Select Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Nov 2023

Local Government (Mayor of Limerick) Bill 2023: Committee Stage

An Cathaoirleach

Deputies Buckley and Quinlivan are substituting for Deputies Gould and Ó Broin. They are both welcome. This meeting has been convened to consider Committee Stage of the Local Government (Mayor of Limerick) Bill 2023. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, and his officials to our meeting. We will now proceed with consideration of the Bill.

Before we move to section 1, I will read a note relating to amendment No. 36, which contains a slight typographical error after the word "referendum". It should read 'referendum,"'. We will note this, should the amendment be accepted when reached.

Section 1 agreed to.

SECTION 2

An Cathaoirleach

Amendments Nos. 1, 85, 87 and 93 are related and may be discussed together.

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Kieran O'Donnell)

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 8, between lines 10 and 11, to insert the following:

“ “Commission” means An Coimisiún Toghcháin;”.

These amendments relate to the role of the Electoral Commission regarding the holding of future plebiscites and some minor consequential amendments. Part 6 of the Bill deals with the holding of plebiscites to consider proposals by other local authorities to provide for a directly elected mayor of their administrative area. This part of the Bill is based on similar plebiscite provisions in the Local Government Act 2019, with some changes. Under the 2019 Act, the relevant local authority was required to provide information in relation to the plebiscite proposal to the electors in advance of the holding of the plebiscite. However, the new Electoral Commission, An Coimisiún Toghcháin, is now established and has a role to provide information to the public on electoral and other events and to encourage participation in same. The Bill, therefore, identifies the Electoral Commission as the appropriate body to fulfil the role of providing information to the public in relation to plebiscites held in the future. The purpose of these amendments is to clarify the role of both the Minister and the commission in providing information to the public prior to a plebiscite being held. My Department has consulted with the Electoral Commission on this matter.

Amendment No. 85 is the substantive amendment and it replaces subsections (6) and (7) of section 43 with new subsections. New subsection (6) restates much of existing subsection (7) by setting out the details of the specific information that should be provided to the public in advance of a plebiscite for a directly elected mayor, such as the functions of the office, the likely effect on the local authority concerned and the likely cost or resource implications of the proposal. This subsection clarifies it is the Minister’s role to provide the commission with the core policy information in that respect and that this should be done in a timely manner to enable the commission comply with its obligations. New subsection (7) sets out the commission’s obligations. It provides that, not unlike its role regarding referendums, the commission will prepare a statement or statements, which will include a summary of the information provided by the Minister as set out in new subsection (6). It also provides that the commission has discretion to include such further information as it considers appropriate. Following that, and no later than 30 days prior to a plebiscite, the commission is obliged to publish and distribute the statements so as to bring the plebiscite proposal to the attention of the electors, in both the Irish and English language.

Amendment No. 1 is a technical amendment, which inserts a definition in section 2 of the Bill, that "Commission" means "An Coimisiún Toghcháin", as the term is used in both Part 6 of and Schedule 2 to the Bill.

Amendments Nos. 87 and 93 are both minor consequential amendments to section 44 and Schedule 2 to the Bill in order that the term "Commission" is used consistently throughout the Bill, with the meaning assigned under section 2.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 2, as amended, agreed to.

Sections 3 to 6, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 7

An Cathaoirleach

Amendments Nos. 2 to 5, inclusive, are related and may be discussed together.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 10, line 25, to delete “3 years” and substitute “2 years”.

We are proposing this change so the review of the democratically elected mayor can be carried out in a shorter timeframe. This is important to ensure the review is completed in as much time as possible to before the next election for mayor takes place. The review will be shorter and provide more time. We propose an amendment from three years to two years.

Deputy Brian Leddin

Amendment No. 4 is to clarify that each councillor on Limerick City and County Council will get individual input into the review of the Act, rather than a compromise opinion from the council as a whole. That is important. On amendment No. 5, it is important that experts in local government have input into the process. It is a reasonable amendment to suggest that individuals would be employed who have knowledge or expertise in the administration of local government in Ireland and internationally. It would improve the Bill.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I propose to address amendments Nos. 2 to 5, inclusive, together as they have been grouped for discussion. They relate to section 7 of the Bill, which provides a mechanism to review the operation of the legislation after a three year period. Amendments Nos. 2 and 3 propose to reduce the period within which a review should be conducted by the Minister after the office of the mayor is established, from three years to two years. I acknowledge the intention behind Deputy Quinlivan’s amendments. Once the office of mayor is established and the mayor is in situ for an appropriate period of time, there will be a need to review the operation and effectiveness of this novel and historic legislation. I think we all agree with that. That is already in the legislation, in terms of its principle.

It comes down to the question of what is the appropriate time to hold the review and a number of factors need to be considered. The independent advisory group report recommended the review should take place at the end of the third year of the mayoral term to enable the enactment of any legislative changes required and reflect the assignment of any new functions in advance of the next mayoral election. The Bill is consistent with that approach. The pre-legislative scrutiny report suggested a review after a period of one year, which is a short time. The proposal in the amendment for a review after two years is still relatively short.

It is important that adequate time is provided to allow for the embedding and integration of the new structures for Limerick City and County Council provided for in the Bill. This would include, for example, the office of mayor itself, the progression of the mayoral programme and the operation of the Limerick mayoral advisory and implementation committee and so on.

On balance, I consider that a three-year period is an appropriate period for the holding of a review. I note that nothing would prevent a review being carried out in advance of that. As the legislation is constructed, it can take place prior to the end of a three-year period. It would either be completed three months after the three-year period or at an earlier time.

I should also mention the importance of the role of the Limerick mayoral and government consultative forum which will facilitate engagement between the mayor and national government. It will also review and advise on how the new structures are operating. This will feed into any review of the legislation.

I will outline the context for Deputy Quinlivan. If a mayor goes in, let us say, in June of next year, he or she would bring in two budgets at the end of that year. There would be a budget for one year, 2025. It is just to give that requisite time period. I know the principle Deputy Quinlivan is putting forward but we are looking at the logistics of it. The review can happen earlier but it does allow for a period of time under the legislation in line with the recommendation of Tim O'Connor's advisory group.

I will now turn to amendments Nos. 4 and 5 from my Limerick colleague, Deputy Leddin, which propose amendments to section 7(2). Subsection (2) sets out that when undertaking the review of the legislation, the Minister shall consult the mayor, the forum, the council and any other person the Minister considers appropriate. Amendment No. 4 proposes that instead of consulting the council, the Minister should consult each member individually. As the existing provision enables the consultation with both the council and any person the Minister considers appropriate, we believe this amendment is unnecessary. I am also of the view that the council should act in a collective fashion when feeding into such a review. The council chamber is about the collective.

Separately, the effect of amendment No. 5 is that the Minister shall consult "individuals with knowledge of, or expertise in, the administration of local government in Ireland and internationally" as part of the review. The proposed amendment is very broad and essentially places a statutory obligation on the Minister to consult what is an unknown and potentially vast number of such persons. Meeting such a statutory obligation could prove to be impossible and indeed impractical. While I appreciate the amendment is well-intentioned, I cannot accept it. For that reason, I am proposing that a review can happen in less than three years, as a practical measure. We feel that while, in fairness, Deputy Leddin's amendment is well-intentioned, the concern is the practical implications for us. The most important point is that there is a review mechanism in the Bill. The review is done through the implementation group and it gives flexibility to the Minister and the implementation group with regard to the review.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 10, line 27, to delete "3 years" and substitute "2 years".

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Deputy Brian Leddin

I move amendment No. 4:

In page 10, line 31, to delete "Limerick City and County Council" and substitute "members of Limerick City and County Council individually".

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Deputy Brian Leddin

I move amendment No. 5:

In page 10, line 31, after "forum" to insert the following:

", individuals with knowledge of, or expertise in, the administration of local government in Ireland and internationally".

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 7 agreed to.

Section 8 agreed to.

SECTION 9

An Cathaoirleach

Amendments Nos. 6 and 7 are related and may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed. As Deputy Paul Murphy is not present, the amendment falls.

Amendment No. 6 not moved.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I move amendment No. 7:

In page 11, between lines 29 and 30, to insert the following:

"(a) Furthermore, the Mayor shall not engage in any other type of paid employment during their term of office.".

We feel strongly about this amendment. We believe that if the position is to be truly transformative for local democracy, the position of the mayor must be the sole focus of anybody elected. We do not want to allow for other employment during the term of office. It would be a definite signal to the electorate that this is not a role that has much value and it would diminish the role. We believe that if this office it is to have value, it must be the single focus for any elected mayor. The removal of any opportunity for a trade or other occupational opportunities will ensure the integrity of the position is maintained. The concern we have is that the legislation allows for somebody to be elected and to delegate all the functions and have a second job as well. That would destroy not just the position of the directly elected mayor in Limerick but the potential for it to be rolled out in other local authorities if they were to see that happen in Limerick. That is the reason we tabled this amendment. I note that Deputy Murphy's amendment falls.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Amendment No. 7 from my colleague in Limerick, Deputy Quinlivan, seeks to prevent the mayor from engaging in other paid employment during his or her term. The office of mayor of Limerick is a full-time role, and it will be a demanding one. The successful candidate will have a key role in driving progress across all aspects of local government for the people of Limerick city and county.

The Bill is already very clear on both of these matters. Section 9(5) states that the mayor will serve on a full-time basis for his or her term of office and section 9(8) provides that the mayor is prohibited from engaging in any occupation which would interfere or be incompatible with his or her role as mayor. In addition, the mayor will be subject to the ethics provisions in the Local Government Act and the codes of conduct for the local government service. I believe the provisions in the Bill are appropriate and I do not propose to accept these amendments.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I thank the Minister of State for his clarification. The concern we have is who is going to define the interference specified in the legislation going forward. We have a serious concern about it so we will push this amendment.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

We cannot accept the amendment. The logic is that Oireachtas Members can currently have other careers so the Bill is compatible with that. There are two relevant subsections, subsections (5) and (8). Subsection (5) states the position is full time and subsection (8) qualifies that by providing a person is "prohibited from engaging in any occupation which would interfere or be incompatible with their role as mayor". What is there very much mirrors what is in place for Oireachtas Members. There is a logic in what we have put forward. On that basis, I do not propose to accept the amendment.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

While I accept the Minister of State's clarification, we still have the concern that the mayor can delegate a lot of functions to the new director general. We will come to this later in the debate.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

While I am not promising anything, we will look at this again before Report Stage. We can work on the legislation in the spirit of partnership. We will look at this before Report Stage. Deputy Quinlivan may want to reserve the right to reintroduce his amendment on Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 9 agreed to.

SECTION 10

An Cathaoirleach

Amendments Nos. 8 and 92 are related and will be discussed together.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I move amendment No 8:

In page 12, between lines 8 and 9, to insert the following:

"(6) The Mayor shall have as a function an ambassadorial role in the promotion and delivery of a living wage in business contained within the administrative area covered by Limerick City and County Council.

(7) The Mayoral role shall have promotional and delivery responsibilities in the advertising and promoting of Limerick as a national and international tourist destination.

(8) The Mayoral role shall have responsibility for the organising and chairing of the Joint Policing Committee.

(9) The Mayor shall have executive powers in the realms waste management.

(10) The Mayor shall have executive powers for public realm improvements including disused and unused public spaces.

(11) The Mayor shall have oversight with regards to the implementation of the Limerick regeneration projects, and any subsequent regeneration programmes, and shall produce an annual report to be delivered to Councillors regarding the status of the regeneration programmes.

(12) The Mayoral role shall, subject to section 213 of the Planning and Development Act 2000, incorporate executive functions from the Chief Executive the realms of land acquisition, with all purchases being subject to the ratification of Limerick City and County Council.".

This amendment proposes that the mayor have a role in the introduction of the living wage based on the commitment in the programme for Government. My party and I are committed to delivering a living wage, which allows a person to live with dignity. If the mayor were allowed a promotional and ambassadorial role in the delivery of the living wage, it would allow for this idea and ambition to be highlighted to a large number of people. Allowing the mayor to promote and be a champion of the living wage would be a positive reinforcement of what the Government has allowed for in the programme for Government.

Deputy Brian Leddin

I will speak to amendment No. 92. The Minister of State and my other colleagues from Limerick know that Limerick City and County Council very successfully operates a number of designated activity companies, DACs, in the form of Limerick 2030, which is doing excellent work. Another is the new tourism body and there are others. These companies are generally very effective.

In the context of a new directly elected mayor being able to pursue his or her mandate, and vision for the city and the county, it is important that the mayor would also have that power to set up this kind of company. Any candidate who stands in the mayoral election will stand on a particular policy platform. It makes sense to set up this kind of company owned by the local authority, which would have the ability to borrow. I can think of examples in the tradition of directly elected mayors across Europe, north America and also Great Britain. If there is a gap in the transport services being provided by the national bus or rail company, a mayor stands on the basis that he or she will fill that gap. They might consider it makes sense to set up a local transport company. Waste would be another example.

This amendment is about giving the mayor the power to get something significant going that would fill a gap they have identified and which, if filled, would be meaningful to the people of Limerick city and county. As it stands, the council has the power to set up such a company. However, if we want to have a serious transfer of functions to a directly elected mayor, it would make sense that the mayor would also have that power and that he or she would stand in a mayoral election on the basis that he or she would set up such a vehicle.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I did not address the amendment properly.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I would have covered it anyway.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I only addressed a portion of it. There are other parts to our amendment that I would like to address now. The mayor should have responsibility for advertising and promoting Limerick. A directly elected mayor with real powers would have a level of influence and clout that other elected members, such as Deputies and Senators, do not have at the moment. The prestige of the position makes it extremely suitable for an elected mayor to champion the delivery of tourism in great numbers and get more people to come and visit Limerick.

We suggest that the mayor should have responsibility for organising and chairing the joint policing committee. While this may remove a power from the local councillors, it is thought that the chairperson of the Limerick city and county joint policing committee, JPC, has power that should rest with the new mayor of the entire Limerick city and county areas.

The other part of our amendment deals with executive power relating to waste management, as mentioned by Deputy Leddin. This amendment seeks to give the mayor responsibility for waste management with the specific intention of increasing efficiency in how waste is collected and managed across the county. The Competition and Consumer Protection Commission report of 2018 which was commissioned by the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment suggested that the current structure is not in the interests of consumers or the environment. Many areas of the city and county will have multiple companies servicing streets. For instance, my street has eight houses and four suppliers, sometimes with two or three different lorries on the same street in the one day. It is not efficient and this is an opportunity to give the mayor a tangible success in the interests of people in the first term.

Another issue we want addressed in that amendment was the mayor's executive powers for public realm improvement, including unused public spaces. This is something that any incoming mayor, whoever he or she maybe, should address. It is crucial for the success of the directly elected mayor project that the elected mayor have sufficient powers to nullify the concern that the position would just be a ribbon-cutting position. One area of significant power of decision-making is around the use of idle public spaces. Unfortunately, most cities, towns and villages have a lot of that and it could be done much better.

The mayor will have direct impact in the Limerick regeneration programme. As most people, especially people from Limerick, will be aware, regeneration in Limerick is a mixed bag. What led to the regeneration programme was the feud in the mid-2000s. In some ways it has failed some of the communities and in others it has been a really good success enhancing areas most impacted by the feud. There have been successes and failures across all three pillars of the regeneration project. It is fair to say that the areas are better for the involvement of regeneration agencies. Regeneration is not just about bricks and mortar. It is also about social inclusion and community participation, and it has worked really well. It is crucial that any future regeneration funding and schemes are directed to the areas that most need them. Giving control of this roll-out to a Limerick-based and elected mayor will enhance the probability that these resources are delivered in the areas that need them most. It is important that the mayor also has that function.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I propose to address amendments Nos. 8 and 92, as they have been grouped together for discussion.

Amendment No. 8 proposes to insert new subsections in section 10, which deals with the functions of the mayor. There are seven new subsections proposed and I will speak to each of these in turn.

New subsection (6) proposes that the mayor would have an ambassadorial role in the promotion and delivery of a living wage in business in Limerick. As the Deputy is no doubt in his role of Chair of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment, the Government has committed to progressing to a national living wage by 2026. This will be achieved via incremental increases to the national minimum wage. As part of budget 2024, the Government agreed to accept the recommendation of the Low Pay Commission to increase the national minimum wage to €12.70 per hour from 1 January 2024. This represents an €1.40 increase, or 12.4%, on the current national minimum wage of €11.30 per hour. This increase shows the Government’s commitment to introducing a national living wage by January 2026. The national minimum wage will be retitled to the national living wage when the threshold of 60% of median wage is reached.

As the national minimum wage has a statutory basis and is the legal minimum wage that must be paid to employees, subject to limited exceptions such as younger workers, family members and apprentices, there should be no need for an ambassadorial role in its promotion and delivery and, therefore, it is not appropriate to include this provision in the Bill.

New subsection (7) proposes that the mayor would have a promotion and delivery role in promoting Limerick as a tourist destination. I acknowledge the intent of the amendment, which is a good one. Through the increased focus on Limerick’s many attractions in recent times, Limerick is taking its rightful place on the national and international stage as a tourist centre. However, I agree that even more work could be done in this area to capitalise on Limerick’s full potential and the mayor will be a key driver of that work. That is why I ensured that this important role is reflected in the Bill. This is something I specifically inserted into the legislation. I am very conscious of it. Under section 32, the mayor will establish a Limerick mayoral advisory and implementation committee. One of the functions of the committee, chaired by the mayor, will be to promote, foster and support economic, touristic, social and cultural activities in Limerick, also including rural areas. I accept the spirit of the Deputy’s amendment but cannot accept it on the basis that it is already reflected in the Bill.

The new subsection (8) proposes the mayor would have a role in organising and chairing the JPC. The Deputy may be aware that the Policing, Security and Community Safety Bill 2023, which is sponsored by my colleague, the Minister for Justice, has completed its passage through this House and is now before Seanad Éireann. Under the provisions of that Bill, joint policing committees are to be stood down next year. I cannot accept an amendment that the new mayor would chair an entity that will shortly be replaced.

More broadly, I am in favour of the mayor having a role in the new local community safety partnerships which will replace JPCs. I understand that the pilot local community safety partnerships in Longford, Waterford and Dublin’s north-east inner city are the subject of an evaluation process. That process aims to support the establishment of partnerships beyond the pilot phase, including the most appropriate procedure to appoint chairs of the partnerships.

I understand that an independent chair has been a significant feature of the pilots. The Department of Justice has asked the evaluators to consider the possibility of elected mayors as partnership chairs, and the evaluation findings are expected shortly. The appointment of chairs is a matter which may be subject to secondary legislation by the Minister for Justice, as provided for in the Policing, Security and Community Safety Bill, and will be informed by the benefit of the final evaluation of the pilot programme. When the plebiscite was put to the people of Limerick in June 2019, it provided that the mayor would chair the JPC. We are following up on that and we are very committed to it.

The new subsection (9) proposes the mayor shall have executive powers in the realm of waste management. The general scheme of the Bill provided that all executive functions provided for under the Waste Management Act 1996 and all executive functions relating to waste and waste management arising from EU legislation, are functions to be retained by the director general. This is, in part, reflected in the Bill and I propose to introduce amendments to Schedule 1 on Report Stage.

We are nearly finalising in terms of the particular areas of legislation that apply to the director general to make complete provision for the operation. I will put on notice that we will bring forward a final amendment on Schedule 1 on Report Stage for the operation of waste management in line with the general scheme. Therefore, I cannot accept this amendment.

The position in the Bill reflects engagement with the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications, which has responsibility for waste policy. The rationale for the approach is that the preparation of a waste management plan is a statutory requirement under EU regulations. While originally this was a reserved function, under the 1996 Act it, became an executive function. Since then, waste management plans have been adopted on regional basis to include the entire country. In 2021, it was agreed that the regions would together prepare one national waste management plan for a circular economy and this plan will be made in quarter one of next year. This successful collaboration has allowed Ireland to continue to satisfy the binding requirements set out in Article 28 of the waste framework directive regarding the production of waste management plans.

New subsection (10) proposes the mayor shall have executive powers for public realm improvements, including disused and unused public spaces. We would like to see more clarity in respect of this amendment's intent and in terms of whether it is proposing a role for the mayor in the implementation of public realm improvements or in the consenting processes. In this regard, I would note a number of general points. The Planning Act does not specify development types regarding "public realm improvement". It does provide that all local authority works are exempt from planning permission. However, certain development types, the thresholds for which are relatively low, require the local authority's own development process under section 179 of the Planning Act and this is a reserved function of the elected members. It is important to note that the mayor is one of those members are well. This Bill does not create new functions relating to development consent nor does it remove reserved functions from the elected members. Therefore, I cannot accept this amendment.

New subsection (11) proposes that the mayor shall have oversight of the implementation of the Limerick regeneration projects and any subsequent regeneration programmes - I know Deputy Quinlivan has a particular interest in this area and has highlighted it in his role as Deputy for the Limerick City constituency - and shall produce an annual report to be delivered to councillors regarding the status of the regeneration programmes. I agree that the mayor will have an important role in the oversight and advancement of regeneration generally in Limerick and that is reflected in this Bill. Under section 32, and this is something I deliberately put into the Bill, the mayor will establish a Limerick mayoral advisory and implementation committee and one of the functions of the committee will be "the coordination in Limerick of measures giving effect to Government policy concerning the regeneration of towns".

Under section 33, the mayor will also chair the Limerick Project Ireland 2040 delivery board, which will focus on implementation of the national planning framework and the national development plan in the Limerick area. One of the functions of the delivery board will include collaborating with bodies involved in "the arrangement, co-ordination and provision of social and economic regeneration measures including the development and improvement of land and infrastructure". Again, while I accept the spirit of the Deputy’s amendment, I cannot accept it on the basis that it duplicates what is already reflected in the Bill.

On a more general note, regeneration projects do not have a separate statutory basis. In Limerick, the Limerick regeneration framework implementation plan is the programme of works setting out the shared vision for stronger communities within regeneration areas. The local strategic advisory and monitoring group oversees the implementation of the plan. This advisory group includes representatives from community and other bodies and is chaired by the chief executive, which will be a role for the mayor going forward so the mayor will be stepping into that position and he or she will have a key role in driving regeneration under this new legislation.

New subsection (12) proposes that the mayor would have a role under section 213 of the Planning Act regarding land acquisition subject to the ratification of Limerick City and County Council. Under the Bill, it is envisaged that the mayor will have a role in the acquisition for the performance of the functions of the local authority. However, under the Planning Act, section 213 is an executive function and does not require a resolution of elected members. As mentioned above, this Bill does not remove, change or create new reserved functions. Therefore, this amendment cannot be accepted.

This flows into what Deputy Leddin put down in amendment No. 92. This is something I looked into in great depth when we were creating the legislation. Regarding DACs, the reporting mechanism is through the CEO. Under this legislation, the reporting mechanism will be to the mayor. This is a significant change. I have gone through this in great depth because I know it is very much a feature of the landscape in terms of the delivery of local government in Limerick. The DAC reports to the CEO and to the elected chamber. The DAC will now report to the mayor and the elected chamber. As former members of Limerick City and County Council, both Deputies will be aware of the significance of that so I can confirm that categorically.

Amendment No. 92 from Deputy Leddin proposes to delete the reference to section 229 of the principal Act from Part 1 of Schedule 1 of the Bill. Section 229 of the principal Act provides that a local authority may enter into a contract relating to its functions and this may be done by the chief executive or an employee nominated by him or her. The inclusion of section 229 in Schedule 1 provides for the director general to be able to enter into contracts relating to the functions that vest in them. I always go back to what was put to the people by plebiscite, which was that certain areas would remain within the remit of the CEO such as staffing, the accounting officer, dealing with individual planning applications and areas like housing. As elected representatives and democrats, members will appreciate that it goes back to what the people voted for. Whatever the people voted for is in the legislation. I would also point out that section 229 is also included in Schedule 3 of the Bill to provide that the mayor may also enter into a contract in the furtherance of executive powers that vest in him or her. The mayor can go forward with the powers vested in him or her and what stays with the CEO is vested in him or her. In essence, as the Bill current stands, both the mayor and director general will be able to enter contracts in the furtherance of their respective functions. I think this is the correct balance and I cannot accept the amendment.

In summary, we believe that what is put forward by Deputies Quinlivan and Leddin is there by way of national legislation or is included in the Bill. Deputy Quinlivan may say it is there in a more general way but it is in the Bill because I was very conscious that we wanted all these areas covered. The DAC itself now reports to the mayor - not the CEO.

An Cathaoirleach

Regarding the amendment to Schedule 1 that the Minister of State will bring forward on Report Stage, generally we send a note to members in advance of Report Stage so-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Absolutely.

An Cathaoirleach

That is noted.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

It is purely to give context. We are working through all areas of legislation that remain with the mayor. We obviously have to go across all Departments. We have almost concluded but we want to bring it as a full entity and we will bring it on Report Stage.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Deputy Quinlivan wish to press the amendment?

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I will press the amendment because on this occasion, I disagree fundamentally with the Minister of State. He spoke about what the people of Limerick voted for in 2019 but I do not think this is what has been delivered. The Minister of State at the time, Deputy Phelan, had a much more ambitious aim and this was what the people of Limerick were led to be believe would be introduced. I am not the only one who is saying this. The chamber of commerce and all the other stakeholders in Limerick will say it. This draft of the legislation has been very disappointing to most people in Limerick. We are talking about a fundamental change in local government starting off with a directly elected mayor in Limerick which, if done properly will, hopefully, will be replicated across the State and will be nothing but positive. Ireland has the most centralised system of government in the EU with very little connection with local people on the ground. Local authorities have very little authority at the moment. I know it was not the intention of this Bill to address that but it was the intention of the people who came out and voted. I do not have the remind the Minister of State that the referenda were defeated in Cork and Waterford because there was no clarity about what was going to be done. The referendum passed narrowly in Limerick. Before I came in here, I met a group of people from Adare outside. They are not in my constituency but they are from the county. They will not have faith in what is being delivered. This would be the feeling we are getting from a lot of stakeholders. Amendment No. 8 was one of the key amendments we put down inserting new subsections 6 to 12, inclusive. We believe they are fundamental when it comes to addressing the disappointment people will feel. For this reason, we will press this amendment and call a vote if necessary.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I have a concern about the amendment for two reasons.

While I am a strong advocate for the living wage, there is an argument about why we are not suggesting other areas would not be included. Once we get into a legislative scenario where we are prescribing one form of ambassadorial role, we are then allowing the possibility that they would be precluded for other areas. I would query that. Ultimately, we have to leave it up to the people in a democracy. The people of Limerick could decide that is not what the mayor should be involved in. I would worry about it as prescribing policy outcomes for a mayor who is not even elected yet and that it might also preclude others.

The second issue I have is that chairing the joint policing committee, JPC, might be the minimum level of ambition the new mayor has for his or her supervision of the Garda. The process is there to identify the transition of powers between central government, for want of a better phrase, and the mayor. Again, my fear would be that if we limit our ambition to just chairing the joint policing committee, that could get in the way of a new mayor actually prescribing a more ambitious relationship with the Garda, perhaps a direct reporting one or something on the basis of the London model. I would be worried about those two areas. It is a tricky scenario because we do want to strengthen it, but I have a view on chairing a JPC - I have done it myself and I am not sure how much power I had. I fear that it would limit that transition, and the same applies to the minimum wage. I have concerns over the amendment for that reason.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy. Did Deputy Cian O'Callaghan wish to come in on amendment No. 8?

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I want to speak broadly in support of this amendment. This is a very important part of the Bill in which the powers are not sufficiently strong. I take on board the comments from Deputy McAuliffe but I do not read in this anything that would prevent further or additional powers. In many ways, if the Government is not going to support a proposer's amendment on the basis that the proposal is not strong enough, then it would be great to hear from the Minister of State on what stronger measures he is going to bring to this Bill. There really is a deficit in it.

This goes to the nub of it. If we are going to have confidence in directly elected mayors, and I completely appreciate that a whole range of areas will not transition immediately to a directly elected mayor and that there will be a process, we run the risk that the office will be so weak that it will not have the confidence of people in other parts of the country who will say they do not need to get a directly elected mayor for their area if they see it as too minimal. I appreciate that it is not as easy as simply listing off a whole range of areas and transferring them straight away. That is why something like this, which does not do this and is only a step in that direction, is welcome. Certainly, if a vote is called, I will support it. I do not see anything in it in terms of living wage that would prevent a mayor doing more than that. That is a symbol of the kind of ambassadorial role the mayor could have. That living wage is very important to people's bread and butter. That is absolutely crucial to people facing cost-of-living challenges.

Prior to this meeting, I attended a briefing by the Irish Council for International Students, ICOS, whose representatives spoke about the difficulties many of the people they represent have in terms of renting somewhere affordable to live. Many of the international students here work in areas in which they do not get a living wage and where they are highly exploited. If we want to have successful, vibrant cities, and if we want Limerick to be a success, having a living wage is a really important part of that. I certainly support this amendment.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Leddin. I will then let the Minister of State respond before I put the question.

Deputy Brian Leddin

I have much sympathy for this amendment. I was very involved in the campaign in 2019 to support a "Yes" vote in the plebiscite. I was very proud to have been part of that campaign, as was Deputy Quinlivan. Limerick alone made that decision. Cork and Waterford were not brave enough and Limerick was. We said we were going to be the test bed for this really important reform of local government in this country. I would say it is the most important reform in 100 years.

I really have a lot of sympathy with the amendment because it is coming from a very good place. I would certainly think along the same lines that what we wanted and were proposing to do and what the people voted for in 2019 was an executive role - a very explicitly executive role - for this new office and position that was being created. It is what the people of Limerick expect. In many respects, the people of Limerick identified that there was a problem with how local government works in Limerick and those misgivings exist across the country as well.

I will not support the amendment, however. Similar to Deputy Cian O'Callaghan's point, we are in somewhat uncharted territory with this reform. We need to take a step forward. We might want to take a bigger step forward and that might be our instinct. We are going to a place this country has not gone before with this office. There are backstops. There are checks in the legislation. We will come to further amendments about the review, which was actually discussed already. That is a really important piece of this legislation, the evolution of which is guaranteed.

I just ask that the Minister of State, as someone who cares about this legislation very much but also as a Limerick man who would like to see the best possible outcome, would take this particular amendment and the spirit of it and seek to improve and refine the legislation as it goes through the remaining Stages in the Oireachtas. What is at stake here is a missed opportunity to have that reform of local government we would like to see. The caveat is that we are in uncharted territory. It is a role that will evolve over the years. We need to take a step forward, but let us take the best possible step forward that we can.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy Leddin. Does the Minister of State wish to respond?

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I do. Members will appreciate that I always try to avoid votes. I have been a committee member for many years. This Bill-----

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

On that point, Chair, we have not had a vote in three years.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Okay. I always look to see whether we can find a process to work through. The backbone of the legislation for me, and I have gone through it, is that there is no blueprint for a directly elected mayor working anywhere in the world. I have read much, but no doubt I have not read everything. I have seen many that have failed, however. Bristol and Liverpool are both reversing their decision for a directly elected mayor. The Bill itself is very strong in structure. There is an implementation group that I would say is unique in any mayoral legislation. It came out of Mr. Tim O'Connor's recommendation in terms of the implementation group, designed on what was brought forward in the Anglo-Irish Agreement, whereby the mayor would have a plenary session twice a year with Government or as many other meetings as either side decides. The original draft was based on the Minister deciding on those. I changed the legislation to make it ranking pari passu.

In terms of Deputy Quinlivan's amendments, we would be of the view that we are already dealing with the living wage at a national level. On the promotion and delivery on the advertising, I tried to include it in the Bill but maybe we could do a bit more on it. I take Deputy McAuliffe's point on the joint policing committees. It is not in there because it comes to a different piece of legislation. It was put forward to the people at the time, however. On the waste management side, certainly, we could make that about the enforcement. The mayor has to have in involvement in that area of improving the public realm. The mayor will have oversight with regard to the implementation of regeneration projects.

The mayor's role will be critical in this regard. The designated activity company covers a lot of the planning role. I would like us to look at some aspects and while I cannot say we will agree on all of them we might be able to move them to Report Stage. We can both look at them and at least try to find a compromise. It is very important for the people of Limerick.

I go back to the point made by Deputy Leddin. There is an element of the unknown in this. It will be the first in Ireland. We can look at this in a number of ways. A total of 52% voted for it and 48% voted against it. Many people are sceptical about the directly elected mayor. We can say that people did not understand it. I would prefer that we pass the legislation. The structures in it are strong. We might not agree that it covers everything but the corporate structures are reasonably strong. We will look through this, come back to it and try to avoid votes if at all possible. In this spirit of co-operation I ask that we move this to Report Stage. I am in the hands of Deputy Quinlivan.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I thank the Minister of State for the clarification. I am not a person who likes calling a vote as I chair a committee. I may be wrong but I believe that what the people voted for in 2019 was a mayor who would have different powers and additional powers. Unfortunately I do not see it in the Bill. This is why we-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

We contend that much of what is in Deputy Quinlivan's amendment is in the Bill. The question is whether it can be clarified a bit more as we progress to Report Stage. It is a decision for Deputy Quinlivan. I like the consensus approach, although we might not agree on everything. It is very important that we put the position of the role of mayor in legislation that we can all get behind. There may be disagreement on the details but I hope not on the point of principle. It is very much in the hands of Deputy Quinlivan.

Amendment put:

The Committee divided: Tá, 3; Níl, 5.

Tá

• Buckley, Pat.
• O'Callaghan, Cian.
• Quinlivan, Maurice.

Níl

• Duffy, Francis Noel.
• Higgins, Emer.
• Matthews, Steven.
• McAuliffe, Paul.
• O'Donnell, Kieran.

Amendment declared lost.

Section 10 agreed to.

Sections 11 and 12 agreed to.

SECTION 13

An Cathaoirleach

Amendments Nos. 9, 15, 17, 31, 32, 40, 74 and 94 are related and may be discussed together.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I move amendment No. 9:

In page 12, to delete lines 29 and 30 and substitute the following:

"(c) upon the Mayor becoming disqualified for membership of a local authority or for holding the office of Mayor of Limerick under section 13, 13A or 182 of the Principal Act,".

These amendments are linked and relate to the eligibility requirements to run in a mayoral election. The Bill provides that the provisions in the Local Government Act regarding eligibility for, and disqualification from, membership of the council apply equally to the office of mayor as the mayor will be a member of the council and the same standards should apply. This is provided for in Schedule 3.

Eligibility and disqualification for council membership are, in the main, set out in sections 12, 13 and 13A of the Local Government Act. Subject to disqualifications, section 12 provides that persons are eligible for election, co-option and membership of a local authority if they are a citizen of Ireland or ordinarily resident in the State and are 18 years of age. Sections 13 and 13A provide that persons are disqualified from being elected, co-opted or from being a member if they hold certain roles or positions or if other circumstances apply.

Under these collective provisions, the list of persons disqualified from council membership, including running for election, include a member of the Commission of the European Community, a representative in the European Parliament, a member of the Court of Auditors of the European Community, a member of Dáil Éireann or Seanad Éireann or a member of the Garda Síochána. These same provisions apply to the office of mayor.

However, with a view to ensuring a wider pool of candidates are eligible for the mayoral election, with a particular focus on those individuals already involved in political life, when approving the Bill for publication, the Government agreed that a member of Dáil Éireann, Seanad Éireann or the European Parliament may run as a candidate in mayoral elections provided that any such candidate would have to cease such membership if elected mayor. Collectively, these group of amendments achieve this objective. I will now speak to each individual amendment in turn.

Amendment No. 94 deletes paragraphs 3 and 4 of Schedule 3 to remove the application of these disqualifications as they operate to prevent a member of Dáil Éireann, Seanad Éireann or European Parliament from running for election as mayor. Subsequent amending provisions will clarify that other disqualifications in sections 13 and 13A still apply.

Amendment No. 15 inserts a new provision in section 20. This amendment applies the disqualifications in sections 13 and 13A of the principal Act with certain exceptions. It provides that members of Dáil Éireann, Seanad Éireann or the European Parliament are not disqualified from being nominated or elected mayor. However, such members may not hold the office of mayor while retaining that membership. Therefore, a member of the Oireachtas or the European Parliament may run for and be elected mayor but may not hold both the office of mayor and membership of the Oireachtas or the European Parliament at the same time. There can be no dual mandate.

Amendment No. 9 is a consequential amendment required, on foot of substantive amendments already mentioned, to section 13 that deals, in part, with when vacancies arise in the office of mayor. It proposes an amendment to section 13(1)(c) by the insertion of the words "or for holding the office of Mayor of Limerick" to provide to provide that under these new arrangements a vacancy in the office of mayor arises when the mayor becomes disqualified for membership of a local authority or for holding the office of mayor under section 13 and 13A of the principal Act. This clarifies that a sitting mayor who runs and is successful in securing a seat in a Dáil, Seanad or European Parliament election is disqualified from holding the office of mayor and a vacancy arises.

Amendment No. 17 is a consequential amendment required in section 20, on foot of substantive amendments mentioned to section 182 of the principal Act. Section 182 provides that a person convicted of an offence for failing to comply with the requirements of the Part 15 ethics framework is disqualified from being elected, co-opted or being a member of a local authority for five years.

For completeness and consistency with the amendments proposed to sections 13 and 13A of the principal Act, a further amendment is required to section 182(1)(a) to clarify that a person convicted of an offence under Part 15 is also disqualified from election to the office of, or being, the mayor of Limerick. The amendment to section 182(2) extends the provisions in this subsection to the mayor of Limerick. If a person contravenes or fails to comply with Part 15 requirements or acts while disqualified that will not invalidate any act or proceeding of the local authority or the mayor.

Amendment Nos. 31, 32, 40 and 74 are complementary to amendments Nos. 9, 15, 17 and 94 and are intended to provide for the cessation of membership from Dáil Éireann, Seanad Éireann and from the European Parliament where such a member contests a Limerick mayoral election and is successfully elected to the office of mayor of Limerick.

Amendments Nos. 40 and 74, respectively, amend section 42 of the Electoral Act 1992 and section 11 of the European Parliament Elections Act 1997 to provide that a person who is a serving member of the Dáil or the European Parliament shall cease to be such a member when deemed elected to the office of mayor of Limerick.

Amendments Nos. 31 and 32 similarly provide for the insertion of a new section 29B into the Seanad Electoral (University Members) Act 1937 and a new section 80B into the Seanad Electoral (Panel Members) Act 1947 respectively to provide that a person who is a serving Senator shall cease to be a Senator when deemed elected to the office of mayor of Limerick.

Amendment No. 31 relates to the insertion of a new section 36 into Part 5 of this Bill. This new section amends the Seanad Electoral (University Members) Act 1937 by inserting a new section 29B to provide that a person who is a serving Senator shall cease to be a Senator when deemed elected to the office of Mayor of Limerick.

Amendment No. 32 relates to the insertion of a new section 37 into Part 5 of this Bill. This new section amends the Seanad Electoral (Panel Members) Act 1947 by inserting a new section 80B to provide that a person who is a serving Senator shall cease to be a Senator when deemed elected to the office of Mayor of Limerick.

Amendment No. 40 relates to the insertion of a new section 36(h) into Part 5. This new subsection amends section 42(1) of the Electoral Act 1992 by inserting a new subsection (1)(d) to provide that a person who is a serving member of Dáil Éireann shall cease to be such a member when deemed elected to the office of mayor of Limerick.

Amendment No. 74 relates to the insertion of a new section into Part 5. This new section amends section 11 of the European Parliament Elections Act 1997 by inserting a new subsection (5)(d) to provide that a person who is a serving member of the European Parliament shall cease to be such a member when deemed elected to the office of Mayor of Limerick.

These new sections and the amendment to section 36(h) operate in tandem with the proposed amendments to sections 13 and 13A of the Local Government Act 2001 as provided for under sections 20(a) and 20(b) of this legislation. These amendments remove the disqualification from Members of the Oireachtas and members of the European Parliament from being elected or co-opted to, or from being a member of, a local authority.

In the event that a serving Member of Dáil Éireann, Seanad Éireann or the European Parliament stands as a candidate at a Limerick mayoral election and is successful at that election, that person shall cease to be a member of Dáil Éireann, Seanad Éireann or the European Parliament as the case may be when deemed elected by the mayoral returning officer.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 13, as amended, agreed to.

Section 14 agreed to.

SECTION 15

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Paul Murphy is not present to move the amendment so it falls.

Amendment No. 10 not moved.

An Cathaoirleach

Amendment No. 11 is ruled out of order.

Amendment No. 11 not moved.

Section 15 agreed to.

SECTION 16

An Cathaoirleach

Amendment No. 12 is ruled out of order.

Amendment No. 12 not moved.

Section 16 agreed to.

Section 17 agreed to.

SECTION 18

An Cathaoirleach

Amendments Nos. 13 and 95 are related and will be discussed together.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I move amendment No. 13:

In page 15, line 21, to delete “The director general” and substitute “The Mayor".

We feel this is a very important amendment. We believe that because this is a new position, we have to get it right. If we get it right, other people will replicate what we are trying to do in Limerick. It should be a beacon for people; it should not turn into something people do not want to replicate. That is why we called the vote earlier and why we will press this as well. We believe the mayor should be an independent position where the person is democratically elected by the people of Limerick, both city and county, and he or she must be free to hire whoever he or she deem suitable for his or her staff. It is important for them to have the authority to select this staff from the existing Limerick City and County Council. It should be the mayor's decision to do that. We do not mind them coming from an existing pool of members, but the mayor should be the person to do that, and not the new director general. We think that is a fundamental difference from what is in the Bill. This is the concern we have. This is no disrespect to the president or CEO, who might be listening in. I know him quite well and he is a very capable person but that might not be the case for other councils that will replicate what we are trying to do.

I believe, therefore, that the failure to grant the mayor this power is a demonstration of how much power will remain in the hands of unelected officials. That is the huge concern we have. As I said, this does not necessarily specifically relate to Limerick, but going forward. The mayor should have the ability. He or she will get five staff members, four of whom will come from existing council staff. The new director general will have the authority to appoint those people, but that should be the prerogative and the responsibility of the newly elected mayor, whoever he or she may be.

Deputy Brian Leddin

I agree with Deputy Quinlivan’s comments. This is about the optimal performance of the functions of the mayor and giving the mayor the power to assemble his or her team. Again, I acknowledge that we are in somewhat uncharted territory. We must be true to the intent of the people of Limerick when they voted, albeit by a small margin, for Limerick to have a directly elected mayor. We, therefore, should seek insofar as is possible to give that mayor the ability to fulfil his or her mandate and very much linked to that is his or her ability to assemble a team and to have as much autonomy as possible in assembling that team and putting the right people in place. I am in agreement, therefore, with Deputy Quinlivan’s comments. It is something that can be examined. It is my hope hat this does not go to a vote, but I ask the Minister of State to examine this and seek to give the successful mayor greater autonomy in choosing his or her team.

I want to acknowledge, as Deputy Quinlivan did, that this is no reflection on the current chief executive, who will be the director general and for whom we all have the utmost regard. He is doing an excellent job in Limerick and has put a very good team around him in the form of the directors of service and the executive. However, we have to think about other local authorities and future situations in Limerick as well. It makes sense for the balance of power in assembling that team to lie with the mayor, rather than with the director general.

On amendment No. 95, which is grouped with amendment No. 13, I will make a similar point. This is more about the team around the director general. We have a brilliant team in Limerick. Limerick has taken strides forward because of the team that is in place there. We have excellent directors of services. However, in the context of a new mayor being elected, the mayor should have a greater consultative role in the selection of that team, working with the director general of the day in selecting that team. The successful candidate for mayor will have his or her own ideas about which personnel would fit most ably into which directorate. It is a meaningful amendment that would improve the functioning of the new mayoral system as well as the relationship between the mayor and the director general. Yet, fundamentally, this is a matter of the elected person, who will be the mayor, having that strong role in the selection of the team that will, in turn, carry out the functions of the local authority .

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

While in one sense, amendment No. 13 covers a relatively small issue, namely, the appointment of four staff members, it is also critical to the Bill. If the amendment is not agreed to, or if the Minister of State does not address it on Report Stage, we will pass a Bill that will explicitly make the mayor subordinate to the director general in the key function of assembling the staff that will work directly with him or her. That really is not tolerable. That is not a comment on the chief executive in Limerick, of whom I have no knowledge. I am thinking of the local authorities that I deal with. I have, for example, many interactions with the chief executive of Fingal County Council. In a similar situation to this, I would have no hesitation in saying that I know the chief executive would not abuse something like this; far from it; she would try to resource a directly elected mayor well. Yet, we could not say with confidence that in all situations regarding future personnel, etc., that would not happen. Even if they do not, for them to have that power imbalance to write legislation where that power imbalance is gifted to a director general so that the mayor is somewhat in debt to the director general for assigning the best people to those roles. That is a terrible way to start that relationship between the directly elected mayor and the director general. Even in the best of circumstances, it is a power imbalance that we should not accept or tolerate. It is clear-cut and it does need to change.

If the Minister of State is not able to accept the amendment now, I would ask that it be changed on Report Stage.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The amendments relate to the assignment of staff to the office of mayor and delegation of functions. Amendment No. 13 proposes that the reference to the director general in section 18 be replaced by reference to the mayor, enabling the mayor to assign staff from the council to the mayoral office.

Amendment No. 95 proposes the modification of section 154 of the 2001 Act, which deals with the delegation of functions within the local authority. The effect of this would place a requirement on the director general that when delegating, he or she will consult the mayor to ensure each delegated function is appropriately staffed to advance the priorities and objectives of the mayoral programme.

A fundamental tenet of the legislation, as set out in the Government’s policy proposals and the plebiscite that was put to the people and as recommended by the independent advisory group, is that the director general will have responsibility for the day-to-day operation of the local authority and specifically for staffing matters, including the assignment of staff on the council. I am conscious of that in the context of the existing staff on the council, who need certainty as well.

The mayor may select and appoint a special adviser with relevant expertise and experience in line with the provisions of section 19. In practice, not unlike a Minister's relationship with his or her Secretary General, the director general will consult the mayor in respect of the assignment of support staff to the office of mayor and ensure the staff complements are in place to advance the key priorities and objectives. These are, however, the director general's functions.

In a practical context, since I became Minister of State at the Department, there have been changes of staff and I have always been involved in their interviews. There has to be that practical aspect. The mayor will have absolute autonomy in appointing his or her special adviser, and that has been agreed in respect of funding and so forth with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform in terms of the level that will be paid. As for the other four staff, it is important there be a synergy between the mayor, the appointed staff and the existing staff in terms of expertise. In a practical way, it was indicated in all cases that the responsibility for the assignment of staff would remain with the director general, for a number of reasons. Any staff members in the mayor’s office who are there in the normal way will involve the mayor working with the director general for their appointment. In that context, we cannot accept the amendments.

I want to hear Deputies' views on that. On a practical level, the mayor will always be involved in the appointment of the four staff within the council but, ultimately, the director general will continue to have that executive function over staff. I am conscious of that in the context of the existing staff on the council. As Deputy Leddin noted, they are excellent staff and there is no way a mayor could function without bringing in that pool of talent. On that basis, we will not accept the amendments, but I want to hear Deputies' feedback on what I am proposing.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

To clarify, we will accept the position whereby the new mayor, whoever he or she may be, will accept the four people from the existing staff members, but we should also give an opportunity for the existing staff members to get a promotion. It should not necessarily have to be the director of services or have the experience, knowledge or whatever-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Is the Deputy referring to staff within the office of mayor?

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

Yes. The office of mayor - correct me if I am wrong - is going to have five staff-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

One of them is the special adviser, appointed independently, and that is a defined external post on which it will be up to the mayor to decide.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

That is legislated for and, over many pages in the Bill, that job and role is defined, with details on who the person can be, what their experience needs to be or whatever-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Yes, but they will ultimately be appointed by the mayor.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

Yes. The other four people will be appointed from existing staff members.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Correct.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

The problem we have is with the director general doing that although, as I said, I have the utmost respect for the present CEO of Limerick City and County Council, who will automatically become the director general. Even so, other councils would like to replicate what we are doing. I tabled 14 amendments to the Bill and the two most important ones are the one we called a vote on earlier and this one, which is the most crucial part. The mayor will have to be able to assemble whatever he or she believes to be the best team of existing staff members and that has to-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

In the normal course, however, I will outline what will happen here, drawing from my practical experience. A post will be advertised within the Department and people will apply for it. An interview will take place where the head of human resources or whoever will interview that person along with the Minister. In this case, I would expect the mayor to be involved in all the interviews. Anybody who can be appointed, in practice, will have to be someone with whom the mayor is comfortable. In practice, therefore-----

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

The legislation does not say that, however, and that is the problem and the basis of our amendment. In fact, the director general will appoint people.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I take that point and I think we are all going to the same space. Perhaps we can look at it again on Report Stage, and it might involve using a phrase such as "in consultation with the mayor" or something else to ensure it is the case. Ultimately, I have to be honest here. The responsibility for staff will rest with the director general and that is for a number of reasons. They relate to the existing staff-----

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

With the exception of the mayor's office, we do not have a problem with that. That is at it should be and there are other functions that should not be with the mayor.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Those staff will work in the mayor's office but, ultimately, the executive function for staff will remain with the director general.

Can we take it that we will look at it again later? I take the Deputy's point. A lot of issues are involved here. Ultimately, in practice, there will be no way someone can be appointed to the mayor's office without the mayor being involved in the process.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

That is not the case under the legislation. The legislation clearly provides that the director general will appoint them.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

In practice, however-----

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

That is not what the legislation states.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Will the Deputy allow us to come back to it? If we give a commitment to looking at it again and coming forward with something on Report Stage, can we work with that?

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

Okay. What will the Minister of State be looking at?

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The staff still will be under the director general because that will be his or her executive role. However, any staff who are appointed to the mayor's office will have to have the mayor involved in that process.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

Okay. What we will have to see is a stronger role for the mayor in the legislation.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The Deputy will still have the prerogative to bring forward amendments on Repot Stage. I am saying we are giving a commitment here - obviously, I would prefer if we did not have votes - that we will look at it and come back but it will remain the Deputy's prerogative to come forward with amendments on Report Stage. We cannot change the director general's role but, in the involvement of the mayor in the appointment of staff to the mayor's office, it is something on which we might be able to give more assurance.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

In fairness, we cannot change the director general’s role. That is not how it has been legislated for. On that basis, I will call a vote.

An Cathaoirleach

I am first going to bring in Deputy Leddin because his name is also on this amendment, and Deputy O'Callaghan has also indicated.

Deputy Brian Leddin

I think we are trying to get to the same point here and I agree with the Minister of State. I would accept his-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The most important thing here is that, from the very start and at every level - I am conscious of the staff on the council in this regard – it has always been the case that the staffing function would remain under the jurisdiction of the director general. We cannot move from that point.

Deputy Brian Leddin

I thank the Minister of State. I think we are trying to get to the same point here. There is a fundamental question about the balance between the mayor and the director general in assembling a team. We have to be true to the vote in 2019, which was to give the mayor executive authority, insofar as possible, who would then be accountable to the people at election time.

There is a potential refinement of the provision that I think would satisfy everyone. On that basis, I am willing to withdraw the amendment with leave to debate it again on Report Stage.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Let us be honest. We are talking specifically about the staff in the mayor's office. They would still have to be appointed by the director general technically, but, as happens with Ministers of State, the mayor would be involved in the interview process. That is the norm. That is the practical aspect. It was always put forward from the start that staffing would remain an executive function of the director general, apart from the special adviser who will be employed by the council but appointed by the mayor.

Deputy Brian Leddin

The points have been clearly made by me and by colleagues. I would appreciate if the Minister of State would look at it with a view to getting to a form of words in the legislation that acknowledges the director general is certainly the person who appoints, but that the mayor should have a strong consultative role.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Only with respect to staff in the mayor's office.

Deputy Brian Leddin

Yes, as regards staff in the mayor's office.

I tabled amendment No. 95 which is related, but we might talk about it separately.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

We can discuss it separately. I will respond to it if the Deputy wishes.

Deputy Brian Leddin

I will make a similar point about amendment No. 95. Acknowledging the HR function would rest with the director general, if we are trying to set this office up well the mayor should have a strong role, even if it is a consultative role - I do not suggest it should be a veto, but a prescribed consultative role - in the selection of the personnel for the team who will lead the various directorates in the local authority.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Outside the mayor’s office, it has always been the case that the staff fall under the director general. We cannot change that. Staff in the mayor's office are appointed by the director general but on a practical level, the mayor will always be involved in working with human resources in the council on their appointment. We will look at that simple aspect before Report Stage.

Outside the mayor's office, the answer is that staff have to remain, as has always been the case, under the sole remit of the director general.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

We should be conscious that we are discussing the legislation. What the intentions are, what might happen otherwise or what Ministers or others might consider to be good practice are relevant but we are concerned with the wording of the legislation in front of us. The normal practice the Minister of State mentioned is not in any way expressed in the legislation. The legislation is short, distinct and clear and does not allow for any role for the mayor in the appointing of the four staff in the mayor's office. That is what we are talking about. As it is currently written, it is off the charts as regards what power and executive function the public would want a directly elected mayor to have. The idea that mayors would be able to appoint one out of five staff members in their office and, under the legislation, not have any role whatsoever in the appointment of the other four staff is off the charts.

We also need to think about the culture and the power local government has had traditionally in Ireland as opposed to in other countries. A comparison was made to the appointment of the staff in a Minister of State's office and the relationship of a Minister of State has with the Secretary General. That is quite different because we have highly centralised government where, in a general sense, the power of national government has been quite strong. I am sure we are all aware that the level of power of local government is one of the lowest in all of Europe and the OECD. There is an entire culture to consider and within that, the powers elected councillors have had. The elected representative part and the local democratic part of local government has been weak. That is the culture we are starting from so if the legislation does not reverse or change it, we will potentially have a weak directly elected mayor and people will be dissatisfied with that. After a number of years, they may ask what the point is if it does not make a difference. We need to be careful about explicitly writing into the legislation the function a directly elected mayor will have in appointing the direct staff in the mayor's office. If the power is not explicitly written into the legislation, as this amendment seeks to do, I fail to see how the mayor's role will develop into the kind of role everyone here is in favour of.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

I apologise for being late. We had 37 ladies visiting from the Adare Women's 2020 Club in Limerick.

An Cathaoirleach

Can the Deputy name them all?

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

Would the Cathaoirleach like me to name them all?

An Cathaoirleach

No.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

Pat Smith, Margaret Hickey-----

An Cathaoirleach

I retract my last comment.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

You should never challenge a Limerick man because he is always up to the challenge and will always win.

Getting back to the point at hand, when Deputies are elected to this House and are appointed as Ministers for a Department, they can have their personal assistants, PAs, with them, but they do not have any choice about who is the head of the Department they are over. This is the same as the mayor. We have heard many people who became Ministers say that they are happy with the Department but they would like to change one thing. The heads of the Department will say they are the heads of the Departments, Ministers are only elected for a few years and will demand the Ministers do things their way. When the mayor comes to Limerick, I will not be happy unless the mayor does things his or her way.

The mayor can appoint a special adviser. That is fine. I agree with that. If I wanted to run for mayor tomorrow morning, I would build up an office of brilliant, capable staff in County Limerick. If I were to be elected mayor, I would like to bring them with me. I am being told that I would be on the interview panel for the four people who will be around me if I am elected mayor, but I would not have the overall choice. This is what I am coming to. Mistakes have been made by Governments for years with Departments. We are talking about Limerick having the first directly elected mayor. Is it not time we had change and try something new? Fresh eyes often bring better practices into something.

I would be happy enough with a 50:50 mix, but I am not happy with 100%. Mayors should be in charge of appointing at least two members of their team and should be able to bring in some other staff outside that if they so wish. They will be the mayor of Limerick City and County Council so they should have the choice. Choices should be not be made for them. They are either there to lead or they are not. The first thing when it comes to the role of the mayor is that they are there to lead. Mayors are also there to bring in changes and new practices. If people are not brought in from the outside - new staff - there will not be any changes or new practices, which would mean things can get better.

If you are within a system, they say you have to stay within the system. I agree with my colleagues here and I am not happy with the wording of the legislation. We are here to discuss legislation. We are not here to come back and amend it. The legislation should state that the mayor, whoever they are, should have a choice to have at least 50% of the surrounding team on the first floor.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I was disappointed with what the Minister of State said because I did not reference the other employees or staff of the council.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I was referencing the second amendment, not the Deputy’s amendment.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

In my amendment it was clearly stated that the new-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

That was referenced.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

The new mayor, whoever he or she will be, will have five staff. One of them, as we have all agreed, will be the special adviser and the legislation clearly defines that and does so quite well. My concern is that the other four people should be hired by the mayor from existing council staff members. I disagree with what Deputy O'Donoghue said but we will be open to supporting that if he puts down an amendment on Report Stage. We have 14 amendments and the two most important ones we have put down are amendments Nos. 8 and 13. The reason for that is we are looking at developing a new system and pillar of local government, which has not been done for over 100 years. The concern I have, which I have mentioned a number of times, is that if we do not get this right, nobody will replicate this. People will say that what was done in Limerick is a mess. We are potentially setting up the mayor to fail - not just in Limerick but anywhere that follows us - if they are not allowed to at least employ the people in their office. That is why amendment No. 13 is important and that is why we will push it.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I take the point the Deputy raises about the mayor's office and it is something I have given an undertaking to look at before Report Stage. Deputy Quinlivan can push the amendment all right but in the spirit of co-operation, I am asking that he give me some latitude to come forward on Report Stage in respect of that consultation with the mayor on the appointment of staff in the mayoral office.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan said quite well that we are looking at what is in the legislation and at what it clearly states. That is why we will push this amendment.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Legislation is open to change and we are here to discuss it.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

That is what we are trying to do. We are trying to flag this. It is not just an amendment we threw in for no reason; this is the one we have-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I am not in any way questioning that.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I accept that but I am saying-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Equally the Deputy must take my bona fides on it. I am trying to work on this. The Deputy is correct that we have to get this right. There will be a review mechanism and I have seen that many of the moves to a directly elected mayor have failed because they have gone too quickly. I want to look at section 18 in the context of the mayor being consulted on the appointment of the four staff from within the local authority to the mayoral office. Deputy Cian O'Callaghan made a valid point on this. I want to go look at this with the officials from the Department.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

The commitment the Minister of State is giving is that he will look at what the mayor will be consulted on. Our amendment states that the mayor should appoint the people.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Remember that it has always been the case that the director general was over staff and they are staff within the council so I have to be conscious of them as well.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I am 100%-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

All I am saying is that the point-----

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I have no hesitation in saying that if the directly elected mayor wanted to hire four people from the existing council staff they would find four excellent people there.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The substantive issue is that on both sides we want to get to a point where the mayor would be involved and that staff would be appointed who the mayor would be comfortable with.

An Cathaoirleach

We have had a good discussion on it. Does Deputy Quinlivan wish to press the amendment?

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

Yes.

Amendment put:

The Committee divided: Tá, 4; Níl, 6.

Tá

• Buckley, Pat.
• O'Callaghan, Cian.
• O'Donoghue, Richard.
• Quinlivan, Maurice.

Níl

• Duffy, Francis Noel.
• Flaherty, Joe.
• Higgins, Emer.
• Matthews, Steven.
• McAuliffe, Paul.
• O'Donnell, Kieran.

Amendment declared lost.

Section 18 agreed to.

SECTION 19

An Cathaoirleach

Amendments Nos. 14 and 96 to 100, inclusive, are related and may be discussed together.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I move amendment No. 14:

In page 16, to delete lines 10 to 13.

These amendments are linked and relate to the ethics framework which should apply to the special adviser to the mayor. As it stands, the Bill provides for a different ethics framework for the mayor than for the special adviser. The mayor is subject to the ethics framework in Part 15 of the Local Government Act 2001, while the special adviser is subject to the ethics framework under the Ethics in Public Office Act 1995. However, it is considered more appropriate and consistent that the same ethics framework contained in Part 15 of the 2001 Act apply to both. This was a recommendation of the independent advisory group report. The Standards in Public Office Commission, SIPO, has been consulted on the provisions in the Bill relating to the ethics framework and also recommended this approach. Therefore, amendment No. 14 proposes to delete the provision in section 19(8) of the Bill that provides for the mayor’s special adviser to be subject to the 1995 Act. The Bill provides that the mayor’s special adviser is deemed to be an employee of the council. Therefore, it is proposed to ensure that the special adviser is subject to Part 15 of the 2001 Act by way of a ministerial regulation under section 167(1)(b) of the 2001 Act. Section 167(1)(b) provides that:

“This Part applies to... an employee of a local authority who is of a class, description or grade prescribed by regulations made by the Minister for the purposes of this Part,”.

The other amendments in this group involve amendments to Schedule 3 of the Bill and relate to modifications to relevant provisions of Part 15 of the 2001 Act. Amendment No. 96 is a modification to section 166 of the 2001 Act. Section 166 contains definitions of terms used in this Part 15. This amendment inserts a definition for "special adviser" as being the special adviser appointed under section 19 of the Bill into section 166.

Amendment No. 97 is a modification to section 174(7) of the 2001 Act. Section 174 sets out the certain duties of the ethics registrar which include issuing a notice at the appropriate time each year to each member and employee, informing them of the requirement to complete the annual declaration under section 171. Subsection (7) deals with the situation where the ethics registrar becomes aware of a possible contravention of Part 15 of the Act; and imposes a duty to inform the current cathaoirleach and the chief executive, or both, depending on the person involved in the possible contravention. Modifications have already been made to section 174 in how this section will apply in Limerick having regard to the new roles of príomh-chomhairleoir or speaker of the house, mayor of Limerick and director general. This amendment proposes a further modification to subsection (7) to clarify that, in the case of the special adviser being involved in a possible contravention, the registrar would inform both the mayor and the director general.

Amendment No. 98 is a modification to section 179(2) and 179(3) of the 2001 Act. Section 179 sets out the disclosure requirements and the action to be taken by an employee of a local authority or a consultant employed by a local authority where a matter arises with which the local authority is dealing and in which they have a pecuniary or other beneficial interest. Such persons must disclose the interest to the chief executive - the director general in respect of Limerick - are prohibited from seeking to influence the local authority in its consideration of the matter and must take no part in such consideration. These ad hoc disclosures are recorded in the register of interests. This amendment proposes a modification to subsection (2) to clarify the disclosure requirements as they relate to the special adviser. The special adviser must disclose in writing, to both the mayor and the director general, the nature of the pecuniary or beneficial interest. The special adviser must follow any direction of the mayor, as the special adviser is accountable directly to the mayor in the performance of their functions. The modification to subsection (3) clarifies that the director general shall provide a copy of the disclosure to the ethics registrar for recording on the register of interests.

Amendments Nos. 99 and 100 relate to modifications to subsections (3) and (4) of section 180 of the 2001 Act. Section 180 empowers SIPO to use its powers under section 23 of the Ethics in Public Office Act 1995 to investigate a member or employee of a local authority or other person referred to in sections 167(1) or 167(2) of the 2001 Act and prepare a report. Subsection (3) deals with the situation where the commission has prepared a report and is furnishing it to a local authority, and sets out who it should be furnished to, either the cathaoirleach or the chief executive, depending on to whom the report relates. Modifications have already been made to section 180 in how this will apply in Limerick having regard to the new roles of príomh-chomhairleoir, the mayor of Limerick and the director general.

Amendment No. 99 proposes a further modification to subsection (3) to clarify that where a report relates to the special adviser, the report is furnished to the mayor and the director general. Amendment No. 100 proposes a further modification to subsection (4) to clarify that the mayor will decide on the appropriate action to be taken in all the circumstances and will notify the council accordingly. I trust members will understand the rationale behind these amendments and support them.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 19, as amended, agreed to.

SECTION 20

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I move amendment No. 15:

In page 16, between lines 17 and 18, to insert the following:

“(a) in section 13, by the insertion, after subsection (1), of the following subsections:

“(1A) Subject to subsection (2), a person to whom subsection (1) applies, other than a person referred to in paragraph (b) or (e) of that subsection, is disqualified from being elected to the office of Mayor of Limerick.

(1B) Subject to subsection (2), a person to whom subsection (1) applies is disqualified from holding the office of Mayor of Limerick.”,

(b) in section 13A, by the insertion, after subsection (1), of the following subsection:

“(1A) A person to whom subsection (1) applies is not disqualified from being elected to the office of Mayor of Limerick, but is disqualified from holding that office.”,”.

Amendment agreed to.

An Cathaoirleach

Amendments Nos. 16, 43 and 53 are related and will be discussed together.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I move amendment No. 16:

In page 16, between lines 32 and 33, to insert the following:

“(c) in section 128A, by the substitution, in the definition of “chief officer”, of “section 128D(1)(b)” for “section 128E(1)”,”.

These are all minor or typographical amendments. Amendment No. 16 is a minor technical amendment required to correct the referencing error in the Local Government Act 2001. Section 128 of the 2001 Act provides that the chief officer of a local community development committee is a person designated to that role by the chief executive of the local authority concerned under section 128E(1). The reference to section 128E is an error in the Act as that section is a regulation-making power and is not the correct reference. The correct reference is to the power to designate a chief officer is in section 128D(1)(b). This amendment makes the necessary correction.

Amendment No. 43 inserts the word “of” into the amendment to the Electoral Act 1992 proposed under section 36(j)(III) of the Bill.

Similarly, amendment No. 53 corrects a typographical error in the amendment proposed to the Electoral Act under section 37(p)(i)(II) of the Bill.

Amendment agreed to.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I move amendment No. 17:

In page 17, to delete line 5 and substitute the following:

“(e) in section 182—

(i) in subsection (1)(a), by the insertion of “and from being elected to or holding the office of Mayor of Limerick” after “local authority”, and

(ii) in subsection (2)—

(I) by the insertion of “or acts as Mayor of Limerick while disqualified from holding that office by virtue of this section,” after “this section,”,

and

(II) by the insertion of “or of the Mayor of Limerick, as the case may be” after “concerned”,

and”.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 20, as amended, agreed to.

Section 21 agreed to.

SECTION 22

An Cathaoirleach

Amendments Nos. 18 and 19 are related and will be discussed together.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I move amendment No. 18:

In page 17, to delete line 21 and substitute the following:

“(a) a successor is selected at a special meeting convened no later than three months after the vesting day, or”.

We are suggesting a successor be elected three months after the vesting day. While the selection of a príomh chomhairleoir, as the Bill is initiated, is scheduled to occur at the annual general meeting, AGM, of the council and this is likely to occur just after the election of a new council, it is important that we do not just rely on the timing. The mayor must have the power and independence. As such, it is important that the príomh chomhairleoir position is decided as soon as possible after the election of a new mayor.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Amendments Nos. 18 and 19 are closely linked and propose changes to sections 22 and 24. Respectively, these sections deal with the election of members of Limerick City and County Council to hold two offices that will be created following the Bill's enactment – the príomh chomhairleoir and leas-phríomh chomhairleoir, the speaker and the deputy speaker of the house. These roles will replace the current ceann comhairle and leas-cheann comhairle.

The amendments propose that the príomh chomhairleoir and leas-phríomh chomhairleoir to be selected at a special meeting of Limerick City and County Council that must be held within three months of the mayor's vesting day. It may be the Deputy is concerned these important positions be filled as quickly as possible but the current provisions in the Bill ensure that this will happen well ahead of the three-month period proposed. We looked at it in-depth.

The Bill does so by requiring that the new príomh chomhairleoir and new leas-phríomh chomhairleoir be elected at the council's next annual meeting. Paragraph 3(1) of Schedule 10 of the principal Act provides that in an election year, a local authority's annual meeting shall be held on the 14th day after the polling day or, where a poll is for any reason countermanded, interrupted or adjourned, on the 14th day after the poll is completed or a fresh poll is held.

In addition, the Bill currently provides for the ceann comhairle and leas-cheann comhairle who are in office at the time of the mayor's election to seamlessly take up the roles of príomh chomhairleoir and leas-phríomh chomhairleoir for this 14-day period, doing away with any risk of a transitional vacancy when the first election takes place regarding Limerick City and County Council's new structures.

Under the proposed amendments, a period of up to three months could pass before the new príomh chomhairleoir and leas-phríomh chomhairleoir take up their roles, representing a much later period than that proposed by the Bill. I am not sure that I understand the Deputy's intent. We believe it is already in legislation. It will have to happen within 14 days of polling day. On that basis, we believe it is in the legislation, in fact, much earlier than three months. On that basis, we cannot accept the amendments.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

On the basis of the Minister of State’s response, we are happy to withdraw these two amendments. I flag that we may introduce them again later on.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 22 agreed to.

SECTION 23

Question proposed: "That section 23 stand part of the Bill."

Deputy Michael McNamara

Both sections 10 and 23 refer to a number of other legislative enactments set out in Part 1 of Schedule 1. I assume they will be dealt with at the end after section 60, and each of those enactments will be gone through. Is that correct?

An Cathaoirleach

I do not know. I will put the question to the Minister of State, if he wishes.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Could the Deputy repeat that?

Deputy Michael McNamara

Sections 10 and 23 both refer to Parts 1 and 2 of Schedule 1 is in sections 10 and 26. I have the same question.

An Cathaoirleach

We will have a question that the Schedule be a Schedule to the Bill on those Schedules.

Deputy Michael McNamara

That is the point at which we will go through the contents of those Schedules.

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy can raise-----

Deputy Michael McNamara

If I choose.

An Cathaoirleach

Exactly.

Deputy Michael McNamara

That is the appropriate time to go through them.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, I think so.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Prior to Deputy McNamara coming in, we are in the process of finalising Schedule 1. Under the legislation, we have to stay within the remit of the director general. We will bring that forward in a complete fashion on Report Stage.

Deputy Michael McNamara

To be clear, on Committee Stage, we are discussing setting up an office of a mayor without having any finalisation of what the powers-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Schedule 1 is there.

Deputy Michael McNamara

It is there but it is subject to change.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

We are nearly finished. We have to go through all the various Departments.

Deputy Michael McNamara

It is almost subject to change but not subject to change.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

No. It is subject to change but it is subject to additions rather than change.

Deputy Michael McNamara

In any event, we will discuss the Schedule, which is arguably the most important thing and is almost subject to change, at a later time in this meeting.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

No. We will go through what is in Schedule 1 in great depth when we come to it. However, regarding the amendment itself, we will table that on Report Stage.

Deputy Michael McNamara

So there is hope that the powers will not be quite as emasculated as they are set out in Schedule 1.

An Cathaoirleach

We can discuss that when we get to Schedule 1 but the Minister of State has given an agreement to provide the committee with the amendment he proposes ahead of Report Stage.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 24

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I move amendment No. 19:

In page 18, to delete line 9 and substitute the following:

“(a) a successor is selected at a special meeting convened no later than three months after the vesting day, or”.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 24 agreed to.

Sections 25 and 26 agreed to.

SECTION 27

Question proposed: "That section 27 stand part of the Bill."

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

This is about delegation of functions of the directly elected mayor to the director general. This part of the Bill is highly problematic. We have discussed why we do not have the full detail on it, which is because Schedule 1 is still being worked on. We are in situation where the directly- elected mayor for Limerick is already going to have very limited powers. This section allows him or her to delegate a number of those powers back to the director general. I cannot understand why this would be put in legislation. I cannot think of a comparison on this in terms of other elected offices. Deputies and councillors do not have this provision where they get elected into office and they can just delegate a whole load of powers back to the director-----

Deputy Michael McNamara

Ministers can.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Yes, Ministers can. I did not list Ministers.

Deputy Michael McNamara

Sorry.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I thank the Deputy for his contribution.

Deputy Michael McNamara

The Deputy is very welcome. Anytime.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Given how limited the roles are in this office, my fear is that someone will be elected to the office and he or she will not take it as seriously as he or she should. He or she could end up delegating a whole load of the powers back to the director general. We already have a total power imbalance in local democracy between elected representatives and what are currently chief executives. If this goes ahead, someone who gets elected and is not terribly serious about the role can delegate these all back. Then, the electorate will rightly conclude after a while, “Why do we have a directly elected mayor if they will only be delegating these functions back to the director general and not taking responsibility for them themselves?”

We then could have a situation where, in a number of years, there could be kind of a lame duck, directly elected mayor.

Not only is it not replicated in other parts of the country, as the Minister of State said, there could be a situation in which the office is not continued and people will ask what is the point. Those are my concerns regarding the section.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The section reflects the general scheme as to the delegation of the mayoral executive functions by the mayor to the director general. The Deputy is correct in his interpretation of how it is set up. The section sets out a clear framework for delegating responsibilities, providing functions are delegated through instruments in writing and any functions assigned may be subject to any conditions attached by the mayor. The mayor will still retain oversight and control over any functions that vest in him or her that are delegated and may still perform or invoke these at any stage. The director general is accountable to the mayor in the performance of these functions. Ultimately, he or she has to report back to the mayor. This reflects the position currently with the chief executive who can delegate many functions to the directors of service and other staff in the council but retains ultimate responsibility for those functions. The Deputy is correct; Ministers can delegate as well. This section is essential for the efficient running of business in Limerick City and County Council. Delegating responsibility for a vast array of executive functions enables the director general to, in turn, assign responsibility to the appropriate grade or grades of officers. The provisions of this section enable the mayor to retain overall responsibility and control of mayoral executive functions while ensuring he or she can focus on functions at a strategic and policy level, including strategic development of the Limerick city and county development plan. To not have such a provision would be highly problematic to the smooth running of the local authority.

To take up the Deputy's initial point concerning the transfer of executive functions, the mayor now brings the budget and development plans to the council, not the CEO. There is quite a transfer, certainly around policy, from the CEO to the mayor. We look at it on the basis that there must be a practical aspect to anything we set up. It is subject to review within a three-year period. I accept that nothing is perfect. I said earlier that there is no blueprint for a directly elected mayor anywhere. It is evolving. That is why it is in the general scheme and in the draft Bill as presented to members.

Deputy Michael McNamara

The Minister of State said the mayor will bring the development plan and budget.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Those are just two, yes.

Deputy Michael McNamara

This section is basically to cover an eventuality in which there is a mayor who says, "To hell with the development plan and budget, I am going to Honolulu." If he or she is not bothered with stuff like the powers he or she has, he or she can just give them back to the unelected CEO. Is that what it is for or is it if the mayor is somehow incapacitated? Is it if they just decide to go on holidays and to hell with this ceremonial office with no powers, he or she might as well be in Honolulu so he or she off? Is that what is covered by this?

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

On a serious note.

Deputy Michael McNamara

On a serious note. If the Minister of State sets up an office with no powers, it is quite possible somebody might take-----.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The Deputy takes a very cynical view.

Deputy Michael McNamara

I could. It might be well advised, given the powers set out in this Bill.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Humbly, I disagree. The most important thing is that this works. It will evolve. On the normal workings of the directly elected mayor, there may be some aspects of the work they do that are of a heavy lifting nature. It may not be a policy aspect. They may wish to devolve and delegate it for the smooth running of their office. They may not want to get bogged down in an enormous amount of detail. It is about management. The mayor's role is to effectively drive Limerick forward in a constructive way around policy. That person will get a mandate from the people of Limerick. He or she must be given some level of flexibility in how he or she runs the powers vested in him or her. Ultimately, he or she makes the decisions and still has oversight. The director general will still report to the mayor. There has to be a practical import in anything. For this to work, there has to be co-operation and a good working relationship between the mayor and the director general and the mayor and the chamber, working collectively for Limerick. Nothing is an exact science. Equally, in what we provide in the legislation, there is an aspect of it being new and ground-breaking. It is not perfect but we are putting in a practical measure. Ultimately, it is entirely under the control of the mayor, who will get a democratic mandate from the people of Limerick.

Question put and declared carried.

Section 28 agreed to.

SECTION 29

An Cathaoirleach: Amendment Nos. 20 and 27 to 29, inclusive, are related and may be discussed together.

Deputy Brian Leddin

I move amendment No. 20:

In page 20, between lines 3 and 4, to insert the following:

“ “Limerick-Shannon Metropolitan Area Transport Strategy” means the strategy which sets out the framework for the delivery of the transport system of the Limerick-Shannon Metropolitan Area;”.

Amendment No. 20 simply proposes to insert a definition of the Limerick-Shannon metropolitan area transport strategy, LSMATS, in the Bill. This is fundamentally about recognising the strategy in the legislation. It should be seen as more than a transport strategy. It is a development strategy for the vast growth of not just Limerick city and county, but also the mid-west region. It discusses developing the rail network in the region and opening up new sites for development, connecting Shannon Airport to the railway network and new stations in places such as Ballysimon and Lisnagry with park-and-ride facilities, as well as Raheen, where 7,000 or 8,000 people work. It also discusses a new station in Moyross and several other places. It is more than a transport strategy and is critically important for the development of Limerick and the whole region. It is key to making our region the counterbalance to the Dublin metropolitan region. There is an incredible imbalance with which the Minister of State will agree. I would like the LSMATS prescribed in the Bill because of its importance and to give the mayor, whoever they may be, in their first, second or third term and into the future, the mandate and power to negotiate with central government because it is an incredibly ambitious plan. If it is not treated with seriousness in this legislation and if the mayor is not given the mandate and responsibility to pursue the implementation of the strategy, it could easily be sidelined. That would be to the great cost of Limerick and the mid-west.

I would like it to be treated with the importance it deserves within the Bill. I do not want it to be sidelined. It is that important. All of those amendments are about enshrining the LSMATS in the Bill. The strategy is critical for the region.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I propose to address these amendments together as these have been grouped for discussion. These amendments relate to Part 4, which sets out the functions of the mayor.

Looking to amendment No. 20 first, it proposes the insertion of an additional definition for this Part, adding the "Limerick-Shannon Metropolitan Area Transport Strategy". This is to support the other amendments relating to the Limerick Project Ireland 2040 delivery board and associated transport subgroup. When we were putting together the legislation, we insisted on including the Project Ireland 2040 delivery board because it is overarching in terms of the delivery of infrastructure for Ireland and, more particularly, for Limerick.

LSMATS was published in December 2022. It was prepared by the National Transport Authority, NTA, in collaboration with Limerick City and County Council, Clare County Council and Transport Infrastructure Ireland, with the co-operation of Iarnród Éireann. It provides a roadmap for sustainable transport in the region over the next 20 years.

Amendments Nos. 27 and 28 propose the addition of a reference to LSMATS in relation to the functions of the delivery board. These amendments would expand the remit of this group to supporting, co-ordinating and monitoring the implementation of this transport strategy, in addition to other policies, including the national development plan and the Limerick-Shannon metropolitan area strategic plan. It also includes the development plan of the delivery board, which, as the Deputy is aware, includes LSMATS. The Limerick-Shannon metropolitan area strategic plan referenced is an integrated land-use and transportation strategy for a metropolitan area which is included in the regional spatial and economic strategy. Amendment No. 29 proposes the deletion of a reference to this plan as a strategy which the Limerick Project Ireland 2040 delivery board transport subgroup will have a function in supporting and the inclusion of the transport strategy in its place. The Limerick-Shannon metropolitan area strategic plan came from the Southern Regional Assembly, as the Deputy is well aware. It determined that each area should do its own transport strategy.

The general scheme of the Bill originally proposed the inclusion of the transport strategy as a plan which the delivery board would have a function in overseeing. However, this Bill has been drafted with regard to the fact that LSMATS is not a statutory document, nor is it defined in legislation. A number of national policies, including the national planning framework, the national sustainable mobility policy and the climate action plan, have committed to extending the National Transport Authority's statutory transport planning remit to the other cities, including the Limerick-Shannon metropolitan area, which would make the review and development of future LSMATS a statutory function of the NTA. The Department of Transport is currently scoping the legislative requirements needed to extend the NTA's remit. It would be premature to introduce a provision on LSMATS in advance of legislation to extend the National Transport Authority's planning remit which would place any future LSMATS on a statutory footing. Therefore, it is not appropriate to insert the references to this strategy as proposed in the amendments discussed.

In addition, the Limerick-Shannon metropolitan area strategic plan, a policy supported by both the delivery board and transport subgroup in Limerick, will be defined under the Planning and Development Bill 2023. The metropolitan area strategic plan forms part of the hierarchy of statutory plans that sit under the national planning framework and operationalises the national planning framework at a city level. The removal of a reference to LSMATS, as proposed in amendment No. 29, would undermine the connection of this subgroup to Project Ireland 2040. The Deputy will also be aware that I have changed the position so that the mayor will be an ex officio member of the Southern Regional Assembly. That was not proposed originally.

In any event, I consider the delivery board transport subgroup provides the mayor, as chair, with a sufficient role in transport matters by collaborating with public bodies in the implementation of the plans and strategies referred to and in the provision of transport infrastructure and services in Limerick. We have discussed this particular amendment at length with the Department of Transport. There is scope for the mayor to go into any area, including LSMATS. However, reference to LSMATS was not included in the legislation because it does not have a statutory footing at this time. That is the reason. There is import to the Deputy's propositions. We went over and back on the issue. A considerable amount of work went into framing the legislation to find a way to work with the Department of Transport on it. That is the situation.

Deputy Brian Leddin

I thank the Minister of State for the response. I see the rationale he has set out. It is positive that at some point in the not-too-distant future, the transport strategy will be put on a statutory footing. It is important that when that happens, this legislation is married to it-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Okay.

Deputy Brian Leddin

-----so that the mayor, whoever that may be, can drive its implementation. There needs to be a strong mandate prescribed in the legislation to allow the mayor to pursue LSMATS when it is on a statutory footing.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I am looking at the relevant section, which is section 34(4)(a). We specifically mentioned LSMATS primarily because it is there and set down under the Southern Regional Assembly's regional, spatial and economic strategy, RSES. It specifically mentions that each local authority must come up with its own plan under LSMATS. It is there on a statutory footing. Under this particular section, the mayor will have the authority to deal with LSMATS. At this moment, it is not on a statutory footing but when it does, it will automatically flow to be covered under section 34(4)(a).

Deputy Brian Leddin

I thank the Minister of State. I am happy to withdraw those amendments with the possibility of reintroducing them on Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 29 agreed to.

SECTION 30

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I move amendment No. 21:

In page 21, to delete lines 22 and 23 and substitute the following:

“(a) subject to paragraph (b), three times in each year at intervals of not more than 4 months, and”.

This amendment proposes that the consultative forum meet three times per year and at intervals not longer than four months, with a view to ensuring greater transparency and more regularity for these meetings. We are seeking meetings three times a year and at intervals of not more than four months.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Amendment No. 21 relates to section 30, which provides for the establishment of a Limerick mayoral and government consultative forum, facilitating engagement between the mayor and national government. I thank Deputy Quinlivan for his support for this important new structure. It is novel. This forum is new. I am convinced it will be key in supporting the office of mayor and helping to demonstrate the clear benefit to the people of Limerick of having a directly elected mayor. It is just one of the components.

This amendment seeks to increase the frequency and number of meetings of the Limerick mayoral and government consultative forum, providing that they must be held three times a year, up from twice a year. I see no benefit to placing a statutory obligation on this forum to meet more frequently than already provided for. In any event, section 30(8) provides that, in addition to the two meetings which must be held annually, as many further meetings as are necessary shall also be held.

I believe that the two provisions of this section combine to give a good balance. On the one hand, ensuring the group has a requirement for regular meetings brings focus and consistency to its work and, on the other hand, providing that other meetings may be added as required brings the flexibility the group will need to its work. When this provision was originally drafted, it required a meeting with the Minister once a year. I changed that to twice a year and did not prescribe that meetings should happen every six months because it would be too severe. The requirement is for a meeting to occur at intervals of between five and seven months. Further meetings can be held at the behest of either party and not only at the behest of the Minister. They can be held at the behest of the mayor or the Minister. We want to ensure flexibility. When we set down and define the requirements for meetings, I worry that they become ticking-box exercises. Two meetings are automatically required each year and thereafter there can be as many meetings as either party wishes to take place.

There is a secretariat being assigned to that implementation group from the Department, which we believe is hugely important. Tim O’Connor, who was chair of the implementation group, felt that was necessary and we have included it. It is to give flexibility. On that basis, we believe the section as currently drafted strikes the right balance and we will not accept the amendment.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

We believe we need three meetings annually and within four-month intervals, so we will press the amendment.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Section 30 agreed to.

SECTION 31

An Cathaoirleach

Amendments Nos. 22 and 23 are related and will be discussed together.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I move amendment No. 22:

In page 22, line 5, to delete “or observations” and substitute “, observations and potential amendments”.

Section 31(5) states “the Mayor shall, before finalising the Mayoral programme, consider any comments or observations”. This amendment will insert a reference to “potential amendments”. It is important with the transition to a democratically elected mayor that our commitment to local democracy and the role of local councillors does not become diluted. As such, it is important that councillors have an opportunity to do more than just comment and observe in the meeting. To respect local democracy, it is important that the power to table amendments to the programme be considered.

Amendment No. 23 refers to a non-statutory public consultation before finalising the mayoral programme. We emphasise the word "non-statutory". The opportunity for the electorate to consider the mayoral programme will enhance local democracy. The mayoral role is an elected role and the requirement for a public consultation reflects the democratic nature of the role. The reason we use the term "non-statutory" is that we know how long it can take and how complicated it can be. We are talking about having some sort of consultation on that.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Amendments Nos. 22 and 23 relate to section 31, which requires the mayor to prepare and publish a mayoral programme setting out the key priorities and objectives for his or her term of office. Amendment No. 22 seeks to oblige the mayor to consider any potential amendments to the mayoral programme proposed by the council. Section 31 already sets out that the mayor has an obligation to consider any comments or observations made by council members. I am satisfied that taking into account those comments or observations from members may lead to the mayor making amendments to the mayoral programme, if he or she so wishes. As such, I do not see a need for this amendment.

It is important to remember that the democratically elected mayor will run on a manifesto put before the people of Limerick and will be elected on that basis. It is important that the mayor prepare a mayoral programme that reflects that. In preparing the programme, the mayor may have regard to the statutory obligations of the council and relevant Government policies and objectives, and consider the views of the elected members. I consider the existing provisions in the Bill are appropriate in these circumstances.

Amendment No. 23 seeks to oblige the mayor to undertake a public consultation before finalising the mayoral programme. The mayor will have laid his or her manifesto before the people of Limerick and I consider that the most effective and extensive public consultation that could be undertaken.

Separately, the Bill provides for the establishment of a Limerick mayoral advisory and implementation committee. One of the functions of this committee is to assist the mayor in the preparation and delivery of the mayoral programme. I believe that is the appropriate forum for any other engagement that the mayor may think is appropriate.

The mayoral programme is the prerogative of the mayor. The annual budget is the reserved function of the council chamber, with the mayor being an additional member taking its membership from 40 to 41. The mayor puts his or her name before the people in a democratic way and is voted on by the people. He or she must have autonomy over that programme but is required to consult all stakeholders and the council chamber members. For the role to be highly effective, the mayor will have to take these views on board. For it to work, there will have to be collaboration with the chamber, reflective of what the public elected members on, and with the director general.

Both amendments are adequately covered in the legislation. We see what the amendments are seeking to achieve but this is already provided for. I cannot accept the amendments.

Deputy Michael McNamara

The Minister of State spoke of the importance of collaboration and said the mayor will essentially sit as a 41st councillor. I am confused as to why, given the mayor is required to do all this, there is a separate chairman of the council. The mayor has certain powers, the director general has certain powers and there is still a chairman of the council. The mayor will sit in the council and not even chair it. Certain powers are reserved in accordance with the schedule discussed earlier. What is the rationale for the creation of this chair or príomh comhairleoir? There will be more titles than derelict sites in Limerick by the time this Bill is passed.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Does the Deputy want to withdraw that comment?

An Cathaoirleach

We had the director of services for Limerick in and the council is doing quite well on derelict sites.

Deputy Michael McNamara

I will withdraw the comment for the simple reason that the current local authority is making great inroads on derelict sites. I will give it that.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

That is good to hear. It is the best in the country.

Deputy Michael McNamara

It is. I accept that completely.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

We may have differing views but we are all proud of Limerick.

An Cathaoirleach

Absolutely. Will Deputy McNamara finish the point, please?

Deputy Michael McNamara

Limerick is a city which has not been well served by local government. I do not mean the unelected representatives but decisions made by elected representatives over the years. However, we are not here to discuss the past. We can do that somewhere else.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Will I deal with the question?

Deputy Michael McNamara

Please do.

An Cathaoirleach

I am going to bring Deputy Leddin in. Deputy McNamara has put his question and Deputy Leddin has a question on the same issue. Deputy Quinlivan may also wish to come back in and we will then go to the Minister of State.

Deputy Brian Leddin

We are all proud to be from Limerick. I am reaching out to Deputy McNamara to be proud of the mid-west as well.

Deputy Michael McNamara

The mid-west needs a strong Limerick.

Deputy Brian Leddin

Perhaps colleagues will agree that Limerick, despite how fantastic a place it is, has huge potential and opportunity. I see this legislation as critical to Limerick taking the next steps forward. Rather than being a regional city, it could be a great European city. This legislation has the elements to bring Limerick from the third city in the country, which perhaps serves our capital in Dublin, to one that can stand on its own two feet and compete in a European context. That is exciting. For the most part, this legislation does that and I am very positive about it.

Amendment No. 23 somewhat undermines the new role. I agree with the Minister of State that the election is the consultation. The candidates stand on the basis of their manifesto, put forward their programme and vision for the city and county in the election and are elected accordingly. If it is prescribed in legislation that the mayor, having just been through an election, must go back to the people for a further consultation process, it is a recipe for division and undermines the election that has just happened.

I fully agree with the Minister of State that the election is what matters. Once it is over and the candidate is selected, the mayor should be allowed to develop a programme, put it to the elected council of Limerick and get on with the job.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

On amendment No. 22, the Minister of State referred to the mandate the new mayor will have, which is important, but councillors have a mandate as well and will have been elected on the same day as the mayor, whoever he or she may be. On that basis, we will be pressing the amendment.

On amendment No. 23, I believe consultation is important. I agree with some of what Deputy Leddin said; however, on the other point, probably not all candidates running for election will have read the mayor's policy. It is about giving them a chance. I am not saying the election should be re-run but referring to a short consultation. We use the phrase "non-statutory public consultation" so the consultation would not have to be other than that. We will be pressing this amendment also.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

It is all about striking a balance. Regarding Deputy McNamara's point on the speaker and deputy speaker, the arrangement was recommended by the implementation group chaired by Mr. Tim O'Connor. Deputy Leddin was part of that. Once again, it is about striking a balance to make certain that whatever we put in place will work. It is based on the New York model. We took many of the group's recommendations on board.

The mayor will be an executive mayor, but not with all areas devolved, and will be answerable to the local authority members in the same way as the chief executive officer. The mayor will also be a member of the local authority. When examining legislation, we were very mindful not to impinge in any way on the current reserved powers of members, who, as Deputy Quinlivan said, are democratically elected, which I very much respect. The annual budget is to be brought by the mayor, rather than the chief executive officer, to the council chamber and voted on, the latter being a reserved function of the councillors.

On the mayoral programme itself, funding will be from national Governments, which will not in any way interfere with the existing resources of the local authority. The manifesto will be very much subjected to probity requirements by the public at election time. The mayor will have statutory powers, having regard to the implementation group, in terms of interaction with national government. He or she will have to be kept informed of everything to do with Limerick and will be able to request any information on Limerick from the national Government. Furthermore, the mayor will be able to bring any stakeholders in the region to the mayoral advisory group on a statutory basis.

We believe the role of the councillors and their reserved powers will remain intact. It is a matter of striking a balance in this regard. The councillors, by way of a reserved function, are to retain control of the annual budget. The mayoral programme is to be brought to the people democratically. The mayor will still be required under legislation to appear in the chamber to hear councillors' observations. I expect mayors will very much take this on board in the normal way. They will already have engaged in public consultation.

It is important that the mayor's mandate be respected. The mayor will go out with a manifesto and obtain a mandate, after which the role will be to implement it. However, the other elected members of the chamber will be consulted.

Deputy Michael McNamara

I am still at a loss to see any rationale for the offices of speaker and vice speaker, and also of mayor, other than that they were recommended by the implementation group.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Once again, the rationale involved a judgment call on the part of the implementation group and on our part to take it on board. It was put forward by the board as a recommendation that would ensure another element that would make the new local authority run very smoothly. It has worked effectively in New York. Let us see how it works.

Deputy Michael McNamara

So it will run more smoothly. Could the Minister of State explain to me how it is likely to run more smoothly when there are so many titles and officeholders?

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

We wanted, as much as possible, to retain the means by which the existing council runs in the normal way. The mayor is to bring added value. We had the ceann comhairle and leas-cheann comhairle and there are now to be a speaker and deputy speaker. It is a political call that we took on board. If we set up implementation groups to make recommendations, we are subject to accusations if we do not take them on board. We seek to take them on board as much as possible, but not in every case. This is a matter that the implementation group felt very strongly about and we have implemented the recommendation in that regard.

Deputy Michael McNamara

I do not want to be difficult. I understand that the implementation group has recommended the arrangement and that the Minister of State, as the person driving this legislation, has taken it on board.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

When I entered office, it had already been taken on board. I inherited a general scheme and it was already recommended in that it had been adopted by the Government. It was not a call that I made in my role as Minister of State; it was already in a general scheme. This entails a Cabinet decision, and it is something that I, as Minister of State, have to implement. It could bring an added dimension and I do not see how it could be a negative. I see it as a positive. The mayor is to bring added value.

As referred to by Deputies Quinlivan and Leddin, we will have for the first time since the foundation of the State a mayor democratically elected by the people of Limerick. This will result in huge added value internationally. Visitors coming from abroad will now be visiting a democratically elected mayor in Limerick. It will also have added value for Clare. I involved the chief executive officer of Clare County Council on the transportation group because of considerations related to the Limerick–Shannon metropolitan area transport strategy. That is where it came out of.

In many cases, the practical aspects are as important as the legal ones because this has to work. We can beg to differ.

An Cathaoirleach

We are straying from the amendment. If we want a discussion on the roles of príomh comhairleoir, deputy príomh comhairleoir and mayor, we can do that at some other time, but I need to stick to the amendment.

Deputy Michael McNamara

Therefore, I will table an amendment on Report Stage to abolish the office of príomh comhairleoir. I have heard no basis advanced for the creation of this new office.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

It came from an implementation group comprising all stakeholders, including councillors. One of the recommendations on evolving towards a directly elected mayor was that the office to which the Deputy is referring would provide further cohesion in working with councillors. Ultimately, everyone has to work together on this. I have an open mind on it. It has been put forward constructively and I cannot see how it is a negative. It allows the mayor to get into the policy space and drive Limerick in this regard. That is what it is about. If the mayor does only what the cathaoirleach has been doing to date, the role will not bring added value.

Deputy Michael McNamara

May I ask just one question?

An Cathaoirleach

I am going to put the question shortly. Deputy McNamara should be as brief as possible. We have dealt with this, even during pre-legislative scrutiny.

Deputy Michael McNamara

I have no problem saying the mayor should have powers in addition to those of the cathaoirleach. What is happening, however, is that we are giving the mayor some powers – I would say not enough – but not even all the powers of the cathaoirleach.

There is one person who is getting some of the powers of the cathaoirleach, the mayor is getting other powers, and-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The primary element of this is the devolution of executive functions from the chief executive officer, CEO, to the mayor. That is the principal logic behind this. The Deputy is going into another space that is separate.

Deputy Michael McNamara

Yes.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The principal logic of this is that we have a directly elected mayor with executive powers. That will evolve even more over time. Deputy McNamara is going into a different area. For me that is a separate issue again. It is almost housekeeping. The mayor is taking over executive powers being brought forward. I mentioned two areas - the budget and the development plans the CEOs were doing. We can go into a wider discussion but that is-----

An Cathaoirleach

I do not want to go into a wider discussion. Will Deputy Quinlivan bring us back on track on amendment No. 22?

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I will go back to amendment No. 22 and some of the comments the Minister of State made earlier about the implementation group. The report was very good but not all stakeholders were included and we are on record as saying this. My party was excluded from that implementation group at the time, even though we were the only party to make a submission to it. I will put that on the record, that is an old-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I mean-----

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

It was not done at the time.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

It should not take away from the fact that it was very well chaired.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

It was very well chaired and I have huge respect for the chairperson. I met him on a number of occasions.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The members put a lot into it.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

We were the only party to put in a submission and we were the only party to be excluded from it.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy Quinlivan for that clarification. Is the amendment being pressed?

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

It is being pressed.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I move amendment No. 23:

In page 22, between lines 6 and 7, to insert the following:

“(6) The Mayor shall before finalising the Mayoral programme, undertake a process of non-statutory public consultation with the people of Limerick City and County regarding the Mayoral programme.”.

On the basis of what the Minister of State said, we will withdraw the amendment with leave to bring it back again.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 31 agreed to.

SECTION 32

An Cathaoirleach

Amendments Nos. 24 to 26, inclusive, are related and may be discussed together.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I move amendment No. 24:

In page 22, lines 25 and 26, to delete “by the Mayor as the Mayor considers appropriate, and” and substitute “by the D’Hondt system, and”.

What we are looking at in amendment No. 24 is the D’Hondt system. We reference local democracy and are supportive of the democratic elements of the election of members of the Limerick mayoral advisory implementation committee. The current wording is too broad and has potential to allow a mayor to just select councillors from his or her own party. The introduction of a democratic selection process is important to ensure all elected councillors have an equality of opportunity to participate in this forum. Amendment No. 25 is about expanding the base to include, but not limited to business, trade unions, and the community and voluntary sector, so as to include a wider swathe of the public to these positions and ensure the community, trade unions and employers are all represented on that. Did the Chair say amendment No. 26 as well?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, we will take them together.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

It is the same thing.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The amendments in Deputy Quinlivan's name relate to section 32 of the Bill which provides for the establishment of a Limerick mayoral advisory and implementation committee. Amendment No. 24 seeks to change the manner in which council members are appointed to this committee. As mentioned, one of the main functions of the committee, chaired by the mayor, is to assist the mayor in the preparation and implementation of the mayoral programme. It will also work with the mayor in supporting economic, tourism, social and cultural matters, considering initiatives to sustain employment, co-ordinating initiatives, services and funding to support rural areas and measures concerning the regeneration of cities and towns. As such it is appropriate that the mayor appoints such persons, including members of the council and from nominating bodies, as they consideration appropriate. The mayor can basically invite who he or she wishes. It is broad. Therefore, on that basis I cannot accept this amendment.

Amendment No. 25 proposes to suggest what type of nominating bodies the mayor could seek nominations from to participate in the committee. Representation from businesses, trade unions, and community and voluntary sector organisations certainly has merit. I am satisfied that the generality of the provision as currently drafted means that there will be no difficulty with these sectors being requested by the mayor to nominate a person to the committee, should the mayor wish to do so. Therefore, I see no need for this amendment. Once again it goes back to the democratic mandate of the mayor.

Amendment No. 26 seeks to prevent the mayor from dissolving their own committee or sub-committees without having the approval of the elected members to do so. Section 32 enables the mayor to establish and constitute the members of the committee but this proposes that they may not dissolve these without council approval. As I mentioned, this is the mayor’s committee and it is a matter for this democratically elected mayor to have responsibility for all matters relating to it. The mayor is setting up the committee and I do not think he or she should have to seek approval to dissolve it. We believe there is more than enough scope for the mayor to include who they wish on the committee. On those grounds, I do not see a need to accept the amendments.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I move amendment No. 25:

In page 22, line 28, after “subsection (4)” to insert “, including, but not limited to, businesses, trade unions, community and voluntary sector organisations”.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I move amendment No. 26:

In page 23, line 31, after “time” to insert “, subject to the approval of elected members,”.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 32 agreed to.

SECTION 33

Deputy Brian Leddin

I move amendment No. 27.

In page 24, line 26, after “Plan” to insert “, the Limerick-Shannon Metropolitan Area Transport Strategy”.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Deputy Brian Leddin

I move amendment No. 28:

In page 24, line 38, after “Plan” to insert “, the Limerick-Shannon Metropolitan Area Transport Strategy”.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 33 agreed to.

SECTION 34

Deputy Brian Leddin

I move amendment No. 29:

In page 26, lines 11 and 12, to delete “Limerick-Shannon metropolitan area strategic plan” and substitute “Limerick-Shannon Metropolitan Area Transport Strategy”.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 34 agreed to.

NEW SECTION

An Cathaoirleach

We have to be out of the room in five minutes but I will ask Deputy Leddin to move amendment No. 30, which is a new section, and speak to it.

Deputy Brian Leddin

I move amendment No. 30:

In page 26, between lines 23 and 24, to insert the following:

“Report on new sources of income

35. The Mayor may prepare a report for the consideration of the Minister for Finance identifying potential new sources of income for the local authority for the development of Limerick, based on international best practice.”.

With respect to the previous amendments that were withdrawn, I withdrew with leave to reintroduce them on Report Stage. Amendment No. 30 is an eminently sensible amendment, if I do say so myself. It proposes that the mayor, within a year of taking office, prepare a report for the Minister for Finance that would look at possible new sources of revenue for Limerick city and county. There is a tradition that elected mayors across the world, whether in France, Switzerland, Germany, the UK, North America, generally have the ability to raise finance. It is with this finance that they can pursue their vision and implement their programme.

It is sensible that the mayor would produce a report but to prescribe it in legislation puts an onus on the Minister of Finance to consider it. The Minister of Finance of the day can then do whatever he or she sees fit. What this does is it enables the mayor to examine possible new sources of finance which could be very helpful for the mayor.

I was travelling in Europe in the summer and stayed in hotels as I went along. Every night I made the booking on booking.com but separately had to pay a tourist tax at the hotel every night in any country, region, or city I was in. It was approximately 50 cent to €1.50 but this revenue, which the mayor in those places was accruing, was very substantial and was paying for really critical services that helped the tourism economy through the provision of services such as transport, waste management, and so on. It also helped the local people because the very same services are of benefit to them too.

As well as that, by raising finance in that kind of way - I am not saying a tourist is necessarily the way to do it - the mayor should be able to examine new sources of revenue and there should be an implied power in the legislation for the mayor to recommend to the Minister for Finance of the day that certain revenue streams should be explored. It is very much in line with the tradition of directly elected mayors across the world. It makes absolute sense and I ask that the Minister of State agree to the amendment.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Amendment No. 30 tabled by Deputy Leddin proposes a new section in this Bill to provide that the mayor may prepare a report for the consideration of the Minister for Finance identifying potential new sources of income for Limerick. Under the Local Government Act 2001, as amended, local authorities can charge for specific goods and services. They can levy commercial rates, which are not a tax, under Victorian-era legislation. From 2024, they will levy commercial rates under the Local Government Rates and Other Matters Act 2019, as amended. However, local authorities do not have a role in taxation policy. The Commission on Taxation and Welfare was tasked by Government to independently consider how best the taxation and welfare systems can support economic activity and promote increased employment and prosperity in Ireland. The commission reported to the Minister for Finance in 2022 on alternative sources of local taxation. Proposals include a site value tax and a tourism or bed tax. The report is for the consideration of the Minister for Finance, who has sole responsibility for taxation policy. Decisions about tax changes are generally taken in the context of the budget and as part of the normal annual budget preparations and the finance Bill process.

One of the reasons the implementation forum was established was not only about regular interaction between the mayor and national government but also within its remit was to consider the evolution of powers and their further delegation, and around the whole area falling into exactly what the directly elected mayor role will do. Technically, we are going into the point that it does not fall in under the remit of local authority. However, I take it that the thrust of the Deputy's point is about that whole area. I expect that not on taxation, but in the general area of evolution of powers, this forms part of the legislation under the section on the implementation group. What the Deputy is looking for in substance, while maybe not in technical detail, will be covered under the implementation group in our review. On that basis, the amendment is not appropriate or required and I cannot accept it.

An Cathaoirleach

I will have to adjourn the meeting as there is another committee meeting in this room. We have gone over a little bit.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

The select committee adjourned at 5.02 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Thursday, 16 November 2023.