Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

SELECT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 10 Jun 2009

2009 Annual Output Statement — Department of Defence.

The purpose of today's meeting is to consider the annual output statement for 2009 of the Department of Defence and the Revised Estimates for the Department's group of Votes. The Dáil has ordered that the following Revised Estimates for Public Services be referred to this committee for our consideration: Vote 36, pertaining to the Department of Defence and Vote 37, pertaining to Army pensions. I propose that we consider the annual output statement and the Revised Estimates together. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I thank the Minister, Deputy O'Dea, and his officials for attending the meeting to assist in our consideration of the annual output statement and Revised Estimates. Unfortunately, I expect the meeting will have to be suspended at 5.30 p.m. to facilitate business in the Dáil. I invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to discuss with the committee the Revised Estimates for my Department's group of Votes and the annual output statement for 2009. The annual output statement is designed to match key outputs and strategic impacts to financial and staffing resources for the financial year. Information on performance against targets for 2008 is contained in the statement. The output statement describes the joint outputs of the military and civil elements of the defence organisation, with outputs grouped under five distinct programmes. The estimated expenditure on each of the five programmes represents the costs for the anticipated levels of activity for the current year and the associated outputs under each of the programme headings. I am pleased to announce that the outputs set in last year's statement were, in general, achieved to a high standard. Further details of the five programmes are contained in the output statement circulated to members.

The combined Estimates for my Department provide for gross expenditure of €1,031 million in 2009. As in other areas of public expenditure, the level of expenditure on defence this year must take account of the very difficult state of the public finances. The gross Estimate for Vote 36, pertaining to the Department of Defence, represents an overall reduction of 6% compared with last year's spend. However, the impact of this reduction is mitigated to some degree by several factors, including the substantial investment in modern equipment, training and infrastructure for the Defence Forces which has taken place in the past ten years, and the reduced cost to the Defence Vote in 2009 of the Chad mission arising from its changeover from European Union to United Nations command in March of this year. The Defence Estimate includes provision for the pay and allowances of an average of some 10,200 Permanent Defence Force personnel, 800 civilians employed with the Defence Forces throughout the State and 370 Civil Service staff. It also provides for the pay of members of the reserve while on full-time training. Vote 37, pertaining to Army pensions, provides for the payment of more than 10,000 service-related pensions and some 1,100 disability-related benefits to former members of the Defence Forces and their spouses and children.

The recent Government decision on measures to achieve reductions in public service numbers is being implemented in the Defence Forces. From 27 March 2009 to the end of 2010, no public service vacancy, however arising, may be filled by recruitment, promotion, or payment of an allowance for the performance of duties at a higher grade. Prior to the decision of 27 March, recruitment to the Defence Forces was suspended in late 2008, with the exception of medical officers. That was necessary to meet the reduction of 3% in payroll costs for 2009 which applied to the Defence Forces in common with other areas of the public service. This step was taken pending a review of the best means by which to achieve this reduction. The implications of the Government decision for the Defence Forces are under consideration in consultation with the military authorities and the Department of Finance. Clarification is being sought, for example, with regard to advancements in rank. These include the commissioning of cadets and advancement to three-star private of apprentices on completion of their apprenticeship. The terms of the employment contracts of certain categories of personnel with regard to fixed-term promotion are also being clarified. The effects of the measures are constantly monitored, with particular regard to the operational requirements of the Defence Forces.

The Defence Forces have improved in every respect since 2000 through the implementation of the White Paper. This represents a significant public service success story. The organisation is in a healthy state both in terms of personnel and equipment. It is intended, within the resources available, to maintain the capacity of the organisation to operate effectively across all roles. This will represent a significant challenge in the coming years. The men and women of the Defence Forces have over the years risen admirably to that challenge of change and modernisation. They are now being asked, with other public servants, to rise to this challenge and I am confident they will do so with the same sense of public service they have displayed in the past. The input of the representative associations will continue to be sought in the period ahead. Significant developments have taken place on the equipment front in recent years that have spanned the Army, the Air Corps and the Naval Service. The equipment programmes have been instrumental in ensuring Defence Forces personnel have the most modern equipment to undertake tasks assigned to them by the Government.

Despite the current very difficult economic environment, the allocation in the Defence Estimate will allow us to make further real progress on the ongoing programmes of investment in equipment and infrastructure. On the equipment front, the main focus in 2009 is on the procurement of light tactical armoured vehicles, LTAVs, and general purpose 4 x 4 vehicles for the Army, and the ship replacement programme for the Naval Service. Significant investment has been made in replacing the aircraft in the Air Corps in recent years, with new trainer aircraft, a new helicopter squadron and a significant mid-life upgrade to the CASA maritime patrol aircraft.

The acquisition of the LTAVs is a top priority for the Defence Forces, given the extensive nature of their roles on overseas peace support missions, the threat from improvised explosive devices and the potential for hostile fire in certain operational environments. Force protection remains a key issue in overseas peace support operations and it is very important that vehicles such as these are available to our personnel. A contract for the supply of 27 vehicles to the Defence Forces was awarded to BAE Systems based in South Africa in December 2008. The LTAVs will complement the Mowag armoured personnel carriers, APCs, in the conduct of conventional and peace support operations and will fill a gap that exists between soft-skinned vehicles and the Mowag APCs. The contract will run over a period of three years from 2008 to 2010 and has a value of €19.6 million, inclusive of VAT. An initial down payment of €8 million was made in 2008 and a further stage payment of €7.5 million will be made this year, with the balance due to be paid in 2010. Sixteen of the vehicles will be delivered towards the end of this year and 11 in 2010.

With regard to the Naval Service, following the first two stages of the tender competition for two offshore patrol vessels, a preferred bidder has been selected and contract negotiations are expected to conclude shortly. The matter will then be brought to the Government for approval on financing. Subject to that approval, it is expected that the new vessels will be delivered for acceptance by the Naval Service on a phased basis between 2011 and 2013. If the Department exercises its option of purchasing a third offshore patrol vessel, a mutually agreeable delivery date will be negotiated. The first stage in the procurement process for a larger extended patrol vessel, EPV, also has been completed. However, it is intended to complete the negotiations on the two offshore patrol vessels before initiating the second stage of the EPV competition. The acquisition of these modern new vessels will ensure that the Naval Service will be fully equipped to carry out its day-to-day roles in enforcing the State's sovereign rights over our waters and fisheries and in meeting Ireland's obligations in the area of maritime safety and security and fisheries protection.

As I noted earlier, together with the extensive investment in Defence Forces equipment, we also have made substantial investment in infrastructure, accommodation and training facilities. This investment programme will continue in 2009. The provision for capital building works this year is €14.6 million, as well as a carry-over of €2.5 million from 2008. Major projects will shortly be completed in the Naval Base, Haulbowline; Aiken Barracks, Dundalk; the Defence Forces Training Centre, Curragh; Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel; Custume Barracks, Athlone; and Kilworth Camp, Cork. Major projects are under way or due to start this year in a number of other locations. As members will recall, a small number of barracks were closed earlier this year. The consolidation of the Defence Forces formations into a smaller number of locations will improve their overall efficiency, reduce overheads and provide better opportunities for essential collective training. At the time of the closure, I indicated there would be a need for some upgrade of facilities at the receiving barracks. The planned investment in Custume Barracks and Aiken Barracks is part of the upgrade plan and will provide improved gymnasium facilities to all the troops based in both locations.

Turning now to the Reserve Defence Force, the plan to enhance the reserve is ongoing and significant progress has been made to date in implementing the plan. The reserve has been reorganised along similar lines to the Permanent Defence Force and there has been increased investment in the reserve with new equipment, clothing and opportunities for improved training. A pilot scheme for the integrated reserve was run in 2007 and continued into 2008 and approximately 300 reservists completed the pilot programme. Options for developing the integration concept further are being considered.

The primary objective in the current year is to consolidate the significant gains that have been made in developing the reserve. All members must be afforded the opportunity to undertake training, as outlined in the Reserve Defence Force review implementation plan. This will be undertaken, to the greatest extent possible, within the current budgetary constraints. It was necessary to cap the strength of the Army reserve and the Naval Service reserve earlier this year until the budgetary position for the year was known. However, following a review and examination of reserve personnel numbers and budgets for 2009, I am now satisfied there is sufficient provision to allow for paid training for the current strength of the Army and the Naval Service reserve. Accordingly, I recently approved the commencement of limited recruitment to fill vacancies which may arise due to existing reserve members resigning or being discharged during 2009, in the normal manner.

The reduced budgetary provision and the Government moratorium on recruitment to the public service have prevented the recruitment of members of the reserve to the Permanent Defence Force for the purpose of overseas service and this project has been postponed for the foreseeable future. The Reserve Defence Force has been selected for review as part of the 2009 to 2011 phase of the Government's value for money and policy review initiative. It is anticipated that this review will assist in informing decisions regarding the future of the reserve.

I now wish to refer to Ireland's commitment to overseas operations. Ireland's participation in peace support operations, including those under the EU umbrella, represents a continuation and enhancement of our long and honourable tradition of support for international peace and security in support of the United Nations. The Defence Forces have brought great honour to Ireland through their participation in peace support operations throughout the world.

At present, Ireland's main overseas commitment is to the United Nations Mission in the Central African Republic and Chad, MINURCAT. When the mandate of the EUFOR mission expired on 15 March 2009, it was replaced by MINURCAT, which was established under the authority of UN Security Council Resolution 1861. MINURCAT assumed operational control of the United Nations force of 2,085 personnel, including 1,877 troops re-hatted from eight EUFOR contributors. The Irish contingent, which had been deployed in Chad with EUFOR, transferred to the authority of MINURCAT on 15 March 2009.

The Defence Forces currently deploy a mechanised infantry battalion in Goz Beida, south-eastern Chad, consisting of two mechanised manoeuvre companies and support elements. The contingent comprises a total of 408 personnel. An additional 13 personnel serve in the force headquarters in Abeche. I am pleased to state that an Irish officer, Brigadier General Gerald Aherne, has been appointed deputy force commander of MINURCAT.

At present, the other main Defence Forces deployments on UN-authorised missions are to the NATO-led operation in Kosovo, KFOR, with 239 personnel and to the EU-led operation in Bosnia and Herzegovina, called Operation Althea, with 44 personnel. In Kosovo, 221 Irish personnel comprising an APC mounted infantry company group serve as part of a multinational task force. The other 18 Irish personnel deployed with KFOR are serving at force headquarters. The Irish contingent serving with Operation Althea is located at the headquarters in Camp Butmir, Sarajevo. This mission is expected to change later this year from its current configuration of some 2,200 troops to a support and training operation which will involve some 200 military personnel, at which stage the Irish troops will be withdrawn.

I wish to turn to EU security and defence developments. European security and defence policy, ESDP, is an integral part of the Common Foreign and Security Policy. It includes the EU's international obligations to the maintenance of international peace and security. The ability of the European Union to contribute to conflict prevention, peacekeeping and crisis management continues to be of primary importance to member states and is carried out within the context of ESDP. The tasks to be carried out under ESDP are the Petersberg Tasks, which were originally agreed in the Amsterdam treaty of 1999. These tasks have been further elaborated in the Lisbon treaty to include disarmament operations, military advice and assistance in the context of security sector reform, conflict prevention and post-conflict stabilisation. I am of the opinion that this provision more accurately reflects the type of military and civilian missions the European Union is now undertaking and may undertake in future.

Ireland's participation in the development of ESDP is fully consistent with our policy of military neutrality and our commitment to international peace and security. It also enhances our position on the international stage as it is aimed primarily at conflict prevention, peacekeeping, humanitarian missions and crisis management. In this regard it is appropriate at this time to mention that ratification of the Lisbon treaty will not affect Ireland's policy of military neutrality. The Lisbon treaty does not alter the essential features of ESDP.

There are significant safeguards for Ireland's position of military neutrality in the Lisbon treaty. First, it states "national security remains the sole responsibility of each Member State". Second, all decisions on ESDP must be taken by unanimity, which means Ireland has a veto on ESDP issues and deployments. The treaty contains explicit provisions that ESDP "shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States", which was inserted at Ireland's request to protect our policy of military neutrality. Moreover, under the Lisbon treaty the adoption of any common defence arrangement would require the unanimous approval of all member states, including Ireland. As we are all aware, Ireland remains constitutionally debarred from participation in an EU common defence without the prior consent of the people in a specific referendum on the issue.

Our main priority in terms of the European Security and Defence Policy, ESDP, is the continued improvement of the EU's capability to undertake peace support operations as reflected in the agreed range of tasks to meet the objectives of the Headline Goal 2010. The most high profile aspect of the headline goal was undoubtedly the decision of the EU to acquire the capacity to deploy force packages at high readiness, commonly known as battle groups, in response to a crisis. The EU battle group provides a mechanism by which the Union can respond with direct and immediate action to an evolving crisis.

Ireland participated in the Nordic battle group, which was on standby from 1 January 2008 until 30 June 2008. Other contributors were Sweden, acting as framework nation, Finland, Norway and Estonia. With regard to Ireland's participation in future battle groups, we are committed in principle to participating in the Nordic battle group in 2011. It will be on standby for the first six months of 2011. As yet, the contribution that Ireland will make to it has not been finalised. Preliminary discussions have also taken place regarding our possible participation in the proposed Austrian-German battle group that will be on standby in the second six months of 2012. Ireland's participation in battle groups is a further development in the capabilities of the Defence Forces. It reflects our desire to be able to respond across the whole spectrum of operations in support of and in response to requests from the UN for capable and interoperable forces.

The investment that the Government has continued to make in the Defence Forces since the 2000 White Paper means that the modern Defence Forces have the capacity and professional capabilities required to be able to contribute to higher end, more mobile and more deployable forces such as battle groups. This would have been an impossible challenge for the Defence Forces a mere ten years ago. Indeed, without the targeted investment strategy and concerted modernisation programme implemented under the White Paper over the past ten years, we could never have had the successful deployments to Liberia and, more recently, Chad. We are now reaping the benefits of greater efficiency, effectiveness and capability across the modern defence organisation as a whole. The planned 2009 expenditure is designed to build on this success so as to maintain and consolidate the capability of the defence organisation to meet future challenges and to undertake all the roles assigned by the Government.

Ireland continues to contribute effectively and efficiently to operations, both military and civil, in the ESDP area. We also aim to foster and encourage the ongoing development of EU-UN co-operation in the areas of humanitarian action, crisis management, peacekeeping and conflict prevention. In this regard, it should be noted that all military operations launched by the EU were supported by or in support of the United Nations.

The capacity of the Union to deploy military forces is but one element in the full range of policy instruments available to the EU, which includes diplomatic, political, financial and economic instruments. While the EU conducted 12 operations across three continents in 2008, only two of those were purely military crisis management operations. Of the 28 operations launched to date by the EU under the ESDP, 20 were defined as being civilian missions and only eight were military operations.

I would like to update the committee on the office of emergency planning in my Department. The office has recently developed a revised and expanded roles and responsibilities document, which forms part of its strategic emergency planning guidance and identifies the lead Department concept as one of the central principles of strategic emergency planning. The revised document sets out the lead Department and those Departments that have a supporting role in more than 40 different emergency scenarios. It will bring clarity to the responsibilities of Departments and will also help them in preparing and updating their emergency plans.

The Government task force on emergency planning continues to meet on a regular basis and recently received a comprehensive presentation from the Department of Health and Children on the public health situation with regard to human swine influenza. The task force will continue to monitor the situation in conjunction with the Department and the Health Service Executive.

I wish to inform the committee that preparations for the decentralisation of my Department's Dublin-based staff to Newbridge are at an advanced stage. The number of posts to be relocated is approximately 200 civil servants and 45 military personnel. Over 90% of the Civil Service staff are now in place in anticipation of the move. The new building to house the Department in Newbridge is under construction and is scheduled to be completed in December 2009.

The Government decision on decentralisation also provides for the transfer of Defence Forces headquarters staff to the Curragh, County Kildare. A site has been selected and planning permission obtained. The Office of Public Works has advised that it expects to be in a position to invite tenders for this project over the coming months. The building is expected to be completed by the end of 2011.

I commend the defence and Army pensions Estimates to the committee and will be happy to respond to any questions that members might have.

We have five minutes until the vote is called, at which time we will break. How much time have I available? Are we not meeting until 7.30 p.m.?

The Deputy will not be going for that long. Since the Minister spoke for 20 minutes, I will allow the Deputy the same latitude.

That is great. I welcome the Minister and his officials to what is probably the most important session that we will have this year. It is crucial that Opposition spokespersons be given the opportunity to question the various expenditures within the Defence Forces as much as possible with the information available, which is not finely detailed.

The Defence Forces are a model for other Departments in the manner in which they embraced reform, implemented the White Paper on Defence and put economies in place. We will obviously be asking about some of those today and their potential effects on the Defence Forces. Over the years, however, the Defence Forces have been better prepared for the current cuts than other Departments that have not been similarly streamlined.

I have a number of questions on decentralisation. Members of the Defence Forces are confused and genuinely concerned about the arrangements to transfer people to the Curragh. The Minister gave a positive commitment and made a statement on decentralisation to the Curragh. Will he confirm his intention to see decentralisation occur in the timeframe outlined today? People have been decentralised to Newbridge, but not to the Curragh. From a logistical point of view, decentralising to the latter will make life difficult as regards the transfer of information, interaction between personnel and so on. This goes without saying.

While I am discussing decentralisation to the Curragh, some 3,000 people already work there. On several occasions I have raised the issue of the provision of a crèche. The Minister established a committee to consider the matter. Has it reported yet? If it has, I am baffled by how long it took. Will the Minister provide our committee with an update in this respect?

Regarding facilities, the ombudsman recently issued a report. The ombudsman's office is being internationally examined as a good example of how a defence forces ombudsman can answer and adjudicate on the complaints of the forces members. However, the Minister is in agreement that there is a major difficulty in terms of the building in which the ombudsman is forced to operate. The building is an embarrassment when people from other parts of the world come to meet the ombudsman. We have an innovative process in place. I referred to the building as sick and it is not fit for use for this office. I ask the Minister to refer to that in his reply.

I visited the Curragh recently and saw the modern equipment. I saw this in visits I made around the country. The Army is superbly equipped at the moment; its equipment is as good as that of any army in the world. There was an accident in Cork recently and I wish the officer a speedy recovery. This involved short-range anti-tank equipment. In view of the fact that this was the second accident in a year with this type of equipment, is there something wrong with the equipment? There is probably a military court examining this matter at the moment.

There is a vote in the Dáil. We will adjourn for a few minutes and return after the vote.

Will we give people an opportunity to have food and return at 6.30 p.m.?

No, we will come back immediately after the vote.

Sitting suspended at 5.30 p.m. and resumed at 5.55 p.m.

I referred to the recent accident in Cork and I am sure the Minister will provide Members with clarification on why this was the second incident involving similar equipment.

Regarding the moratorium on promotion and recruitment, serious concern exists within the Defence Forces that it could do immense damage in an organisation founded on a chain of command. Freezing recruitment will affect the age profile of the Defence Forces and because of the nature of the tasks that personnel have to carry out, it is critical that its members are young and have a high level of fitness. A continual intake of troops is very important to keep the organisation fresh. I understand the Minister has made some concessions on the moratorium in the Reserve Defence Force, or at least this was mentioned in a news article I saw.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform seems to have secured three chief superintendents and ten superintendents for the Garda Síochána. What promotions has the Minister achieved for the Defence Forces? Has he had any recent discussions with the Minister for Finance on key appointments? It is critical that this moratorium is considered very carefully in the light of overseas duties as it will limit our capacity and capability for future missions abroad. Will the Minister clarify whether this will be the first year in the history of the cadets that there will be no cadet school? It is only fair that those who are sitting the leaving certificate will be able to consider going to cadet school. Perhaps the Minister has made an announcement on this since I spoke to him in the Dáil about it.

I understand the Minister has the findings of the medical report about which I have been asking him for almost two years. When will he publish it and when will it be available? As he has accepted, the medical corps in the army falls far short of what it should be. The establishment figure in the White Paper was 46. At present we have 23 personnel and this changes from time to time. I understand the medical report includes fundamental changes to overhaul the entire Defence Forces medical system. Will the Minister outline some of these changes? What will be the changes in the structures of the Defence Forces? Will it be more centrally controlled than it is at present?

There are two Estimates in the medical expenses subhead and a further subhead. One is with regard to those incurred in the forces and the other is where external people were brought in. It strikes me that the external people cost more than the medical expenses incurred within the forces. The Minister might comment on the outsourcing of medical duties for the Army.

The procurement process for the Naval Service is ongoing. In view of the hairshirt budgets we will be facing over the next three years, does the Minister believe the money will be available to purchase new vessels? It is important that we be given an assurance in that regard. These vessels are badly needed in our continuing fight against drugs smuggling. We have a major problem in terms of policing our coastline and, while the Naval Service and Revenue's custom enforcement officers are doing a very good job, they are only able to intercept a fraction of the drugs landed on our coasts. County Kerry alone has 300 miles of coastline, which is almost impossible to police properly. Even the major haul made off the Cork coast last year was more of an accident than anything else.

The Defence Forces not only provides cash escorts for banks but, through the Air Corps, provides air support for them. How much do these operations cost and what is the total budget for cash escorts? Are the banks refunding the total cost of this or is the taxpayer paying a portion?

What are the ground rules for the ministerial air transport service? I accept that Ministers must at times avail of the service to attend important functions. However, can a Minister ask the Air Corps to facilitate him or her in attending a party political function? I ask for precise figures on the cost of ministerial air transport in 2008 and the provision for 2009.

I have read in the newspapers that Queen Sofía of Spain used Ryanair to fly to the UK to visit her brother. Are Ministers encouraged to use commercial airlines such as Ryanair and Aer Arann rather than the Air Corps when flying internally? I ask the Secretary General to indicate the cost of transporting a Minister from Galway to Dublin. Aer Arann is offering a return ticket between Galway and Dublin for €78, which is cheaper than using the Air Corps. Aer Arann would charge a Minister €61.98 to fly to Sligo tomorrow. What would be the cost of using an Air Corps aircraft for that journey? I recall that a Minister once used the ministerial air transport service to fly to a pub opening.

One of the biggest initiatives taken by the Minister last year was the closure of four barracks. This was justified as an exercise in the better use of personnel but I want to know the costs of redeploying personnel and their families. Given that we will not sell the properties concerned for some time to come, how much will it cost to maintain and secure them? We will lose out if we leave them vacant. Has consideration been given to community use of the barracks?

I commend everyone involved in the Chad mission, which has been very successful thus far. I understand that some of the equipment for the mission incurred significant damage while in transit to Chad. What was the cost of repairs and did the company responsible for transportation reimburse the Department for the damage? I recently spoke in the Dáil about the issue of fuel supplies for the mission. The transfer of the mission from EUFOR to the UN was not smooth and this was noticed by people in the area. One would think an adequate supply of fuel would be kept so patrols could continue. One would also expect there to be adequate fuel for air conditioning, cooking, lighting etc. There was a major problem at that time and the Minister mentioned that it would be rectified within three weeks — I hope that has been done. A convoy had to go all the way to N'Djamena to collect a fuel supply and it makes our Defence Forces there more vulnerable to attack. It gives the rebel forces and bandits, which are there in abundance, greater confidence to act more freely if that supervision is not there.

A newspaper report this year stated that there is an increased allocation in the Estimates this year for the Asgard. Since the Asgard is still under the sea, is that money for leasing vessels? I noted a recent newspaper report that somebody offered to salvage the Asgard and that request was refused, but I do not know on what grounds. The longer it is under 60 m of sea water the more likely it is to disintegrate and be damaged beyond salvage.

A celebrated renaissance ship in Sweden, the Vasa, was underwater for approximately 300 or 400 years and it was salvaged. One can see it in a museum in Stockholm. It was bigger and less sturdy than the Asgard and it was salvaged very successfully. I cannot see why this decision was taken. Two reports were completed on the condition of the Asgard, but we have not seen them. It would be right to make those reports available. I thank the Chairman for his patience. I understand I will be allowed to speak again.

I welcome the Minister and his officials. I thank the Minister for his statement to the committee. I do not intend to go back over the points Deputy Deenihan made, which does not give me much scope, but I will do my best. I raised with the Minister PDFORRA's desire to become part of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions — not in the context of the right to strike or in any way undermining or being subversive to the State — and he said there is a parallel system available. I have had continuing representations from PDFORRA, however, and it is not satisfied with that. Is it possible to come up with a formula whereby there could be some link between PDFORRA and ICTU which would not compromise the situation on the Defence Forces being answerable to the Government to carry out the lawful instruction in all instances of the civil authority?

I will refer to a number of issues in the Estimates later. Regarding the strategic emergency planning guidance, another issue I raised with the Minister recently is cyber-warfare. He mentioned here that the revised document sets out the lead Department, which is the Department of Defence. Has there been any advance in securing the State against cyber-warfare? I previously mentioned in the House the experience in Georgia and Estonia. These are very serious issues whereby the State's whole electronic system could be completely crippled in a doomsday scenario. What has happened here to advance the State's capacity to move forward?

Deputy Deenihan mentioned recruitment and promotion, and some very difficult cases have arisen. A member of the Army was to be promoted to sergeant, provided he was cleared at medical level, but because of the embargo that person has not been promoted to the new grade. I understand from the Minister that there will be some limited recruitment to the Reserve Defence Force. I will return to that issue later when I examine some figures.

I have received some disturbing representations on the Irish Red Cross. Will the Minister inform me how the Government, in the person of the Minister for Defence, nominates the chair of the Red Cross and 14 members of its general council? It has been put to me that it is against the international ethos of the organisation that these appointments should be made politically. It has been alleged that the Minister is represented on the board of the Red Cross, that there are very serious governance difficulties and that it is underperforming nationally and internationally. I am informed that it has an appalling industrial relations record, a very high staff turnover and a history of dismissing its general secretaries. I have no way of knowing or checking the veracity of what has been alleged to me and I am asking the Minister to respond to this. One point that has been made to me very strongly is that the same person has been appointed for the fourth time for a three-year term with the Red Cross. It has also been alleged that the political allegiances of the people who are appointed to the Red Cross — the chairperson and the 14 other people — tend to be a determinant in selecting them.

Much public and State money is donated to the Red Cross and I find those allegations alarming. I ask the Minister to put me at ease in that regard. The knowledge is within his Department on how effectively and efficiently the Red Cross is performing in Ireland and overseas. It has also been alleged to me that the recent appointment of the chairman has caused much disquiet in the Irish Red Cross in terms of the necessary governance reform that, it has been alleged, needs to be put in place. I have been told that best practice governance is long overdue to ensure this organisation performs to its highest level. It is not alleged that the employees or others in the Irish Red Cross are underperforming but that the structure and governance is the problem. I would be grateful if the Minister would put my mind at rest with regard to the allegations made to me.

The Minister said that members of the Reserve Defence Force were to participate overseas with the Permanent Defence Force, but because of cutbacks that has been cancelled. When will we get back to that? This was due to happen towards the end of the year but it does not appear that it will happen in the current year. Does the Minister intend to put this project in place as soon as possible?

What is the current position of St. Bricin's military hospital? Over the past five years what has been the average number of patients in the hospital at any given time? It has been alleged to me that there was a very low level of activity in that hospital. With regard to departmental staff, there is to be a reduction of 15 in personnel this year from the 385 there last year. At what level will the staff cuts take place? Will they be at senior level?

There is to be a cutback in the funding for the chaplains stipend, which is to be reduced from €1.322 million to €1.29 million. What does this signify? Is this a reduction in services or does it indicate a decrease in religious observance among members of the Permanent Defence Force?

There are some rather large decreases in Defence Forces allowances; for example, subsistence allowances have been reduced from €10.6 million to €8.8 million. I take it this is in line with Government policy. What is the position on the Border duty allowance? The provision is to be reduced from €5.5 million to €4.7 million. Issues relating to the Border duty allowance were raised with the Comptroller and Auditor General and I raised the matter in the House. The Minister explained the context in which that payment is still being made, but what is the position currently?

Children's allowance is being reduced and I take it this relates to the allowance for overseas service. It has not decreased a great deal but why is there a reduction from €101,000 to €96,000? The security duty allowance has also been reduced from €13 million to €11.3 million. What has brought that about?

I said I would return to reserve training and pay. There is a considerable decrease in this compared to 2008, from €6.6 million to €4.9 million. How is this saving being effected? When the Minister indicated there will be a restricted level of recruitment to the Reserve Defence Force, what does he mean exactly?

The issue of the Asgard II was raised by Deputy Deenihan. I understand an offer was made by an outside group to salvage the ship. What are the Minister’s thoughts on the matter? Is there any way even at this late stage of knowing the current condition of the Asgard II? Is there anything worth salvaging? I note a small decrease in the Estimate for officers’ pay. Does that reflect the ban on promotions?

By and large, these are the issues which interest me. Office premises expenses and maintenance are to be reduced from €1.3 million to €640,000. It has been explained that this relates to decentralisation and a reduction in the expenditure in maintaining the Department's Dublin offices. In general, the pattern of reductions reflect Government policy and the general level of cutbacks.

With regard to defensive equipment, there has been an increase in the purchase of consumables from €8.9 million to €14.3 million. The explanation is that there has been major spending on the purchase and upgrading of equipment and so on. I would like greater explanation as to what exactly this figure for consumables entails and why there is such a large increase when the trend tends to be downwards otherwise. I will leave my comments at that for the time being.

Normally, I would go to the Minister at this stage but Deputy Treacy wants to comment.

I will not delay the meeting. I pay tribute to the Minister, whom I welcome with his team. I pay tribute to the Department and the Army, one of the great institutions of the State. There is probably no other organisation in the country which has the capacity, logistically and personally, to carry out any public function so well. I pay tribute to the Minister for the investment in the Air Corps. Military aviation regulation is very strict and must incorporate civil aviation rules. Is the Minister satisfied that we are using the Air Corps sufficiently frequently to justify the necessary training which is critical to safe operations of the Air Corps? As a small country, we have an outstanding Air Corps. There has been much investment in that we have upgraded the base and bought new equipment. It is critical that the demands on the Air Corps are as frequent as possible, both from the Government and the State, to ensure the team of pilots have the necessary training to keep their skills at the highest level of international standard, taking into account the serious job they do. Is the Minister satisfied there is sufficient demand in this respect? I cannot understand how we could justify having the Air Corps if it is not used. People complain about over-using it but that is nonsensical. We must have security, mobility and services for Government, and it is vital the Air Corps is used to maximum effect to justify the investment we make and ensure we get the President and Ministers to their destinations on time or as quickly as possible.

I am also pleased that there has been investment in light tactical vehicles and this is a strategic move. I compliment the Minister and his Department on that. As Deputies Deenihan and O'Shea did, I inquire about the Asgard II. The country has benefited from the Volvo Ocean Race and we have an extremely important Naval Service. We made much investment in the Naval Service and the time has come for a national mobility day to celebrate the Naval Service every year. I ask the Minister to give special consideration to this. On such a day, ships could sail by different ports and locations each year, displaying to the nation and our people the capacity, work, improvement to and utilisation of the Naval Service, taking into account that we are an island nation with ten times more water than land under our territorial control. It is important that we make that statement on an annual basis. Just as we have a national day of commemoration for those who died in all wars, we should have a naval day, which would be good for the morale of the Naval Service and for our nation. I ask the Minister to consider this.

The Defence Forces and the Reserve Defence Force have been reorganised in recent years into different commands. Perhaps the Minister will give us a response as to how satisfactory that reorganisation has been from the point of view of the Reserve Defence Force. I pay tribute to our Defence Forces for the work they do not just here in Ireland but across the world. We are very proud of their involvement with various UN and EU missions. We should ensure that this will always be the case and that we are ready, willing and able to participate. I hope Lisbon II will ensure no impediments to the participation of the European Union, and this nation as a member of the Union. In this way we can ensure we use the military personnel of all member states of the Union in the interests of its citizens and of global peace. This is important for the future.

I commend the Government, particularly the Minister for Defence, and the Department on the relocation of the Department to Newbridge. Decentralisation is important and it is a credit to the Department that it is decentralising to Newbridge and that the Defence Forces headquarters will go to the Curragh. I pay special tribute to Mr. Lyons, who was here today, and all his colleagues, who were the pioneers of decentralisation in Ireland when, in 1988, we decentralised the pensions division of the Department of Defence to Renmore in Galway. That was the model for the modern decentralisation programme, which has been of major benefit to provincial Ireland. Prior to that there was ad hoc decentralisation, but the professionalism, dedication and unity of purpose that the Department of Defence unit in Galway has brought to the decentralisation programme is a model for all Departments to follow. I salute Mr. Lyons and his colleagues and thank them for the contribution they made to regionalisation and provincialisation of public services in our country.

I thank the Deputy. The Minister has a lot to deal with there.

There are a lot of questions and I will answer those to which I have answers while on the others I will get back to members.

The position on decentralisation to the Curragh is as follows. A site for the Defence Forces headquarters at the Curragh has been selected and planning permission has been obtained. The Office of Public Works has advised that it expects to be in a position to invite tenders for this project over the coming months. The building is expected to be completed by the end of 2011 so there will be a time gap between transfer to the Curragh and decentralisation to Newbridge.

Deputy Deenihan asked about the crèche at the Curragh. The committee has reported and we are in the process of examining that report. Deputy Deenihan also raised a question about the office of the Ombudsman for the Defence Forces. The OPW is looking around for alternative accommodation for the ombudsman and I supported the representations of the ombudsman to the OPW in that regard, as she acknowledged in her report.

With regard to the accident in Cork, I join Deputy Deenihan in wishing the young officer who was injured a speedy recovery. I have been in touch with his family personally about the matter and I hope he returns to full health. I am advised that the piece of equipment in question has been in use successfully for 11 years. There was, as Deputy Deenihan said, another accident involving the same piece of equipment some time ago, which I believe was minor. The circumstances of the more recent accident are being investigated by a board of inquiry. The equipment is not being used pending the outcome of the investigation, which should take a few weeks.

With regard to Deputy Deenihan's remarks on the moratorium, as I said, there are a number of matters on which I must get clarification from the Department of Finance. We are preparing a submission to the Department, about which I will speak personally to the Minister in the near future, which will cover matters I mentioned in my statement, such as promotion and recruitment. Deputy Deenihan also mentioned the medical report. I have received the report and it is my intention to publish it shortly and engage with the stakeholders in this regard.

What about the cadet school?

That will be part of our discussions with the Department of Finance. With regard to the medical report, I take Deputy Deenihan's point that sometimes it costs more to outsource medical services, but we must remember that some of them cannot be supplied from within the Defence Forces.

Deputy Deenihan also mentioned the offshore patrol vessels. As I outlined in my statement, we are almost ready to invite proposals from a preferred bidder and when they come in I will take them to Cabinet. We made provision, as members can see in the relevant subhead, for a down-payment if the Cabinet agrees to let me go ahead with the project. With regard to the extended patrol vessel, the first stage of that process is completed and we will leave the second stage until we see how we get on with the OPVs.

With regard to the cash in transit service, I am advised that we recover the full cost of providing that service, which came to €9.5 million in 2008. I took the initiative to insist that the banks pay the full cost of this service. The ground rules for air transport are that the Taoiseach allows use of ministerial transport for official business. It is the Taoiseach's office that decides this; I have no role in the matter. With regard to the cost of trips from Galway to Dublin and Dublin to Sligo, I do not have those figures but I will get them for the Deputy. I do not think the Government jet would go to Sligo, somehow.

It would go to Farranfore, of course.

Would some of the Air Corps helicopters go there? There was one Minister who nearly burned it out.

Present company excepted.

What about helicopters?

We will check that and get back to the Deputy.

It is interesting.

With regard to barracks closures, some of the costs have not yet come in. My original estimate was €3.2 million in total, to cover everything. We have been in touch with a number of public bodies and a number of such bodies have been in touch with us to express interest in these barracks and negotiations are ongoing. Thus, it may be that they will finish up in community use anyway.

The estimated cost arising from the barracks closures in 15 months, including the initial renovation works, is estimated at €3.2 million against annual recurring savings of approximately €2.7 million. It is difficult to estimate these matters exactly, but those are approximate figures. As I said, all costs have not come in yet, but I imagine they will not be far removed from that.

What about maintenance of the barracks that were evacuated? I am talking about security costs and so on.

Security has been withdrawn from all barracks except one so we do not expect the cost to be very high. We will get the figures for the Deputy.

Deputy Deenihan asked some questions about Chad. Some minor damage was done to the equipment. I was able to inspect some of it when I was out there because it had just been transported. The damage happened in the course of the carriage by road of the equipment from the port of Doula in Cameroon to Goz Beida. A local haulier was engaged to do the work and the question of re-employing him will not arise as this was once off. However, I assure members the damage was minor and did not cause any great difficulties. I am advised that the situation in respect of fuel supplies has much improved and normal service has been restored in the camp.

Regarding the Asgard, we received a proposal to salvage the ship. I cannot remember the details of the proposal offhand but there were several queries about it because it was not very well fleshed out. The Asgard was insured for a sum of approximately €3.8 million. Our intention is to build a new Asgard, with a steel hull. We are in negotiations with the Department of Finance about the matter and I hope to conclude these shortly. I may include them in my discussions with the Minister on promotions and recruitment etc. That is our intention. Regarding the provision in the Estimates, my understanding is that some back pay is owed to the former captain of the Asgard because of leave not taken. The ship has one member of staff at present. The other expenditure relates to the provision of the Creidne to stand in for the Asgard, and to accommodation provided by a Norwegian company to ensure that the sail training programme takes place.

Deputy O'Shea raised a number of matters. We discussed the issue of ICTU and PDFORRA. As the Deputy knows, a parallel process was established deliberately. One can understand the reasons for this. I explained to the Deputy a number of times in the House why it is not appropriate that PDFORRA should be officially part of ICTU. To compensate, we established a parallel process and I do not believe that in practice it has caused any difficulty for PDFORRA. I discussed this issue with PDFORRA on a number of occasions. We have not found an appropriate formula and, to date, nobody else, including PDFORRA, has presented a formula to me. If PDFORRA wishes to come back to me with an appropriate formula I certainly am prepared to consider it.

Concerning cyber-warfare, mentioned by Deputy O'Shea, at present the officers in emergency planning are doing a review of our preparedness in that respect. Deputy O'Shea also mentioned matters raised by Deputy Deenihan concerning recruitment and promotion. I reiterate that I will talk very shortly to the Minister for Finance about those matters.

Deputy O'Shea raised a number of serious matters regarding the Red Cross. I understand the procedure for appointment to the board is laid out under the relevant legislation. As members know, the chairman of the board is a distinguished former member of Government who served in various Ministries with great distinction and he has performed with distinction as chairman of the Red Cross. With regard to those people I have appointed to the Red Cross I will stand over any appointment I have made.

Deputy O'Shea mentioned governance difficulties. I am aware of only one letter, which I received from a member of the board of the Red Cross. I replied to it but did not receive a response. However, I shall talk to my officials about this and shall write to Deputy O'Shea on the matter. I wish to get my thinking correct on it and find out what is happening.

The issue of members of the reserve forces going abroad was raised, but I regret this cannot happen this year. Formerly, in order to go abroad one had to be a member of the Permanent Defence Force. In the absence of legislation to change that, our plan was to recruit members of the RDF on a temporary basis into the Permanent Defence Force and send them abroad. A number of those people have done some training and we identified them as candidates but, unfortunately, when the embargo was introduced we had to contact them and disappoint them. I hope we can return to that situation as quickly as possibly rather than have to bring in specific legislation for the purpose.

Our intention is to close St. Bricin's Hospital and to move all services to the Curragh. Regarding Deputy O'Shea's question about the number of patients treated there in the past five years, my understanding is that the figure is very low. I do not have the precise figures but I shall get them for the Deputy.

Regarding cuts, these will apply at every level across the Army and the public sector. One post of principal officer has been embargoed.

With regard to chaplains, the figures might be misleading. There was a slight excess last year and this year's provision is in line with last year's figure so I do not believe there is any fall-off in religious observation in the military.

Concerning PDF allowances, the reason for the reduction in the figure is that the subsistence allowance has been reduced by 25%. The children's allowance has been almost phased out and new people going abroad are not entitled to this allowance.

With regard to the reduction in the RDF budget from slightly in excess of €6 million to €4.9 million, last year the outturn in respect of paid man days was approximately 80,000. This year we are providing for 60,000 man days.

Deputies O'Shea and Deenihan asked me to clarify the position on recruitment to the Reserve Defence Force. As the Deputies will be aware, each year there is a fall-off in membership of the Reserve Defence Force. When the recruitment embargo was introduced we were advised it applied to the RDF. In effect, that meant we could not recruit more members although some people would drop out and, therefore, in net terms the figure would fall. In our initial discussions with the Department of Finance, we managed to prevent that happening and it has been agreed that I can recruit new members as others drop out, replacing people to keep the strength to present levels. That is the current position.

Concerning the salvage of the Asgard, I already stated that my intention is to build a new ship with a steel hull.

Deputy O'Shea asked about the decrease in pay of certain officers. There is a payroll reduction across the public sector. The Deputy made a point about consumer goods. This relates to ammunition which was ordered but not delivered last year. It is to be delivered and paid for this year.

I thank Deputy Noel Treacy for his kind remarks and shall pass on the complimentary remarks he made about various people.

The Minister might consider a national sail day for the Naval Service. It would be worth looking at logistically from a national and international point of view.

I support Deputy Treacy in that.

I shall talk to my officials about the matter and will write to both Deputies.

We will allow the Minister a lead-in of a year for planning purposes.

I thank the Minister and his officials for their responses, which are very clear. I have some issues arising from these. Did the Minister consider using the Jeanie Johnston as a replacement vessel for the Asgard and, if not, why not? It cost about €15 million to build and it included large sums from both sides of the island. It was purposely built as a sail-training vessel and has undertaken numerous sail-training excursions all over the world. Why then is it not used?

Regarding fuel matters, we are in an entirely new era of green fuel and so on. The bill for fuel for the Defence Forces is €5 million. What percentage of the total fuel bill is for biodiesel, for example? Is there a move within the Defence Forces to use this fuel?

I raised in the Dáil the issue of accommodation and I visited Cathal Brugha Barracks. In all, there were 22 officers and 22 containers. There was a perfectly fine building there with new windows and a new roof. What is required is an upgrading of the existing space. A commitment was given for that to happen and I wonder if it will happen, because although the containers looked alright, they were not suitable for young officers trying to study, especially during heavy rain or hailstones. They were not comfortable enough.

I am interested in fitness. I was very impressed with the new obstacle course on my recent visit to the Curragh. I was also very impressed with the level of fitness.

Did the Deputy take the course?

I suggested I would, and that I would take the Minister on. I would only do it on condition that the Minister, the Chief of Staff and, perhaps, the secretary take it as well.

How can we compete?

I was very impressed with the level of fitness and discipline of those I saw. I was also very impressed with the number of schools using the swimming pool in the Curragh. I have made the same point a number of times, that is, the possible future role of the Defence Forces in advising on fitness programmes and, where appropriate and possible, participating in fitness programmes for young people.

I notice, apart from the Curragh which is used on an extensive basis by the local community, which I agree with, there are a number of investments, thanks to the delegation and its Department, across the country in gymnasiums. I encourage the use of such facilities by local schools as much as possible. In Limerick, the Department was proposed to put a gym into Sarsfield barracks, which could be an addition to the facilities there and could be targeted at a certain section of the community.

I raised an issue which was trivialised in the media, which I expected, namely, clothing. The delegation mentioned clothing for Defence Forces personnel who are pregnant and that current clothing is not appropriate for the final stages of pregnancy. Women have to use civilian clothing, but Defence Forces personnel like to be clad in their uniforms at all times. That is understandable. The Minister mentioned that a committee was investigating this matter. Has it come to a resolution? It should not be too difficult.

I have some brief questions. Regarding members of the Reserve Defence Force who have been identified as serving overseas, how does the delegation intend to get over the problem of recruitment for the Defence Forces? Will it be done by way of legislation or obtaining a waiver, in terms of the embargo? What course does the delegation intend to follow?

What is the current strength of the medical corps? Has it grown or reduced in strength over the past number of months since we last raised this matter in the House? Regarding Chad, is there any change in the ban on physical contact sports for the troops serving there? Is the situation the same as when we last discussed it in the Dáil?

There seems to have been a large number of troops, comparatively speaking, who had to return from Chad for various reasons, including illnesses. Will the Minister comment on that trend? Is it continuing? I do not recall the exact figure, but the figure he gave us in the House was somewhat larger than I would have expected. Will he comment on that?

With regard to the questions raised by Deputy Deenihan, we did look at the possibility of using the Jeanie Johnston. All things considered, we did not regard it as appropriate. It requires a crew of 12, which is extremely expensive. We think the Creidne is much more suitable for the purposes of training in sailing. Regarding the question of fuel and bio-fuels, I do not have the information, but I will get back to the Deputy.

The Deputy referred to accommodation at Cathal Brugha barracks. I am not a building contractor and I do not think Deputy Deenihan has any qualifications in that regard.

I am advised that the refurbishment the Deputy referred to would be extremely expensive. However, other options are being considered.

Regarding the use of gymnasiums for schools, a number of quite complex insurance issues have arisen, which we are currently examining. I share the Deputy's view and would love to see schools availing of the facilities, but there are insurance issues.

Surely the same issues apply to a community facility as apply to an Army or Defence Forces facility.

There are a number of issues we will look at. We do not want to expose the State to significant liabilities. I am informed we have not heard anything from the clothing committee yet. Perhaps we will send them a reminder.

On Deputy O'Shea's point, my preference is to induct people into the RDF for the period in question. Due to the moratorium, I will not be able to do that this year. We are keeping the matter under review. The strength of the medical corps is approximately 23.

There is no change in the situation in Chad regarding physical contact, but I am informed that the commander on the ground there is applying that stricture in a very flexible way and people are not as unhappy as some of us may have been led to believe. I am informed by my officials that bringing people home from Chad as a result of injuries is not a major problem.

People may have to come home because of injuries, illnesses or whatever.

It happens no more than would be expected in, for example, Liberia or similar situations. We will check the figures and get back to the Deputy.

The Minister or his Department has had an approach regarding salvaging the Asgard II. Somebody with Irish connections also contacted me. What is the policy if somebody is prepared to do it? Is the Minister open to a proposal, such as salvaging the ship properly by a reputable salvage company, or has he decided to leave it down there? Does an insurance issue arise whereby if it is salvaged, the Department may not get the insurance money? Is it a write-off at this stage?

It is not a write-off. Is Deputy Deenihan referring to offers to salvage the ship by outside parties?

There is an old saying that there is no such thing as a free lunch. The proposal that came in stated the company would salvage the ship and then purchase it from us for the princely sum of €1. We were faced with the question whether to salvage the Asgard II, which has sunk in the Bay of Biscay, or use the insurance money for something else. Discussing the matter with various salvage companies, the cost of salvaging it came to well over €2 million and there is a great element of risk involved. We cannot judge it until we bring it up to the surface. We could find it is unusable or it could be damaged in the salvage process. This would be a risk with the insurance money that we could use to supply a new Asgard, and that is the decision we took.

If some philanthropic or benign person comes in with a very generous proposal to salvage the Asgard II we will examine it. I have asked the board of Coiste an Asgard to set up a sub-committee because a number of people were making statements in the media that they were going to run concerts and other fund-raisers to raise the Asgard II. I have indicated to the board that it should establish a system to allow those people to come forward with their offers if they wish. If they come up with a lower amount that it would cost to salvage the Asgard II, we will make a generous contribution to top it up. We will get on with establishing the sub-committee and let it put the word out that it is there and is open to accepting such proposals because we have committed to doing that and we want to do it.

To clarify, is the Minister saying that if they come up with less than €2 million the Minister is prepared to top it up?

If the system I am setting up attracts sufficient offers to get fairly near the mark — we will not get into figures today — I would be prepared to top it up.

I thank the Minister and his officials.

Barr
Roinn