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SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 9 Dec 1997

Vol. 1 No. 1

Estimates for Public Services 1997.

Vote 10 - Office of Public Works (Supplementary Estimate)

Vote 15 - Valuation and Ordnance Survey (Supplementary Estimate)

Vote 17 - Office of the Ombudsman (Supplementary Estimate)

Vote 45 - Increase in Remuneration and Pensions (Supplementary Estimate)

It was suggested that the Minister of State address the committee for approximately ten minutes on the four Supplementary Estimates, to be followed by a five minute contribution by each of the Opposition spokespersons. However, he has suggested that his script be circulated and then discussed.

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Finance with special responsibility for the Office of Public Works, Deputy Martin Cullen. I also welcome Mr. Barry Murphy, Chairman of the Office of Public Works, and his officials. The Select Committee on Finance and Public Service is holding its first meeting this evening to consider Supplementary Estimates from 1997 in respect of Vote 10, Office of Public Works, for the sum of £1,082,000; Vote 15, Valuation and Ordnance Survey, £1,000; Vote 17, Office of the Ombudsman, £36,000; and Vote 45, Increase in Remuneration and Pensions, £65 million.

A briefing note on the Supplementary Estimates has been circulated to members. Can we have agreement to the suggested timetable for consideration of them, namely the Minister of State will address the committee for ten minutes on the four Supplementary Estimates, with a five minute contribution from each of the four Opposition spokespersons?

I understand members have a copy of my script. I will read it if that is their wish, but perhaps they could take it as read. This would enable me to refer to the key points and take questions.

Is the script the same as the briefing notes on each Vote?

No. I will have copies of my script circulated.

We are considering the Supplementary Estimates only. Members may not suggest increases or decreases and the debate should be confined to the specific subheads referred to in the brief on the Supplementary Estimates. On conclusion I will ask for the agreement of the select committee to report formally to the Dáil.

It would appears it is the wish of the committee that I read my script. It gives me pleasure to appear before this committee to present a number of Supplementary Estimates on the Department of Finance group of Votes. I look forward to discussing them with the committee.

With regard to the Supplementary Estimate sought for Vote 10, the Office of Public Works, the gross excess over the revised Estimate for the Vote is expected to be £3,656,000, but this will be partially offset by savings of £2.574 million elsewhere on the programme subheads, giving a net requirement for a Supplementary Estimate of £1.082 million.

The main component of this Supplementary Estimate is in respect of subhead F3, rents, rates, etc., on Government accommodation. The original 1997 allocation was £28.576 million, but expenditure is now expected to reach £29.7 million. The excess on this subhead is attributable to two main factors. First, rent reviews have resulted in higher than expected increases due to the buoyant property market. Second, costs of some newly acquired rented accommodation were higher than projected.

Rent reviews in 1997 are expected to result in an increase of £1.422 million for the properties concerned. Reviews are resulting in somewhat greater increases than was experienced in recent years. However, I am satisfied the general level of rental payments by the State remains competitive.

In managing its property portfolio, the Office of Public Works needs to maintain a balance between purchases and rentals. Overall, some 50 per cent of the portfolio is owned and the balance rented. It is generally more economical to own rather than rent property and the Commissioners of Public Works avail of such opportunities as arise to increase the proportion of owned properties. It is right, however, that a proportion of the portfolio should be rented as this allows a high degree of flexibility, in particular the ability to respond quickly to evolving requirements.

The second main cause of the expected excess on subhead F3 is the higher than anticipated cost of new rentals. During 1997, the Office of Public Works entered into new leases for space in the Irish Life Centre, Abbey Street for the Valuation Office, the Department of Education and the Office of the Director of Telecommunications Regulation as well as accommodation in Fitzwilton House for the Revenue Appeals Commissioners. The total rental cost in 1997 for newly acquired rented accommodation is expected to be £1.35 million which is higher than planned.

Vote 15 is a Supplementary Estimate of £1,000 for the Valuation and Ordinance Survey Office. An increase in gross expenditure of £141,000 is offset by additional appropriations in aid of £140,000. The Supplementary Estimate is necessary to meet the costs incurred to date in relocating from Ely Place to Block 2 of the Irish Life Centre. The Valuation Office is currently located at 5-7, Ely Place, Dublin 2. These buildings are leased for the Valuation Office by the Office of Public Works. The lease on two of the buildings expired in October 1997 and, accordingly, new accommodation was sought to house the Valuation Office. Block 2 of the Irish Life Centre became available and it was decided it should become the new headquarters for the Valuation Office. Extensive internal renovation is required before it will be suitable for use. While the renovation costs will be borne by the Office of Public Works the furniture and fittings cost must be met by the Valuation Office. It was envisaged that payment for furniture and fittings would take place in 1998. The contractor, however, is ahead of schedule so part payment for the work completed to date fell to be paid in 1997. The Supplementary is now required to pay the moneys due to the contractor for the cost of the fittings work completed to date.

Vote 17 is a net Supplementary Estimate of £36,000 for the office of the Ombudsman. While the total gross excess on the Vote is £84,000 savings of £48,000 on certain sub-heads reduce the net requirement to £36,000. The bulk of the supplementary stems from additional expenditure incurred because of the extension of the functions of the Public Office Commission in relation to the Electoral Act, 1997. An additional sum is also required to meet the cost of IT equipment which will enable the office of the Ombudsman to utilise the existing computer network cabling in the new premises to which the office will move in 1998.

The 1997 Revised Estimates Volume included a figure of £68.37 million for Vote 45 but an additional £65 million is now being sought in the Supplementary Estimate. This Vote covers the net cost to the Exchequer of PCW local bargaining increases in the Public Service. It acts as a central contingency provision to cover local bargaining which may not have been finalised at the time the Estimates are published and which cannot, therefore, be included in individual Departmental allocations. The cases being covered in 1997 include teachers, paramedic grades in the health services, non-consultant hospital doctors, prison officers, clerical grades in the Civil Service, medical consultants and Public Service pensioners. The cost of the nurses' settlement is not covered by this Vote as the settlement was finalised in time to allow funding to be transferred to the Health Vote in the 1997 Revised Estimates Volume. The main reasons for the additional funding requirement of £65 million are the higher than projected cost of certain local bargaining cases such as those involving paramedics, prison officers and Civil Service clerical grades and the earlier than expected resolution of the cases involving medical consultants and retired public servants. Normally, before a draw from Vote 45 is required any savings which arise in the Vote concerned are first utilised to meet the cost of any such pay increases for the Department or Office. The precise amount of such savings often may not become fully apparent until the very end of December. While every attempt is made to identify savings it is necessary to make a prudent provision at this stage in Vote 45 for the possibility that sufficient may not materialise on other Votes. As far as the cases involving medical consultants and Public Service pensions are concerned it had originally been assumed that these cases would not be finalised until 1998. The earlier than expected conclusion of these cases means that additional funding has to be provided in 1997 but this funding would otherwise have had to be provided next year. The higher than expected level of certain local bargaining settlements under the PCW is clearly a cause for concern because these settlements will result in on-going additional cost to the Exchequer. This year saw a number of high profile settlements which exceeded the PCW cost norm beginning with the nurses' settlement and followed by settlements with paramedics, prison officers and clerical grades in the Civil Service. We cannot allow this assault on the cost limits agreed in the PCW to continue. The Minister has already emphasised the need for any remaining PCW local bargaining case to be resolved within the PCW cost norm and for strict adherence to the 2 per cent limit on local bargaining in the Partnership 2000 pay agreement.

As the Minister announced in his Budget Statement the Government has decided to introduce new arrangements for the management and control of Public Service pay under Partnership 2000. Briefly, these will involve giving each Department an annual allocation to cover the cost of all the Partnership 2000 increases including the 2 per cent local negotiations increase and making it clear to them that these allocations will represent the total funding available to each organisation for all improvements in pay and conditions during the period of the partnership. These arrangements are designed to avoid a repeat, under Partnership 2000, of the cost drift which occurred under the PCW. Failure to adhere to the PCW and Partnership 2000 limits would threaten the future of national partnership agreements and the benefits which these have delivered to all sections of our community in recent years. The best way to control Public Service pay is for all the parties to the national programmes to honour the terms of these agreements. This Government has already demonstrated its commitment to implementing the terms of Partnership 2000. It is entitled to expect that the other parties involved will keep their part of the bargain.

I thank the Committee for its kind attention. I will be happy to answer any questions on the Supplementary Estimates I have just outlined. I commend the proposed Supplementary Estimates to the Committee.

I thank the Minister and his officials for circulating the explanatory material on each Vote and for the fuller explanation of the policy issues which underline the Supplementary Estimates. The Fine Gael Party will not oppose any of these. There are, however a couple of questions which arise from the Estimates. One is in respect of the Valuation Office. I am in receipt of a certain amount of correspondence about an industrial dispute in the Valuation Office. It seems to me that very little is being done by the Department of Finance to allay the concerns of the staff in the Valuation Office. I have put down two parliamentary questions. The Minister's reply to one of my questions indicated, at least, a willingness to open the door to negotiations. I received a reply to a written question again today in which the Minister expresses a willingness to review what has been decided in terms of relocation to see if the concerns of the staff can be alleviated. I have also had contact with IMPACT, the trade union concerned, who tell me they have failed to fix a meeting with the Department. This is a serious issue. The public are seriously inconvenienced. Despite the willingness to settle which is indicated in the replies to my parliamentary questions nothing practical has happened to arrange a meeting with the relevant union I am reluctant to get involved in an industrial relations dispute but this is a serious issue and it has dragged on for several months.

I am sorry the Supplementary Vote for the Ombudsman is so small. I would have thought the Minister would, by now, have taken action under the regulatory powers available to him to increase the remit of the Ombudsman's Office. That has not yet been done. There is a general commitment by the Minister to bring in primary legislation to deal with a series of outstanding issues in respect of the Ombudsman's office but the Minister has regulatory powers by which he can restore to the Ombudsman powers which he had in the past - in respect of the health services in particular. That should be done.

Vote 45 involves quite a large Supplementary Estimate but it arises from the finalisation of certain aspects of the PCW which were under negotiation right through 1996 and 1997. The nurses settlement which I presided over was the leading settlement and was fully justified. The Minister made some good points about the drift in public pay local bargaining negotiations. However, the difficulty arises from the fact that the third phase of the PCW was ambiguous and open to different interpretations. The union negotiators interpreted that looseness and ambiguity in the widest way possible and, effectively, drove a coach and four through it. I hope Partnership 2000 is tighter. It has a long time span and there will be many pressures on the system.

I am not sure of the effectiveness of the new arrangement whereby the 2 per cent increase will be allocated to each Department in respect of local bargaining. For example, the big spending Departments will say the intention seems to be that if they exceed the 2 per cent available the hit will be on their own Vote rather than Vote 45. There seems to be an underlying suggestion that the line Departments were soft on the negotiating position. I do not think they were. However, if the strategy works, well and good.

I would be surprised if the Minister succeeds in restricting it to the 2 per cent by effectively transferring responsibility to the line Department. There seems to be a built-in penalty that if any agency under the aegis of a Department exceeds the 2 per cent the hit will arise elsewhere on the departmental Vote and it will mean a Minister presiding over a cut in services elsewhere in the Vote. That should be stated if it is the intention. The Minister should also state whether he will give the responsibilities to the line Department or whether he will proceed as heretofore with the Department of Finance calling the shots and the Minister in the line Department taking the political responsibility. It has to be one way or the other.

What is the effect of date of payment in respect of pensions which were given parity in the recent announcement by the Minister for Finance?

We will go through those separately in the minutes.

Have teachers now got full pay parity? I am still receiving correspondence which suggest that they do not. The Minister indicated there was some surprise the negotiations with hospital consultants were completed in 1997. I presided over those negotiations and the intention from the start was to negotiate in good faith and to finish before the summer if possible. It casts doubt on my bona fides and that of my officials to suggest that it was always the intention of the Department of Finance that the cost of these negotiations would not arise until 1998. That was not the position.

We also negotiated in good faith on the pensions issue and it is unfair to those who presided over those negotiations to suggest we were foot dragging and the cost would not arise until 1998. That was not envisaged by Deputy Quinn when he agreed in principle to parity for pensioners and devolved the detail to the pensions committee of the Department of Finance and congress to complete the negotiations. There was a bona fide intention to complete the negotiations as quickly as possible. Any suggestion to the contrary should be clarified as it leaves me, other line Ministers and officials open to a charge that we did not negotiate in good faith.

Unless something emerges during the course of the committee's deliberations I do not intend to oppose the Estimates. When the abridged Estimates for 1998 were produced there was an estimate given of the 1997 outturn. I am unclear as to what extent the Supplementary Estimate we are being asked to decide on is included. My understanding is that it is not normal to give an estimate of the outturn for a given year in the Estimates for the following year. This is because it is an estimate and we do not know how much money be spent in 1997. To what extent were these figures given in the abridged Estimate of a few weeks ago?

Will the Minister break down Vote 45 more than he has done in his statement as between the various groups mentioned - medics, prison officers, Civil Service grades, medical consultants and retired public servants? I am only guessing but it seems the concentration must be heavily on one or two of those groups.

I would like to know how it occurred there was such an under-estimation of the amount needed. For understandable reasons it is virtually policy, for example, to under-estimate the amount of overtime for prison officers or gardaí. Is there an element of this in this year's under-estimation? If the Minister indicated we were providing for a certain amount of overtime at the start of the year he would encourage people to use it and a little more. I am not criticising the policy but to what extent does it include a deliberate under-estimation of likely overtime, for example, or this purely local bargaining? Under the PCW what local bargaining deals are still outstanding? What additional costs can we expect in 1998?

My understanding is that it has been the Office of Public Works's policy for some years to buy more and rent less. If I understand the Minister's comments correctly, purchases have not been made in 1997. Will he clarify this and say whether my understanding of the policy is correct? It would seem to make sense to buy more properties than to lease them in the current circumstances. The dispute in the Valuation Office has been going on for some time and is causing increasing concern. The Minister could be helpful to the committee by indicating where the dispute stands.

We all wish to see an extension of the role of the Ombudsman as soon as possible. Will the Minister indicate the plans to achieve this and whether provision has been made in the 1998 Estimates to do so?

We will commence with Vote 10 - the Office of Public Works.

If Deputies have questions on Vote 10 I will take them now and answer them together.

Does the Minister ensure that when new property is rented there is adequate facilities and access for the disabled so that they can work in these buildings?

What is the highest percentage increase in rent under the present review? What is the tenancy period - 10, 15 or 21 year lease? Is there an opt-out clause?

I want to focus on ownership vis-à-vis renting. It is stated it is better value to have ownership. Is it prudent policy to target some of the rented accommodation to see if it could be acquired? If there are increased rents as a result of reviews it seems that will be a drain. Knowing the way greater Dublin is growing and knowing so much of the property is in that area, I suggest that in co-operation with Dublin Corporation, the Department should target corporation sites which have not been brought into productive use to see if a construction programme could aid parts of the city that could do with new buildings. To have State built and owned buildings would seem to be a prudent policy. I agree the lengthy delay in the Valuation Office dispute should be resolved as quickly as possible.

May I have a letter before Christmas on the updated position of the Mulcair Drainage Scheme in the Cappamore area?

On the Zoological Society, subhead C, the Minister says the expected excess of £0.7 million is to be met from savings elsewhere on the vote. The same applies to subhead D. Could that be clarified?

I thank the Deputies for their questions. Deputies Noonan and McDowell asked for a range of information. I will confine myself to answering the questions posed and if there are general questions at the end I will gladly come back to them.

With regard to property, it is the policy of the Office of Public Works to purchase properties where possible. We purchased four major properties last year. The difficulty in a buoyant market is that we must compete with everybody else. The landlords have a figure of 8 per cent return on investment and it is difficult for us to beat this as they will get it in the marketplace. We are aware of properties and we try to maximise the opportunities in terms of the whole range of State property. We would like to increase the mix more in favour of owned property, but it is not always possible. I am not absolutely convinced it would be prudent with the buoyancy of the market to buy all the time. There may be a time for renting. The rental period is 20 years with a seven year break.

Deputy Deenihan raised the question of the disabled. It is policy in both the old properties and in those rented where there is no access for the disabled, to put in place access for the disabled. We have difficulties with some buildings with preservation orders on them. We try to overcome this by finding other sources of access. I know Deputy Deenihan has been involved in raising questions about this, but if the track record of the Office of Public Works is compared to many others, we are to the forefront in ensuring that policy is implemented.

Deputy Lawlor raised the issue of the Dublin Corporation land. We will talk to the city manager about the many aspects to this. As he may be aware we have already started talking about a range of properties and we will expand the opportunities available. There is obviously a relationship between the two organisations which can be maximised to the mutual benefit of each. It is a sensible point.

I will come back to the Mulcair drainage scheme, I may have some information about it.

Are the four properties acquired last year new, or were they already in our possession?

The properties were BIM, Bord na Gaeilge, Goldsmith House and the Perm Rep for Brussels.

Are these properties of which we were already in possession through leases?

Yes, in all cases.

I appreciate what has been said, but it seems a very short time since the Office of Public Works sold prime property across the road from Government Buildings in a weak market. There has been a hot and cold policy and many valuable properties were disposed of at a bad time. Money could not buy them now but they were sold off when they were in State ownership.

There are certain properties I would view with angst given that the State does not still own them. Government policy changes from time to time. We can make judgments with hindsight but I will bring the view to the Department that selling valuable property is not a policy I will pursue. If a property which is not a great asset could be sold to buy another more important asset we will do it, but as a general principle I will not involve myself in divesting the State of properties we have in our portfolio. My intention is to grow that portfolio carefully in the current market.

As the Minister pointed out I have an interest in access for the disabled. Is he aware 85 per cent of Garda stations have no access for the disabled. I realise buildings erected since 1991 have access and there is a good building programme at the moment, but there are several Garda barracks throughout the State without access for the disabled. Old people cannot get in and it is very important for their confidence to have access to a Garda barracks to get advice, forms signed or make a complaint. Is there a policy for those buildings erected before 1991 to upgrade and provide better access for the general public?

Where new properties are being built access for the disabled is being provided. Where old properties are being refurbished, as part of that programme, access for the disabled will be put in place. There are a number of properties no longer suitable for their original function and we will divest ourselves of them. There is a substantial programme of replacement of many properties. I want to maximise the resources we have in the portfolio and develop new properties. If we are not to retain a property I would be reluctant to spend resources. I am anxious to ensure replacement properties are available as soon as possible. We cannot solve all the problems but we are moving faster than people in many areas both in the private and public sectors.

I asked about savings elsewhere on the Vote and would like some clarity as to where the savings are being made.

I want to follow up what Deputy Deenihan asked. A few weeks ago the Minister told the Dáil a programme to the value of £6 million for refurbishment or renovation to make Office of Public Works properties accessible was in place. At that stage £1 million had been obtained. Did the Minister of State succeed in obtaining more funds in the context of next year's Estimates?

I confirmed that information to the House. We got an extra £1 million to add to existing resources. I will add to that sum in every way I can within the general development. The £1 million is more than I will be able to pull from other areas in the context of the building programme.

Therefore, that £1 million has not been spent and is additional funding?

Yes. I can outline where the savings will be achieved. There is a saving of £370,000 in incidental expenses under subhead A1. Under subhead A7, there is a saving of £53,000, under subhead F4 there is £100,000, under subhead H2, £2 million, and under subhead H4 £51,000. That is the total.

As there are no further questions on Vote 10, we will proceed to Vote 15, Supplementary Estimate for the Valuation Office and Ordnance Survey.

Why is the Valuation Office being moved from Ely Place from a fine building of character? Did the State not wish to retain its presence in the building? Was the owner unwilling to renew the lease or could terms not be agreed? The office is being moved to the Irish Life Centre. Why were there no negotiations to renew the lease?

With regard to staffing in the Valuation Office, simple valuations take a long time. That causes delay in the transfer of property and, in the farming community, delays in receipt of early retirement pension and installation aid for young farmers. Has the Minister of State or his officials examined the delivery of service in the Valuation Office with a view to making it more efficient——

The Vote refers to extra costs for the Valuation Office, not to policy.

I am aware the Vote refers to the building, but does it contain anything to assist the effectiveness of the office?

What is the cost of the new office compared to the cost of Ely Place?

On Deputy Noonan's point about the dispute. I understand a meeting is being arranged and is expected to take place in the near future. One does not wish to preside over a situation that is causing difficulty which can be resolved if the two sides get together.

The Valuation Office is currently located in three Georgian houses in Ely Place. The Office of Public Works leases the three buildings from two separate landlords, which makes it more complicated. It was decided not to renew the lease for a number of reasons. The buildings cannot accommodate many of the fittings required for a comprehensive computer system. There are no raised floors to accommodate cabling and air conditioning for the IT rooms. In addition, the costs associated with maintaining those buildings are extremely high.

With regard to the efficiency of the office, it is recognised that the type of accommodation the Valuation Office currently occupies can be substantially improved. The move to the Irish Life Centre will provide a proper working environment for the staff and will allow us to install the computer systems that are now required for a modern office to operate efficiently.

It will cost £3.8 million to renovate block two as a suitable premises for the office and a further £0.75 million to furnish it. The contractor employed to renovate the building commenced work in August 1997 and the work is expected to be completed by the end of January 1998. The office can relocate soon afterwards.

What was the cost of the lease?

I do not have the cost of the lease to hand. I can forward it to the Deputy. Many of these matters are commercially sensitive but the Deputy can take it that we are getting the best possible deal for the State.

It is probably true that the State was already paying for the Irish Life Centre through the Dublin corporate County Council team which is vacating the building.

We will proceed to Vote 17.

A sum of £36,000 is allocated for the Office of the Ombudsman to provide for new responsibilities in connection with the Electoral Act. While I welcome the provisions of that legislation and accept the need to spend £36,000, political parties will incur costs in complying with the terms of the Act. Perhaps the Minister of State might in the future consider providing a sum for political parties under this Vote to provide for such administration costs. The costs for political parties are far greater than the costs associated with the Public Offices Commission, which need only send a number of letters to all parties and candidates and publish advertisements in the newspapers during elections. The cost to political parties of complying with the Act is several times greater and provision for that cost should be made from State funds.

A number of important points with regard to the remit of the Ombudsman were made by Deputy Noonan in his opening remarks. An amendment Bill on that remit is being drafted. I outlined a number of developments in this context during the debate in the Dáil on the report of the Ombudsman.

I agree the remit of the office should be extended and discussions are taking place with various Departments. I wish to see those discussions concluded and the remit of the Ombudsman formalised in its widest context. One cannot discuss resources until one knows what will be put in place. I have some responsibility in this and I wish to bring this matter to fruition as quickly as possible. It is being dealt with but I am anxious that it be concluded. On the costs which will arise from the Electoral Act, we should wait to see how it works. I would not suggest any changes before the Act is fully implemented.

The appointment of the Ombudsman as the Information Commissioner will be a new dimension to his responsibilities and resourcing will be required. The Freedom of Information Act next year will be a culture change and will give him a great deal of responsibilities. There will be a much greater focus on the Ombudsman and that will have further consequences of which I have to be conscious. New accommodation is being made available to deal with what we expect will be the requirements under the new scenario and I want to see it dealt with effectively.

We move to Vote 45 - Supplementary Estimate 1997: Increases in Remuneration and Pensions.

Deputy McDowell asked for the breakdown of the £65 million. An estimated £27 million is for the higher than projected cost of local bargaining cases. The 1997 agreement with medical consultants will cost £13 million. The PCW parity arrangement is estimated at £23 million. It is still unclear how much of this will be provided for in 1997 and, therefore, I have made allowance for the worst possible scenario. Some Departments will be able to issue moneys under this arrangement and my Department would urge that all moneys be paid as soon as possible. Unfortunately, due to the complexity of some Departments it is not possible to do this before the end of this year but I would urge them to do so as soon as possible in 1998. Nobody knows how much will be required until the end of the year but a Vote of £65 million should be enough to cover all expenses.

Can the Minister indicate what amount will come from the Departments?

I do not know. Many of the outturns will arise almost on the last day of the year. We will not know until we see what happens within each Department. A global figure of £65 million is provided to ensure anyone awaiting payment receives his entitlement and that any other demands for funds are catered for. I expect we will not require the full £65 million but it would be foolish to suggest hypothetical figures in that context because Deputies would quote the figure back to me.

If the Dáil accepts this Vote and Departments know the provision is there where is the incentive to make a saving?

One could say that but could also say that EU funding brings another element of uncertainty. In my experience there will be cost savings within Departments that will be offset, but I would be unwise to guess their amount. My job is to ensure there are enough funds available to pay pension parity and any other agreements made by the Government. I want to see those moneys paid before Christmas to the people who are due them. Rather than just waiting I want to take a positive and pro-active approach to deal with this issue. I cannot guess what will be in place but I trust there will be an honourable approach from each of the Departments to dealing with the issue.

Are there many PCW local bargaining cases likely to roll over into 1998 that do not show up in our figures?

There are a number of cases to be completed in 1998. We do not know how they will turn out but I would prefer to have agreement on them as soon as possible. These cases are in the areas of education, some health sectors, the civil service and some State bodies. The sooner they are resolved the better. The abridged Estimates contain a Vote of £128 million for increases in renegotiation of pensions for next year. There is also a provision within the Vote for next year's estimates.

In terms of the estimate of the 1997 outturn included in the abridged Estimates, does that include the sum of this figure?

The £27 million, but not the rest. The figure I gave for next year will be reduced in the revised Estimates but I do not state these figures in the expectation that all of this will be absorbed. I urge all line Departments to get their agreements finalised so we can deal with this issue. People on both sides of these discussions would benefit if they could bring them to a conclusion. I want to make sure they indicate the funding is in place.

I am trying to visualise the impact of these figures on the overall 1997 Estimates. The Minister states £27 million is included in the abridged Estimate for the outturn of 1997 and the remaining moneys are not. Is the £65 million included in the figure given on budget day for the 1997 Estimate outturn for Public Service pay or is it just £27 million?

Just the £27 million.

Will the 1997 outturn be about £30 million more?

We do not know. I made provision for the worst case scenario but I am confident we will not need it. The people we deal with have a right to expect we will not prevaricate on the availability of funding to fulfil our commitments. We will fulfil our commitments but I am not saying at this stage that the outturn will be substantially different to what was indicated on budget day.

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