Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 31 Jan 2024

Vote 13 - Office of Public Works (Revised)

Deputy Damien English took the Chair.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Damien English)

On behalf of the select committee, I welcome the Minister of State with responsibility for the Office of Public Works and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Patrick O’Donovan, and his officials. I thank them for their time, and I apologise for the delay in starting. We had an overrun in first half of our meeting. Members will have received the briefing documents provided by the Department in advance of the meeting. Once again I thank the officials for providing the briefing materials in a timely manner.

In relation to the format of the meeting, the purpose of today's meeting is to consider the Revised Estimate and performance information regarding the outputs and impacts of the programme of expenditure. The programme-based structure of the Estimate should allow the committee to focus on what the Department is committed to achieving in terms of actual outputs and outcomes; consider whether the performance targets included in the Estimate sufficiently complete the description of the services provided by the Department and whether those targets strike the right balance in terms of the needs of society; and to consider whether the information provided by the Department makes clear how the money is available or allocated between services and whether those allocations are the most appropriate in the circumstances. I call on the Minister of State to make his opening remarks.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

I thank the Cathaoirleach for the welcome to me and the officials of the Office of Public Works. I am pleased to be before the committee again to present the 2024 Revised Estimate for the Office of Public Works. The gross allocation for 2024 is €645 million, which comprises €140 million for climate-responsive flood risk management and €505 million to be invested in estate management.

First, the structure of the OPW Vote remains unchanged. However, in line with the Government’s infrastructure investment of €165 billion under the NDP from 2021 to 2030, the OPW has seen a 3.6% increase in its capital allocation. This funding will contribute towards the ambitious plan for a greener, more efficient, connected Ireland, part of our climate goal to cut emissions by 50% by 2030.

As the OPW funding allocations, projects and scope of work continue to expand, the two main strategic programmes, namely, climate responsive flood risk management and estate management have grown. The recognition of the threat of climate change has been underlined by events such as COP 28. While the State needs to introduce measures to decarbonise, it also needs to introduce measures to prepare and adapt to the impacts of climate change. As I have highlighted regularly, Ireland is an island nation, and the sea is rising around us. This is one of our greatest risks.

Under its climate responsive flood risk management brief, the OPW continues to co-ordinate Ireland’s whole-of-government approach to managing Ireland’s flood risk from rivers and the sea, the primary source of Ireland’s flood risk. The OPW's core objective is to reduce, to the greatest extent possible, the impact of flooding on homes and businesses, especially in those communities known to be at significant risk. I have seen first-hand the devastating impact that flooding can have on homeowners, businesses and communities.

The flood risk management plans, launched in May 2018, provide evidence to support the Government’s investment in flood risk management over the lifetime of the NDP. This investment supports the progression of some 150 schemes. As Deputies will know, delivering flood relief schemes is a very complex process, with significant challenges, and requires us to do a number of things. These include: understanding the specific sources; identifying the preferred option; securing the relevant consents and planning permissions; and, ultimately, building and maintaining the scheme to the required standard of protection. Throughout all stages, public consultation and detailed assessments of the environmental impacts are critical to informing the design of a scheme for a community.

The prioritisation of schemes means that work is now under way to protect 80% of at-risk properties with proposed solutions for the other 20%. Since 2018, the OPW has been able to treble the number of schemes at the design or construction stages to some 100 schemes. Flood risk projects require expertise and input from engineers in the area of hydrology. As we progress with future schemes, the OPW will continue to make the most efficient use of all available resources and specialist personnel.

One of the principal factors affecting Ireland’s flood risk management is climate change. In designing and building all our schemes, provision is made to ensure they can meet the risk posed by climate change. The OPW’s assessment of risk is fully supported by the evidence from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, IPCC. We anticipate that the 2024 allocation will enable OPW to reach a series of important milestones. This includes continuing the construction of three major flood relief schemes, namely, in Glashaboy in Cork, the Morell River in Kildare, and Whitechurch. We are commencing construction on up to five major other schemes. These are King’s Island in Limerick, Morrison’s Island in Cork, Crossmolina, subject to planning consent, the Poddle and the River Wad. We are progressing up to three further flood schemes towards substantial completion. These are in Athlone, Springfield and Templemore. These schemes will protect more than 600 properties.

Outside these major schemes, local authorities can address local flooding issues through funding from the OPW’s minor flood mitigation works and coastal protection scheme. This provides 90% of the funding required by local authorities and, since 2009, has protected almost 7,900 properties. In addition to the major and minor schemes, the allocation of €140 million to flood risk management in 2024 will help the OPW to maintain some 11,500 km of channels and 800 km of embankments as part of its statutory maintenance duties. This maintenance provides drainage outfall to 650,000 acres of land and a level of protection from flooding to urban areas and critical infrastructure, including more than 20,000 properties.

The second major OPW programme is estate management which continues to fund the design, upkeep and modernisation of a significant number of properties within the State’s property portfolio. These includes heritage sites, Civil Service office accommodation for all Government Departments, An Garda Síochána and many other Government bodies. In all, we manage more than 2,500 properties on behalf of the State, which includes some of Ireland’s most significant properties, gardens and arboretums. Properties range from Leinster House to Sceilg Mhicíl and other office buildings. This management role includes the curation and presentation of 30 major historical properties, 700 national monuments, as well as the State’s art collection, artefacts, plants and trees. This is work that makes a significant contribution to the

health and well-being of the public.

In 2024, OPW heritage sites will play a critical role in the resurgence of Ireland’s tourism economy which are particularly important assets for our rural areas. Ongoing projects, such as the new visitor experience at the Record Tower in Dublin Castle, show that OPW continues to invest in visitor experience and the conservation of these unique places.

In the context of office accommodation, the OPW is charged with designing the workplace of the future for the Civil Service. It aims to deliver accommodation that facilitates more agile ways of working to meet our future needs. In particular, we are actively engaging with our clients in the context of their operational requirements and their long-term blended working policies to ensure that they have the right-sized accommodation that continues to provide value for money for the Exchequer.

Also in 2024, the OPW will see the reopening, after a deep retrofit project, of Tom Johnson House in Beggars Bush. This project, which is being largely funded by the EU under the National Recovery and Resilience Plan and which has reached substantial completion, will provide an exemplar of how an existing obsolete building can be transformed into a modern highly energy-efficient and agile workplace. It will provide a long-term headquarters for the Department of the Environment, Climate Action and Communications and this development will enable the release of an expensive leasehold property in due course.

Members will be aware that as a consequence of the ongoing war in Ukraine, Ireland, along with our EU colleagues, has welcomed tens of thousands of displaced Ukrainians to our shores. The OPW is assisting the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth on an agency basis by piloting a project to

deliver modular homes which will accommodate Ukrainians at sites around the country. Similar to the Brexit infrastructure projects, the Ukraine modular homes project represents another example of us assisting an all-of-government response.

A gross sum allocation of €505 million has been provided for estate management within the 2024 Revised Estimate. Of this €41 million has been allocated as part of the EU National Recovery and Resilience Plan, which I have referred to. This funding was made available to Ireland to contribute to climate action projects and will ensure the OPW is well positioned to continue to contribute towards Europe’s climate and energy objectives and to support the recovery of the tourism sector and the wider economy. Protecting the economy is at the heart of everything we do in all aspects of our work, whether maintaining our national heritage sites or in arterial drainage works.

Finally, I have only referred to a small section of our work. The scale and complexity of our responsibilities in the delivery of the two infrastructural programmes I have referred to have a considerable impact nationwide and are dependent on the expertise and commitment of its staff. The nature of the work of the Office of Public Works requires the input of a dedicated team of professional, technical and administrative staff working in a multi-disciplinary team across a wide range of property management, heritage conservation and engineering functions. The roles cover professional managers, valuers, architects, engineers, mechanical and electrical specialists, surveyors, planners, financial advisers, property economists, and project managers, and are supplemented by other specialists as we require them. These staff play a valuable role in protecting, promoting and sustaining rural and urban life in Ireland. I can say with confidence that the OPW stands ready to deliver the programmes for the Government. I will be happy to take any questions on the Revised Estimate requirements for 2024.

Deputy John McGuinness resumed the Chair.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister of State very much. I call Deputy Durkan to be followed by Deputy Tóibín.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I thank the Chair. I welcome the Minister of State and his officials to the meeting. I compliment the OPW on the things to be complimented on and will make further comment on the things not to be complimented on, whatever they might be.

In the first instance, the work of OPW in the management of public buildings, estates and arterial drainage all over the country is exemplary, with one or two exceptions. This work has been going on for some years. It has been very effective. The sad part about it is that objections to the proposals now seem to carry more weight than the proposals. We should remember that if a solution is proposed that is required to protect the environment, people's homes and the landscape in general, then it has to be taken seriously. A means needs to be found to ensure the work in progress is not impeded by somebody who has another agenda, whatever that agenda may be.

I compliment the Minister of State and the OPW on the drainage works in Kildare which have been very successful and have dealt with the problem of flooding which happened every year without fail, not just once in 50 years or 100 years. That has been resolved satisfactorily, I am glad to say, and there are a few further bits to go.

I will give the Chair, an example, very quickly, of a flood about five to seven years ago which flooded a residential area around Sallins. A whole estate was flooded up to the top of the window sills. Some of us could not understand it. I used to make my living at that kind of work many years ago until I discovered that attenuation tanks were deemed to be the solution to deal with the drainage of the area. What a load of nonsense. Anybody who came up with that conclusion could not have been feeling well at the time but the fact of the matter was that while everybody wrung their hands and talked about reports and calling in experts from abroad to tell us what to do next, two or three local people decided to cut a channel into the nearby canal. The result was the water which had been three-quarter ways up the windows and to the ceiling, with colossal damage done to the houses, was down within an hour and a half. It was simple thinking and it was done. It never flooded again and there was equally heavy rainfall since. It is a question of applying natural methods to solve the problem and not highfalutin notions about what should solve the problem but did not.

There have been a number of other occasions around the country where houses have been at risk with regard to the turloughs and so on. I can assure the Minister of State that I am familiar with them. We wring our hands and we ask what we can do as it is five, six, or seven houses. We say we will move them out, it will cost nothing, they have been flooded before in any event and we can expect more flooding. That is not the way that should be dealt with. It should be dealt with straightaway and if a means can be found to relieve that flooding, we should do it because we know it happens occasionally.

One lake disappeared in one night and the neighbours fought over the land afterwards. Following that, the lake reappeared, so they did not have much to disagree with after that.

I would say that a practical attitude will save a great deal in what some people see as something that should be preserved. The preserving of flooding is not in anybody's interest. I know that we are in the throes of rewetting the land of this country how much rewetting do we need before we are happy with the level of water, recognising that water finds its own level everywhere in the long run? I would suggest that we are fairly well rewetted at the present time. Those who have to make their living in the rewetted areas may ask, "What about me?" We should bear that in mind, and we need to do that soon.

We should remember that they say that one man's meat is another man's poison. We have to take account of the natural inhabitants in an area and try to ascertain the greatest extent to which we can facilitate them. We should remember they have rights too. That does not mean that we do not go about all of the other things we have to do on climate change. These have to be done, and we have to do them to the best of our ability, but we should be wary about coming to conclusions that end up saying that we must do more. We should be very wary about that for the simple reason of asking how much more rewetting we want.

How poor do we need to make ourselves before we have enough done? In recent days, the EPA has claimed that the sacrifices made so far are not sufficient and have had no worthwhile impact in alleviating climate change. It should come forward and tell us more about it. If the sacrifices we are making are so useless and are of no benefit in trying to meet the challenges of climate change, we should find another way but let us not have the sword of Damocles over our heads forever because people live and subsist in the countryside.

The Chairman will be glad to hear I am finishing on this last point. The Minister of State knows full well what it is. It relates to a stately home in my constituency. It has significance not only for the area around Celbridge but for the whole country. We were at a meeting just the other night on its importance and the importance of the valuable objets d'art retained in Castletown House for the whole nation and for the locality. We are conscious of the importance and historical value of the estate and we are equally conscious of the need to maintain, restore and defend it in every way possible. What annoys me is the extent to which the OPW painted local residents as the villains of the piece when they came across engineers or employees of the OPW with an angle grinder who were going to reopen the main gates to the extent needed to accommodate the traffic associated with the way the estate had been operating for some years. It was without provocation. The local people had no option but to protest. They still protest and, to this day, they are being unfairly blamed even though several months have passed and we are still on the same route. I have brought this matter up in the House 11 times with various Ministers, the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste and all have lauded the idea of retaining the estate as an important national heritage location that must be maintained. There is more to the matter that I do not want to delay the meeting with but I appeal to the Minister of the State to deal with the situation.

A new owner bought the adjoining property through which the local authority, the public and the OPW had access for the past 15 years or so. I ask that this access be restored under an interim agreement or some other agreement because it is important that we do not revert to the Lime Avenue entrance, which was valid 200 years ago when Castletown House was built. It was the obvious place and where all the traffic went at that time. Suggesting that traffic go back and forth on that avenue and emerge onto Main Street in Celbridge in the present day is just rubbish. It just does not add up. It would be strongly objected to. It would destroy the town and embitter the people against what is being done to them. They have a right to live in the town and enjoy Castletown House, just as much as people from all over the country do. As was said to us at a recent meeting, people from all over the country have a right to enjoy the house. Of course they have. I do not object to that at all but, in addition, there are taxpayers in Celbridge, just mere taxpayers, who also have a right and entitlement to enjoy their local estate and to welcome visitors to the area.

I appeal to the Minister of State to use his initiative, powers and good offices to turn the tables on the debate so far in such a way as to ensure the estate is protected and preserved, that access to the estate as previously provided is continued through a temporary provision, and that people can come and go from the M4-N4 as they have done for the past 15 years. Turning history on its head and attempting to suggest we can cater for the traffic of today with the same route envisaged 200 years ago will not work. If there were two independent private landowners in this dispute, the courts would already have got involved. They would have had to. It is essential the State asserts itself to protect its interests and the interests of the local people, the tourism industry and national and international visitors in such an important site. I ask that this be done without more ado. Time is running out. I do not intend to spend any more time talking about this issue. I have to do something else.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

I will take the last point first. As Deputy Durkan will know, the issue of Castletown House has preoccupied me and the Department for quite a long time. I have never attempted to blame anybody for what is going on down there and I do not believe any of our officials would wish to. However, the reality is we sought in good faith to buy the lands adjoining Castletown House that were originally part of the Castletown estate. As I have said before here, in the Dáil and in meetings with the residents' groups and the various local groups in Celbridge and the wider north Kildare area, it is the stated ambition of the Office of Public Works to reunite the lands at Castletown. This is an important asset not just for north Kildare but for the 1 million people who visit it every year. It is not just an amenity; it is a strategically important national asset. We want to reunite the lands.

The Deputy is no stranger to the Committee of Public Accounts and will know we have to operate within the confines of the public spending code. We also have to operate within the confines of the legal advice we get. In doing that, we have to operate in the best interests of all of the people. The people of Celbridge pay their taxes but so do people in Maynooth, Cahersiveen and Navan. This is not an issue of where the tax comes from. We have to be cognisant of all of that. In all too many cases before, we have seen the public spending code not being adhered to and people like me and officials like my officials having to come before committees like this to answer questions as to why advices were not adhered to. That being said, it is still our ambition to resolve this issue.

I thank Deputy Durkan for the praise he has heaped upon the staff of the Office of Public Works who have looked after the house for many years and who now cannot get into the building unless they walk in. It is well established at this stage that the lands at the N4 are no longer in the ownership of the previous owner. The previous agreement has expired so that entry is no longer available to us. That does not mean that we are averse to continuing to explore the possibility of getting the lands into State ownership or arriving at a solution as regards access. All of that being said, we have devoted considerable resources to this. We have even considered facilitation by an independent person who would bring all of the interested parties, including the other State bodies involved - Kildare County Council and An Garda Síochána - where necessary, to the table on this issue.

I agree with Deputy Durkan. We are the only ones who are not allowed in via Lime Avenue. Kildare County Council and Irish Water can go in that way. The only people who cannot are those employed by the Office of Public Works. As I said from the outset, nobody is suggesting that this become the main access route for hundreds of thousands of vehicles and the million people who visit the house every year. That is why the issue is broader than just the Office of Public Works. The parking strategy will have to involve Kildare County Council, as was the case with the Phoenix Park parking and mobility strategy. If you go out to another stately home we operate, you will see vehicular access to Farmleigh House operating cheek by jowl with pedestrian access and there is no problem with that. There is a constable of the Office of Public Works standing there. It is maintained and the vehicle points are kept to an absolute minimum. It is the same at Doneraile in County Cork. It is our stated ambition to reach a point at which Castletown estate is in State ownership, and I think everyone would like to see that.

However, we are not the authors of our own destiny when it comes to other people's land, the use of their land and the constitutional protections relating to their land. They can do with their land whatever they decide to do with it.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The OPW made the mistake originally.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

I did not interrupt.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The Minister of State did not interrupt, but I want to point this out.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Durkan, let the Minister of State finish.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I will not interrupt anymore. The OPW and the local authority said there is an alternative entrance. There is not an alternative entrance, and that is crucial.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

It has also been established for many generations that vehicles access Castletown House via Lime Avenue. Kildare County Council, the OPW and Irish Water all do so. It is not true to say that it does not have vehicular access, and everybody knows that. If you go out there-----

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

It is impractical.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

That is a moot point. To say-----

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

If the Minister of State holds that point of view, there is no good in me staying here.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

There is no point in me saying that there was not vehicular access when there was and is vehicular access. That does-----

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

That was 200 years ago.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Give me a chance to finish. That does not mean that we are adverse to finding a solution that involves the M4. However, we do not own that land. We have to have respect for the people who own the land adjacent to us. It also does not mean that we discontinue any sort of dialogue with our neighbours. We are not going to do that either. It is in our interest to restore the lands in their entirety. That is our objective and it is a stated objective of the State.

In respect of what the Deputy said about the other aspect of the Department's role, as I said earlier, what is covered under the Arterial Drainage Act protects around 650,000 acres and 77,000 homes. Some people in this House would like to dismantle the Act, ask whether it is fit for purpose anymore and seek to get rid of it. Everybody to their own devices. Every one of the Deputies in this meeting at the moment is from a rural constituency, where the network of housing available to all of us is predominantly one-off rural housing. The reality for most one-off rural houses in certain parts of the country, including the south, the south east and the east in particular, is that they are protected by the OPW through regular annualised maintenance programmes that are delivered under the Arterial Drainage Act. We know that if that is discontinued, and there are many people in the Houses that want it discontinued, it will have massive unintended consequences.

The Deputy is absolutely right that one person's rewetting is another person's flooding. I have serious concerns about the drive to rewet certain parts of the country without any regard to the neighbours or the people who have lived there for generations. the Deputy referenced a turlough. One of the saddest cases at the moment is in County Roscommon, where people are facing a horrific situation. Roscommon County Council has done as much as it can do. It applied for a scheme through which we funded in excess of €2 million to decant water from a lake to the River Shannon. An interest group took Roscommon County Council to court. Work has stopped and we have had to seal the pipe at both ends. Now those people are terrified of when the water is going to over tap works that have been done by Roscommon County Council to raise roads, and come into their homes. This is reality of what we have to deal with every day of the week. It does not mean that we discontinue, cut them off, drop them and say we have forgotten about them. Indeed, as late as last week we had another internal meeting in the Department with regard to this. There are many of them. There are Lough Funshinaghs all over the country where a viable engineered solution are required at the moment for flood risk. Unfortunately, we have to jump through hoops from an environmental standard point of view to protect people's lives and their properties where that might not have been the case 20 years ago.

In relation to the Deputy's own county, there are 990-odd houses that are covered by the schemes there. The largest is in Naas, where over half of the properties are, but some very significant ones are already completed, like the first two parts of the Morell project and the one in Leixlip as well. We have an ambitious programme there with an investment of close to €22 million that we will deliver in County Kildare.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The clock still ticks.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

We are acutely aware of the Deputy's concerns and we are working towards a solution.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I am glad to see the civil war in Fine Gael has been put on ice for the moment. I want to direct a couple of questions to the Minister of State.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The Deputy should not worry about the civil war.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

There was a time when the Deputy and Deputy Conway-Walsh were the ones at war, but we will not mention that at all.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Leave me out of it.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

There are a couple of issues I want to deal with. The first is the flooding in Midleton. It goes to the heart of a major problem that exists in this Government in terms of the delivery of projects. The Minister of State alluded to it when he stated that Lough Funshinagh engineering projects could have been delivered 20 years ago and that they have to jump through so many hoops now. It does feel, in many ways, that we are really starting to tie ourselves up in knots in this country in terms of the delivery of proper infrastructural projects. It is three months since the floods in Midleton and many families are not back in their homes. Many families are split up. Some people have no option of where to live. They are living in terrible conditions at the moment. Some businesses are still not open, and many will never reopen. Many businesses are actually waiting for compensation from the humanitarian aid assistance fund for homeowners and from the emergency relief scheme for businesses. There is a huge level of trauma and the associated mental health issues there. It seems that this whole process of delivering support is riddled with red tape. I have been speaking to Mona Stromsoe, who is part of the campaign in Midleton to try to get the flood defences built on time. It is striking. Why is it the case that so many families have not received humanitarian aid and so many businesses have not received aid from the relief scheme at this stage, three months later?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

I am not the Minister for Social Protection or the Minster for enterprise. If the Deputy has details of specific cases with regard to individual applicants and he forwards them on to me, I will have the relevant Ministers look at them. That is not the responsibility of the OPW.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

That is a pity, because I recall the Minister of State being in the area shortly after the flood and promising, as part of the Government response, that there would be speedy support for families and businesses. That simply has not been the case. It is quite shocking. The Taoiseach also promised that there would be speedy help.

The timelines for the flood defences are also quite stunning. The process for flood defences in Midleton started in 2015. At a recent meeting in the town with Cork County Council, the OPW and Arup in November 2023, it was stated that it would be nine years at least before the systems would be in place. Is that correct? Nine years from now is 2033, and the process started in 2015. That is a long time for the Government to react to what is an emergency situation, where businesses and families are being put out of their homes and where lives are being put at risk. Is that the timeline that the Minister of State understands?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

No, that is not the case. In 2017, this was a much smaller scheme. It was a scheme with €17 million worth of funding, which was to protect a much smaller area. The sources of flooding at the time were not the sources of flooding. We are now designing defences to protect against a once-in-100-years event, where there is flooding in Midleton from four sources. I do not know if the Deputy has met members of Cork County Council to discuss this matter himself.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I have not. I have been speaking to the campaigners.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Members of Cork County Council would tell the Deputy, if he met them, that there is flooding from four sources. It is unique. There is flooding from an underground source, like a turlough, flooding from the tide, flooding from the rain and flooding from insufficient capacity in the river. It is a totally different comparison now, with a €50 million scheme in 2024. That is the stage the project it is at. It is at stage two of four-stage process, with stage five being the handover to the local authority, rather than what was originally being suggested in 2017. I have addressed that point on a number of occasions in the Dáil. It is a far bigger scheme. Actually, since Storm Babet, led by Cork County Council as the lead authority, and with the consulting engineers Arup, we have used the data that has been collected on foot of Storm Babet to make sure that the scheme as it was designed would have protected the properties had it been built. That work is almost finished and I think it is fair to say that now that it is almost concluded, it would have succeeded. It is a totally different scheme.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

The question I asked was whether it will take nine years for the defences to be put in place.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

I am not going to answer that question because I do not know how long it is going to take to get planning permission. Going back to the point raised by Deputy Durkan, I have purposely stated, at this committee and in replies to parliamentary questions from other Deputies, that I am not going to put a timeline on it.

We are working with Cork County Council to get the planning process finished as soon as possible and thereafter to appoint contractors for the construction. As for giving a notional date for completion today, I am not in a position to do so. I do not do that for any scheme.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

The people from Midleton listening to this discussion will be heartbroken that the Minister of State cannot even confirm a completion date after nine years.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

The people in Midleton want to hear the facts rather than the politicisation of the issue, which is unfortunately what is happening here. I know that part of Cork very well and have a lot of family connections there. The people there want to know that there is a commitment in terms of finance, which there is. They also want to know that the scheme that is proposed to be developed will protect them in a Storm Babet-type situation. That work is almost concluded and will be given to Cork County Council. Thereafter, they want to be certain that when a planning application is lodged, it has a likely chance of succeeding. Unfortunately, in too many locations around the country at present - I am thinking of Lough Funshinagh and the road into Blackpool in Cork city - indicative dates are given in the absence of a planning objection or a judicial review, as the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, referred to in the preceding session, and then the project does not happen.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

If the Minister of State does not understand that the primary concern of the people of Midleton at the moment is when this relief scheme will be built, there is a major difficulty and a major disconnect between him and the people. This project is their primary concern.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

That is a charge, not a question. I do not know how the Deputy could deduce the charge based on what I said. He has decided to politicise this issue for the benefit of his local election candidate. The best of luck to them. Most of the TDs and councillors in Cork East have decided not to play politics with this. Most of them are more concerned with making sure we get to a situation where planning permission is applied for and it comes through, as is the case down the road in Glanmire, rather than playing politics with the issue like the Deputy is doing.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I understand why the Minister of State is defensive.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

I am not defensive.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I would be defensive too if I was in a situation where I could not give a guarantee on this scheme since 2017. I ask the Minister of State to allow me to continue. He has had a good shot at it. The process started seven years ago.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

That is not true. This is the second time the Deputy has said it and it is not true.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Again, Minister of State-----

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Tóibín has asked his question.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

It is a totally different scheme. The Deputy can say what he is saying as often as he wants, and maybe 96FM or C103 will pick up on it. We are not talking about the same scheme.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

This is getting tiresome.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

I agree with the Deputy on that.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I am trying to get answers. If we are not going to have this scheme completed within the nine-year period, what interim measures will the Minister of State put in place to make sure people are not inundated with water again in the meantime?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

If the Deputy had met with people in Cork County Council, he would know they are currently working up a series of proposals with the Office of Public Works, like we do in most towns, such as Bantry, where there is a large flood relief scheme that will take a long time to deliver. The council is working with the consulting engineers and our engineers on interim measures, which might include floodgates, non-return valves and barriers. Some work has already been done in the channel. The Office of Public Works will be a funding agent, as we are in most towns where there are large-scale projects involving a significant gap between the planning and delivery stages.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

To clarify, is it the case that the Minister of State does not have specific interim proposals for defences?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Cork County Council is the lead authority on this and it is working up a proposal for the Office of Public Works. I understand it will be with us within weeks. Once it is done, we certainly will respond to it on the basis of interim measures.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I will move on to accommodation for asylum seekers. In June 2022, the Government promised to deliver rapid-build homes within a short time to accommodate Ukrainians living here. My understanding is that less than half the promised number have been built. Is that correct?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

We reached out at the time to every entity that owns public land in Ireland, including all the local authorities. We used some of our own land, we used land from the Land Development Agency, LDA, and we got some local authority land. The number of completions are as follows: 64 units in Mahon in Cork, completed on 16 June 2023; 28 units in Cavan, on an OPW site, completed on 29 August; an OPW site in Thurles, completed on 23 August; in Sligo-----

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

How many units were built in Thurles?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

A total of 62 were built there. The other completed projects are: Doorly Park in Sligo, a Sligo County Council site, with 22 units; 28 units in Claremorris, County Mayo, completed last August; 42 units in Rathdowney, County Laois, which is an LDA site; and 64 units in Clonminch, County Offaly. We are now into the second phase of delivery. These projects include Charleville, County Cork, which is under construction; Ballinasloe, County Galway, where 64 units are due to go to construction shortly; and Backweston, which is near Deputy Durkan's area but located in County Dublin, where 132 units are almost completed. Between phases 1 and 2, there are 448 units.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

As of now, however, less than half of what was promised in June 2022 has been delivered.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

No, the original provision was 500, which was increased thereafter to 700. We have substantially completed almost 450 of those units.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Only 300 are fully completed.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

I listed the developments in which people are living. In the case of the remaining developments, in Charleville, Ballinasloe and Backweston, we hope to have people living there in the first quarter.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Another issue I want to raise concerns a project in which I am not sure whether the OPW is involved. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, has procured 37 buildings for the provision of accommodation for asylum seekers and people from Ukraine. My understanding from the reply to a parliamentary question I put to him is that only one of those buildings has been repurposed. At least 20 of them were bought this time last year. It seems startling how slowly these buildings are being put into use.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

I cannot answer for accommodation issues that are within the remit of the Department of children.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I was not sure whether the OPW is involved. It often manages buildings for other Departments.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

It does, and we are building a substantial amount of accommodation for the Department of children under the Ukrainian directive.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

In response to a parliamentary question I put into the Minister of State last November, he admitted that the OPW had 87 empty buildings across the country. Has there been an improvement since then in that figure?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

As I have said on a number of occasions at this committee, in the case of a lot of the buildings we have, there are huge title issues. They include old Garda stations that, once upon a time, were RIC stations that might not have title. They might have been taken off an estate or whatever. There is one such building in my constituency, the tile of which needs to be established before it can be disposed of. We have had some very willing local authorities that have taken on some of these buildings and, regrettably, we also have some not so willing local authorities that have not taken on buildings in their areas. As a result, we have gone to auction on a number of properties in recent years.

I will give the Deputy the lowdown on the current numbers. There are 30 former Garda stations, two former Garda residences, ten Coast Guard properties, two customs properties, one meteorological station and nine others. That gives a total of 54, which is a significant reduction over the past number of years. The indicative schedule for properties we will dispose of in 2024 is as follows: Kiltullagh Garda station, County Galway, will go to auction; Shanagolden and Galbally stations in County Limerick, in my constituency, will transfer to the local authority; Rosmuck, County Galway, will transfer; Bunbeg, County Donegal, will go to auction; Mayorstone, Limerick, will transfer; Raphoe, County Donegal, will transfer to the education and training board, ETB; Buncrana, County Donegal, will transfer to the county council; Kill o' the Grange, Dublin, will transfer to the local authority; Malin, Donegal, will transfer; Broadford, County Clare, will go to auction; Ballyforan, County Roscommon, will go to auction; the former Coast Guard cottages and station in Crosshaven, County Cork, will transfer; Blackrock Road in Cork city will transfer; the former Garda Station and residence in Ballygurteen, County Cork, will transfer; Greencastle, County Donegal, is to be sold by private treaty; Mountbellew, County Galway, will go to auction; and Castlecomer, County Kilkenny, in the Chairman's constituency, will transfer to Kilkenny County Council. There will also be some miscellaneous transactions involving land. They include the former Garda station site in Scotstown, County Monaghan, which will transfer to the local authority, and Rosslare Harbour, Wexford, which is under consideration at this time by Wexford County Council. All the buildings I have listed will be dealt with this year, with a total estimated value of more than €4 million.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I wish to make a final point on that. At a time when crime and antisocial behaviour are significant issues in so many communities, it is striking that so many Garda stations are being sold off by the State as a result of them being closed in the past ten years.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank the Minister of State for this statement. It will be no surprise to him that I want to discuss Crossmolina. Has there been any response from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform on Crossmolina since the most recent supplementary information was given on 17 November?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

No. The Deputy is right that on 17 November we issued a report to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform which addressed the issues of supplementary information it required under environmental impact assessment. It would not be appropriate or the norm for us to query that Department as it is the planning authority. The Minister at the Department is acutely aware of the issue in Crossmolina and we are hoping to get an answer soon.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Not half as much as the people in Crossmolina are hoping to get an answer soon. The Minister of State knows this has been going on since 2015. It is crazy. It has been said that when supplementary information is received, a period of public consultation is then legally required. After that information comes back, is a public consultation required at that stage?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

As the Deputy will appreciate, it is a matter for the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform as the planning authority here with regard to the significance or otherwise of the information that is submitted. If it, as the planning authority, deems it to be significant beyond what would normally be submitted by way of further information, there may be a requirement for a public consultation. However, we have not received any request or suggestion from that Department with regard to Crossmolina.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Does that mean it is not set down as a rule that there must be a consultation?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

It is based on the significance. There have been cases in the past where significant further information was required to go on public display and a period of public consultation.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Why is clearance not given prior to any public consultation from that Department?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

The project is specific. In an ideal world, notwithstanding the merits of the Arterial Drainage Act which Deputy Durkan alluded to a while ago, I would prefer to see these applications made to the likes of An Bord Pleanála. If an application for a flood relief scheme goes through Part 10 of the Local Government Act, we know the definite timeframes as a result. Unfortunately, with an historical development and how it came about in the first place, the Arterial Drainage Act does not have the timeframes the Deputy and I would expect from a normal planning application. We have discussed this internally, but we are not a planning authority. We have made our views known to the relevant planning authorities in respect of flood relief schemes. Over time it would be better to move it to An Bord Pleanála. While it might not give greater certainty with regard to outcome, it would give greater certainty with regard to time.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Obviously, Crossmolina has had no outcome since 2015 - almost ten years.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

At the same time, notwithstanding the problems on the Deel river in Crossmolina, in other locations around the country the Act has been used very successfully and works are under construction. King's Island in Limerick city will probably go to tender this year. Once we get a positive answer from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform in the context of the most recent information we have submitted, I am confident we will be able to put the wheels in motion with regard to tendering, appointment of contractors and commencement as quickly as possible thereafter. This is not a money issue. This is a big scheme but it is not a money issue. The projected cost of the scheme is €15 million, which is not small. It has gone up considerably owing to inflation and everything else. It will not be a money issue.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I move on to the contest and impact indicators there. Under the third indicator, financial damages avoided, the first has remained the same despite being a cumulative figure over 2022 and 2023. Why has that not increased?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

What page is the Deputy on there?

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

It is the third indicator. I do not think we have page numbers on this.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Is it key outputs for public service activities?

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Does the Minister of State see it?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

It refers to cumulative financial damages avoided by the completion of-----

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Why has the figure not increased despite the additional flood relief schemes?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

In recent years we have had some delays. I would imagine that in the coming years, as we see completions such as in Templemore, Ashbourne and a couple of others which will actually be completed this year, that will substantially raise the number of properties that are protected. More are currently under construction such as Springfield, Clonlara in County Clare. As they come on board and are given over to the local authority, that figure will increase.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I would hope so. In A5, the flood risk management covers the cost of flood relief schemes and compensation. What is the breakdown of the flood relief cost versus the compensation in 2022 and 2023?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

When the Deputy says compensation, is she is talking about the schemes for businesses and homeowners?

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Yes.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

I do not have those but I can get them for her. I can provide some examples in correspondence to the Deputy. For instance, we can consider what might have happened in Mallow, Fermoy and Clonmel in the absence of flood relief schemes. We can extrapolate based on the storms in Munster in the middle of last year. Those three towns would definitely have flooded in the absence of the schemes. We can do an extrapolation of that. It is an exercise that would take a bit of time but we can certainly do it and give the Deputy back the numbers.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

If the Minister of State can do that and give it back to the committee, it would be great. Under A5, €85.5 million was spent in 2022 and that dropped off substantially in 2023 to €59 million. The allocation is now back up to €82.7 million. What was the reason for the drop-off in spending?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

In a word, planning. We have been ambitious to try to make sure we get more schemes animated through a design process. Some have gone down the road of a judicial review or an objection. For example, Blackpool is a village within the centre of Cork city. That is a large and complicated scheme which has been delayed on the basis of environmental considerations. We would have profiled that money because it had permission. We are coming out of those difficulties. Of the ones we have already identified, Morrison's Island in Cork is a big one. It now has all the permissions, thankfully. We are the funder and Cork City Council is the lead agent. That will be an enormous scheme and it is profiled to start, as is King's Island in Limerick city. Up to now, they have had outlier issues which have finally been resolved. They have all of their consents in place. That will increase considerably the money we spend in 2024, 2025, 2026 and beyond. There are also others.

The Whitechurch and Poddle flood alleviation schemes are being done by direct labour by the Office of Public Works. I should have said that direct labour gives us flexibility that appointing contractors does not give us because where changes need to be made, like in Athlone, we have a crew of personnel on site who can be flexible in adapting their needs. Obviously, we do not need to go to tender when they are our own crews. However, they are limited and small in number. They are a very valuable resource as well.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Is the Minister of State concerned about the estimated €19 billion hole in the NDP?

I have asked that of the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, when he has been here previously. He says it will not be as much as that. What would the Minister of State estimate it to be? IFAC says it is €19 billion.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

I am flattered to be asked but I am not a Minister of State at the Department of public expenditure and reform.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

In terms of what the Minister of State has to deliver-----

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

On what we have to deliver, notwithstanding the difficulties that we have, we are well resourced both on our estate side and our climate adaptation side. In 2023, we overshot the runway for capital. I have often been in front of this committee and other committees. I would say it is always better to ask for forgiveness than permission. As a Minister of State and a public representative, I believe it is important that public bodies are spending money that is assigned for capital and even maybe going further. That is why I was in before Christmas looking for a Revised Estimate. We will do the same this year, primarily because there are more schemes, particularly relating to flood risk, coming out of planning permission that had been stuck in a logjam for a while, which we will need money for.

I am satisfied with the resource level we have going forward. We have ongoing bilateral engagement at official level between the Department of public expenditure and reform and the Office of Public Works on this issue. I will have a meeting with the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, shortly. In general, I am satisfied with regard to what we have the capacity and capability to do. The other thing that I have mentioned here before is that, notwithstanding all the issues with planning, one of the main impediments to delivery is specialist personnel. That is not only an issue in the public sector but in the private sector too. Only a limited number of hydrologists are available to us. I was in the Netherlands before Christmas and it has the very same problems that we have. People say that they are the experts with regard to keeping water out of people's houses. Experts in environmental considerations, whether environmental specialist engineers or hydrologists, are not easily got. That is putting a significant impediment on the delivery of our ambition.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

What workforce planning are we doing to make sure we have the number and that expertise?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

We have had positive engagement with the Minister, Deputy Harris, regarding young school-leavers. It involves using the likes of Engineers Ireland to promote the prospect of careers in the public sector, including specialist careers that will add value to what we need to do here. This is not just an OPW issue. I am sure if the Railway Procurement Agency, or TII, whatever it is called, was in front of the committee, it would say the same thing. We need more young people, through the technological universities or other universities, to look at civil engineering and the specialist disciplines in a way in which they have not looked at them yet. At a micro level in the OPW, we have a significant apprenticeship programme which was resurrected in 2011 at the height of the collapse. We also have much engagement with universities and individual students to encourage them into this discipline, because it is a fulfilling and rewarding career.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Have the outcomes from it been measured? What progress has been made on what we need to deliver?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

We are in a competitive market for specialists and engineers. I am not going to teach the Deputy how to suck eggs, as they say. We cannot compete with some of the private sector salaries that can be offered. There is no point in saying otherwise. What we offer which is totally different from the private sector is a holistic career, with opportunities for continuing professional development, lifelong education, prospects when they finish working for the Office of Public Works and mobility. People cannot get that in the private sector. As somebody who has worked in the private sector in an engineering capacity and now in the Office of Public Works, it is like comparing apples with oranges.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I know what the Minister of State is saying but we have to increase the pool. I want to ask him about the 330 leases that we paid €106 million for in rent last year. Is there a plan or strategy in place to reduce the reliance on leased properties? Is it an explicit aim of the OPW to move away from leasing, which is recognised as the most expensive option?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

As I said in the Dáil, including to Deputy Connolly, who has a keen interest in this, it is not a case of either-or from our point of view. Depending on where the buildings are and the needs of a particular Government Department, it is not a case of either-or but of lending it. We acquired a very significant building in Dublin before Christmas and closed its sale for a use that was identified to us by Government Departments expanding and some relocating. It is not a case of either-or. We want to keep our options open. For instance, if we have a tribunal of inquiry sitting for a short period, it might make more sense for us to take a short-term lease on a building than to acquire a building. We are constantly monitoring the market and looking to see what is coming up for sale. We are also looking at consolidating space.

In the period that I have been a Minister of State, the Civil Service has expanded by about 15%, which is significant. Every single Accounting Officer will be responsible for the divvying out of her or his workstations to make sure that the optimum is being used. The OPW does not dish out the workspaces. That is up to the Secretary General or the director of each section of a Department. It is up to us to respond to the business cases that are laid down by Government Departments, negotiate on their behalf and manage it on behalf of the State. It is a combination of both. We have shrunk them considerably and intend to shrink them further, but it is not our intention to get rid of them.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

The OPW had five new leases last year for the cost of €8.4 million. We will take it up on another day.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Maybe Deputy Conway-Walsh can ask a question after I ask these questions.

An Cathaoirleach

We have to finish at 5 p.m.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I am conscious that we have to finish at 5 p.m. but I did interrupt the Deputy. I have two brief questions. I will return to issues that I have raised with the Minister of State for a number of years. There are flooding issues in Donegal that are part of the overall Estimates issue. The first relates to Castlefin. The Minister of State is familiar with this. I have raised it. Castlefin has flooded on a number of occasions. I will not go through the history again. What has happened is appalling. Castlefin flooded again as a result of Storm Jocelyn. I was in Castlefin and saw the damage that was done to homes, properties and businesses. I was on the N15, which is the main road there, at McGlynn's Restaurant. I saw the issues with the water that was coming down and the danger there. Part of this is part of the overall Castlefin flood relief scheme but, with our local councillor, Gary Doherty, who lives in Castlefin and knows this area, we stood in the road and looked at the damage that was being done and the risk to the properties there.

It is clear that this section needs to be prioritised and completed before the rest of the works. The N15 requires a new culvert across the national primary road and a non-return valve downstream to prevent water from backing up at this point. That would alleviate the pressure on businesses and households in that area. I have been asked to highlight that this has no impact on the River Finn or the special area of conservation. Therefore, this should be able to proceed while we are going through the motions on the other Castlefin flood relief scheme, which is a wider scheme, but this is part of it. I ask the Minister of State to think outside the box. These businesses were not flooded the last time around but they were very close to it. They are wondering if this is the third time they will be hit like this. I ask the Minister of State to look at the issue with Castlefin. Will he give a response on that first?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

In response to another Deputy, I will address when a local authority proposes interim measures to the Office of Public Works, as Donegal County Council has. It has a good relationship with us, built up over many years. If there are interim measures that it feels would be of benefit to properties in the interim, during the planning stage, prior to construction and during construction, we routinely do those interim measures, in what are called the minor works flood relief schemes. We have a very good relationship with Donegal County Council. We will ask it if it has a proposal for minor works and we will consider it.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I appreciate that the Department will make contact. That is what we are looking at. We need to look to see that the next storm - God knows when it will come - does not impact on those floods if they can be prevented.

I am conscious there are a lot of delays in rolling out these schemes at different stages. Burnfoot is a good example of delays. I think everybody was up at the time Burnfoot flooded. It was terrible. A large number of properties were affected. The Government landed with helicopters and all the rest. Much of the damage done at that time to properties such as in Swan Park has been rectified. The issue is the Burnfoot flood relief scheme still has not progressed. It is currently at stage 1. I understand we are talking about 2025, eight years after the flood, for these houses to be protected. The Minister of State may be aware that eight families were vacated from their council homes due to the flooding in August 2017. These properties remain vacant in the middle of a housing crisis, with those still resident in the area remaining at risk from future flooding. Will the Minister of State provide an update on the Burnfoot flood relief scheme? I am aware that in a response to my colleague, Deputy Mac Lochlainn, in October last year, the Minister of State agreed to meet members of the Inishowen municipal district. I know Jack Murray, a councillor who was on the ground with me at the time, is keen for that to happen. Will the Minister of State commit to meeting them? If so, when is that planned?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

To take the last point first, I had a forced sabbatical during the summer.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

We are glad to see the Minister of State back.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

I thank the Deputy. I have meetings throughout the country I want to get back to. Donegal is one of them. We have a number of projects concerning the built environment, estate management and flood relief that we want to pursue. I will do that as quickly as I can. My other role involves the Gaeltacht, so I am sure the Deputy probably wants to cart me all over Donegal the day I am there, trí Bhéarla agus trí Ghaeilge. There was an underwater archaeological impact assessment. I have read so many of these reports with regard to different towns and villages. As the Deputy said, it is not straightforward. It is very complicated. The date we last gave Deputy Mac Lochlainn is the one we are at, which is November 2025. I will be happy to meet the community when I am there.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Will the Minister of State meet councillors when he is there?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

I normally meet the local authority and elected representatives in the area informally and then meet some residents. We have a tried and tested routine and it works well.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I appreciate that. Donegal is a big county. I have not even touched on Donegal town and there are other flood relief schemes. For Burnfoot, the commitment is to meet elected representatives in the electoral area, is that right?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

We will do that.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Will the Minister of State keep me informed when he has an indication of when he can do that?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Unless the Deputy is preparing to pair with me on a Wednesday, I presume it will be some day that-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I will talk to our Whip, who is very interested in getting the Minister of State up to Burnfoot. You never know what could happen.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Mi casa es tu casa.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Íontach maith.

An Cathaoirleach

I have a few things I wish to put to the Minister of State on the record. That 9th century item described as a rare manuscript and exercise book, "Pangur Bán", went a fair distance in considering trying to get it to Ireland and having it displayed at Kilkenny Castle, to the extent that a request was made to those who hold the book at present. I am disappointed that did not happen. Earlier, when I spoke, the Minister of State said there was a possibility of another Department taking it up. Is that not an example of Departments working in silos? Would the Department not just ask them? The initial request was made by the collection team in the OPW. It wrote and asked for it to be brought to Kilkenny. There is a connection with Cartoon Saloon in Kilkenny city and what it did arising out of the works in that rare document. Perhaps the Minister of State would revisit the matter. It would not cost the State a fortune. It is the management of the manuscript and its safe return. Surely to God it is not beyond the OPW to engage with the Minister, Deputy Martin, or somebody else.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Like I said in the interlude, I have no difficulty at all with that. I must confess I had never heard of it until the Cathaoirleach originally corresponded with me about it. It sounds like an interesting project. While the OPW would provide the venue, we are not book collectors. We are not the National Library or the National Gallery.

An Cathaoirleach

No, but your collection team did write.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

I know, but that being said, if we have to get the National Archives or the National Library together with the OPW, I presume Kilkenny Castle would be the optimal location.

An Cathaoirleach

It is.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

I commit that we will hold a discussion between the OPW, the National Library, National Archives and Kilkenny Castle to see if this can be advanced.

An Cathaoirleach

It cannot be impossible. A question occurred to me when looking at the level of water passing through Kilkenny city regarding the flood relief scheme. What is the arrangement for maintenance of the scheme, particularly of the prefabricated walls at the side of the river? You could see the flood ripping through the river basin. I wonder about damage to those walls at a lower level and other constructions that are part of that scheme. Who monitors the maintenance?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

I will have to get back to the Cathaoirleach on the specifics. It could be the Office of Public Works if it is on an arterial drainage channel or it could be the local authority if it was handed over to it. We have developed a protocol in recent years in which post-completion is as important as completion. We want to make sure there is sufficient money for preventative maintenance. Ordinarily, that would come from the Office of Public Works. If the local authority has a pump or beacon that has gone or an underpinning that has washed away, it needs sufficient money to carry out the works. It would normally not have that. It can do that in conjunction with us. However, it requires an annualised inspection programme. We developed a scheme over recent years. It will start with Cork County Council as it has a large number. I pay tribute to the local authority flood risk consultative group, who are basically the engineers at the coalface in all local authorities. They meet regularly and discuss issues of this nature to show that if there is an ongoing problem with a pump, sump, underpinning, wall or whatever, there is a sufficient amount of money in place. It should not come as a surprise. That is why inspection programmes are vital. They also give assurance to the insurance industry that not only does the scheme meet the one-in-100-year event criteria but also that there is sufficient ongoing maintenance. We are at the pilot stage. It will be rolled out across the rest of the local authorities. I am not sure what the story is with Kilkenny County Council, but if a local authority has concerns regarding preventative or ongoing maintenance, moneys are available from the OPW to assist with that work.

An Cathaoirleach

I would be concerned about the expertise. A significant amount of money - I think the end figure was €47 million - was spent on the Kilkenny flood relief scheme. I would imagine the volume of water tearing through the centre of the city is doing damage somewhere to those walls. It is about protecting the investment.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

No more than in Midleton, the Office of Public works and local authorities design the scheme according to the worst recorded event. That is why Arup is using data from Storm Babet in Midleton to make sure we design to the worst recent event. There is no point in not taking the metrics into account from the worst recent event, proceeding with something substandard and, in 18 months, when there is another event, ending up with the town under 4 ft of water and everybody saying it was a total waste of money. While Deputy Tóibín might be of the opinion it is more important to just drive ahead, that is not what we will do. In Kilkenny, it will have been no different. The most recent available peak data in Kilkenny city concerning the one-in-100-year event will have been looked at.

The scheme was designed to withstand that.

An Cathaoirleach

The Minister of State mentioned apprentices in the OPW. The OPW always had a great record of encouraging apprenticeships. I am thinking of the skills required to restore various historic monuments and so on. Does the OPW still go ahead with that?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Absolutely.

An Cathaoirleach

The Minister of State mentioned that earlier, which is why I wanted to ask him about it. It is not just those skills-----

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

No. We have apprentice machine drivers working on flood risk, apprentice joiners, carpenters, stonemasons, upholsterers-----

An Cathaoirleach

Does the OPW get a good response to that?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Absolutely. There is no doubt it is a fantastic career. It is a challenging environment, however. There are some skills, particularly in stonemasonry, in the private and public sector. Only a handful of people in this country are able to work on the Corinthian and Ionic capitals on top of columns in Georgian buildings. Even transferring that knowledge ó ghlúin go glúin is a difficulty because as people retire, the number of master craftspeople who are available, whether they are plasterers or painters, or people who have those skill sets, is diminishing. Everybody wants their children to go to university when they might be far better off, in many cases, had they followed an apprenticeship route. There is a big drive around apprenticeships. Some of our people have gone on to lead the organisation having entered it as apprentices. We are now encouraging apprenticeships. We hope, under the Public Service Apprenticeship Plan for 2021-25, to have 750 apprentices by 2025. That includes the local authorities. Even in the area where I live, Mungret, we have apprentice machine drivers working on rivers beside master craftspeople and learning from them on the job. It is something that is extremely valuable.

An Cathaoirleach

It is.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

It is undervalued, to be honest.

An Cathaoirleach

Is Bennettsbridge Garda station on the OPW list?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

It is not on the one I read out anyway.

An Cathaoirleach

Is it still in OPW ownership?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

If it is a Garda station it is, unless there is a lease, which is highly unlikely, or the Garda Commissioner wants to retain it for Garda purposes, and I will check that for the Cathaoirleach, which has happened in some parts of the country.

An Cathaoirleach

I do not think the station is there anymore. It is just the building.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

We can come back to the Cathaoirleach on that.

An Cathaoirleach

I have another question, which the Minister of State can come back to me on if he wishes. The OPW has so many historic buildings. I spoke in the Dáil today about the interest in having a centre of excellence for Norman history, the study of the Norman period and, associated with that, a Norman museum. Is the OPW open to proposals around something like that, which would involve the use of one of its historic buildings? This is in order to enhance the education around that period in all these buildings we have standing that people visit, to give them that sense of history, where it all happened and how it all came about, and that experience of a Norman museum to create and feed into the tourism industry.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Without landing the organisation in it, the answer is "Yes". We are open to everything. We have Reginald's Tower-----

An Cathaoirleach

It gives life to the OPW's buildings.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Absolutely. It is in our interests to get as many people through these buildings as possible. Whatever it is we engage with local communities on, whether it relates to Christmas markets, educational programmes or whatever, we are certainly open to anything that puts a greater number of people through buildings for educational purposes, once the integrity of the building is not in any way compromised.

An Cathaoirleach

How is Mount Congreve-----

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

In Waterford.

An Cathaoirleach

How is it going there?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Mount Congreve is not owned by the OPW but it is in a relationship with it. Mount Congreve is run by a trust. We support it and do a lot of work on it.

An Cathaoirleach

It is a trust that is established.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

If I had my way, and it is above my paygrade, many buildings in public ownership that add significant historical value to the country as a whole should be in the proper clean ownership of the OPW. I am not talking about Mount Congreve in isolation or any such site. Over the past 200-odd years, we have maintained the historical value of our building network. Some organisations, whether they are trusts or receive public finance or whatever, struggle. Mount Congreve is not one that struggles and is very successful. However, if we look at the National Trust in the UK, all its historic sites are umbrellaed and there is very clean ownership of them, which has been well established. If we go back far enough, the OPW was split up, long before I was a boy, when certain people above my paygrade decided it was better to split it and have a national monuments section and a national maintenance section. Whether that is the best way to present and look after our national monuments and historical properties is a debatable point. I would certainly favour the older system, to be honest.

An Cathaoirleach

It is a is a fantastic property.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

It is. It is magnificent.

An Cathaoirleach

I was there a few times when it was in use.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

I was asked last night, for instance, why the home of Charles Stewart Parnell is not in the charge of the OPW. I said that it was a good question and if the person asking it found out the answer to come back to me.

An Cathaoirleach

What is the grant? The Revised Estimates just state that payments to Mount Congreve are included for the first time. What sort of payments is the OPW committed to year on year?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

An increase to €400,000 per annum was sought in the 2023 Estimates and €250,000 was provided for in the 2024 Estimates. Waterford City and County Council has sought an extension to the agreement until 2028 with the provision of €250,000 in each of the years from 2025 to 2027. Great credit has to go to that council as well. This has been substantially funded by the Department of Rural and Community Development.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the Department committed to give Mount Congreve a grant every year? Is it based on what is needed every year? It is not stated in the-----

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

We are not going to see it close down. I am sure, as Chairman of the finance committee, he will not allow it to be closed down.

An Cathaoirleach

No, it is not that. I fought hard for it from the beginning. I see service charges and utilities for Kilkenny Castle are mentioned. Is that just the general running costs?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

On the purchase of sites and buildings under B.5, what is the OPW planning to purchase?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Is this for 2024?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

At the end of last year, we purchased a building for use by a Department not too far away from here. I presume-----

An Cathaoirleach

All right. It is for that type of purchase. It is for-----

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

It is for State accommodation.

An Cathaoirleach

That is all right. That is all I wanted to know.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

One relates to the purchase of a property in Sligo town. There are also ones in Mullingar and Drogheda so these are all in rural locations.

An Cathaoirleach

It is generally for a Department or some use-----

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Yes, expansion.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask the Minister of State to please forward any information he committed to give to members at his earliest convenience. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will adjourn until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 7 February. I thank the Minister of State and his officials for attending.