? How many own houses worth over £125,000? We would all like to do away with tax and take our gross income home, but we cannot do that. However, if the money were allocated locally and spent locally by the local authority there would be greater acceptance of this tax. I subscribe to that view because this debate is about whether we are about to continue to tackle the excessive levels of tax on income and spread it over a wider area. For Deputy Rabbitte's information, many small farmers work three days a week in meat factories or elsewhere and so on and their returns are included in the overall returns of PAYE workers. It is, therefore, impossible to say who pays what.

I was surprised to hear it said this morning that this tax is a Labour tax, the implication being that members of the Government do not decide collectively about such things. The late Frank Cluskey, a man of the highest principles, was referred to in this context. When that tax was introduced the Labour Party had only three or four Ministers in Government.

They were of a high calibre.

They were obviously of a high calibre because they carried the day.

There were more than three or four. They included the Taoiseach of the day.

The Deputy would be more knowledgeable about that than I. Nevertheless, there is collective responsibility for anything that is introduced at Government level. Although I have been in this House for only 15 months, I have been a long time in politics. Measures are taken that I strongly disagree with, but I would not shout about it from the rooftops. One cannot cherrypick, taking credit for the good things and running away from what is not so nice. The same principle should apply to the 1983 period of Government. One cannot say now that one was forced into implementing something against one's wishes. I am not a member of Cabinet and I do not know how it works, but I am surprised at the revelation.

This tax has an impact on the urban area because of its structure. It is necessary, as Deputy McDowell said, to evaluate the taxation system and decide how we are to fund local authorities in the future rather than leaving them strangled financially and unable to carry out their functions and provide services. If we do nothing else, we should take this back to our parties. I would support that way of going forward.

I will hear Deputies Broughan and Nealon and then the Minister's reply.

I have some sympathy with amendments Nos. 178, 179 and 180.

We are dealing with amendment No. 172.

We will not reach the others.

I was unhappy with the construction of this tax reform. There seems to be what I would call a lazy mandarin approach. If a tax is seen to have been useful it is proposed that it be snipped around the edges to see if it can raise another £4 or £5 million. However that is not genuine tax reform; and the Taoiseach made the relevant point recently in Killarney in the context of local government funding. He said that introducing local property tax was the way to go and that an inter-departmental committee is examining that proposal. The Taoiseach is right about that.

I congratulate the Minister for Finance for listening to his own backbenchers and particularly to the urban Deputies who felt that there were anomalies in the general budget presentation. I welcome the changes he has made which result in a fairer system. I particularly welcome the Minister's thoughtfulness about the situation of certain categories of people, including senior citizens, incapacitated people and widows. That has been a characteristic of this Minister's whole political career. The people in these categories had spent perhaps 20 or 30 years paying for a house. They may have a young person living with them and they are the very people who could be unfairly hit by this tax.

When I discussed some of these reforms with my constituents in Raheny they were generally welcomed. The provision allowing for payment by instalment is welcome also. I commend the Minister for the reforms he has introduced, but I urge him to examine the general position. Up to 1986 the Minister occupied a position which I now occupy, namely, the political leader of Dublin City Council. Following a rebellion by the Dubs, it was his task at that time to reconstruct the £200 million budget of Dublin City Council in order to abolish service charges. More than anyone the Minister is aware of the regional problems which Dublin is experiencing in relation to this whole area.

My colleague from Westmeath did not stay for the whole debate, but one of the problems in my constituency would concern, for example, a young fisherman and his wife who, simply because they live in Howth, find that the starting prices of houses in Howth is approximately £70,000. We have a genuine problem with all of the local authority funding structures that are in place at present. There is no scheme which will enable a young working class couple to purchase a house in the area where they grew up. It is easy to talk about the prices of houses in Dublin; but this is where we live and the more we take care of our own areas, the higher value they will have particularly along the coast. This is a genuine problem and I do not believe the people in the Department took that sufficiently into consideration.

There is also the problem of equity. I have noticed among friends living in areas like Connemara and the midlands that there is no mortgage content on their houses, they are not repaying an equity. People are constructing their houses, paying for them and that is the end of the matter. The Minister is aware that almost every house in the four counties of Dublin, even in local authority areas, increasingly have a huge mortgage content. There are significant problems which attach to people living in Dublin and it is an area which must be examined.

On a recent short visit to the European Parliament with Deputy Ó Cuív, I made clear to him the point, with which I am sure the Minister is familiar, that in the last tranche of Structural Funds, the Dublin region received 3 per cent of itsper capita allocation. In every equivalenttranche before that Dublin received less. In the new tranche, under this partnership Government, the Dublin region will receive approximately 84 per cent of Structural Funds. I have just come from a meeting of the Lord Mayor’s Commission on Economic Development in Dublin where it was stated that Dublin is by far the worst area for unemployment in the country. Compared to the area closest to us in severity, which is the north-west, many people there have access to small farms or some other type of activity in addition to the cultural benefits of living in such a beautiful region, whereas Dubliners live in some depressed and seriously under-resourced areas.

We need resources in Dublin, particularly at local level. I am sure the Minister, as a former leader of Dublin City Council, would agree that we must come up with a structure of local government funding which is fair to all regions. The current systems are not fair to Dublin. I was elected to speak for Dublin, particularly the north side, where we are not happy with the resources available to us. I do not wish to move away from the amendment but, for example, the water system in Dublin——

The Deputy has moved a long way from the amendment.

I commend the Minister. He listened to people both from Labour and Fianna Fail who came to him with genuine ideas and he is prepared to establish a working party later in the year in which, hopefully, we will be able to assess the problems which have emerged in local government funding and in the residential property tax. I hope that in the 1995 budget we can address these problems in a comprehensive way. I have some regard for some of the proposals and I understand the basis on which Deputy Yates put down his amendment. Hopefully over the coming months the Minister will give some consideration to these issues.

I now intend to call Deputy Nealon. Deputy Connolly has indicated that he wishes to ask a brief question before the Minister replies, but we must be fair to everyone. We must finish this section by 1.30 p.m. and it is only fair that the Minister be given an opportunity to reply and that the spokespersons would be given an opportunity to contribute also.

I will endeavour to reply to the amendment as briefly as I can but I will need a fair amount of time to do that.

I have no ambitions to become involved, unwittingly or otherwise, in a filibuster but I have some brief points to make regarding Deputy Yates' amendment.

Most people would agree that the increase in residential property tax was a huge mistake. If the truth were told, the Minister would probably agree also. According to the Minister's figures, we will have approximately £3 million in revenue, which is insignificant in general terms when one views revenue as a whole. For this insignificant revenue of £3 million we have a grossly unfair tax introduced that has done enormous damage, not least to the credibility of all politicians.

During the election campaign both Fianna Fail and Labour said there would be no increase in residential property tax. They did not say this off the back of a lorry, at a church gate, on the doorsteps or in the course of an argument in some areas of suburbia. They said it in well thought out advertising material designed in the most professional manner to influence the public on how they would vote. The record is there; they cannot deny it. The introduction of this tax has done enormous damage not only to politicians in Fianna Fail and Labour but to all politicians. The imposition of this tax is a further erosion of the little credibility remaining to us and we have only ourselves to blame for that.

Fianna Fáil and Labour are to blame for this. I do not subscribe to the fact —and this has been claimed by some members of my party — that this was a Labour initiative within the Cabinet. That might have been true of Labour in the 1970s or 1980s, when it had certain socialist tendencies, but there is no difference now between Labour and Fianna Fáil in Government. Both parties act exactly in the same fashion. Because the calculations would have been done in advance and that £3 million was the estimated revenue from this tax, what took place here was the beginning of a subtle process, the end result of which would be the reintroduction of rates, which were abolished in the infamous manifesto of 1977.

This is an unfair and inequitable tax because the main ingredient in the value of a house is location, not the accommodation. Every house in suburbia, therefore, will be drawn into this tax net. People live in suburbia because they have to have a house and because their workplace is located in Dublin. If their place of work was located elsewhere they might not be subjected to this tax.

The Minister should treat the money as conscience money. In the past people who received money through irregular means often repaid it and notices were inserted in newspapers acknowledging that. What the Minister did was contrary to the promises made by his party and by the Labour Party. He should reintroduce house improvement grants which were abolished the last time we had a single party Government and use the money to pay the first instalment of them.

That added about £200 million to the national debt.

It was the best initiative ever taken and added enormously to the housing stock.

I know all about it.

It has been suggested that this should be referred to an all-party committee. This is a great Government ploy when there is a difficult question to be answered. There was no mention of an all-party committee when the question arose of how to spend the £8 billion. We were presented with a fait accompli, but now that there is a difficult decision to be made the suggestion of an all-party committee is mooted. We must have some system of financing local authorities. The Government has a huge majority and unity of purpose. It is up to them to make decisions and we will evaluate them.

There will be severe opposition to any tax reform measures. Let us face up to that reality. Irrespective of what Government is in power, no political party wants to face the issue because of the flak it will receive.

I was in the Department of the Environment as junior Minister for almost eight years. Whenever I suggested doing something about the issue there was wholesale hostile opposition to it. No party has a plan to deal with financing local government. Fine Gael need not try to say they have one. I never saw one. The Progressive Democrats do not have a comprehensive programme to deal with it. They just did a pitch fork job on it. They looked for a cop-out by trying to involve everyone in a process they did not want.

In some areas people pay for water and other essential services but in Dublin people did not pay anything before this year. They wanted ratepayers to pay 10 per cent more. In Offaly we have kept in line with inflation at 3 per cent. Dublin took the easy way out and threw the burden onto the hard-pressed ratepayer — shopkeepers, industrial premises, etc. They were left with no option but to bring in charges when the Minister said he would abolish the authorities. I am fed up of people telling me about tax reform. What people want us to do is lower the rates and widen the bands.

We discussed this issue in Private Members' time. The tax reliefs, breaks for small business and assistance for the PAYE sector in the budget were favourably received. However, there is always one item in a budget which is singled out and it is residential property tax in this case. It is an item which is raised on every platform and particularly with canvassers on the doorsteps.

There are 900,000 houses in the State and the tax will apply to 30,000 of them. It represents a small proportion of houses. If I did not make any change, the tax would have brought in £15 million. It will now bring in between £11 and 12 million. That is a one-thousandth part of the total revenue the State will collect this year. The equivalent in the UK or the US would be about 4 per cent, that is recurring house taxes as a percentage of total taxes. Here it is .001 per cent. That is what we have been arguing about. Even if we had received the £15 million it would not have surpassed VAT on ice-cream which brings in £17.5 million. However, it is an item in the Finance Bill and we must treat it seriously.

The Government responded to the criticisms made following the budget announcement by removing any anomalies in the tax which would cause unreasonable hardship to families. I listened carefully to all Members. Deputy Yates and others sponsored a Private Members' motion and I received deputations from my colleagues in the Government parties. Following that I extended the marginal relief up to £35,000 of income —£40,000 in the case of the elderly — and modified the definition of household income in the case of the incapacitated, elderly and widowed persons. I provided the option of a phased payment facility and gave relief where a house needed to be extended or adapted to cater for a disabled or incapacitated person. I have also provided for hardship cases and an appeal system which was not included in the 1993 Act or introduced under any amendment since then. Under this system people in genuine hardship may make an appeal to the Revenue Commissioners who will have broad powers to deal with such cases.

It should be remembered that the marginal relief and child relief substantially mitigate the impact of the residential property tax on households. Most households, particularly new households, will qualify for one or other of these reliefs. Deputy McDowell referred to banded charges. I have introduced banded charges for houses valued under £100,000. He also referred to self assessment. Last year I introduced a clearance system for houses which are sold. This change will be of some assistance.

Reference is always made to the hardship which will be caused by any taxation measure. In the debates which have taken place on radio and television and elsewhere reference was made to the income limit of £30,000 but no reference was made to the marginal relief and child relief. As I have repeatedly pointed out, the number of people earning £30,000 accounts for only a small proportion of the total number of taxpayers. However, I will use the figure of £30,000 in order not to distort the argument which has been made up to now.

A couple earning £30,000 with two children and have marginal relief of 15 per cent, will pay £10 per annum on an £80,000 house; £50 per annum on a £90,000 house; £70 per annum on a £95,000 house and £400 per annum on a £150,000 house. Reference has been made to hardship cases, but I do not honestly believe that a £10 per annum charge on an £80,000 house is excessive for a married couple with two children who have marginal relief at 15 per cent. Later in the year when people's attention will be focused on another issue no reference will be made to the residential property tax. The 1 per cent income levy caused terrible hassle when it was first introduced but less attention was devoted to it as the year went on. The only point which worries me is whether it will be worthwhile employing people to collect this £10 per annum charge. No one has asked about the cost of collecting this tax.

The residential property tax is a modest measure which will introduce some equity into the tax system. Deputy Dukes, who introduced the concept of a residential property tax in 1983, acknowledged that this tax was not a money spinner. The tax was introduced at that stage to tilt the balance in the tax code in favour of productive investment in an effort to create and safeguard employment. The present tax structure has tended to encourage more than necessary investment in housing. It has also given rise to tax driven trading up with an undue bias towards the purchase of houses as investments rather than homes.

Every major report has commented on this trend. Deputy McDowell has shown great courage in getting involved in this debate — normally an Opposition party would ignore it — and it would be wrong of me not to acknowledge this point. The two Labour backbenchers who spoke today said that this matter should be dealt with. It may not be possible for me to deal with this matter in next year's budget but it is necessary to deal with it. Otherwise future Ministers for Finance will still be dealing with the same issues in 20 years time — why do we not tax land and property and introduce a probate tax? — with the result that the base will never really be broadened.

I acknowledge the time spent by Deputies Rabbitte, McDowell and Yates debating the Bill, but I think they would acknowledge that one would need hundreds of millions of pounds to develop a totally equitable system and to remove tax from earned income. The reality is that we will never be able to do this if we do not broaden the base. Increasing the price of a pint by one penny will not correct all of the problems in the system. If we want an equitable system other measures will have to be taken and the base will have to be broadened.

The Commission on Taxation, the NESC, the Culliton report, the ESRI and the OECD have pointed out that the tax advantage of investing in dearer houses can only be to the detriment of industrial and commercial investments, which are essential to employment growth. People do not like to hear this, but it is a fact. Yesterday morning Gay Byrne referred on his radio show to the record prices being paid for houses, some of which were sold for £500,000. I am sure the people who bought those houses earn more than £30,000. However, having listened to various radio and television programmes over the years one would think that everyone who owns a house worth more than £500,000 earns only £10,000 per annum. If any of these people ever became Minister for Finance they would have no trouble eliminating the national debt, reducing income tax to 25 per cent and solving all the other ills in our economy. However, I am Minister for Finance and I am trying to introduce some equity into the system.

It has been argued that the residential property tax is an anti-Dublin tax. This is too simplistic an argument. I accept that a significant number of the houses valued at more than £70,000 are located in Dublin, but this simply reflects the fact that location has a major impact on the value of a house. House prices also vary in Dublin. For example, a house in Howth tends to be more valuable than a similar house in Tallaght or Clondalkin. It is also true to say that houses in Dublin tend to be dearer than houses in other areas. If one does not determine the level of tax on a house on the basis of its value, what criteria can one use? I am sure Deputies would agree that it would not be fair to determine the rate of tax on a house on the basis of the floor area, the number of rooms or the number of windows.

Amendment No. 172 proposes that any residential property tax paid in full should be credited against a person's income tax. The notion of a credit would be entirely circular; one would simply be taking with one hand and giving back with the other. By definition, this approach would cost the full residential property tax yield of £12 million. Even though Deputy Yates would like to do this, needless to say I cannot accept his amendment.

Amendments No. 173 and 174 would have the effect of abolishing the residential property tax, something I know Deputy McDowell does not want to do.

(Interruptions.)

The residential property tax has been in existence for the past 11 years and it has never yielded a significant amount to the Exchequer. The yield in 1993 was £9 million and the proposed change in this year's Bill will raise an additional £3 million. The Government remains convinced that the extension of the residential property tax is a modest contribution towards the introduction of equity in the tax system.

Amendment No. 175 is based on the argument that the mortgage part of the house is not owned by the householder and, therefore, the residential property tax should be calculated on the net equity holding. The effect of the amendment in the case of a house worth £125,000 with a mortgage of £50,000 would be to exempt such a house from residential property tax as the owner's equity is only £75,000. This argument might have some validity if residential property tax were charged on the full value of the house but it must be borne in mind that the tax is charged on the value in excess of £75,000; the first £75,000 is exempt anyway. It also fails to take into account that a significant tax subsidy is already provided in the form of mortgage interest relief, which this year amounts to £150 million in total.

With regard to Deputy Yates's amendment No. 176, I should say our Constitution requires that a married couple be treated no less favourably for income tax purposes than two single individuals. In simple terms this means if, say, John and Mary, being a married couple, each decide to have a house in their own name, the State can charge them no more tax than if they were single individuals; that is the position under our Constitution. If a husband and wife jointly own a property worth £150,000 they will pay the same amount of residential property tax as a single person owning a property worth £150,000, or an unmarried couple owning such a property. Similarly, if a husband and wife each own a property worth £75,000, they will pay no residential property tax. The same position applies if two unmarried people each own a property worth £75,000. It is a distortion of the factual position to contend that residential property tax discriminates against joint ownership. The vast majority of married couples in this State have no more than one house and, in the vast majority of cases, the same tax is payable whether the house is in the sole name of one of the partners or is owned jointly. In the limited number of cases in which a married couple own two properties, each of which is in the ownership of one of the two partners, it is not constitutionally permissible to treat that married couple less favourably than two single individuals by aggregating their properties and treating them as a unit for residential property tax purposes. The amendment seeks to discriminate in favour of a married couple where the married couple jointly own more than one property. That cannot be done since, if the amendment were to be accepted, the position of married couples having two properties jointly owned would be considerably more favourable than, for example, the position of a parent and child or two brothers and sisters in similar circumstances.

Acceptance of this amendment would introduce into the residential property tax code a concession in favour of married couples which would not be available to couples in a relationship outside of marriage. It is fundamental, if an element of favourable treatment is to be introduced into a tax code, that the treatment be targeted at the most needy, which is clearly not the case.

Deputy Yates's amendment No. 178 proposes the income to be taken into account for purposes of entitlement to either income exemption, where the income is less than £25,000 per annum, or marginally in the case of incomes between £25,000 and £35,000 per annum or, in the case of a 65 year old, with an income of £40,000 per annum, but broadly speaking, "household income"—that is the income of all persons normally residing in the house — is clearly the most equitable basis for determining entitlement in the case of either of those reliefs.

Take two identical houses located next door to each other, each having the same market value above the residential property tax threshold: living in one house is a widow and two schoolgoing children and her income is £30,000 per annum; the house next door is occupied by a married couple, say, John and Mary, and their two adult children; the house is in the sole ownership of John whose annual income is £25,000; Mary earns £10,000 annually and their children each have annual incomes of £5,000. The effect of this amendment would be that John would be exempt from residential property tax while his next door neighbour with an annual household income of £15,000 less would be liable to the tax. Clearly, such imposition would be totally inequitable. While there are circumstances in which it is entirely appropriate to exclude the income of certain persons in arriving at total household income — and the Bill caters for such circumstances — such as the elderly, incapacitated or widowed house owners——

May I just intervene to inform the Minister that that is not what his officials tell me when I meet them at DART stations in the mornings? That is a well chosen example.

I did not choose the amendment. Elderly, incapacitated or widowed house owners who would otherwise be exempt from the residential property tax on income grounds should not have to worry about falling into the residential property tax net because a relative or some other taxpayer comes to live in the house in order to help them. Indeed, whenever elderly or incapacitated persons, not themselves house owners, live in the house of a relative or friend, their income is excluded in determining whether that relative or friend should be exempted on income grounds.

With regard to Deputy Yates's amendment No. 179, whereas residential property tax fundamentally is a tax on property, nonetheless the code builds in very significant income-based exemptions. For example, where household income is below £25,000 per annum no liability to residential property tax arises irrespective of the value of the property. In addition, marginal relief — which has been dramatically extended in this Bill - ensures that in the case of a taxpayer under age 65 full liability to residential property tax will not arise unless the household income is £35,000 annually. Once again, this general level of abatement, as much as 90 per cent of liability in the case of some taxpayers, is available irrespective of the value of the property.

The amendment totally ignores the fact that exemption from residential property tax on income grounds is based on household income. Indeed this year's Finance Bill contains very significant adjustments to the definition of "household income" which I have already mentioned. It is accepted that a person's financial circumstances can change dramatically and in such a way that he or she may have a very valuable residence but insufficient income to pay the residential property tax.

Any Bill can go only so far in spelling out precisely how such cases should be tackled. I might reiterate that with the best will in the world in tax legislation it is extremely difficult to cater for obscure cases of difficulty or hardship. That is precisely the reason that for the first time I have introduced a fail-safe or catch-all provision by way of a hardship clause in this Bill which allows the Revenue Commissioners to scrutinise cases such as those I have mentioned. In all probability, it would not be reasonable, given the existence of a valuable property, to waive a tax such as this. However, under the powers given them in this Bill, it is possible for the Revenue Commissioners to defer the payment of tax, to allow it rest as a charge on the property for an indefinite period, or until the person's circumstances change. In general, this amendment would introduce a measure of inequity into residential property tax because of the existence of the provisions to deal with hardship.

With regard to Deputy Yates's amendment No. 180, since its introduction, residential property tax has been operated on a self-assessment basis, an approach in place across the entire spectrum of our taxation system. The underlying principle of self-assessment is that the onus is placed on the taxpayer to comply with the tax provisions honestly and fairly. For their part, the Revenue Commissioners always presume a taxpayer to be honest and minimise compliance costs. If this amendment were accepted it would place an impossible onus on the Revenue Commissioners to form a view as to the correctness or otherwise of each and every property value submitted to them. Such a requirement would considerably slow down the administration of the system and I am sure it would be regarded as an infringement of people's rights, leading to an unwelcome outcome for the vast majority of taxpayers.

With regard to Deputy Yates's amendment No. 181, the Revenue Commissioners accept, as a general rule, that the insurance value of a house will take into account factors other than its open market value. In many instances this insurance value will have built into it the cost of demolishing a property which might be badly damaged. It is also freely accepted that, to relate value for residential property tax purposes to insurance value would act as a disincentive to people taking out adequate insurance cover for replacement of their properties.

I am informed by the Revenue Commissioners that the revised, simpler residential property tax form, a draft of which is available to Members, does not require that a householder give any information in relation to the insurance value of his or her property.

The main initiatives put forward in regard to residential property tax have a twofold objective. First, we have targeted reliefs to alleviate any hardship circumstances. Examples of this include removal of incomes of elderly relatives and incapacitated persons from the definition of "household income". Second, we have increased the across-the-board equity and fairness of the tax by having more regard to ability to pay, and a substantial increase in the availability of marginal relief linked more closely to the amount of residential property tax to be paid by an individual and/or "household income". This means, in effect, that those with annual household incomes in the £25,000 to £35,000 bracket will have their residential property tax liability abated by as much as 90 per cent. As the figures I gave recently show, there are not that many people in this State in receipt of incomes in excess of £25,000, never mind £35,000.

Marginal relief is in addition to child relief, which applies a discount of 10 per cent in respect of every qualifying child. Overall it is estimated that in excess of 50 per cent of residential property taxpayers will avail of these reliefs. The proposed amendment is excessively broad based and runs counter to the concept of maintaining a link between ability to pay and the amount of residential property tax. I accept that a special case can be made in relation to Government tax on small saving schemes, a matter which Deputy Yates raised in a parliamentary question some weeks ago. He said that tax free schemes such as savings certificates, savings bonds and national instalment savings schemes have a unique and valuable role and that investment in these sources is desirable in the interests of the overall budgetary position. People are likely to invest in these schemes, as Deputy Yates has stated. I will examine those schemes and bring forward an amendment on Report Stage. That is a valid point.

As it is now 1.30 p.m. I am required, in accordance with an order of the Dáil of 28 April 1993, to put the following question:

That the amendments set down by the Minister for Finance to Part V of the Bill and not disposed of are hereby made to the Bill and, in respect of each of the sections undisposed of in Part V other than section 107, that the section is hereby agreed to.

On that question a division has been challenged.

The Select Committee divided: Tá, 17; Níl, 9.

Ahern, Bertie.

Ahern, Michael.

Ahern, Noel.

Broughan, Tommy.

Connolly, Ger.

Costello, Joe.

Doherty, Seán.

Ellis, John.

Kenny, Seán.

Martin, Micheál.

Nolan, M. J.

O'Cuív, Éamon.

O'Keeffe, Ned.

Penrose, William.

Smith, Brendan.

Upton, Pat.

Walsh, Eamon.

Níl

Bruton, Richard.

Connaughton, Paul.

Creed, Michael.

Currie, Austin.

Durkan, Bernard J.

Finucane, Michael.

McDowell, Michael.

Nealon, Ted.

Yates, Ivan.

Question declared carried.
Sitting suspended at 1.50 p.m. and resumed at 2.50 p.m.
NEW SECTION.

I move amendment No. 190:

In page 123, before section 116, but in Chapter I of Part VI, to insert the following new section:

"116.—The Capital Acquisitions Tax Act, 1976 and section 118 of the relevant Finance Act, is hereby amended in relation to life time transfers of property. The liability for inheritance tax instead of gift tax should arise only where the deceased dies within 6 months of the transfer instead of the current provision of 2 years.".

Section 116 and associated sections, which I welcome, deal with business relief for small businesses in respect of inheritance and gift tax. It is generally recognised that family businesses are often not passed on beyond the third generation. The tax code is a contributory factor. During the last general election campaign in Britain the Conservative Government promised to abolish inheritance tax in respect of family business transfers. For the first time there will be a measure of equity between family businesses and family farms. Provision has always been made for agricultural relief, which has been increased in recent years. Under this section a butcher, publican, retailer or restauranteur will have an opportunity to obtain some relief.

This amendment deals with the question of when gift tax becomes inheritance tax. Under the present rules if a person dies within two years tax is paid at the higher rate — in other words, gift tax amounts to 75 per cent of inheritance tax. What I am proposing is that extra tax should only have to be paid where the person dies within six months. This is eminently reasonable as I do not believe people deliberately decide to die for tax purposes.

They will die from shock when they see it.

I must confess that amendment No. 191 was presented to me by a tax practitioner and I will bow to their greater wisdom. I await the Minister's response.

Section 119 defines a family business which is incorporated in the State. I ask the Minister in amendment No. 193 to reduce the figure of 25 per cent mentioned in subsection (1) (b) to 10 per cent as different members of the family may have an interest in the business.

Subsection (1) (d) states:

Provided that the donee or successor has been a full-time working officer or employee of the company, or if that company is a member of a group of one or more companies which are members of the group, throughout the period of 5 years ending on the date of the gift or inheritance.

Will the Minister change that to a shorter period of two years? It is difficult to envisage individual family circumstances in which this could arise, but it is possible that the relief could be denied to bona fide applicants because of the five year rule. Amendment 195 refers to section 120 which deals with the maximum period of ownership. Paragraph (a) of that section states:

. . . in the case of an inheritance, which is taken on the date of death of the disponer, for a period of two years immediately prior to the date of the inheritance . . .

Will the Minister change that period to six months and the period of five years in paragraph (b) to two years? Once one acknowledges the principle of giving relief similar to that in respect of agriculture, to the business sector, albeit it at a reduced rate, it should be done in a wholesome fashion. I was advised by an expert to request that the word "immovable" be inserted before the word "property". This would mean that certain assets could include mobile assets.

Amendment No. 198 proposes the insertion of the following new section:

"122.—Section 115 of the Finance Act, 1993 is hereby amended by the deletion of‘, either by the High Court, or, where the amount in dispute is less than £15,000,' after ‘court'.".

I received advice from experts in the area of capital taxes in respect of some of my amendments. This is a complex area, but I am sure the Minister's many officials will be able to play ping-pong with the various nuances. Some of the changes proposed are relatively minor and I ask the Minister to consider them favourably.

I have not tabled an amendment, but I am opposed to section 118 which provides if I understand it correctly, that the relief will apply in respect of the taxable value of the asset. It will be reduced by 50 per cent in respect of the first £250,000 value and 25 per cent in respect of the balance. We spent a great deal of time talking about widening the tax base, arguments in which I am sure people do not wish to re-engage.

I am sceptical about additional reliefs. I presume the only argument the Minister is advancing for the introduction of additional reliefs is that they will boost enterprise and maintain strong businesses which will not be drained by the payment of tax on inheritance or capital acquisitions tax. What is the evidence of this. Every time there has been moderate progress towards capital taxes here blue murder has been kicked up and most Ministers have had to back off or pay due deference to the Opposition because it was opposed by powerful people who could wield power.

I am not convinced that this is an incentive to productivity, job creation or business expansion. The Minister is dealing with the type of people to whom Deputy McDowell referred earlier — and the Minister seemed to accept his point — people who are subject to tax on a self-assessment basis. Deputy McDowell stated — and the Minister agreed with him — that self-assessment cannot be taken at face value. I support the Taoiseach's view when he told his United States' audience that the taxman finally gave up in a certain case, but said he would get the person on his or her death bed. That is the position in many cases. Giving additional relief in respect of capital taxes will not boost economic activity. If the Minister convinces me that it will, I will withdraw my opposition to this section.

I will give anecdotal evidence of how this tax operates and Deputy Rabbitte can then decide whether it is reasonable. If a person owned a pub and restaurant and after the application of these reliefs the value of the business was £400,000, that would mean he or she was fully eligible, but £162,500 would still be liable in tax. As the rates of inheritance tax apply at present, once one goes beyond the threshold — that is £162,000 — the first £10,000 is liable for 20 per cent, the next £30,000 is liable for 30 per cent and more than £40,000 is liable for 40 per cent. A son who works in a business for up to 25 years before his father's death could be faced with a £28,000 in tax bill.

Does a threshold not apply before the introduction of the marginal relief?

That is taking all those reliefs into account. A basic threshold of £174,000 for a child applies at present and if the Deputy gives me a gift, the threshold is only £11,600.

How could a sum of £162,000 be liable for taxation in the example the Deputy gave if the total value of the business is £400,000?

As I understand it, on a £400,000 property transfer, relief on the first £250,000 at 50 per cent totals £125,000 and the balance at 25 per cent totals £37,500. A total of £162,500 is liable to the tax.

I thought there was a threshold.

There is a threshold. The thresholds which apply are £11,600 for non-relatives, £174,000 for relatives and £23,200 for less favoured grandchildren or nephews or nieces.

Is the Deputy halving the tax on the first £250,000?

What rate of agricultural relief will apply after the enactment of this Bill?

Eighty per cent.

I do not know how Deputy Rabbitte could justify 80 per cent relief for farmers and no relief beyond the thresholds for other types of business.

I was merely trying to be consistent and I approached a problem from a slightly different angle.

This is the first year there has been a major step forward in business assets relief and it is based on the argument of reward for risk present in the current system before these changes are implemented. Someone with a relatively small estate could be crucified on the present tax base. As this is the first year this measure will be implemented we should not have a row about Deputy Yates' or my tax practitioners. I accept that with any new issue there could be arguments about the operation of the proposed measure during its first year of operation; a complicated one has been raised and I will consider it.

The new capital acquisitions tax relief for business assets involves a reduction for capital acquisitions tax purposes in the market value of trade related business assets acquired by gift or inheritance. The first £250,000 acquired by a beneficiary will reduce in value by 50 per cent while amounts in excess of that figure will receive 25 per cent relief. The relief is focused widely and covers all business activities other than those dealing or investing in land, buildings and certain financial assets. The Government believes it will serve as an important complement to the reliefs already available which assist the transfer of business from one generation to another.

Deputy Rabbitte asked about thresholds that apply to transfers. The generous capital acquisitions tax exemption thresholds for transfers from parent to child currently stands at £174,000 and retirement relief under the capital gains tax. In order to ensure the relief is effective in alleviating the impact of capital acquisitions tax on the transfer of family businesses, promoting enterprise and business development, we have decided to relax a number of the terms and conditions which existed and those which were imposed in the budget. We decided to modify the requirement that the beneficiary must hold a minimum 25 per cent interest in the business so as to enable a beneficiary with a minimum 10 per cent interest to qualify where he or she or a family have a controlling interest or worked on a full time basis for a business for at least five years prior to the transfer.

The modifications will particularly benefit businesses with a large number of potential successors. We decided to reduce the minimum period of ownership of the business asset prior to the transfer by the disponer from five to two years in the case of inheritance and to allow relief to be provided for quoted shares which were unquoted at the time they were acquired by the disponer. Those changes are designed to help the needs of business. The object of the proposed measure is to reward successful business owners. The new relief will act as a spur to enterprise and present owners and potential successors will be more inclined to make a greater effort and take the initiative because of the prospect of less of the fruits of their labour going to the State in the form of tax.

Entrepreneurs will have a greater incentive to expand their business and create new jobs. That has happened in other countries. We could debate this matter all day but the small business task force and the services task force are working to show the proposed measure can have a positive effect. All these initiatives must be based on return. If there is no return or they do not generate employment there is no point in introducing them. I favour keeping such measures under review. If concessions only make profitable positions more profitable and do nothing to expand businesses or create employment, we cannot afford them. I cannot cite any evidence to Deputy Rabbitte other than reports I have had from both task forces during the year. The argument has been made that capital acquisitions tax has placed a severe burden on businesses or forced the sale of many family owned businesses. The facts will show that Deputy Yates has a point in that not many businesses seem to survive into second or third generations.

In considering the impact of capital acquisitions tax on businesses it is important to distinguish between the ownership of the business and its ongoing viability. Selling shares in a business or introducing new capital is not a bad development, it will often influence and encourage enterprise and initiative and is good for business. Capital acquisitions tax is not a tax on business but one on benefits received by individuals by way of gift or inheritance. The rationale behind the capital acquisitions tax is that increases in wealth through gifts or inheritance should be taxable just as an increase in wealth by way of income is taxable.

Regarding Deputy Rabbitte's point, the relatively low yields from Class 1 in respect of transfer from parent to child average about 15 per cent, which is 6 per cent per annum of the total capital acquisitions tax yield and would suggest that small business people should be under the Class 1 category as most of the small transfers are in that category.

On amendment 190, there are two important ways in which gifts are treated more favourably than inheritance for capital acquisitions tax purposes. Firstly, a gift is taxed at 75 per cent of the rate applicable to an inheritance. Secondly, agricultural relief provisions are designed to operate more favourably in the case of gifts than in the case of inheritances. When a gift is deemed to be an inheritance by virtue of the death of the disponer within two years of making the gift, it ceases to be treated more favourably than an inheritance. The purpose of the amendment is to reduce the period prior to the death of the donor from two years to six months in which a gift is made and is deemed to be an inheritance. The aim in treating gifts more favourably than an inheritance is to encourage the early transfer of property between generations, particularly to assist young farmers by encouraging early distribution of land as opposed to its retention until death, or a time approaching death. The period of two years is in keeping with those aims. The suggested period of six months is not considered adequate in that regard. The shorter the period chosen the greater the chance that gifts will be postponed until the donor is advanced in years. That is not only an argument I make but it was used by Macra na Feirme in putting forward the case for the changes that I have now made now. We will see in due course if it is successful. We have given them until the end of 1996 to work on that scheme.

Is that the early retirement scheme?

It is the early retirement scheme together with the capital acquisitions tax relief.

That will be the main assistance.

Will the Minister clarify that as section 119 stands any unquoted shares in a company effectively controlled by the family can avail of this relief.

Will he confirm the company does not have to be carrying on a business and could be one holding an asset?

It must be carrying on a business.

Where is that stated in the Bill?

It is in a later section.

Which section is that?

The beneficiary must have a 10 per cent holding.

I appreciate that, but I am interested in whether the company must carry on a business or whether it may run a "chipper" and own the Mona Lisa. I want to know precisely what we are talking about.

Investment companies are excluded.

Suppose it happens that a company owns the Mona Lisa and runs the "chipper" around the corner, what is the position? It seems that the company must not mainly carry on a business, or the assets need not be mainly business assets. The crown jewels could be part of the assets of the company.

Only the portion of the value of the company that is related applies.

Where is that stated?

It is in section 126 (1) (b), "any excepted assets within the meaning of subsection (2)". Paragraph (c) of that subsection refers to "any excluded property". On amendment 191, in the name of Deputy Yates, this is an extremely complex matter and will be further considered. We will not have examined it for next week but will do so in due course.

As it is now 3.30 p.m. I am required to put the following question in accordance with an order of the Dáil of 28 April:

That the amendments set down by the Minister to Chapter 1 of Part VI of the Bill and not disposed of are hereby made to the Bill, and in respect of each of the sections undisposed of in the said Chapter, the section, or, as appropriate, the section, as amended, is hereby agreed.

Question put and agreed to.
NEW SECTION.

We now come to amendment No. 204. Amendment No. 206 is related and it is proposed that both amendments be discussed together, by agreement.

I move amendment No. 204:

In page 131, before section 128, but in Chapter II, to insert the following new section:

"128.—The provisions of Chapter I of Part VI of the Finance Act, 1993 relating to Probate Tax are hereby repealed.".

I would not object to probate tax if there was not an inheritance tax. As I recollect, between 1973 and 1977 the capital tax structure was reformed and death duties were abolished. Probate tax is death duty by another name. I do not see the rationale for the introduction of even a low rate death duty in conjunction with capital acquisitions tax. That seems to fly in the face of the philosophy of the White Papers produced at that time to justify reform of capital taxes. If the inheritance tax procedure is right, there is no excuse for another tax levied as a death duty; and if the death duty system is right, we should not have inheritance tax. I cannot imagine why we should have a little of both. It cannot even be said to be widening the tax base; it is simply introducing a second form of taxation on the same base. I am opposed to the existence of probate tax and reiterate our opposition to it. I suggest that it be repealed.

The level of vigour displayed by Deputy McDowell is somewhat short of that which Deputy Cox would display on this matter.

So is the brevity.

We may have lost the tax but we have certainly won all the arguments on this matter. The fact that most of the amendments in this regard are in the Minister's name show that the tax is ill-advised. When backbench Deputies were bombarded by members of the Irish Countrywomen's Association on the injustice of this tax, the chickens finally came home to roost. This is the first time a tax was introduced on transfers between spouses. It never existed in the capital tax code heretofore and I am glad the Minister has rectified the matter. The fact that it is backdated to the date the tax was introduced shows it was wrong.

My complaint with this tax is that it is not only double taxation, a tax in addition to capital acquisitions tax-inheritance tax-gift tax, but the threshold is a paltry £10,000. The fact that a person has a car could mean they are over the threshold. It is a tax on people at a time when they are feeling very low psychologically. It takes a particular mindset to introduce such a tax because we are aware of the difficulties and the trauma suffered by widows and orphans, particularly in the case of sudden bereavement and where a spouse has been killed in a tragic car accident in the prime of their lives.

Will the Minister say what progress has been made on the administering of the estate of a deceased person? At present it is not possible to do so until you get a clearance certificate from the Revenue Commissioners to show that you have discharged your liability to probate tax. There could be £40,000 in the bank as part of the estate of the deceased person, but you cannot use it to pay the tax simply because you cannot get the advance certificate from the Revenue Commissioners. I would like to see a system whereby, as in the case of any tax, the money would be payable within 30 days of administering the estate or whatever reasonable time is laid down, with interest penalties for late payments, but with a facility whereby people would not have to go to the bank to borrow money.

I do not know if members of the committee are aware that where accounts are not in joint names difficulties arise with the bank in gaining access to an account. In the case of one of my party branch accounts such difficulties arose when one of the treasurers died and the other treasurer was not available. The banks are happy to hold a person's money in cases such as these. They have accumulated a huge nest egg down the years of unclaimed money of deceased persons. However, that is a matter for another day.

Another problem in this area relates to the family home if it is not totally excluded in all circumstances. One's family home should be exempt from this tax in its entirety. That has been a principle of the capital tax codes, particularly with capital gains tax where the principal residence was not liable to that tax. I understand that the estimated yield from this tax has been reduced from £10 million to £5 million. The arguments made this morning about residential property tax being a bad tax in that it is a poor revenue raiser equally apply to probate tax. The Minister should do the decent thing, resist the temptations by the Labour Party to keep pressure on widows and orphans and repeal this obnoxious tax.

There is not much pressure at present; there is nobody here from the Labour Party.

Given the progress made on medical expenses, I hope the Minister will also relent on this issue. As long as he is Minister for Finance he runs the risk of being the Minister associated with this tax in that he brought it in as an entirely new tax. Why not do as he did with the 1 per cent levy and other matters, do the decent thing, do a U-turn and repeal the tax?

I was not indicating, but I will be delighted to make a brief contribution. I recall being extremely impressed by the Minister's arguments last year on the issue. His officials produced a very nice booklet, which I wish I could lay my hand on now. However, unlike Deputy Yates, I do not have boundless reservoirs of energy to go looking for it, and I am out earlier in the morning than he is. This booklet was prepared on the details of the probate Act before it was enacted and I was impressed by the Minister's arguments. I cannot find the booklet but, while Deputy Yates was speaking, I did find some of the report of the discussion on the last Finance Bill. This is the stage at which Deputy Doyle discovered "the body in the fridge" last year. It must be pretty hardened up by now. Deputy Nealon went a step further when he said passionately:

On my way up to Dublin I passed a ball alley where the sign in whitewash read "Up Dev" and it had withstood the elements and the attempts of non-believers down the years since the 1950s and the 1960s, but now it is finally covered over with a whitewashed, almost three-dimensional "no probate" sign.

It will save me making a contribution if, for the record and for people who study this, I quote two or three sentences of the Minister's response with which I fully concurred and fully supported. He said:

We continually talk about broadening the taxation base, trying to find new ways of spreading the tax load to new areas. This is a very good example of where we have identified a new area, put on a small tax which will hit nobody too hard and spread it across a wide area. Based on the records of very detailed analysis of both urban and rural areas, it is estimated that 25 per cent of estates will not pay any probate tax. A further 25 per cent will pay less than £500, and a further 25 per cent will pay between £500 and £1,000. Therefore, in all, 75 per cent will pay below £1,000 . . . The family residence is excluded from the ambit of this tax, regardless of its value. Pensions are excluded as also are charitable bequests and heritage property. Quick succession relief is available.

That summarises it. That is not the crushing tax that the well-heeled lobby that marshalled against this would have us believe. I met some of those lovely ladies, and I was glad that their husband's could drop them off from their farms to meet me. I listened to them very carefully last year.

The Deputy had better be careful now, because he will be meeting them over the weekend here in Dublin.

They made very little impact on me. I thought the tax was not punitive. There were so many exemptions, reasonable thresholds and so on that I cannot see what the row was about.

I could not quite follow Deputy Ó Cúiv's point which he made earlier today. I think he was getting at me when he said something to the effect that it was remarkable that we spent no time debating the extension of tax to unemployment benefit. We could not because we were not permitted to spend longer than was provided for in the time motion. It is remarkable that when it comes to the area of capital taxes, where there is wealth to be passed on, we work ourselves into a terrible lather. I could not get too uptight about the 2 per cent probate tax and I am sorry that the Minister has been forced to do a U-turn on his eminently democratic instincts of last year when he made arguments that in equity most people would have to support.

I will be brief. I believe the family home should be exempt from this tax. In regard to agricultural holdings, most landowners are taking out insurance policies to safeguard them against it. In some cases the premiums can be written off against tax liability. My only reservation is in regard to the family home which should be exempt because in the country it is often the only thing people have.

We have spent all morning arguing that the family home should not be taxed.

As an urban-rural dweller I speak on behalf of both. I concur with Deputy Connolly, particularly where a son or daughter has worked on the farm, or in the pub with their parents for the best part of their lives and find themselves liable for this probate tax when the parents pass away. That is something that should be changed.

I see that there is a 30 per cent reduction in the case of agricultural property. However, is the farmhouse regarded as part of that agricultural property? I presume we could forget about the 30 per cent reduction if the farmhouse were exempt.

If the farmer were to take out a new folio relating to the farmhouse so that the land and the house are on separate folios, would he be exempt?

The issue in regard to the family home concerns to whom it is left. It is one thing if it is given to a son or daughter who lives in the house with the parent. It is when the family home is given to a stranger that liability to probate tax arises, but in the vast majority of cases that does not arise. This only arises in cases of intestacy or where there is no consanguinity.

On that last point, regardless of the folio, the farmhouse qualifies for tax. If the farmhouse is part of the farm, it is eligible under the Capital Acquisitions Tax Act, 1976.

How does one define whether it is part of the farm if it is on a separate folio and is marked off in the Land Registry?

There is no reference to the folio in this section.

I know it is not mentioned in the section.

I am dealing only with the agricultural property. One is covered for the relief but under the Capital Acquisitions Tax Act, agricultural property is defined as agricultural land, pasture or woodland situ in the State and crops, trees and underwood growing on such land. It also includes such farm buildings, farmhouses and mansion houses together with the lands occupied therewith as are of a character appropriate to the property. The individual referred to by Deputy Connolly is covered in that regard.

Deputy Rabbitte has made some of my points for me on this. There is still £7 million on this particular probate tax. I will reply to amendments Nos. 204 and 206 together. The purpose of these amendments is to abolish the tax. This must be viewed in the context of the current low yield from inheritance tax which represents less than 0.5 per cent of total tax revenues. This merely reflects the relative narrowness of the inheritance tax base.

While there have been some changes, the family home was effectively exempt from this tax. It only applied in cases where the share of the family home passed to dependent children or relatives. Where a share of the family home is passed to a non-dependant, probate tax is deferred until after the death of the surviving spouse.

If the share of the home is passed to the dependent child is it exempt?

Yes. This is an argument about broadening the base. We must get away from the idea that because the take from a tax is small, it is not broadening the base. All the items that Deputy Rabbitte read out from last year were actually proved statistically correct at the end of the year.

What is the definition of a dependent child or relative?

There is a definition in the Bill but I will come back to that. To reply to Deputy McDowell's point that there should be two taxes, the probate tax takes a far wider base. It applies to three-quarters of all estates whereas the inheritance tax applies only to one quarter of all estates. They are not the same. The probate tax is allowed as a deduction against the inheritance.

The Minister referred to one quarter of all estates. All of the inheritance tax quarter lies within the probate tax three-quarters.

That is true, but if one is paying inheritance tax, one is entitled to a full reduction for probate tax.

When someone who has amassed wealth dies, that is there after tax residue. As they worked hard throughout their lives, made some money, bought some extra land, added an extension to their restaurant or bought a second pub, they paid income tax the whole way through. The Minister is trying to get a second bite of the cherry.

We are talking about different people. This is a nitty gritty area. Have these people paid their fair share of tax all through their lives? What has been the take for the State? Yesterday, I gave the figures for corporation tax: 60,000 companies, 40,000 with returns, 20,000 paid. If we continue in the belief that everybody is paying tax on everything — and I am not talking about tax evasion or illegal avoidance mechanisms — the base will never be broadened and it will always be too small. It is all too easy to get PAYE workers because they are paid every Friday. We should be honest; that is what we are saying in this debate. I tried to retain this despite the hostile reaction from around the country and I believe we have made some sensible changes but that does not take away from the argument that we are narrowing a base that is already too narrow.

In the course of 1993 we received £52 million in capital taxes out of £9,704 million. That is the position and with the exception of one individual, no Member of this committee ever addressed that issue in the House. Deputies want to narrow the base, but in narrowing the base income tax and VAT levels will remain high. I do not mind Deputies arguing against it but they should be honest about what they are doing. To broaden the base would require the reduction of the thresholds and it would be less onerous and more equitable to apply only a 2 per cent rate to the majority of estates. To reply to one of the points made by Deputy Yates, the Revenue Commissioners always give a clearance to release money from the bank to pay tax when requested. That is the procedure.

Even if there is no payment?

If there is no money to make the——

My understanding is that——

One needs the clearance before one can get the money.

That is fair.

I agree with that.

To address the point raised by Deputy Michael Ahern, the only circumstances in which a family home is liable is if it passes to someone who is not a spouse, not a dependent child and not a dependent relative. I believe that is fair.

What is the definition?

A dependent child is defined as someone who is under 18 or receiving full time education or who has an income limit of £4,023 per annum.

If one has a 14-year old son living and working on one's farm, he must be paid £80 per week.

No, because he is living at home.

What happens in cases of intestacy and the property does not go to anyone in particular? In those cases, if the property has to be sold, for instance, does it attract the 2 per cent levels?

Yes, it does. It makes no difference whether intestacy is involved.

The point I am making is that the property would not be willed to anyone in particular but the executor would have to sell it to make up a deficit in the estate or divide up the estate between, for example, the mother and children, as sometimes happens.

The administrator would have to sort that out. There is a hardship clause in the Bill to deal with that. Such cases are rare.

If I had a substantial life assurance policy and died suddenly and if I had no named beneficiary would the State take 2 per cent of the money?

About 70 per cent of insurance policies are written under trust and would not form part of the estate.

That does not answer my question. "Under trust" means there is a named beneficiary but my question refers to cases where there is no named beneficiary. Is it liable to the tax?

Yes. As regards borrowing the discount for early payment of 1¼ per cent per month should more than compensate for the relatively small interest cost involved in paying the tax.

Amendment put and declared lost.
NEW SECTION.

I move amendment No. 205:

In page 131, before section 128, but in Chapter II, to insert the following new section:

"128.—(1) For the purpose of controlling and investigating entitlement to any allowance, relief or benefit under the Income Tax Acts, the Minister may require such persons as may be prescribed to provide him with such information in relation to such persons or classes of persons as the Minister may determine and any person so prescribed shall be required to provide such information as may be required.

(2) Information secured by the Minister under this section may be transferred by the Minister to the Revenue Commissioners.".

This amendment originated from the Congress of Trade Unions.

It has that look about it.

I knew that would elicit support from my colleagues. Congress is concerned that substantial income to farmers by way of EU premium and headage payments is not fully assessed for income tax purposes. This arises because the Revenue Commission can only access information if they can prove significant default on the part of the farmers in respect of whom the information is sought. Because of this limitation there is no information readily available from the Revenue Commissioners to allow them assess tax liability for income from these sources. In order to address this problem it is recommended in the amendment to include a section on exchange of information similar to sections 221 and 222 in the Social Welfare Act, 1993. The inclusion of an appropriate section similar to these would ensure that information held by a Minister or authorised agencies, which is relevant to the assessment of income tax liabilities, would be available to the Revenue Commissioners.

In equity, Deputy McDowell will probably agree that income from such sources ought be liable to income tax. If this information is held on a database whether in the office of the Minister for Agriculture and Food or one of the authorised agencies, it is reasonable that the Minister for Finance or the Revenue Commissioners should have access to it. I do not think it is unduly intrusive, rather it is reasonable.

The effect of the amendment would be to give the Revenue Commissioners sweeping new powers to access to information — and give me powers to demand information — concerning taxpayers from institutions including banks, building societies and so on. The information need not relate to a claim for relief but could be in relation to any aspect of a person's financial affairs. It would be a wide-ranging power. All that would be needed to justify the request for the information would be a claim to tax relief.

I am anxious to ensure that the Revenue Commissioners are given sufficient powers to enable them deal with tax evasion and avoidance but I could not agree to such a wide-ranging measure. I doubt if a proposal along these lines would be acceptable or justifiable. Deputies will recall that concerns were expressed last year when, in the context of the tax amnesty legislation, easier although restricted access to certain accounts and records was given to authorised staff in the Revenue Commissioners. That created difficulties. In 1992 we introduced measures to considerably strengthen the hand of the Revenue Commissioners in dealing with tax avoidance and evasion. There was all-party support for the measures.

We do not need new powers, rather we should see how effective the existing enhanced regime proves to be. The Revenue Commissioners actively pursue those who fail to meet their tax obligations. As part of their audit development programme, audit operations in Dublin, Cork and Limerick are being radically changed. All audits are being harmonised and co-ordinated and where possible integrated — a matter often raised by Deputy Rabbitte. In future they will be conducted on a sectoral basis. All operations relevant to a particular taxpayer will be subject to a central control. The main sectors presently being investigated are construction, agri-business and fisheries, professions, financial groups, PLCs rental investments, transport services, hotels, publicans, wholesalers and retailers.

ICTU raised the matter of headage payments with me and I hope we have reached agreement on it. We are to return to the matter if necessary. From the beginning of the year we provided tax clearance to just over 100,000 headage payments. That commenced some months ago. We will then look at the EU premium. We are working our way through that.

A solicitor constituent of mine raised a matter with me recently. He is a fully compliant taxpayer. Someone in the Revenue Commissioners decided to look at his back payments over two years and single out the ones that were late by one month or six weeks. They served him a bill for payment retrospectively. He pointed out that the majority of his income is subject to withholding tax and he has paid PAYE and PRSI. Is it the case that somebody is employed to find out who is late making their VAT returns so that they can be charged interest?

It seems to be an unusual case.

When he raised the matter with the Revenue Commissioners they said they had no option but to do this, which is clearly wrong as they have management powers to ignore a late payment.

It is certainly not the normal procedure. I do not know of any unit which has been given the task of checking whether VAT returns are made late.

The reason I raise this matter is that the Revenue Commissioners carried out a similar investigation in a case where they were alleging major fraud.

I am not sure why they would undertake such an investigation; it is not normal procedure. No unit or individual has been given the task of checking VAT returns. I do not know why such an investigation was carried out in this case. A person who has a very good record in terms of tax compliance would certainly not be investigated as it would be considered a waste of scarce resources.

Maybe his record is not as good as he says.

I have to assume that he is an honest person, particularly as he is a friend of Deputy McDowell.

I agree with the general trust of Deputy Rabbitte's amendment but I am concerned about the role being given to the Minister. If the Minister has the power to require any information he likes, in effect any individual could have their tax affairs investigated by him.

The provision of information carries costs, and I do not like the idea of the State being able to demand information as if no costs are involved for the provider of such information.

That is not an unreasonable point. I am not committed to the wording of the amendment and I am amenable to any suggestion by the Minister on how the wording can be made more objective if he thinks it is overly intrusive.

The nub of the matter is the presumption of honesty. As I understand it — I should like to hear the Minister's views on this — the Revenue Commissioners can only access this information if they believe the farmer in question is in default; otherwise they will not look for this information. I am merely pointing out that in recent years there have been very substantial transfers of funds which would be covered under this amendment. If there is a difficulty about the Revenue Commissioners accessing this information then it is not unreasonable to provide some method whereby it can be validated.

I accept the Minister's points about the improvements introduced in the system in recent years, but when we are spending money as a State it seems to be perfectly acceptable to everybody that we can be intrusive to an unacceptable degree.

Social Welfare.

The phraseology is similar to that in the sections of the Social Welfare Act from which I quoted. Everybody thought it was a good idea to be able to do this in the social welfare area. The level of fraud in the social welfare area is now very much under control. Deputy McDowell is raising his eyebrows at me, but I believe the changes introduced in recent years by the Minister——

Deputy Rabbitte missed the story told yesterday about the construction industry and people climbing over walls.

I stand corrected, that relates to abuse of C45s. However, in terms of the total percentage of the social welfare budget, the level of fraud is relatively small. The point I am making is that we seem to think it is all right to be intrusive in the social welfare code but it is not all right to be intrusive in the taxation code.

New technology, training, more co-ordination of work, the strengthening of the offices on a regional basis and the experience gained by the Revenue Commissioners has led to a more effective system. However, one has to maintain a balance. We have been working on many sectors, particularly the agricultural sector. Two years ago people told me I was mad to ask farmers who receive headage payments to register for tax purposes — the Chairman knows that this was not the easiest thing to do — but to date more than 100,000 farmers have done this. We were supported at the time by the farming organisations. I am not saying we have reached the end of the road on this matter, but we have made considerable progress. The inclusion of other EU premiums has been the subject of a battle between Congress and the IFA and the ICMSA for some time.

The number of officers engaged specifically in audit and investigation work has increased significantly in recent years. At the end of 1992, 330 officers were engaged in this work, including staff assigned to anti evasion and special projects. The number of officers engaged in this work was increased to more than 500 as a result of the proposals agreed at the the end of 1992. A total of 614 officers were engaged in audit and investigative work as well as compliance visits at the end of 1993, compared with 450 in 1992. A feature common to the audit programme in all self-assessment countries — this matter was well debated in 1988 when the self-assessment legislation was introduced — is the emphasis placed on case size rather than on the percentage of the taxpaying population. Last year the Revenue Commissioners initiated comprehensive audits in approximately 1.5 per cent of the self-assessment taxpayer base. Since the introduction of the self-assessment system approximately 9,500 audits have been initiated in more than 3 per cent of the current taxpayer base. That level of coverage is very good by international standards. Although the work is slow and intensive, this is how a self-assessment system works. Quick checks are also carried out at random.

One thing I find strange about the Revenue Commissioners is that whenever there is a VAT refund in question they seem to go mad and they investigate that — talk about the difference between giving and taking. When the Revenue have to hand back money one would think it was their own they were refunding.

I am glad to note the dedication of public servants.

In one case in which I was involved peripherally I noticed that they searched through everything, when I thought the person with whom I was dealing was the subject of some massive investigation. When I asked why were the Revenue Commissioners chasing up this transaction so heavily, it transpired that that was standard practice, that when they are paying anything out one would think it was a Federal case.

The last point I wanted to make to the committee — I would say that probably this appears on Deputy Rabbitte's notes from ICTU — is that when I have the 100,000 or so headage payments completed, if we get them completed in the course of 1994, I cannot move automatically to European Union premium payments without European Union approval on the basis that the full cost is borne by the European Union. We are seeking their approval.

Is amendment No. 205 being pressed?

Amendment put and declared lost.
Section 128 agreed to.

Amendment No. 206 in the name of Deputy Yates has already been discussed with amendment No. 204.

Amendment No. 206 not moved.
NEW SECTION.

I move amendment No. 207:

In page 131, before section 129, to insert the following new section:

"129.—Section 58 (2A) of the Capital Acquisitions Tax Act, 1976 is hereby amended by the insertion in subsection (2) (a) of the following:

‘(iii) a person or a child of a person with whom the disponer is living as man and wife.'.".

This is an amendment I had tabled last year when the Minister promised to review the matter. I might give the committee a classic example of a case where the provisions of this amendment need to be applied. Let us take the case of someone whose marriage breaks down, who falls in love a second time, who lives with a woman and they live as man and wife for 30 years. Then the man dies. The house was in his name from the first marriage. Even though they have lived as man and wife, even though she is the remaining spouse—they might have children in the home — the house is subject to inheritance tax as though they had been two strangers because there is no blood relationship, no marriage. The threshold is only £11,600 only which means that anything over that is liable to inheritance tax. It really is desperately unfair on people who find themselves in these circumstances.

Earlier in this debate, in relation to cohabiting couples, second unions, people who are de facto married, we failed to do anything for them in terms of the income tax code. This is an attempt to help them in terms of inheritance tax. I contend that where a disponer had been living with someone as man and wife, the remaining spouse, or a child of that union, should be given the relief of the threshold of the £174,000 or whatever. I had hoped that the Minister would table such an amendment resulting from his review of the past year because it is an absolutely bona fide one.

Am I correct in assuming that for tax purposes there is no difference between what used to be called legitimate and illegitimate children, that they are both regarded as being equal?

If one regards three "non-marital" children as being identical with three children of a marriage, it is most unsatisfactory that a long standing consort, who for one reason or another is not married, gets hammered by the tax system. I suggest that the Minister take on board the necessity to get this divorce referendum in train fairly soon.

This is a family law problem. I might read my notes on this into the record since Deputy Yates raised it, Deputy Michael McDowell supported him and it is something on which there has been much correspondence. When circumstances like these arise — and they do arise — the Revenue Commissioners, in a very open manner and on a broad basis, allow the hardship clauses to be invoked; probably it is one area in which such leniency is at its highest.

Would hardship extend to the level of mitigating principal tax or would it just mitigate to the extent of deferring payments?

It is mainly indefinite postponement. I know some people have studied our debates with particular interest in this matter.

The inheritance tax treatment of married persons results from their status in society. Indeed, society itself will dictate how and when the laws governing that status should be changed. Accordingly, as a matter of policy, taxation law should not be seen to be leading the general law in problems of this nature. Provisions regarding the status of parties to a non-marital relationship should be contained in the general law relating to marriage which would then be reflected in the relevant tax legislation.

If this amendment were accepted it would lead to anomalies. Examples of the difficulties which could arise are as follows. First, under the Family Law (Maintenance of Spouses and Children) Act, 1976, as amended by the Judicial Separation and Family Law Reform Act, 1989, the persons referred to in the Deputy's amendment may already be entitled to support and maintenance from a spouse and parent, already exempted under section 58 (2) of the Capital Acquisitions Tax Act, 1976. Deputy Yates's amendment would have the effect of producing two exemptions in respect of two sets of receipts taken by the same persons, whereas the lawful spouse and child living within a stable marriage would be entitled to one exemption only. Second, the existing exemption applies to particular classes of close relatives but does not apply, for instance, (a) to grandchildren to whom the disponer is not in loco parentis but to whose welfare or education generally he may wish to contribute, and (b) brothers, sisters, nephews or nieces of the disponer whom he may wish to support or educate perhaps because of their poverty, ill health or other reason. Such people are hardly less worthy than those suggested by the Deputy but extending exemption to them would far outstep the “duty” concept.

Third, as Deputy Yates will be aware, in implementing any changes in the tax code there is the necessity to adhere to the precepts of the Constitution in framing such changes. For example, Article 41 of the Constitution binds the State to safeguard the institution of marriage. Therefore, the implications of Deputy Yates's amendment should be carefully considered because its acceptance could lead to anomalies. The possibility of any constitutional problems arising from this amendment reinforces my original suggestion that we await publication of the wording of the proposed referendum on divorce. Lastly, from a practical point of view, acceptance of this amendment would place the Revenue Commissioners in a very difficult position in administering exemption and would tend to encourage the covenanting of income between partners to a non-marital relationship which could result in a considerable cost to the Exchequer over a period of time.

The Minister will recall our debate on this matter last year when he was very sympathetic to my submission. Is the Minister working to a tighter draft this year? The Minister's assertion is faulty in saying that it would create other anomalies; that is not really the point.

As Deputy Yates will appreciate, I am sympathetic, as I think also are the Revenue Commissioners judging by the manner in which they deal with this issue. We spent some considerable time the other morning ascertaining what could be done in this area prior to the holding of a referendum — or post-referendum, depending on its outcome — when we had to revert to the advice that the general law must lead the tax law in this area. I am afraid that is as far as we can go until such referendum is held and its outcome known.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I take it amendment No. 208 is not being moved?

Why not?

It is the same as amendment Nos. 241 and 243. They are out of order.

This section imposes a penalty on directors of companies who made late returns in that they can be charged up to 10 per cent of the principle charge, which is savage.

It does not arise.

I am informed that if one makes a late return and had paid the tax due of, say, £15,000, one could still have to pay a fine under the provisions of section 245 of the Finance Act, 1992, of 10 per cent. There was no discretion on the matter. One of my practitioners has been in touch with me about that issue. If the Minister has a comment to make I would appreciate it.

Amendment No. 243 seeks to repeal section 245 of the Finance Act, 1992. Deputies will recall that section 245 amended section 48 of the Finance Act, 1986, which imposes a surcharge on chargeable persons who fail to submit a return of income. The effect of the amendment was to make all directors of bodies corporate liable to surcharge if they fail to make their tax return on time. Up to that time the surcharge was not applicable to directors who had defaulted in making returns of income. The objective of the provision was to bring all directors fully within the self assessment system and subject them to its procedure so that effective auditing of close companies could be carried out and tax avoidance schemes could be detected at an early date. The affairs of close companies and their directors are often intermingled and directors have been in a position to audit the affairs of the company without having a return of income. Without the returns of income, which are the cornerstone of the self assessment system, it would not be possible to implement effective auditing of close companies or to speedily pursue tax avoidance schemes. Bearing in mind the purpose behind the extension of the surcharge, the Revenue Commissioners accepted that returns of certain non-proprietary directors, including unpaid directors, directors of voluntary bodies or charitable organisations, are not critical to the audit process and would not give rise to detection of any additional tax liability. In administering the new provisions the Revenue Commissioners have issued a statement of practice indicating that returns need not be filed automatically and a surcharge will not apply in the case of non-proprietary directors who are not otherwise within the self assessment system and all of whose income, including fees, benefits and distributions, have been subject to tax directly under PAYE. I have no doubt the approach by the Revenue Commissioners will go a long way towards addressing the concerns of Deputy Yates. If necessary a copy of that statement can be supplied to Deputy Yates.

Amendment No. 208 not moved.

We come to amendment No. 209. Amendment No. 216 is related. I suggest that amendments Nos. 209 and 216 be discussed together if that is agreed. Agreed.

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