I welcome the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Brian Lenihan, and his officials. The purpose of the meeting is to allow the Minister an opportunity to brief the select committee on his proposals in regard to a Bill published last week entitled the Intoxicating Liquor-Public Order Bill 2008. Is it agreed to have a short briefing on the Bill before returning to our consideration of the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill 2008, to conclude at 4.45 p.m.? Agreed.
Intoxicating Liquor - Public Order Bill 2008: Discussion with Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.
I thank members of the select committee for facilitating me on this issue. In my recent public statements on this matter I asked Opposition parties to consider the early enactment of this legislation before the summer recess. I am anxious to give members as much information as I can at this stage on these legislative proposals.
I established an alcohol advisory group in January, with Dr. Gordon Holmes as chairman. Dr. Holmes had chaired a previous Government advisory group on this subject and expressed to me his concern that previous commissions which had examined the intoxicating liquor legislation did not have a mandate of sufficient clarity to examine the harmful aspects of alcohol consumption as a factor which would influence the formulation of the intoxicating liquor code.
I requested Dr. Holmes to examine key aspects of the law governing the sale and consumption of alcohol, focusing on three issues as follows: the increase in the number of supermarkets, convenience stores and petrol stations with off-licences and the manner and conditions of sale of alcohol products in such outlets, including below unit cost selling and special promotions; the increasing number of special exemption orders permitting longer opening hours being obtained by licensed premises; and the use, adequacy and effectiveness of existing sanctions and penalties, especially those directed towards combating excessive and under-age alcohol consumption.
The group engaged in a public consultation process and received approximately 200 submissions. Its report was presented to me at the end of March and I published it alongside the legislative proposals. The group made 31 recommendations, not all of which are being implemented in the Bill because the Government legislation programme provides for a comprehensive sale of alcohol Bill to be published this year. The larger Bill will modernise and streamline all the laws relating to the sale and consumption of alcohol by repealing the Licensing Acts 1833 to 2004, as well as the Registration of Clubs Acts 1904 to 2004, and replacing them with updated, consolidated, codified and streamlined provisions. This will give us an opportunity to examine all the relevant issues in a comprehensive manner.
I was so concerned by the reports I had received from the Garda Síochána and the general situation, of which most members are well aware, that I decided we needed short and immediate legislation to deal with the grosser abuses that have developed in the licensing code. The general scheme in the draft Bill is, by and large, based on recommendations made by the alcohol advisory group. The strategy underpinning the draft legislation is one which tackles the increased visibility and availability of alcohol through retail outlets with off-licences, while tightening the conditions under which premises with on-licences qualify for special exemption orders permitting them to remain open beyond normal licensing hours. The Bill specifically provides for improved enforcement and penalties, as well as strengthening public order provisions.
Regarding the sale of alcohol, applicants for a wine retailer's off-licence will be required to produce a District Court certificate to the Revenue Commissioners. At present, such off-licences can be acquired by simple application to the Revenue Commissioners. Under the legislation, the wine retailer's off-licence will become the same as any other off-licence and require District Court sanction. In addition, the grounds on which objection may be made to the grant of District Court certificates for spirit, beer and wine off-licences will be extended to include the suitability of licensed premises for the needs of local residents and the adequacy of the existing number of licensed premises in the neighbourhood. This is a substantial curtailment of the availability of such licences.
Off-sales of alcohol shall be permitted only between the hours of 10.30 a.m. and 10 p.m. - noon until 10 p.m. on Sundays - in the case of off-licences and mixed trading premises. Test purchasing of alcohol by persons under the age of 18 years, subject to necessary safeguards, will be introduced to ensure the strict application of the law on the sale of alcohol to minors in retail outlets.
With regard to extended trading hours, the grant of special exemption orders to nightclubs shall be made subject to compliance with fire safety standards. This is a serious omission in the current legislation and one we should not wait to remedy. The District Court will not grant a special exemption order for any premises unless satisfied that the special occasion will be conducted in a manner that will not cause undue inconvenience or nuisance to persons residing in the locality or create an undue threat to public order or safety. The granting of special exemption orders in respect of special events to which members of the public are admitted shall be made conditional on the premises having an adequate and fully operational CCTV system. It is important to note that while many nightclubs have CCTV systems, not all licensed premises which obtain special exemption orders have them in operation. They should.
The trading hours applicable to premises with theatre licences are to be made subject to the time limit provisions applicable to premises with on-licences. Statutory provisions that permit early opening for premises located in the vicinity of fairs and markets are to be repealed. The early morning pubs will cease to exist.
On sanctions, a minimum closure period of two days should apply in the case of temporary closure orders for a first offence. Fines for the sale of alcohol to under-age persons and for permitting drunkenness and disorderly conduct on licensed premises shall be increased. The Garda Síochána will be permitted to seize any bottle or container in the possession of a person who appears to be under the age of 18 years and which a garda suspects, with reasonable cause, contains alcohol that is being consumed, or intended to be consumed, by a person under 18 years in a place other than a private residence.
The legislation will provide that alcohol products must be displayed and sold in supermarkets and convenience stores in a specified area structurally separated from the rest of the premises. Where separation is not possible, alcohol products must be displayed and sold from behind a counter. Certain retail interests will state this imposes a great burden on them but there is a variable commencement section in the legislation. Immediate measures can be taken while the provision is phased in over a period of years. It is essential that we move in this direction.
On special alcohol promotion and discount sales, reduced price promotions and sales of alcohol are to be prohibited. Detailed regulations will be required to give effect to this provision.
The Garda Síochána will be permitted to seize bottles or containers containing alcohol where there is a reasonable apprehension of public disorder and require a person to leave the place concerned in a peaceable and orderly manner. Fines for public order offences are to be increased.
I hope to have a draft from the Attorney General by the end of this week. As soon as it is approved by the Government, I will circulate it to the members, after which we can resume discussions on the matter.
Members will not want to engage in a Second Stage debate but if they want to make some comments, I would be more than happy to facilitate them.
I want to make a few brief comments on the advisory group report and the heads published by the Minister. They are positive and welcome. Alcohol abuse is a growing problem but neither the recommendations nor the proposed legislation will address it adequately. There is a clear link between the abuse and availability of alcohol and public disorder. Between 2003 and 2007 there was a 57% increase in the number of public disorder offences. During the same period there was a dramatic increase in the number of outlets for the purchase of alcohol.
I welcome the proposal to limit the opening hours of off-licences and the new powers to be given to the Garda to seize alcohol in public places. I hope the Garda will be effective in this regard. I doubt that the restrictions on retail outlets will have a significant impact but I hope I am proven wrong in this regard. Given that we have so many retailers selling alcohol, the provision will only scratch the surface.
We can talk all we like about legislation and recommendations but if we do not enforce them, they are of no use. Unless sufficient resources are provided for the Garda, local authorities or other public bodies to ensure the legislation is enforced, we will have great difficulty and return to square one.
Let me flag one anomaly in the legislation that I hope can be addressed when the final version of the Bill is published. Head No. 14, to which the Minister referred in respect of restrictions on the promotion of cheap alcohol, seems to contain a loophole regarding supermarket loyalty cards. The legislation, as proposed, only addresses transactions at the point of sale. The loyalty cards offer a recoupment, at a future date, to purchasers of alcohol. Before Christmas, a number of retail outlets marketed the sale of alcohol on the basis that, in the months of January, February and March, one would receive vouchers therefor. This discriminates in favour of the major retailers rather than some of the smaller ones, which many believe are more responsible. The Minister might consider this in the Bill.
I, too, want to be positive, but do so with no great conviction in respect of this Bill. It is a modest measure and the Minister makes no further claims for it beyond its being so. I hope sincerely that it will work. The Opposition will facilitate the Bill's early passage, as the Minister has requested.
My lack of conviction stems from the nature of the factors that give rise to the abuse and misuse of alcohol in society generally and by young people, in particular. The Minister's initiative is based on the presumption that if one reduces the number of outlets, restructures those in existence and prohibits below-cost selling and special deals, it will somehow change the habits of the youth. I am sceptical about this.
I am not entirely persuaded of the merits of the trading hours provision. If one is leaving a pub and going to a party, which does not arise in the case of those of us with grey hairs but does in the case of a very large proportion of the population, one needs to get a bottle of wine. If in this case the off-licence is closed, one must buy the wine in the pub. Pubs that do not arrange to sell it will now do so and, therefore, not having a level playing pitch for pubs and off-licences will not make any difference.
It is obviously the case that off-licences can set up all over the place at present, which is not acceptable. Some of the measures the Minister proposes ought to be desirable in regulating the sale of alcohol. I am not quibbling with this and it is one reason I am minded to support the Bill. Regulation is desirable in itself but I am doubtful about the proposition that it will prevent the youth from embracing alcohol to the extent that some of them embrace it at present.
Like Deputy Naughten, I have particular reservations about the heads as published. For example, the Minister set out the physical lay out of supermarkets which will be entitled to sell alcohol. Premises must be restructured, the alcohol must be sold in a separate area with separate access and behind a counter. Today's modern sophisticated citizen who wants to buy a bottle of wine is being invited to go into a supermarket, approach the counter and ask for a bottle of their best red. One will not be able to browse the various wines on offer. I do not believe the youth of Ireland are drunk out of their heads at weekends because they drink wine. They drink beer and odd commodities of which I do not know the name. I do not believe they closely examine, say, Burgundies and say they will have that. Nor will they be going around with a better claret due to this Bill.
The Minister clearly feels galvanised into being seen to do something because of the extent of the problem with youth binge-drinking in particular. The drinking habit adults give youth is more to blame for it than what time, say, one can buy a bottle of wine or closing the early morning openings. It is news to me that the early morning houses, particularly as there are so few left in Dublin, greatly contribute to the disorder problem or the abuse of alcohol. There is a tradition as to why they exist. Perhaps the May Ball in Trinity College Dublin ends up in one of them once a year. One has to put up with the Ross O'Carroll-Kellys wherever one ends up in the evening.
I wish the Minister luck with this Bill. His hand is being forced and he must be seen to do something. It is a modest measure which we will not hold it up. It is positive regulation which will be introduced. I am not convinced, however, that the visibility of drink in a growing number of outlets is a contributory factor to the problem. It is much more complex than that. I look forward to the larger control of alcohol Bill being published. I hope the Minister is correct that this modest measure will make some improvements.
Along with other Members, I welcome this Bill as a first step in tackling the binge-drinking culture in society. There has been a drink culture for many years but it has changed in recent years. This may be due to our increased affluence, parents being too busy, the influence of the mass media or, as Deputy Rabbitte said, the in-your-face availability of alcohol. I hope the Bill's attempt to limit the number of off-licences stands the test of the diktats of the EU internal market. It should be in the interests of public health and the common good to ensure a limited number of outlets where alcohol is available and restrictions in opening hours.
Youth is often referred to by politicians and the media when discussing binge-drinking. Many of those involved in anti-social behaviour or public order offences are very hairy youths and are more in their 30s or 40s. It is not 17 year olds who are falling around the streets drunk off their heads in Dublin city centre on weekend nights. Although not addressed by the Bill, there is an association of the drug culture with the drink culture.
I am glad some of the problems identified in the past several years are being addressed. For example, the anomaly whereby the city council must give permission to the Garda to enter public parks to confiscate drink has been finally addressed. However, there is existing legislation to deal with other issues. I am concerned at the rise in dial-a-drink services where one orders drinks to one's house. Off-licences and vintners are passing their licences to the delivery person. In reality, the delivery person is selling alcohol at the doorstep because there is an exchange of cash. In a reply to a parliamentary question on the matter, the Minister stated legislation is in place to cover this area. Vintners, off-licence owners, the supermarkets and the Garda Commissioner must be informed of this aspect of the law to address the delivery of drink to young people at home.
There are several increases in fines but these must be examined again if we are serious about tackling some of the offences that dominate the headlines. Some of the fines are low. For example, the maximum fine for wilful obstruction is €400; the duty of the licensee to preserve order is subject to a fine of €5,000. Perhaps a higher maximum penalty might make some licence-holders take greater steps to prevent public disorder. I hope we will be able to make it a better Bill.
I welcome the fact that the legislation has been published and that the Minister has honoured his commitment that it would be, at the earliest opportunity. I would reiterate what has been said about facilitating the passing of the legislation. Notwithstanding the fact, as I am sure the Minister will accept, that this is far from the full story in terms of dealing with a most important public order issue - and even more importantly a public health issue - I was somewhat disappointed he did not address the issue of the proliferation of licensed premises.
There is no attempt or effort on the part of the Government to reduce the fairly staggering figure of some 4,300 outlets from which alcohol is readily available. That is effectively one premises for every 750 people in the country, and to my mind is very high and might have been addressed. The Minister, in the draft legislation, intimates an intention to deal with public order difficulties, which I welcome, and of course the issue of under age drinking. However, I wonder about enforcement and the fact there were a mere 14 prosecutions for the whole of last year against licensed premises, including off-licences, on-licences and restaurants, for alleged under age drinking. We have a problem in that there appears to be a difficulty regarding enforcement - there have been a mere 96 prosecutions in the last five years. That is an issue which must be urgently addressed.
I also regret that the Minister has not made any specific reference to the need to have a mandatory identity card scheme. There can be all the voluntary codes and schemes in the world, but they will not deal with the problem in an effective manner.
I urge the Minister to accept that a criminal justice response to alcohol-associated problems is perhaps only part of the solution. He should impress on his Cabinet colleagues and the incoming Taoiseach the need to establish a Cabinet sub-committee, involving himself, as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, as well as the Minister for Health and Children and the Minister for Education and Science, to ensure we can have a multifaceted approach to what is a real public health issue. The reason we are dealing yet again with legislation of this type is the fact that alcohol is a controlled substance. The reason we have controls is because of the abuse and the related dangers. I hope we can look beyond the justice area. I regard this as a welcome measure, but I question how comprehensive it is in the context of the very serious difficulties associated with binge drinking and the cultural attitude towards alcohol.
Obviously this is to be welcomed and there is, of course, good will on this side of the House to see it through quickly, as the Minister desires. The issue raised by Deputy Rabbitte is the one I have heard most about since the report of the Government advisory group was discussed into the media. That is, if alcohol cannot be acquired in off-licences and other outlets after 10 p.m., what is to stop people buying carry-outs from licensed premises?
Another phenomenon that is very worrying is the tendency for adults to drink very heavily over the weekend in private houses. What is emerging in some instances is very serious violence, even death. I know that interfering in private homes, etc., can give rise to enormous problems, but there have been a number of deaths and serious assaults arising from this type of activity. It is an area we need to focus on.
There are very few prosecutions as regards adults buying alcohol for minors and it is an underlying problem that is there all the time. There is usually an adult around somewhere to buy alcohol for younger people who are under age and want drink. One of the issues Dr. Gordon Holmes raised when he met the committee, was the difficulty in arriving at the basic unit cost of particular beverages. Has any progress been made in this regard? I am speaking in the context of below-cost selling and how one might arrive at the actual cost. I shall leave it at that, and I wish the Minister well with the Bill.
I congratulate the Minister and his officials on their publication of the draft legislation. Like other members, I have been reflecting on some of the Bill's recommendations. It is down to enforcement, an area in which we have been slack, in terms of the regulation of opening and closing hours. Let us be honest, we have all been in pubs at 2.30 a.m. or 3.30 a.m. which should have been closed at 11.30 p.m. This is part of the problem. I recall being in a pub in the UK some years ago and the Irish tried to carry their glasses onto the street as we were put out at the proper closing time. It all boils down to the fact that we seem to have a lax attitude towards enforcement.
I welcome some of the recommendations. I am not sure how effective they will be in reducing the amount of alcohol being consumed. I bow to the superior knowledge of my colleague, Deputy Rabbitte, in terms of the wine glut. When a person is so "trolleyed" at 3 a.m. or 4 a.m. the chances are he or she will drink any type of alcohol. I am most concerned that we should follow through in terms of enforcement. I have mentioned before that we need forceful policing in terms of zero tolerance.
I have a real problem with the fact a person who visits a nightclub and then wants to go elsewhere for something to eat should be able to do so in a safe environment. Normally, some 800 people could emerge from a nightclub, and only 12 people will cause trouble. However, these 12 are affecting the lives of the other 788. The right of the majority must be upheld, and on that basis the Minister must follow through in terms of enforcement. That is the key to everything. After that, it is down to disposable income, and very little can be done about that. People have a good deal of money now and they can spend it where they choose. Unfortunately, many of them choose to spend it on alcohol.
I thank the Deputy. As the Minister knows, the committee had a detailed engagement with Dr. Holmes. For the benefit of the committee, I know from speaking to Dr. Holmes, upon the publication of the Bill, that a number of the suggestions put to him by members here found their way into the report by way of concrete recommendations. I am glad we had some involvement in it.
One theme that arose in our discussions, which does not involve the Minister's Department, might nonetheless be conveyed to his Cabinet colleagues. The proliferation of off-licences, everybody agreed, was a major issue. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform can only have a limited role in that regard, in terms of applicants having to apply to the District Court for a certificate - and that is to be welcomed. However, there would not be off-licences if the owners did not get planning permission for them from local authorities. It is a major issue that local authorities are giving planning permissions for off-licences without any regard to the social consequences for particular areas, and that is a very real issue. It is, perhaps, something the Minister might convey to his Cabinet colleagues.
I thank all the members of the committee for the broad welcome they have given this measure. As Deputy Naughten rightly said, this Bill would not solve all the problems, and I never said it would. To tackle the problem of alcohol misuse in our country requires a multitude of initiatives which must be taken by many Departments. In so far as the responsibility lies with my Department, I would not accept Deputy Rabbitte's characterisation of this as a modest measure. It is actually a fundamental change of direction in the manner in which we have approached the formulation of our intoxicating liquor code. The trend in recent decades has been to liberalise the law in this area, to accept the argument that alcohol is a normal product in a marketplace. I do not accept that proposition and I believe the reason an intoxicating liquor code exists is because it is a substance which can give rise to misuse and which must be controlled. To be misguided by notions of competitiveness and market forces in this area will not help us resolve the problems that exist. That has been my point of departure in the formulation of this Bill.
It is a modest measure in another sense, as it is a short Bill; it does not contain multiple provisions. I am a firm believer in such a Bill. I have tried to isolate the areas of gross legislative misuse and deal with them in a short, simple measure. I have also tried to focus on items which would command substantial public support and not entangle us in the competing claims of the various vested interests involved. We will have to adjudicate on those competing claims when we look at the comprehensive legislation on the sale of alcohol.
Deputy Naughten raised the point about the supermarket loyalty cards. That issue is being addressed in the drafting of the measure. It will be dealt with in the Bill when it is published. I understand Deputy Rabbitte's conviction that the Bill might not lead to a radical change in culture, but it will start the process of addressing that change. Both Deputy Rabbitte and Deputy O'Shea were under a misapprehension about the question of sales after 10 p.m., although Deputy O'Shea fairly said he was repeating what he had heard in his constituency about the proposal. The current position is that an on-licence gives a person full power to sell off-licence. Therefore, a publican with an on-licence can also operate an off-licence, or can sell alcohol products that are taken off the premises. However, the restriction of 10 p.m. will apply to all premises, so a public house will not be able to sell alcohol for removal off the premises after that time, in the same way that a retailer with an off-licence cannot do so. Under this Bill, a person cannot purchase a bottle of wine at 11 p.m. to take home.
If that can be enforced in pubs across Ireland, then I believe in the tooth fairy.
With respect, on-licensed traders have been quite compliant with the legislation. Deputy Connick referred to the fact that he has often been in a public house in the early hours of the morning, but he should note that a great number of special exemption orders have been given to standard public houses in recent years which permit them to stay open until 2.30 a.m. That is entirely lawful trading under current arrangements.
Deputy Rabbitte also raised the issue of pubs with early opening hours. We are now prohibiting sales in off-licences from 7.30 a.m. until 10.30 a.m. Public houses are not in operation before those hours. By extinguishing the right to sell in the early morning pubs, we are creating a level playing field between the off-licensed outlets and the licensed premises, as the earliest time one will be able to acquire a drink is 10.30 a.m. Were we to do otherwise, the ban on off-licensed premises selling drink before 10.30 a.m. could be circumvented by the early morning pubs.
The proposition that the housewife in Castleknock who cannot get access to her off-licence at 9.30 a.m. will immediately head down the docks to find an early morning pub is the view of a particular bureaucratic mind.
We must secure equal treatment between the various actors involved. Deputy Rabbitte also touched on physical separations between the buyer and the seller. The buyer will of course be able to browse among the different bottles of claret if there is a specified area in the establishment. Most establishments which deal in wine have a specified area exclusively devoted to the sale of wine. There is no requirement in this Bill that all sales should be from behind the counter. What is envisaged in the larger establishments is that all sales should be separate from any other trading. Where there is a mixed trading context, there must be a separation for the sale of alcohol. In smaller trading outlets such as petrol stations, there will be a requirement to sell behind the counter because of the small size of the establishment concerned.
This separation will impose a considerable burden on the retail sector, and for that reason it will take a number of years to implement it fully. In return for the deferral of that implementation, I will expect immediate measures from supermarkets towards segregation. An example would be to have drinks available on a particular aisle that has a turnstile at either end. It would be a very substantial burden to require every establishment immediately to have a shop within a shop. That will happen in the medium term and that will be the culture in which drink will be sold in this country. If we do not treat it with respect in the manner in which it is being sold outside licensed premises, then we will continue to have serious problems.
Deputy Ó Snodaigh raised the question of the EU directive. We will have to notify the EU of any regulations we draw up that confer powers under this Bill. Deputy Flanagan raised the issue of the proliferation of licences. There is a degree of misapprehension about this. The supermarkets are buying full public house licences and using them as the basis for their off-licence business. They find it more onerous to go to court and acquire a new off-licence, which they would need to sell alcohol other than wine. They buy the licence for a six figure sum, and it is then extinguished, generally in a rural area.
Does that give them permission to sell alcohol at more than one location?
No. Given the volume of sales that can occur in supermarkets, it is a valuable franchise for them. The proliferation does not happen because the small rural pub has its licence extinguished and the licence is then transferred to an urban retail outlet. That is what has been happening in recent years.
The other element of proliferation is related to the wine licences. A retailer can currently apply to the Revenue Commissioners to get one but this Bill will oblige him or her to go to court. That is a very substantial restriction on the proliferation of wine licenses, because it will not be worth the candle to go to court for the great number of small retailers simply to get a wine retailer's off-licence. We are also subjecting the off-licence application in the District Court to all the rigours of objection which a full on-licence would require. That is a change and will allow substantial public objection to further off-licences. Therefore, I do not agree with the argument that this Bill does not address the proliferation of licences.
Deputy Flanagan also raised the question of the mandatory national identity card scheme. There is a Garda card for younger persons, but if we want a national identity card, we will have to provide some form of national identification for every citizen. That is a major project and I do not see us agreeing on it and enacting the necessary legislation for it between now and the summer recess. It is a debate that should take place, but I do not believe it can arise under this Bill.
Is the Minister favourably disposed to it in the medium term?
It is something that is worth examining.
I agree with Deputy O'Shea that there is a very heavy amount of consumption taking place in some private homes at weekends, which is a very serious phenomenon. In some Garda reports it has led to many public order difficulties and even homicides have been attributed to this activity.
I did not respond to Deputy Ó Snodaigh's remarks on retailers offering a "dial a can" service. This is illegal under existing legislation, which brings us to the question of enforcement. One of the measures in this Bill that will be helpful in this regard is the power afforded to the Minister to draw up regulations to prohibit promotions by off-licences, which will encompass any promotions of a "dial a can" variety. Lack of information about the existence of such a facility will go a long way to eradicating it. The "dial a can" issue also raises difficult questions of EU law. As Deputy Rabbitte will be quick to remind me, there is nothing to stop a person purchasing a crate of wine from France and having another person bring it into this State. I confess I have done the same myself.
All speakers referred to enforcement and I agree it is key. Deputies Charles Flanagan and Connick pointed to the low number of prosecutions. I am confident it will be possible to enforce this legislation. An issue I have raised with the Garda Commissioner is an important provision in the Criminal Justice Act 2006. Section 184 of that Bill provides for the imposition of fixed penalties for persons who are drunk and disorderly. These fixed penalties can be administered in a Garda station, not generally. It is important that we bring this provision into operation in tandem with the new legislation, and I have communicated that view to the Garda Commissioner. It is two years since the enactment of the Criminal Justice Act. This provision will be of major assistance to the Garda in enforcing the law in this area.
Deputy Flanagan raised the issue of the length of time it can take to secure a prosecution. The powers of seizure being given to the Garda under this new legislation, if brought into operation in parallel with powers to impose fixed penalties on persons who are drunk and disorderly, will go a long way towards effective enforcement of the legislation. We will have a further opportunity to discuss all of this. I thank members for their time.
Will the Minister clarify a point? He mentioned on a previous occasion that he would refer either the heads and general scheme of the Bill or the full Bill to the committee. Is that for the purpose of allowing us to engage in a wider consultation process if minded to do so?
It is for the committee to decide how to conduct its business. The heads of the Bill are there and the committee can engage in consultation on those if it so wishes. When drafting of the Bill is completed, I will take Second Stage in one of the Houses and proceed accordingly.
I thank the Minister. We will recommence our Committee Stage consideration of the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill 2008 after a brief suspension to facilitate the departmental officials.
Sitting suspended at 3.40 p.m. and resumed at 3.45 p.m.