Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Feb 2023

Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)

Chairman

I ask members to turn off their mobile phones. I remind them of the note in respect of privilege. They are aware of the long-standing practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

We are joined by the Minister for Finance, Deputy McGrath, and his officials. The Minister is very welcome. We are dealing with Votes 7 to 10, inclusive. I invite the Minister to make his opening statement, after which members may ask whatever questions are necessary.

I wish to acknowledge Ms Ellie Fay and Ms Jessica Ní Mhaoláin in the Public Gallery. They are very welcome to the committee. They are here with Deputy Mairéad Farrell. They can let me know what they have learned from Deputy Farrell and I will tell them whether it is good or bad.

Minister for Finance (Deputy Michael McGrath)

I thank the Cathaoirleach and committee members for the opportunity to appear to discuss the Revised Estimates for 2023. I am joined by Mr. Paul Cotter, principal officer in the finance division, and Ms Laurna Cunningham, finance officer at the Department. As Minister for Finance, I will be discussing the four votes within the finance group of Votes: Vote 7 - the Department of Finance; Vote 8 - the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General; Vote 9 - the Office of the Revenue Commissioners; and Vote 10 - the Tax Appeals Commission. I look forward to a fruitful and positive exchange.

The net funding allocation sought by the finance group of Votes for 2023 totals €535 million, which compares with a 2022 Vote group total of €497 million, an increase of €38 million, or just under 8%. The primary driver of the increase is an increased allocation for the Office of the Revenue Commissioners.

I propose to focus first on Vote 7, relating to the Department of Finance, and to give a brief overview of its structure. The Department is structured around two directorates, namely, the economic and fiscal directorate, which is programme A, and the finance and banking directorate, which is programme B. This structure remains unchanged from last year. There are also a number of support divisions which ensure the smooth operation of the Department. The costs of these support divisions are generally allocated on a 50:50 basis to each programme.

The net allocation sought for the Department of Finance Vote in 2023 is €46.4 million, of which some €11 million is provided for a fuel grant scheme for disabled drivers. The Department’s allocation provides for both administrative and non-administrative costs. The single biggest cost remains salaries and allowances, which account for €26.8 million, or 58% of the total estimate. A further €6.6 million, or 14%, is provided to cover facilities and non-pay administrative costs. There is also an allocation of €370,000 to cover the disabled drivers medical board of appeal, €537,000 for the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman and €42,000 for the credit union advisory committee. The remaining €2 million, or 4%, is provided to cover the legal, advisory and committee costs necessary to support the Department in the proactive delivery of its remit.

The most significant change from the 2022 Estimate is a recategorisation of some of support services from a 50:50 split between programmes A and B to being solely charged to programme B. Committee members will note a reduction in the 2023 Estimate for economic and fiscal policy in this regard.

The allocation for Vote 8 - the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General is applied towards a single audit and reporting programme. The Comptroller and Auditor General is an independent constitutional officer. The mission of the Comptroller and Auditor General is to provide independent assurance that public funds and resources are used in accordance with the law, managed to good effect and properly accounted for. The Comptroller and Auditor General is required by law to, among other things, issue opinions on the accounts of Departments and public bodies that are audited by him and publish reports on important matters at his discretion relating to value for money and the administration of public funds. The office assists the Comptroller and Auditor General in his statutory functions and is staffed by civil servants.

The financial audit role of the Comptroller and Auditor General covers approximately 290 sets of accounts produced by public bodies.

Together, those bodies had financial transactions with a value of more than €200 billion last year. The net allocation for this Vote in 2023 is €10.5 million, which is an increase of approximately 12.5% on 2022. The 12% increase in the Estimate for the Comptroller and Auditor General is to fund increased staffing costs, primarily due to the extension of the Building Momentum pay agreement.

Turning to Vote 9, the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, as the Irish tax and customs administration this office plays a vital role in our economy by collecting taxes and duties due to the State and also implementing customs controls. In 2022, Revenue collected a record €82.2 billion in tax receipts for the Exchequer with a further €22.3 billion collected by Revenue on behalf of other Departments and agencies. The total relative cost of administration remains low at 0.46% of net collections and Revenue continues to maintain high levels of compliance for the taxes and duties under its care and management. Revenue has continued to manage EU external borders in the wake of the UK withdrawal from the EU through its frontier management and customs functions, ensuring overall supply chain safety and security while facilitating trade. During 2022, there was a further large increase in the number of customs declarations. A total of 40.2 million declarations were processed in 2022 compared to 25.4 million in 2021, an increase of 63%. Revenue maintains its risk-based approach to managing instances of non-compliance. In circumstances where timely compliance or meaningful engagement was not forthcoming, Revenue continued to pursue those who did not meet their tax and duty obligations. In 2022, there were more than 427,000 risk management interventions carried out, with a yield of €813 million.

For 2023, Revenue has requested a net budget allocation of €473.9 million, an increase of €32.8 million on the 2022 Estimate. This is primarily due to increased pay costs as a consequence of the renewed public sector pay agreement. More than three quarters of the total budget allocation is related to payroll for an employment ceiling of 7,024 staff.

Finally, Vote 10 is the Tax Appeals Commission, TAC, which has a net budget allocation of €3.6 million, an increase of 5% on the 2022 Estimate. The 2023 Estimate is to provide for the TAC to advance its programme of modernisation and reform and to address its caseload, while also meeting its obligations as an independent civil service entity.

I wish to conclude by thanking members for their attention and I commend the 2023 Revised Estimates for the finance group of Votes to the committee. I look forward to our discussion.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. We will just start into some of the Estimates. I will focus on Vote 7, the Department of Finance. We can see that funding for travel and subsistence, which includes expenditure incurred by officers of the Minister and Minister of State, has increased by 21% or €190,000. What is the reason for the significant increase in this subhead?

Deputy Michael McGrath

I think the primary driver of that is that more meetings are now happening in person. There was a significant reduction in travel and subsistence-related costs in my Department and indeed across all Departments for two years or so during Covid-19, as the Deputy knows. Now there is more in-person travel and in-person meetings taking place and that is the main reason. There is not any other structural reason for the change in the overall cost.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

The Minister is planning to spend double what was spent last year in travel and subsistence within his Department. He is planning to spend €0.5 million more than was spent last year. Could that really be accounted for by Covid-19?

Deputy Michael McGrath

I believe it is. If the Deputy looks at the Estimate that had been provided for 2022, it was €894,000. The outturn was dramatically below the Estimate. It represents a near doubling relative to the outturn, as the Deputy said, but it is a more modest increase relative to the Estimate that was given for 2022.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

It is not modest; it is 21%. There are not many Departments that get a 21% increase in expenditure. It is far from modest.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I think it is accounted for by increased travel to European meetings, the IMF, the World Bank and more external engagement. There is an opportunity for the Government and our officials to get out there more and have more external engagement.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

What was the outturn before the pandemic?

Deputy Michael McGrath

I do not have it to hand. We can send it on.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

On premises and accommodation expenses, which provide for the maintenance, heating, lighting, furniture and fitting costs of Department buildings, the figure has increased by 15% from €166,000 to €1.25 million. What is the reason for this increase and what will this additional allocation be spent on?

Deputy Michael McGrath

It is relating to the offices and premises that the Department has and has control of. That would include, of course, the costs of the permanent representative office, the costs we have in Brussels, general maintenance, light, heat and fuel, health and safety expenses, relocation and sundry expenses. The 2023 allocation was provided to include infrastructural upgrades of The Billets facilities and canteen area, conservation, restoration and infrastructure works on 14 to 16 Upper Merrion Street, a data connectivity project for the Department's file storage facility, the next phase of the sit-stand desk roll-out and so on. Those would be the main reasons for that.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Subhead A3, which includes committees and commissions, provides for a cost for the disabled drivers' medical board of appeal, which the Minister mentioned in his opening statement, with an allocation of €370,000. This has been a disaster for those who have been waiting for decisions on appeals and has been very difficult for the board members, who resigned en masse in 2021. The committee has looked into this and we know that correspondence from the chairperson and members of the board went unanswered by the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Paschal Donohoe. A very cold attitude was taken to a very sensitive issue. For what I believe was the first time in the history of the State, although I could be corrected, it resulted in an entire board resigning because the members believed they could not carry out their functions in a way that was consistent with the needs of those with permanent and severe disabilities. We are told that the board of appeal is going to be in place soon. It is really welcome that there has been movement on this. The first round did not elicit any individuals to come forward to populate the board. However, the core underlying issues still remain. The criteria are not fit for purpose. Has the Minister given any assurances to the incoming board in respect of a different approach to this? Will we still see decisions having to be made under these very strict criteria? I am aware that officials in another Department are looking at a wider issue in terms of mobility for those with disabilities.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue, which I know is one of serious concern to those who are directly impacted. I am anxious to see progress now quickly in getting the disabled drivers medical board of appeal back up and running. I do believe that we are almost there. Garda vetting for all five candidates has recently been completed. All have been nominated by the Minister for Health and Department officials are in the process of finalising the details so that the formal appointment can take place. I expect that very shortly we will have the medical board of appeal back up and running. However, as the Deputy says, that is only one issue here.

The other issue is related but more fundamental. It is about the nature of the scheme and the review of it committed to by my predecessor, the Minister, Deputy Donohoe. The Deputy has acknowledged the work the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, and the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, have led. They agreed in autumn 2021 that the review of the scheme should be incorporated into the work of the national disability inclusion strategy transport working group. I understand that working group held a series of meetings across last year and a draft final report was considered at its final meeting on 8 December 2022. I have not yet received the report but I have discussed it with the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, and am told it will be completed, furnished to my Department and published imminently. In terms of the future of the scheme, I look forward to reviewing that report. There is a need for reform. We have all experienced that in dealing with individual cases. It remains to be seen what the report recommends.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I appreciate the Minister has not seen the report but he has had the benefit of a conversation or briefing with-----

Deputy Michael McGrath

Conversation.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

He has had a conversation with the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, on it. As the Minister mentioned, we are all aware there are problems with the criteria. The criteria need to change, and that will include people who should be included anyway. Is the Minister committed to the principle that this scheme will cost more because the rigid criteria, which have led to the entire board resigning, need to be addressed? How far we go and how we reform that is a secondary question but the Minister has overall responsibility for the scheme. Is he committed to ensuring the criteria are modified, which will make more people eligible and will, therefore, have an impact in relation to Exchequer funding?

Deputy Michael McGrath

I look at it a little differently. I do not think we start by saying it will cost more. Perhaps it will, but it could be quite a different scheme. One of the questions is around whether we are best to approach this through a grant-based scheme as opposed to a tax-based scheme. That is the first question that needs to be answered. I will not pre-empt the outcome of the report that has, I understand, been completed. I will be looking at it with an open mind. I have come across many individual cases where people, on the face of it, seem to be eligible for the support but do not get it because the criteria are rigid. You either qualify or you do not. There is no real element of discretion involved. I understand when it comes to taxation, the writing of legislation and regulations, it has to be black and white. That raises the question of whether fundamentally it is best to administer this through the tax system or through a grant-based system. I do not know if the report has recommended such a fundamental change but it may have. As soon as I get it, I will consider it promptly and engage with colleagues on it then.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I have raised that point in relation to one of the other fundamental unfairnesses in relation to the report in terms of those on lower incomes not benefitting appropriately from the scheme. The Ombudsman's report has highlighted this and case studies related to that point. We have had a board resign over inaction from the former Minister for Finance, which I would argue was driven from a cost-containment point of view. We need a different approach where we focus on the individual, who has a right to come out of their home to travel to the local shop, butcher or medical appointment and needs access to mobility.

There are two things here. There is a bit of limbo. While the board is there and appeals can be heard, there is a chance there will be reform. People will be sitting at home considering whether they should wait until they find out what the Minister will do and when he is likely to do it. The scheme does not work for them and they are considering whether to even make an appeal, given that a new scheme may be coming through. It is difficult for people. They have waited and waited. There has been no appeals board since 2021. Will the Minister give an indication of when he expects that, after considering the report, decisions will be made and clarity given to individuals with severe and permanent disabilities on the scheme going forward?

I will give an example of a disabled driver and how the scheme operates currently. This individual has a severe, permanent disability and, because of the nature of her disability, she requires vehicle modifications that can only be done in Britain. They cannot be done here. She can avail of the scheme and is not one of those not entitled to it; however, because the modifications have to be carried out in Britain, they are subject to vehicle registration tax, VRT. The benefit one can get from the scheme is €22,000. As the adaptations have to be done in Britain, they cost over €40,000; therefore, this individual still has to pay €20,000 VRT. She cannot do it, even though she is eligible for the scheme. This is not an isolated issue but one that happens quite often. Is the Minister aware of that? Is there anything he can say to this individual, who is entitled to the scheme and has met the most rigorous criteria? As the modifications have to be done in Britain and cannot be done within this State, she is left with a VRT bill above the €20,000 the scheme supports, which means it is not possible for her to pay that bill.

Deputy Michael McGrath

My priority is to get the board of appeal up and running so the backlog of appeal cases can be addressed. There are people all over the country waiting for that to happen and to have their case heard and processed. I expect the appeal board will be populated with members and start to function within weeks. That is my understanding, and I will do whatever needs to be done to make sure that happens. The people who are being appointed have now been Garda vetted. That is welcome progress.

The question of what this or a future scheme might look like is not one I can answer until I see the report which the working group of the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman, will bring forward. To be fair to my predecessor, that working group was agreed to in autumn 2021 and tasked with reviewing all Government-funded transport and mobility supports for those with a disability and with making proposals for transport and mobility solutions for those with a disability. That has been the appropriate forum for the disabled driver and disabled passenger scheme to be examined. That work has been completed and I look forward to seeing the report as soon as it is published.

I think I am aware of the case the Deputy is referring to. The difficulty for Revenue is it does not have discretion in the application of tax law or VRT. While the Deputy and I might be deeply sympathetic to the case, we cannot legislate for an individual case. We have to try to make sure the system is fair for everyone and fit for purpose. I acknowledge the need for reform. The changes may be quite fundamental in nature. That remains to be seen. I cannot give comfort that I can personally intervene and fix the way in which tax is applied to an individual taxpayer. I cannot do that, as I think the Deputy knows. If there is a way of improving the overall system that provides for cases like that, I will do all I can to make that happen.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I do not think anybody is suggesting the Minister intervene with Revenue concerning an individual taxpayer. It would be highly inappropriate to change the law for one individual.

This is about pointing out that for certain individuals with severe and permanent disabilities, even when they get into the scheme and are approved under it, it is worthless to them because the work cannot be carried out in the State. That is a problem. If the work cannot be carried out in the State, it has to be carried out in another State and, therefore, there is an additional taxation measure and cost increases because of VRT. In considering the design of the new scheme, it is very important that we get it right and there is no undue delay in respect of this. Factors like this need to be taken into account. These may be on the edge but they are life-changing for an individual. It means the difference between people not being able to get outside their own door, and being prisoners in their own homes, to having the freedom to participate in the social fabric of the local community. I raise that point because-----

Deputy Michael McGrath

I will add a quick point to my response on that issue. If there is a situation where, by its nature, the work has to be done abroad and that then triggers a tax liability on the importation of the vehicle, we have to address that when reforming this scheme or coming up with a replacement scheme. I acknowledge that. However, as the Deputy acknowledged, I cannot intervene in Revenue's decision in an individual case.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I appreciate that. On subhead A4, which deals with consultancy and other services, we see a number of such services. Some €750,000 is allocated to services for the economic and fiscal policy for 2023, which provides for research projects, economic analysis and forecasting. This is consultancy. Subhead B4 includes consultancy and other services on banking and financial services policy, for which €1.3 million is allocated. The Revenue Commissioners have been allocated €2 million for consultancy services and value for money and policy reviews, which is up from €250,000 last year.

Will the Minister clarify the total value of money the Department will spend on external consultancy in 2023? Does he have any concerns or views regarding the ability of the Department to undertake much of this analysis in-house or the value for money achieved for the taxpayer in outsourcing this work?

Deputy Michael McGrath

Under subhead A4, consultancy and other services, the estimate is €748,000 for the current year, which is less than the estimate for 2022 but is significantly higher than the projected outturn. I understand that much of that cost relates to the joint research work that is done with the ESRI. We can provide more granular detail on that, if required. Subhead B4, consultancy and other services, under the banking and financial services policy division, includes work, for example, on SME finance, mortgage arrears and personal debt.

To the Deputy's question, I have been in the Department for the past couple of months. I am very impressed with the quality of the people there. It is not a huge Department. A little more than 300 people work there. While it has a significant amount of expertise, there will undoubtedly be a need to buy or contract in external expertise on a regular basis. Very often, that can be done in partnership with other bodies, such as public bodies like the ESRI.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

We might come back to that at a later point through questions on the floor of the Dáil. We are looking at fiscal economic analysis and so on in terms of consultancy. Let us look at the issue in the context of mortgage costs. The Minister sat for many years beside me and argued about high interest rates. In 2017, he celebrated it as a great Fianna Fáil victory that mortgage interest reliefs were extended into 2018. The new variable rates at that time were 3.26%. That was what was happening in 2017, when he championed mortgage interest relief.

I am sure the Minister is aware that tens of thousands of people are currently paying interest rates in the region of 7.5%. These are people whose loans were sold to vulture funds. Many others are paying variable rates well above 4%. These will increase further when the ECB increases its interest rates in less than four weeks. These individuals were handed to the vulture funds. When we proposed legislation that sales to such funds should not happen without the consent of the individuals, the Minister and Fine Gael argued against that. These people were handed over to the vulture funds. They were given commitments that they would be no worse off. They are now worse off to the tune of thousands of euro as regards mortgage interest.

We put forward a proposal that, unlike the old mortgage interest relief scheme that paid a portion of all the interest paid, would involve paying a portion of the increased interest since June of last year. It is targeted. It should be time-bound until the end of year and have a maximum benefit of €1,500 to any individual. The Minister has completely dismissed that, despite the second face of the Minister, which was in opposition championing mortgage interest relief when people were paying half the rates of interest of those individuals whose loans are with vulture funds.

The Minister said he wrote to the Central Bank asking if it wanted the powers to cap interest rates. We know, since 2017, that it does not want those powers. Its representatives came before the committee and told us so when the Minister and I proposed legislation to give it powers to that effect. They told him they did not want the powers. Even if he gave the Central Bank those powers, it would not use them. What will the Minister for Finance do? Please do not talk about the fact that vulture funds should offer arrangements, alternatives and all the rest. These are all more expensive for the individual, which the Minister will acknowledge. If the duration or interest are extended, it means more expense for the individual.

Tens of thousands of people will pay an 8% interest rate at the end of next month. Surely, the Minister for Finance should engage with a proposal that looks at mortgage interest relief, given the fact that he celebrated it? I will remind him of what he said: "This tax relief is a very important financial support for families, particularly those struggling with high variable rate mortgages. [...] Many of these families are now juggling huge outgoings including their monthly mortgage, childcare costs and medical bills." That is what he said at the time when, as I said, variable rate agreements were at 3.26%. Where do these people stand now, given that we have a new Minister for Finance?

Deputy Michael McGrath

I acknowledge the increase in interest rates since last July is having a direct impact on mortgage holders and businesses. We have seen the cost of borrowing for governments, including Ireland's, also increase over that period.

As the Deputy knows, mortgage interest relief has been phased out. It no longer exists for mortgage holders. The debate we had in the past was about extending mortgage interest relief at a time when it was being phased out. It was also at a time when the mortgage rates being charged in Ireland were far higher, for many people, than they are today. This is not a prediction of what will happen in the future, but new mortgages have gone from, for a long time, being the second most expensive in the eurozone to now being well below the eurozone average and, indeed, being the third lowest.

The Deputy identified a particular group of customers who are at the coalface because the rates being charged before the tightening of monetary policy were in the order of 4% to 4.5%. The 3% we have seen since has been added on top. They are paying what on the face of it is a very high interest rate. I am not denying for a moment that puts many people under pressure. I hear from them too. They email me and set out their personal financial circumstances.

The issue of the application of the consumer protection code and the code of conduct on mortgage arrears is directly a matter for the Central Bank as the regulator. I have engaged directly with the Central Bank on this issue. It is actively working on it. The committee heard directly from its representatives in the past two to three weeks about the work they are doing in that regard.

I am satisfied that they are doing the work they need to do to make sure that people are looked after. The code is very clear that people need to be treated sympathetically. The lenders need to be proactive in working through the individual circumstances and they need to work with people to come up with individual solutions. That needs to be a priority. When you put forward one particular fiscal measure, in this case, mortgage interest relief, it has to be seen alongside all of the other measures that you come forward with. There is a motion in the Dáil this week on expenditure items and welfare, and there have been proposals to extend redress schemes to reopen payments to people in nursing homes and so on.

We need the Deputy’s fiscal plan. What is his overall plan for the management of the finances for this year? I, as Minister, have to account properly, come here and be questioned by the Deputy and others on every decision that week and also be accountable to the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council and others and be clear and transparent in all of the decisions that we make. As the Deputy knows, the Government is considering its response to, in particular, the measures that are due to end at the end of February. We have decisions that will have to be provided for in terms of fiscal capacity. That is what needs to be done. We have to do that in a responsible way, recognising that there are risks for the economy as well. We have a surplus and a national reserve but we have a level of corporation tax receipts that we cannot rely on. What if this year, next year or the years beyond, that €5 billion, €8 billion or €10 billion - my Department estimate - of those receipts are potentially windfall in nature and do not repeat? We might find ourselves in big trouble. I cannot make a decision on any individual measure without considering all the proposals to assist people, ensuring that we protect the public purse and taxpayers' interests and we manage the finances well. I have to see it in the broader context. The Deputy can come forward every week with a different spending or tax proposal. I do not have that luxury. I have to make decisions based on all of the asks and demands while, at the same time, having overall responsibility for managing the public finances.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Let us be clear. That is exactly why we proposed the type of proposal that we did. We are not asking for this to be recurrent or for it to last indefinitely.

Deputy Michael McGrath

What does it cost?

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Depending on the ranges, which depend on where variable interest rates will increase, it costs between €350 million to €400 million.

Deputy Michael McGrath

How long would it last?

Deputy Pearse Doherty

It will last until December, until the end of the year. It is based on a reference rate, which is June of last year. The State would absorb 30% of the portion of the increased interest since June of last year. The beneficiaries would be people who would have seen increased interest rates since June of last year, which is a result of the ECB hikes. The State would not take on all of the liability - we are not arguing for that – but would take on 30%. There is a massive shock for families. Many of these families are paying €5,000 more now in interest than they were last June. There is a responsibility on the State to try to cushion the shock.

Would it be far better if the banks did not pass on the interest rate? Of course, it would. Would it be far better if the vultures did not do it? Of course, it would. Can the Government tell the vultures to set the rates that the vultures are charging? It cannot. That is why we argued against what Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael were doing a couple of years ago, which was facilitating the sale of these loans to the vultures. We made it clear. I sat here in this chair and said there is nothing to stop the vultures from increasing interest rates. That risk is happening now, when everybody before was saying, “You will be no worse off”. There is a plan here. I understand we requested that the Parliamentary Budget Office would publish the costings - we asked it to cost this proposal. I understand from my communication from its officials that it will be published this evening. This is a sensible project.

On the redress scheme, when the Minister’s party members sat at Cabinet tables the last time they were in government, they knew there was illegal charging. That should not have happened. Of course we make the point that those individuals need to be redressed. Let me be clear about this as well. There is no doubt that the Government will have to establish a redress for people who had their disability payments taken from them and those in nursing homes and community settings who were also denied their payments. That is very clear. There is a legal entitlement for them to have that, so a fair redress scheme has to be established. Again, it is a one-off payment and it is cleaning up the mess that Fianna Fáil created the last time it was in government. Its party leader sat around a Cabinet table and was told that there was not a legal leg to stand on in this regard. We should not be in a position ten years on, where we are mopping up a scenario that Fianna Fáil should have dealt with at that time.

Let us get back to this issue, which is that people are struggling. I recognise that the Minister acknowledged the interest rates that they are paying. Of course, this has to be seen in the round. It has to be part of the cost-of-living package. The reason people are seeing interest rates at the level they are now is, in the main, because of the war in Ukraine. There are other issues that are pushing up inflation also. However, the primary driver for inflation that the ECB is trying to respond to is the illegal invasion by Putin and his armies into Ukraine. This response has to be set in that context. The same way that we need to support families with energy costs, motorists with petrol and diesel costs and social welfare recipients with cost-of-living measures, mortgage holders who are paying 7.5%, which will be 8%, also need support. Those who have seen their interest rates increase by €5,000 in the past year need to see some support to help them with the shock of these payments.

I will let the Minister respond to this. The problem is that the Minister dismissed this. He said that he is not looking at it. We put a proposal forward and the Minister is dismissing it. It is independently costed. What will the Minister do? Forget about me. He is the Minister for Finance. What will he do? These people are being fleeced and robbed. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael allowed these individuals to have their loans sold to the vultures. They were told straight out that these vultures would increase interest rate costs. Now, the Minister cries crocodile tears as people are being fleeced by those some people they handed over those loans to. He is Minister for Finance now and he has a responsibility to act. There is no point in writing a letter to the Governor of the Central Bank asking if he wants powers when, in 2017, he said does not want the powers. Even if he gets the powers, he will not use them. That is off the table. What will the Minister, in his role as Minister for Finance, do to try to assist these individuals today?

Deputy Michael McGrath

As Minister for Finance, I am absolutely entitled to engage directly with the Central Bank and tease out with its officials the respective roles of the Executive, that is, the Government, and the role of the Central Bank as regulator. That is why I raised the issues directly in person and in writing. We had an initial response from the Central Bank about its consumer protection supervisory roles and we await a full response from it.

As the Deputy knows and with his support, from Opposition, I brought in and successfully secured the enactment of legislation that ensured that these loan owners, who were not previously fully regulated, became fully regulated. It came within the ambit of all of the Central Bank powers, in terms of consumer protection, code of conduct and mortgage arrears and so on. That is a basic entitlement that every borrower has. I acknowledge there are some borrowers in this circumstance who cannot switch at the moment. There are others who can, by the way. There are others who perhaps were in arrears a number of years ago and now have a number of years consecutively of paying their loan without interruption, and thus are no longer classified a non-performing exposure and they could actually be sold. We need to see switching activity being facilitated by the mainstream banks as well to receive these customers who are able to switch away from non-bank lenders. I believe at least a portion of them are but I am not saying that all of them are.

The issue that I have is that the Deputy is giving the impression to people every week - I know he wants this to be all about me, but he is the person who offers himself as a prospective Minister for Finance - that the State can step in and fix every problem and pick up every bill.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

That is not true.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I gave a number of examples earlier on where every week the Deputy seems to be making it up as he goes along. There are new spending and taxation proposals. He never sets out what his overall plan is and how much he plans to spend across this year.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

We do every year in our alternative budget. We are not the ones taking memos-----

Deputy Michael McGrath

Deputy.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

-----talking about tax breaks for landlords in terms of what the Government dealt with last week.

Deputy Michael McGrath

That is exactly the point. The Deputy sets it out in the plans of the budget.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Every year.

Deputy Michael McGrath

But then, beyond the budget, he keeps coming forward with a whole load of new things that were not in his budget submission.

The Deputy has referred to mortgage interest relief.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

And we have shown where that can come from.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Hold on a minute, now. When the Deputy had the choice to support mortgage holders in introducing his alternative budget, he chose not to support mortgage holders despite that interest rates had started to rise and the direction of travel of ECB rates was clear and well flagged.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

We chose to get a costing done.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Could I finish? I did not interrupt the Deputy. It is a cost-free approach for the Deputy after the budget to come forward with a whole host of new measures he did not include in his alternative budget for the year. The Deputy is shaking his head because he does not want to hear that, but it is the reality. It is a free shot. He can come in every week and tell everyone he is on their side and that he will pay their bills and look after all their needs since the big, bad Government will not do so.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

What is the Minister going to do for mortgage holders? Is he going to do anything for them?

Deputy Michael McGrath

I see the social media stuff the Deputy's party is putting up.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Is he going to do anything for them?

Chairman

We are going to move on.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Seriously, is the Minister going to do anything for them?

Deputy Michael McGrath

Could I respond?

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Please do.

Deputy Michael McGrath

If the Deputy ever gets into government, there will be great fun in replaying all the social media clips of everything he said in opposition because he will not be able to deliver a fraction of what he suggested.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Is the Minister going to do anything for them?

Deputy Michael McGrath

The Deputy is not a fool. He knows that in his heart of hearts, yet he still comes up with it and gives people the impression he can step in and solve every problem.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Can I get an answer from the Minister? Is he going to do anything for these people?

Deputy Michael McGrath

In the course of his remarks, the Deputy alleged the Government was knowingly applying charges illegally to people.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

It was. There was no legal basis.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Even to this day, the Government has not been advised that it illegally charged people who had a medical card and were placed in a nursing home.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

That is not true.

Deputy Michael McGrath

That is true.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

There is public documentation that states very clearly there was no legal basis to the charges in relation to community hospitals. It is in black and white. The Ministers were aware of it.

Deputy Michael McGrath

That is not what the Deputy was referring to a while ago. Private nursing homes-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

It is.

Deputy Michael McGrath

It is not the case.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Community facilities. Does the Minister acknowledge that Ministers were aware there was no legal basis for the charges that were imposed in the settings and that disabled individuals, some profoundly so, were denied their payments? That is what happened under Fianna Fáil.

Deputy Michael McGrath

In the case of people in community facilities and so on, there was a scheme introduced, as the Deputy knows. Almost half a billion euro was paid out when it was introduced in 2005.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Those were public nursing homes; I am talking about section 39 organisations.

Deputy Michael McGrath

He was referring earlier to private ones.

Chairman

We are going to conclude the discussion. I call Deputy Mairéad Farrell.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I would really love to know whether the Minister is going to do anything for the mortgage holders.

Chairman

I call Deputy Mairéad Farrell.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Outside the Minister's budget proposals, he is going to introduce another suite of proposals that he did not include last year. Is this going to be part-----

Deputy Michael McGrath

We have to account for that, and we have to lay-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

So do I.

Deputy Michael McGrath

No, the Deputy does not.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I do.

Deputy Michael McGrath

No, the Deputy does not. He never does; he just brings forward ad hoc measures week in, week out. He does not have to account for them but I have to account-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

The Minister stated in the Dáil last week that mortgage interest relief would cost over €700 million. When the Parliamentary Budget Office, which is independent, publishes its numbers, I hope the Minister will apologise in this regard. It is a case of spin and bluster because the reality is that he is leaving these mortgage holders out to dry.

Chairman

Does Deputy Mairéad Farrell wish to ask a question?

Deputy Michael McGrath

If the Deputy recalls exactly what I said about costing, he will note it is a matter of the particular way in which mortgage interest relief is introduced.

Chairman

If so, she could please ask it.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I do not like to interrupt.

Chairman

Neither do I, but we have a timeframe we have to stick to.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I think we are doing all right with the timeframe.

I came in to ask questions about the Standards in Public Office Commission, SIPO, because we had the Minister in last week in this regard. I had questions that we agreed I could bring forward to this week. I will start off with those.

As the Minister knows, we had long discussions about the ethics review. I have been very clear about my concern. It was not that the review was a kicking-the-can-down-the-road exercise but more that it was doing something about which we knew many of the issues lay and what needed to be changed. In many ways, the review has covered what was previously raised in the Public Sector Standards Bill. That Bill was before my time here but it seems it dealt comprehensively with many of the major ethics issues. It was a Bill with one of the highest numbers of amendments obstructing it. I understand that all parties agreed with it. We regularly see issues in terms of ethics. While we discussed this subject at length in light of the lobbying review at the time in question and the matter of freedom of information, the ethics review is now being hailed as the way forward. However, my concern was always that it was in some ways not dealing with the crux of the issue. While it covered the issues that need to be addressed, we already had legislation on which we knew there was cross-party support. On the back of the ethics review, what are the Minister's next steps? Considering that the Public Sector Standards Bill indicated what is still regarded as needing change, will the Government reintroduce that? I looked at the legislative programme and did not see the legislation in it.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I thank Deputy Farrell. I acknowledge her interest in this issue and the work she has done on it over the past couple of years. As she knows, there is to be a formal transfer of functions from the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, to me in respect of these matters. I anticipate that this will happen very shortly. It needs to go to the Government. In the meantime, the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform has published the report, which the Deputy has acknowledged. People can see from it that it is a substantive piece of work, amounting to almost 90 pages of detailed analysis of the ethics framework for public office. It also charts a way forward. For as long as I will have policy responsibility for this issue, I will be determined to make progress.

The next step is the preparation of a general scheme, or the heads of a Bill. That work is now under way. I have met the staff who are actively working on it. It is very complex work but it will be done and there will be a general scheme later this year. It will benefit from pre-legislative scrutiny but will need Oireachtas support across the board because I want everyone to buy into the reforms and changes that will be needed. It will involve a new legislative framework underpinned by a set of overarching integrity principles; new specific statutory prohibitions, including on the use of insider information; strengthening disclosures requirements to improve transparency and examining whether the regime should encompass more officeholders; and strengthening SIPO, bearing in mind that we have looked back at all the recommendations it has been making in recent years; and post-term employment restrictions for elected officials or public servants that address matters not already covered by lobbying regulation and should align closely with the associated legislation. As the Deputy knows, the final Stages of the lobbying Bill will be taken in the Dáil very shortly.

The report is now published and available for everyone to examine and come to a view on. It lays out a direction of travel. The next steps are the introduction of a general scheme and engagement by this committee in pre-legislative scrutiny. I hope that will happen in the coming months.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I understanding from what the Minister is saying that he envisages introducing a new Bill.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Yes.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Given that the Government has two years left in office, or potentially less, you never know, I am concerned the Bill will not be completed. I do not understand why the Public Sector Standards Bill required so many amendments and why it took so long, even though there was cross-party support on it.

We are now looking at a new Bill. That will come before pre-legislative scrutiny in committee, which will take a further period, and despite all the issues we have had over recent years, there will be no real progress legislatively to make the amendments people have long been calling for. That is my concern. The Minister indicated the Bill will be published around October. Is that correct?

Deputy Michael McGrath

I cannot say a specific month because I have not been informed of exactly when the heads of the Bill will be ready. They will certainly be ready this year and as early as possible. I will meet my officials regularly to get updates and to ensure that all the supports are in place and that the co-ordination required across government and across offices will take place to bring forward the general scheme as quickly as possible.

To answer the Deputy's core question, there is no reason whatsoever, subject to this Dáil lasting for the next couple of years or so, that we cannot enact this legislation. That is certainly the Government's intention and I am determined we will do that.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I have serious concerns it will not be enacted, but the Minister genuinely believes it could be done before the end of this Government's term.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Absolutely. I think we have to-----

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I agree we have to but I am concerned-----

Deputy Michael McGrath

To answer the Deputy's question about the Public Sector Standards Bill, that goes back to 2015. A lot has moved on since then. As the Deputy will appreciate, the report published by my previous Department looked at the international context and the up-to-date standards in other jurisdictions. That work was important. There is certainly a need to update the 2015 Bill. The new Bill will draw from it but will not be identical to it because it will take account of the outcome of the review carried out by the officials.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

It seems to me that a quick way of dealing with it would be to use the Bill that is already there and has gone through significant pre-legislative scrutiny and to look at the amendments that were agreed to at the time. I would assume that then, if needed, it would be far quicker to amend that rather than start the process again with a new Bill. Surely that would take much more time.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I understand the Deputy's point but, to be fair, we have carried out a comprehensive review and it is important we feed the output from that review into the preparation of the legislation. I anticipate we will have the general scheme later this year. I acknowledge the committee will want to prioritise the pre-legislative scrutiny of that Bill, and I hope the full Bill can go forward to the Oireachtas as quickly as possible.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

A section 110 review was announced in the budget. This is an issue I have been interested in for some time. I tabled a parliamentary question on the matter but it did not seem as though much or any progress had been made. What is the status of that?

Deputy Michael McGrath

The terms of reference for that review are being drawn up. It is broader than section 110 reviews, as the Deputy will be aware. It also includes real estate investment trusts, REITs, for example, and looks at the wider funds issue throughout the financial service sector. The work will get under way shortly and I have asked my officials to progress it. To give the Deputy a straight answer, the review is not yet up and running. The terms of reference are being drawn up and I have asked that they be finalised as quickly as possible.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Okay. I might return to that because it is something I am interested in.

Earlier during Leaders' Questions, the Taoiseach stated the cost-of-living package would be funded in its totality from three sources, namely, the underspend on the temporary business energy support scheme, TBESS, unallocated expenditure and a windfall tax on energy providers. What is the total sum available from these three sources for the cost-of-living supports?

Deputy Michael McGrath

That work is ongoing across government. The Deputy mentioned TBESS, for example. That scheme is due to end at the end of February but the Government has to make a decision on whether to extend it. If we do so, there is a question as to whether we will need to change the criteria or the level of support. It is under active examination. Of course-----

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

On that, if the Government is considering changing the criteria, I urge the Minister to look at liquefied petroleum gas, LPG, and oil. Especially in the west, many businesses are having significant issues with that. Moreover, in the case of electricity suppliers that have left the market, butchers and businesspeople are having difficulty accessing their paper bills and, as a result, are finding it very difficult to prove the difference for TBESS. That is something the Minister might examine.

On unallocated expenditure, the figure stands at between €1.1 billion and €1.2 billion. Will the Minister outline how much of that will be needed for the Ukraine response and how much is available to address the cost-of-living crisis?

Deputy Michael McGrath

In respect of TBESS, the feedback from Revenue has been consistent in respect of oil and LPG, and I know the Deputy and other colleagues across the House, including in my party, have raised that issue. Revenue has indicated TBESS cannot accommodate oil and LPG. It is based on the metered cost of gas and electricity. The feedback on it has been consistent and clear and Revenue is recommending against the inclusion of that.

The other point the Deputy raised, about people having difficulty accessing bills where their provider has left the market-----

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I have a specific case, so I might raise it with the Minister after the meeting rather than mention it here.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Yes. I have examined all the feedback we have got in respect of TBESS but I have not seen that matter raised. If the Deputy has a case that demonstrates the point, it would be good to hear about it.

On the question about the provision we made in the budget for Covid and Ukraine, a general reserve or a contingency for the cost of living was not provided for in budget 2023, so we will have to consider how we are going to fund whatever we decide to do in the next week or so. I did not hear what the Taoiseach said in the Dáil earlier.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Surely, at this point, the Minister knows how much the Government is considering allocating in cost-of-living supports, and I am wondering what it is. He came before this committee in advance of the budget. I have been astonished every year, although it might be my naivety, that Ministers come before the committee, which is here to scrutinise matters, and are told what the budget package will be but then suddenly, over the weekend, additional money is found and is announced on the Tuesday. Will the Minister clarify how large he expects the cost-of-living package to be? It is important for openness and transparency.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I cannot do so because no decision has been made about that. Discussions are ongoing this week and will continue next week. Of course, these decisions will, ultimately, have to be made by the Cabinet.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Deputy McGrath is the Minister for Finance and Deputy Donohoe is the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. They know the ballpark estimates of how much money they are looking at. I appreciate the Minister did not hear the Taoiseach speaking earlier in the Dáil, but if the Taoiseach knows, the two Ministers definitely know about the underspend in TBESS, the unallocated expenditure and the windfall tax on energy. Surely the Minister has a ballpark figure. I am not asking him to tell me exactly what is in the package, given the Government will have to agree that, but surely he has a ballpark estimate of how large it will be. By the sounds of what the Taoiseach said earlier, he knows, so I imagine both Ministers know too.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Specific figures have not been agreed. In respect of TBESS, for example, the sum that will be available for other uses will depend on the decisions we make about the extension of the scheme and any changes to it, and lots of issues have been raised and feedback provided. That will determine how much may be available from that source at this time.

As for unallocated expenditure, we held back, as in previous years, a reserve but it is for Covid and Ukraine across this year. The Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform will provide an updated assessment following its consultation with the relevant line Departments, such as the Departments of Health and Children, Disability, Equality, Integration and Youth, as to what those costs are likely to be. That will then give information as to whether there will be any anticipated unallocated sums in that regard.

The third source is the windfall tax and the temporary solidarity contribution.

As the Deputy knows, the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications is working through all that at the moment and the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, will be bringing forward legislation to provide for it.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

That was a very good way of answering the question without giving any figures.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I cannot give a figure because there has been no decision as to what figure is involved at this point. What I would say is that-----

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

It is correct that the Ministers are meeting tomorrow to discuss a cost-of-living package. Am I right?

Deputy Michael McGrath

Yes.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Without any numbers.

Deputy Michael McGrath

What was that?

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Without being sure of the numbers.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Without any numbers whatsoever. It is crazy stuff.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I said no numbers have been decided-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Yes, but-----

Deputy Michael McGrath

-----because it falls to-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

The Minister should tell the committee about the unallocated resources.

Deputy Michael McGrath

It falls to the Cabinet to decide.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

It is for the committee to scrutinise the Minister about what is unallocated with regard to some of the moneys available.

Deputy Michael McGrath

The amount that was unallocated was published in the expenditure book. That is a published figure. That is held in-----

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

That is the €1.1 billion to €1.2 billion, am I right?

Deputy Michael McGrath

That is held in reserve and was earmarked for Covid-19 and Ukraine.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

That is the €1.1 billion to €1.2 billion. Is that correct?

Deputy Michael McGrath

I do not have that expenditure book in front of me

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

That is €1.1 billion to €1.2 billion and the Minister cannot tell us at this stage how much is going to Ukraine and how much it is going to cost.

Deputy Michael McGrath

That is in respect of costs we expect to incur for those purposes. The relevant Departments will provide updated assessments of what they think those costs will be.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

The Taoiseach was flying another flag-----

Deputy Michael McGrath

No.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

-----or was it a red herring when he told us-----

Deputy Michael McGrath

No, those are the obvious potential sources.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

They are potential sources. What other sources are potential or possible outside of those three?

Deputy Michael McGrath

It falls to the Government to consider what it wishes to do on expenditure and tax-----

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

The Minister obviously has a view.

Deputy Michael McGrath

-----and what decisions it wishes to make. Of course I have a view. We will make those decisions in the next week or so. The House will have a role with regard to taxation matters through financial resolutions that may need to be brought forward, and also legislation that will have to be brought forward to give permanent effect to any changes we wish to make. The House will, therefore, have a role and those details will be published in the normal way once decisions have been made. They have not yet been made, however.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Will the underspend in TBESS be ring-fenced for businesses?

Deputy Michael McGrath

Again, that is a decision for the Government to make. More than €30 million so far has been claimed in that regard. We are seeing more and more businesses applying now. They can claim back the previous four months. In fact, Revenue has allowed them to go all the way back to September. It is difficult to estimate how exactly how much will be drawn down for TBESS even under the existing conditions of the scheme because-----

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

The Minister said-----

Deputy Michael McGrath

-----that bill will grow over time as more businesses qualify and more businesses get around to claiming all the way back to last September. That is, therefore, a figure that will change.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

On that, the budget allocated a sum of €1.25 billion. The Minister said €30 million has already been drawn down. Obviously, officials in the Department of Finance will have done projections as to how much they think will be drawn down in totality. How much is that?

Deputy Michael McGrath

Not all of that sum identified by the Deputy is for 2023. I believe half of that was-----

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Yes, for September.

Deputy Michael McGrath

-----in 2022. Only a very small amount of that was used in 2022 but as the Deputy knows, we cannot carry forward unused current expenditure. The other half of it is pencilled in and is in the Revised Estimates volume for 2023. More than €30 million has been claimed so far but that number is increasing all the time. More and more businesses are now applying and claiming retrospectively back to September.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I have two questions on that. How much was it for 2023? I do not have the figure in front of me. How much of that €1.25 billion was for 2023? The Minister said that €30 million has been already drawn down. Obviously, there are projections with any economic considerations. What are the projections in terms of how much will be drawn down?

Deputy Michael McGrath

The projections depend on what changes we might make to the scheme if we extend it.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Okay. As it stands currently, what is the projection?

Deputy Michael McGrath

The original projection was provided by the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and was based on the knowledge and information it had with regard to energy costs. It has proven to be a high estimate based on the applications so far, however. That said, as the Deputy knows, we have seen a very significant improvement in wholesale prices. While reductions have not been transmitted to the retail level, those reductions at wholesale level did mean we have had no further increases at retail level, which were projected at a time when the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications would have done this assessment with regard to the cost of TBESS.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

What are the figures for 2023 from that €1.25 billion? That is obviously not something I have in front of me, but the Department of Finance would know that.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Approximately €350 million is the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment Vote for TBESS for 2023.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Okay, and then €30 million-----

Deputy Michael McGrath

The balance was in 2022 but that is closed out at this point.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

What is the projection if the scheme remains as is in terms of the figures?

Deputy Michael McGrath

As things stand, the scheme is due to close at the end of February until the Government makes another decision.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

The Minister did say there has been an increase in the number of recent applications.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Yes.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

That is apart from that €30 million; the €30 million is already gone. Then there is, say, the extra €620,000-----

Deputy Michael McGrath

Yes, I do not have-----

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

What are the projections for that?

Deputy Michael McGrath

I do not have a specific figure for what we estimate, based on the current run rate, that it will be. It is fair to say that if the conditions do not change and if we do not extend it, it will be a long way short of the budgetary provision that was made. That is self-evident.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Would it be possible to provide those figures? Surely the Estimates have been done. It is fair enough if the Minister does not have them in front of him. Obviously, that work has been done.

Deputy Michael McGrath

We could provide a projection but that is all it would be. We do not know how many businesses will now apply and how many will go back to last September, because they are still eligible for that.

Chairman

The Deputy's time is up.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Is my time up? I am only beginning. I will quickly go back to section 110, which is an issue I have been raising for a very long time. To be perfectly honest, my concern is that it will fall off the radar. We have seen it being raised repeatedly in the media in recent times. We saw it twice - there was a housing issue and then there was an issue with planes. My concern is that it will fall under the radar. When does the Minister expect the report to come back? Another issue I raised was around the golden visas, as they are called. That was in the news again this morning. When does the Minister expect that report to be done?

Deputy Michael McGrath

As the Deputy will know, this arose in the context of the Commission on Taxation and Welfare and the commentary it made in the report. The Minister, Deputy Donohoe, made a commitment in his budget day speech that there would be a review of the REITs; the Irish real estate fund, IREF; the section 110s; and so on. The terms of reference for that are now being finalised. I cannot give the Deputy a specific date but I hope we will be back with a report in that regard within a number of months. I have asked that it be done as quickly as possible. It will certainly commence shortly.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I thank the Chairman for the time. I must leave to go to another committee now, unfortunately.

Chairman

I thank the Deputy. I understand that Deputies Jim O'Callaghan and Barry are not available even though they have put down their names. Would the Minister be able to give us the figures on the bank bailout and the money that has been refunded?

Deputy Michael McGrath

Is the Chairman referring to the overall account?

Chairman

Yes. We bailed out the banks. How much of that money have we got back from each of the banks?

Deputy Michael McGrath

I only have a certain amount of information in front of me. I am not sure I have the total picture the Deputy is looking for but we can certainly provide it.

Chairman

The Minister might send it on to us.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Yes, that is all available.

Chairman

A sum of €370,000 was allocated to the banking division in 2023 for various consultancy projects related to SME finance crisis simulation and general banking research. Would any of that banking research be of value to the committee given that we deal with the banks on a regular basis? I refer in particular to information the Minister might have regarding community banking.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I will revert to the Chairman's initial question and give him partial information, but we will write to the committee with a full statement of account regarding the capitalisation that was invested and the amount we have received back at this stage. A total of €29.4 billion was invested in AIB, Bank of Ireland and Permanent TSB over the period from 2009 to 2011. To date, approximately €21.1 billion has been recovered in cash by way of disposals, investment income and liability guarantee fees.

The remaining investments in the banks are currently valued at about €6.5 billion leaving a gap of about €1.8 billion. Taking AIB, Bank of Ireland, Permanent TSB and combining what we have received in cash so far and the value of the shares that we continue to hold in relation to both AIB and Permanent TSB the shortfall is some €1.8 billion. Of course, Anglo Irish Bank investment is an entirely different story.

Chairman

Will the Minister be able to give us figures on that?

Deputy Michael McGrath

Yes, of course. I will give a full breakdown.

Chairman

Will the amount of money that we put into the banks be recouped in full? The Minister might include that in the figures he gives us. He is saying that €21.1 billion was recovered and then he referred to the value of the shares in the banks. What I am trying to establish is, out of the amount of money that we gave them during the crash, how much of that money, forgetting the shares, will we get back?

Deputy Michael McGrath

We will not get the Anglo money back. That is self evident. The figures I gave there relate to the other three banks. It depends on the strategy for the disposal of shares and what the value of the shares is, if and when they are disposed. Based on today's value and the cash received to date, the shortfall is under €2 billion.

Chairman

But those shares have nothing to do with the overall amount that was given to the bank. We gave the three banks €29.4 billion.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Yes.

Chairman

And forgetting the value of the shares -----

Deputy Michael McGrath

Well, we got shares in return.

Chairman

It is that analysis or that up-to-date picture that I was looking for. I am quite happy to wait until the Minister sends us on those exact figures.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Sure.

Chairman

Returning to the second question about money allocated for consultancy to the SME finance and banking research, was any work done on the public banking model, such as Sparkassen bank? I know a report was made available previously but efforts continue to bring competition to the market and I feel that community banking is one such model that might work here.

Deputy Michael McGrath

The Department, under the previous Minister, Deputy Donohoe, completed a comprehensive retail banking review which looked at the competitive landscape and different models. It also outlined the important role that An Post and the credit union sector play in providing access to financial services across the State but there is no ongoing work on the community banking model that I think the Chairman is referring to.

Chairman

It is included in the programme for Government, is it not, that we would look at the structure and see if it was possible to create that type of market here even if we were to use the credit unions? Again, it is something that we can come back to.

Deputy Michael McGrath

It was included as part of the retail banking review. I am happy to come back to the Deputy on it.

Chairman

Okay. The shareholding and financial advisory division, SFAD, allocation is to cover the cost of the restructure of the banking system related to litigation which remains ongoing. What litigation? Is it to do with Anglo, IBRC or what?

Deputy Michael McGrath

IBRC.

Chairman

Okay. On page 23 of 33 there is a big increase in the motor vehicles and equipment maintenance figures. In 2022, it was €5,375,000 of an outturn. By 2023, it has allocated €11,562,000.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Yes, that is right. I think the primary reason for that is the purchase of a Revenue cutter, which is a boat, apparently, for customs purposes.

Chairman

Okay. That is fine. Has Revenue sufficient numbers to monitor what is going on between the North and South of the island, such as in relation to the illegal importing of coal? I asked that of the Chairman of Revenue. It is causing problems for a lot of the coal merchants who are under pressure anyway. I wondered how many prosecutions there have been of those trading illegally in this type of fuel and across the Border. Will the Minister provide us with a note on that, too?

Deputy Michael McGrath

I certainly will. That is not a problem. I believe the Revenue Commissioners are adequately resourced. Certainly, since I came into this office, no resource issues have been raised with me. We will get the specific details on prosecutions and so on for the Chairman.

Chairman

Finally, I said this to Deputy Donohoe when he was Minister for Finance and I want to say the same to the Minister in relation to his meetings with the banks. EBS tied agents is something that arises here regularly. I understand that mediation is ongoing there but they are not making that much ground, I am told. I would hope the Minister would encourage the Minister to use every process that they can to deal with that long-outstanding issue and bring it to a close. Also, that in the Minister's engagement with the banks and Financial Service Pensions Ombudsman that he would encourage them to bring to a conclusion any of the cases that have not been dealt with around the tracker mortgages. I understand there are quite a few. Every effort should be made to close that chapter as soon as possible because it affects people, their houses and lives. It is important for the Government to keep the banks reminded that that is the expectation of the Government.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I am, of course, familiar with the issue of the EBS tied agents from my previous work on this committee. AIB has advised my Department that an agreed mediation process, which the Chairman mentioned, has been put in place in which all parties, the bank, the 16 former EBS tied agents, the third-party adviser and the mediator are engaged. I am not sure if the name of the mediator is public but the Chairman probably has it. There is a third-party adviser acting on behalf of the tied agents. The independent mediator has been engaged since July of last year. The process is ongoing and engagement continues to explore possible resolutions that are acceptable to both sides. I am told that AIB is committed to the process to attempt to reach a resolution with these parties as quickly as possible. The Chairman having raised it, I will make an inquiry. I cannot interfere in the mediation process obviously and we will let it take its course but I will let it be known that I have an interest in the issue and we will see what the update is. The Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman is independent in the performance of the functions there but my Department, at official level, will inquire in relation to the progress in coming to a final view on the outstanding tracker-related cases.

Chairman

I appreciate that the Minister cannot intervene on any of those issues. It is to keep them on the agenda.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Yes.

Chairman

And to let them know that the Government is anxious that they would conclude on these issues as soon as possible.

Deputy Michael McGrath

We will do that, yes.

Chairman

I would appreciate if the Minster would. We are joined by officials from the office of EU Commissioner, Mairead McGuinness. They are all very welcome. I tried to keep it going as long as I could because I knew they were coming but the Minister was too efficient and had the figures at the top of his head and easily able to answer. So I am sorry that we are coming to conclude the meeting but they are very welcome here and I hope that their visit is successful in whatever aspects they are dealing with from the Commission. I am sure the Minister will join me in that.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Absolutely. They are all very welcome. I met Commissioner McGuinness during the week in Brussels, just back after two days of Eurogroup and Economic and Financial Affairs Council, ECOFIN. The Commissioner, and I am sure many of our visitors, have very busy legislative files programmes.

We got a very good update from the Commissioner in that regard. Our guests are very welcome. I am delighted to see them here and I thank them for their ongoing work.

Chairman

They should keep the Minister on his toes when he goes over there, just to keep him sharp and alert.