Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 28 Feb 2024

Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office (Revised)

The Minister of State has a long opening statement, so perhaps she will give us an idea of it as we go along. We can take it as read. No apologies have been received. Members might be online. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, and her officials. We will be dealing with a Revised Estimate.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are reminded of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the place Parliament has chosen to sit - today it is Leinster House – in order to participate in public meetings. Members will not be allowed to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement.

I refer to the 2024 Revised Estimates for the Department of the Taoiseach. The Dáil has ordered that the Revised Estimate in respect of the following Vote be referred to this select committee for consideration: Vote 4 – the Central Statistics Office. Would the Minister of State like to give us an opening comment?

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to appear before the select committee as members consider the Revised Estimate for Vote 4.

As Ireland’s national statistical institute, the Central Statistics Office is an independent office under the Statistics Act 1993, and is responsible for the production, co-ordination and qualitative oversight of official statistics for Ireland. The CSO provides independent statistical information to support and promote understanding and debate across government, business and society. The CSO’s director general acts independently as per the 1993 Act and exercises sole responsibility in professional statistical matters. Under EU legislation, he also has responsibility for co-ordinating and overseeing the quality of all European official statistics in Ireland. The CSO provides high-quality statistics, independent insight and information for all in an accessible and user-friendly manner.

Official statistics are a public good and an essential input to creating an informed society for the people of Ireland. The digitalisation of State services and supports has created a rich data resource and the CSO is increasingly taking a leadership role to extract value from that data. Increasingly, the CSO is providing a suite of data and statistical services to the broader civil and public service.

This move towards a cross-organisational co-ordinator role across the entire civil and public service is mandated in both the European regulation on statistics and in the Statistics Act 1993. The development of this co-ordination role has been enabled by the increasing maturity of the Irish data ecosystem. This maturity has been driven by the ongoing focus on the development of administrative data across the system and, in particular, through the greater use of unique person identifiers, such as PPS numbers; place identifiers, like eircodes; and business identifiers. The greater use of this national data infrastructure, NDI, allows for the creation of multiple linked and integrated data that have been used in areas such as health, housing and the environment. This, in turn, has helped to inform Ireland’s response to events such as the Covid-19 pandemic and the Ukrainian humanitarian effort.

The increasing maturity of the data ecosystem allows the CSO to leverage the State’s administrative data stock to develop composite data sources tailored to a specific policy need. As Government Departments and offices work to extract the insights to help to inform their policy development and evaluation, the CSO is experiencing increasing demands for its expert data service and data supports. The CSO, in line with international norms, uses the term "data stewardship" to encompass all the diverse supports and services required in this co-ordination role. The Statistics Act 1993 underpins this co-ordination role and creates the legislative frameworks that provide for access to administrative data holdings in the civil and public service. The Act requires any public authority to consult and co-operate with the CSO for the purpose of assessing the potential of records for use in the production of official statistics. It also stipulates a consultation process where there is a proposal to introduce, revise or extend any system for the storage and retrieval of information or to undertake a statistical survey.

The CSO is part of the broader European and international statistical system. Its processes and methodologies are subject to a system of quality assurance by Eurostat to ensure that all statistics produced meet the required quality and methodological standards.

The CSO also adheres to the European statistics code of practice. Its compliance with the code of practice is periodically examined through a peer review process led by a team of experts from across the European statistical system. The peer review process builds on the European statistical system quality framework and provides the necessary assurances and transparency to users that official statistics are compiled in an objective and independent manner and in accordance with sound statistical principles and standards. The most recent European statistical peer review took place in February 2022 and found that the CSO is fully compliant with the European statistics code of practice.

There is a significant international dimension to the work of the CSO. As a member of the European statistical system, the CSO participates in a wide range of EU groups relating to the development of harmonised statistical methodology, the drafting of statistical legislation and the assessment of statistical standards and quality. The CSO currently holds the chairmanship of the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe and takes a leading role in a high-level group on the modernisation of official statistics, which drives many of the advancements of statistical standards and quality.

Turning to CSO’s deliverables in 2023, the census of population remains a flagship product. It is the CSO’s largest data collection survey, reaching every household in the State. As members know, the census was deferred in 2021 due to Covid-19 and instead took place in April 2022. The CSO published the main findings of census 2022 in May 2023, followed by a series of thematic releases focusing on subjects such as housing, households, diversity and disability. Planning is well under way for census 2027 with a public consultation held last year on new questions or rewording of census 2022 questions for Ireland’s next census. The CSO is also working to develop a digital-first census to enable citizens to have the option to complete the 2027 census of population online. The CSO is also in the process of reviewing how census-type population figures are produced. The National Statistics Board recently held a seminar in Dublin Castle on the future of how censuses are conducted in Ireland with a broad audience of statistical users, policymakers, stakeholders and interested parties from across Irish society.

Beyond the census, the CSO continues to expand its scope and in 2023 published results from the national survey on the prevalence of sexual violence in Ireland. The safety of the person survey involved the collection of highly sensitive personal data from householders in a manner which is confidential, ethical and designed to support accurate and reliable survey results. The CSO published the first of these results in April 2023. The CSO also took over the growing up in Ireland survey from the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, in 2023.

Business and social data collection continues to be a key activity for the CSO. The survey on income and living conditions was published in February, providing a number of key national poverty indicators, such as the at-risk-of-poverty rate, the consistent poverty rate and rates of enforced deprivation. The survey will also ensure the consumer price index, CPI, continues to be based on up-to-date household expenditure patterns. As the official measure of inflation, the CPI has taken on an increased importance in the current inflationary cycle. The CSO released its updated basket of goods for the CPI on 15 February and it highlighted the relevance of the CPI in tracking the cost of living, as well as the social interest in how it tracks changes in taste and technology over time.

Throughout the course of the pandemic, the CSO provided statistical and analytical expertise, new data services and a safe and secure environment to support data analysis, epidemiological modelling and real-time evaluation and insight on trends and issues. In the same way, the CSO is central to the data response to the Ukrainian humanitarian efforts, producing weekly situation reports to the senior officials group and onward provision of data to the Cabinet subcommittee with a series of public releases on the theme of arrivals from Ukraine in Ireland. The CSO has also met with the key data departments and is working with them on the provision of further data to provide potential additional insight and has already produced regular reports on arrivals from Ukraine.

The CSO has also continued to develop new interactive graphics, infographics and new formats, such as bulletins and its frontier series. These outputs help to provide the additional insight needed by the public, businesses and policymakers across more general social, economic and environmental issues. The CSO published 477 outputs last year. Of these 477 releases, 38 were new. Many of the CSO’s new releases have been introduced under the banner of its new frontier series. These outputs use new methods that are under development and-or data sources that may be incomplete. Publishing outputs under the frontier series allows the CSO to provide useful new information to users and get informed feedback on these new methods and outputs, while at the same time making sure that the limitations are well explained and understood. Within this context, the CSO is now publishing flash or early estimates of some key economic indicators such as GDP, harmonised index of consumer prices and employment using a mixture of primary and secondary data sources. Many of the developments have been facilitated by the increased availability of real-time public sector data, including Revenue’s PAYE modernisation payroll data and data from online services.

The CSO continues to publish key economic indicators via the consumer price index and harmonised index of consumer prices; the monthly exports and imports of goods; the quarterly national accounts; government deficit and debt; the quarterly balance of payments; the labour force survey; the monthly unemployment and live register statistics; the survey on income and living conditions; births, deaths and population estimates; the wholesale price index; monthly industrial production and turnover; and the retail sales index, among others.

Being both trustworthy and confidential are core strategic values for the CSO with data security and confidentiality strongly embedded into the CSO culture. Significant attention and awareness is allocated to the protection of CSO data and information systems, and continual development of security capability is crucial.

The CSO’s work also supports the Civil Service renewal action plan’s themes of digital first and embedding innovation and evidence-informed policy and services. The CSO has the unique expertise to support and deliver on both these themes within the CSO itself and across the Civil Service. The CSO is also currently undergoing an organisational capabilities review, the recommendations of which will be used to guide further strategic change within the organisation.

Official statistics are an essential part in creating an informed society for the people of Ireland. The CSO’s data is indispensable in evidence-based policy decisions taken in Ireland. The fundamental statistical principles of independence, timeliness, accessibility, quality and confidentiality that lie at the heart of official statistics make statistical data more important than ever. In today’s post-truth environment, there is a greater onus and obligation than ever previously on national statistical institutes like the CSO to ensure that decision-makers have the evidence and insight they need to inform their decision-making and that citizens live in an informed society. Our post-truth societies need the highest quality official statistics and a strong narrative explaining their uniqueness and their value. Alternative facts can only be countered by evidence. Evidence is underpinned by hard data that is impartially compiled using transparent methodologies which can withstand the closest scrutiny.

Turning to the CSO’s budget, there is an allocation of €82.62 million for 2024. The gross allocation includes €3.1 million national recovery and resilience plan funding for the provision of an online census platform. The majority of the CSO’s budget goes on staff salaries with 76% of the gross budget being allocated to pay and the remaining 24% split across the non-pay subheads. The office is forecast to receive €2 million appropriations-in-aid in 2024, primarily relating to additional superannuation contribution. Funding for the CSO reflects the Government’s commitment to the office to meet its obligations under national and EU law, continue to develop the Irish statistical system and produce new outputs to meet domestic demand through the provision of trusted and robust official statistics.

In conclusion, the CSO is no longer an organisation that simply provides data and statistics. Rather, the CSO is an organisation that provides evidence and insight to policymakers and citizens alike, while at the same time co-ordinating the broader Irish data ecosystem through the provision of an increased suite of data and statistical services. The CSO operates in the public good and always operates with integrity, independence, objectivity and transparency. I welcome the opportunity to discuss the Estimate with Deputies today.

I thank the Minister of State.

I thank the Minister of State. My first question relates to North-South co-operation. She might be aware that we at the Good Friday Agreement committee are undertaking work on the impact of the constitutional change that would bring about a united Ireland, and we are looking at it sector by sector. We have come up repeatedly against the issue of directly comparable figures between the CSO and the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency. Could we have an overview of how the CSO engages with NISRA to ensure we align our data collection in order that direct comparisons can be made? We made a submission from both this committee and the budgetary oversight committee to the CSO a number of months ago asking it to look at better congruence between the two jurisdictions in order that we will be able to compare like for like.

There is an upcoming joint release on the findings of census 2022 and NISRA's census of 2021. Northern Ireland carried out its census during Covid, while we, as the Senator will know, deferred ours until 2022. The release highlights the potential for co-operation to provide insights on an all-island basis. This is the second such combined document on our census. In 2011, a joint North-South amalgamation of our censuses was produced, so there is a good working relationship between our two organisations. I know the CSO is looking forward to the results of the 2021 Northern Ireland census, and the publication of the joint results of that and of our 2022 census is going to come out later this year.

I am surprised that happened more than ten years ago because, from having done research myself, I know it is almost impossible to compare like for like between the two censuses. Ongoing work needs to be done and it needs to be prioritised by the Government such that we all pull together in trying to enable the CSO to work with NISRA in that way. There is an added complication in that the statistics for the North are difficult because they are often not regionalised and there is more of a whole-of-the-UK approach. What agreement could there be between Great Britain, the North and the South to get that on a more level playing field in order that there will be more like-for-like comparisons and better congruence? Is that something we can look at or push in a way that is not ad hoc but more regularised, with a framework for continuous working relationships?

The difficulty, as the Senator outlined, is that Northern Ireland conducts its census every ten years, whereas we do ours every five years. The amalgamation of the results of the Northern Ireland 2021 census and our 2022 census is coming later in the year. There is a very good relationship between the North and the South, but I think the CSO always endeavours to make sure we have the most accurate information. NISRA will also have to undertake work to see whether it will work with the UK for 2031. There is certainly a very positive working relationship North and South in that respect.

I value that and absolutely accept what the Minister of State is saying, but the results are not coming through to allow us to study, compare and have the data that is necessary to do that, as I am sure any student of economics would agree. I do not know whether there is a way this committee or any other committee of these Houses could facilitate that to bring it forward.

The CSO will continue to work closely with NISRA because it is in all our interests that we make sure the evidence is there, that the data is correct and as accurate as possible, and that if it is not accurate, those inaccuracies will be highlighted. Nevertheless, the Senator makes a very valid point.

The ESRI will be very useful in that space because it has done very good work with the shared island unit, and that is one of the challenges it has come across all the time. IBEC and the ESRI are developing a macroeconomic model that will tell us a lot and bring this forward, but a conversation specifically with the ESRI on what needs to be done would be useful.

The Minister of State indicated the CSO engages with the European statistical system and on an international basis. How has the collaboration been impacted by Brexit, or has it? What steps have been taken to overcome the challenges presented by Brexit?

In respect of the ESRI, I will certainly raise that and follow up with the CSO in the context of its work on that-----

Adele Bergin, who is excellent, will support that. There are a lot of excellent people in the ESRI but Adele and Seamus McGuinness are particularly good.

The CSO works closely with the UK and liaises closely with our EU counterparts and colleagues in the UK.

Okay. I just think it needs to be deeper and wider, and if we recognise there are gaps, we can seek to fill them in a way that will be useful to us all.

Is any training given to public representatives regarding the CSO website? It can sometimes be difficult to navigate, even if it is okay for people who use it day to day.

There are training sessions, I understand, for the media, public representatives and anyone who is interested.

They might be offered to us again. Speaking for myself and, I know, for others in representatives’ offices, it is really good to have that information, but being able to draw it out in the way we need to inform the policy proposals we put forward is valuable.

I have a couple of questions on behalf of Senator Higgins, who apologises for her absence. She asked about the gathering of data for the sustainable development goals. What data do we gather in that regard?

I will revert to the Senators with a full report on that, but there are indicators from a range of areas, from environment to public health. We will revert to Senator Higgins with a list of where the data comes from specifically.

I thank the Minister of State. It will be useful for everyone if she gives that to the committee. Senator Higgins asked also about the Women and Men in Ireland survey. It used to be conducted yearly but is now done only every three or five years, I understand.

A report on gender statistics will come out, I understand, in about a month. It used to be done yearly but has moved to being done every two to three years.

I think consideration should again be given to doing it yearly given the importance of gender budgeting, as the Minister of State will know.

I thank the Minister of State. The monthly updates of figures for those in emergency accommodation are published by the Department of housing. The most recent figures indicated 13,531 people were in emergency accommodation, reflecting an increase of 230 on the previous month. Our estimations, however, suggest that more than 20,000 people are homeless, when people in accommodation not funded by the State and rough sleepers are taken into account, but there are obviously limits to the assessments we can make. We need a report on the true level of homelessness in the State. The way to do that is to convene stakeholders in the sector and agree a methodology, and then allow the CSO to publish the reports regularly. Would the Minister of State consider working with the Minister for housing to give this role for gathering homelessness figures to the CSO?

A report by the CSO on homelessness will come out at the end of April, over the next few months. The agency will establish a new housing division that will look at a broader range of issues around this to address the exact issue the Deputy has highlighted.

Okay. It is important for the figures. There seems to be one set of figures contradicting the other and it is important to capture them. Obviously, what comes out is only as good as what goes in in the first place.

The Department of Health and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform publicly disagree on how Ireland compares internationally in health expenditure. The Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform told the Oireachtas Committee on Budgetary Oversight earlier this year that Ireland ranks first in the EU for expenditure on healthcare as a proportion of our national income and as a proportion of the total Government spending despite our relatively young population. The Minister for Health, however, speaking in the Dáil after the budget, stated that of the 15 western European countries, Ireland comes 11th in the amount we invest in healthcare per person. The OECD cautions about the comparability of the figures and one of the reasons the OECD warns about that comparability is it is relying on countries to report their own data. What role does the CSO have in measuring and sharing our health expenditure data? How is it possible we can have such a disagreement about such facts at the highest level of Government?

I will have to come back to the Deputy with a detailed response on the CSO. I do not have the detail on that.

I appreciate that.

I will source that data. The Deputy needs it for her answer. Other countries do have different methods of collating data, but I know the Deputy's question is specifically on the CSO.

That would be useful for the committee. The Minister of State probably would not know now, but perhaps will include it in her response to the committee, whether it is still the case that Ireland includes payments to family carers in the healthcare expenditure we report to the OECD. Is that the norm among the OECD countries? Ireland includes the home care services, the group homes in the community for people with disabilities, and day services for older people whereas in the North these are not included. While you can paint one picture, it may be very far removed when you dig deep, and even not so deep, into the figures.

I will come back to the committee on that because the Deputy makes a very valid point. I am sorry but I do not have that information to hand.

I appreciate that. Relating to that, it is my understanding that private healthcare is included in the figures for Ireland where it is not included in the other EU countries' figures. With the CSO being in such a pivotal position within the EU, it would be in the position to look at that properly. Then, once and for all, we would have a right figure for our expenditure on healthcare that everybody could agree on, both Government and Opposition. I have taken up enough time now. I thank the Minister of State very much for that.

I thank the Deputy for her questions and I will refer back to committee.

I welcome the Minister of State and her officials. I thank them for coming before the committee to provide the information they have.

In the context of the economy and business, the role of the CSO is obviously a major one. Has it identified accurately the challenges that might lie ahead for economic performance? With countries at the top of the curve, provision needs to be made for those less performing days, for want of a better description. How do we plan for that?

I have noted recently there are quite a lot of food, meat and dairy imports into the country. I do not know to what extent these are monitored at the moment. I tabled a question on this yesterday but have not seen the result of that yet. This is an issue given the threats to Ireland's agrifood sector arising from climate change. I saw today that somebody made a mistake in measuring climate change and its potential. I have not had time to look this up to find out what the mistake was. Everybody is entitled to make a mistake but we must correct it whenever we can. With imports of meat, meat products and dairy products into this country, are we satisfied those exporting countries are subject to the same restrictions around climate change? Do we have information to confirm or deny that?

I will have to come back to the Deputy on the import and export details on meat and dairy products just to give him a better answer.

With regard to the business question, we have the labour force survey, LFS, which is produced by the CSO each quarter. This is the official source of estimates of employment in the State. Regional estimates of employment are produced at NUTS level 3, the nomenclature of territorial units for statistics and a standard developed and regulated by Eurostat. It subdivides the economic territory of the State. The population range for each NUTS 3 region is approximately 150,000 to 800,000 people. There are eight of those regions in Ireland. Sample size is a key factor in the accuracy of the survey. Due to the methodology that is applied and the required sample size of that labour force survey, it is not possible to produce reliable county estimates. Whether we can break it down to county level within the country does come up sometimes as a question. The methodology of the service does not permit estimates of employment at levels lower than the regional NUTS 3 level. The census does produce employment figures at county level, but it should be noted there are differences in the methodologies used to produce census employment statistics compared with the estimates from that labour force survey, the NUTS 3 survey, and the more regional survey, including how an individual is classified as employed or not employed. In addition, census figures are only available every five years so it does not provide the level of frequency of the labour force survey, which is done quarterly. Because our census is every five years, the quarterly labour force survey is more accurate although done at a regional level. All of our economic data is peer reviewed by the European statistical organisation. It is important to say this also.

Coming on from that, to what extent does our statistical performance equal the best practice throughout Europe? To what degree can the CSO identify trends in trade and all kinds of trends, including climate change-related trends, and how are these backed up and co-ordinated with our European colleagues?

It is important to give credit where credit is due. In response to the Deputy's question, the CSO was peer reviewed and there were no flaws detected. This shows the standard and quality of data garnered by the Central Statistics Office. There is a lot of oversight and a lot of peer reviews that take place to make sure the data is as accurate as possible.

During Covid there had to be great reliance on the performance of the CSO in determining outcomes, projections and so on. How did that work out? Was it accurate, near accurate, ahead of accuracy, anticipatory or whatever?

We had very accurate Covid figures during that time. The Deputy will be aware we did not do the census during 2021 because of Covid. We deferred that until 2022. The Covid figures were very accurate. There was also a data room set up for Departments to carry out modelling during Covid.

That is very important. It is of crucial importance.

Mind you, the modellers were criticised by Member of this House. We should not criticise unless the alleged guilty party is worthy of the criticism. There was a lot of important, back-breaking work done during that period. It was of major importance in predicting what was required, what direction our economy and health system were going and what action was being taken to provide further safeguards for the future.

I am a little uneasy on some of the statistics from elsewhere. I refer to one I saw in a headline, admittedly; I did not get a chance to read the article. I have my suspicions that somebody was trying to tell us that somebody made a mistake in the projections on climate change. They should not make those mistakes any more. They are entitled to make them but there are consequences for everybody else in the event that they do. I wonder whether this changes our strategy and future projections for climate change. I presume the statistics are trying to tell us that our situation is more serious and we have to decrease emissions to a far greater extent than we have. There are challenges in that. The question that automatically comes up then is whether we are the total culprits in this area. Is every other country in Europe and every other country with which we trade contributing to any extent or is it just that we are seen by somebody, somewhere as the total and absolute culprits when it comes to emissions?

The CSO collates the data it looks at. That is not climate change, per se. It looks at energy and fossil fuel usage across the country and CO2 outputs in that context. The wider question the Deputy is asking is about everyone playing their part in reducing CO2 emissions. I would say everyone in every country is grappling. Fingers have been pointed at particular sectors. Here, the agriculture sector in particular comes in for a lot of criticism. Personally, I do not think that is called for. Emissions from agriculture have decreased. It is the transport sector, of all sectors, that has the biggest hill to climb in reducing emissions. It is important, separate from the CSO, that we make sure we have evidence on our emissions in every sector. Every Department is tied in now, and there are binding targets for Ireland in that regard.

Two things have to follow as regards the climate change issue. We have to have hope. We need to be able to hope that we are on the right track, that what we are doing is sufficient and adequate to meet certain targets and that the targets are within reach, rather than planning for something far in excess of targets. I am amazed at some of the things happening, for example, with soil management. The practice now is that there must be more wetting of the soil. That is not true. Over-wetting of soil will bring about a situation we cannot handle. For instance, potatoes sold in supermarkets are being imported left, right and centre because the soil here was too wet. It was not that it was too dry - it was too wet to germinate properly. That can be proven scientifically. If we proceed in that fashion for long enough, we will damage the economy to an extent that our expectations will not be high in the future. There will be a suggestion that farmers will be compensated but that is not the answer. That was not the answer for the sugar beet industry either, as has been well proven since. We must recognise the need for soil management and the impact it can have on our economic capacity in the future and our ability to withstand being replaced by others in different situations.

Another issue is soil compacting, which is very serious. Nobody seems to admit to it. There was a time when the earth was ploughed prior to preparing a seedbed. That no longer happens in every case. There is a new system, called one pass, where a machine travels at speed over the terrain, plants crops all in one go and only aerates the top four inches of soil. As a result, the natural drainage that was previously relied upon no longer occurs. Once upon a time, in the sowing season in the subsequent year, the ploughman went deeper to aerate the soil to allow natural drainage when the rains came. There are shades of Louis Bromfield in that. They did and do that all the time. It is not true that this is unique and we never had rain like this before. I assure the committee that we did and I was out in a lot of it.

We need to be alert to things that can happen under our noses, inexorably but at such a slow rate that we do not notice. For instance, there is a theory that high-protein diets are dangerous and we should get away from them. We need a balanced diet, which includes protein. We must remember that half the world is starving at this moment. If there are repeated years of lower production of the food we rely on, that would manifest itself in serious starvation. We cannot forget that the European Union was invented to avert food shortages and it still has the potential to play a major role in that.

On the labour market and the economy, the module on job skills was part of the labour force survey in 2022. To what extent has that thrown up information of benefit in terms of population movements and productivity in the agrifood sector? I go back to my old reliable, namely, the degree to which we can continue to compete internationally in food production. We are good at that, including in dairy, all meats and so on. We must also recognise - I have already referred to this - that supermarket shelves now have a good store of imported goods. I know the answer will be that we export as well. Some of the indicators in that regard do not add up. Potatoes are being replaced by imports now. It is far to early in the year to see that. It should be March or April before that manifests on supermarket shelves. I ask for a rigid review to identify trends in that area. I believe the trend is that the reduction in this country's produce, which is not a reduction in consumption, is being replaced by imports. It is true that there are swings and roundabouts. We always have to be careful to ensure we do not get overrun by the volume of imports on the basis that those imports are better or that others are better at something.

My last point, the Chairman will be glad to know, having spent a number of years at it before I came into this House, is land drainage. There was a network of land drains going back 100 years called trench drainage, which has almost disappeared. One of the main reasons is the compacting of the soil. The Romans perfected compaction when they assaulted inaccessible areas throughout their long reign. The point is that if the drainage cannot take place, the soil cannot be aerated. Then, compacting takes place and it takes years for the soil to recover. I do not mind who says otherwise.

The use of very heavy machinery broke down the drains that were there and there is no intention to replace them. The tillage system in this country produces more, providing certain circumstances prevail, namely, that there is an average year in terms of heat, drought or rain. We need to keep that in mind. The fact is we had rain in the past. I distinctly remember that in 1951, which is a long time ago now, it was appalling. It rained constantly in 1950, 1951, the first six months of 1952, 1953 and 1954, whereas 1955 was a good year, 1956 was bad and 1957 was worse. It was intolerable in 1958. For all of those years, some of those were outside in the elements. It was much easier to take account of them then. There was no need to read up about it because you remembered where the dents were.

I ask that the figures be studied to such an extent that we can identify the trends well in advance and not allow people to tell us, as they told us in regard to the sugar beet industry, that the poor growers in Africa and other countries were going to supply all the sugar requirements in the future. That did not happen. The sugar industry in this country died a death but in other European countries it did not because they did not go along with the statistics that were hurled at them at the time. They were right. I am sorry for going on for so long.

The Deputy makes a good point. This is where the CSO is now moving to. It is not just about providing data and statistics but also about feeding into Government policy and policymakers, making sure our policies are based on evidence, facts and trends. The Deputy mentioned population movement. I can provide a report from the census data in relation to population movement. We also have trade statistics for imports and exports at EU level. We can provide those also.

In regard to the Deputy's fundamental point about making sure we plan policy that is based on evidence, the CSO has so much knowledge that is confidential and will remain confidential but which can be used in an effective way for a public service to ensure we have the right services in the right place, while also ensuring we are in line with EU policies. We also look at what our counterparts are doing across the water.

What is the total allocation to the CSO?

The CSO budget allocation for 2024 is €82.62 million. The gross allocation includes €3.1 million from the national recovery resilience plan, NRPP. That is the funding for the online service.

Are the accounts audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General?

Is there an audit committee in the CSO?

There is an internal audit committee. However, the CSO is also peer reviewed at an EU level and there is an internal audit committee.

How many members does the internal audit committee have?

It is made up of directors general from various national statistical organisations. I can find out the number of people on the committee. I might get that information shortly.

In regard to the audit committee, are accountancy and all the other appropriate skills that would be expected represented on the committee?

Who appoints that audit committee?

The director general appoints the committee.

Are the members usually from outside or from within the CSO?

They include both internal and external persons.

What is the balance? Is it 50:50 or are there more insiders than outsiders?

About one third of the committee members are external.

The Minister of State mentioned the births, deaths and population estimates. We had considerable discussion after the Covid pandemic about the need for a Covid investigation similar to the ongoing inquiry in the UK. There was discussion about early deaths and people dying at a much younger age and from various cancers and so on. The question arose as to whether these deaths were linked to the vaccinations. What breakdown does the Minister of State have for deaths? Is there detail on cause of death or any background information that would serve in the context of a Covid inquiry and the aftermath of the pandemic?

I will have to come back to the Cathaoirleach with a breakdown.

What I am getting at is how deaths are reported. Is there a way of ascertaining the number of people who died of, for example, cancer, and the increased incidence of various cancers? We are told there is an increase in cancer rates throughout the country. I would like to get the figures to substantiate that, if it can be substantiated.

I will get those figures for the Cathaoirleach.

The Minister of State mentioned that she had statistics on movements from Ukraine. I presume she means the numbers of Ukrainians who have come here, where they are and so forth. What about international protection applicants? That is a very interesting movement of population. Where are they from? What are the numbers and how are they made up? How did they enter the State? Was it through ports or airports? What are their languages? All of that detail is important.

We have some data from census night, which will come in for the census, but the Department of Justice has almost all of that information I imagine. However, I will come back in relation to that.

The Minister of State takes an interest in the number of Ukrainian individuals and families who are here. The same level of information on international protection applicants should be available to the Government, including on how they arrived, whether they arrived with or without passports or paperwork and the number of men, women and children, and families. That is a huge piece of information which is absent from the Government's consideration of policy and so on. While there is limited information and analysis in the Department of Justice, the CSO should be collecting all of the data so that, using the information the Department has, complemented by the work the Minister of State might do, we would get a better picture of what is going on in the country and each of the counties, and indeed a profile of what countries are represented by that movement of people.

The Cathaoirleach has raised a valid point. I will certainly raise with the CSO the issue of getting that data.

The Minister of State will revert to the committee.

The simplification of CSO forms is an issue I am interested in, both in terms of the census and the questions that are being asked. An example I will give relates to imports and exports. It is as though some of the forms are sent to a sector, for example, the transport industry, but the operators find it difficult to relate to them. They want to answer the questions but the questions are not directed specifically to the type of transport they are providing or goods they are importing or exporting. Therefore, the breakdown can be slightly skewed by virtue of the fact that some people will tick the boxes just to comply with the requirement to send back the form. If we go to the bother of collecting that information, we should certainly simplify the process of collection, both on census night with those forms and in the context of business in order to try to relate the forms to the particular sector within the business community on which we are reporting.

With the census every year, a review is done on the questions asked. Many of the questions are dictated by EU regulations. The Chairman has just raised a specific issue relating to transport. If he feels there are specific difficulties relating to the types of questions asked, we would certainly welcome that feedback.

When I was a transport operator, I used to fill out those forms. I found a few ingenious ways of ticking boxes but they were not really accurate and I was never happy with the fact that those boxes were ticked. It may not have been just my form that might skew the position because others might have been doing the same thing. If they were, they were trying to comply and work with the CSO. We need to simplify the forms as much as possible. This week, one of the national newspapers reported that each Department is recruiting an individual to unravel what they call the gobbledygook English that can come out of a Department. This new person to be employed in each Department is to provide it for the public in layman's English. The same should apply to these forms. The questions may come from Europe but some of the questions from Europe are for that big, broad market. We should urge the use of common sense and a bit of directness in the questions.

It is important that we take on the Chairman's suggestions. We would welcome feedback on the specific questions. At an EU level, Ireland works with other EU statistics bodies to make sure the questions are as accessible and understandable as possible. Work is taking place at EU level, but that is not to say we should not constantly tweak our questions to make sure people can-----

We should be conscious of the need to do that. People in business are usually busy. Ticking these boxes is important for the CSO and therefore the simplicity of the questions is also important.

There will be a trial for the 2027 census in September. That could be an opportunity to get feedback on the types of questions asked. We do not want somebody sitting at home who needs an explanation as to what a question means; it needs to be very understandable. That is always the thinking when asking the question. It needs to be understandable to everybody at home so that they do not need to ask somebody what the question means. That is a tricky endeavour. The pilot taking place this year would be a good time to feed into it.

Good.

I am not sure if Deputy Conway Walsh put this question to the Minister of State. She asked about the statistics on men and women in the country. This may not have been carried out every year, but certainly on a rolling three- or four-year basis and it seems to have stopped. I am talking about Senator Higgins.

There will be a report on that in the next month. It is done every two years now. A report will come out in the next month on gender.

Is the Minister of State saying it is every two years?

It is every two years now.

Is the basket of goods an itemised basket of groceries?

Therefore, we can make a comparison of a particular grocery item this year and over the last number of years as the price changed and so on.

We can also look at how people's tastes have changed and what they are now buying. Online and broadband services are more popular now. Disposable cameras are no longer bought as they were in previous years. It is to see how people's tastes-----

It gets to that level.

Good.

My final question is on the Civil Service renewal action plan. The Minister of State said the CSO's work also supports the Civil Service renewal action plan. What are those plans?

Much of that renewal plan relates to the digitalisation of services. The 2027 census will be partially online. People will have the option of going online and filling it out. They will have the paper form but they will also have the option of filling it out online. We also did the employee engagement survey.

As such, it is only the digital end of it. I presume there is a Civil Service renewal plan across all Departments - at least there should be - and that feeds into it.

As I was saying to Deputy Durkan, it mainly relates to the CSO not just providing statistics and data; it is about giving insights on that data. That allows us to inform Departments in areas such as agriculture and transport that we are putting the right services into the right area. It deals with areas like people's transport movements, where they are living, where we need housing and where we need health care. It is really making sure we get the policy right.

I make the point that not everyone is connected digitally. It is a huge issue for everybody, but particularly older people. We have already had issues with bank closures and access to cash through ATMs. I would not say it is deliberate but it is isolating people in terms of forms from Departments and older people trying to get on with their lives. There needs to be a recognition that there is a population of people at all ages who do not want to have a mobile phone and do not want to be involved-----

Yes, they would prefer the stroke of a pen. When dealing with community and society the Government needs to understand that. I would hope that will be reflected in the work of the CSO and in the Minister of State's work in Europe and with other Departments. Decisions by the banks to close branches and take away cash machines showed that there is a clear misunderstanding of the demands of the public. At every chance he gets, Deputy Durkan raises the absence of an ATM in Leinster House but no one seems to be listening.

I commend the work the Minister of State is doing. We constantly need to change and be aware of everything.

I wish to reassure the Chairman. I completely agree. The CSO is not planning on having a digital-only census. In 2027, it is providing the option for people to go online if they so wish. I fully agree with the Chairman that there are people who will continue to want that paper census form. The Central Statistics Office employs field staff who go out around the country and help people if they need help filling out that form. That is fundamental. If we want to get evidence to make sure we are hitting all parts of society, we need to make sure we have that paper option.

There is a big change in society. The Minister of State witnessed it on her visit to Kilkenny. I was impressed by what she had to say in her interactions with local communities down there. The delivery of online services in areas such as mental health, addiction and all of that is a huge change which needs to be reflected in some way to inform the likes of the HSE and the Department of Health. It is important that in the work the CSO carries out we remember all strands of society.

That brings us to the end of our deliberations on the Estimates. I am sure the Minister of State will provide the committee with any information requested by members in a timely fashion. I thank her and her officials for coming in.

Barr
Roinn