Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 31 Jan 2024

Vote 43 – Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Damien English)

Apologies have been received from Deputies Doherty and Matthews.

I welcome members and viewers, who may be watching our proceedings on Oireachtas TV, to the public session of the Oireachtas Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that the members must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit, namely Leinster House, and-or the convention centre in order to participate in the meeting. I cannot permit a member to participate when not adhering to this constitutional requirement.

The Dáil ordered that the Revised Estimates for public services in respect of the following Votes to be referred to the select committee for consideration: Votes 11, 12, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19, 29 and 43. Members are asked to note that the Revised Estimate for Vote 13 will be dealt with at a later separate session at 3.30 p.m.

I welcome the Minster for public expenditure and reform, Deputy Donohoe, and the Minister of State the Department, Deputy Ossian Smyth, and their officials today. I thank them for their time. Members will have received the briefing document provided by the Department, which was circulated in advance. I thank the officials for providing them in a timely manner.

The purpose of today's meeting is to consider the Revised Estimates and the performance information regarding the outputs and the impacts of programmes for expenditure. The programme-based structure of the Estimates should allow the committee to focus on what the Department has committed to achieving in terms of actual outputs and outcomes, consider whether the performance targets included in the Estimates represent a sufficiently completed description of the services provided by the Department and whether those targets strike the right balance in terms of the needs of society, and consider whether the information required by the Department makes clear how the moneys available are allocated between services and whether these allocations are the most appropriate in the circumstances.

I call on the Minister to make his opening statement.

Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform (Deputy Paschal Donohoe)

I am pleased to be here today to present the 2024 Estimates for my Department’s group of Votes. I am joined by the Minister of State with responsibility for public procurement and eGovernment, Deputy Ossian Smyth. There are ten Votes under the public expenditure, national development plan delivery and reform Vote group: Vote 11 – Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform; Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances, which covers Civil Service pensions; Votes for a number of offices under the aegis of my Department, including the State Laboratory - Vote 14, the Public Appointments Service - Vote 17, the National Shared Services Office, Vote 18, and the Office of the Ombudsman, Vote 19; Vote 15 - Secret Service; Vote 39 - the Office of Government Procurement; and Vote 43 - the Office of the Chief Government Information Officer. The Minister of State, Deputy O’Donovan, will present the Revised Estimate for the Office of Public Works to the committee following this session.

On the remaining Votes under the group which are the subject of this meeting, the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, is happy to address questions relating to the Office of Government Procurement and the Office of the Chief Government Information Officer, and I will address questions regarding the other Votes.

In an overall context, the 2024 total gross Estimate for the PER group of Votes, comprising nine distinct Votes, is €1.14 billion, an increase of 5.6% on the 2023 allocation. The overall gross figure for 2024 is compared to €1.08 billion in 2023, inclusive of Supplementary Estimates. This is largely driven by three main factors: an increased Estimate provision to Vote 12, Superannuation and Retired Allowances; targeted increases to enable the delivery of essential services; and additional salary costs associated with the new public service pay agreement.

Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform - aims to drive the delivery of better public services, living standards and infrastructure for the people of Ireland by enhancing governance, building capacity and delivering effectively. For 2024, the gross Estimate is €59.4 million and €56.5 million in net terms. This is an increase of €5.1 million over the 2023 allocation. The additional funding requirement is primarily driven by three factors in particular: an increase in the grant to the Institute of Public Administration to support the transfer of OneLearning and senior public service training functions from the Department to the IPA and allowing for a significant expansion of OneLearning’s activities across the wider public service; increased grant funding to the ESRI to support its important work; and an increase in the EU bodies technical assistance grant in line with the significant EU programmes now in operation, such as the Brexit Adjustment Reserve and the National Recovery and Resilience Plan, which together have a value in excess of €2 billion.

Vote 12 – Superannuation and Retired Allowances - provides for pension and retirement lump sum costs for civil servants, including prison officers, and pension payments for dependents. Year on year variation in expenditure on this Vote is primarily driven by the number of individuals who will opt to retire before reaching their compulsory retirement age, and whose years of service and grade or pay level are variable and uncertain.

The gross Estimate of €869.6 million I am proposing today, represents an increase of €42 million, or 5.1%, on the 2023 gross Estimate. This increase reflects the higher number of pensioners on the fortnightly pension payroll. Other bodies under the aegis of the Department, such as the Public Appointments Service, PAS, the National Shared Services Office and the State Laboratory, provide important services to large numbers of clients across the civil and public service.

Vote 14 is for the State Laboratory. It provides a high quality, innovative and responsive chemical analysis and advisory service to Government Departments and offices. The 2024 Estimate will provide €14.8 million in gross funding and €13.5 million in net terms. This allocation will facilitate the State Laboratory to respond to the increased demand for post-mortem forensic toxicology testing by redesigning the service, implementing efficiencies and training new staff; introduce new methods of analysis to support the introduction of the new European fiscal fuel marker; and develop testing capacity for the analysis of food and feed samples to support the national risk-based control plan, to enable Ireland to comply with new EU legislation and to support the Food Vision 2030 strategy.

Vote 17 is for the Public Appointments Service, PAS. It is the key provider of recruitment and selection services across the civil and wider public service. The 2024 Estimate proposes funding of €23.6 million in gross terms and €23.4 million in net terms for the Vote. This will allow PAS to continue to source high quality candidates for positions in the civil and public service across over 600 recruitment campaigns and to manage the attraction and assessment of candidates for appointment to State boards in line with the agreed guidelines.

A key aim of PAS in 2024 will be to focus on attracting and retaining a diversity of people to the public service through delivering its equality, diversity and inclusion strategy and supporting initiatives.

The National Shared Services Office, NSSO, has played an important role in Vote 18 in the reform of public services, namely through the delivery of HR services and payroll services to clients across the civil and public service. It is also leading its largest transformation programme to date, the financial management shared services programme. The Estimate is €79.6 million in gross terms and €72.6 million net. It will enable the continued provision of HR services, payroll services and finance shared services. Under the newly established transformation office and business transformation and design team, one of the key objectives of the NSSO in 2024 will be to deliver greater efficiency and integration of services through a number of transformation projects, including in relation to financial shared services.

Vote 19 is for the Office of the Ombudsman. It provides for a number of different bodies, including the Office of the Ombudsman, the Office of the Commission for Public Service Appointments, the Office of the Protected Disclosures Commissioner, the Standards in Public Office Commission, the Office of the Information Commissioner and the Office of the Commissioner for Environmental Information. The Estimate proposes an allocation of just under €15 million in gross terms and some €14.5 million in net terms across its programmes. This will provide an increase of 8% over the 2023 allocation.

Vote 39 is for the Office of Government Procurement, OGP, which is a key element of our public service reform agenda. The State procures goods, services and works that cost in the region of €18.5 billion each year. In that context, it is essential that public services operate in a co-ordinated and efficient way to deliver Government’s objectives and enable better, sustainable and more transparent public procurement. The Estimate of €22.3 million in 2024 would allow the OGP to continue to support clients in availing of central solutions, to develop a digital strategy and implementation road map, to develop and enhance the functionality of eTenders, and to agree an OGP-specific procurement competency framework.

Vote 43 is for the Office of the Government Chief Information Officer, OGCIO. This office drives the Government’s digital agenda across the public service. Working collaboratively, it develops and delivers pan-public service digital platforms, making Ireland an exemplar in the delivery of high quality digital public services. In addition, it provides a suite of common applications, services and supports to Government Departments and agencies under its build to share initiative and is currently in the process of engaging with prospective client public bodies that seek to on-board during 2023.

The Estimate is €53 million, a 16.8% increase on 2023. This includes a proposed allocation of €14 million for the digital transformation fund. This fund will allow the OGCIO and the public service transformation team in my Department to increase the focus on delivery of citizen-facing digital services under the life events programme. The programme will focus on assisting at scale the roll-out of new digital government solutions in line with Connecting Government 2030, Better Public Services - Public Service Transformation 2030, and Harnessing Digital: The Digital Ireland Framework. I would like to acknowledge the great work the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, is doing with regard to these projects.

I am happy to present the 2024 Estimates for my Department’s group, approval of which will allow the individual Votes to continue to meet their responsibilities and deliver essential services. I am happy, as is the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, to answer any questions members may have.

Deputy John McGuinness took the Chair.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank the Minister and welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth. The Minister lists under the main policy achievements the update of the public spending code, which has now been replaced with the infrastructure guidelines that were published before Christmas. I have some concerns about the changes to the oversight of the major capital projects but today I would like to focus on the application of the public sector spending code by individual Departments for capital spending below the €200 million threshold for classification as major capital projects. Page 2 of the recently published infrastructure guidelines states that these recommendations reflect best practice in project development. It is the responsibility of the Accounting Officer of the Department funding the project to ensure these guidelines are adopted. Will the Minister clarify if Departments and Accounting Officers are required to adopt the guidelines or outline how much discretion they have to deviate from the guidelines? For example, could the Minister for housing choose to streamline and simplify the four-stage approval process?

I am trying to clarify where the decision-making power lies. When my colleague, Deputy Eoin Ó Broin, and others raised this with the Minister for housing, he said his hands were tied by the public sector spending code. The infrastructure guidelines published before Christmas are a reformed version of the public sector spending code. When and how will these reforms translate into reforms in individual Departments? When we look at housing and the application of the public spending code for what are not complex projects, what will the implication be in practical terms for the new infrastructure guidelines for the process for delivering housing? For example, we do not need to put forward a business case as to why we need to construct social or affordable housing. Is that within the discretion of the Minister for housing or is it in the Minister, Deputy Donohoe's, Department? I am trying to get clarity about where the responsibilities are.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I thank Deputy Conway-Walsh for her questions. I think she is making two different points within that, which I am sure we will engage on in a moment. The first is in regard to the approval of projects and the second is about the process for projects of a certain level. With regard to the approval of projects, what she said in her summary in the early part of her question is correct. We have infrastructure guidelines that were published in December which took effect via circular on 1 January of this year. For projects below €200 million, they ascribe a higher level of responsibility to the Accounting Officer within a Department to ensure that projects are in line with the public spending code. We are in the very early days of that being implemented, literally. Through the infrastructure guidelines that have been issued, we provide clarification regarding who is doing what, and guidance on how projects should be evaluated. As we are in the very early days of that being implemented, I cannot at this point give the Deputy an example of how it has changed actual projects. We are only a few weeks in.

The feedback I have got about it is that the impact will probably be largest in the Department of Health, because it flagged to me that it has a larger cohort of projects at hospitals that are below the €200 million threshold. It believes the implementation of these guidelines has the ability to speed up agreement on those projects. If they are above €200 million, there is a different approach to it, where my Department plays a more central role.

The Deputy asked a question about process. The four-stage process, as I recall, has aspects that impact where we are with procurement and how projects are tendered. There are issues that need to be considered regarding the consistency of any change in those four different stages and continued implementation of our procurement guidelines. I am not aware of any constraints holding up further changes in that four-stage process. My understanding is that earlier in the lifetime of this Government, ways were found to streamline and speed up that process.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank the Minister for the clarification. What would it mean in practical terms for the delivery of housing?

I am aware of 30 housing projects in Mayo that are going through the four-stage process. That might sound promising on the face of it, but we know that it usually takes years for projects to get on site and under construction. Will the changes enable Mayo County Council to conduct a single preliminary assessment or business case in respect of all projects brought forward in a year?

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

Overall, we are reducing the number of stages in that process from, I believe, five to three. The difference will mainly be one of time and being able to move projects of a certain scale forward faster. Regarding the Deputy’s particular question about Mayo County Council, I am not familiar with the individual projects that she is referring to, but I imagine that they are the kinds of project that the Department of housing is well used to evaluating and approving. I hope that these changes will speed up that process.

I do not need to tell the Deputy that, while a project can be approved after a local authority or the Government decides to proceed with it, we frequently have delays and issues in the tendering process due to companies’ availability to do the work. This causes communities and public representatives a great deal of dissatisfaction. I only offer that as a general point. I do not know if it is relevant to the particular issue or projects the Deputy is raising.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Some of it would be. Where a contractor who was going to take up a job has pulled out because of construction inflation and affordability issues, is a list kept whereby the next preferred contractor is offered the contract or must we go right back to the start again?

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

There is not a general overall list. I will defer to the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, on this question. He might give the Deputy the accurate answer about what this means for a particular process.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

Where there have been a number of bids for a contract and the person who wins the contract does not go ahead with it, the project cannot automatically transfer some months later to the person who was second in line. That would be considered unfair to the other bidders because the situation may have changed in the interim. Unfortunately, the contract needs to go out for a full retender. This is a general problem, although I could stand corrected on that.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

It is a serious problem. Our most recent project is in Newport. A development was planned but the main contractor has pulled out. We have to go right back to the start again. I can see such a situation occurring in other instances as well because the profit margins are not sufficient for the developer to proceed. Are we tied to a project having to go back to the very beginning of the procurement process?

Deputy Ossian Smyth

We have to follow national law and European law. Approximately a year and a half ago, a general problem emerged when inflation appeared where we had never had inflation before, particularly in certain subindices. Suddenly, the price of wood, concrete or steel would go through the roof. We reached a point where it looked like certain projects would not go ahead, and there was a feeling that our capital projects were in danger. It is because of that that we introduced a new scheme whereby there was a greater sharing of the inflationary risk between the State buyer and the seller such that the entire risk of price increases would not transfer to the contractors and leave them unable to deliver the projects without going bust. We had a rebalancing of risk sharing. Most of the risk is still with the seller – the contractor – but some of it has been taken on by the State. We have also introduced a new form of contract that is linked directly with the inflationary subindices. A contractor bids at a certain price while taking into account what will happen if the price of steel, concrete or wood increases. By doing this, we have managed to get our capital projects back on track.

If the Deputy has a specific example of a contract for social housing or general housing in Mayo that went wrong, I would be happy to look into the matter for her.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank the Minister of State.

I wish to ask about the Civil Service blended working framework, which the Minister lists as one of his main achievements. The Government has mandated public sector employers to move to 20% remote working. The intention of that policy was to support individual Departments in developing their own remote working policies. Has the 20% target been reached across the Civil Service? Is the target an average? How is it being measured and monitored by the Department of public expenditure? What kind of oversight role does the Department have in ensuring that other Departments’ remote working policies align with the framework set out by it? How are the Minister and his Department ensuring the same performance and standards despite the shift towards greater levels of remote working? It has considerable potential to reduce the number of hours workers have to spend commuting and take pressure off our transport infrastructure, but I have been contacted by constituents who feel it is harder than ever to get through to public sector workers in public-facing roles, for example, those answering telephones. How are we ensuring that standards are being met when people are working remotely and that there is some kind of uniformity? Are we measuring productivity, who is doing well and whether there are issues that we need to address? Obviously, not everything lends itself efficiently to remote working.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

In March 2022, we launched an overall blended working policy framework for the Civil Service. Since then, particularly over the past 12 months, the policy has been rolled out to individual Departments and other State bodies. The target was that, a year after its implementation – we are approaching that point now – we would revert to the Government and collate and review figures on our Departments’ key performance indicators and outputs. That work is under way. My officials are engaging with Departments to form a view on what impact this is having on the delivery of some of the latter’s targets. I am hearing mixed views from, for example, Oireachtas colleagues and my engagements in my constituency. I get the sense that a number of Departments – I will not name which, as I need to get the data first – and State bodies have managed to change seamlessly. They tend to be organisations that were much further down the road in the roll-out of a digital approach to their work. However, I am getting feedback from Members of the Oireachtas that there are some public services that they feel are being compromised. The work I mentioned is under way. I hope that, before the end of the first half of this year, we will quantifiably have a better sense of where performance stands.

We also have to be conscious of the importance of these policies from an employer competitiveness point of view. Maybe this will change in the time ahead, but over the past two years, we have been in a very hot labour market. From the point of view of the retention of staff and recruitment of new civil servants, we have needed to have a blended offering in terms of where work is done.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I completely agree with that, not least because I am from a rural area. It will enable people to work part of the week remotely for all kinds of different reasons. I am happy we are measuring and doing a continuous evaluation of it. Those results will be interesting. Then, if we need to, we can make adjustments or whatever at an earlier stage. If we do that, we can get this right. As the Minister said, it is the way forward, particularly in a competitive labour environment.

On public procurement and Vote 39, the committee heard recently from the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, on the issue of bid rigging in public procurement contracts. There have been a number of high-profile public cases in Europe that have been discussed. The CCPC repeatedly stated that despite the lack of prosecutions, it believes bid rigging on public contracts is likely to be taking place in Ireland and could cost the public purse hundreds of millions of euro a year. The CCPC raised the need to begin collecting and analysing all of the public procurement data in a systematic way to detect and deter that bid rigging. This was called for by the former head the CCPC in 2016. It was also recommended in the Hamilton in 2020. Are there any plans in place to begin collecting and sharing that data with the CCPC in 2024 to ensure that public money is being protected against bid rigging?

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I understand from speaking to the CCPC that sometimes it strongly suspects some form of collusion is going on without being able to get the evidence together. I asked the OGP this year to collaborate more strongly with the CCPC on this and take the data it is gathering and perform analysis on it to look for the patterns that would indicate that type of collusive behaviour. The OGP has been working carefully with equivalent procurement bodies in other European countries and asking them for their help on how they detect bid rigging. However, I think it will come down to data analysis and working with the CCPC's specific experience and gut feelings about where collusion is happening. Certainly, it is a form of theft from the public purse if bidders for a particular contract are managing to extract higher prices from the State.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

The responsibility to have the raw data and have it analysed lies in this room, so I am pleased it is happening.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I agree.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

There are patterns that, without even having the data, would raise my curiosity around shifting of things-----

Deputy Ossian Smyth

If the Deputy has specific suspicions about collusion in particular areas, I invite her to talk to the OGP about them.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Obviously, we need the data to be able to have the evidence to be able to say what is happening because people are clever and spend a whole lot of money to try to get around the system, if you like.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

This is taken very seriously. For example, in the allocation of spectrum licences for mobile phone services, wireless broadband and so on, there is a great risk that if precautions are not taken, there could be collusion between the bidders. It has been studied in great detail and much work is done on it. It is a form of revenue protection and fraud avoidance.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I will leave it at that.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire agus leis an Aire Stáit as teacht os comhair an choiste inniu agus as ucht na cuir i láthair. I wish to return to an issue I discussed with the Minister on his last visit to the committee, and that is the issue of public procurement and national infrastructure. In many areas, there are significant delays and cost overruns. The Minister and Minister of State will accept that public infrastructure is of real importance to people’s lives, whether it is transport, health, housing and so on. These are the infrastructures on which we depend on a daily basis. Timely delivery of these are exceptionally important for citizens.

The Irish Government Economic and Evaluation Service wrote a report at the start of the month. In that report, it warned of delusional optimism which results in delays and budget overruns in respect of mega projects, as it is termed there. It said there is an international and a national example of this. It stated there is a culture of underestimating in advance the time and cost it would take, and that was leading to the other side of the experience of the overruns and time delays as well.

Could the Minister talk through what is being done to prevent that happening and make sure projects are delivered on time and in budget? We are told that the national children’s hospital will be opened in 2025. It is estimated that the cost will be above €2 billion. The Taoiseach, who is leader of the Minister’s party, stated that, short of a meteor hitting it, the hospital would be open by 2020 at a cost of €700 million. In the context of the Government and public services, does the phrase “delusional and over-optimistic” relate to those types of overruns? I can think of many other examples as well. For example, the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman, promised 700 rapid-builds in June 2022. The majority of those have not been built yet. About €300 million has been spent on metro north but not a shovel has been put into the ground. The people of Midleton have had their livelihoods severely impacted during the recent floods. The process started for that project back in 2015. The talk is there may be a planning application going in at the end of this year. How do we make sure we get these important projects delivered faster?

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I am well familiar the lessons and learnings we have from the national children’s hospital. That is why the evaluation approach for so-called mega projects has changed fundamentally. It has changed in two different areas. The first is the costs that we publish for larger projects include a larger recognition of the cost of the risks and how, if the risks were to materialise, it could impact on what the final cost will be. The best example of that is the way we publicly handled the communication of the decision on the national broadband plan, where we published a range of costs and outlined the possible different factors that would influence those costs. The reality is that no matter how big the client is - in this case, the State – issues can still arise in a tendering process and in the construction of projects that, at times, we are not able to influence. What happened in the past couple of years is the best example of that. We had a wide variety of projects that were being tendered for. Cost-price inflation kicked in in a way that nobody could have anticipated. That, in turn, has impacted on the cost of those projects. I would not be getting any praise from the Oireachtas if I came here and told the committee we cancelled a whole array of projects due to cost-price inflation. The Deputy would not praise me for doing that. Instead, we have had to find ways to manage that cost and, on occasion, support Departments to deliver projects that cost more than the State wants. The specific change that has happened is, first, the publication of a variation of costs and, second, the involvement of outside bodies and experts through the major project evaluation groups to give back to Government and the State views on the costs and assumptions we have about projects.

The Deputy referred to the metro north project. The State went bankrupt for most of the intervening period of the metro north. Thank God, things have been better in recent years. I vividly remember the reason the metro north was suspended and eventually that version of it did not happen. We could not afford to make it happen.

The lesson I learned from that was, one, not to go insolvent and, two, to have public projects that have planning permission so when more money is available, we are able to do them.

The Deputy mentioned Midleton. The Minister of State, Deputy O'Donovan, will be before the committee this afternoon. He will speak to that project more than I can. The Deputy will be aware of the environmental legislation that groups and stakeholders in our country believe is very important, which it is from their point of view, but has led to the delay of projects the Government and local communities want delivered. I am again certain that if the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, and I had looked to constrain or change that legislation or diminish people's right to give a view on or object to projects, we would no doubt be accused of undermining the ability of people to give a view on projects they believe will impact on the environment. It is about trying to get that balance right while accepting this is very frustrating to communities that want to see projects delivered.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I agree there needs to be a balance between all those things. I might be an unusual voice in saying that, sometimes in this country, the perfect becomes the enemy of the good in all these aspects. We have to realise that we need to be practical and have common sense to get projects moving.

The other issue the Minister did not mention is internal deficiencies in the whole process. One of those internal deficiencies, for example, is the 22,000 homes that are currently stuck in the planning process in An Bord Pleanála. Extra staff have been assigned to that body, which is good news. It is to be hoped that will relieve the blockage. Far more workplace planning needs to be carried out by the State to make sure we have the necessary staff at planning process level throughout the country, be that in local authorities or Departments.

There is also the issue of accountability, which is significant. I always say let us imagine a country where there was a penalty for people who did not fulfil their contract of employment and the transformative effect that would have on delivery of public services and different systems within the State. We do not have that, unfortunately. I think of the RTÉ board, which is topical, the members of which did not do their due diligence or did not make a decision to sign off on Toy Show The Musical and did not do their job as a board in that regard. They are still in their roles and there is no accountability other than potentially answering questions at a committee. It is important to realise that answering questions is not accountability. We should fix the internal deficiencies of the State in pushing projects through and inject some accountability into processes, where there is actually a cost for people not doing their jobs in delivering these projects. That is also important.

I will also raise the issue of waste. I recently put in a parliamentary question to the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, on the procurement made to deal with the current migrant and immigration situation. At the start of 2023, I questioned the Minister on how many buildings the Department had purchased for the purpose of housing migrants. At that stage, 20 buildings had been purchased, one of which was in use. I put in the same question at the start of this year. Thirty-seven buildings had been purchased and one is still in use. If you are a citizen of this country who is struggling with the cost of living and all the difficulties of that, there is a frustration that money is being spent by the Government on capital projects, for worthy reasons, yet the answer to the parliamentary question I got back from the Minister is that the Department is looking for systems to repurpose these buildings. The Government has dozens if not hundreds of empty buildings throughout the country. The HSE has a couple of hundred empty buildings and the OPW has nearly 100 empty buildings. It feels like we are not sweating the assets, especially when those assets cost significant money. The Minister might speak to that.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

The Deputy recognised the very big change we made in the resourcing of An Bord Pleanála. I met its chairman and new chief executive, and members of his management team, last Thursday morning. We have increased from 40% to 50% the ability of An Bord Pleanála to hire people. Later in the year, that will lead to an even bigger increase in the number of staff working there, which will have a big impact on the output of its planning decisions. It is important to also acknowledge that the planning applications in An Bord Pleanála which, to use the Deputy's phrase, are currently stuck there are not just due to the fact there might not be enough staff in place to process them at the speed we want but because people have exercised their democratic right to object to them. That has a consequence. It takes longer to evaluate and give an answer to projects, in particular, big infrastructure projects. Nonetheless, I take the Deputy's point, which is a fair one. Up until recently, we needed a bigger An Bord Pleanála, one that got over the challenges of a year or so ago. I believe that is happening. I am confident the Deputy will see the output from that during the year.

On the point made about the answer the Deputy got back from the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, I will certainly get a copy of the answer to that parliamentary question or the Deputy might share it with me. My understanding is the reason some houses or properties might not be used for projects at present is they are being changed, retrofitted or changes are being made to those buildings. That in turn is why they are currently not in use. Some of them may not be in use. I am sure the Deputy will give me more information on it. Certainly, from hearing the Minister speak about this issue, my understanding is the majority of facilities he and the Government have access to are being used but it takes time to get buildings active and ready for use.

On empty properties that, for example, the OPW has, we need to consider two issues. One is their suitability for alternative use and the other is the cost of converting them to alternative use. There may be other uses in the future for which they are being set aside. The OPW wants to renovate and change many buildings it has at present but it also has a budget. It has to decide how to prioritise the use of that budget. In some cases, the costs involved in changing buildings that may be empty or not in use for so long have to be considered as the OPW could be open to the charge that there could be a better use for that money. I will certainly look at the point the Deputy raised regarding the number of buildings he claimed are not being used. I cannot understand why. I have given the reason I understand they might not be in use at present.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I know things are hard. It is not easy to move a building into use. There will always be challenges and considerations, but it is a fact the State is massively slower than the private sector in these types of projects. I gave an example previously of 3,500 empty local authority homes in the State. It takes the State eight months to fit them back into use and relet them. The time it takes the private sector to do the same thing is, on average, four weeks. The Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, mentioned that local authority lets are often longer and the properties may need more work. I accept that but we have to understand the State is incredibly slower than the private sector in delivering these projects. I am a strong believer in the public sector. I want to see a stronger public sector but I want to see it more efficiently run.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I do not accept that. The Deputy is perpetuating the idea in his question and the way he put it to me of a perpetually inefficient public service. I fundamentally disagree. For example, the delivery by our public service of making a broadband plan happen, its ability to make projects happen in higher universities and in places of third-level learning throughout the country, and the speed with which those projects are happening, matches what the private sector can do.

I look at what our semi-State organisations, such as ESB and Bord na Móna, are doing at the moment and they are a match for anything the private sector is doing.

As somebody who has worked in both the private and public sectors, the complex truth is that each of them is good at different things. The public sector and public service can always do better, but when it comes to the procurement and delivery of, in particular, larger projects, I do not accept the inference that the private sector is automatically better or more efficient. Of course, the private sector rarely has to publish information about costs and original timings in the way we must. That is the big difference. Is the Deputy suggesting the private sector has not had the difficulties we have had in the past two years in the tendering and delivery of projects and the time it takes? Of course it has. The difference is that companies in the private sector do not have to publish that information unless they have to make it available at a top-line level or an overall basis to their shareholders. Such companies do not have a responsibility to go into individual projects like we do because we are accountable to the taxpayer and the Oireachtas. As someone who makes the case for the role of the State on so many other occasions, I find it inconsistent that the Deputy makes that argument, on the one hand, while, on the other, he perpetuates ideas I think are frankly disrespectful to those who are, at times, involved in the delivery of projects. Things are far from perfect but they are better than the Deputy is suggesting.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

The public sector is fantastic at delivering many things in this country.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

It is good to hear the Deputy say that.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I would prefer the public sector to be delivering significant elements within society than for the private sector to be doing so. However, I believe that under the management of this Government, we do not have the efficiencies we should be getting from the public sector. The Minister mentioned accountability. The Secretary General of the Department of Health was before this committee a number of months ago and I asked him if, in his recollection, anybody at the senior levels of the Department or in that sector had ever lost his or her job for not fulfilling a role properly and he said "No". You can bet your bottom dollar there is not a section of the private sector where that is the case. We can go back and forth on this issue but I have only a few minutes and I want to get to the other sections if I can.

I wish to talk about the amount of money the State is paying through the State Claims Agency, which is a big expenditure we are not focusing on enough. I found a response to a parliamentary question that stated that, within a five-year period, 500,000 people experienced adverse incidents, such as accidents, etc., within the health service. The Department of Health told me 3,150 people had lost their lives as a result of accidents that happened within the public service in a five-year period. In the same time period, €1.5 billion was paid out in compensation. I just looked at the amount of money the State is allocating to the State Claims Agency annually. When Fine Gael came into government in 2011, the State was allocating €60 million per year to the State Claims Agency for it to deal with its costs, etc. Last year, the State was providing €500 million for claims. I am absolutely sure that no matter how well run a system is, there will always be mistakes that are not anybody's fault and the State will have to cover the costs. I accept that. However, the trend shows a radical acceleration of the money the State is now providing to the State Claims Agency to deal with compensation payouts from the State due to mistakes made within the Department of Health. I want to make it clear that the nurses and doctors are doing their damnedest. I say that from the start. We know, however, there is a massive amount of pressure on them because of understaffing with departments, etc., which is making it more difficult for them to deliver on their work. It is interesting there has rightly been a lot of talk about the national children's hospital, but two or three years ago, the money being paid out in claims would have wiped out the entire cost of that hospital. The Minister might address that issue.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I will make three points. There are many other ways of implementing accountability other than by sacking people.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I agree.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I go back again to the point that the Deputy is feeding into a narrative that I find unusual for him, given that he makes the case for the public sector. He is feeding into that. There are many other ways of exercising accountability rather than just by dismissing people. In respect of the public sector, while there are many things that we, and I, want it to do better, I will still make the case that when it comes to the delivery of projects, which we are discussing, it does a good job more often than not.

The State Claims Agency is not a Vote for the Department of public expenditure but is a Vote for the Department of Finance. It is not a part of the Vote I am bringing forward to the committee so I cannot answer the questions the Deputy has asked. They should be put to the Minister for Finance and not to me. As a former Minister for Finance, who was responsible for that Vote, much of the increase in the budget for the State Claims Agency is driven by its need to respond to court cases and to support and inform the very public servants the Deputy made a point of praising a few moments ago. When the Deputy asks about the growth of the budget of the State Claims Agency, the question and his tone imply waste in how it is done. The work of the State Claims Agency, which, as I said, is not part of the Vote before the committee today, is, in many cases, driven by its need to respond-----

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

There are adverse incidents.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

-----to actions being taken against public servants in the delivery of public services. It is also there to support and make the case for our public servants in court, which is a valuable function for which it is needed. The Deputy's questions should be put in detail to the Minister for Finance.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I thank the Minister. I have one more brief question. I apologise because I realise those are questions for the Minister for Finance. There is, however, a correlation between the increase in adverse incidents, the increase in damage done to people, and the increase in the money the State is paying out through the State Claims Agency.

I have a question on pension issues with An Post. It seems a battle is going on with An Post staff at the moment. Some staff are looking to get clarification on their PRSI or pension class, etc. They are looking for their work histories from An Post. That has been delayed for approximately a year. Is there a battle going on? I am not sure.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

Not only am I not aware of any battle, I am not aware of the particular issue either. I will come back to the Deputy on the matter. I know the entitlements of those in receipt of pensions are an important issue. I will follow up on the matter and ensure the Deputy gets a response.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I apologise for my late appearance but I had back-to-back meetings. I welcome the Minister and his staff to this important meeting about an important Department. I have a number of questions.

Vote 11 is for public expenditure and national development plan delivery. I know the Minister has expressed concerns about the following issue in the past, as have we all. It is crucial that we can identify the issues that are most likely to impede progress on the delivery of the national development plan. The Minister may have some of that information and some of it may still be pending. Will he elucidate further the extent to which he has been able to go around the Departments to find out the progress of national development plan projects and find a way to loosen the system to allow it to go forward?

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I have identified three risks in that regard. The first is the maintenance at current levels of cost price inflation for projects that are publicly tendered and the risk that cost price inflation could accelerate in the future. Second is the matter raised by Deputy Tóibín, that is, our ability to move important public projects, and in particular I highlight infrastructural projects in energy, through our planning system.

Third, and I am a little bit more optimistic about the third one than I have been for a while, is the availability of the staff and expertise within our economy to move forward larger projects. In particular, I would point to issues like engineering staff and where we are with planning personnel. I think that may get a bit better in the time ahead but, in my engagement with Ministers, they are the three key issues. Of course Departments will always make the case for more money so they can move more projects forward. Leaving that aside for a moment, they are three factors that pose the most challenge to our work.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

To what extent has it been possible to identify the root causes in each case? Inflation has been a cause. To dig down deeper about inflation, it is now accepted by everybody that inflation is rampant even though all the indicators are that inflation is coming down. To what extent is the existence of inflation in itself a cause for further inflation?

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

It is a really good question. A significant cause is the answer. I will just summarise it really quickly. First, if input costs are going up it puts huge pressure on output costs to go up. As the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, touched on earlier, there is the difference between the price of wood or concrete going up and what that means then to the cost of delivering a building. One, inflation in one part of the supply chain has a huge effect on where we are later on, in the supply chain. Two, the risk is always there that if an assumption or sentiment is created that prices are going to go up further in the future, it can play a role then in an expectation of higher prices within the economy, and some may take advantage of it. I am just saying that is a risk. I am not saying I have evidence of that happening now. I do not but I think it is a risk for the future. That is why the work the Minister of State and our procurement services are doing is so incredibly important, and it is why competition in our procurement processes are so important.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Long since past, some Departments have had to dig deeper into this system to identify the cause or causes of inflation. It was not always possible to find them because some areas had decided that because it was trendy to have inflation at the time, everybody should avail of it. That is me putting my construct on it. The point is there was evidence that inflation was being pumped to suit certain situations, etc. Purely on the basis that it is popular now to do it everybody is doing it. We need more than that. If it should happen, further investigation must be undertaken into that area. I think it would be a good graft to find out the precise cause of inflation in each case, particularly for major components. I ask for that to be kept in mind and probably it has been done already.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

Yes.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

In the event that it is, I support the idea.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

My Minister of State may have more to add because he and his organisation are the experts in managing this so I will offer one general observation. On what I think the Deputy is saying, there was definitely a risk of this in the past but this current phase of modern inflation is different from other challenges that we have had. This is inflation that is caused by a supply shock rather than a demand shock. It is inflation that is caused by what has happened with raw materials and what has happened with supply chains, at least up until recently, as opposed to what have been caused by very high levels of demand within our economy, and that is the case for Europe. It may be different in America and elsewhere in the world but, and the Minister of State's teams have done this, we can see what has happened with the price of wood, steel and concrete. That is a supply issue. That has gone up not because of the levels of demand within our economy, though it may be playing a role. It is primarily a supply shock rather than a demand one.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

For instance, if a war starts somewhere it is always a good call to say: "Yep, prices have to go up. There is a war on." Everybody knew there was a war on before that. They did not have to learn about that at that stage but it has often happened that there is a subsequent increase. First, the war itself causes a scare, not to reduce prices but to increase prices. Then, out of necessity, there is another scare and another reason for the increase on the basis that the war was definitely on. I am a bit cynical in putting it in that way, but there is a bit of evidence to suggest that.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I think what we saw in Ukraine was suddenly a spike in energy prices because Ukraine was responsible for delivering a lot of energy, and also a spike in food prices. Energy prices then feed through to prices all the way across the economy. So we had a sudden change. Since then there has been a dramatic fall, certainly in the wholesale price of energy, which is then coming through into our inflation figures. The ECB still has a target of 2%. Inflation has come right down to where it was in the US. Globally, I think we are moving back towards a non-inflationary period. We are also seeing shorter supply lines so people are less inclined to have their businesses rely on long, fragile supply chains leading to countries that are unstable. A lot of things are being done onshore instead in Ireland. We are also becoming a country that produces our own energy. It is happening very quickly but, strategically, within about ten years or so we will be an electricity-exporting country rather than one that is reliant on imports.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

It should be possible to deal with planning in a simple way but it is not, apparently. For instance, the Minister already made reference to issues for An Bord Pleanála regarding major infrastructural projects that cannot proceed. I have an example of one in my own town whereby a €22 million investment was approved ten or 12 years ago. Today, it was approved by An Bord Pleanála. In heaven's name why do we have to wait that length of time? There were judicial reviews and everybody goes for a judicial review at this stage. There may be various reasons for the judicial review but the upshot is that ultimately the project that cost €22 million beforehand will cost considerably more now. There are instances where projects go ahead after 15 years and more, in some cases, so we need to be ruthless in pursuit of those delays otherwise it is out of our hands. Governments cannot control the level of expenditure or anticipated expenditure unless some means is found to smooth the path of major projects, not to oppose them or force them down people's necks but go through the procedures that have to be gone through in order to protect the public purse, protect the public interest and ensure that progress is achieved.

Nearly ten years ago the local infrastructure housing activation fund, LIHAF, proposals were announced. A great number of them have not advanced at all because A has to wait for B, B has to object yet, C awaits to see the outcome of A and B because C proceeds and eventually the projects land in the mire. It is very sad to see that kind of thing happen and to try to explain to the general public who do not understand why this sort of thing should happen with consequent costs to the Exchequer.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

Sure, but that is the reason why, Deputy. I take his point regarding the delays.

The delay the Deputy has referred to in his constituency sounds extraordinarily long. That is the reason we have made the additional resources available to An Bord Pleanála. The number of staff it has is being increased considerably. It did so last year and it will do so again this year. It is also the reason we have appointed more judges and why there is now a separate part of our judicial system that deals with planning and environmental matters. We have done so because of the issue the Deputy referred to, which is projects being objected to. The community or an individual have the right to object. The issue then becomes the amount of time taken in the vindication of that right and the impact that has on the delivery of projects. I know that will not make the past better and I accept that the point is a serious one, but I am confident that over the next year we will continue to see the impact of the decisions we have made, in particular with An Bord Pleanála.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The Chairman will be glad to know that I am going to finish soon. Before I do, can we deal with the OPW now?

An Cathaoirleach

That is next.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I will have to wait in anticipation because I have an interest in it.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

Can I ask that if there are any questions for the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, they be asked first? I just need to step outside for one minute and I will be right back.

An Cathaoirleach

That is fine.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

Is that okay, Deputy Boyd Barrett? I will not short change him on answering questions.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

That is fine. I just do not want it to eat into my time because I have some questions for the Minister.

An Cathaoirleach

We have to finish at 3.15 p.m. anyway. Deputy Conway Walsh, Deputy Boyd Barrett and I want to contribute.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Am I not next on the rota?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes you are. Did you have a question on this?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

What is the Minister of State responsible for?

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I deal with procurement, e-government, chief information officer, IT, that kind of stuff.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Big title.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

The longer the title, the less important the position, I think.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Does that cover all forms of procurement?

Deputy Ossian Smyth

It is the Office of Government Procurement so procurement policy, yes.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Okay. I do not know if this is within the Minister of State's remit. One of the things I hear again and again when it comes to e-government is the lack of digitisation in the health service and the consequent fragmentation of information relating to patients, because things are not joined up. I hear story after story of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, where there may be complex treatments or multiple issues across different demarcation lines of several consultants. They are all in different silos and information is not easily available so that people can see the holistic picture of a patient. This negatively impacts on patient care. It seems like a no-brainer - and people have been saying it for a long time - that we need to rapidly advance the digitisation of patient information. Where are we at in this regard and why is it taking so long?

Connected to that, to what extent is the fact that our health service itself is massively fragmented an obstacle? In other words, we have the the St. Vincent's Healthcare Group, the Bon Secours and the HSE running another bit. There is all this fragmentation and private bits of the health service which potentially create demarcation lines and silos which are unhelpful when we need a streamlined, coherent, non-fragmented health system where information can flow easily with the patient.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I will answer this from the point of view of e-government. I am responsible for e-government policy and making sure that people can access their records online. Of course it is up to the Minister and the Department of Health to deliver on that. Health is an incredibly important part and that question is very good and very fair. As people move through their lives they see a variety of different healthcare professionals. They see GPs who are privatised and they see people who are in the public health service - for example, they attend a HSE hospital, a voluntary hospital like St. Vincent's or the Mater and may be in community healthcare as well.

Traditionally in Ireland, those different sections of the healthcare system allocate a different number to each patient and those numbers are not joined up. Let us take a hypothetical example, a person is in an accident, knocked down by a car in the west of Ireland. Somebody needs to assemble the person's healthcare record. It is not actually in one place at all. To get all that data together, just to get a simple history of what has happened to a person in their life. Gathering information on their diagnoses, procedures they have had, illnesses and allergies and so on, would be a research project. All those different bodies would have to be contacted. It makes sense that everybody should use one ID number and, in fact, we have a social security number in Ireland, the PPS number. The Health and Information Bill 2023 intends to legislate for that and to say that healthcare operators can all use the PPS number and can all join up their records.

One of the questions is how are we doing in this regard and what can we bring together. During the pandemic, for one of the first times ever in Ireland there was a healthcare system that applied to the entire population. For example, everybody had to get a vaccination. To do so, there had to be a record of everybody in the State in one place, not split between different healthcare providers. Of course, the vaccinations were delivered by a range of different people, pharmacists, GPs and hospitals and so on. However, we all had to keep track of who had had their first dose or their second one. There had to be a centralised system and that was built extremely quickly. Because the healthcare system was under stress and because there was no shortage of motivation to deliver the project, it did not run into organisational challenges or consenting problems. It simply delivered in a few months a system which was way better than what would have been delivered in normal times over a period of years.

A system was delivered that was able to schedule vaccinations, run contact tracing, the testing service and everything else that was needed to manage the pandemic. This is a model for how things should work. There should be a centralised record of every person's healthcare and so on. That is being built at the moment. I have worked with people in the HSE on this. The HSE's budget for IT has doubled. It is now €200 million per year. The number of staff has also greatly increased. Its IT section now has 820 people working there. The HSE is working on an app. This is a normal thing that happens in other European countries. People can use the app on their phone. It will show a person's prescription, they can book a doctor's appointment and so on. Everything is centralised so a person can see a history of the tests they have had carried out and what the results are. Doing this empowers the patient to know what is going on. In the traditional authoritarian or patriarchal way the health service worked in Ireland in the past, a person went to hospital and things were done to them. No real explanation was given as to what happened. The doctor treating the person would then send a letter to the person's GP telling that person about it. People were often dispensed drugs or injected with drugs without even being told what was going on. The person's role was merely to submit and to accept all this.

This is a different philosophy in which the patient is involved in their episode of care. Their information is shared with them and actually belongs to them. With the consent of the patient, the information is shared among all healthcare professionals and their health records are kept in one place.

I will give some examples of what is going on. For the most part, the maternity hospitals have electronic healthcare records. The new children's hospital will have electronic healthcare records. As I said, the app which I expect will be the type of app that will be installed by the vast majority of people in the country, will allow people to see online their healthcare records as they happen, as happens in other European countries. I am looking forward to seeing that later this year and I am glad that the HSE is using an agile approach to this. It is not doing a giant project.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I am conscious of time and I appreciate the Minister of State's answer. He is working on it and things are advancing. If possible, will he give me a one or two-sentence answer? Are we heading towards, and when, a fully integrated and digitised system of information for patients?

Deputy Ossian Smyth

Yes, we are.

The reason is that it is better for the patients and is better for the doctors.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Roughly, when are we going to get there?

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I expect their app will be launched later this year. It is already in the pilot phase. I have been given a demonstration of it. The agency is working on it but, again, it is about the balance, as Deputy Tóibín stated earlier, between too much optimism and over-cautiousness. If the people working in the health service are too worried that they are going to deliver something-----

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I am very conscious of time. The Chair will pull me up-----

An Cathaoirleach

They are too good for him, Minister.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I wish to ask a question of the Minister, Deputy Donohoe. There are often references to planning objections and so on in terms of delivery. Is it fair to say that this is a bit overstated? The Department produces the IGEES report, which suggests that this is not really a problem. The vast majority of planning permissions are granted. There are some that are objected to, but the vast number of planning permissions granted far exceeds the number of commencements. There are far more planning permissions out there that could be acted on, but are just not, than there are planning objections holding up development. I am not saying it never happens, but, anecdotally, that is the case in my area. People make submissions and that is what the system is for, but the number of projects that are not objected to and that advance, or for which the planning permission is given and do not advance, exceeds by multiples of about ten the number of applications held up because of objections. Is this fair comment based on studies and surveys that have been done by the Department? Is it not the case that the bigger issue seems to be other delays that we cannot quite get to the bottom of but have something to do with things like procurement, tendering rules or bits of the system not joining up with each other? Is it that the land is not serviced so we cannot start to do anything? I refer to instances where, for example, Irish Water has not put in the necessary infrastructure in place.

There is another problem in that we have not quite figured out who we will get to do this work. What I really want the Minister to comment on is delivery. Is there a reasonable case to be made, even as a sort of experiment, for trying to develop the delivery model? Covid is actually a good example of how we delivered when we had to. I refer, for example, to the delivery of the vaccine programme. There was a will to do it and there was centralisation, even if there were multiple contractors, or whatever we want to call them, involved. There was a centralised drive and the programme was delivered. Is there a case for the state to have some sort of core company that would achieve the same thing when it comes to key infrastructure and housing projects? The State would have its own construction capacity but would also possibly benefit from economies of scale in the context of machinery, raw materials and so on, and have its own labour capacity and skills in key areas. Is there a serious case for us having that? There would also be the private bit but the State would have its own construction capacity. Has the Minister looked at this seriously? Would he consider looking at it? We should look at this in the context of delivering key housing and infrastructure projects to see if such a model could add a new dynamism.

In framing my final question, I will repeat what I have heard from some people who are involved in sport in the Liberties. The people in question described to me the absolute lack of sports facilities in the area. Near St. Teresa's Gardens, there are two former sports pitches that have been sitting derelict and fenced up for about a decade. I walked past there at the weekend and said, "Jesus, this is disgrace". They are just sitting there. The guys involved in SportingLiberties have said that kids are having to trespass to find a pitch to play on because there are no pitches and yet here are two in public ownership that are fenced off completely. The guy from SportingLiberties asked if Dublin City Council burned down tomorrow would it take ten years to rebuild Dublin City Council in order for Dublin City Council to function? We all know the answer is "No, it would not". But when it comes to providing sporting facilities for young people who have absolutely none in the Liberties area we are sitting on two former sports pitches that are sitting there rotting and kids are having to trespass and endanger their own physical health and safety in order to kick a ball around. Is this not a serious problem? We need a more centralised and co-ordinated drive to deliver these things than we seem to have, which is a deeply fragmented kind of system where things do not join up.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

There was a lot in that. I do not say this pejoratively, because it is the right of individuals and communities to object, but I do believe that objections play a role in slowing down the delivery of projects. How do I reconcile that with the Deputy's correctly made point that more projects get granted planning permission than do not? The issue is that while it may be true in terms of the number of individual projects, in my experience the projects that are capable of delivering more homes do get slowed down by people exercising their democratic right.

The second factor that plays a role is the nature of the objections that are made. Ten years ago, it used to be the case that the highest form of objection was to go to An Bord Pleanála but now it is to go to judicial review. That absolutely has an effect on the speed and time for projects being delivered. Again, so that my comments are not misinterpreted I must emphasise that I am not criticising anybody for exercising their right. While planning applications for individual homes may well be granted in large numbers, I come back to my own experience that individual applications for multiple dwellings or multiple homes do move forward at a far slower pace, in particular now because of the number that end up in judicial review. I would have to look at the paper the Deputy referred to. I do not have that publication in front of me. I would simply say that it is a factor as opposed to the factor in it all. The Deputy has highlighted a number of other issues that slow things down. The Deputy is right in highlighting them.

The Deputy suggested setting up a centralised body to do this work. To be frank I cannot think of anything that would slow us down more as a State body than trying to do that. If we were to begin the process now of taking off every local authority in the country the work they do in housing and aggregate it into a single State body we would be at it for years. I just look at Irish Water as a classic example of it. I passionately believe that establishing Irish Water was the right thing to do but it is only in the last year or so that we have concluded on lots of issues relating to the staff that now work at Irish Water who had worked for local authorities. If at this point in our housing challenge the answer was that we were to come up with a new State body to do it, my genuine fear is that it would only slow us down and not speed us up.

An Cathaoirleach

I will ask the Minister a question that I have often asked him here at these meetings about the report No. 42 and the employees of the State affected by it.

They were at the Workplace Relations Commission, Labour Court or wherever and won all that. I understand that representatives from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform did not turn up to the last meeting. These former employees, some of whom continue to be employed in the health services in particular, have not been paid according to the recommendations. It has been recommended that they be paid. I understand that the Department of Health may be holding up those payments. Because this is an issue arising for people working for the State waiting for their payments, the Department of public expenditure and reform should be involved. I know it had involvement in the court hearings. What is the up-to-date position?

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

The up-to-date status of that is that a further conciliation conference took place on this matter in November at the Workplace Relations Commission. This followed from the one that took place last May. The representatives of the Government at that point indicated that the matter could only be dealt with in the context of a new public service pay agreement, which we now have. That offers the opportunity to move issues like this forward but I cannot give a specific commitment on that particular matter because only a certain amount of money is available for the resolution of sectoral issues. The issue was then referred to the Labour Court. The case was heard in the Labour Court on 23 January, so last week. We are now awaiting a Labour Court recommendation. Management has committed to return to the Labour Court if the matter was not resolved in the pay talks. In summary, the matter was in front of the Labour Court. If the issue cannot be resolved through the new pay agreement, which we concluded on Friday, the matter will then be back in front of the Labour Court.

An Cathaoirleach

Did the Department participate in that court hearing? Did it appear as a party to the hearing? It was to and I understand that it did not. I just want to know if that is true or false.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I do not know the answer to that question. I will not make up an answer on the spot. If my Department was requested to appear before the Labour Court, I am certain that it would. It is the case that issues particular to particular sectors within our public service are, most of the time, represented by the State organisation in that sector. If this matter related to the Department of Health, most of the time, only the Department of Health would be there, as opposed to being with my Department. I will give the Cathaoirleach an answer to that.

An Cathaoirleach

Can we have a note on that?

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

Sure.

An Cathaoirleach

The Minister is reading from notes there.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I am.

An Cathaoirleach

Perhaps he will update the committee on it.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

I want to refer to procurement. I know that Covid was an emergency and certain procurements of properties, accommodation and so on had to be undertaken at speed. I am interested in the Minister of State's view on a look-back at what happened in that time to learn from it with regard to how property, particularly accommodation, was procured by the State. Has the Minister of State any concerns about that?

Deputy Ossian Smyth

About how accommodation was procured during the pandemic? Does the Cathaoirleach mean, for example, for isolation and so on?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes. The same question would apply to the current situation with Ukrainian accommodation and international protection. The State is presumably paying many companies or individuals that are contracted to provide such accommodation. How satisfied is the Minister of State that all of the requirements laid down during the procurement process are being met?

Deputy Ossian Smyth

During an emergency, the normal procurement rules do not apply. One does try to get the best value for money but does not have to go through the full formal process. That makes sense. If one is in the middle of a pandemic and lives are at stake, one obviously has to act at speed and get the best price one can. For the Cathaoirleach's information, the leasing and acquisition of property is specifically excluded from the European procurement rules. It is not generally included. What was involved in accommodation is more than just getting property. It is generally about a whole managed service, including providing food, security, cleaning and so on. Those kinds of contracts involve acquiring a whole service. There is a similarity with the way that Citywest Hotel was used at one point to isolate people during the pandemic. Later on, it was used to accommodate asylum seekers. There was an emergency phase to the procurement that took place during the pandemic, which was then declared over by the Cabinet decision to remind people that they had to go through the proper procedures once the pandemic emergency phase had passed.

Similarly, with asylum seekers, we are now two years into the war. The number of people arriving has gone down a lot. It is time to make sure that we are getting good value for money and that we move out of an emergency phase of procurement. The State has done that because there was a recent Government decision that the State would move more directly to the construction of properties rather than leaving it to the private sector to carry out.

An Cathaoirleach

There is a layer of administration or management there, which will look, by EU rules or not, at the properties the State has to ensure that they are being used properly, that we are getting value for money, and that those participating in any of those properties know that the Department is auditing them as they go.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I absolutely agree. The sums of money involved are very large. It is important that we are getting value for money. It is also important that we are stuck with what made sense during an emergency and rolling it forward for years. The Government made a clear decision at Cabinet recently to move away from emergency provision of accommodation and towards a more structured or planned approach.

An Cathaoirleach

I want to ask the Minister of State about the private sector. It has engaged with the Department where a company or an individual has expressed an interest in providing accommodation. They go through five stages of that process for approval of the property itself. It is accepted that, generally, if they are ticking the boxes, they are expecting to be clear by the time they reach stage 5, but that is not the case. I know of many properties that have ticked the boxes and moved from one phase to the other, and now end up at the end of the process, having spent some of the over €100,000, only to be told by email that the property is not wanted. It is not that it is not up to standard, but just that it is not wanted. Surely there must be a better way of doing business than that? The private sector has responded. It has spent a great deal of money. Now it is left without any possibility of providing the accommodation and getting the turnover that is required. I think that is an unfair system. There are no contracts in it. The Department walking away is not the right thing to do. At some stage, the Department should indicate that it is not going to take it, but it takes it right to the end. It is not just one contract but quite a number. It is not just in my constituency, but all over. To have them out of pocket is not right.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

Any kind of Government administration or procurement system like that should absolutely be fair to the participants. It should be transparent and so on. I accept that. I am not aware that companies went all the way through the process, only to receive an email to say no at the end. If the Cathaoirleach wants me to follow that up with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, I will do so.

I am aware that there are companies that spent a considerable amount of money on properties before they applied. They went to the Department after putting in beds, furnishing them and so on but were told their properties were not suitable at all. There was no engagement before they spent the money. However, I am not aware that companies were going through all of the stages only to be told “No” at the end.

An Cathaoirleach

Have a look at that.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I would be happy to look into any specific issue the Cathaoirleach has.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask the Minister of State to do that. I have emails that indicate engagement with the Department right up to the very end only for that engagement to stop suddenly. There is then a flurry of activity, with the companies trying to get back to the Department to ask whether it is taking the four units or whatever the number might be, and in a final email, they are told, "No". When I think of the 776 people on the streets of Dublin or wherever without a roof over their heads, I think of all of those properties that are not being used. At least some of the people on the streets could have a roof over their heads. The properties are proper and up to standard, their fire safety has been checked, etc. This situation is wrong. Will the Minister of State revert to me after he has investigated it? I have failed to get an answer.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I would like to know more of the details of that specific project before I comment on it. I accept that the system should be fair-----

An Cathaoirleach

I am referring to the general system.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

-----and transparent and, in general, it should tell people the reasons for a project not proceeding.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. Do members have other questions?

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Has the Minister an update on the discussions around the projected €19 billion shortfall in the NDP? How is it being handled?

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

The Deputy’s question refers to the analysis that was done by, I believe, the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council. Is that correct? The council was speaking about the impact of cost-price inflation on the delivery of projects. This issue is manifesting itself by Departments making the case at the moment for more money to fund capital commitments in the coming years. I am engaging with Ministers on that. I am more optimistic now about the impact of inflation on procurement projects in the time ahead than I was six months ago. We are beginning to see some signs in tendering of cost-price inflation beginning to moderate. I hope the scale of the difficulty is not in line with the expectations of IFAC. This issue is manifesting itself by Departments making the case for more capital funding to deliver projects to which they are committed. I am working with them on that.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Is money available for 2024? IFAC spoke about €2.5 billion each year.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

That is correct. On budget day, I indicated an amount of €2.25 billion, with €250 million available for this year and the rest spread over 2025 and 2026. It is through those discussions the issue the Deputy is referring to is being addressed.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Durkan may ask a short question.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

On public procurement and bidding for Government contracts, do we adequately protect the system, in other words, the Government and the State, from being taken to the fair by wealthy and well-organised financial conglomerates, which in some cases could impact on the housing market? Have we put in place measures to ensure we are protected in those circumstances?

I also wish to ask about tender rigging. There are ways to weed that out, including simple ones. Not even the cleverest of financially resourced companies can get around them if they are properly organised. Have we in place sufficiently rigorous procedures to identify rigging, which can and does result in the State paying more or getting less value for its money?

An Cathaoirleach

A short reply, please.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

Regarding the State being taken advantage of by wealthy of conglomerates, most of our procurement goes to SMEs and Irish companies. That is the reality of procurement in Ireland. Where there are large amounts of money involved, there will always be some small number of participants that try to defraud the system. There is also the possibility of multiple bidders colluding so that they divvy up contracts between them and they do not really compete.

As I told Deputy Conway-Walsh, when discussing very large auctions, the first auctions one thinks of are for energy contracts – people bidding on offshore wind farms and so on – mobile phone licences and broadband spectrum. These are multibillion euro contracts, so we want to ensure there is no collusion between the bidders. There is a whole academic discipline that looks into this matter, there are consultants, there are bodies of evidence and so on. There has not been suspicion in recent years of rigging of contracts. As I told Deputy Conway-Walsh, I have asked the OGP to collaborate with the CCPC this year and get its specific advice, as the CCPC is the body that busts cartels and has specific domain knowledge about collusion, and to co-operate with the OGP’s equivalent bodies in other European countries, get their expertise and ask them how they deal with bid rigging. Ultimately, most of this will come down to ensuring that we are collecting as much data as possible, analysing it and looking for anomalies or patterns therein that suggest collusion or fraud.

An Cathaoirleach

Some members have asked for further information. I ask that the Minister and Minister of State provide it. I thank them and their officials for attending.