SELECT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, DEFENCE AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 Dec 2010

Estimates for Public Services 2010Vote 19 - Justice and Law Reform (Supplementary)Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Supplementary) Vote 22 - the Courts Service (Supplementary)

Acting Chairman (Deputy Thomas Byrne)

I thank the members. This meeting has been convened to consider the Supplementary Estimates for Vote 19 - Justice and Law Reform, Vote 20 - Garda Síochána, and Vote 22 - the Courts Service. I remind members that these are Supplementary Estimates rather than the totality of the Estimates. I thank the Minister for Justice and Law Reform and his officials for attending and assisting in the consideration of these Supplementary Estimates.

We only have the room until 3.30 p.m., so if we adhere to a reasonably strict schedule, the Minister will address the committee for ten minutes, after which the Opposition spokespersons will have the same length of time, and an open discussion can take place after that. Is that agreed? Agreed.

We are only considering Supplementary Estimates for the justice Vote, and while members may discuss issues relevant to the subheads, they may not recommend increases or decreases in the Supplementary Estimates, and there are no votes. I now invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

Minister for Justice and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern)

There is no additional funding requirement arising in respect of the Supplementary Estimates of €10 million. It is required for the Garda Vote and has been offset by savings from elsewhere in the Vote group. In effect, the Supplementary Estimates are a technical accounting exercise to offset overruns in a number of subheads against savings in other subheads before the end of the financial year. Notwithstanding the additional Garda requirement, the Vote group is expected to surrender at least €22 million to the Exchequer at the end of the year. This arises in the main part from greater than projected receipts and prudent management of expenditure across all areas of the Department, its offices and agencies.

The additional requirement of €10 million in respect of the Garda Vote arises across a range of subheads, and will allow the Garda Commissioner additional scope in meeting essential costs in key areas of the fight against organised and other serious crime.

While there is a shortfall of €40 million in Garda pay and allowances, it is more than offset by a corresponding saving in Garda superannuation. Members will recollect that there was a very high number of retirements in 2009. This has not been repeated to the same extent in 2010 and as a result, the Supplementary Estimate is rebalancing the allocation between the pay and the superannuation subheads. It is projected that there will be around 14,400 serving members at the end of 2010. Currently, there are approximately 1,300 Garda members in the category who are eligible to retire, namely, those members who have reached the age of 50 and have 30 years service. While this factor, combined with the moratorium on recruitment, will inevitably mean a reduction in the strength of the force in the short term, the significant increases in Garda numbers in recent years means that the force is in a good position to absorb the impact of the moratorium on recruitment.

The postal and telecommunications subhead is also showing an excess against the budget of over €14 million. This is directly linked to the service charges and implementation costs for the national digital radio service, which was put in place by the Department of Finance on behalf of the Garda Síochána and other "blue light" service providers. In addition, a significant upgrade of the entire Garda wide area network is currently nearing completion. This is the primary network which serves a number of key Garda systems such as PULSE and the GNIB information systems.

Subhead D, which deals with transport, is also showing an excess of €14.6 million. This is largely due to the fuel and running costs of a Garda fleet of almost 2,800 vehicles. I am pleased to say that the appropriate sanction has been received recently to purchase in the region of 150 replacement Garda cars which will be utilised throughout the country.

Additional expenditure has been incurred in a number of other subheads such as station services, €6.56 million, travel and subsistence, €1.2 million, and subhead I, which deals with compensation and comes to €1.258 million. There is also an additional requirement in subhead A5, which deals with ICT, of €3.375 million, and this relates in part to the continued investment in new and existing technology to ensure that gardaí are resourced to the greatest extent possible in the investigation and detection of serious crime.

In order to offset these additional requirements, savings will be realised across a number of subheads in the Garda Vote. I have referred previously to the savings in superannuation being available to offset the overrun in Garda pay. In addition, there are savings in subhead E of €6.297 million due to the need to prioritise expenditure in other areas. The appropriations-in-aid subhead is showing surplus receipts of €21.625 million, mainly as a result of a greater than anticipated intake in pension related deductions and in fees received for renewal and purchase of firearm licences. The licensing process changed in this regard in 2010, as licences are now renewed every three years rather than annually as heretofore.

Before leaving the Garda Vote, I would like to draw attention to the fact that Mr. Fachtna Murphy, the current Garda Commissioner, will be retiring at the end of December, after a long and distinguished career. On my own behalf and on behalf of the Government, I would like to acknowledge the substantial contribution of the Commissioner to policing over the years and to extend every best wish to him on his retirement.

While an overall net saving of €14 million is anticipated in the Justice and Law Reform Vote, additional provisions are required under a number of subheads. These chiefly relate to subhead C1, dealing with criminal legal aid which, while showing a reduction on 2009 expenditure levels, still requires additional funding of €7.5 million. For subhead D1, dealing with the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service, an additional €12.3 million has been incurred. As with the criminal legal aid subhead, various measures have been taken to reduce expenditure in this area, but one of the main drivers behind additional expenditure relates to the costs of judicial reviews arising from legal challenges around cases where decisions on the right to remain in the State are contested by asylum seekers.

There are smaller overruns reflected in the Department's administrative subheads, especially subhead A5, which deals with information technology, due to the fact that the Department has centralised its IT support for a large number of offices and agencies under its remit, including overseas visa offices. Subhead A3, incidental expenses, has an additional requirement of €1.8 million, which is accounted for the most part by legal costs as a result of court decisions.

In order to offset those subheads that are demand-led and are incurring overruns, it has been necessary to reallocate savings under a number of subheads. Savings of €5.5 million arise regarding subhead B1, commissions and special inquiries, primarily due to the delay in the finalisation of third party legal costs. Programme expenditure in subheads such as E5, Cosc, and H3, probation services, are also contributing savings to meet the additional requirements due to changes in funding structures and the need to achieve increased efficiencies and value for money. There also are savings in G3, Criminal Assets Bureau, of €1 million and G13, Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, of €1.2 million, due to reduced administration costs, particularly regarding the provision for legal costs.

There also are surplus receipts of €11.753 million, primarily arising in the INIS area from a combination of visa, immigration and citizenship fees. Additional receipts in respect of pension-related deductions have also contributed to this surplus.

On the courts Vote, an appropriations-in-aid surplus of almost €4 million, generated by greater than anticipated court fee income and pension-related deductions, together with savings in other subheads, will fund additional requirements in other areas. The remaining balances will be returned to the Exchequer at the end of the year. The largest areas of additional expenditure relate to subhead B1, courthouse capital, subhead A5, ICT expenditure, and subhead A3, incidental expenses, with amounts of €3.608 million, €2.758 million and €1.837 million, respectively. The additional requirement in respect of courthouse capital arises primarily because refurbishment work on Kilkenny and Monaghan courthouses finished ahead of schedule. This requirement effectively has been offset by a saving of more than €3 million in the provision set aside for a once-off VAT payment to the Revenue Commissioners in respect of the Criminal Courts of Justice complex. The additional ICT expenditure relates for the most part to the further deployment of digital audio recording, DAR, to all remaining District Court and Circuit Court locations.

Finally, the remaining Votes in the group, for the Prison Service and the Property Registration Authority, PRA, have shown combined savings of almost €13 million in the current year. In the case of the PRA, the saving of €2.85 million is mainly in payroll due to a reduction in staff numbers and the non-filling of the resultant vacancies. The savings on the prison Vote are expected to be in the region of €10 million. The main area giving rise to savings is the salaries subhead, due to the relatively large number of retirements and the impact of the moratorium on recruitment. Nevertheless, I should point out that there has been some recruitment in the Prison Service in the current year comprising 154 recruit prison officers and seven nurse officers, and due to the demands on the Prison Service I am keeping this area under constant review. Despite a decrease of almost 6% in the current expenditure allocation for the justice group in 2010 compared with the outturn for 2009, I am pleased to report that it will be possible to balance the books and return a surrender balance to the Exchequer of at least €22 million. While it is clear there are many challenges facing the sector, prudent budget management means that resources continue to be directed towards priority areas within the criminal justice system.

Although the focus of today's proceedings is very much on the current financial year, all members will be aware of the considerable fiscal challenges which continue to face us over the next four years. Clearly, the justice sector is no different to any other area of the public sector and while it has contributed significant savings in the last two years, it must generate further savings over the next four years, as published in last week's national recovery plan. While a breakdown of some of the areas affected was outlined in the plan, there is more work to be done on identifying areas from which savings can be derived.

However, I assure the committee that front line services will continue to be prioritised to ensure the safety and protection of citizens throughout the State. There has been very significant investment in the justice sector in recent years both in respect of increased Garda numbers and investment in physical infrastructure in the form of courthouses, prisons and Garda stations, as well as the development of leading-edge information technology systems across the five Votes in the group. Therefore, much has been done within the sector with the resources available in the recent past and much can still be done in the future, despite the reduced financial resources. The Department's capital budget will continue to provide for the provision of essential prison places, including the development of Thornton Hall on a phased basis, together with the development and maintenance of key Garda ICT systems. The justice sector will continue to prioritise the resources available in key front line areas to maintain the protection and safety of citizens against the scourge of serious crime. I recommend this Supplementary Estimate to the committee.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Thomas Byrne)

Deputy Shatter has ten minutes.

Deputy Alan Shatter

Perhaps the Acting Chairman will tell me when one minute remains to me. It is not really possible within ten minutes to address all the issues of relevance-----

Acting Chairman (Deputy Thomas Byrne)

As the committee is scheduled to sit until 3.30 p.m. if the Deputy wishes, and only four members are present-----

Deputy Alan Shatter

I was starting my ten minutes and so I made that point.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Thomas Byrne)

The Deputy will be able to come back in.

Deputy Alan Shatter

It is not really possible within ten minutes to address all the issues of relevance to the Estimate before members regarding the different areas that fall within the remit of the Department of Justice and Law Reform. Consequently, I wish to address some discrete issues that arise, which are of relevance, have an impact on expenditure within the Department and are matters of policy. However, like the Minister I wish to begin by wishing Commissioner Fachtna Murphy well in his retirement. He has devoted a huge amount of time and energy to his position as Commissioner. He has been a good Commissioner, has been involved in a number of successful interventions and has done a substantial amount to foster good relationships with the PSNI. I know, from my meetings in Northern Ireland, that he is held in high esteem there. It is right for members to wish him well on his retirement.

I wish to deal initially with the Garda Síochána. In his contribution, the Minister made reference to Garda numbers being in the region of 14,400 at present. The Minister might clarify whether this figure includes the part-time Garda force or whether it is confined to full-time members of the force. I understand that the Garda Representative Association calculates the current figure to be approximately 14,000, as opposed to 14,400. However, what is a matter of particular concern derives from the national recovery plan. I make this point in the context of the evil impact of drugs gangs on this State, the gun warfare that is being undertaken on the streets of Dublin and elsewhere, the international dimension to the drugs trade, the fact that some of the drug bosses who are responsible for trafficking drugs into Ireland now live outside it and the unfortunate resurgence in activities by what I describe as irredentist paramilitaries, who have appeared on the scene in the guise of the Continuity IRA and the Real IRA, although I believe that with regard to some of those individuals, the badges are interchangeable.

It is absolutely vital for the security of this State, to maintain law and order and to provide to the community the protection to which it is entitled, that the Garda force is maintained, at a minimum, at its present numbers. It is to be deplored and is an absolute scandal that the Government's national recovery plan envisages the numbers falling from the figure of 14,400, as provided by the Minister, to 13,000. This is a considerable mistake on the Government's part. At a time when more gardaí are needed on the streets, when we must ensure that drugs gangs are put under pressure, when contract killers are being recruited to eliminate people in parts of Dublin, it is of the utmost importance to maintain the strength of the Garda. It also is of very great importance in the context of the security risks that are now posed by paramilitary activities. Thus far in the discussions taking place on the national recovery plan, no focus has been placed on the Government's apparent intention to have no new recruits to the Garda Síochána and to reduce its numbers essentially by 1,500. It is of crucial importance that the current numbers be maintained and one should take into account the fact that numbers of gardaí will retire. The Minister has indicated the number of gardaí remaining in the force who are now eligible to retire.

It will also be crucial to restart a recruitment campaign and Garda training. Earlier this year, the Minister announced that 100 new recruits would be taken into the Garda training college. Although there was a large number of applicants, the situation has not advanced. A matter of considerable concern to garda officers is that the force's age profile will unduly change and that the young recruits who are required will not be recruited. In this context, the Minister is being less than genuine, given his portrayal of the force up until relatively recently as maintaining numbers of 14,000 plus. We now know the position in that regard.

In respect of the Garda's work, it is of great concern that we have a DNA database. In 1999 or 1998 when I was also Fine Gael's justice spokesperson, we proposed that Ireland should have a DNA database. "Mr. Zero Tolerance", Deputy O'Donoghue, the then Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, announced in 2000 on behalf of the Government that legislation would be enacted to provide a DNA database. The current Minister published the legislation ten years later in January 2010, but it has made no progress and no priority seems to have been given to it. We are one of the few countries in Europe that do not have a DNA database. The availability of such a database is crucial in the investigation of crime, particularly homicides and sexual crimes, and in dealing with terrorism, be it our home-grown variety or international terrorism.

Will the Minister explain the reason for the delay in processing the DNA database legislation? What steps, if any, have been taken to date to identify a premises out of which this service will operate to provide the requisite technical programmes, expertise and computer background. What expenditure, if any, this year was earmarked for that project and what, if anything, has been spent?

Regarding the prison system, the huge white elephant is Thornton Hall prison, which is to be constructed. Some €42.5 million of taxpayers' money has gone into that project so far in terms of land acquisition and the initial works undertaken. As I understand it, it was the plan of the current Government that a wall would be constructed around what is the most expensive piece of farmland in Ireland during the first half of 2011. Has the Minister any plan to cancel Thornton Hall? If Fianna Fáil continues in government next year, is it intended that the wall will be constructed? The company Sisk has been engaged this year in the construction of an access road, so we will have an excellent road to the most expensive piece of farmland. Are we now to have it encased in a wall so that the growing dandelions and daisies have adequate security in case someone might want to make a flower arrangement out of them?

In the context of the probation service, the Minister referred to savings that have been effected. Have they been effected as a consequence of under-usage of the community service order scheme? This scheme could have been of greater use. This is one area to which the Minister has come rather late in the recent months via announcements to the effect that, where people are sentenced to short prison sentences, the community and those who are convicted would be better served were the latter to undertake community service to the benefit of the community instead of costing taxpayers approximately €1,500 per week to be kept in prison. There would be some payback for alleged offences. Far too many individuals who are given short-term prison sentences leave prison as better crime graduates. Within four years, more than 50% of them have been convicted for re-offending and again find themselves behind bars. Why was there not greater use of the community service order scheme and have some of the savings been effected by its deliberate under-usage?

Acting Chairman (Deputy Thomas Byrne)

The Deputy is almost past time, but I am happy for him to continue if it will only be for a few minutes. Actually, there is approximately one minute left.

Deputy Alan Shatter

I will only mention one further matter. I wish to raise a specific issue in respect of Garda time and fines. In a ludicrous situation, members of the Garda Síochána attend courts, in this instance presumably the District Court, a case may be adjourned two or three times before it is determined, a District Court judge then sits and hears the case, a criminal legal aid lawyer may be paid by the State to represent the alleged offender, the alleged offender may then get convicted, which takes up the time of the judge and court clerk, and, in many instances, the alleged offender may be fined. He or she may be told that, if the fine is not paid, the alternative penalty is imprisonment for one week, 14 days or one month. When the fine is not paid, the court clerk sends a notice to the Garda and a local Garda patrol car might be sent to pick up the person who did not pay the fine. The car might need to visit two or three times. A person in Dublin who does not pay the fine will be taken to Mountjoy Prison. Under the Minister's current operation as detailed by him to me in a letter I received on 10 November in response to a parliamentary question I tabled to clarify some issues, the Garda patrol car with its two gardaí, who may be paid overtime to do this, arrives at Mountjoy Prison, the convicted offender is taken in, his or her form is signed and he or she is then released. Not only is the convicted offender not imprisoned, his or her fine is waived.

Garda, court and prison resources are being wasted on a fines system that has collapsed. On top of this, the courts are being brought into disrepute. I queried why prisoners who were taken to jail for not paying fines did not appear among the statistics of those who received the benefit of temporary release when they were released without fully serving the sentence which was the alternative to the fine. I received a letter from the Minister that, were it not so outrageous, would be hilarious. It states: "If a person imprisoned for the non payment of a fine pays off the full balance of the fine while in prison that person will be released." This makes sense, but it goes on to state:

I have been advised by the Irish Prison Service that it has been the position that when a person imprisoned for the non payment of a fine and some payment is made towards the fine, or in some cases no payment at all, a decision may be made to release that person and remit any outstanding element of the fine so that person is released without any continuing sanction in force against them. A person released in these circumstances is released unconditionally and is not on temporary release.

In other words, the letter means that, if one is arrested for not paying a fine and taken to prison, one will be released if one pays it in full, pays a bit of it or pays none of it at all and one will never serve any sentence as an alternative to the fine. This practice is based on instructions issued on behalf of the Minister in June of this year. In a reply to a parliamentary question I asked, there was an implication that this letter, issued in June of this year, replaced a previous one. It now appears there was no previous one.

The situation now is that thousands of people throughout this country are being told that, if the courts impose a fine on them, they need do nothing. They might need to spend an hour in a car being driven to prison, but they will be released within 30 minutes or so, no one will care and the fine will be commuted. This is an outrageous contempt for the administration of justice. It tacitly illustrates the extent to which this Government has talked tough on crime but has utterly failed to ensure that the integrity of our criminal justice system is properly protected.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Thomas Byrne)

I thank Deputy Shatter. I now ask Deputy Rabbitte to make his contribution. As Deputy Shatter had 15 minutes I am happy for Deputy Rabbitte to continue for as long as he wishes.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I thank the Acting Chairman for his even-handedness but I do not intend to take that up, largely because, as the Minister stated, this is a technical accounting exercise. It probably highlights the necessity for us to change the way we do business on the Estimates and public expenditure decision-making generally.

I should start by wishing the Minister well on his announcement yesterday. It will not be the same around here without his smiling conciliatory demeanour. I hope he enjoys his retirement after many years of public service. May I also offer my best wishes to the retiring Garda Commissioner, Fachtna Murphy, and the appreciation of the Labour Party for his work not only as Garda Commissioner but in his role as a policeman over the years, particularly in respect of the Criminal Assets Bureau. I wish him well in his retirement. I do not know whether the Minister will state whether it is the intention of the present Government to appoint a new Garda Commissioner before it leaves office. If it is the intention of the Government to do so, is the Government minded to give any consideration to an outside appointment?

Will the Minister explain the Garda Vote and the Vote for the Courts Service? I do not quite get it. His ability to vire funds between one head and another derives from savings and receipts. I am not sure I understand how there are such savings in Garda superannuation. Is it because we made a provision last year that anticipated more gardaí retiring than did in the event actually retire? Is this a swings and roundabouts situation? Can we anticipate that in 2011 we will have another rush of retirements? The Acting Chairman is smiling as though to say that will not be his problem and we can live with it.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Thomas Byrne)

There will be many swings and roundabouts in the coming years.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

The Minister draws attention to the fact that there was a very high number of retirements in 2009 and a lower number than anticipated in 2010. It would seem to suggest that without a doubt there is an acute sensitivity to the statements of Ministers, particularly the Minister of Finance, about retirement conditions and the conditions attaching to pension entitlements, particularly in the Garda Síochána, as I suppose there is among all public servants. If this is the case, and given the four year plan, we are in for a very bad year in 2011 when we are likely to see many senior experienced policemen leaving the force. Clearly, this is a cause of some concern. I like the sentence about the force being in a good position to absorb the impact, but it seems to me that if the number of senior policeman about which we are speaking is likely to leave the service, under a guillotine hanging over their heads in terms of the four year agreement prior to Mr. Chopra returning, we will have difficulties in this department.

With regard to the additional costs of servicing the new national radio service, is it up and running and functioning without such problems as there were with the PULSE system? With regard to the underestimate on the cost of running the Garda fleet, why should we be out by almost €50 million? I presume the reference to the 150 replacement cars is coming out of the Estimate for 2010. The Minister states sanction has been given to a recent purchase. Are the cars being purchased now? Will they have 2011 or 2010 numberplates?

Acting Chairman (Deputy Thomas Byrne)

That is a good question.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

It is a good question.

The question of savings in superannuation is repeated in the Courts Service. Is the matter with regard to firearms as a result of the Bill we passed a year ago?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Yes.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

We have benefited from the first disbursement of licences but we will pay a certain price for it in the coming years, in the sense that there will not be-----

Deputy Dermot Ahern

It is the same amount I think but in one lump.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

On the question of the additional costs, which are significant, of the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service, I have been under the impression that because numbers were falling we would not have additional costs. How much of this is being ascribed to judicial reviews? This raises a question about the Bill. Whatever its imperfections, it is now likely to fall with the Government and this is disappointing. As the Minister stated we had 18 sessions on the previous incarnation of the Bill on Committee Stage and we had four on the present Bill. Are there any circumstances in which the Minister would think it is in the national interest, so to speak, if the Opposition was minded - I do not know what the attitude of my colleague, Deputy Shatter, would be - to allow the Bill, notwithstanding its imperfections, to progress to Report Stage? What would be the attitude of the Minister on our capacity to finalise it? As we see here, there are implications and we are inundated with representations from non-governmental organisations and others about this. It looks like it will fall again and start all over again.

Why are there savings in the probation service? Are they really savings? Everybody involved with penal reform and penal policy advises me that the money spent on the probation service is money well spent and that given the cost of incarcerating a young person in either St. Patrick's, Mountjoy or another prison generally is so expensive, money spent on the probation service is very valuable and productive value for money. Why have we ended up with savings in this regard?

Why is there a once-off VAT payment due to the Revenue Commissioners? I thought the Criminal Courts of Justice complex was a public-private partnership. In such circumstances, why do we have to pay the VAT rather than the preferred bidder?

The Minister did another genuflection to Thornton Hall. I do not want to scale that wall because, although there will be a fierce amount of snow behind it after it is built, I do not know if anything else will be there.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

The Deputy might have to open it if he ever becomes Minister for Justice and Law Reform.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

If I do, I shall send an invitation to Dundalk in order that the Minister can come down for opening day.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I thank the Deputy but I will be unavoidably unavailable.

Deputy Alan Shatter

It will be the day of the laying of the first brick for the wall.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Thomas Byrne)

The opening of the wall. In regard to the cars to which Deputy Rabbitte referred, are they being driven at present? It might be a good idea to leave them until January because they may be worth more to the country then.

Legal costs appear to be a constant battle. The Department is gaining in some areas but losing in others. What is it doing in that regard? Demand-led criminal legal aid has constitutional implications and imposes a huge cost on the taxpayer. What can be done within the restrictions?

Deputy Joe Carey

I join my colleagues in wishing Fachtna Murphy well in his retirement. He has done a fine job as Garda Commissioner. I respect the Minister's decision to retire and wish him well in his life outside politics.

The Minister referred to the Government's significant level of investment in prisons. I am disappointed there was no reference to the proposed new national children's detention facility in Lusk, County Dublin. I raised this issue on numerous occasions through parliamentary questions. It would helpful if the Minister outlined the status of the project which is intended to replace St. Patrick's Institution. St. Patrick's is housed in a Victorian building which is neither fit for purpose or conducive to rehabilitation. The new facility presents us with an opportunity to divert young offenders away from a life of crime.

Significant savings were made on offices and administration. Were these made by accident or were they driven by the Department? Clearly savings can be made without compromising front-line services.

Deputy Alan Shatter

In regard to Wheatfield prison and the new wing that was opened there, I have not seen it but I am told it contains a large number of offices. Is the Minister in a position to explain why they are there and what they are intended to be used for?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Deputy Shatter referred to part-time gardaí. There are no part-time gardaí in the State. A garda is either full-time or a member of the reserve.

Deputy Alan Shatter

I meant the reserve.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

There are at present 600 reserve gardaí. The GRA's claim that the Garda strength is only 13,000 is not correct. The accurate figures by year are 11,800 in 2002, 12,000 in 2003, 12,200 in 2004, 12,264 in 2005, 12,954 in 2006, 13,755 in 2007, 14,400 at the end of 2008, 14,547 at the end of 2009, and 14,600 at the end of September 2010. The four year plan proposes a decrease in the number of gardaí but this will be a matter for future Governments to decide in terms of their priorities. The Deputy's party has proposed a significant reduction in public service numbers but if it gets into Government it will have to prioritise among nurses, teachers, gardaí and civil servants. I assure him it is not an easy job to decide between the various services provided by the State. In the education sector, the demographic surge at primary level is one of the reasons the Government is trying to maintain the number of teachers. These are the choices that have to be made by Governments when resources are limited.

In regard to the DNA database, legislation has been published and I would like to proceed with it as quickly as possible. Given that it involves complex matters, however, it may not be completed before the general election. I would like to think the next Government will continue working on it given that considerable work has been done. This year, €4 million was allocated in our Estimate for the logistics of establishing a DNA database. The OPW, which has responsibility for providing the building that will house the database, hopes to commence the contract process early in the new year and I understand it has allocated resources to commence the project next year if a contract is awarded.

Deputy Alan Shatter

In regard to the €4 million to which the Minister referred, was that spent this year?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Some of the money was used elsewhere in the Estimate but most of it was not spent because the legislation is not yet in place.

I will not be calling a halt to Thornton Hall. The wall will be erected and the access road is being constructed. A similar modus operandi was observed in Wheatfield, where a wall was erected before the prison was constructed. There is provision in the Estimates for the next two years to continue the work at Thornton Hall. I will be observing from afar when the incoming Government, of whatever colour, decides how to proceed.

In regard to the question of fines and community service, the necessity for Thornton Hall arises because of the increasing numbers in our prisons. Given that we cannot magic them away, we must provide additional prison spaces if the courts increasingly provide for custodial sentences. I do not agree that I have come late to community service orders. The legislation is in place and ultimately their implementation is at the discretion of judges. However, I notice there has been a 33% increase in the use of community service orders in the Dublin area in the first nine months of this year, which is a substantial change. As Deputies know, I will be introducing a Bill, the draft heads of which were approved by Cabinet recently, under which judges, rather than only having discretion in this regard, will be obliged to consider the use of community service orders. I would like to think their use will increase. At the moment, whether community service orders are used depends on the judges themselves. Some courts use them while others do not. Every effort has been made, through the continuous training courses participated in by judges in the District Court and the Circuit Court and headed by the presidents of those courts, to persuade judges to use community service orders.

With regard to the collection of fines, I recall that the Deputy's predecessor tabled a parliamentary question lambasting me about the fact that so many bench warrants were outstanding. There were a significant number outstanding, mainly for non-payment of fines. After that question and the resulting row in the Dáil, the Garda Commissioner and his team decided that we had better do something about this. They started a significant campaign around a year ago to execute warrants, which meant that large numbers of people arrived at the prison doors for non-payment of fines. As the Deputy knows, we have made substantial changes to the legislation in the form of the Fines Act, most of which will be implemented on 1 January. The instalment aspect of the Act will not be implemented on that date because significant logistical work is required to implement this due to the large number of District Court cases - around 500,000 - that take place every year.

The way in which fine defaulters are dealt with in prison is a long-standing practice whereby a fine is waived, in whole or in part, by the governor depending on the space available. Our level of fine collection generally is at the international norm of about 80%, so we are dealing with the 20% of fines that are not collected. Depending on the space available in the prison, the governor has the ability to waive the fine in whole or in part. That has been the practice and there has been no change in that for decades.

The answer to the Deputy's concern is to build more prison spaces or, as we have done, pass legislation to ensure that only people who have the money and refuse to pay the fine go to jail, and that those people who cannot afford to pay the fine do not go to jail. After the implementation of the Fines Act, Deputies will see a sea change in this regard. If Deputy Shatter practises in the District Court, as I did before I came to the House, he will see a significant change in the way in which the judges do their business. Instead of fining someone €1,000 and declaring a sentence of one month in prison in default, judges will now be obliged to go through various processes, including a court-appointed receiver. Before anyone goes to prison, the receiver will be sent out to take goods in lieu of the fine, and if he or she comes back without any goods, a community service order will be considered. If a community service order is not given, the judge may consider - this could also be considered at an earlier stage - the payment of the fine in instalments, and there can be an extension of the time allowed for payment. The ultimate result of the Fines Act, which we passed a few months ago, will be a sea change in that people who should never have been near a prison will no longer be imprisoned for non-payment of fines. If I leave any legacy, I would like it to be that, in the areas of both civil debt and fines, only those people who refuse to pay and can pay will go to prison, while those who genuinely cannot afford to pay will not.

I thank Deputy Rabbitte for his remarks about me. I will miss the jousting we engaged in, but I wish him well in the future.

A question was asked about the number of members of the Garda Síochána who are retiring and how it relates to the amount specified in the Vote. About 390 have retired in 2010 to date, but they did not retire in the sort of numbers that were anticipated based on last year. Thus, we are still collecting the pension levy from those who did not retire, and that is why there is an excess in the appropriations.

Digital radio has been 90% rolled out around the country and, to the best of my knowledge, there is no problem with it. I understand it is an excellent service, although it is expensive. It is significant in that it is across all emergency vehicles, but it is also on a platform that suits all of these services. There are moves to ensure that Garda Síochána and PSNI officers at a low level can speak to each other and that the two radio services are compatible.

With regard to the Garda fleet, we were under-provided for by about €15 million and we were obliged to make some changes. I understand the contract for the 150 new Garda cars has been awarded and they will be 2010 cars.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Thomas Byrne)

They are not on the road yet?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I do not think so.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

What is the point in putting them on the road now?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

It is academic, really. The car is the same age either way. I do not know. The contract has been awarded and the cars will be available. We have to spend the money before the end of the year.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

There could be a write-down of 25% at a minimum by the time we get to Christmas.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Thomas Byrne)

And there is the scrappage scheme.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

While they may have been purchased, they also need to be fitted out specially as Garda vehicles. I think the brand is Toyota Avensis. I answered the query on the issue of firearms.

With regard to the INIS, virtually all of the overrun of €10 million is due to judicial reviews. I am open to any suggestions on the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill as I would like it to be passed before the next general election. It still needs to be passed in the Seanad, and if it is not passed before the general election it will fall and be reproduced by the next Government. That is a pity, as it would need to be started all over again. I do not think a committee can continue after a general election. That will be the fourth attempt at the Bill, which is unfortunate because, as Deputies have said, it would have reduced the bill for judicial reviews.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Does the Seanad sit after the election is called?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I think it does. If there is any willingness to pass the Bill, I am open to suggestions. There are only a few net issues in regard to it and I would be more than willing to do this. Equally, if there is a change of Government, I will be looking from afar to see how some of the amendments tabled by others will be treated.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Thomas Byrne)

The clerk informs me that it can be restored on Committee Stage.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I might have to do a Deputy McGrath on this.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Exactly, and rush out the door. Regarding the probation service, there has been a substantial investment and every effort is made to use the service to ensure that people do not go to prison. Regarding once-off VAT I am told the Revenue Commissioners insisted that it be paid in regard to the provision of services. It is a circular payment; there is no ultimate payment or additional cost. It was envisaged that this would be the case.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Has it to do with the contract to provide the building? If so, why is it not in the contract? Why would the State be liable?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Apparently, Revenue declared that it was necessary to pay VAT, either piecemeal over the term of the contract or in one lump sum.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Why does the contractor not put the money up? The contractor gets the repayment over 20 or 25 years, whichever it is. Why are we paying it?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

The contractor pays its own VAT.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

What does the Minister mean? It is all the contractor's own VAT because the building belongs to the contractor.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I will forward a note to the Deputy on this.

I said what I had to say on Thornton Hall. I thank Deputy Carey for his remarks to me. He asked about prisons.

Deputy Joe Carey

I asked about the national child detention facility.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Yes, in Lusk. It would be the intention to proceed with that facility as soon as possible. Obviously, with the reduction in capital moneys some of the proposed prisons around the country, such as Thornton Hall, Lusk, Kilworth and extensions to various prisons, are affected. Some will start, in a block. It is a priority of this Government to proceed with Lusk but there is no money this year. Provision will have to be made next year if it is to start.

Deputy Joe Carey

Does the Minister know the start date?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

No.

Deputy Joe Carey

I realised it is to be phased in.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

The Deputy raised the issue of administration. There is a saving across the various Votes in the Department that relates to a somewhat more prudent management of the spending on administrative costs. I believe I have answered all the questions.

Deputy Alan Shatter

I refer to one of the subheads, namely, tribunals-inquiries, in which savings were effected. In the context of departmental expenditure, does the Smithwick tribunal or any other tribunal come under that subhead?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

The Morris tribunal does.

Deputy Alan Shatter

I am open to correction on the Smithwick tribunal-----

Deputy Dermot Ahern

There is also the Cloyne inquiry.

Deputy Alan Shatter

I am open to correction on the Smithwick tribunal but from recollection I believe it was created in 2005 and has not had a single oral hearing as yet. Does anybody have the remotest idea about what is going on within that tribunal, five years later? Can the Minister identify what expenditure was incurred this year in its regard?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I will try to get the figure for the Deputy. The chairperson is independent and I understand from communications he would have with the Department in the context of the running of his tribunal that he is endeavouring to build up a body of evidence before he takes oral hearings. He suspects or hopes the oral hearings will not take too long once he starts them. I reiterate he is independent of me and----

Deputy Alan Shatter

The Department must pay out moneys towards this tribunal. Is the Minister able to give us a breakdown of this year's expenditure? I find it incomprehensible. The Moriarty tribunal seems to be a permanent fixture on the landscape with no end in sight, going around in circles as far as we can gauge from the items that appear in the national media. The Smithwick tribunal disappeared from sight for five years. I do not know what investigations a tribunal can undertake for five years without once conducting an oral hearing. I appreciate it is independent and I appreciate the Minister's position vis-à-vis a tribunal in that he cannot be seen to interfere in any way in its workings. However, there must be a certain level of accountability for public expenditure on tribunals and a certain requirement that a tribunal reports, to the Houses of the Oireachtas at least, as to what it is doing.

At this stage many of us have views about the length of time the Moriarty tribunal has been sitting and the enormous waste of public funds thereby. As to the Smithwick tribunal, there has not even been an interim report to the Houses. Will the Minister write to the chairman of that tribunal to request that he make an interim report to the Houses on where he sees the tribunal proceeding, in the sense of a timeframe? Can an interim report be made with regard to the work completed to date, in a manner that does not in any way prejudice the completion of that work? On behalf of Fine Gael, I ask the Minister to make such a communication to the Smithwick tribunal. If the Minister tells me he cannot do that procedurally, as an individual, I invite him to place a motion before the Dáil next week, without debate, authorising that such a communication take place, if that is necessary. I do not believe it is in the public interest that a tribunal which by statute would be required to be appointed on a matter of some urgency should go out of sight for five years, that we should hear nothing of it yet the taxpayer would incur ongoing expenditure. If the Minister is in a position to clarify what expenditure has been incurred this year and so far to date in respect of the Smithwick tribunal, I would appreciate if he would do so. If he does not have the information available immediately perhaps he would communicate with members of the committee.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I do not have the figures relating to the Smithwick tribunal but they are published in the appropriation account every September. I do not have this year's figures but have answered parliamentary questions about this matter and have clearly indicated this is an independent tribunal and I cannot interfere or be seen to interfere in its running. I understand the Secretary General of the Department, as Accounting Officer, has discussions on a regular basis with Mr. Justice Smithwick and, on those occasions, he would emphasise the necessity to ensure it is dealt with in the appropriate way in view of the fact that these are public funds. I do not believe I can write to Mr. Justice Smithwick but I can ask my Secretary General to convey the views of the committee. Perhaps when he attends the Committee of Public Accounts, the Secretary General might be asked that question in his role of overseeing the Department.

Deputy Alan Shatter

Do we know how many individuals are employed by the tribunal at this stage?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Not off hand but-----

Deputy Alan Shatter

Do we know what qualifications they have?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I believe the numbers are relatively small.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Thomas Byrne)

It may also be open to this committee to express its views to the Secretary General and to the tribunal.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I am unsure about that.

Deputy Noel Treacy

I agree with my colleagues that the State cannot afford a situation whereby there is a meandering investigation involving a vast number of lawyers for such a long time without conclusion. The Parliament must face up to the fact that as part of Dáil reform we must create a new committee structure with teeth whereby we can carry out this business ourselves rather than farm it out to others at great cost and have to wait indefinitely for conclusions that might never come, and when they come they are opaque and inconclusive.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Thomas Byrne)

We will conclude shortly. Does the Minister wish to make a concluding comment?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I thank the members for this meeting. It has been a useful exercise and hopefully the committee will pass the proposal.

Deputy Noel Treacy

I wish to pay tribute to the Minister, wish him well and thank him for the service he has given the State, often in difficult times, and for the contribution he has made to ensure law and order prevails in the land.

Deputy Joe Carey

The committee should write to Fachtna Murphy to wish him well in his retirement.

Deputy Alan Shatter

I second that proposal. I anticipate that Deputy Rabbitte, the Minister and myself may cross swords for a further two or three weeks but since this is the last Estimates meeting the Minister will attend, I wish him well in his retirement.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Thomas Byrne)

I wish the Minister well. He has been of great help to me in the past few years. I can always ring him with a query and I know this applies to many other Deputies. He was always at the end of the telephone line very quickly in an emergency situation and it was interesting to hear Deputy Shane McEntee confirm this as well. This has always been my experience and it is great that our Ministers are like this. Long may it continue across party divides. The Minister will be missed in the north east. Perhaps I am not toeing the party line but there are several people in Meath East who were looking forward to voting for Deputy Ahern and they will now be denied that opportunity although they have been moved to the Louth constituency. The Minister has done well and I believe he will do well in retirement. I am sure we have not heard the last from him. I thank the Minister and his officials for attending the meeting.