Select Committee on Justice díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 14 Feb 2023

Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)

Acting Chairman (Deputy Alan Farrell)

Apologies have been received from the Chair, Deputy Lawless. He has asked me to chair the meeting in his place with the agreement of the committee. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The meeting is being convened to consider the Revised Estimates for Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána, Vote 21 - Prisons, Vote 22 - Courts Service, Vote 24 - Justice, Vote 41 - Policing Authority and Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission. I thank the Minister and his officials for attending and assisting in our consideration of the Revised Estimates. I thank them for the provision of the information related to them. I propose that the Minister make some brief opening remarks, after which I will invite members to make a contribution. As is the normal committee procedure, the format of the meeting is that we will consider each Vote in order to move onto the next one and refer to the subhead which makes up the Revised Estimates. We can then have a brief closing remarks at the end of that consideration. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I remind members that in accordance with Standing Orders, discussions shall be confined to items constituting the Revised Estimates. I also remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person outside of the House or any official by name or in such a way as to make him or identifiable. I invite the Minister to make his opening remarks.

Minister for Justice (Deputy Simon Harris)

I thank the members of the committee and appreciate them giving me this time today. I have circulated my script so I will be quite brief in order to engage. I am seeking the committee's approval for the Revised Estimates for the Justice Vote group to provide for much-needed investment across our sector. The Estimates provide for a gross expenditure of over €3.4 billion across the six Votes in my Department and the justice sector, €3.134 billion of which relates to current expenditure and €293.5 million in capital expenditure. In addition, an amount of €5 million in unspent capital from 2022 has been carried over to 2023, bringing the total capital allocation available to €298.5 million.

I will set out in some detail the key developments in the Revised Estimates for Public Services 2023 in respect of each of the individual Votes, but the main objective of the funding in 2023 is to protect our communities and to support victims. This is core to what we do in the Department of Justice. The budgetary allocation reflects the ongoing and increased investment in supports for people and communities impacted by crime and also the broad range of services offered to the public, recognising the need to accelerate the digitisation of the services.

The gross expenditure for Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána is €2.25 billion, which amounts to around 66% of the funding for the entire Vote group. This includes a capital allocation of €183 million. As members may recall, there was a capital budget in 2022 of €146.5 million, and additional funding of €25 million was allocated as part of last year's Supplementary Estimates process, which brought capital funding to €171.5 million in 2022. The 2023 capital expenditure of €183 million comprises €100 million for Garda ICT, €50 million for the capital building and refurbishment programme, €10 million for transport and €21.5 million for the air support unit. In the region of 87% of the Garda current expenditure budget is pay and pensions related. I am pleased that the funding for 2023 provides for a further 1,000 gardaí to commence training and for the recruitment of an additional 400 Garda staff to free up more gardaí for front-line duties. It is a core objective this year to get 1,000 gardaí into Templemore and to start growing Garda numbers again, as we want to reach Garda numbers of 15,000 and beyond during the course of the lifetime of this Government. Garda management is planning significant recruitment this year, with intakes scheduled for the coming weeks and in May, July, October and December, meaning up to 1,000 new Garda recruits will enter the college this year. The organisation's capacity will be further strengthened by the recruitment of additional Garda staff, including to specialist roles, to support the investigation of crime and enhance the management of An Garda Síochána. I am pleased to say that as of 31 December 2022, more than 880 Garda members have been released from posts not requiring Garda powers or expertise and their duties reassigned to Garda staff.

This in turn has facilitated the redeployment of Garda members to operational and front-line duties. This process will continue in 2023. This year we see €6 million for new ballistic vests to protect our front-line gardaí; €3 million to support the introduction of body-worn cameras and we have to get that legislation passed through both Houses of the Oireachtas and start protecting gardaí on the front line; and €5.5 million for Garda operational expenditure including provision for new mobile devices, equipment for a range of Garda specialist units as well as, importantly, ongoing training in regard to priority areas, including tackling sexual, domestic and gender based violence.

Before moving on from the Garda Vote, I wish to take this opportunity to acknowledge and thank the members and staff of An Garda Síochána for their exemplary service in supporting our communities. Their work is valued and appreciated by people throughout the country. It is important that the work of the organisation continues to be supported. The Government and the Oireachtas are committed to doing this particularly in the context of the ongoing reform programme and the recruitment campaign, which will benefit both the Garda organisation and the public it serves.

My Department’s Vote, Vote 24, has a gross estimate provision of €546.7 million. The budget is broken down into two separate programmes, criminal justice and civil justice, comprising almost 50 separate subheads, including support for a number of agencies. My colleague, the Minister, Deputy McEntee, secured an extra €9 million in the Estimates, which represents a 22% increase, for combating domestic, sexual and gender based violence, DSGBV. I acknowledge the huge priority she attaches to this and ensure the committee that I intend to continue this focus in her absence. This reflects the fact that tackling these crimes and supporting victims is a top priority for the Government. The Government will now establish a new statutory agency with a dedicated focus on DSGBV under the remit of my Department. My firm intention is to have this new agency operational by next January. Pending establishment of the agency, responsibility for the allocation of funding for domestic violence services continues to be channelled through Tusla.

The Department has also allocated an additional €5.8 million in funding to promote and assist the development of specific support services for victims of crime within the criminal justice system, which includes victims of domestic and sexual crime. An additional €1 million was provided under the Garda Vote to refurbish the divisional protective service units. My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy James Browne, has published our Youth Justice Strategy 2021-2027. The immediate priority within this strategy is to enhance engagement with children and young people who are most at risk of involvement in criminal activity, principally by strengthening the services available through the existing network of 105 youth diversion projects, YDPs. Youth justice funding has been increased by €2.5 million to €24 million, providing the resources to deliver the key objectives in the youth justice strategy and, in particular, the programme to expand and deepen the range of supports made available through our local YDP services.

A number of other agencies in our sector have received additional funding. The Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission received an extra €2.9 million, bringing its total allocation to €16.6 million. This reflects its increased workload in terms of both volume and complexity and equips it to prepare for significant change coming over the next year with the advent of the new Policing, Security and Community Safety Bill, which will begin to be debated in these Houses next week. Funding for the Legal Aid Board amounted to €47.9 million in 2022. An additional €3 million was allocated to it in budget 2023. Increased resources have been made available to the Inspector of Prisons who I was pleased to meet last week and the Parole Board, which I have also seen. I am pleased that we now have a €3 million fund provided to what we call the community safety innovation fund, which is up €1 million on the previous year. This is making sure that we take the funds from criminality and provide them to communities in terms of investment in community safety projects.

We have seen a significant increase in investment in our International Protection Office, IPO. During 2022 the number of people claiming international protection increased significantly with 13,651 applications made. This is a 186% increase on the same period in 2019, the last year in which application numbers were not impacted by Covid-19. Additional funding of nearly €18 million will go towards increasing efficiency in international processing applications, to reduce the risk of people remaining in the system for long periods with uncertainty about their status. I will be very clear in this regard. Immigration is a good thing; welcoming people to our country is a good thing. Faster processing times are also a good thing. Members do not need to take my word for that. I heard the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, UNHCR, representatives of the Immigrant Council of Ireland and migrant rights groups talk about the importance of accelerated processing times. This is about making sure that people get certainty about their position much more quickly. We have a very clear aim of making sure that anyone who comes to Ireland from a country of safe origin in 2023 gets a first-instance decision in three months, down from between 17 and 24 months last year. That is why we are increasing staff. It is already beginning to work. It is an important part of any migration system. As I said, we have €18 million which will see an increase in staff in the whole area of international protection.

We also have an allocation of €1.7 million in 2023 to the gambling regulatory authority will go towards start-up costs. We have legislation that we need to consider in these Houses but it is important that we establish an implementation support team, initial staff appointments, accommodation and professional services. I know there is, or at least I think there is, a real willingness and desire on all sides of these Houses to make progress on the whole area of gambling regulation.

Turning to the prison Vote, Vote 21, the gross estimate in 2023 is €421.9 million, plus an additional €3.2 million in unspent capital. I will go a little quicker on this because I am conscious of the time of the committee. We have seen the redevelopment of Limerick Prison, replacing an old jail dating from 1821. We have also seen the development of the new women's prison. I look forward to visiting both very shortly. Additional funding of €6.5 million will provide for the recruitment of approximately 100 extra staff. We are making real progress in terms of staffing numbers in the Prison Service. I want to thank the Irish Prison Service for its work in that regard. Physical visits have now returned on a weekly basis in our prisons since 12 December last year and visitation rates are now close to pre-Covid levels. I want to acknowledge sincerely the impact that Covid-19 has had on the operations of the Prison Service, the incredible collective efforts that have been made by the Irish Prison Service staff, management, prisoners and Red Cross volunteers. I met with some Red Cross volunteer prisoners in Clover Hill Prison recently. People have done a huge amount of work throughout the Covid-19 pandemic to keep people safe in prison and insofar as possible to keep Covid-19 out of or to minimum levels within the Prison Service. This has been recognised internationally by the WHO. I want to acknowledge all involved, staff and prisoners, in the success in that regard.

In regard to our courts Vote, which is Vote 22, we have €179.6 million being provided as well as the allocation of a further €2.5 million for the courts modernisation programme. I am committed to driving this modernisation agenda, the digital first agenda, throughout the entire justice sector. I particularly welcome the commitment set out by the Courts Service. I should flag, as I believe it is really important that we increase judicial numbers in this country, that I have now received the report done by the group chaired by Brigid McManus. I intend to try to bring that report to Government shortly, in the coming weeks, with a view to publishing and hopefully making progress on it. Judicial numbers are not about judges but actually about making sure people have timely access to justice across a whole range of areas including the family courts. That is a big priority for us in the coming weeks.

In regard to data protection, the Data Protection Commission, Vote 44, has seen a gross estimate of €26.9 million being made available. This allocation includes an increase of €3.7 million compared with the previous year. To put this into perspective, the funding for the Data Protection Commission in 2015 was €3.6 million. It is now €26.9 million. As many major technology companies are headquartered in Ireland, the Data Protection Commission, DPC, has a significant lead supervisory authority responsibility role throughout the European Union. This extra budget allocation will allow for increased staff, including hiring two new commissioners, alongside the renovation of the new office premises for the DPC over the course of 2023.

The final Vote is Vote 41, which is the Policing Authority Vote of €4.2 million of a gross estimate for 2023. It includes €0.2 million in anticipated expenditure in 2023 in respect of the establishment of the policing and community safety authority, PCSA, which will merge the existing broad-ranging functions of the Policing Authority and the inspection function of the Garda Síochána Inspectorate. Merging the functions of the two bodies ensures that the new body through its inspection function will have access to real-time information.

I welcome the opportunity to discuss these Revised Estimates.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Alan Farrell)

I thank the Minister. We will now commence our consideration of Vote 20. I call on Deputy Martin Kenny to make his contribution and ask questions.

Deputy Martin Kenny

I thank the Minister. I apologise, as I was late in coming in for his opening remarks. In regard to An Garda Síochána and the additional funding put in place, the real issue as I see it across the entire process here is about recruitment and retention in the first instance. It is really turning into a crisis situation. I acknowledge the targets the Government have had but those targets have fallen short because we have an issue with being able to recruit and also about being able to retain the people who are recruited. I hope there will be an analysis taking place somewhere within this to try to find out what needs to be done to ensure that people sign up to join An Garda Síochána and that we are able to recruit the numbers that we require.

The training allowance, which is very low, is one of the issues, because people are not able to manage on that. Certainly, if they have to pay for rental accommodation or anything else, it is ridiculous. It is below what a person would get in a jobseeker's payment. It needs to be acknowledged that work has to be done on that.

What can be done for long-term retention? It is similar to the situation which the Minister had experience of in the health service. We had many people working in the health service who were in situations, particularly in hospitals, where there were not enough nurses to do the job, so they felt under pressure, were not able to do the job and simply pulled out of it. It is similar in An Garda Síochána. I have spoken to members of the Garda at length. They tell me of situations where they are called to an incident and they know they need at least four or five personnel but they only have two. The two arrive, are abused and attacked, and are not able to manage the situation. It destroys their morale, competence and capability to be able to react to similar situations. I think the primary issue is in regard to recruitment and retention.

I acknowledge the work that has been done in regard to additional equipment, particularly the body cameras and so on. That is progress which needs to happen and should have happened much sooner. Unless a grip is got on this and there is a plan as to where and how An Garda Síochána will be able to recruit more members and retain those members, we will move into a crisis.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

My point is similar to Deputy Kenny's. I thank the Minister for his engagement. According to figures that we have, we have 650 fewer gardaí than we had before the pandemic. There is a report in the Irish Independent that we have 42 stations around the country with no permanent staff. We are advocating in Dublin Bay North, my own constituency, for a new Garda station for the huge, expanding community in Dublin 13 and Dublin 17, which I know the Minister will say is an operational matter for the Garda Commissioner. It is the go-to response for the Minister for Justice but we got different responses when it came to the southside - Stepaside Garda station comes to mind - where a Minister could jump in and make things happen. The overall point is about morale within the force. There is a feeling that people are leaving the force because of issues such as Deputy Kenny has outlined, but if morale is at such a point, then it affects the security of the State and people's belief that they are being protected. Those numbers speak for themselves. Is the Minister convinced that his presentation will deal with the gap in the numbers that we have had over the last years, that it will deal with the adequate staffing of stations around the country and that it will ensure that morale in the force can be enhanced? The feeling from Garda members to whom I speak is that it does not feel like a pleasant place to work or a supported workforce. That is why people in An Garda Síochána want to get out and not enough people want to get in.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Alan Farrell)

I call Deputy Pringle.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

I was not expecting to speak so quickly.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Alan Farrell)

We are on Vote 20. We will do each individually, so the Deputy can come back in plenty of times. This one is on the Garda budget.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

I did not want to ask anything about that. That is grand.

Deputy Niamh Smyth

I thank the Minister. I am delighted to see that Bailieborough Garda station is a top priority for him. It is important not just for Bailieborough but for the entire region, which includes Cavan, Monaghan and Louth. Members of the Garda in east Cavan have had to put up with deplorable facilities up to this point, working out of Portakabins in a building that is really not fit for purpose. It is really welcome. My expectation is that we will open doors there in the fourth quarter of this year. The Minister might confirm that. That is all that I want to say under this Vote. I will keep an eye on that and look forward to having the Minister come to open it.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Alan Farrell)

I thank Deputy Smyth. For my own brief contribution, I echo Deputy Smyth's contribution on the capital building and refurbishment programme. It is a necessary element of the budget. Has the Minister information on this particular €50 million that has been allocated? Is that specific to the two stations or is that the general budget for refurbishment costs countrywide? The Minister might provide more information on that.

Recruitment and retention is the obvious issue. My colleagues have covered it well at this stage. In those figures that are in the public domain, there is concern but it does not give a true account of the reasons why numbers have dropped off. I am aware of the numbers provided within this that a significant number of non-sworn members of An Garda Síochána have taken up roles, which has freed up additional gardaí. Is there a net figure, outside of the 600-odd reduction, for the number of gardaí who are available on the beat compared with the number of individuals who have left the force?

My other comment is on transport, vehicles and the budget allocated to the air wing of An Garda Síochána. Some 180 vehicles are to be purchased in 2023, which is welcome. Is it sufficient to deal with the issues with vehicles that we have raised? As the Minister knows, I have been a Member of the House for nearly 12 years and a member of this committee for nearly seven years out of those three terms. There is a perennial discussion about whether vehicles are fit for purpose. I wonder whether we have caught up with that with this sort of allocation. Will the helicopter that is being retired be sold? If so, is the Minister expecting a return on that? Will the Minister indicate the type of aircraft that is being purchased to replace the Britten-Norman aeroplane? I am an aviation geek and am asking the question while I am in the Chair. Deputy Pringle has some questions.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

Something popped into my mind as the Chair was speaking. I ask the Minister about the on-board system, which I do not know the name of, that the Garda uses to monitor cars, traffic and data on driving licences. How can that be kept up to date? The Minister was in the Dáil last week when I mentioned an incident I had a couple of years ago where I was stopped in the North and the PSNI was able to tell me everything to do with my car because it could access the on-board system that the gardaí used. A couple of hours later, I was stopped by members of the Garda in Donegal who said they would be able to tell me such things if I came along the following Wednesday, because they had the car that was able to do that perhaps once or twice a week. Will that be rolled out across the board in the State? What is the delay in it being rolled out now?

Acting Chairman (Deputy Alan Farrell)

We are all intrigued about why the PSNI and the Garda were looking at Deputy Pringle's registration.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

I was a bit intrigued myself but the thing is that the Garda members were not looking at it.

Deputy Simon Harris

I definitely will not comment on that. I thank colleagues for the questions. Deputies Kenny, Ó Ríordáin, Smyth and Farrell raised the issue of Garda numbers and recruitment. Recruitment and the growth of numbers in An Garda Síochána is a top priority for the Government, the Department of Justice, and the Garda Commissioner. As recently as Friday, I met the Commissioner about this matter. We have regular engagement on it. He said clearly that he wishes to grow the number of sworn members of An Garda Síochána to above 15,000. That is also my objective and the objective of Government. Today, there are more than 14,000 members of An Garda Síochána. As of the end of December, which is the latest month I have figures for, there were 14,133 Garda members. There needs to be some context to commentary on Garda numbers because that is an increase of 10% since 2015. Ireland had 12,816 gardaí in 2015 and we now have more than 14,000. In addition to that, on the Acting Chair's point, in that period, we have seen a significant increase in Garda staff. We now have 3,126 Garda staff alongside those sworn members of An Garda Síochána. From memory, in response to the Acting Chair's question, there had been 880 transfers of duties from gardaí to instead being carried out by civilians as of the end of last year.

There are on average around 70 resignations from An Garda Síochána every year. Less than 1% of sworn members of the Garda resign, so there needs to be some context in relation to that. Having said that, I am clear that recent years have been very challenging for recruitment. We can debate the reasons and rationale behind that, and it is not without merit. However, it is also a statement of fact, as the figures show, that the closure of the Garda College during Covid had a significant impact on recruitment. There is absolutely no doubt about that. I was in Templemore recently at an attestation. I will be back there again later this month. The college is well back up and running now. A new class will be going in very shortly. There will be a further one in May, and another one pretty much every ten to 11 weeks throughout this year. The objective is to get 1,000 men and women through the gates of Templemore College this year to start seeing our Garda numbers grow again.

I take the comments of representative bodies very seriously. It would be a very foolish Minister, or anybody else, who does not listen to representative bodies and representatives of those on the front line. I am engaging with them and meeting with them later this month. I will be at their annual conferences. I want to hear what they have to say. I want to work collaboratively with them. The training allowance, raised by Deputy Kenny, is something to which I am giving active consideration.

However, I need to be clear to members of the public that today there are more than 14,133 members of the Garda. Recruitment is ramping back up. This will be a year of major recruitment, and the Government and Oireachtas have funded the Garda Commissioner and An Garda Síochána to recruit 1,000 new gardaí this year. That has to be a relentless focus.

I acknowledge and thank Deputy Kenny and others in this House for their support on legislation for bodycams. It is very important. I know there are debates and discussions for other Chambers and other days around facial recognition technology, FRT. On the issue of bodycams, however, I very much welcome the Deputy's support. It is a very important tool we can give to gardaí. I find it slightly ironic that the only people without a camera who are present at public protests are gardaí. That is illogical, ironic and, at times, dangerous to gardaí and the public on occasion. That is important legislation and, I hope, an important message we send to the members of An Garda Síochána and their families that we value the safety of gardaí on the front line.

I take the issue of recruitment and retention extremely seriously, but there is a need for some context in this. There was much comment yesterday about 25% of Garda stations seeing a reduction in Garda numbers. That means 75% saw Garda numbers either remain static or rise. There is some discussion about it, but 75% of Garda stations seeing an increase or the same number of gardaí is the inverse of 25% seeing a reduction. I am very conscious that, in those communities which have seen a decrease, this needs to be rectified as Garda numbers grow. There needs to be a fair and logical distribution. It is an operational matter for the Commissioner, but I know he appreciates that, to direct resources to both community policing and our specialist units, which are doing very important work in tackling gangland crime, sexual violence and many other areas.

On the issue of Garda vehicles, we saw a net gain of 72 Garda vehicles last year. There are lots of figures, but we are up by 72 in the number of Garda vehicles. Knowing the Acting Chair's active interest in the area, I will provide the committee with a note on his helicopter and aviation questions. I would be bluffing otherwise, so let me come back to the committee with a note on that.

To Deputy Ó Ríordáin, I know it must be frustrating when a Minister for Justice says something is an operational matter. While certain things are operational matters, I am happy to engage with him specifically on the needs and concerns of his constituents. I am happy to meet him on the issue of Garda stations and provision.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

It is long in gestation.

Deputy Simon Harris

Will the Deputy remind me of the specific station?

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

It is Northern Cross. The site has been identified. The Office of Public Works, OPW, the Garda Síochána and Dublin City Council are engaging on it. I appreciate the Minister's gesture there.

Deputy Simon Harris

While it is an operational matter, that is not to say a Member of Dáil Éireann should not be able to get information about that. I see it on a pipeline of projects and I see funding allocated against it. Perhaps I can get a detailed note for the Deputy on timelines.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

That is fine.

Deputy Simon Harris

Turning to Bailieborough and Deputy Smyth's question, I am pleased that there is real progress on this. It looks from the timing and allocation of funding that the bulk of works will be carried out this year, with some smaller amount of works going into next year. There is a very significant allocation in terms of moving that project forward in a real and substantive way. I know that is something of significant importance to Bailieborough and is something the Deputy has raised on many occasions.

Deputy Pringle asked about the issue of automated number plate recognition, ANPR. The Bill we have published is to provide for Garda powers to expand their use of that. However, I have seen cars in Garda HQ and I know there is a roll-out programme. I will ask for a detailed note from the Garda to address the Deputy's question as to when all Garda cars will be equipped with the material so he does not have the situation he encountered.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

It can now be legally rolled out to the PSNI but it cannot be legally rolled out to the Garda.

Deputy Simon Harris

It can be rolled out to the Garda. The Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) Bill 2022 is to make provision for expanded use. As the Deputy will remember me saying in the Dáil last week, that is about linking in with the Dublin Port Company and the National Roads Authority. If the issue the Deputy is referring to is one of having the equipment in the cars, that roll-out is under way already. I have been in cars with that in place, but the question is when all cars will have it.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

If it comes to Donegal, one garda will have it one day per week.

Deputy Simon Harris

I will request information as to when we will have the roll-out to all Garda vehicles and I will revert to the committee.

Deputy Niamh Smyth

Regarding the old building, which gardaí will be leaving behind to what it is hoped will be a happy distant memory for them, we have ideas for the use of that building within the community. The Minister might chat with me, aside from the meeting, about how we engage with the Department or the OPW on the repurposing of that building.

I could not let the opportunity go when the Minister spoke about retention and recruitment. Will he speak further to that? At justice and policing committee, JPC, meetings over the past 12 to 18 months, the topic of the drugs unit for Cavan-Monaghan has been raised time and again. I know it is an operational matter, but I make the point that, over Christmas and the new year, I attended the funerals of three very young people, at all of which the priests were very vocal and robust that this is a drugs-related issue. It is a frightening thing to see a chapel full of young people and families speaking very openly about it. I am afraid our towns are being overrun by drug barons and drug pushers. I feel our chief superintendent is fighting this war with one hand tied behind his back in terms of having the resources to do this. Will the Minister please speak to the Commissioner to see what other resources there are? We absolutely need to ramp up the drugs unit across Cavan-Monaghan.

Deputy Pa Daly

Arising from what the Minister has said and the Second Stage of the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) Bill 2022 last week, I know we are awaiting the facial recognition technology aspect. When does the Minister think that legislation will be ready? I know the Commissioner committed to a pilot programme. In advance of that, will the Minister commit to some sort of independent oversight or investigation of the type of facial recognition technology that will be used on the bodycams? There is no difficulty with bodycams. They were called for a number of years ago in the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland, the Garda wanted them, and it has been shown in the North that the number of complaints against members of the police service there were reduced following installation of the bodycams. Will the Minister commit to an independent oversight or review of the type of technology to be used?

While I welcome the additional 500 gardaí, I see from constituents and the Garda in Killarney, that in what is one of the busiest towns in the country - it is equivalent to some cities on weekends, and all year round, really - gardaí there can be very stretched. Will the Minister commit that in the event there are additional gardaí, Killarney in particular will be looked at to have additional gardaí on the streets? They could be operating on a very small unit equivalent for a town of 10,000 or 12,000, but there could be a lot more people out in the town in comparison with other places?

Deputy Simon Harris

Deputy Smyth's question about the soon to be old building and community use in Bailieborough is probably a matter for the OPW, but I will certainly relay that to the OPW. I think there has been a good tradition of community involvement and discussion about the use of former buildings. I am not sure of the OPW's plans, but I will certainly relay her view, which sounds sensible.

I am grateful the Deputy raised the issue of drugs and drug use, and I express my sincere sympathies to those families.

I am delighted, genuinely, that we have taken a decision to establish a citizens' assembly on drugs. I see Deputy Ó Ríordáin's badge, which in fairness I consistently see. I think this will be welcomed by all sides, all political parties and none in the Oireachtas. It is a very good structure to tease through these issues and I am looking forward to it progressing. I met the Garda drugs unit recently on this. I share the Deputy's analysis. I am extremely concerned about the prevalence of drug use in our country. I am a former Minister for Health. I believe very much in a health-led approach to addiction. I am pleased at some changes that were made there in recent years. However, we also have to get extraordinarily tough on the gangs, the drug dealers, pushers and people coming in and destroying communities and families. That is for the Garda and it is doing a lot of good work on it. I want to see more on that and more resources directed to it. I have had good conversations about it.

There is another piece we are not talking enough about, which is the growing acceptability of the so-called social use of drugs. There are people funding this gangland criminality through cocaine use. It is happening in all parts of Ireland and in all communities, rural and urban. We need to start calling it out and getting much tougher on it. We also need to start reminding people of the direct link between their actions on a Saturday night and gangland crime on a Monday. There is a direct correlation. Who do they think is funding the gangland criminals? I have a very supportive approach towards drug addicts. I am not talking about the health-led approach we need to take to addiction. I am talking about people going out, the perceived social use of drugs and, sometimes, their social acceptability. I want to see a renewed focus on that. Whatever comes of the citizens' assembly on drugs, and I think a lot of good can come from it, we must always remember the harmful impact of drugs on individuals and communities. It sounds to me like the Deputy has seen it in a very painful and vivid way in his constituency.

Deputy Daly raised the matter of the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) Bill 2022. It passed Second Stage in the Dáil on Thursday. The next step is that I am due to bring a report to Cabinet on the use of FRT with a view to publishing that as well. I hope to do that in the coming weeks. I am eager to move on this legislation. We need to get it passed, whatever else the Oireachtas and Government decide to do. We need to get the gardaí having bodycams later this year. I know the Deputy and I share that view. As the Deputy has said, the Garda Commissioner has said he intends to carry out a pilot use of the bodycams in the first instance later this year. He needs the legislation to pass to enable the pilot to take place.

I am going to park debating facial recognition technology until another day. I could go on quite a lot about it. I am sure these are some issues we can tease through. There are some genuine and sincere views that people hold on this. People have different views from me and I fully accept their views are sincere and deeply held. There is some misinformation, although not from the Deputy. I heard in the Dáil last week that we should wait for Europe and should not move ahead of Europe on facial recognition technology. I went off and checked what Europe was doing. We are a part of Europe, by the way. We are not just takers but help to make it. Europe is only looking at legislating for live FRT in the artificial intelligence, AI, Act. There is no proposal due to come from the EU on retrospective matters. On retrospective FRT, the European Data Protection Board last May published its guidelines as to how that should be used. There are legitimate debates to be had about both but there is a significant difference between retrospective and live use. I will tease these through and no doubt we will get to debate them in the Dáil.

On Killarney, the Deputy knows Garda deployment is rightly a matter for the Commissioner and not a political decision. I would hope and expect that, as Government funds the growth of Garda numbers, there is a keen focus on locations where there is an under-representation of gardaí and where there has been significant population growth, which Garda numbers need to grow to match. It sounds to me like Killarney is very much a town like that.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

Quite a number of us have visited Mountjoy Prison recently. We engaged with the governor and prisoners and played football against them, not very successfully I might add. It was a very constructive engagement and credit has to be given to Senator Lynn Ruane, who has been leading that discussion. I am not a member of this committee for very long but I understand that a lot of work has been done on the nature of prison life and the prison system in general. There are a significant number of people in our prison system who do not need to be there. We are spending a lot of money keeping people in prison who should not be there. The governor of Mountjoy impressed on us the absolute uselessness of having four-month sentences. People cannot engage in any of the programmes or positive prison life and it is just not working. I am thinking of the number of people within the prison system with mental health difficulties and addiction issues. We have more than 4,000 prisoners while 40 years ago we had about 1,000. The difference is the drugs issue, as the Minister said earlier. I commend the Government, in particular the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, on bringing forward the memo today on the citizens' assembly on drugs. Does the Minister feel this is money well spent when we have such a population within our prison system who are not benefiting from it and who do not need to be there? We should have a much smaller prison population in which prisoners are empowered and enhanced in their lives by their time in prison. We should not have people in there on short sentences with mental health and addiction issues, the vast majority of whom come from disadvantaged backgrounds. That is really serving no purpose whatsoever.

Deputy Martin Kenny

I reiterate what Deputy Ó Ríordáin has said. I met with Caron McCaffrey, the head of the Irish Prison Service, on this issue, along with her colleague Fergal Black. One of the issues that struck me was that the point of prison has to be to ensure we build a better society and people do not go back into the cycle of reoffending, going in and out of prison. That seems to be a pattern of a large segment of the people who are continually in the prison system. The issue in regard to community-type activity or community sentencing of some kind which does not involve a custodial sentence for minor crime is something that should be considered more. We need to make a combined effort to work on that and see how it can be resolved. We also have to think of the victims of crime. There are many people who are seriously hurt and injured and feel violated by things that have happened to them. They also want to ensure there is a system that protects society from these people continually reoffending. It is a challenge and I accept that.

The Prison Service is recruiting at the moment and it is not having the difficulties An Garda Síochána is having, thankfully. However, there are aspects of the service that are having difficulties, particularly in respect of the psychiatric services that often have to be provided for many people in prison. A large segment of the people who end up in prison commit crimes when they are in a psychotic state. They may have mental health issues or it may be because of addiction. These problems need to be dealt with while they are in prison. The evidence presented was that it is difficult to retain people in those services. It is difficult work. One of the changes that occurred in the hard years we had after the crash in the economy was that, whereas it used to be the case that anyone who worked in the Prison Service for 30 years got a pension entitlement and prison officers and most of the other staff retain that, and whereas that used to be the case for the likes of psychiatric nurses recruited to the prison service, they now have to work 40 years as if they were in the HSE or any other service. If that was brought back to the way it used to be, it would have a cost in regard to pensions but not directly in regard to salaries. I am told it would certainly assist in being able to recruit and retain people with the expertise they require. It is a real difficulty and I ask the Minister to consider how it could be looked at. It would make a big difference. Good work has been done, especially in working out systems for pre-release programmes and so on to get people ready to go back into society.

Post-release programmes need a whole change as to how they happen and work. In numerous cases people who have gone through programmes in prison, done quite well and, often, been able at least to change their behaviour to the extent that they are not triggered by the same things - they may have mental health issues or whatever - go back out into society and it is simply a matter of "open the gates and away they go". They often do not have a service or an after-service. We see that particularly in addiction services. There needs to be a real effort to ensure that that change can happen. The Probation Service has a big part to play in that, but the primary part has to be the preparation for the person to go back into the community. To get that right in prison is one of the key tasks required, but that will require staffing around the particular expertises I mentioned, particularly in psychiatric services, addiction services, etc.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Alan Farrell)

I have just a couple of comments. Then I will let Deputy Ó Ríordáin in.

On the point Deputy Kenny quite rightly made about support services, I am looking at these subheads. The budget for buildings and equipment is reduced by 5%, but prisoner services are marked here in the subhead I am looking at as having a budgetary reduction of 6.68%. Key to understanding why that is the case is to ask how many inmates there were in 2022 versus the number in 2023. That might give us some indication as to the reduction in demand for services, or is there another matter arising on which it would be worth the committee having further information?

The Revised Estimates refer to the recruitment of prison officers. You yourself touched on that, Minister. For the purposes of discussion and our consideration, could you inform the committee of the number of prison officers recruited?

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I know that education services come under the Department of Education, but still they are linked with prisons in that education in prisons goes on an academic timetable. Therefore, if you were to land in a prison in July or August, you would not be able to access education services until the new academic year. Is there a way of changing that?

Deputy Simon Harris

There were a lot of good questions there. I might stay with the technical ones first.

The reason the spend on buildings is down is simply due to the completion of Limerick prison. Those works are now finished. I asked the same thing of the prisoner support services because the spend on them is down. I wanted to check that that was not an issue we should be concerned about. It is a reduction in Covid-related funding. Obviously, quite rightly, temporary Covid funding went in and now has come out. I am happy to provide any further notes on that.

I will get the committee the latest recruitment and staffing levels and prisoner number levels from my colleague here. I am pleased - in fairness, Deputy Kenny has acknowledged this - that we are experiencing a good pattern of recruitment to the Irish Prison Service. I am excited about attending at the end of this month a graduation for prison officers at which 131 are due to graduate. It is a real testament to the Irish Prison Service and the stakeholders for the good work being done on recruitment. I commend the director general and others on that.

I have a table here detailing current levels of prison staffing. As of November 2022, which is the date for the most up-to-date figures we have, there were 3,494 people working in the Prison Service: 3,256 in what we call prison grades, 73.25 in non-prison grades, which are made up of doctors, chaplains and psychologists, and just over 164 headquarter staff - in other words, 3,256 prison-type staff, 73 in the non-prison grades, very important support staff and services, and 164 in headquarters. I am looking forward to the graduation ceremony for 131 new officers at the end of this month. I take Deputy Kenny's point, though, and he is right to make it. There are lies, damned lies and statistics. While I am not telling a lie, we do need to scratch the surface sometimes. I was in Cloverhill recently and met the team there. There is very good work going on, but there are specific areas within the Prison Service where we must do more and do better. I think it is largely around the issue of health. Nursing was an issue I came across. The committee has given me some ideas and suggestions, which I will reflect on. I have been talking to those in the Irish Prison Service and others about that. We have just over 4,400 prisoners within Irish prisons today.

As for the issue of penal reform and Deputy Ó Ríordáin's and Deputy Kenny's questions, I am very conscious that while I am currently the Minister for Justice, I am also the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, and the latter Department has responsibility for prison education.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

Aha.

Deputy Simon Harris

There we go. The Deputy has caught me.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

The Minister cannot say that education comes under a different Department.

Deputy Simon Harris

Fortunately, I cannot because it is an area I am truthfully passionate about, as, I must acknowledge, is the Minister of State, Deputy Browne. Long story short, it is my intention, while I hold these two Departments, to have a prison and education task force established. I have spoken to the director general of the Prison Service. It simply makes sense. Pretty much all the agencies involved are under my remit in one of either of the Departments. We want to involve the Department of Education and the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. I do not in any way wish to explain this to Deputy Ó Ríordáin because he knows it inside and out, but there is an issue about prisoner education and also an issue about the kids of prisoners and how to break the cycle. There is a very good project that I encountered virtually during Covid in Dillon's Cross, in Cork. That is an exceptional project, and we talk about it as an exceptional project because what they are doing there works. I want to know why we do not have more Dillon's Crosses, whereby not only do you look after the prisoner education, which is very important, but you also ask how we make sure the cycle of potential deprivation is broken for those whose mum or dad is in prison. There is good work going on on that. We will convene a prison education task force.

Deputy Kenny is right that that will involve issues around post-release. One of the key concerns I hear from educationalists and people in the ETBs - and there are some passionate and very good people working in prison education - is that at the end of a prison sentence somebody who has not completed a programme or has not yet completed training then re-emerges into society and - "falls off the wagon" might be a dismissive phrase, and I do not mean that in a flippant way, but often the completion of the education journey becomes complex. We need to look at how we can make sure that that transition is much smoother. There are some ideas in that regard. SOLAS, the ETBs, my Department at Secretary General level, the director general of the Prison Service, the Secretary General in the Department of Justice, the Minister of State, Deputy Browne, and I genuinely want to do a good piece of work. There was a very good piece of work done, as the committee will know, last year on mental health under the mental health task force and my colleague, the Minister, Deputy McEntee. We will look at replicating that. I am very happy to keep the committee briefed or to come before it, whatever works best in that regard.

My simple way of looking at the issue of penal reform is that there are some people in prison I think we would all prefer were not in prison. We would prefer they had been diverted elsewhere, be it mental health or other services. They may be people who have committed low-end offences, people from disadvantaged communities, people who, quite frankly, need societal help to break a very difficult cycle. There are also some people who are in prison and I think society would think they should have got longer sentences. I know that sentences are a matter for the Judiciary, and I respect that fact, but we are, let us be honest, all of us would be in favour of passing legislation in the House that will see increased maximum sentences for domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. There are therefore some areas where the Oireachtas, I believe, will this year expressly pass legislation that gives a view on the seriousness of some crimes and the wish for longer sentences to be available and considered by the Judiciary. When I talk about this I do not want to talk about it without acknowledging that. There are some areas of very serious crime, including assault causing harm, where I believe longer maximum sentences than are currently available should be available to the Judiciary. Some of that is in our zero-tolerance plan.

Separate and distinct from that, there is absolutely no doubt but that a big piece of work needs to be done on the whole area of penal reform. I am very committed to that. As Deputy Ó Ríordáin and the committee will know, we published the Review of Policy Options for Prison and Penal Reform 2022-2024. That tries to find a balance between ensuring that people who commit serious crimes receive punishment and a period of incarceration that is proportionate to that crime, and acknowledging that sometimes community-based sanctions can be more appropriate in diverting offenders from future criminal activity and breaking the cycle. As part of that review, there are priority actions that look at developing and expanding the range of community-based sanctions, including alternatives to imprisonment. As part of that, there is a commitment to build on the joint Prison Service and Probation Service strategy. I have had a couple of conversations already with colleagues in the Department about making it easier for a District Court judge or others in the Judiciary to have access at a quicker pace to things like training and apprenticeships particularly when they see a young person coming before them, where they want to try to make a positive impact on that person's life and change the course of his or her life. I am fully committed to penal reform, to alternatives to prison for low-end offences, particularly among young people, and to trying to tackle things like addiction.

I wish to make a very separate and distinct point about some serious crime in this country. I want to see more people reported, more people prosecuted and more people serving longer sentences.

Finally, I recently had an excellent meeting with the Inspector of Prisons, Mr. Mark Kelly. I am sure we would all acknowledge that he is a very qualified individual in terms of his background in human rights. He has just completed a very expansive whole prison inspection. I know that he is eager to do more and his office is very busy. I am eager to support him to do more. I am also open to expanding his role as we start to consider some of the legislative moves we will consider as part of the Commission on Future of Policing in Ireland and other things that fall from that. The education in prison task force will be the big piece of work, where I think we can begin to teach through a lot of this and I very much welcome engagement from colleagues.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Alan Farrell)

Can the Minister inform me, to the best of his knowledge, whether Thornton Hall is owned by his Department?

Deputy Simon Harris

Yes.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Alan Farrell)

Does his Department own it rather than the OPW?

Deputy Simon Harris

I understand that we do own it and we have made a portion available. I should say that this issue arises from time to time. We have made it clear to colleagues in the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, who are doing an extraordinary job in appallingly difficult circumstances, that part of the site could be available, if deemed suitable, for Ukrainian and international protection purposes.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Is it possible to make some Garda stations that were closed available for the same purpose?

Deputy Simon Harris

I am not passing the buck when I say that a lot of the Garda stations infrastructure is owned by the OPW. There is an awareness and a knowledge across the OPW and the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth about the availability of stock. To be very clear, our sector will not, and should not, be found wanting in any way in making available anything and everything we have available. There are issues around suitability and the determination of that by the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.

Deputy Martin Kenny

The Minister has mentioned that there are just over 4,400 prisoners in Irish prisons, which means that in some cases there are three persons in each cell. Overcrowding is a real issue. Overcrowding has an impact on the mental health of prisoners and on prison staff who must deal with the results of a highly stressed environment. I do not advocate that we build more space and we should not be a society that wants to lock people up but we must find a solution. We must find a system where people are not sent to jail for minor offences thus imposing a huge cost on the State, etc. and get to grips with overcrowding.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I welcome the prison education task force alluded to by the Minister. The task force can do fantastic work, particularly when in a position of overseeing two Departments. The Minister mentioned the children of prisoners and made a very good point. There is a gender dimension to this issue. As the Minister will know, it is suggested that women, particularly if they are mothers, are more profoundly affected by prison life than men. As I am sure the Acting Chairman will agree, this committee will give the Minister any support that we can in that endeavour.

Deputy Simon Harris

I appreciate that and we will take up the offer. The prison population remains overwhelmingly male. We have a male to female prisoner ratio of 30:1. The number of female prisoners was as low as 66 in 2008 but in recent years the number has generally ranged between 100 and 120 so the Deputy is right to raise the issue of gender.

I will state some other figures that may be of interest to the committee when discussing penal reform. The average cost of an available staffed prison space in 2021 was €80,335 while the average cost of a probation placement in 2020 was around €5,712. On prison capacity, and I do not mean to be disagreeable when I say this, I believe we must have reform and capacity, and I have had a robust conversation about this in recent days.

I agree with Deputy Kenny in that I do not think we want to be a country that sees increased incarceration. That is not the policy direction of the Department nor is it mine. There is a small number of areas of serious crime where I do believe longer prison sentences, and the legislative basis for such, is required and I am very clear on that. I refer to assaults, sexual crimes, gender-based crimes and crimes against children. There are areas where society wants to know that the Judiciary has at its disposal more robust sentencing. The overall policy direction is not to increase the incarceration rate in Ireland. I am very convinced of this fact, even allowing for penal reform.

On that point I made about not seeking overall increased incarceration rates, I do think with the huge growth in population, and the point on humanitarian conditions in prison, there is an argument for some prison capacity. My genuine view is that we need both approaches. We will very shortly have some extra prison capacity with a wing in Limerick Prison, which I recall from memory will give about 90 additional places, and the new women's prison in Limerick. There is the possibility of doing more in other places and I know that Cloverhill Prison has an idea about an additional wing.

The Deputy is correct. Some of our prisons are significantly overcrowded so there is the humanitarian piece around having modern, safe prisons and there is the population piece. We need penal reform but there is some additional capacity required. I have asked the Department of Justice to draw up a capacity plan that answers the question as to what we expect the prison population to be in our country in the future while taking into consideration population growth and penal reform, and then what additional capacity we would need to get us to that point. As the Deputy will know from his meeting with the director general, most of our prisons are meant to operate at a capacity of 90% or less and many of them are over that capacity.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Alan Farrell)

We will now discuss Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised).

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

We need more judges, which the Minister alluded to in his presentation. The Circuit Courts are totally under-served, particularly for family law court cases. As the Minister can appreciate, family law cases are particularly emotional, difficult and children are involved. The elongation of that process is torture, unfair and damaging for the individuals involved. The appointment of judges is not a popular issue and has been politicised in the past but there is no other solution. In order to expedite many of the cases in the Circuit Courts we will need more judges so we must appoint some. There have been discussions on the process of appointment. There have been long Oireachtas debates on changing the manner in which appointments are made and taking the politics out of the process. That is fine but what happens in many cases, particularly in family law cases, is that couples are having protracted battles in court and protracted court cases so children are affected. In addition, costs are exorbitant because of the elongated nature of cases. The only solution is to appoint more judges to the Circuit Courts.

Deputy Martin Kenny

The Minister has mentioned judges and how a report was due to arrive on his desk.

Deputy Simon Harris

I have the report.

Deputy Martin Kenny

I hope that the report tells him what everybody has told us. Everybody, including members of the Judiciary, the legal profession and the Courts Service, have told us that there is a crisis situation in all of the court systems, and particularly an acute situation in family law in the District Courts and Circuit Courts. That situation is primarily due to not having enough judges to deal with the volume of cases before the courts. In some situations, depending on where you are in the country, the situation is particularly worrying in cases where there is domestic violence or domestic abuse. I know that interim orders can be obtained but to get a proper day in court people must wait a very long time in some parts of the country, which is an issue that must be addressed quickly, efficiently and effectively.

In some places there are issues with how court services are organised. I mean some things do not work as well as they possibly could. As has been mentioned, sometimes we can find a particular project and point it out as being best practice, and people ask why can something not be done equally well as in other situations. I think the same can be said about the Courts Service as things are done really well in some places but not so well in others so I ask for this matter to be examined.

The Family Courts Bill is in train and I hope that the new family courts in Dublin will be up and running soon. I would like an update on this matter.

Deputy Pa Daly

Following on from the comments about judges, the Joint Committee on Justice received a visit from Vice-President Vra Jourová of the European Commission last October. According to a Commission report, the number of judges per inhabitant in Ireland remained the lowest in the EU at 3.3 judges per 100,000 inhabitants compared with 17 per 100,000 across the EU. The report stated that, while the additional five judges were welcome, the number was still insufficient. Is the report on the Minister's desk from the judicial planning work group?

Deputy Simon Harris

Yes.

Deputy Pa Daly

If someone today wanted a trial date in the Circuit Criminal Court in Dublin, he or she would get one in 2025. The waiting period in Dundalk is also bad. In Kerry, someone would be waiting for longer than two years to get a trial date. Of course, that might differ in circumstances where a child is involved, for example. Someone would be waiting 15 to 18 months in the Central Criminal Court unless young children were involved. In recent years, we have heard a great deal about delays in judicial reviews of planning issues. The judicial review list is still slow, with people waiting 12 months for a hearing date. They have to wait a number of months more for decisions because the judges writing the judgments are in court all the time. If we are trying to protect communities and support victims, having people waiting so long for trial dates is unacceptable. Will the increase in the number of judges have any impact on this? It is a major problem around the country.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Alan Farrell)

I agree with Deputy Daly. Is there a benchmark that the Department uses for judicial numbers? Deputy Daly referenced some comparisons with our European partners. Are those taken into consideration?

I wish to focus on the €2.5 million for future-proofing judicial supports that the Minister mentioned in his contribution. Notwithstanding future recruitment plans, is this funding being provided with a view to speeding up the Judiciary in doing its job? Will the funding be ongoing in order to try to streamline back office processes so that there is less of a delay on the decisions and judgments side of the service the Judiciary provides us?

Deputy Simon Harris

I am encouraged to hear there is unanimous recognition of the need for more judges. We need a mature discussion on this matter. With the greatest of respect to members of the Judiciary, who work hard, this is not about judges, but about ensuring that everyone in our country can access justice in a speedier manner. There is plenty of empirical evidence that we do not have enough judges. As night follows day, this leads to delays. The Chair is right, in that this is not to say that the modernisation and reform agenda is not an important part of the conversation – it is a very important part of it – but even if we implemented it all, we would not get away from the fact that we did not have enough judges to deliver on objectives that the Houses set as priority areas.

Deputies Ó Ríordáin, Kenny and Daly raised the issue of family courts. The families in question are in a vulnerable, difficult and stressful time of their lives and are looking to resolve or progress sensitive and important issues, yet they are facing delays. I am proud that we are progressing the Family Courts Bill. I was heartened by its Second Stage debate in the Seanad last week. We are going to set up a family High Court, a family Circuit Court and a family District Court so that there will be a different and child-centred approach to family law, not only in a physical sense in terms of infrastructure and how people go in and out of court, but also in an actual sense. Specialist judges will work in our family courts. The Bill passed Second Stage in the Seanad last week. There is political consensus on getting it passed by the Houses as quickly as possible and having the family court structure in place.

Regarding immigration, people ask me why there are such long backlogs in decision making at certain times. We will get to that Vote, and while we must make progress on the IPO and so on, we must also recognise that people have a right to access court and do access court. We need to resource the courts in that regard.

The Government wishes to, and will, see the establishment of an environmental planning division in the High Court to ensure that planning and environmental decisions can be addressed through our judicial system more quickly. A greater volume of work is going through the courts than they would have been used to previously.

A commencement order has been signed in respect of the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Act. From the end of this week, it will bring a new and welcome body of work to the Circuit Court, which is a matter that Deputy Ó Ríordáin highlighted. There is a Government decision to assign three additional judges to the Circuit Court to reflect that body of work, and I will move through that process in the normal way in the coming weeks.

Ms Brigid McManus, formerly Secretary General of what was then the Department of Education and Skills as well as the holder of other roles in the public service, was chosen to chair the judicial planning group. It is not that I am avoiding the Acting Chairman's question, but the group was tasked with analysing and coming up with answers to his question about how many judges Ireland should have, what level we needed to reach and what the landscape looked like now and into the future. I only received the report in the past couple of weeks, but it is my intention to move on it with haste and enthusiasm. It is a good piece of work. I intend to bring it to the Cabinet shortly and, subject to Cabinet agreement, I hope to act on it. Watch this space.

The issue of support staff, which the Acting Chairman rightly highlighted, is an important one. In fairness to my colleague, the Minister, Deputy McEntee, we received a significant allocation in the budget for support staff. The judge is an essential piece of the jigsaw of public infrastructure, but so, too, are the support structures around the judge. My Department already has funding in place for the support staff required for an increase in numbers in the Judiciary. As committee members will know, judicial pay is dealt with from the centre. We come to this discussion at Government level having already secured quite a deal of funding for support staff structures. The judge is an important piece of the jigsaw, but so is the efficient administration of the courts.

Deputy Pa Daly

I wish to ask a supplementary question. It would be wrong of me to let this opportunity go without mentioning the decision taken recently by Kerry County Council to give a portion of ground to the Courts Service for the construction of a new courthouse. Notwithstanding that the decision was taken by a full vote of Kerry County Council, it would be a mistake to move the existing court services from the building in which they have been housed for nearly 180 years to another side of the town. The Minister might say that the Courts Service acts independently and he has no role in the matter, but perhaps he might take a fresh look at the decision. There is the potential to use empty buildings in the town centre. In light of the Government's Town Centre First policy, it would be a serious mistake for the future of Tralee town centre to leave those buildings when there is no alternative plan. We could have a court complex, including a family law court, across the road in the old Kerry Protestant Hall while we used the space available within the existing court structure to improve court services.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Alan Farrell)

Deputy Smyth firmly opened up the door on local issues and Deputy Daly has run through it.

Deputy Simon Harris

I am delighted. I came here with a note on Tralee specifically because I thought that Deputy Daly might raise the issue.

Deputy Pa Daly

Am I that predictable?

Deputy Simon Harris

It may not be the answer the Deputy wishes, unfortunately. It is true to say that the Courts Service is independent in these matters. However, I will relay the Deputy's view to it. For the benefit of the record, my note tells me that the provision of new court facilities in Tralee is one of the Courts Service's projects identified in the national development plan, as the Deputy knows. As a county town, a courthouse with four courtrooms and related facilities is envisaged to meet current and future demand in Tralee. In the view of the Courts Service, this will require a building that is significantly larger than the existing courthouse on Ashe Street, which comprises two courtrooms and lacks the facilities expected of a modern court building. I am told by the Courts Service that the current site is constrained and that it would not be possible to refurbish the courthouse within its boundaries to provide a building on the scale envisaged.

The Island of Geese site, which is a town centre site in council ownership, is the preferred option. I believe it has been assessed by the OPW's architectural services as being suitable for a courthouse building.

As the Deputy has correctly said, Kerry County Council has approved the sale of the site to the service and conveyancing is under way. Excepting the point made by the Deputy, I just wanted to share with the Deputy the note from the Courts Service. I will feed back the Deputy's views to the Courts Service.

Deputy Pa Daly

Of course, but I disagree on the point that was raised that one cannot put four courtrooms in the existing building. There is so much empty space within the current structure that it would be easy to put two if not three additional courtrooms in the building. For a lot of reasons, including the carbon footprint of constructing a new building, it would be within the overall common good of the town centre not to leave. There are still no plans to do anything with it when they vacate and the Courts Service leaves the existing building. No plan whatsoever has been put forward by any council official or by the Courts Service, apart from a promise that they will keep a roof on the structure.

Deputy Simon Harris

From the Government's perspective and from the Department's perspective, we are very eager to see new and expanded court facilities in Tralee. This is why it was identified as one of the priority projects in the national development plan. I believe the Deputy is also very clear that there is no debate around the need for an expanded court presence and service in Tralee. There clearly is a difference of view in relation to the work of the local authority, the Office of Public Works, the Courts Service, and perhaps some local views. I will certainly feed this back to the Courts Service now as they engage with local representatives.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Alan Farrell)

We shall now move on to Vote 24 - Justice.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

Unfortunately I must leave the meeting after this contribution. On international protection, I was disappointed with the Minister's comments last weekend on deportation. What we are witnessing around the country is people standing outside centres saying "Burn them out". Black kids are getting abuse at bus stops. There are people in my constituency who work in Beaumont Hospital and who are afraid to go home. There is a rise in incidents of racial tension and racial abuse. There are accusations that women and children are not safe because migrants are coming into an area. There are videos of buses at Santry Park which are purported to be full of migrants going to different parts of the country. There are bizarre reports of attacks on women at Howth Junction DART station, purported to be done by migrants in recent times even though it happened three years ago.

Does the Minister not feel that at this point we need a Covid-style response by the Government to such misinformation? During the Covid pandemic when the Government was at the forefront of that information campaign, we flooded the airwaves and were able to tell everybody what it was, how to protect oneself, and what it was not. Public representatives were involved in giving people solid information. The anti-vaccine and anti-mask movement really did not get as much of a hold as it possibly could have. There is, however, a massive information vacuum from the Minister's Department and from other Departments that work in this area around telling people exactly what international protection is, what the nature of the accommodation is, and the statistics around crime and housing and so on. If such information were provided in a positive way, it could dispel all of these myths being put forward.

I do not want to live in a city that I do not recognise anymore. I grew up in a country where we could go all over the world and nobody wanted to come here. Now people are here because they want to come here and it is an attractive place to come. It is a free country. It has changed so much in my lifetime. All members here have family all over the world. When I ask schoolchildren if they watched the World Cup final, and they said that they did, I ask them if they saw the guy playing for Argentina with the Irish name. Is that not mad? We are everywhere. The audacity of Irish people to suggest that somebody else is not welcome here, or wherever, regardless of the fact that we have a robust process, suggests that we are in a massively dangerous moment, particularly in light of what is being shouted at people, what has been said to people and the atmosphere that is being created. There are children at these protests and children chanting things outside these centres where people live. Children are chanting these things.

It is not good enough for the Government to talk about deportations because it says to people that they are kind of right that a lot or some of these people are bogus. When the Taoiseach does something similar, other voices say other things. We need to have within the Vote, using the money being proposed here, a robust information campaign. If a kid is afraid to sit at a bus stop because of the colour of his or her skin and due to the atmosphere that is being created, that is an appalling vista which I do not recognise as being Irish. This was what we used to think happened elsewhere, but now it is here and it is real. What am I to say to someone of a migrant background who works all day at Beaumont Hospital - who worked all the way through the pandemic and is already working in a stressful situation - when he or she does not want to walk home?

The point is that this is a crossroads in Irish society. I apologise to the Acting Chairman as I know I am taking up a longer amount of time. The only other time I have come across this before was during the citizenship referendum in 2004. It was poisonous. It was dirt poisonous. Things were allowed to be said and lies were allowed to propagate. It was just wrong. It happened in the teeth of a local and European election. Now it is back, 20 years later. I am more worried about this than I have been about a lot of other things in the past. Will the Minister please give me some comfort that the information flow from the Government is going to be huge, that the calling out of racism is going to be huge, and that the Government will be all over this festering poison, which is taking root and going mainstream? My time with the Department of Justice was brief enough, but the unsympathetic view from some within the Department at that time was "the more you do that, the more you will get". The view then was that we needed to make sure we did not have a pull factor. I hope it has changed. I know there is a new Department dealing with it. I have made my points, and I thank the Acting Chairman.

Deputy Martin Kenny

I want to go through a couple of things in the Department of Justice Vote, specifically the issue of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence and the commitment from the Department to establish how it will look after that, deal with it and work to propagate and provide a service for those who are in the most dire situations. It almost goes back to the Courts Service part of the Vote because they are linked. Could it be possible for there to be some mechanism for people who are in really stressful situations? I have spoken to people about this. One particular woman, who was in a controlling and terrible situation for many years, had the courage to come out of that. She was physically abused as well. It was mainly about the whole coercive control aspect of her life, which dominated her life. When she came out of that situation, she went to a solicitor to look to progress things and move things on. She came up against a barrier whereby she could not get hearings in the courts. She finds the system so difficult to deal with. There are huge delays in that regard. It is getting better and more people are coming forward, and we need to encourage them to do that, but when they come forward they find that the system is not there to accept them, work with them and progress their situation. In a sense, it is almost a retraumatising of that person, who feels that they are not believed. As part of dealing with domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, there must be a system in place to assure people who come forward in these circumstances they will be dealt with efficiently by the Courts Service to get their cases heard. This is my first point.

On the youth justice programme, I welcome the additional provision of funds and the setting up of more youth diversion projects around the country. All of this is progress. The success of these projects is something that we all recognise and understand but there is not nearly enough of them. It is not enough and I believe the fund we are putting into it needs to be doubled. I am aware that finding staff to do that kind of work is another issue. We spoke earlier about the Prison Service and overcrowding. If we got this programme right, it would resolve the other problem down the line where we end up with so many people in our prisons.

That issue needs to be dealt with as well.

I have one other point. I know there was a slight disagreement when I said we do not want to have a country in which we see more people locked up. It was said that because of our expanded population, we may need more prison services. I would say we do not need more prison services. What we need is more secure psychiatric services and spaces because an awful lot of the people who end up in prison should not be there at all. They should be in a secure psychiatric space. That needs to be looked at.

In regard to the Legal Aid Board, the rates paid need to be reviewed because it is an issue that is brought up on many occasions.

On Deputy Ó Ríordáin's point in regard to the temporary protection directives and the work done in respect of international protection applicants, many people do not understand that when somebody comes here and claims international protection, they are legally entitled to get fair hearing of their case. If they feel their case was not heard fairly, they are entitled to seek a review. They are entitled to appeal and to get legal aid to do that and for all those things happen. That means that it can take much longer than we expect. I am conscious of that. While I agree in one sense with the Deputy's view that we need to see these processes sped up, they should not be sped up at the expense of the person getting justice. We need to be careful in respect of that.

Coming to the issue of racism, all these attacks and so on - and Deputy Ó Ríordáin mentioned National Public Health Emergency Team, NPHET, and Covid-19 - the same people who were shouting at people going into injection centres are the same people who are now roaring and shouting outside direct provision centres. They are the same people leading this charge. There are people in the community who have, for many good reasons, issues with the Government around not providing enough housing, around the health service or perhaps around employment, schools or whatever. They find there is huge competition for resources and see more people coming in which intensifies that competition for those same scarce resources and they have issues around that. Those people are being led the wrong way by extremely manipulative people who are setting out a very narrow, horrible agenda of hate and fear. That is what they are trying to build up. We have an obligation to all work together. We have our disagreements across the Chamber about politics and about what the Government is failing to do, although it tells us it is doing its best, but at the same time we all have to recognise we must have a society which is better than that. We need to work together to ensure we provide the proper, clear information to people and an understanding as to how and why people are in this country, what they are seeking, what their rights and entitlements are, and how we can progress this situation forward.

We cannot have a situation where this country falls into having those kinds of national front-type marches which we have seen in other countries and the horribleness of that. I think of the Ku Klux Klan. We have so many of these types of groups in different parts of the world that we look down on as being terrible and horrible and yet we see them starting to grow here. Those weeds of fascism have to be stamped out. I take issue with some of the Taoiseach's remarks today that the far left is as bad as the far right. That is nonsense and needs to be clearly stated. People who are standing up against fascism have a right to do so but fascism has no right. We need to all be united in our clarity around that.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Alan Farrell)

I thank the Deputy. As to my own thoughts on the justice Vote, obviously, I am very pleased to see not only the funding but the emphasis put on the domestic violence sector and the gender-based violence strategy. Does the Department envisage legislation to enable the creation of an agency and when is that expected? I am aware of the funding is there.

I very much welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Browne's work on the justice strategy. It is really encouraging to see that. There are some indications the trickle effect of funding like that might not necessarily be getting to every community but certainly the increase in the youth diversionary projects and the significance of their funding is obviously extremely important.

I would point out, because it is inter-related to garda numbers and community garda numbers, and I am sure my colleagues could probably highlight one or two cases in their constituencies, the specialisation and professionalisation into specialities within An Garda Síochána, which is very encouraging, has led to a knock-on effect when it comes to the ability of the local chief superintendent to allocate resources on the ground, particularly in local stations. That can have a net impact. I am flagging that now because will be worth talking about it at a later stage with the Commissioner, in that it has an impact and unfortunately prevents other things from happening in terms of youth diversionary strategy programmes. That, in and of itself, is something we are trying to undo and get to the bottom of.

Deputy Daly quite rightly pointed out the legal aid rates. I remember having a conversation in 2017 with a bunch of barristers. I do not know what a collection of barristers is referred to as.

Deputy Pa Daly

A shower.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Alan Farrell)

They were working in the criminal area in the Criminal Courts of Justice, CCJ. I got talking to one particular barrister who was awaiting a case for mention. It would have been a matter of asking what was being done next in the case and it would have taken two or three minutes. The rate for that for this barrister, who I did not know, was €29 but that person was there for the entire day. When one looks at it like that in the round, that is just nuts. What is the rate per hour? What is the minimum wage now? It is €11.30 per hour. There are things we need to review in that regard. It goes to the judicial discussion we had earlier about the ability of the courts to respond appropriately.

On the Criminal Assets Bureau, CAB, as a matter of interest, what did it raise in 2022? I was looking for the figure in the briefing information but I did not see it. I used to always ask that question in previous Dáileanna.

On international protection, which is the matter most Deputies have referred to, obviously, there is not a soul in the House, or I would like to think there is not one, who would not condemn the behaviour of racists across this country. I cannot imagine there is a region that has been left untouched by protests in some way, shape or form. It is disgraceful and is not reflective of the vast majority of the public who want to welcome refugees and recognise why they are coming here in the first instance. It is, to my mind, disgraceful. The International Protection Office and its processes, and the process in general, is not without its flaws. I know that, the members know that, and everybody in this room knows that. There are difficulties with the processing time and with the endless appeals that go on. Obviously, there are difficulties with accommodation because there has been a 400% year-on-year increase in numbers. There are difficulties, in tandem with the war in Ukraine and the efforts of Departments, including the Minister's, try to accommodate as many people as possible. I am heartened by the Minister's remarks on the Thornton Hall site. It was the very first thing I thought of when conversations started about whether we were going to be able to accommodate everybody. There are not really any structures there, as the Minister knows, but at least it has services in the sense that it has a road and, as far as I know, waste and water infrastructure. Obviously, it would take significant investment if it was to be looked at. However, we own it. It was worth €300,000 when the State paid €30 million for it, so we might as well do something with it. It is concerning to me, and I am sure to other members, that it has sat there for 15 or 20 years, and not very much has happened to it. Perhaps a conversation between the Minister and the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth would be worthwhile in relation to tasking it and specifying a purpose for the site and then making it known to the public.

I will conclude my remarks. I appreciate it may not be under this budget, but can the Minister touch on the International Protection Office and its role in liaising with our airports? This goes specifically to the number of individuals arriving who have, I believe, failed to produce documentation. The number I saw published was approximately 5,000 which is hugely concerning.

I appreciate that there are reasons for that which involve criminality or criminal groups, but not always. Will the Minister give a brief overview of that before we move on to the next Vote?

Deputy Pa Daly

I have a question arising out of what the Minister said. He reported the 13,600 applications to the International Protection Office and there is additional funding, which includes €9 million for the appeals tribunal. Obviously, there are other programmes and I welcome the announcement today about the golden visa programme being shut down. On a breakdown of the figures on where people are coming from, a large number come from Georgia. I think it was 2,300 out of the 13,000, according to a reply to a parliamentary question last year. Does the Department meet the ambassadors from some of these countries? What discussions take place about visa programmes? Perhaps the Minister has not had the chance to get his head around that yet and he may come back to me at a later stage.

Deputy Simon Harris

I thank the Deputy. I am grateful to have an opportunity to discuss this. To be clear, immigration is a good thing. Immigration is a thing our country needs. We are a stronger, better country as a result of immigration, whether that is in our public services, the private sector, the education system with students coming in, or in our communities. Diversity and inclusion are core parts of being Irish. That is the Ireland I know. This is a Department and this is a Government that delivered an undocumented scheme, which was widely welcomed, providing a legal pathway to people who were here and were undocumented for many years. This is a Government - Deputy Ó Ríordáin was a part of it at the time, that brought in citizenship ceremonies. It went from somebody sitting down the back of the District Court with somebody up for some anti-social behaviour matter and thinking they might get called up to the judge to get a piece of paper, to a proper citizenship ceremony now. I look forward to one of them again in March, I think. This a country which, and I think the world has really let down Afghanistan, when other countries did not step up to the plate, put in place an Afghan admission programme. It is the policy of the Government and the Department of Justice and, I believe, the express wish of the overwhelming majority of the people's representatives in both Houses of the Oireachtas, to support people fleeing persecution and to provide people with shelter and safety here. There is no doubt about that. I refuse to call some of what we have seen in recent weeks on some occasions protests. It irks me when they are called protests because some of what we have seen has been thuggish, mobbish and intimidatory behaviour. When you are standing outside what is somebody's home or shelter, including children, and shouting, "Get them out", and worse, that is not protest in my view or in the view of any decent person of sound mind.

As Minister for Justice, I am beyond aware and acutely attuned to some of the individuals behind these protests and some people who move from town to town and county to county trying to stoke up division and fear. There is a world of difference between somebody in a local community seeking information, and better information, from Government - which I will get to in a moment - with that of thuggish, far-right behaviour. The two should never be conflated and I do not think anyone here did. There is no place for it. It is that which motivates me to push back against the lies and misinformation of the far-right in relation to our rules-based migration system. I am duty-bound, as Minister for Justice, to administer our rules-based system. I am not going to sit quietly at home staring at the wall when I see people on social media and other places saying, "Sure there are no deportation orders in Ireland, that never happens in Ireland. We do not fingerprint anyone coming into the country. There is no discussion with the airlines". I am going to do what any responsible centrist politician should do in this country and not allow a vacuum to appear.

We have a rules-based system and a fair, compassionate system. We have managed, as a country, to welcome many more and shelter more than 70,000 people, which was quite a phenomenal national effort. It has not been without challenge. It is important and I genuinely feel duty-bound as Minister for Justice to explain to the Irish people that what the far-right tells them is a load of baloney and is put out there to cause fear. There are deportation orders in every country in the world that operates a migration system. They are in place and they are happening. There are discussions with airlines and checks regarding documents. There can be reasons why people come without documents; the Taliban is not giving out passports, not to be too flippant. There are reasons. There are also legal obligations to have documents when getting on airlines and not everyone is coming from a country that is not giving out documents.

We need to have a balanced approach. I am not suggesting the Deputy did, but I would ask that nobody suggests that a Department of Justice and Minister for Justice outlining and assuring people that there are processes and safeguards in place is a bad thing to do. If I do not do it and we just walk off the pitch, we will allow - we will not name them but we know their names - a small handful of individuals who will decide to misinform the Irish people instead. That was my motivation.

We have a fair, compassionate, rules-based system. I did not hear the Deputy criticise this at all, but I have heard some criticism about the speeding up of the system. I think it was Deputy Kenny who asked me to give an assurance on this, which is valid. I have heard the UNHCR talk about how accelerated processes and more efficient systems can be a good thing. I have heard migrants' rights groups, including one woman from Deputy Daly's constituency on Virgin Media, talking about how it is in the interest of somebody fleeing persecution and their family to have that certainty. We are trying to get to a system where people get quicker decisions. That is in everybody's interest. We are massively ramping up. Deputy Farrell is right, we need to do a lot more to get the IPO where it needs to go. It made more decisions last year than the Catherine Day report recommended it would need to make. I thank the men and women working in the IPO for their diligence. They are getting a lot more colleagues now; they have seen a 55% increase in their staffing since 2019, the last comparable year. I heard assertions about International Protection Appeals Tribunal, IPAT, staffing being down by 8%; that is a reduction, I think, of singular-digit numbers of administrative staff. My Secretary General met IPAT last week. IPAT has capacity within its current staffing to do 2,300 cases; they have 850 on hand. There will not be a constraint on resourcing the IPO, IPAT or staffing; certainly not a financial one. We will do everything we possibly can to properly staff that. We will not take any shortcuts or cut any corners, to Deputy Kenny's point, in terms of people's human rights. They will have the same rights and processes as anybody else, it will just be done in a more time-efficient manner.

On the information flow, I agree with the Deputy's party leader. I heard Deputy Bacik at the weekend talking about the need for a mechanism - I do not wish to speak for Deputy Bacik - I thought I heard her say there was a need for a mechanism where Government and Opposition work more closely to be able to get information out there. I do not profess to be all-knowing in relation to this. Exactly how that works, whether it is caucuses, committees, or whatever is above my pay grade. I do not think there is a political party in Dáil Éireann that buys into or subscribes - certainly not a party anyway - to the views of that small number of people engaging in thuggish, mobbish behaviour. The more we can come together to provide information, to give each other information and have a flow of information is a good thing. In fairness to colleagues across Government, we have all been responding in an emergency situation where things are fast-moving and fast-evolving. I also accept we have to get beyond saying that and must get a structure in place that provides better information to colleagues so they can then provide it to the public. I know this is getting a lot of attention and focus in Government as to how best to do that. It is important that political parties stay united and unified in calling out the misinformation of the far-right. A part of that - we may agree or disagree - is that we have a rules-based system and pushing back on any assertion that we do not. At the end of the day, that is my specific job within Government; others have others.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

There is a leaflet going around in parts of Dublin saying that girls are not to go out after 6 p.m. It says "Rialtas na hÉireann" at the bottom of it, misspelt. There are activists within my constituency who are trying to counter that sort of stuff with fact-based information leaflets going around. There are no leaflets from the Government currently. Is there one planned?

I refer to the type of campaign that was done during the Covid pandemic because this is what we are up against.

Deputy Simon Harris

I do not want to get into a discussion about ongoing Garda operations but I will say that everybody in this country has a right to be safe. That applies to people ordinarily residing in the State and to people fleeing persecution who are in our country seeking protection. Every single person has a right to be safe and to feel safe. I have spoken directly to the Garda Commissioner and he very much shares that view.

I am very proud of the role the Garda is playing in very difficult circumstances. There have been a small number of high-profile incidents in which we have seen the Garda act. It has acted with the seriousness the situation required. Garda intelligence and Garda work is under way and ongoing, for which I thank the force. I have seen the pictures on social media and elsewhere showing the efforts to intimidate members of the Garda. I will follow up on the Deputy’s question as to whether there is a leaflet for distribution. I do not mean to be flippant in saying that. I take his point, which is a serious and valid one that is sincerely made. I understand the Oireachtas is considering a number of measures at the moment, such as caucuses and other ways in which we can advance information.

I agree with Deputy Kenny that there can be a little bit of an attitude in this country such that we look to other countries and say, “God almighty, look at what is happening over there." It is as though we think we are immune to that sort of thing. We are not immune to extremism in this country. It is important that democratic institutions stay united in pushing back against those who attempt to undermine our democracy.

The Acting Chairman spoke about domestic, sexual and gender-based violence and the agency that is to be established. It is my intention to bring the relevant draft legislation to the Cabinet soon, possibly by the end of this month and certainly by the beginning of March. That draft Bill will then go to this committee for pre-legislative scrutiny. We had a stakeholders' workshop last week, not on the legislation but on how we might co-design an agency. It was a very good engagement. Drawing up the legislation is the next stage.

It is important when we talk about the changes and improvements that are needed to deal with domestic, sexual and gender-based violence that we couple such efforts with sending out a clear message about the help that is available. I say to anybody watching these proceedings today who is in immediate danger that he or she should call 999 or go to stillhere.ie, where there is lots of information. Within every Garda division in the country, there is now a specialist protective unit. Specialist training has taken place in every division. No matter what part of the country people live in, whether rural or urban, there will be a garda and a Garda unit ready to support them. There will be a garda who know what to do to help them. I would hate anybody to delay coming forward in the view that the Government will change something at some point in the future. Help is already available.

I agree with the Acting Chairman that we need more youth diversion programmes. My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy James Browne, is working extremely hard and doing excellent work on the youth justice strategy. I will feed the Acting Chairman's points back to him. He has an increased budget in that area this year.

On the Criminal Assets Bureau, we only have the 2021 figures until such time as the 2022 report comes to the Government and is published. The 2021 figures show that CAB seized more than €3 million in assets and oversaw the return of more than €5 million to the Exchequer in the course of that year. We intend to review the CAB legislation. It needs to be done. CAB has been extraordinarily successful but we need to enhance the level at which it can intervene and help with some of the timelines. I will be coming back on that issue.

Deputy Kenny and the Acting Chairman asked about the Legal Aid Board. This is an issue on which we are engaging with our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. The Deputies will be aware there is work being done on the issue of legal aid. I take the point about rates, which is something on which we are engaging.

The Acting Chairman is right in his point about community gardaí. Our specialist units are extraordinarily important in dealing with some of the issues we have discussed. Whether it is the Garda National Immigration Bureau or the work around sexual violence, human trafficking, drugs and so on, lots of the issues require specialist units. The skills that can be developed by members of An Garda Síochána working in a specialist area help to keep us safe. However, we also need community gardaí. It is about providing for both. We have to be able to do more than one thing at a time, which is a view the Garda Commissioner shares. We are bringing forward a community policing model. The Minister, Deputy McEntee, has been clear that we want to get to a point such that no matter where in Ireland people live, they will know the name, telephone number and email address of their community garda. As we expand the number of sworn members of An Garda Síochána, we will get to that point. I expect to get there in the course of 2024.

Deputy Daly asked about meetings and engagements with ambassadors. That certainly does happen. While I personally have not met the Georgian ambassador on the particular matter the Deputy raised, officials in my Department have done so. There is ongoing engagement with ambassadors and with airline management. Departmental officials met representatives of all the main airline carriers as recently as two weeks ago. That engagement is ongoing and is a key continuing part of our work.

The Deputy made an interesting point about visas. I should have said more about this in my earlier comment. We want to ensure people can find the appropriate door, so to speak, if they are considering coming to Ireland. For some, that might be international protection, which applies when people are fleeing persecution. Alongside that, and speaking with my education and apprenticeship hat on, we have huge labour market shortages. We need some 50,000 more people to work in construction if we are to meet our retrofitting and housing targets. In any information campaign, it is about pointing out to people the appropriate and legal ways to come to Ireland. However, there must be a rules-based approach if somebody comes here in a way that is not in compliance with the law. International protection is for people fleeing persecution. Its purpose is specific and clear. However, there are other ways of coming to Ireland. More than 40,000 work permits were introduced last year. We should continue to have conversations about the skill sets we need in the people who come to our country to help with labour force needs.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Alan Farrell)

I thank the Minister. We will move on to Vote 41, which deals with the Policing Authority. As no members are indicating, we will proceed to Vote 44, concerning the Data Protection Commission.

Deputy Martin Kenny

This is an issue for which we in Ireland have a particular responsibility because the headquarters of many of the large multinational data centres are located here. This is their home address, whether or not all their activity happens here. This puts a huge onus on the State, in a European context and probably in a worldwide context as well, to act appropriately on this issue. My understanding is that some good work has been done in this respect. The Data Protection Commission has come under criticism in the past for its slow and lethargic way of dealing with complaints, issues and problems. Those complaints have not just come from within the State; they have been international. We need to acknowledge that. While I welcome the additional funding, it needs to be kept under review. This clearly is an area we will need to beef up considerably.

I am concerned about the issue of data kidnapping, an incidence of which took place this week, whereby hackers take people's data and hold the entities responsible for those data to ransom. It has happened with the HSE and now with a higher educational facility, the latter coming under the remit of the Minister in his other Department. Does he believe we will be able to get to a situation whereby we can meet our international requirements in this regard? To date, we have not been able to get there.

A spin-off issue concerns the cameras that are in operation in various buildings around the country, including this one, about which there has been some controversy recently. I am not concerned as to their country of origin or whatever. My concern is the security of the data. If the information stored by the State may be vulnerable, we must take adequate action to ensure it is secure. I would like to hear the Minister's view on this, particularly in regard to the cameras in Leinster House. Will he indicate whether the particular company and set of systems that came under attack have been used by other State agencies or in other buildings around the country? In some instances, the information may be even more delicate than what might be seen by the cameras in this place. To my knowledge, there is not that much happening in the corridors of Leinster House to excite anybody in Russia, China or anywhere else. However, there may be other agencies of the State and certain Departments about which we should possibly be more concerned. Having said that, it is appropriate that something should be done to ensure the security of the Leinster House system.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Alan Farrell)

I thank Deputy Kenny very much. He must have been reading my notes.

Deputy Martin Kenny

I cannot.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Alan Farrell)

I wanted to raise the very issue he has raised about the decision of the Commission against the Data Protection Commission decisions. Some quite concerning remarks were made in the judgment on which the committee probably needs a little bit more discussion. I am a member of the committee since September and I do not recall it being discussed, although I might be incorrect on that. As a committee, there is a body of oversight that we must fulfil. The decision that led to that appeal being taken, which has been reversed with some remarks, is worthy of our consideration.

The final remark I want to make also relates to what Deputy Martin Kenny raised. I am chairing this meeting on behalf of Deputy Lawless. It would be very helpful for the committee to give consideration to the Minister's views on the matter. He may well respond to these remarks, but it might be helpful for him to communicate to us through the secretariat on any concerns the Department of Justice might have with regard to technology that is used within the public sector and within public buildings or whether the committee might have to refer to the likes of the OPW and separately to each individual Department because there are multiple owners of property across the State where there may be issues of concern relating to technology. I believe at least two countries have made a decision to remove this company or not to acquire its technology. Australia is one, and I am pretty sure there was a European country as well. That of itself is of concern. Deputy Martin Kenny is probably quite correct that this is a public forum and therefore there is no big secret, but there are plenty of buildings where private meetings take place and where the contents of those meetings could potentially have a national security, technology or commercial impact and therefore we must carefully review the situation.

A controversy arose in the past which the Minister may recall in a very similar vein. It related to 5G. I cannot help but feel there was not a very thorough debate about it, or rather the policymakers and decision-makers in these Houses were not really informed as to the precise technical nature of why other jurisdictions made a proposal that they then implemented on 5G technology, on which we breezily said the decision is made and the technology is in place and sure is our phone service not great. We need more of that and while I am open to correction, this committee seems to be the appropriate forum. Perhaps consideration could be given to such conversations being had so that at least a committee of the Houses of the Oireachtas, the Deputies for the people, could be properly advised on the impact or otherwise of a particular piece of technology. That is something to consider. While the Minister will probably give a verbal response he might have some further thoughts that he might like to put in writing for the committee to consider and digest.

Deputy Simon Harris

I will take the issues in order. First, I will respond to the question on the Data Protection Commission. As is right and proper, I am very conscious of its independence. I am especially conscious of that for all of the reasons colleagues have outlined regarding its role not just in Ireland but its lead oversight and supervisory role at an EU level. I did meet with the Data Protection Commissioner, Helen Dixon, probably two weeks ago, because it does fall under the remit of my Department, while being independent in the performance of its task and the exercise of its powers, as it should. I will not comment on any specific finding, investigation or matters before European courts for those reasons, other than to say it is for the commission to decide how it wishes to respond, legally or otherwise to those matters. I am conscious that some of them are live.

From the point of view of the Department and the Government, we are committed to ensuring that the DPC is supported and resourced, and that there is a robust statutory footing for its work. Colleagues will know that we do intend to appoint two new DPC commissioners. They will be in place by the second quarter of this year. We will be moving from a single commissioner to a college of commissioners in many ways, to three commissioners. Alongside that, we have an understanding that there will be a review of the DPC governance structures, staffing arrangements and processes in order to support the work and to inform what will be a new model of commission. That work is due to conclude around the same time as well. We will have the review of the DPC governance structures, staffing arrangements and processes, plus the appointment of two additional DPC commissioners. There is a very significant increase in the budget. The funding for the DPC will be a seven-fold increase from where it was in 2015, as it should be. That is just to give the committee a sense of the scale of additional increase. With the appointment of two additional commissioners we hope to send a very strong message about our statement of intent to continue to build the capacity of the Data Protection Commission to support the exiting commissioner and to ensure that the commission can continue to deliver on its role. I am proud of the role of the Data Protection Commission. It carries out a very demanding role and I am very conscious of its independence. I do not wish to stray too much but I do think that the relationship in terms of information flow and understanding by the members of the role of the DPC and that the DPC has a role in terms of the committee is probably something that benefits further consideration.

In response to Deputy Farrell's point, there is no doubt that the only direction of travel in terms of data is that it is going to become more important, a bigger political issue, a public discourse issue, a policymaking issue, a security issue and, therefore, making sure that there is a good, albeit robust, relationship and flow of information is key. It is important that all of us as Members of the Oireachtas are kept well briefed on all of these issues because it is very important.

On the issue of cyberattacks and cybersecurity in general, I thank the Munster Technological University for the work it has been doing. Nobody is immune from cyberattack, whether a business, State institution or university. Cyberattacks are just a relatively new form of criminality but the same old-fashioned criminal purpose is still there: to extort, blackmail and to steal money. That is what these criminals are trying to do. They are criminal gangs, often at a high level of organised crime. It did not succeed in this case in terms of any ransom being paid. MTU is working very closely with the Garda and the National Cyber Security Centre . I thank all of them for their work, which is very much ongoing. Students and staff impacted will be issued with letters and information very shortly, but in general the advice for them in particular and for all of us is to frequently change passwords, be alert to things like phishing or scam emails, unsolicited messages and the like trying to obtain further data.

The standard response I always give on cameras - it is important that I give it - is that I do not comment on security matters or security advice given to me as Minister for Justice. That is for good reasons, but I do think it is important that all State bodies and these Houses of the Oireachtas are aware of the willingness and ability of An Garda Síochána to give security advice at any stage. We have seen the Garda step in and step up with security advice about individual public representatives, and all of us as public representatives. That same willingness to provide security advice is there now. That is the way these things should be addressed. I have no doubt that the Houses of the Oireachtas take such matters very seriously. It is right and proper that they should. They must. However, I do think the security advice should come through An Garda Síochána and other appropriate security mechanisms available to the State.

I will reflect on the point Deputy Farrell makes about the role of this committee in terms of information flow in a manner that is appropriate. Anything to do with national security, the security of our Parliament, institutions, democracy, or State is something the Garda takes extraordinarily seriously, and its members are on hand, through my Department, to provide any information that is required.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Alan Farrell)

I thank the Minister very much. I appreciate the time he has taken to go through the various Votes with the committee. I also thank the Minister's officials for their attendance this afternoon. We will suspend proceedings and move into private session. Is that agreed? Agreed.