Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 28 Mar 2023

Civil Defence Bill 2023: Committee Stage

An Cathaoirleach

I welcome the Minister of State at the Departments of Foreign Affairs and Defence, Deputy Peter Burke, to our rather belated meeting of the committee. We are keen to facilitate him and his officials. The Bill was referred to the committee on 15 February. We wish the Minister of State well in his new portfolio and assure him of the full co-operation of the committee in the context of the relationship between the Legislature and the Executive. We look forward to engaging with him, over the course of his tenure, on matters pertaining to the Departments of Foreign Affairs and Defence.

He might like to make a brief statement by way of outline.

Minister of State at the Department of the Defence (Deputy Peter Burke)

I thank the Cathaoirleach for his kind words. I look forward to working with the committee. This legislation has been in a state of genesis for a significant period. There is no standalone Act for Civil Defence and this will be modernising, cornerstone legislation to underpin and define it. Civil Defence has been operating under an Act of 1939, to which there have been a number of amendments over the years, in 1946, 2002 and 2012, but the legislation before us will restate our priorities. It has been clearly welcomed by the House in general. I look forward to engaging with the committee on the amendments.

An Cathaoirleach

Amendment No. 1 has been ruled out of order. I should not really allow Deputy Berry to comment on an amendment that has been ruled out of order but I understand he is anxious to say a word about it.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

I will describe our role regarding electoral disinformation and how that works. As Dr. Evans has said, the current code of practice on disinformation is still a voluntary code of practice. We played a very substantial role in monitoring adherence with the old code of practice and also with the new strengthened code of practice that was adopted last year. The Digital Services Act, DSA, will bring in the obligation to manage risks, and the failure of a large platform to sign up to the voluntary code of practice, which is likely to be made onto a co-regulatory basis, or if a platform does not abide by that, then it will have a hard time showing that it is doing enough to deal with disinformation.

On the question about elections, as the Senator said it is not just our elections or the European Union elections in particular, it is all over the world. We have had engagement with our counterparts overseas. In the voluntary code of practice I believe that one of the issues is to have a kind of emergency response mechanism, and especially for disinformation at times of crises or at times of elections. We will want to participate in that. With regard to disinformation in particular we ourselves will not have very specific hard powers. We have met with the Electoral Commission and we will be in touch with it. It may have some powers also in relation to this although they are not yet commenced.

On the Senator's point about what attitude the platforms will have and will they respond, when one is a regulator one always sees a spectrum of attitudes from the regulated entities ranging from people who really try their best to comply, through to people who would comply but do not really understand how to, through to people who have no interest in complying. The tools the regulator uses are a bit different depending on where people are on that spectrum. For the people who have no interest in complying then one must move much faster towards using the formal enforcement tools. The Oireachtas has given to us very substantial tools to be able to search people's premises, to be able to require information, and ultimately being able to impose fines of 6% of turnover under the Digital Services Act, and 10% under the online safety code. One way or another we will get their attention.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy. I understand a detailed explanation was emailed to him before the meeting.

Amendment No. 1 not moved.

Section 1 agreed to.

Question proposed: "That section 2 stand part of the Bill."

An Cathaoirleach

I am thinking of the headlines this morning where a 14-year-old lost her life and there is a belief there that it was something to do with some of the tasks that are put on platforms such as those we have spoken about. There has obviously been concerns raised around TikTok and its tracking of information and data and all that. This is globally and not just in Ireland and in government buildings. Will Ms Hodnett comment on that?

Deputy Peter Burke

I thank the Deputy for his detailed analysis in respect of the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council and the new guidelines on foot of same. This relates to Department of Health legislation. I understand from my officials that it is an operational matter that has been under discussion with the local authorities and the unions in respect of Civil Defence for the past year. We have not yet been asked to respond to it but we believe the response is on the side of the Department of Health, which has regulatory responsibility for the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank the Minister of State. This is a serious matter, of great concern to highly qualified people. For three years, a general paramedic and an advanced paramedic have been trying to volunteer to cover events in their local communities and mentor the next generation of volunteers in their training and qualifications but are being held up by the issues relating to the Civil Defence officers’ association and the local authorities in regard to managing the controlled drugs licence.

Surely after three years of talks, the situation requires some input from stakeholders, such as the Department of Defence or the Minister for Defence, to get it sorted.

An Cathaoirleach

Would it be helpful for the Deputy if the Minister of State were to get a more detailed note from the Department of Health regarding that relationship?

Deputy David Stanton

This is having a significant impact on members of Civil Defence, who are highly qualified, and they are very worried about it. We are discussing the Civil Defence Bill, which is why I raised it here. I may bring forward an amendment on the issue on Report Stage unless the Minister of State has a response for me by then, whether from himself or his colleagues. This issue has been going on for three years and cannot be allowed to continue for much longer.

An Cathaoirleach

It is likely Report Stage will not be taken for four or five weeks, so the Minister of State might get some clarification or perhaps communicate directly with the Deputy.

Deputy Peter Burke

Absolutely, and I will speak to the Tánaiste and Minister for Defence about it as well. I had not been aware the issue was ongoing.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the Deputy okay with that response?

Deputy David Stanton

That is fine. I thank the Minister of State.

Deputy Peter Burke

I will revert to the Deputy.

SECTION 5

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 3 and 4 agreed to.

An Cathaoirleach

Amendments Nos. 2 to 4, inclusive, are related and may be discussed together.

Deputy Peter Burke

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 5, line 25, to delete “Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform” and substitute

“Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform”.

These amendments are technical in nature and reflect the changed name of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform.

Amendment agreed to.

Deputy Peter Burke

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 5, line 32, to delete “Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform” and substitute

“Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform”.

Amendment agreed to.

Sections 6 to 10, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 11

Mr. Sam Waide

I will answer the first part of the question. The RSA absolutely has a role to play. In all forms of mobility and segregation of mobility, whether it is pedestrians, e-scooters, cyclists, cars or whatever it may be, we provide research on an ongoing basis to the agencies, including Ministers and the Minister for Transport. We have an ongoing role to play in providing that research and the evidence base for those interventions. The Deputy is correct that we are a national organisation. We do and are willing to play a more active role where we are invited and where we participate in that wider active travel. Some of that research has informed those pedestrian lanes.

I will circle back to the point made regarding An Garda Síochána and the average speed cameras. I am familiar with the technology and camera company helping with that pathfinder project in Devon and Cornwall. I agree with the Deputy that it is a very successful project. They are using mobile average speed cameras, which are deployed in Devon and Cornwall in a terrain very similar to parts of Ireland, where there is not the ability or opportunity to construct gantry-style motorway average speed cameras. There is, however, the ability to use those mobile average speed cameras on rural roads where there are collision hotspots, and outside schools and community clubs where there is a road safety problem. I advocate that as a solution. I attended this committee three years ago and have always advocated the use of that technology, as I did more recently. Average speed cameras are not the only answer but they are quite an effective way of monitoring traffic and changing behaviour for the better. I would welcome the committee's support in engaging with whomever to encourage identifying investment to accelerate that particular intervention in 2024.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 11, as amended, agreed to.

Section 12 agreed to.

SECTION 13

It would make a mighty difference in making a road safe for people who may not know it. Perhaps the likes of us who travel every road know where the issues are and where the ponding will be. Simple measures like this should be taken. It can cause the wheel to be pulled or whipped out of someone's hand and then the person cannot see where they are going with water splashing all over the windscreen.

I am amazed by a particular new road that has been built. Back in my father's time, we had been agitating for the Macroom bypass. To think this new infrastructure is in place is great in one way. However, is a two-lane motorway and there is no space for a vehicle that breaks down. That vehicle would have to stay in one of the lanes, most likely the inside lane, with vehicles coming up behind it doing 100 km/h. There are three or four spots but someone would have to break down where they are. There is no lane to pull in to. It is absolutely ridiculous.

Likewise, there is a junction coming onto the bypass from Millstreet, which is a major town in Cork. There is no slip lane to get onto the road. This is new infrastructure. It is not the fault of the contractors but the designers. It is not the fault of the people in charge of building the road. At design stage, surely a slip lane should have been included. It is the case on every other motorway in the country. This is the only one that does not have a slip lane and it is the newest one. We do not have a slip lane coming from Millstreet onto the road. There have already been eight accidents there and it is only opened a few months. This should not have happened. I call for it to be addressed.

Likewise, a junction was omitted for the people from Cill na Martra. This is not my county but I use the road a lot. No junction was put at the Mons Cross for a big part of west Cork to get onto the bypass. They must either go back to Balllyvourney or Ballymakeera or go over to Macroom on the old road and go through the town. I do not know what is going on.

We have Listry Bridge in Kerry. To say that Kerry County Council has not asked for work on it would be a desperate misrepresentation. The members in my time and the present members have raised it. Deputy Griffin and I have raised the issue here. He passes over that road. I asked for it to be made safe for him to go home. If he leaves Killarney his way home is over Listry Bridge. There are accidents there regularly. Over the summer there was a big hold-up that was mentioned on the radio.

Amendment No. 5 not moved.

Section 13 agreed to.

Sections 14 and 15 agreed to.

An Cathaoirleach

As in the case of the earlier amendments tabled by Deputy Berry and others, amendment No. 6 has been ruled out of order.

Title agreed to.