SELECT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 11 Mar 2008

Vote 28 — Department of Foreign Affairs (Supplementary).

Chairman

As we have a quorum the meeting can proceed in public session. Apologies have been received from Deputies Michael Noonan and Tony Gregory. I remind members to ensure their mobile phones are switched off completely for the duration of the meeting as they cause interference with the recording equipment in committee rooms, even if on silent mode. I respectfully ask members and others present to comply with this instruction and switch off phones.

The purpose of today's meeting is to consider the 2008 Supplementary Estimate for public services, Vote 28 — Foreign Affairs, subhead O only, referendum on EU reform treaty. The order I shall now read was passed by the Dáil on 6 March 2008:

That a sum not exceeding €1,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st December, 2008 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Foreign Affairs and for certain services administered by that Office, including grants-in-aid and contributions to international organisations.

This token order facilitates the consideration by this committee of subhead O, referendum on EU reform treaty. The Department of Foreign Affairs is now seeking Dáil approval for this technical Supplementary Estimate to allow expenditure under subhead O for Vote 28, referendum on EU reform treaty, to commence.

Subhead O is a new service under Vote 28 — foreign affairs and, as such, Dáil approval is required before expenditure is incurred. Under subhead O, €5 million is provided for the work of the Referendum Commission. In addition, €800,000 is made available for activities by the Department of Foreign Affairs relating to the referendum.

The Referendum Bill was published and the Referendum Commission established on 6 March, with Mr. Justice Iarfhlaith O'Neill as chairman. The other members of the Referendum Commission are the Clerk of the Dáil, the Clerk of the Seanad, the Ombudsman and the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Members will appreciate that the referendum Bill was just published last Thursday and it is vitally important the Referendum Commission has Oireachtas approval to proceed with its work. It is imperative funding be made available to allow the commission, once established, to undertake its work as soon as possible. Approval of this technical Supplementary Estimate will allow expenditure on the new service in advance of the full Estimates being considered by the committee. Following discussion between the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, and me, as Chairman, it was agreed that the committee would consider the Supplementary Estimate at today's meeting, with the full Estimates for the Department to be considered by the committee at a later date. Contacts are ongoing between the Department of Foreign Affairs and the clerk to identify a suitable date for the committee to consider the full Estimates, Votes 28 and 29.

A proposed timetable for the meeting has been circulated to members. It allows for opening statements by the Minister and the main Opposition spokespersons, to be followed by an open discussion on the subheads by way of a question and answer session. Is that agreed? Agreed.

On behalf of members, I welcome the Minister who is accompanied by his officials who are also welcome. They include Mr. Dan Mulhall, Mr. Ciarán Madden, Mr. Frank Smyth, Mr. Cormac Gallagher and Mr. Michael Gallagher. Briefing material provided by the Department has been circulated to members. I call on the Minister to make an opening statement of five minutes. I will then invite the Fine Gael spokesperson, the Labour Party spokesperson and the technical group spokesperson to each make an opening statement of five minutes.

Minister for Foreign Affairs (Deputy Dermot Ahern)

I thank the members of the select committee for convening to consider this token Supplementary Estimate to facilitate spending by the Referendum Commission. As the Chairman stated, subhead O — referendum on EU reform treaty, is a new service under Vote 28. As such, Dail approval is required before any expenditure can be incurred under the subhead.

The Referendum Bill was published last Thursday and the Referendum Commission has now been established. The commission needs resources to advance its work. Subject to the committee's agreement, the Dáil can approve the release of funding to the commission, the referendum can then proceed and the commission can proceed to do its work.

The referendum on the EU reform treaty will be crucial for our standing in Europe and a strong turnout is important to give a positive outcome. It is essential that information on the treaty is communicated as effectively and widely as possible to the public. This is a complex treaty and explaining it will require a strong effort from all involved.

As in the case of previous EU treaties, the cost of holding a referendum on the reform treaty will be significant, but it will be a once-off cost. No precedent for ongoing funding is being set. The Government has allocated €5.8 million to meet the costs associated with informing the public about the reform treaty and the holding of a referendum. This includes the projected cost of the Referendum Commission, for which it is envisaged that €5 million will be allocated. The remaining €800,000 is allocated for the Government's own efforts to provide information for the public. This includes the production and distribution of a short pamphlet, a 22-page guide and a White Paper, all of which are available in braille and audio tapes, as well as in Irish and English.

The Twenty-eighth Amendment of the Constitution Bill was published on 6 March. This legislation is a necessary step in the process that will allow the people pass judgment on the reform treaty and Ireland's role in the European Union. It will safeguard principles which are important to the people and which the Government views as vital for Ireland. First, it contains the constitutional prohibition on Irish participation in an EU common defence policy. It makes it completely clear that we cannot join an EU common defence policy. Second, it provides for the Houses of the Oireachtas to play their full role in EU business. By ratifying the reform treaty, we will mandate the Houses of the Oireachtas, like other national parliaments, to play an enhanced role in EU law-making. The Bill even goes beyond the requirements of the treaty by providing for the Houses of the Oireachtas to give prior approval to Irish involvement in certain areas of EU activity.

Under the Referendum Acts, the publication of the Bill to amend the Constitution allows for the establishment of the Referendum Commission which is established by order of the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and funded by the sponsoring Department. It will have a twin role: to inform the public of the subject matter of the referendum and to encourage voter turnout. It is independent in its actions and supported by a secretariat from the Office of the Ombudsman.

On 6 March the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, established the Referendum Commission to provide information on the reform treaty. The Chief Justice has nominated Mr. Justice Iarfhlaith O'Neill to act as chairman of the commission. Its other members are the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. John Purcell; the Ombudsman, Ms Emily O'Reilly; the Clerk of the Dáil, Mr. Kieran Coughlan; and the Clerk of the Seanad, Ms Deirdre Lane. It is desirable that the commission has sufficient time and resources to fulfil its mandate. The Government has stated from the outset that it will be properly resourced. We believe €5 million will be sufficient to allow the commission to do its work in a fully satisfactory manner. It is an increase of over 20% on the amount provided for the Nice II referendum.

The Government has a duty to inform the public about the reform treaty. To this end, the Department of Foreign Affairs is undertaking a number of projects to increase public awareness of the contents of the treaty. These information activities require a budget and €800,000 has been set aside for this purpose. An explanatory pamphlet was published immediately after signature of the reform treaty in Lisbon in December. A 22-page guide to the treaty has also been published. There is a dedicated website, www.reformtreaty.ie, as well as a lo-call number for members of the public seeking further information. Both publications — the pamphlet and the guide — are being made freely available in public libraries, citizens advice centres, Departments and other public offices. We are finalising plans to distribute the 22-page guide nationwide. A White Paper is being finalised — it was discussed at Cabinet this morning — with a view to publication at the beginning of next month. My Department has also been providing copies of the reform treaty and the consolidated treaties to members of the public who have asked for them.

Subject to agreement of the Whips, we will take the Bill on 2 April, the day the Dáil resumes after the Easter recess. I anticipate, again subject to the agreement of the Whips, that we will have more than sufficient time to fully debate the Bill in order that all Members of the House can give their views on it.

I thank the Chairman and committee members for allowing us to discuss the Supplementary Estimate. I understand the committee also wants to discuss the issue of the Middle East. Perhaps we will deal with that issue later.

Chairman

We only want to make a brief reference to the Middle East at this time, as we will have a full report on the issue later.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

If the Chairman returns to the matter of the Middle East, I would appreciate an opportunity to contribute. On the matter before us, I have no difficulty in supporting the allocation of the resources required. The speediest possible provision of resources to enable the Referendum Commission do its work is in the public interest. I also appreciate that a functioning Department of Foreign Affairs will need resources to undertake the additional necessary tasks.

Responding to the Minister's statement, it is important that the debate on the Lisbon treaty be an informed one. It is also important that the commission's work will enable a discourse that is respectful of different opinions. The opinion I have offered over a long period is that there should be a critical "Yes", as there are issues facing the European Union that are not dealt with in the treaty and that will remain after the date on which we vote on it. It would be entirely wrong to imagine the issue of the democratic deficit, for example, which has often been discussed by this committee, as one that could be solved by the treaty. Many of the issues to be dealt with in the European Union are within the remit of national parliaments but it is for another day to decide whether, for example, foreign affairs and European scrutiny committees can provide the transparency required in the evolution of the Union. My view is that prior to, separate from and following the debate on the EU reform treaty issues of transparency and accountability will still exist. In my work I have drawn attention to mistakes that can be made by the scrutiny committee, COREPER, on the Hamas decision on the unity government, but these are matters for another day. It is important that no extraneous matter be allowed to deflect from the proper treatment of this referendum. Therefore, it is incumbent on people not to be deflected into attacking the proposed treaty on matters in the other treaties. The task of a fair presentation will be enormously valuable.

Those of us with different perspectives who agree there should be a "Yes" vote in the forthcoming referendum, as I do, would point out that the Charter of Fundamental Rights is not emphasised by all parties. It is a building block for social Europe. It was arrived at out of a consensus. In fairness to the text of the treaty that will be put before the Irish people in the forthcoming referendum, it did not settle for a minimum but for something that could come from a higher level of compromise on what people sought. The Charter of Fundamental Rights is a building block of social Europe and is interesting for the future of Europe. It is an act of trust on the part of people like me. Europe being structured on a social economy is better in a number of respects. It offers a better prospect for progress towards a universality of rights by taking the Charter of Fundamental Rights as a departure point. It also offers a better prospect for humanity in Europe and the world in development terms than anything that might emerge from the G8. Therefore, in social and economic terms, there are elements of the treaty, which if they go right, will offer an opportunity that will be welcome.

It is important that this debate will not be bad-tempered. A question many people occupying the middle ground ask, and one they must ask which the critics have not answered, is whether a better treaty than this is available in the short term. I believe the answer to that is "No". Does the treaty offer opportunities? Yes, it does. Does the treaty leave a series of matters unaddressed? Yes, it does because of the process from which it has come.

In regard to taking a departure point, for example, the rights of initiation for parliaments, a huge gap must be bridged by national parliaments in the European Union. On the question of fundamentals, namely, accountability of foreign policy, there will be a test that will remain the balance to be struck between the citizens' right to transparency, full accountability in foreign policy, the right to participate and the excessive demands of security. Foreign affairs committees throughout the world from Australia to the House of Commons and the House of Lords have all suffered by the abuse of information in the name of security that has deprived elected members of the right to accountability on foreign policy decisions. I hope that when the treaty is carried we will go on to reform different areas of decision-making, particularly on European Common Security and Defence Policy, to deliver a transparency that does not exist at present. That would be welcome. While this is not the appropriate time, I could point to where the European Union has not demonstrated transparency, particularly on issues affecting the Middle East, which has had disastrous consequences.

I am very much in favour of this treaty. I welcome on behalf of the Labour Party the allocation for the Referendum Commission and the competent performance of the Department of Foreign Affairs. I look forward to a debate that will be informed, and one I hope that will not cease in the second week in June when people vote. I hope people will take the opportunity presented to deepen the issues of transparency, accountability and the involvement of national parliaments not only with the European Parliament and Commission but with the full institutional structure of the European Union.

Chairman

As there is no Fine Gael spokesperson present, I will proceed to a general discussion on the Supplementary Estimate by way of a question and answer session open to all members.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

I thank the Minister for being here today. Since the first referendum on the Nice treaty we have come a long way in terms of the information the general public receive on referenda. Parties within the Oireachtas also recognise the importance of the general public being informed before they will vote in this referendum. The fact that of the 27 member states we are the only one that will have a referendum on the treaty further enhances its importance.

I welcome the allocation of funding for the Referendum Commission, which has an important job to do. The more informed our citizens are with each referendum that is held — Ireland must hold a referendum on the passing of any of these treaties — the closer they feel to the EU. Anything that does that must be welcomed.

I hope all the parties that indicated their support for this treaty will work together to ensure a high turnout on polling day. From my perspective and that of my party, we hope there will be a high percentage "Yes" vote and that Ireland can bring back to Europe a democratic mandate from its citizens having passed the Lisbon treaty. I wish the Minister and his officials well in the next few weeks. Certainly for our part, we will not be found wanting in ensuring our constituents are well informed about the treaty and its benefits for the people.

Deputy Seán Ardagh

When will the ruling in the McKenna judgment click in? It provides for equality of payment in putting forward the arguments for a "Yes" vote and the arguments for a "No" vote.

On the question of the treaty being passed by a large majority, ratification of it would make it easier for the Union to regulate and operate. While it is an attractive proposition from the point of view of politicians, administrators and functionaries, that aspect of it is not something that will be a selling point for the people. The principle element of it that will be a selling point is the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union. As the campaign gets under way, that element will come more to the fore. The booklet lists in a charter the fundamental rights that pertain in the member states. This would be an attractive element of the treaty for the people.

Another element of the treaty that will be attractive to the people is the equality among member states set out on page 22 of the booklet. Ireland, a small member state with a population of just more than 4 million in a Union of 470 million at this point, will have the same clout as Germany and Italy and other member states in terms of Commission membership. It is a grouping of equal member states. That is an attractive aspect of the treaty. However, it will be difficult to sell it on the question of whether there will be a president of the EU or a single foreign affairs spokesman or on the implications of qualified majority voting arrangements. I suspect these are not issues that will arise too often on the doorsteps. We should emphasise the Charter of Fundamental Rights and reinforce the notion of the equality of member states.

It is important that all Oireachtas Members who support the referendum take an active part in the campaign. The first referendum on the Nice treaty fell because the populace did not see their public representatives taking ownership of it and becoming involved in the debate. It is up to us to get fully involved and to be seen to be thus engaged. As a Dublin Deputy, I see that as knocking on doors and distributing leaflets and being seen to do so. I am opposed to meetings in so far as they tend to attract the small number who may be opposed to the treaty, giving them a greater voice than those in favour of it.

The reform treaty is good for civil society not only in Ireland but in the EU as a whole. I wish the Minister and the Government well in the referendum campaign.

Deputy Rory O’Hanlon

I support the Supplementary Estimate. It is important that we support the treaty for the sake both of our country and the EU. Ireland is the only member state to hold a referendum on the treaty and this places an additional obligation on all of us. My experience at this stage is that the public is not well informed. At the meetings I have attended, people are anxious to learn about it. The danger is that if voters are not well informed, they may decide not to vote.

As Oireachtas Members, we have a particular duty to play an active role in the campaign. All the parties that support the treaty must work together to ensure the public has the information necessary to make an informed choice. We must talk to people, distribute the literature and so on. Jargon can too easily creep into discussions about EU matters, a type of Eurospeak that involves words and phrases not in common usage. It is important that the information is imparted in a vocabulary that is familiar and understandable for the general public. If we work hard to ensure voters are well informed, I am confident they will decide, in the interests of our country and the EU as a whole, to support the treaty.

Deputy John Deasy

The Minister spoke about the information leaflet being distributed. I understand some €800,000 has been set aside for this purpose. Who will distribute these pamphlets? I often distribute booklets about pension rights and other issues in my constituency. It is not a big deal for the Government to undertake this task on a nationwide basis. Will the Minister break down the cost of distributing the leaflets and tell us who will be responsible for their distribution?

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

I agree with Deputy Ardagh that one of the strongest points in favour of the treaty is the incorporation of the Charter of Fundamental Rights. It has been suggested, however, that the charter is circumscribed by some of the general aims in the treaty document. In other words, it is available as a charter but is not law. It is important that there is clarity on the status of the charter.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Deputy Ardagh asked about the activities of the referendum commission and the implications of the McKenna judgment. The advice we have from the Attorney General is that the McKenna judgment does not apply until the day of the passing of the legislation. Deputy Ardagh referred to the requirement that funding be expended equally in setting forth both sides of the debate. That is no longer the case. Under the 1998 Act, the referendum commission was assigned the role of setting out the arguments for and against. However, amending legislation under the Referendum Act 2001 means the commission no longer has that role. Its function is to provide objective information and to encourage voter participation. It is not obliged to set out the arguments for the "Yes" and "No" sides. There is no requirement for a television advertisement with an actor setting forth both arguments. I am sure this is something most people welcome.

The information leaflet to be distributed is 22 pages in English and 22 pages as Gaeilge. The distribution contract must go to public tender. It would be remiss of me, therefore, to give a figure for the cost. We are satisfied that the resources we have already expended and are due to expend will not exceed €800,000. I do not expect the cost of the distribution to come anywhere near that figure. It will be somewhat below that.

The Charter of Fundamental Rights has legal effect as per the treaty. I strongly suggest that Members obtain copies of the charter, which is an extremely comprehensible document. As to the argument that Eurospeak is complex, I have never come across a more easily read document. I used it to great effect in the second referendum campaign on the Nice treaty in countering some of the kites being flown to the effect that the charter would somehow introduce all types of nefarious practices. Any reading of the document could produce nothing other than a positive impression. The question of the charter having legal effect is grounded in the treaty.

The reform treaty document is an official publication of the EU. It is a complex document which may only be of interest to those who wish to go into the proposal in great detail. The purchase cost to us is €42 but it is available to members of the public through the lo-call telephone number and the website. We have distilled its contents into the 22-page document and the White Paper which will be published shortly. I would hazard a guess that the most the public would require is the 22-page document and other information sources. Fianna Fáil has already issued and begun to distribute a useful leaflet. The National Forum on Europe will also provide information. In addition, I compliment the Oireachtas Committee on European Affairs on the meetings it is organising.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

My party has issued a pamphlet on the Charter of Fundamental Rights.

Chairman

It will still be possible to exercise the veto in the two important areas of taxation and defence. Will the Minister outline how that might happen?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

It has been made absolutely certain that those two issues will be subject to unanimity. No changes can be made in that respect. All sorts of issues are being raised. I had to answer another question in the Dáil today about foreign direct investment. Some are suggesting the reform treaty has something negative to do with foreign direct investment into this country. It has nothing to do with it. It is about foreign direct investment by European countries in third countries. The European Union is trying to work as a bloc to reduce the restrictions encountered by companies in dealing with countries outside the Union. The treaty will have no effect on Ireland's ability to entice foreign direct investment. EU member states will continue to be allowed to have distinct taxation systems. Such matters will not be dictated by anything in this or any other treaty. As I said in my opening statement, the defence protocol included in the Nice treaty is completely rolled over and confirmed in the legislation on the reform treaty published last week.

Chairman

I thank the Minister. The committee looks forward to considering the Estimates — Votes 28 and 29 — and examining the Department's output statement at his earliest convenience. Perhaps his officials might liaise with the clerk to the committee to agree on a mutually convenient and suitable date.