Select Committee on Health díospóireacht -
Thursday, 12 Oct 2023

Public Health (Tobacco Products and Nicotine Inhaling Products) Bill 2023: Committee Stage

An Cathaoirleach

This meeting has been convened to consider Committee Stage of the Public Health (Tobacco Products and Nicotine Inhaling Products) Bill 2023. The primary objective of the Bill is to reduce the health harms of smoking by reducing the use of tobacco products and nicotine inhaling products, especially by young people. The Bill will achieve these objectives through the introduction of a licensing system for the retail sale of these products and restrictions on sale and advertising, and the strengthening of the powers of the enforcement authority, namely, the environmental health service of the HSE.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I also remind members that they are only allowed to participate in this meeting if they are physically located in the Leinster House campus. In this regard, I ask all members, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, to confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus. Should a division be called, members must come to the committee room to vote.

In consideration of the Bill, I welcome the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly, to the meeting. I believe he does not have an opening statement.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Before we get under way, I wish to make a point of order. I am seeking clarification about the closing date for amendments. We were circulated with a closing date that came and went. Further amendments were submitted after that. I do not recall being informed about a second closing date.

An Cathaoirleach

I am told by the clerk that the original meeting, as the Deputy probably knows, was pulled. On the back of that, my recollection is that it was open to members to reintroduce amendments at that stage. I believe there was, subsequent to the Deputy's amendment-----

Deputy Róisín Shortall

While there were subsequent amendments, I am not sure we were informed.

An Cathaoirleach

Members will have been informed at the meeting at which we stated the scheduled meeting was being pulled. That is my recollection.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

It is not something that is just said at a meeting. There are Standing Orders covering committee meetings.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the Deputy saying it is irregular that amendments were submitted?

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Yes. I have no recollection of seeing any notice from the Bills Office that the closing date was being extended.

An Cathaoirleach

I was led to believe that was the case at that meeting and we announced-----

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Can we have clarification from the clerk whether that was the case?

An Cathaoirleach

We are seeking clarification. Does the Deputy want me to delay proceedings until we get that clarification?

Deputy Róisín Shortall

It is an important point, procedurally.

An Cathaoirleach

I will suspend the meeting for ten minutes.

Sitting suspended at 1.43 p.m. and resumed at 1.58 p.m.

Sections 1 to 8, inclusive, agreed to.

NEW SECTIONS

An Cathaoirleach

Amendments Nos. 1, 3 and 9 are related and will be discussed together.

Deputy Pauline Tully

I move amendment No. 1:

1. In page 9, between lines 27 and 28, to insert the following:

“Review of operation of Act, Act of 2002 and Act of 2015

9. The Minister shall, 12 months after the passing of this Act, carry out a review of the operation of this Act, the Act of 2002 and the Act of 2015, to also examine:

(a) the regulation of flavouring, packaging, and advertisement of nicotine inhaling products;

(b) the evidence base for calculating licence fees, the appropriateness of fees which have been set, and potential methodologies for calculating such fees;

(c) issues arising from the implementation of the Acts and attempts to circumvent the Acts, such as proxy purchasing; and

(d) the pricing of tobacco products and nicotine inhaling products, including bulk purchasing, and options for standardising tobacco unit prices.”.

We are setting out in this amendment a requirement for the Acts of 2002 and 2015, which are the set of public health Acts regulating tobacco and nicotine products to be reviewed within 12 months. We believe this is necessary to ensure the Acts are functioning well and that their implementation and content is consistent.

In this amendment we have set out a number of areas which we believe need to be examined further with a view to further amendment to these Acts, including regulation of flavourings, standardisation of packaging, regulation of advertising to bring this in line with tobacco products, setting of licence fees as provided for in this Act to ensure they are appropriately priced and that the methodology for setting this fee is adequate and consistent with the aims of the Act, any opportunities which may emerge to circumvent the Act to ensure we close these loopholes if they arise, and the pricing of tobacco products and options for standardised or minimum pricing such as the existing minimum excise duty requirements. We will table this amendment again on Report Stage if it is not accepted, or we will seek to amend it further if accepted. It will include reference to the standardisation of the presentation in retail outlets of tobacco price lists and a review of the mechanisms for updating the minimum excise duty applied to tobacco products.

If the Minister does not accept the amendment, I ask that he commits to the requests in this motion and examine these matters further in a short time period to inform future amendments to these Acts, which we all know are necessary.

We will be supporting an Teachta Shortall's amendments Nos. 3 and 9.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I will speak to my amendments Nos. 3 and 9. This committee spent a considerable amount of time doing pre-legislative scrutiny on this legislation. We had several sessions and consulted large numbers of interested parties. We made 22 recommendations and, as far as I can, see none of those has been taken on board at all. We were not doing this for fun. We approached this task in a serious manner and we devoted considerable time to it. It is a kick in the teeth that the Minister has not taken on board any of the recommendations whatsoever. Later I will speak about the issues of flavourings, packaging, advertising and disposable vapes. I have separate amendments on those.

I do not agree with amendment No. 1 because I do not believe we should delay addressing those issues. The attractiveness of vapes for young people is a huge public health issue as it is. We cannot wait 12 months to consider these matters. This committee has already considered all those matters. I will be moving individual amendments on those issues. However, I am encapsulating the first recommendation from the committee's pre-legislative scrutiny which is that the legislation should be reviewed one year after enactment as proposed in amendment No. 3. It is good practice with new legislation. It is a very important area and after 12 months we should review the operation of the legislation to see if it is doing what it was intended to do.

Amendment No. 9 calls for, as recommended in the pre-legislative scrutiny process, a report after six months on the supports that should be available to people who are trying to cease smoking. Those cessation supports are absolutely necessary. There are issues with the cost of those for people. If this is a serious effort to discourage people from smoking and ceasing their smoking habit, we should have a report on improvements to those supports within six months. I urge the Minister to accept amendments Nos. 3 and 9.

Deputy John Lahart

I presume the Minister has been made aware of the pricing and the advertising that appears on these dispensers. They have found a loophole. They are very attractive because they are basically advertising that a particular brand is cheaper. For vulnerable nicotine addicts, particularly younger people, cheaper price is an attraction. That is the pull. That is one of the issues that is being raised by way of amendment. As the Minister will also be aware, retailers tell me a significant percentage of cigarettes sold in Ireland now are in the larger packets of 30. It is proportionately cheaper to buy a pack of 30 than a pack of 20.

Minister for Health. (Deputy Stephen Donnelly)

I thank Deputy Tully, her colleague Deputy Cullinane, who tabled the amendment, Deputy Shortall and Deputy Lahart. The amendment before us proposes a review of the implementation of the Act, which is a good idea. This is really important legislation. In this Bill we are doing something that is urgent, which is banning the sale of vaping products, e-cigarettes, to children. We are also bringing in various other controls for tobacco, such as a licensing system, vending machines and so forth. It is an important Bill and we need to know what its impact is. I believe this will have an important public health benefit, especially for children and younger adults.

I am in agreement with the benefit of having a review. I cannot accept the amendments before us. I will outline why and then I would like to offer an alternative. Some of the amendments call for a review within 12 months, which we do. It is a standard thing we sometimes put into legislation. Parts of this Bill will be commenced immediately, including the sale of vapes to children. As soon as this legislation is signed by the President, I will be signing an order making it illegal to sell vapes to children. We will do that right away. We are on Committee Stage now. We need to complete Report Stage and I am hoping to get the Bill into the Seanad as quickly as possible and to have it into law as quickly as possible.

Other parts of the Bill will take time to commence. For example, for the first time we are putting in place a rigorous licensing system, and we will come to that later. At the moment, a person only needs a once-off €50 fee and it covers as many shops as they want. We are fundamentally changing that. There will be a licensing system. The costs will be significantly higher and it will be for every single retail outlet. Obviously, we need to put a licensing system in place and we need to work with retailers to make sure that happens. Some of the pieces of that will take time and will need to be done in consultation with the retailers who will need to implement all this.

On the public health benefits of this, as I know colleagues are aware, the kinds of public health benefits we will see will typically take more than a year. It is hoped we will immediately see a reduction in sales to children and consumption by children. The advice I have is that we need to give it a bit more time to get a rounded evaluation of the public health benefits.

On the evidence base for calculating fees outlined in amendment No. 1, the fees are yet to be determined. That is under consideration and, ultimately, whoever the Minister is will set the fees. As colleagues will be aware, pricing of tobacco products is kept under constant review anyway, as per the financial resolutions we just passed applying increased tax on them.

Amendment No. 9 seeks a report on the costs of smoking cessation supports. Providing an update to the committee is something I can undertake to do now. I can ask officials to provide an update anyway. We do not need to wait for this. The good news is that, over recent years, we have introduced many of these controls. For example, two years ago, in 2021, funding for smoking cessation was €13.2 million and the following year, 2022, it went from €13.2 million to €15.7 million, which is a very significant increase. In February of this year, the HSE announced the roll-out of free stop smoking medication, for example, nicotine replacement therapy for anyone who engages in the smoking cessation programmes. As part of last year's budget for this year, we removed VAT on nicotine replacement therapies, again reducing the cost of the products for people who want to stop smoking. I recently approved the inclusion of nicotine replacement therapies in the drugs payment scheme. I propose we give an update to the committee on these measures. The smoking cessation measures are certainly already in place.

To the point on a review, I agree we need a review but it needs to be longer than a six- or 12-month time period. I would be interested in feedback on the following. I suggest to colleagues that I will bring an amendment on Report Stage, reflecting what has been said, but putting a three-year time limit on it. I do not mind what the time limit is but we need to pick one that gives enough time for the various parts of the Act to have been implemented and then enough time for us to be able to evaluate that. I am open to what colleagues think the right time is but I am sure 12 months is too early. It could be three, four or two and a half years; I do not mind. We just need to leave a bit of time.

I was going to cover this later but the following point has been raised. I commend the committee on its work on pre-legislative scrutiny on this Bill. I assure colleagues the recommendations were gone through in a lot of detail. I am bringing another Bill through which will come down very hard on vapes. There is predatory advertising going on and I am not remotely satisfied with the packaging and the way it is clearly done to make it attractive to young people and children. I am not at all happy with the disposable vapes and their environmental impact and public health risks, some of which we have seen in the UK in terms of the contents of some of these single-use vapes. I am not happy with the packaging or flavouring either, and these issues have been raised by the committee. We are about to start a public consultation on these issues, which is due to start on 7 November. We will listen carefully to that and we have listened carefully to the committee and taken all of that on board. We will then move quickly to produce heads of a Bill and those heads will come back to this committee in pre-legislative scrutiny.

Let us be clear: in this Bill we will make it illegal to sell vaping products to children. The reason I am not putting all of the other measures in this Bill is that, the moment I do so, we are back into an EU process whereby we have to notify the EU before it comes back to us and the process takes time. I am not willing to wait six months, 12 months or however long it might take for those notifications. We need to make it illegal to sell e-cigarettes and vapes to children now. We will bring this Bill through and we have already started the work on adding significant additional restrictions on disposable vapes, on which I would like to see a complete ban; flavouring, where we should bring it down to a limited set, and we are looking at some countries that have tobacco flavour and other countries that have tobacco flavour plus something else; packaging, on which we want clear restrictions so it is not seen as something that is quite cynically targeting children and young people, which is exactly what it is doing; and, critically, one of the issues I really object to and which I note the committee's comments on, which is points of sale. If you walk into a petrol station or newsagent, you are bombarded with all of these bright colours and packaging around the vapes. Just like we did with alcohol and smoking, we need point-of-sale bans as well.

An Cathaoirleach

Is Deputy Tully pressing the amendment?

Deputy Pauline Tully

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Deputy want to respond to the Minister first?

Deputy Pauline Tully

I am taking this on behalf of Deputy Cullinane because he is unavailable, so I am just following what he wants me to do.

Deputy John Lahart

What is the status of vaping indoors?

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

There are no bans on that.

Deputy John Lahart

That is something that ought to be considered as well as part of any legislation that is coming because I have noticed a creep in it, absent any hard information on what the vapes contain.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

One of the things we are already looking at is banning vaping in cars with children in them, as we have for cigarettes. I would like to engage with the Deputy further and we will incorporate that into the thinking on the new Bill as well. I thank the Deputy for that.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

This is a ludicrous situation. Here we are with a Bill before us that is capable of addressing all of our concerns and all of the public health concerns about vaping. There is an urgency about that but the Minister is telling us he is only going to move ahead with one particular aspect of this issue. He is basically kicking the can down the road on all of the other public concerns there are about this. The Minister has the ability to address those concerns in this legislation. We have sent the Minister clear advice on that. There are several submissions we have received from reputable health sources, including the Irish Cancer Society and the Royal College of Physicians of Ireland. In addition, a lot of surveying has been done on children's attitudes. Nonetheless, the Minister is saying to us that while he is not happy about all of these public health threats, including predatory advertising, packaging, disposable vapes and flavourings, he is refusing to address those issues in this legislation. It is just a cod to talk about bringing in a second Bill. The Minister has been all over the media in recent weeks talking about his determination to address all of these issues. He has the opportunity to do that now and he is refusing to do so. It is entirely unacceptable from the Minister for Health that he is passing up on this opportunity to do something of real consequence.

On the 12-month review, this is not a review about the public health benefits of the legislation. It is the sole objective of legislation to achieve public health benefits. The purpose of a review is to consider the operation of the new legislation and to see if it is doing what it is intended to. The purpose of a review is to see if big tobacco will find ways, as it normally does, around the legislation and to find where things need to be tightened up. Those are the purposes of the review and the idea of doing something as a grand gesture and then looking at it in three years’ time just does not cut it and is not acceptable. I urge members of the committee to do what we all agreed on in the pre-legislative scrutiny process and take this opportunity to do something of real consequence in public health.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I would agree with a lot of what my colleague, Deputy Shortall, has said there. The purpose of the exercise, insofar as I was concerned and from the previous discussions, was to address all of the issues that looked like a threat through encouraging adults or children back into smoking by a circuitous route. That means all of the possible issues, including the sale to children, which the Minister mentioned, and the use of flavours, some of which are banned already, come in under a package and have a potential that is worrisome. As well as that, the area of vaping is taking on a new meaning. The shopfront has become a major display area and it looks to me there could be situation, notwithstanding the proposal in the legislation, that somebody may decide or have found a way to circumvent the proposals.

I mention nicotine, for instance, and I was a smoker but I gave it up. Thankfully, I did not have to replace smoking with anything else, yet and I hope not ever. Having ceased smoking or having decided not to smoke, something could be introduced that might inveigle the person back into thinking they need to do something, which is something similar to what they did before but not as harmful. There are two sides to that argument. First, there may be a possibility of introducing new clients to the market on the basis this is not as bad as what was here before or it is not as bad as nicotine.

The person is then trapped into experimenting and then vaping becomes habit-forming in the same way as the previous situation.

I am also told that some products are banned in some countries in the European Union. I know there are, but I do not know if the same is intended here and to keep an eye on the European Union. We all found it difficult at the beginning to get precise information, and opinions were sought from overseas, regarding the cause or causes that might lead people, children or otherwise, but particularly young people, into vaping. My colleagues, including Deputy Colm Burke and others, have raised a question about packaging and sales, including the numbers of cigarettes contained in a package in a way that might encourage young people to spend in a particular way and the dangers inherent in this.

Additionally, there is not a great lot of sense in having largely got rid of the smoking issue throughout the country only to think it might work its way back in an acceptable way via vaping by starting off through encouraging children and flavours and people to then become dependent on it. The question is whether they are new smokers or previously reformed smokers. If people become dependent on the new cigarettes, as suggested and seems to be the case, then we are not doing the job in the way it was intended. It is as simple as that. If vaping becomes a habit in the same way as the habit we had before, and somebody says it is a harmless habit, I do not accept it. I think there are too many dangers here for the harm to be allowed to creep back into the system again.

I am inclined to make a suggestion regarding what we do now. Notwithstanding the continuing surveillance of the legislation and its impact, and in this context the various shapes of the ingredients and what form they might take, given the drug industry we have also experienced here, let us not forget that children are being targeted all the time in national schools and in second-level schools. We must, therefore, regard this situation as akin to that one. Whatever we do in one situation, we must also do in the other. Whatever we propose to do for the benefit of the population to safeguard people's health, we must be right down the line with it, with no bends or curves in the implementation.

Deputy Gino Kenny

I have a few questions. The first is about the timeframe for the secondary Bill in relation to all the concerns I think everybody has. I agree with the Minister about flavouring. I think there should be several flavours. I believe there is a lack of regulation in the whole system of vaping. As was said, no matter where we go, into a phone shop or wherever else, we can find these vapes. They are everywhere. It is insidious and needs more regulation. Returning to the secondary Bill the Minister hopes to put forward, what kind of timeframe are we talking about?

An Cathaoirleach

I will take all the questions first and then we will go to the Minister for answers at the end. I call Deputy Hourigan.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

The Minister indicated that whatever we decide or put through today could require an EU notification in six months. It is worth saying that we have been working on this legislation for longer than that. It was flagged very early on that the issue around flavouring and packaging was key to this legislation. I am not sure that this is a shortfall for this committee to deal with rather than the Department. I suspect that the issue of flavouring and packaging will be core to how this legislation affects children. This is my main concern. Every child I see unaccompanied on the Luas has a vape in their hand. It is rampant and is encouraging them into smoking cigarettes.

Honestly, I do not accept that we need more flavours. I cannot imagine that having cutesy cartoon vampires on the packaging, which we saw at one of the sessions, and the watermelon cherry flavour is about anything other than attracting those aged 12, 13 and 14 into using and becoming dependent on nicotine. If people in their 20s, 30s and 40s are using watermelon cherry flavour and need cartoon vampires on packaging, then I think they have bigger problems than vaping.

The value of the amendments proposed by Deputy Shortall, in particular, lies in that they are intended to put vaping on a par with cigarettes. This would ensure vapes would be treated in the same way, the packaging is clean and clear and the flavours are controlled. I just want to record that I do not think that placing the timeline of six months on this committee is proportionate or fair.

Deputy Colm Burke

I thank the Minister for the work he has done in this area. It is complex but there are a few issues that we must see if we can get through. My colleagues, including Deputy Durkan, raised the issue, for example, of limiting the number of cigarettes in a packet to 20, and this could be covered under this proposed legislation.

The other issue we need to examine is that there is a great deal of commentary now concerning the sale of tobacco products and gradually working up to having a situation where they can only be sold to people aged over 21. This has been done in some countries, including New Zealand, and such an undertaking is also being discussed in the UK. Research and evidence show that if it is possible to keep people off cigarettes up to that age, then the likelihood of them ever getting involved in smoking will be extremely remote.

Another issue concerns the importation of cigarettes when people go on holidays and bring back many of them. If we look at the figures from the Covid-19 lockdowns, it will be seen that the sales of cigarettes increased by something like €150 million, which is somewhat of an indication of the extent of products being brought in from abroad when people are travelling back. Some countries have introduced a provision to stipulate that the health warnings on packets must be in the language of the country. Such warnings can be in whatever language, so there is nothing preventing us from specifying that all packets of cigarettes allowed in here must have the warning concerning the risk of smoking cigarettes displayed in Irish. This would then limit what products could be brought in from abroad.

Those are just a few aspects that need to be considered. We are also talking about a second Bill on this issue, but there are some things we could do with the current legislation to incorporate some of the measures to address these issues. I think this should be considered. I again thank the Minister for the work the Department has done on this issue and it is important that we try to make as much progress as we can at this stage.

An Cathaoirleach

I think everyone has come in now. I call on the Minister to respond.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

I thank members for sharing their views. I am not going to slow down banning vapes for children. It is a simple reality, however, that if we were to bring in some of the measures today or in this Bill around flavours, disposables and point of sale, which I will be bringing in and it is great to hear there will be support in this regard, we would delay banning vapes for children by at least six months. We all know the legislative process can take longer than that. I am not going to do anything that slows down banning vapes for children. I wish to be very clear about this point.

I hope the committee members accept this and support it in the context of me telling them that a second Bill is already under development and a public consultation on it will be launching in a matter of weeks. We will be coming down hard on the issues we have all raised and agree on. I refer to point-of-sale, flavouring, packaging, disposables and potentially other issues raised here. I will, however, not slow down banning the sale of vapes to children. I am not doing it. I do not believe that any of the members here, in reality, would want me to do it. Putting all the politics aside, I do not believe that is the case. I say this because this is ultimately what this is about.

The Bill is going to bring in a licensing system that will make it much harder for retailers to sell cigarettes or vapes. Let us be clear about that. It is going to ban the sale of vapes to children immediately, bring in additional advertising bans and ban the sale of both cigarettes and vapes from vending machines. This is important, urgent legislation and we should not in good conscience slow it down. Let us get on with it, get it through both Houses immediately and ask the President to sign it. I will commence the sections we can commence immediately and we will be right back in here on the other issues.

Amendment put and declared lost.

An Cathaoirleach

Amendments Nos. 2 and 5 are related and will be discussed together.

Deputy Pauline Tully

I move amendment No. 2:

“Regulation of disposable tobacco products and nicotine inhaling products9. The Minister, having considered the wider obligations on the State to reduce single usedisposable products, may:

(a) regulate such elements of tobacco products;(b) regulate such elements of nicotine inhaling products; and(c) prohibit the sale of disposable nicotine inhaling products.”.

We have brought forward the amendment to ban the sale of disposable vapes and give the Minister powers to regulate further disposable elements of tobacco products and nicotine-inhaling products, as he may see fit, to reduce the use of single-use or non-recyclable components insofar as possible, given our wider obligations to reduce the use of such products and to incentivise, in the first instance, a move away from smoking or vaping and, in the second instance, where a person chooses to smoke or vape, as is their right, to ensure the products that are available will be as environmentally friendly and sustainable as possible.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

My amendment No. 5 seeks an outright ban on disposable vapes and will enable the Minister, at whatever point he and his Government colleagues decide is the appropriate time to ban disposable vapes, to do so. I believe that should happen as quickly as possible, although I recognise that another process is under way and the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, is working on that. Again, my concern is that if there is a recommendation - it seems that is the way it is going, given that the strong indications from all the surveys are that we should ban disposable vapes - we will not have another delay whereby we will have to go through the entire process of producing more legislation. We are getting close to the dog days of the Government and I do not have confidence there is going to be a second item of legislation. There is no guarantee that is going to happen within the lifetime of the Government. This will allow the Minister to take action at the appropriate time to ban disposable vapes by regulation, without having to go back to the drawing board and start the drafting process again for primary legislation.

There are a number of aspects to disposable vapes. They are a relatively new phenomenon, clearly designed to attract children to start vaping, and we know vaping is, inarguably, a gateway to smoking. Considering all the progress made in this country over recent years on reducing the rates of smoking, they are now going up again among young people. Disposable vapes attract young people very much because they are so much cheaper than the standard, non-disposable ones, if we can call them that. They are also much easier to hide. You can have one in your pocket or stashed away in your schoolbag, and that is what children are doing. They are cheaper and more accessible, they are displayed in shops beside sweets, and they are absolutely designed to ensnare young people to get into the very unhealthy practice of vaping and the inevitable next step, smoking. There are very strong arguments on public health grounds, therefore, for banning disposable vapes.

There are also, of course, equally strong arguments on environmental grounds. Any of us who attend residents' association meetings in our constituencies will be very aware of a growing complaint about the level of disposable vape litter all over the place, outside shops and schools and in public places. These coloured disposable vapes can be seen everywhere and they pose a very significant environmental threat. They contain plastic, metal and a battery, all of which are huge threats to the safe disposal of refuse. They pose considerable challenges to local authorities and incur additional costs arising from their safe disposal. Critically, a huge environmental issue is involved. While the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, is working away on his aspect of that in the context of the circular economy, I do not want us to find ourselves, where there is a strong recommendation from him to ban disposable vapes, without having the legislation ready to do that.

What I propose, therefore, in amendment No. 5 is that the Minister will be enabled to ban disposable vapes by regulation, at the stroke of a pen, without having to go back to the long, drawn-out primary legislation process. The Minister has stated in the media that he wants to ban disposable vapes and there are very strong public health recommendations for doing that, and my amendment will simply enable him to do that when his colleague has finished the process in which he is engaged. I urge him strongly to take it on board.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

I am fully in favour of banning disposable vapes and we are going to do so. The Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, as the Deputy noted, has completed a public consultation. He has come at it from environmental grounds and I agree with those grounds. These things are a scourge. I am coming at it from a public health perspective. I believe they are targeting children and young people. We have evidence of youth smoking rates and we also have evidence from the UK of some very worrying materials and ingredients in some disposable vapes, which is probably because they are harder to regulate. I have every intention of legislating and the Minister of State may well be looking at legislating from an environmental perspective.

My intention is to introduce this in the new Bill, and my reason for doing so is the same as we have just discussed. The advice I have is that if we were to introduce it in this Bill, including what Deputy Shortall is proposing and I appreciate the arguments that are being made, we would again be facing an EU notification and a further six-month delay in banning these vapes for children. I have no doubt we will all be sitting in this committee, once we have this new Bill through, in the minimum length of time but we cannot delay the ban for children in the meantime. I agree with what has been said but with one caveat, namely, that we should put it in the second Bill because we cannot delay the ban on vapes for children.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I do not see why the Minister would be restricted in any way by EU requirements in simply having an enabling provision in the Bill. It is when he would propose to regulate that there might be an issue with that, but this is about allowing him to do something, or not do it, depending on what his advice is, at a time of his choosing but in a way that will not require him to go back to the drawing board. That is the purpose of it.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

I appreciate that and I wish that were true, and I asked the same question when we looked at the Deputy's amendment. The clear advice I have is that regulating to give the Government or the Minister the power to do it under regulations would, unfortunately, require the same notification.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

The Minister is making the case that if we do anything further in this Bill, the EU will have to be notified.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

Not anything Deputy-----

An Cathaoirleach

I do not want a back and forth. If questions are being asked, they should be asked together. Are you finished Deputy Shortall?

Deputy Róisín Shortall

No, I have another question. Say in nine months' time, the Minister decides to legislate, at that point the EU would have to be notified. Is that correct?

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

No, we do the notification as part of the legislative process. For example, we had to notify for the measures that are in this Bill, which is why we can now proceed with it.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Supposing-----

An Cathaoirleach

Sorry. Members ask questions and the Minister replies at the end. If the Deputy wants to put a series of questions, the Minister will respond. I want to let everyone in.

Deputy Gino Kenny

Is it possible to ban disposable vapes by statutory order?

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

No, it is not.

An Cathaoirleach

Are there any other questions?

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I contend that the purpose of this amendment is to enable the Minister to do just that by statutory instrument, by regulation. This would provide the primary legislative basis for doing so. In a best case scenario, say in six or eight months' time, the Minister comes back with a second Bill - he has a lot on his plate, especially after yesterday - as part of that process, the EU will have to be notified, so that is going to kick it even further down the road.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

Yes, but that is exactly the point. Let us say we are back here in eight months' time, if we do this now, we have to pause this Bill for eight months. That is exactly the point and I will not pause this Bill for eight months. We have to get this through. I know the Deputy is acting in good faith on this amendment. I accept her bona fides in this regard. I have read the amendment and I have been asking similar questions of my officials for some time because I want to move forward as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, the clear legal and official advice I have received is that legislating to allow a Minister to do it under regulations kicks off the same process. I think the Deputy has hit the nail on the head. We will be back here in six, seven or eight months' time and we cannot put these measures at risk in the meantime. We have to get on with this. The second legislative process has already started.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

We were talking about the three-year timescale for reviewing the legislation. There is no great sense of urgency there.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

I am sorry for cutting across the Deputy but that is not what I said. I said the advice I have is that it needs to be more than 12 months. I am very open to discussing with, and listening to, colleagues as to what they think an appropriate time is. With respect, that is what I said.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I do not know who the Minister got the legal advice from but I do not see that enabling him to do something would pose a problem. The Minister can notify in terms of the regulations but this enables him to do something without having to go back to the drawing board.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

The advice I have is that the one thing we can do without notifying the EU is the review. That is why I am recommending that and I will come back with an amendment on Report Stage, whether it is two years, two and a half years, three years or whatever colleagues think. It is the only bit because our doing a review does not impact on the requirements of the Single Market.

Deputy John Lahart

On the review piece, I am not sure whether there is flexibility to review some aspects of it earlier than other aspects. As the Minister said, some parts of the Bill can be enacted immediately while we will wait for other parts to be enacted. In regard to parts on banning vaping products for children, three years seems a long time. If the tobacco companies or other companies find some way of circumventing it, we may have to wait for three years. The Minister said two years but I ask the Minister and his officials to consider as tight a schedule as possible in this regard.

Clearly, the Minister has to have some kind of a landscape visible to him as to how the law is performing. I accept that it will take more than a year to get realistic statistics and figures on that. As the Minister said, there is a period in which those have to be collated, prepared and presented to him for consideration.

The committee's view would be that we want to see that the law is effective, as I know the Minister does. Whatever mechanism he can introduce in terms of the review to do that as speedily and as efficiently as possible would be appreciated.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

I am always very wary of proposing things live but I take Deputy Shortall's point about three years potentially being too long and Deputy Lahart's point about the possibility of dividing it up. The most important part of this legislation to me is protecting children. There are other pieces to this as well. Putting barriers in place to prevent children vaping, for all the reasons we all agree with, is the most essential piece. I would be very interested to know, as I think we all would, as quickly as possible how well that is going.

I would not presume to speak for anyone at this committee but my view is that this is the tobacco industry getting back to getting children smoking. That is what I believe, rightly or wrongly, and we need to come down on it like a tonne of bricks.

I ask colleagues to let me to reflect on it and we can talk about it afterwards. I am very open to the idea of taking the section on the ban for children, the thing we can do straightaway, and perhaps doing a review on that. We probably need to let it run for a year and then we could do it. Perhaps it could be done in 15 or 18 months or so and then in regard to the other sections and Deputy Shortall's point, we can do it after two years. This would give one year for the systems to get in place. We let it run for a year and then we review it. We might continue the conversation between now and Report Stage to find something that works. I think we could accelerate the piece that is going to be commenced straightaway.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I want to get back to the issue of disposable vapes. The Minster of State at the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Ossian Smyth, had a consultation on disposable vapes, which closed on 11 August. There were 3,246 submissions to that consultation. Some 85% of people supported the banning of disposable vapes. The public is behind the Minister on this and is crying out for legislation in this area.

I will repeat this for the last time that my amendment No. 5 encapsulates what this committee has recommended through the prelegislative scrutiny process which is to take action to ban disposable vapes. My amendment is giving the Minister the power to do so at the point that he believes is right, and in consultation with his Government colleagues. I am pressing this amendment.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

What I am saying very clearly to colleagues is that were we to accept this amendment, we could not ban the selling of vapes to children for at least another six months. We would be back here with this Bill in eight months' time, having lost eight months of protecting children. I fully agree we are going to do it. Under no circumstances should we wait for eight months to protect children.

NEW SECTIONS

Amendment put and declared lost.

Section 9 agreed to.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 9, after line 37, to insert the following:

“Review of operation of Act

10. The Minister shall, 12 months after the passing of this Act, carry out a review of the operation of this Act.”.

Amendment put:

The Committee divided: Tá, 5; Níl, 4.

Tá

• Crowe, Seán.
• Hourigan, Neasa.
• Kenny, Gino.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Tully, Pauline.

Níl

• Burke, Colm.
• Donnelly, Stephen.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• Lahart, John.

Amendment declared carried.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

Members have just delayed the banning of vapes to children by about eight months. Congratulations. Extraordinary work. This is some of the most cynical politics I have seen Deputy Shortall engage in. This is children's health we are talking about and she has been around this place long enough to understand European law. It is deeply cynical.

An Cathaoirleach

May we move on?

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Can we do something about this? This is a scurrilous allegation against the whole committee. The recommendations of the committee have been in the report for months.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Since July, in fact - four months ago.

An Cathaoirleach

I am moving on.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

Members have just tried to delay the banning of the sale of vapes to children.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

We did no such thing. It is a shame that we have to sit here and listen to that.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Why did the Minister not act in July?

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

How extraordinary.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Why did the Minister not act in July when he got the PLS report?

An Cathaoirleach

Please, can we get the meeting back to order?

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

How extraordinary. That is what Deputy Shortall just tried to do.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

The Minister should have done his work.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

She should be ashamed of herself. She is playing politics with children's health. That is what she is doing.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

When he got the PLS report, the Minister should have done his work and he did not.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

She has been here long enough to know. She is putting children's health at risk through cynical politics.

An Cathaoirleach

The Minister has made his point. Can we move on? We are moving onto amendment No. 4.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I move amendment No. 4.

In page 9, after line 37, to insert the following:

“PART 2

REGULATION OF NICOTINE INHALING PRODUCTS AND RETAIL PACKAGING

Flavouring of nicotine inhaling products

10. (1) The sale of nicotine inhaling products shall be limited to tobacco flavour.

(2) Prohibited ingredients may be determined by regulations made by the Minister.”.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Deputy Shortall want to speak to it? Does anyone else want to speak to it? No. Does the Minister want to reply?

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

No.

Amendment put and declared lost.

An Cathaoirleach

Amendment No. 5 in the name of Deputy Shortall was already discussed with amendment No. 2.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I move amendment No. 5.

In page 9, after line 37, to insert the following:

“Regulation of disposable nicotine inhaling products

10. The Minister may by regulation prohibit the sale of disposable nicotine inhaling products.”.

Amendment put:

The Committee divided: Tá, 5; Níl, 5.

Tá

• Crowe, Seán.
• Hourigan, Neasa.
• Kenny, Gino.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Tully, Pauline.

Níl

• Burke, Colm.
• Devlin, Cormac.
• Donnelly, Stephen.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• Lahart, John.

Amendment declared lost.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I move amendment No. 6:

In page 9, after line 37, to insert the following:

“Retail packaging of nicotine inhaling products

10. (1) Subject to subsection (2), a nicotine inhaling product packet shall—

(a) in respect of the outer surface thereof, be of a prescribed colour with a matt finish,

(b) in respect of the inner surface thereof, be of a prescribed colour,

(c) not bear a mark or trademark other than in accordance with subsections (3) and (4),

(d) not have any decorative ridges, embossing or other embellishments on the outer surface thereof,

(e) not contain an adhesive that is coloured or non-transparent, and

(f) not contain any inserted items or affixed items other than as provided for by law.

(2) Paragraphs (a) and (c) of subsection (1) shall not apply to the following:

(a) health warnings;

(b) a bar-code or other similar identification mark that is in accordance with regulations under subsection (5) ;

(c) such other items as are provided for by law.

(3) Subject to subsection (4), the following may be printed on a nicotine inhaling product packet:

(a) a brand name or business name or company name;

(b) a variant name for the nicotine inhaling product concerned.

(4) A name referred to in subsection (3) shall be printed in accordance with regulations under subsection (10) and may be printed—

(a) once on the front outer surface of the nicotine inhaling product packet,

(b) once on the top outer surface of the nicotine inhaling product packet, and

(c) once on the bottom outer surface of the nicotine inhaling product packet, provided that the name does not obscure or interfere with health warnings on the nicotine inhaling product packet.

(5) A bar-code or other similar identification mark may be printed once on a nicotine inhaling product packet in such form and manner as may be prescribed by the Minister, including the colour, dimensions, specifications and positioning of such bar-code or mark, provided that the bar-code or mark does not convey any information to the consumer (including any information conveyed by means of electronic communication).

(6) A nicotine inhaling product packet shall—

(a) be cuboid in shape, the edges of which may be rounded or bevelled,

(b) be made of carton or soft material, and

(c) not contain an opening that can be re-closed or re-opened after it is first opened.

(7) Subsections (1) to (5) shall apply with all necessary modifications to any other form of outside packaging of nicotine inhaling products.

(8) A wrapper that covers a nicotine inhaling product inside the packaging of nicotine inhaling products shall—

(a) be transparent,

(b) not be coloured,

(c) not have any decorative ridges, embossing or other embellishments,

(d) not bear a trade mark,

(e) not have any affixed item, other than as provided for by law.

(9) A wrapper that covers a nicotine inhaling product packet or any other form of outside packaging for a nicotine inhaling product shall—

(a) be transparent,

(b) not be coloured,

(c) not have any decorative ridges, embossing or other embellishments,

(d) not bear a trade mark, and

(e) not have any affixed item, other than as provided for by law.

(10) The Minister may prescribe the manner in which a name referred to in subsection (3) may be printed on a nicotine inhaling product packet or any other form of outside

packaging of nicotine inhaling products, including the colour, font type, font size, positioning and appearance of such a name.

(11) In prescribing matters referred to in subsection (1)(a) or (b) or subsection (10), the Minister shall have regard to—

(a) the need to decrease the appeal of nicotine inhaling products,

(b) the need to increase the effectiveness of health warnings on retail packaging of nicotine inhaling products, and

(c) the need to reduce the ability of retail packaging of nicotine inhaling products to mislead consumers about the harmful effects of nicotine inhaling products.

(12) This section applies to the retail packaging of nicotine inhaling products that are intended for sale by retail in the State.

(13) Subsection (6) applies to the retail packaging of nicotine inhaling products that are intended to be placed on the market.”.

Before I speak to this amendment, I want to make a point. The Minister's earlier outburst slamming the committee was completely unwarranted and a bit of an insult to us when we have put in so much time doing pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill. The idea that the request to have a report on the operation of the legislation after 12 months, which is what we recommended back in July, would give rise to that kind of slamming of the committee is really unacceptable. We are looking for a report. We want to ensure this legislation actually does the job it is intended to do and our putting forward the reasonable request that we get a report after 12 months did not warrant the kind of outburst we heard from him.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

May I respond to that?

An Cathaoirleach

Let Deputy Shortall finish and then respond. I want to see if anyone else wants to come in. I do not want a back and forth.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

I hear you. Thanks, Chair.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

This is about retail packaging of nicotine inhaling products, including vapes. The purpose of them is to allow the inhalation of varying quantities of nicotine. The whole idea is sucking in young people and getting them to a point where they will want to smoke after a certain period of vaping. It gives them a taste for nicotine and some of the buzz from it as well. I have taken this section directly from the Public Health (Tobacco) Act to provide for severe restrictions on the packaging, colouring and so on of the containers for the vapes and any packaging associated with it. It comes straight from that Act. The packaging should have a bar code so we can trace where it has come from and there are provisions about the brand name, the name of the company and all of that kind of thing.

The idea is essentially to make vapes less attractive to people. The clear messaging about the dangers of vaping need to be displayed on the packaging concerned. The clear intention of the tobacco companies, many of which own vaping companies, is to entice young people and any element of that at all should be outlawed. It would be helpful to the public health campaign to discourage young people from being attracted by vaping products and ensure that for those aged under 18 years it is a less attractive activity, as well as being outlawed by this legislation. It should also not be made an attractive thing, or more attractive to persons aged over 18 years by virtue of colours, pictures on the packaging and the general marketing of these products. I hope the Minister will consider accepting the amendment.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Lahart wishes to comment.

Deputy John Lahart

The Chair will have to forgive me as I have to make a contribution to the debate on the budget in the House. I do not blame the Minister for responding the way he did. It indicated a degree of passion about the Bill he is trying to bring in and get passed. I share the regret it has delayed the banning of the sale of vaping products to children for at least eight months. It is not often we hear politicians being passionate about things, so I found it refreshing.

An Cathaoirleach

No one else is offering so we return to the Minister.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

As previously, I agree with the intent here. We are going to legislate and we will be doing so in a way that does not delay the intent of this Bill, including, obviously, the sale of vapes to minors. I hear Deputy Shortall, but we in government are responsible for our actions and we are held to account by the Opposition, rightly, for what we do. If the Deputy takes an action that I believe potentially puts children's safety at risk then in same way she holds me to account, I will speak up and criticise her for that. It is that simple. I hope the addition of a review will not delay the implementation of this Bill. However, the vote we just went through, which she also pressed and voted for, would most certainly require the notification to the EU, so whether it applies or not to the review, it most certainly would apply to this amendment and to the one she just voted to bring through. I make no apologies for being very passionate about looking to protect the safety of children. We have to bring this in and we have to bring it in now. The Deputy may not like that criticism. I do not always like the criticism directed at me. However, Opposition must be able to account for its actions just like Government. That is simply my view on it.

An Cathaoirleach

Is Deputy Shortall responding or doing something with the amendment?

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I am making another comment. The Minister's comments and his insults to the committee relate to the amendment we are discussing, which was about reporting after 12 months on the operation of this legislation.

On the other issues, on the things I and the committee feel strongly should be contained in this, the Minister has promised to bring forward a second piece of legislation. We got the legislative programme recently. Nowhere in that programme, in the form of legislation being drafted or heads being drafted, is there any contemplation at all of a second Bill on the issue of vaping. There is no mention of that anywhere in the legislative programme. The other point is that this committee spent a long time going through the pre-legislative scrutiny process. It took several months. The Minister's officials would presumably have been aware of what was coming up there. He would have been aware of public opinion on this. The Irish Cancer Society commissioned an Ipsos poll that gave very clear answers about what the public wanted. We also know from that poll that the kind of impact the various child-related flavours, packaging and the disposable vapes have and how they are viewed by children.

Extensive polling was done on children in third and fourth year. It showed that the measures the tobacco industry is using work. They are very effective. We spend a lot of time talking about the social determinants of health. These are the commercial determinants of health. It is very important that the Government stands up to big tobacco and the other interests that want to see more and more young people taking up vaping in order that, in time, they will take up smoking as well. This really has nothing to do with getting people to cease smoking. Then it would be just about the flavourings and the packaging. Quite clearly, the game plan is to suck more and more young people into the activity of vaping at huge cost to their own health and public health generally.

The other point I would make about the pre-legislative scrutiny process is that all of those messages were coming across about how the committee wanted the legislation to operate and that we wanted it to be comprehensive and deal with all aspects of this very insidious fairly recent new activity. We sent the Minister the completed pre-legislative scrutiny report in July. That is four months out of the six months. We would have expected him to take on board what we were recommending very strongly. There were very clear recommendations from this committee. If the Minister had done that, we would be in a position now to have a very comprehensive piece of legislation dealing with all aspects of vaping by Christmas, but, unfortunately, it seems that nobody was listening to what this committee said. It has made a bit of a joke out of the whole pre-legislative scrutiny process. The Minister had the opportunity. He had a lot of notice about this. Nowhere at all in the legislative programme do we see any indication of the Minister taking on board the recommendations from this committee and many other bodies in regard to what he needed to do to have a comprehensive response to the threat to public health of vaping. The Minister must accept some of that criticism because there is no point in half doing a job, we should be doing it properly, which is what this committee wants.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

The Deputy and I have debated in this committee room many times. I find her comments utterly disingenuous and cynical. What she is doing is playing around with timing and words, which she is very good at, but ultimately what she is doing is potentially delaying a ban on the sale of vapes to children. She knows that is what she is doing. She is probably the most experienced person in the Oireachtas in this room. I find it utterly disingenuous and utterly cynical. Deputy Shortall knows it. What she is doing right now is playing politics with children's health. Yes, we got the pre-legislative scrutiny report in July, and when was this committee scheduled for? It was September, but it had to be delayed so here we are now. If we did what Deputy Shortall is voting on and what she was insisting on, what would happen is what she described earlier on: we would be back here in eight months' time with children buying vapes legally in shops; eight months of tobacco and cigarettes in vending machines; eight months of not bringing in a licensing system. Deputy Shortall can dress it up any way she wants but, ultimately, that is what she is trying to force through here today and she knows it. I find it genuinely disappointing. Deputy Shortall has a job to do. I have a job to do. But this committee generally works together when it comes to public health issues. It is deeply disappointing that Deputy Shortall has decided to play politics with something this important.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Chair-----

An Cathaoirleach

Again, I ask that people would stick to the amendment that we are discussing rather than anything else. I understand that people might want to respond but the sensible thing would be to try to get the legislation through. I am not supposed to comment on what people are saying but I ask everyone to please work with the Chair and let us try to finish the debate on the legislation before us.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I echo all of that. In order that we might have a shortcut through this, could I get some clarification on whether the last successful amendment will delay the legislation for eight months?

An Cathaoirleach

Who is the Deputy looking for clarification from?

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

From the Minister. It was the Minister who said it.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

The advice given to me is that amendment No. 3 will hopefully not delay it, but the amendment that has just been voted on and this amendment would delay it.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

But the amendment we voted on before amendment No. 3 would not delay it for eight months. Is that the clarification?

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

The amendment we just voted on, amendment No. 4, would have delayed it.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

No, but I am asking the Minister about the successful amendment.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

My advice is that amendment No. 3-----

An Cathaoirleach

We are talking about amendment No. 6.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Yes, and I just asked for a point of clarification about the successful amendment.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

Amendment No. 6 would delay the legislation.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Could we perhaps just clarify this? I am a bit confused with the response. Which of these amendments is the Minister saying would delay the legislation?

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

Amendment No. 6, which we are on now. Amendment No. 4, which we just voted on and amendments Nos. 7 and 8, and amendment No. 2. Amendments Nos. 1, 3, and 9 should not.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Okay, but the Minister's comments related to amendment No. 3.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

My comments relate to amendment No. 4, which we voted on, and this amendment as well.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

We have not got to No. 4.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I am sorry, but we have not got to amendment No. 4.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

Deputy Shortall knows very well-----

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Anyway, let us move on.

An Cathaoirleach

How stands the amendment? Is it being pressed?

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Yes.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Section 10, as amended, agreed to.

Sections 11 to 28, inclusive, agreed to.

NEW SECTION

An Cathaoirleach

Amendments Nos. 7 and 8 are related.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I move amendment No. 7:

In page 20, between lines 1 and 2, to insert the following:

“Prohibition on the advertising of nicotine inhaling products

29. (1) A person shall not advertise, or cause the advertisement of, a nicotine inhaling product.

(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) commits an offence.

(3 ) In this section, “advertisement” includes, in relation to a nicotine inhaling product,every form of recommendation of the product to the public, including online.”.

The purpose of amendment No. 7, which relates to section 29, is to prohibit the advertising of nicotine-inhaling products so that nobody can advertise or cause the advertising of such products.

This relates to recommendation No. 15 of the report of this committee, which states, "The Bill should contain measures to prohibit all forms of e-cigarette advertising and promotions, including on billboards, online on all social media platforms, and influencer marketing methods." Again, this is about protecting children and doing it fully.

It is welcome that this legislation is about banning the sale to under-18s but we also know that banning cigarettes for under-18s needed a whole lot of other measures to make it effective. If anything now, the phenomenon of vaping is even more attractive to children than cigarettes - a lot more attractive. That is all the more reason any element of advertising or promotion of vaping should be banned and against the law. That view was strongly expressed by the committee at the time when we were doing the pre-legislative scrutiny. I would hope the Minister will take that on board.

An Cathaoirleach

As no-one else wishes to come in on amendments Nos. 7 and 8, the Minister may speak.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

Amendments Nos. 7 and 8 seek to prohibit the advertising of nicotine-inhaling products, including online advertising. The amendments replace section 29, which prohibits advertising near schools and playgrounds as well as on public transport, and oppose section 30, which prohibits the advertising of nicotine-inhaling products in a cinema.

The 2014 EU tobacco products directive prohibited the advertising of e-cigarettes in printed publications, on television, on radio and online. The directive also prohibits a contribution to an event, activity or person with the aim of promoting e-cigarettes and with a cross-border effect. The EU directive was transposed into Irish law as the European Union (Manufacture, Presentation and Sale of Tobacco and Related Products) Regulations 2016. We will examine the options for further regulation of advertising in the context of the aspects that are already harmonised at an EU level.

The proposals in this Bill are designed to address some of the remaining forms of advertising for nicotine-inhaling products that target children. As previously advised, I do not want to introduce measures into this Bill that would require EU notification, which would set us back. There would be no guarantee, of course, that the Commission would necessarily accept what we are proposing.

Essentially, the law already covers most of what is in the amendment and other areas we are considering, for example, point of sale, as we already discussed. I would like to see significant movement on restrictions in terms of point of sale for this, which we already have in place for alcohol and tobacco. Essentially, the Bill that is in development now is looking at what areas are left that are not already covered in the 2014 directive and then transposed in the 2016 regulation.

An Cathaoirleach

Does anyone else want to come in?

Deputy John Lahart

The implication is the same as the Minister's previous exhortation, which fell on deaf ears, that this will delay some measures if the amendment is passed. That is what I am saying. It will have to go to the European Union for consideration.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

Yes, there are two separate risks with this proposal and, indeed, the other proposal if we are to do them in this Bill. The first, which we definitely know, is that this Bill will be delayed because we are legally obliged to go through the EU directive. It is also possible that the Commission would come back and say "No" on some of them. We had to go through a very significant process, for example, with the alcohol labelling Act and various alcohol controls we introduced in the time of this Government. Both of those are in place. Therefore, yes, the same argument applies that it would delay the Bill.

I will make an additional point. Unlike the other debates we have had where there are no restrictions in place at the moment in terms of flavouring and packaging, and we need to come down like a tonne of bricks on all of those, there are already very comprehensive restrictions in place on advertising. It cannot be advertised online, on television, on radio and in printed publications. Contributions cannot be made to an event or person who might be promoting at an event for sponsorship essentially. They are already in place. I think we can go further, however. We are cognisant of the committee's good work, as I said earlier, and very grateful for it. One of the most important areas is point of sale advertising.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

It strikes me that the House will need to look again at the pre-legislative scrutiny process in terms of what the Minister is claiming. He is saying that some of these things need notice. If that is the case, there should be a health warning in relation to pre-legislative scrutiny. I will take that up further because if what the Minister is saying is true, the committee has been misled somewhat. One wonders why all this work was done. Why did we go through all of that? It was pretty painstaking.

The other point I would make is that I recognise what the Minister is saying about the rules in place already regarding advertising. Sometimes we are inclined to think about traditional media and traditional types of advertising. The promotion of alcohol, gambling and smoking and vaping is much more subtle, however. It is targeted at young people. It is much more about product placement and influencers. I do not believe that area is covered by the rules that apply at the moment or by what the Minister is proposing. I ask him to take this on board. He accepts there may be improvements to be made to what he is already saying in the legislation. I ask that he consider taking on board these points for an amendment from him on Report Stage.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

Yes, I agree. In spite of our previous interaction, I agree with almost everything the Deputy is saying. It is simply a matter of timing on which we are disagreeing. We need to go further on advertising. The Deputy raised the issue of influencers and actually they are not regulated. It is a gap not just on this issue but more broadly. It is something we can talk to the media commission about because there is an interesting role for Coimisiún na Meán to play. The advice I have is that we have not gotten our heads around this as a legislature. We do not have legislation or regulations in place that comprehensively address it. I agree that it is a gap. I do not think it is a gap, by the way, that we will be able to close in the second Bill. It is quite a complex piece of legislation and regulation. It is something that needs to be looked at more broadly. It is certainly something I can take back to the various line Ministers.

An Cathaoirleach

The last point, please.

Deputy John Lahart

It becomes a little bit like asking, "How long is a piece of string?". One of the things that strikes me about tobacco, for example, is that it does not ever seem to be necessary for the tobacco industry or film industry to credit tobacco with the funding of movies. I have always been of the impression that this is the case, however. It is particularly insidious in some movies. One cannot watch a scene without someone lighting up and the cigarette being presented in a very seductive kind of way. People can go to some movies where a cigarette can appear immediately. A movie is an hour and a half or two hours long. It would be an interesting exercise to count how many of the principal characters are smoking or how many times the principal actor smokes a cigarette. I do not know. There are clearly no rules or laws governing that. It happens in many movies. I have often wondered whether there is a connection between the number of times cigarettes appear in movies and the funding of those movies. That is something the Minister cannot address in this legislation but perhaps it can be looked at from a European perspective when the EU decides to come up with regulations on this. I am making the assumption that cigarette companies are funding the movie industry, given how prevalent the act of smoking is in movies. It gives the impression that the trend is going in the other direction.

The trend is going in the other direction. It has almost gone back to the sexy way in which the act of smoking was presented. It is very difficult to combat that. As a former smoker, that is one of those things I find. You would come out of a movie and you would have a craving and wonder where it has come from. It has come from the fact that this is not even subliminal; it is very extra-liminal. It is right there in your face and you cannot get away from it. Influencers have been mentioned but there are no more influential people than George Clooney, or other role models like him. We see people in movies constantly dragging on a cigarette.

An Cathaoirleach

Does anyone else want to say anything on that? I want to move on. Does the Minister need to reply? No. How stands the amendment?

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Is the Minister prepared to look at that to see if he can extend the existing provisions? I suggest the words "every form of recommendation", or some form of words like that, which would enable him to pursue those other areas such as influencers, product placement and that kind of thing.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

Yes, we will.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Will the Minister come back with his own proposal on Report Stage?

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

We will not do it by amending this Bill, but we can incorporate exactly that thinking in the new Bill. Again, if we incorporate it in this Bill, we will kick off a delay.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I am pressing that amendment.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Sections 29 to 33, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 34

An Cathaoirleach

Amendment No. 8 in the name of Deputy Shortall has already been discussed with amendment No. 7. If the question on amendment No. 7 has been negative, then amendment No. 8 cannot be moved.

Amendment No. 8 not moved.

Section 34 agreed to.

Sections 35 to 48, inclusive, agreed to.

NEW SECTION

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I move amendment No. 9:

49. In page 39, between lines 2 and 3, to insert the following:

“Report into the cost of smoking cessation supports

49. The Minister shall, within six months of the passing of this Act, lay a report before both Houses of the Oireachtas examining the cost of smoking cessation supports to individuals quitting cigarettes and the impact of making smoking cessation supports more widely available to those wishing to quit cigarettes.”.

Before we take a decision on this, I ask the Minister to clarify what he was saying at the beginning of this session about that report on cessation supports.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

Sorry, what was the Deputy’s question?

Deputy Róisín Shortall

It is on the report. The committee has called for a report within six months on smoking cessation supports to individuals who are trying to quit cigarettes.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

On this point, what I was proposing was not to wait for the Bill. This was to make the point that there are quite a number of smoking cessation reports that have now come in. Several million additional euro went into the budget and various new things have happened this year. I was, therefore, going to propose that the officials do a report now and submit it to the committee for consideration.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

That is okay.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the Deputy pressing the amendment?

Deputy Róisín Shortall

No. I will withdraw the amendment on the basis of what the Minister has said.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sections 49 and 50 agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported with amendment.