Select Committee on Legislation and Security díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 16 May 1995

Vote 36 — Defence (Revised Estimate).

Vote 37 — Army Pensions.

Chairman

I welcome the Minister for Defence, Deputy Coveney, the Secretary of the Department, Mr. Seán Brosnan, and his colleagues to our meeting this afternoon. I look forward to a productive and interesting debate on the Defence Estimates. I understand a timetable has been circulated to all Members. It is simply a proposed timetable, the purpose of which is to insure all the subheads of the Votes before us receive due consideration. The timetable is primarily indicative in nature, providing the committee with broad parameters within which to conduct the debate. This will assist Members and provide for a more focused debate. It is based on similar timetables agreed over the last two years which have worked reasonably well. I see the timetable as a general guide to the debate and I intend to be somewhat flexible in applying it. However, it is imortant to deal with the various subheads.

Today the committee must consider the Revised Estimates, Vote 36 — Defence — and Vote 37 — Army Pensions. This is an important responsibility delegated to the committee by Dáil Éireann and it imposes a serious obligation on us which I am confident we will properly discharge. The 1995 Estimate for Vote 36 — Defence — is £373,662,000 an increase of 5 per cent on the previous year. The Estimate in respect of Vote 37 — Army Pensions — is £52,945,000, a 1 per cent increase on last year. These are significant sums of money and, among other things, we are obliged to consider whether these sums are being expended in the most efficient and effective way.

One of the topics that comes immediately to mind is the Price Waterhouse report for the Efficiency Audit Group and the debate surrounding their proposals to reform the Defence Forces. The report raises many fundamental questions about the nature and future of the Defence Forces which undoubtedly impinge on our consideration of the Defence Estimate. I realise the report has still to be considered by Cabinet and the Minister may therefore be somewhat constrained in his comments. However, I am sure Members will have some questions to put to the Minister in this area. In any event, it is an area the Minister will wish to address in his comments. I take the opportunity to inform the Minister that under paragraph 22 of the revised terms of reference of this select committee, I expect him to bring the Price Waterhouse report before us in due course so that the issues raised therein can be discussed in considerable detail. The committee may require the attendance of the Minister for this purpose in the medium term. I intend writing to the Ministers whose Departments fall within our remit to inform them of their obligations under our revised terms of reference and to ensure they are complied with.

Turning to the business before us, I am delighted the Minister for Defence is here. I look forward to a constructive and informative debate and now call on the Minister, Deputy Coveney, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Coveney

Chairman, thank you for facilitating this meeting. I am pleased to be appearing before this comittee for the first time in my capacity as Minister for Defence. I will be happy to accept your invitation to discuss the Price Waterhouse report, the EAG report on it and the Government's decision at a future date.

It is a valuable and worthwhile exercise to debate the Defence and Army Pensions Estimates under the committee system. Moreover it gives us time to consider in some detail the manner in which resources are deployed and managed in the business of maintaining the Defence Forces. It also gives us the opportunity to have a preliminary look at some of the important steps being taken at the moment with a view to reshaping the Defence Forces. These changes will mark a watershed in the development of the organisation.

There is widespread agreement on the need to modernise the structure and organisation of the Defence Forces. Its basic underlying framework has remained unchanged for decades. The review of the Defence Forces, initiated by the previous Government, which has been undertaken by the EAG provides an opportunity to address many issues in the Army, Naval Service and Air Corps which require attention. A number of issues have been the subject of public debate for a considerable period of time.

What is now contemplated is a structured set of reforms to modernise the Defence Forces, both in terms of organisation and skill levels. This programme of modernisation will be introduced on a carefully planned basis in order to allow the current organisation to adapt to the necessary changes.

The Government will shortly consider the report of the EAG on their review of the Defence Forces. The EAG's examination is the most comprehensive study of the Defence Forces since the foundation of the State. I think a distorted view of the review process has emerged. I would like to place on the record the actual terms of reference given to the EAG when the review was initiated by the last Government. They are as follows:

To develop feasible options for the overhaul of the Defence Forces structures and systems having regard to the statement of roles as approved on 21 September, 1993 with the aim of achieving: the most efficient and effective procurement, deployment and use of resources, recognising resource constraints and with particular reference to geographic location; the optimum command, grading and management structures and systems (including arrangements in respect of the interaction between the Defence Forces and the civil side of the Department of Defence); and the appropriate level and composition of administrative and operational strength and equipment.

External consultants were engaged by the EAG to conduct the detailed work of the review. To ensure that the consultants had the necessary military expertise, senior officers of the Defence Forces were involved at every stage of the selection process. The selected firm, Price Waterhouse, provided a team which included Major-General Lewis Makenzie, the ex-UN commander in the former Yugoslavia, and other Canadian military experts. The Canadian military team was accepted by the Irish military authorities as having the necessary and appropriate military competence to conduct the review. Furthermore, the EAG appointed its own separate military adviser, a recently retired Air ViceMarshal of international repute, from New Zealand. The military authorities were involved in the steering group for the study. Much of the detailed research and technical studies were carried out by military officers under the supervision of the consultants.

The review should not be seen as a mere cost-cutting exercise. The EAG was not asked to review the Defence Forces to produce a programme of cutbacks and closures. Key words which appear in the terms of reference are "feasible", "efficient", "effective", "optimum" and "appropriate". "Optimum" implies best, for the achievement of a result. This is precisely what the Government wants for the Defence Forces; an organisation that is best suited for the discharge of the assigned roles. A key objective is to release more personnel for operational duties. This is also what military personnel themselves want.

While praising military personnel for their excellent record of service, the EAG has identified weakness in structures, practices and organisation which it will be necessary to address. I met the Defence Forces representative associations on a number of occasions, briefed them on the general thrust of the EAG's findings and recommendations and obtained their views on those matters which fall within the agreed terms of the conciliation and arbitration scheme.

The recommendations of the EAG will be carefully considered by Government before any definite steps are taken. It will be necessary to establish an implementation group to prepare a fully costed implementation plan for Phase 1 of the proposals which will address the more important issues, including structure, personnel and resources. I envisage the implementation group taking approximately three months to prepare such a plan, given the size and diversity of the military organisation. The committee will be kept informed of decisions in this regard. I look forward to having further discussions with the committee at a future date. I wish to deal now with some specific items which seem to be causing undue anxiety based on rumour and speculation.

An important element in the organisation of the Defence Forces is their deployment in barracks throughout the country. There has been some alarmist talk in relation to the question of closure of Army barracks. While the Government have yet to consider the report of the EAG, I have decided that in the context of Phase 1 of the implementation process there will be no barracks closures as part of the three year plan which it is proposed to formulate. However, there will be a study of facilities occupied by the Defence Forces in the three year plan. In conducting this study, full regard will be had to the socio-economic importance of local barracks.

With regard to military bands, Price Waterhouse recommended that the number of bands should be reduced from four to one. This proposal, as it stands, is not acceptable to me and I do not believe it will be acceptable to the Government. For many years the Army School of Music — and generations of military musicians who received their training there — has made an invaluable contribution to the life of the Defence Forces. Army bands have an important role on many State ceremonial occasions. They also make a valuable contribution to the community. They are in constant demand to give public performances at major events throughout the country. For many years Army musicians have maintained an admirable standard of excellence. The presence of Army bands has contributed a unique lustre to imporant national events and have an important role in maintaining the esprit-de-corps of the Defence Forces. I will ask the implementation group to take cognisance of the importance of Army bands when proceeding with its work.

Following the unauthorised publication of extracts from the Price Waterhouse report in July last year, there was a degree of speculation about the Army School of Equitation. No decisions have been taken concerning the equitation school and it has been made clear that there is no question of it being closed. In implementing the EAG report, the focus will be on ensuring that the school has an adequate supply of first class horses and riders. The school has a long and distinguished record in showjumping at home and overseas and has played a major role in promoting the non-thoroughbred Irish horse. Deputy Barrett, in his role as Minister of State at the Department of Defence, is paying particular attention to the equitation school and addressing the question of ensuring that a continuing supply of horses will be available for teams competing in the international arenas. The question of how best to achieve this is being examined. One possibility is the introduction of sponsorship arrangements. I am also anxious to ensure that the school will continue to produce top class riders to represent Ireland. I might mention that in this year's intake of cadets, two cadetships are being specifically reserved for the equitation school.

The rising age profile of military personnel has been the subject of public comment for some time. It is one of a number of issues which will have to be addressed in implementing a programme of reform in the Defence Forces. It is envisaged that a voluntary early retirement scheme will be introduced but there will be a process of consultation with the representative associations before the details of any scheme are drawn up. It would be premature, therefore, to engage in speculation about the details of a scheme. It has already been made clear, however, that there will be no compulsory redundancies.

There will be a further intake of recruits for general service in 1995. I will be making an announcement in that regard in due course. As the committee will appreciate, it is appropriate and prudent that recruitment measures should be harmonised and synchronised with the reform plan, particularly in the context of the overall age profile. Interviews are taking place at present for the award of 35 apprenticeships in the Army and Air Corps. In addition, advertisements for the award of cadetships in the Army, Air Corps and Naval Service were placed in the national press recently. It is envisaged that about 35 cadetships will be awarded this year.

The main day to day role of the Naval Service is to provide a fishery protection service in accordance with the State's obligation as a member of the EU. The Naval Service's efforts in his regard are complemented by assistance provided by the Air Corps. In addition to surveillance work undertaken by Dauphin helicopters, working in conjunction with LE Eithne, two new CASA aircraft have been acquired for the Air Corps for aerial maritime patrols. With the new arrangements on fishery control measures, which will arise in 1996, the workload of the Naval Service is set to increase. I am conscious that additional resources, including ships, are required to enable the Naval Service to patrol our waters more effectively and to enforce the new fishery control measures coming into place.

I expect that a new EU fisheries surveillance package will be available, the details of which may be available at the Fisheries Council in June. I am hopeful that, for the first time, such a package will include an element of funding for operational costs for Ireland. An essential ingredient in the new package, as far as Ireland is concerned, with the provision of additional ships for the Naval Service. Discussions have been ongoing between officials from both of my Departments to determine how best to meet the enforcement requirements of the new control measures, and to prepare a detailed case for funding which I will present to the Commission in the near future.

Responsibility for the prevention of illegal importation of drugs rests primarily, with the Garda Síochána and the Revenue Commissioners. The Defence Forces respond to requests from the civil authorities for assistance, including assistance in combating the illegal importation of drugs and will continue to do that. The Minister for Justice is formulating proposals designed to secure the best arrangements for achieving a cohesive and co-ordinated response to the drug trafficking problems by existing law enforcement agencies and I understand that these proposals will be submitted to Government shortly.

I expect that these proposals will include provision for the designation of certain Naval personnel as enforcement officers for the purposes of part V of the Criminal Justice Act, 1994. The designation of Naval personnel as enforcement officers will empower those members of the Service to take effective action where drugs offences come to their notice in their normal fishery patrols and in the absence of either the Garda or Customs Service. At present, the Naval Service are precluded from making an arrest without having a Garda present which is frustrating for them.

I would like to briefly highlight some of the principal features of the Defence Estimate. The Estimate is for a gross sum of £389,862,000, an increase of more then £17 million on the 1994 figure. Pay and allowances in respect of the Defence Forces account for £296 million or approximately 80 per cent of the Estimate. The net sum required for 1995 is £373,662,000 and the Estimates is based on an average total strength of 12,975 in the Defence Forces comprising 1,550 officers, 11,300 non-commissioned officers and privates, 60 cadets and 65 members of the army nursing service. Provision is also made for the training of approximately 9,000 FCA and Slua Muirí personnel.

Non-pay expenditure totalling some £93 million is detailed in 21 subheads. A synopsis of the subheads has already been circulated to Members of the committee. Almost £19 million of the non-pay element will be used for the purchase and maintenance of aircraft and related equipment. The two new purpose built CASA CN 235 maritime patrol aircraft which were delivered to the Air Corps at the end of last year are now operational and are proving to be very effective in the detection of fisheries offences. The capital cost of these aircraft is part funded — 50 per cent — by the EU. Their introduction and the continuing excellent work being done by the Naval Service fishery protection vessels will ensure that our valuable natural resources are better protected and that we are capable of fulfilling the obligations incumbent on us as a member of the European Union.

I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the various elements of the Defence Forces — Army, Air Corps, Naval Service and the Reserve Defence Force — for their work at home and abroad. Irish troops serving overseas have attracted commendation and acclaim for the consistently high standards they have maintained over the years as peacekeepers, often in very difficult circumstances.

I was delighted to have an opportunity — my first as Minister for Defence — in March last to visit our troops in their peacekeeping role in Cyprus and the Middle East. They have a proud record and tradition and they are deserving of our congratulations. I am sure that the committee will join me in paying tribute to them. It is particularly in the role of peacekeeping that the professionalism of members of the Defence Forces comes to the fore. Irish soldiers have built up an enviable international reputation as peacekeepers. Service with the United Nations demands a wide range of skills and personal qualities. Frequently, patience and diplomacy may be as necessary as the conventional military skills of the soldier. Decades of experience have shown that Irish soldiers have these qualities in abundance and the number of requests the Government receives from the United Nations confirms the high regard in which Irish soldiers are held. The contribution made to peacekeeping operations has enhanced the prestige of Ireland internationally and has been a source of pride to all Irish people.

Since Ireland first contributed troops to the UN in 1958, Irish soldiers have participated in over 35 individual missions. Over 9,000 personnel who currently serve in the Defence Forces have completed a tour of duty in an overseas mission. This proud record is built on voluntary service. It says something about the character of our Defence Forces that, whenever new missions arise, the number of volunteers invariably exceeds the number of available places.

Our single biggest contribution to the United Nations in terms of personnel continues to be the UNIFIL mission in Lebanon. For many years it seemed that there was no hope of an end to the conflict which engulfed Lebanon. However, peace is now beginning to take hold. The Middle East peace process is making its impact on life in the region and the hope is that the situation in Lebanon will return to a point where the presence of UNIFIL will no longer be required. However, I feel that that point will not be reached for some years yet. Requests for the United Nations to contribute to peacekeeping missions will of course always be considered carefully and sympathetically as they arise and as our resources permit.

The United Nations School in the Curragh is a repository of expertise on peacekeeping built on the experience gained over many years by members of the Defence Forces. Requests by many overseas military authorities including the United States, the United Kingdom and more recently Lebanon to participate in courses here is a recognition in itself of the high regard in which our Defence Forces are held on the international peackeeping front.

The Army pensions estimates for the year ending 31 December 1995 is for a gross sum of £55,730,000, the net figure being £52,945,000. This figure represents an increase on last year's outturn of approximately 1 per cent. Details regarding this Estimate have also been circulated to the committee. Almost 91 per cent of the Estimate will be expended on service pensions and retirement and death gratuities for former Defence Forces personnel and also for pensions and allowances payable to spouses and children of personnel. Approximately 8,000 former members and their dependants are involved.

I wish to pay tribute to Mr. Sean Brosnan who is retiring this month. He has given outstanding service to the State and to me, since my appointment as Minister about six months ago. I will be pleased to answer any questions Members may have.

Chairman

On behalf of the committee, I wish to add to the Minister's words of commendation to Mr. Brosnan. His contribution to the Department of Defence over a number of years has been significant and we wish him well on his retirement.

Mr. M. Smith

I welcome this opportunity to debate the Estimates for the Department of Defence. I thank the Minister and his officials. I also pay tribute to Mr. Brosnan for his outstanding service to this country over a long period of time. He can be happy with the contribution he has made and with his efforts to support successive Governments in delicate, sensitive and difficult areas. The experience he gained was immeasurable and has assisted the State on a variety of fronts. He can be proud of his achievement and I hope he will be happy and healthy in his retirement.

It is interesting that the Minister did not refer to Estimates until more than half way through his speech. That is indicative of the extent to which the EAG report, the Government's consideration of that report and some of the concerns which the Minister expressed — and perhaps to which he contributed in a small way although none of us might be totally innocent in that regard — overshadow everything else that is happening in the Department at present. I will return to some of the elements in that report later.

On both the international and domestic fronts we live in a time of great change as far as defence policy is concerned. On the domestic front, the developing peace process will cause its own changes — such as some redeployment and other changes — and many of these are welcome. Let us hope that the process develops in a way which will make such changes possible, particularly in the security role of the Defence Forces. On the international front, we welcome the end of the Cold War. However, the increase in ethnic, cultural and religious hatred calls for new skills in peacekeeping and peace enforcement in managing humanitarian conflicts and in crisis management.

The Defence Forces over the past 30 years have gained extraordinary experience and skills which have done this country proud and which have raised the morale of the Army. We do not have the infantry or heavy artillery of other countries but we have special expertise as a result of our non-colonial history and our involvement in these regionalised conflicts over the years. We have built up a reservoir of strengths which is well utilised by the UN. We hope that the training and the developments which will take place as a result of the review will provide the resources necessary to ensure that we can continue to play that role in a significant way. There is no doubt that these demands will be there and we must ensure that we can play our role.

Second, with regard to European defence policy, we can play a very positive role in ensuring that the changes proposed are influenced by our thinking and our neutrality. However, we will not shy away from being able to participate on the wider front in that developing process.

The Minister spoke of taking up this position six months ago, and I can say the same with regard to the position of Opposition Front Bench spokesperson. I was amazed at the extent to which we call on the defence forces to aid the civilian power. It obviously supports the Garda but it also provides support in areas such as disaster relief and the management of public utilities in strikes where the Defence Forces has given sterling service on many occasions. It is realistic to assume that any review will take into account that we will have to rely on very considerable expertise being built up and maintained in the Defence Forces to secure and ensure public utilities, emergency services and a range of other activities which we call on them to provide.

On fishery protection, we welcome the purchase of the two CASA aircraft. It is clear they are having effect. Having to patrol 132,000 square miles is a difficult task, and the range of equipment and expertise necessary to undertake this work is very important, especially as the Spaniards will start coming into the Irish Box in 1996. The Minister's statement has indicated that the expectation is that there will be considerable EU funding, both in initial capital investment and in the operational costs. We wish to be assured of this, because from a consideration of the Estimate, it is clear there is no provision to equip ourselves for the task that lies ahead on that front.

I am disappointed more has not been said about recruitment. There is an ageing age profile in the Defence Forces. It will have to be countered in two ways, one of which is through the early retirement scheme. While the Minister does not wish us to tease out the elements of the scheme, we need to hear more about the consultative process and how the scheme will develop so that the twin actions of recruitment and retirement work simultaneously.

I welcome the Minister's statement with regard to Army barracks. While there has been considerable emphasis on this issue, I hope the whole debate will be considered in a broader context. That there will be no closures in the first phase of implementation may be difficult to credit in view of the speculation that, in the proposals before the Government, the Minister may propose 1,500 redundancies. If recruitment over the same period is 1,500 this would appear to indicate taking out approximately 3,000 to reach target figures. It is difficult to see how that kind of change would not result in other proposals with regard to the present lay out and geography of Army barracks. A number of them are in deplorable and pauperish condition. They belong to the past and are scarcely fit to live in. We wish to see some proposals and provisions, even on a phased basis in view of the difficult financial constraints.

I also welcome the statement regarding the Army Equitation School, the Army School of Music and the Army bands. The EAG report went too far in its proposals with regard to both of these areas and it is clear the Government is rowing back from these elements in the report. The Opposition welcome such a change in attitude.

We all associate discipline with the culture of the Army. It is different from other organisations within the public sector. We have had to rely on the Army for the provision of emergency services, and perhaps we always take too much for granted. This discipline, together with a serious approach to its activities is always there and we should never take it for granted. We must ensure that a much better consultative process is developed, and I hope in the context of the Government's proposals on the review, it will be maintained.

Every organisation should be reviewed and should face change in the light of time and experience. However, for that to be workable there must be belief in the people who have to operate the changes. The consultative process we have sought from the outset and which the Minister is committed to developing is crucially important in a time of change when there is caution, fear and doubt. The Opposition has no interest in creating or fermenting any fear as far as the Army personnel is concerned. We wish to see these changes implemented on a phased basis, on the basis of consultation and in the belief that they are operable at this time.

Chairman

I now call for an opening statement on behalf of the Progressive Democrats from Deputy Clohessy.

Mr. Clohessy

I welcome the Minister to the committee on this, his first Estimate, and I thank him for his co-operation since his appointment. We are very satisfied with him. I convey my good wishes to the Secretary of the Department, Seán Brosnan, who has been the guiding light of the Department for many years. He has maintained it in first class condition at all times. He is an old hand at his job and I wish him every happiness for the future.

A number of sections of the Army have been talked about over the past couple of months. The first of these is the Army Equitation School. While its contribution to soldiery is not all that high, it is a shop window for the country and has been since the foundation of the Army. Its remarkable achievement over the years at various shows throughout the world keeps the name of the country in a very high position. The second is the Army bands, and I would be very disappointed if there were to be a reduction in the bands as suggested in the newspapers. The bands are institutions in themselves, comprising professional people. They have nowhere else to turn. The demand for musicians has changed over the years and they would not find positions which would give them a proper living if the bands were disbanded.

This country is surrounded by water and, as the Minister is aware, it is a stepping stone to European and world markets for drug dealers. Last week drugs to the value of £3 million were found in a warehouse at Shannon Airport. Those drugs were brought into this country by sea. While this Estimate would not be able to provide the type of surveillance and protection which this country needs, a very sound case should be made by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Defence for extra patrol boats and personnel to curtail drug trafficking.

Members of our Defence Forces are among the unsung heroes and heroines of society. They are our last line of defence in the face of criminal activity and lawlessness. While we hope and pray that the ceasefire in Northern Ireland will continue, we must never forget the vital role played by our Army in combating terrorism over the past quarter of a century.

Those who have no involvement with the Army, Naval Service or Air Corps usually ignore or forget these bodies until there is a strike in key service areas such as petrol delivery, rubbish collection or the closure of electricity stations. Then the cry is to bring in the Army. Over the years, Army personnel have done vital emergency work in keeping essential public services going in such situations and without their efforts, the country would have to come to a standstill. The Air Corps is constantly engaged in life saving operations, on and off short, and its personnel have often risked their own safety to save lives in rescue operations at sea. Without their bravery and training, there would be many more tragedies at sea and on land.

In addition, our Army performed vital peace keeping work in trouble spots across the globe, from the Lebanon to Somalia and Bosnia. I pay tribute to our overseas personnel. Many international figures agree that the Irish Army is our best ambassador. In the Third World and in countries where there is turmoil and trouble, people turn to the Irish Army peace keeping forces.

The daily work of helping to secure and safeguard cash in transit consignments being moved around the country, where the presence of armed soldiers is a vital deterrent to vicious gangsters, is esential to law and order. Much of that work is humdrum, routine and unpleasant. Manning Border checkpoints in all kinds of weather and at all times of the day and night is not interesting and can be dangerous. However, it is essential for the security of this State.

I made those points because there is a tendency to take our Defence Forces for granted. They are often ignored and generally under-resourced. My party welcomed the recent debate about the role and future of the Defence Forces, which was sparked by the publication of the efficiency audit group report. We have never had a comprehensive Government policy concerning the role and future of the forces. Formation of this policy must be done carefully and sensitively, and in the context of the fullest consultation with all the relevant people and representative agencies, from the military authorities to the various Army representative organisations, also taking into account the views of the wider community.

Major changes are essential in the light of redefining the key role of the Army from defence of the State against outside aggression and giving greater priority to its current operational role of aiding the Garda, especially in maintaining internal State security, participating in UN peace keeping operations, providing fishery protection services and other functions such as air and sea rescue. These are the line along which the Army must develop as we reach the end of this century. It has a vital function to perform in many areas of activity.

I want an assurance from the Minister that, in responding to the report of the efficiency audit group and in formulating any plans for the future of the Defence Forces, he will act in the fullest consultation with the relevant representative agencies, from the military authorities to the various Army representative organisations, and take into account the views of the wider community.

Chairman

On Vote 36 — Defence (Revised Estimate), we will take subheads A.1 to A.7, inclusive, which provide for salaries and wages and allowances for civil servants and for departmental administrative expenses. These subheads comprise the Department's administration budget, totalling £9.686 million for 1995. I am anxious to open up the debate, having regard to the fact that we have concluded the opening statements, and invite comments from those who have not had an opportunity to speak.

Mr. Mulvihill

In the past, recruitment to the Defence Forces has been by block entry of a couple of hundred personnel over 12 months. This is unsuitable for the Naval Service as its recruits receive a different type of training — they do military training first and then they have to do a seamen's course. At present, there are over 1,000 personnel in the Naval Service. When I was there, there were three corvettes and 300 personnel and accommodation has not been improved in the last 25 years.

Morale is at an all time low in the Naval Service. Young recruits in the past couple of years did courses as fitters, engine room operatives and so on. When they completed their training they were not allowed to work at the job for which they were trained but given other jobs in the Naval Service. They did not get the pay which they should have got as tradespersons. This is causing a great deal of unrest and many people are looking for transfers from the Naval Service to the Army.

I welcome the Minister's statement that he will be looking for more ships for the Naval Service. However, one of the present ships, the LE Deirdre, is 24 years old and we scrapped the corvettes when they were 25 years old. The LE Eithne is 12 years old, the LE Eimer is 18 years old, the LE Aoife is 16 years old, the LE Aisling is 16 years old and the LE Ciara and LE Orla are 11 years old. We will have to replace the whole fleet if we do not move fairly fast to replace ships. I also welcome the statement that some of the naval personnel will be appointed as enforcement officers for boarding trawlers and yachts off our coastline to fight the drugs problem.

With regard to early retirement, many soldiers and sailors retire from our Defence Forces after 30 or 40 years' service and the State does not look after them very well. These people committed their whole lives to the Defence Forces and spent all their lives in barracks or naval depots. When they retire, they leave the barracks for a completely new life and more attention should be paid to them.

Chairman

Some of those comments are more relevant to subhead J, which we will be taking later on. However, I see that the Minister has taken notes and I will ask him to reply shortly.

Mr. D. Wallace

As a fellow Corkman, I congratulate the Minister and welcome him. I am delighted with what he has outlined today as he certainly eliminated some of the concerns of members of the Defence Forces. I come from a city where a large percentage of the Naval Service and the Army — Collins Barracks is situated in my area — are located. There is much concern about the Price Waterhouse report. Unfortunately, when we get people to do a job, they can do anything. In this case, it is easy to get from A to B by reducing the number of Army bands. The implications for the Army and the community are widespread. Many brass and reed bands throughout the Cork city and the country would not exist but for the fact that serving and retired members of the Defence Forces took an interest in their community and assisted, supported and trained new personnel for these bands. I welcome the Minister's assurance today as regards the future of the Army School of Music given the role it plays in their profession, in the Defence Forces and in the community.

The Minister said that barracks would not be closed within a three year period. I would like an assurance from the Minister that he is not putting off the evil day, perhaps for somebody else to close them in three, four or five years.

Mr. Browne

(Carlow-Kilkenny): We will still be here.

Mr. D. Wallace

There is concern about the three years because, while this Minister might not do it, somebody else might take up the cudgel later. I ask the Minister for clarification because this will not allay the fears of members of the Defence Forces. They have given their lives to the Defence Forces and have no other profession because they joined at 15 or 16 years of age. They have given great service to the community and the position should be clarified for them.

I accept we live in different times. The role of the barracks has changed and we must look at the direction in which it is going. However, I do not believe that a reduction in numbers is the answer to the problem. There are a range to areas in which the Defence Forces could be involved. I ask the Minister to look closely at this.

Mr. Kemmy

I welcome the Minister and wish him well in his assignment. He has handled his brief well to date and has a refreshing degree of candour and honesty about him when dealing with the media and Members. It is good that a politician should be open because there is an element of cynicism and ring craft in what many politicians say and they run with the hare and hunt with the hounds. That is not good for this country if we are to face up to the reality of the rapidly changing world in which we live. The Minister has brought candour and openness to his role and I hope he sticks with that to the best of his ability. Sometimes he walks a tight rope, but I hope he is supported and allowed to continue in his work.

I join with other Members in wishing the Secretary of the Department of Defence a long, healthy and happy retirement and I congratulate him on a job well done. We often think of politicians, but take no notice of public officials and civil servants. The country needs good and honest civil servants now more than ever before because of the new problems facing us. It is important that civil servants and public representatives work in tandem in the best interests of the country.

It is a pity that when the previous Government set up the terms for the review of the Defence Forces that it did not include the Garda. The Army has served the country well. While people would not be aware of the structure and some of the internal problems of the Army, they would recognise that the Garda had more problems, particularly as regards combating crime and its internal problems. People might have thought that a more logical candidate for a review would be the Garda, given the changing world of crime, how volatile and widespread crime has become and the drug menace, to which Members referred.

We cannot have our loaf an eat it. The Opposition which demands accountability and efficiency in the expenditure of public money and which demands cutbacks cannot bemoan the fact so much is being spent from the public purse on the one hand, while on the other hand, complain afterwards about a body set up by a previous Government which initiated the review. It is a discussion document to be debated by all sides. If taken in that spirit, there is no reason to be afraid of any review.

We are reviewed by the press everyday and we must take it in our stride. We cannot run away from criticism, which is sometimes unfair and personal. People who work well are criticised every day, sometimes wrongly by the media. Any public or private body, including the Army, must account for its stewardship and it should not be afraid of criticism and open, honest, analytical assessment or review, particularly if the body carrying out the review is competent and fair-minded and carries out its terms of reference.

We must ask what an Army role is in a society with the population of Manchester. Barracks, which were referred to, were set up by the British Government to subdue, control and contain a sometimes hostile population, particularly during urban and agrarian unrest and terrorism. My own city was a garrison. In a modern world with modern technology and with a changing role for Ireland in the world and in the European Union and with internal problems in our society, it is relevant and pertinent that this committee should ask what is the function of an Army in the world not only internally, but internationally. If those questions are posed and answered honestly, and if the document and the Estimates are dealt with in a relevant way, we have no reason to fear anything.

Those serving in the Army, including officers and men, and those in the Air Corps are entitled to make their case. We are entitled to look at the structure of the Army in terms of officers and men, the age structure and whether it is relevant and if it is equipped to do the job nationally and internationally. We should look at the relationship between the Army, Naval Service and Air Corps to see if it is working well and co-ordinated at a time when many parts of the country are awash with drugs and the Garda is barely able to deal with that menance. Co-ordination between the three structures is important. These questions should not be avoided or fudged.

It is important that there is consensus in this committee among the Opposition and Government parties because that is the only way we can deal with the problem intelligently and efficiently. We will not win the battle against drugs and crime, which is outside the brief of this committee, unless there is co-operation and co-ordination between public representatives and the Garda. The Minister has a heavy duty to discharge and I wish him well in carrying out his brief. He will have my support and that of my party.

People should not speak from the corners of their mouths and say one thing while meaning the opposite. They cannot have the best of both worlds. We all want to be on the side of the angels and I must find the angels in the world the Minister lives in. I wish him well in his work and my party will endeavour to give him whatever help we can in discharging his brief.

Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny)

As time is short, I will deal with one topic only, the importance of the FCA, which is discussed in subhead D. Many FCA members have served the country well for many years. A suggestion was made that when they complete their time they should get a certificate signed by the relevant authorities, rather than a letter of discharge, which they could put on display and have for posterity. It is a cheap form of recognition for the work they have done, but it would be welcomed by those who serve in the FCA. I encourage the Minister to investigate this possibility.

Mr. M. Smith

Is the Department of Defence joined with other Departments which have full discretion in relation to expenditure between subheads? The reduction in overall spending is 3 per cent and the Department of Finance agrees aggregate terms with Departments which are able to achieve a reduction in administration to allow for expenditure between subheads. Is the Department of Defence in that group? Do consultancy services vary for the Department of Defence or are they public relation bodies?

Mr. Coveney

The Department has discretion within the 3 per cent reduction. The consultancy provision of £40,000 does not include public relations. The Department of Defence does not have a contract with a public relations consultant. It covers the cost of possible consultancy services areas such as strategic management initiative, development of computerisation in the Department and meeting public relations needs which may arise. We have not engaged a public relations consultant, although we have in-house consultants.

Mr. M. Smith

That is the experience in other Departments. It is a significant achievement on the part of administration to get a 3 per cent reduction. Is the Minister satisfied that the services in that subhead can be maintained at 1994 levels?

Mr. Coveney

Yes.

Chairman

Perhaps the Minister would like to reply to some of the other points raised.

Mr. Coveney

Deputy Mulvihill mentioned a number of issues in relation to the Naval Service. As regards recruitment, 80 ratings and a number of cadets — I do not know the exact figure — were recruited last year for the service. Ten cadets from the total recruited will be allocated to the Naval Service this year. If, as I hope, we get another ship in January 1996 when the new fishery regulations come into force in relation to the Irish Box, that will require a new crew. We could not have another ship without providing a crew for it. The sooner I know the position the better because one cannot recruit trained crew from the marketplace.

Deputy Mulvihill mentioned the age of the ships. We have spent and are spending significant amounts of money on maintenance. This is included under subhead J, Ships and Naval Stores, where the total estimate for 1995 is £3.8 million, of which £2.5 million will be used to maintain vessels. I am satisfied that we are keeping our ships up to standard. I take the Deputy's point about their age, but it would not be possible to replace the entire fleet at one time. I hope to do that on a phased basis in the future. There is general agreement between naval experts, the Department of Defence, the Department of the Marine and myself that we should have approximately ten ships; we have seven at present. If we get EU agreement as quickly as possible, I hope to have an additional ship by early next year. I am not planning to dispose of any of the existing ships in the short term.

I am not sure about this situation because we hope to deal with it at the June fisheries meeting. I will also have a one-to-one meeting with Commissioner Benino prior to that meeting so that we can lay the ground rules. My officials and those from the Department of the Marine are going to Brussels next week to speak to their counterparts in the Commission about this matter. I hope to have more information next month.

The Deputy raised questions about morale in the Naval Service. The Deputy may know more about that than I do because he is a former member and he lives in that area. I believe that morale in the navy at present is relatively high as a result of its performance and the high public esteem in which it is held. One could say if that is the case some of these issues should be better addressed. I will bear that in mind. However, I would not like it to go out from here that morale in the navy is low. It has good reason to be proud of its achievements. I take the Deputy's point because he knows the situation in Haulbowline.

A number of speakers referred to the drugs issue which is a complex one. It is generally perceived that co-ordination between the Customs and Excise, the Garda Síochána and the Naval Service needs to be tightened up. The Minister for Justice is bringing forward a proposal in this regard which will combine co-ordination with a wide range of issues. I have some knowledge of our seas and the coasts will never be secured by our navy alone. I could take a yacht into any port in west Cork or Kerry, drop an anchor and no one would ever come near me. I cannot do that in England, France or in any other EU country to my knowledge because a Customs and Excise official would immeditaely come on board to check the boat. We must address this area as well because we need to be able to board yachts and boats in harbours around the coast. That is not a job for the Naval Service, but for the Customs and Excise officials. The expertise of the Naval Service must be combined with that of the Custom and Excise.

The Deputy mentioned early retirement. Was that in the context of the ongoing review process?

Mr. Mulvihill

Yes. People who were in the Defence Forces for 30 or 40 years and who reach retirement age are suddenly discharged and must return to civilian life to which they have not been accustomed. The Defence Forces lose interest in these people when they retire. The Minister must provide some facilities for these people when they retire.

Mr. Coveney

Does the Deputy mean by way of retirement courses?

Mr. Mulvihill

Yes.

Mr. Coveney

I accept the Deputy's point, although I understand that such programmes are in operation.

Deputy Wallace's point about the Price Waterhouse process is well taken. If one were to do it again I suppose one would do it a little differently. The difficulty was that the efficiency audit group received a report from Price Waterhouse in July 1994 and was not in a position to report to Government until December, while that report was substantially leaked deliberately to upset people in the Defence Forces. That was compounded by the fact that the Government changed. When I was appointed at the end of December I knew nothing about it. While I would like to have got it to Government quickly I did not wish to do that until I understood what it was about and until I had consulted widely. I consulted with all of the organisations, including other groups who asked to see me. They included retired Army personnel and people in less formal organisations than PDFORRA and RACO. That is why it has taken longer that it would otherwise have taken. It has given rise to anxieties in the Defence Forces which I am anxious to bring to a conclusion quickly.

I agree with the points made about the bands. Deputy Wallace asked me about barracks. Price Waterhouse did an extraordinary thing in the report which made life difficult for me and my predecessors. They said, on the one hand, that barracks closures should only be considered in the context of a detailed report and study carried out at the time. On the other hand, instead of saying no more they proceeded to say, as an aside, that half of them should be closed. To say, on the one hand, that a study must be carried out before anything should be done and, on the other hand, to announce the result before the study is carried out, put me and my predecessor in a difficult position about barracks. Until the first three year process is well in hand we cannot begin to know how our numbers will pan out. In other words, the numbers who take voluntary retirement from the Defence Forces will depend largely on their perception of the voluntary redundancy package. If many people go or if a few people go will dramatically affect consideration of what facilities are necessary for the Army of the future. Barrack closures cannot be seriously addressed for another couple of years. However, we will start a process of looking at that issue within the three year period and not at the end of it. I could not anticipate the outcome of that process. It would be dishonest to say that there will never be a barracks closed in Ireland.

Mr. D. Wallace

Is the Minister contemplating a reduction in overall Defence Forces numbers?

Mr. Coveney

Yes.

Mr. D. Wallace

The policy is that eventually there will be reduced numbers in the Defence Forces and that will affect closures?

Mr. Coveney

There will be some reductions. When that is substantially under way it will be necessary to look at its implications. However, that lies in the future. I have no idea what number of barracks will be closed or where they will be. There is no point in worrying ourselves to death about it three or four years in advance.

Mr. D. Wallace

The plan is to have fewer people in the Defence Forces, is it not?

Mr. Coveney

Yes. Deputy Kemmy encouraged me to remain candid and open and I hope I will. I thank him for his comments. A number of them were interesting and I can only respond by agreeing with them and thanking the Deputy for his support.

With regard to the role of the Defence Forces in Ireland today, we cannot make decisions far beyond three years anyway. When the previous Government commissioned this study the situation was different from today and it is conceivable that in a couple of years time it will be different again. We hope the peace process will have progressed and become more permanent. There are issues related to our future role in peacekeeping and, conceivably, peace enforcement requests. The situation is changing and our requirements might increase or decrease. We cannot definitively announce a ten year plan. We will be doing well if we can announce some general aspirations in that direction, proceed with a detailed implementation for the first three years and review the situation then.

Deputy Kemmy also spoke about drugs and I have commented on that. Deputy Browne spoke about a certificate for the FCA. That is under consideration. I cannot give him an immediate answer but we will note his point. Deputy Clohessy and Deputy Smith also made some comments. Both made a strong plea for consultation in the context of the review process. I take that plea on board. The best hope we have of implementing the review process within the Defence Forces is, as far as possible, to carry people with us. We cannot consult to such an extent that every single person agrees with every single item. However, I hope there will be a general acceptance within the Oireachtas and within the Defence Forces that what we are doing is reasonable, practical and right, although obviously there will be disagreement about detail. However, it will not be for lack of consultation. I give that pledge today.

I agree with many other points made by Deputy Smith and Deputy Clohessy.

Chairman

The Minister has covered a broad expanse. Before we conclude discussing subhead A, the Minister said in the course of his reply that he was anxious to bring his own maritime skills and undoubted experience to bear on the coast watch.

Mr. Conveney

That was an aside.

Chairman

I recall that when discussing border control and border enforcement, this committee was informed of an extraordinary incident that took place off the Cork coast. Customs personnel who were anxious to board a suspect yacht were obliged to rely on the goodwill of some local fishermen to take them out to the yacht to carry out their investigations. When they arrived they conducted various discussions with an alleged drug baron and, because the boat that brought them out was unseaworthy, they had to ask the suspected drug baron to lower his dinghy, move his yacht a little closer to the coast and bring these people back. That is most embarrassing. It is indicative of the problems we are experiencing in guarding our coasts, particularly in the context of the drugs problem. I hope the Minister and his colleagues will impress on our European partners the need to look at the Irish coast and coastal services to ensure that this type of embarrassing incident is not a frequent occurrence. It is extraordinary in the context of what is happening on our coasts.

Mr. Coveney

I read about that incident. Obviously, it is unacceptable. A decision was taken at the Government meeting this morning. You will recall that the Taoiseach made some comments about a European dimension to the drug problem. To my knowledge, there is no obvious funding facility within the EU at present. The Government has decided to set up an interdepartmental group in the context of our forthcoming presidency in 1996 to look at the possibility of bring forwward some initiatives. That is not to say we will put off what the Minister for Justice will suggest shortly, but that we will form an interdepartmental group between the Departments of Justice, Health, the Marine, Defence, Foreign Affairs and the Revenue Commissioners. We will I hope bring forward a serious European initiative against drugs during our Presidency.

Mr. Power

Bearing in mind that pay and allowances account for 80 per cent of the total Estimate, is it not impossible for there to be real reform in the Defence Forces when working within that ratio? How soon does he expect to be in a position to change that?

Mr. Coveney

Deputy Power is correct to point to the figure. A ratio of 70:30 would, I understand, be acceptable for a defence force of our type. If net reductions in numbers are made one can begin to redress that balance. If one was working within roughly the same total sum and one had less people to pay, by definition one would have more money to spend on equipment. I want to work towards that and I accept the principle of what the Deputy said.

Mr. Power

How soon will the voluntary early retirement scheme be put in place? Since this package was first announced few people have left the Defence Forces — I do not have figures for that but I am aware of it from talking to people. The age profile problem is increasing. The sooner the Minister comes forward with proposals the better; it will make reform much easier.

Mr. Coveney

The Deputy is right. The position is getting worse because people are anticipating a retirement package and are not retiring in the same numbers as they were, which makes it more critical to provide a package.

The report of the review process will be brought to Government within two weeks. Assuming we get a Government decision the same day we will set up an implementation group which will be required within three months to prepare a detailed three year plan. While that goes on the Department of Defence will commence preparing the package and discussions will be ongoing with the representative bodies. We will not wait for the three months to start preparing the package because we know that it is the central plank. I hope the package will be available before the end of this year.

Mr. Power

Are there any plans within the Department to retrain these people? They have been working in a specialised area, in some cases for many years. It might be more difficult to find alternative employment on leaving the defence forces than on leaving other industries. Has the Minister investigated the possibility of obtaining European moneys for retraining?

Mr. Coveney

We have not. One should bear in mind this is a voluntary redundancy package; people may avail of it or not, as they wish. Many older Army personnel have asked me to go ahead with the scheme because they want to leave. There is an appetite for a reasonable package but I do not know whether some element of retraining would be incorporated in it. I will take note of the Deputy's suggestion.

Mr. Power

From the Minister's viewpoint it is important to give them what they need rather than exactly what they want.

Mr. McGrath

Is there a difference?

Mr. Power

There is. Surely there are funds available in Europe?

Mr. Coveney

It is an interesting thought. The Deputy knows the package will be constrained by the Department of Finance on overall expenditure, etc. It will not be easy to get it right but if we do not, we will not get the take up level we need. I will take note of the point.

Chairman

I take it Deputy Power does not have Mondello Park in mind when he talks about retraining. Can we take it we have dealt comprehensively with subhead A? With the consent of the committee we will consider subheads B to F, which provide for pay and allowances for the Permanent Defence Forces, which has been raised by Deputy Power already; the reserve defence force, raised by Deputy Browne; and civilians attached to units of the Permanent Defence Force.

Mr. M. Smith

Does the Permanent Defence Force include those who are on contract? If so, does it also include provision for what the Minister proposes in his new recruitment scheme? In other words is there provision in 1995 for such a scheme?

Mr. Coveney

There is. We have provision in 1995 for recruitment of about 250.

Mr. M. Smith

Will the process of recruitment commence in mid-summer?

Mr. Coveney

One of the difficulties is that the figure of 250 is in the context of an overall number, which was predicated on an anticipated drop out rate per month. That rate is not being met because people are waiting for the package. My best guess is that recruitment would commence in early autumn, possibly September.

Mr. M. Smith

It still will not make sense in the overall package. Even if we assume a take up on the early retirement scheme — which we hope will happen this year — the age profile will not change unless the Minister goes ahead with recruitment. The drive for new recruits will have to continue.

Mr. Coveney

I accept that. It is clearly stated in all the reports that we need to attack it from both ends.

Mr. M. Smith

Two hundred and fifty people will therefore be recruited in the autumn?

Mr. Coveney

Yes, but I cannot speak about the years ahead as yet. We will watch critically the overall position and how many are leaving. We need to recruit a certain number each year to bring the age profile down.

Mr. M. Smith

At this stage, the Minister should not take the advice of Deputy Kemmy and speculate about the certainty for 1996 and 1997 with the possibility of persuading one's colleagues. That is certainly the case as regards 1996 — I will not speak about 1997 yet.

Mr. Kemmy

I can assure Deputy Smith that while I advised all Ministers my words invariably fell on deaf ears. I continue to press ahead.

Mr. M. Smith

Does Deputy Kemmy want me to produce a report of what he said about me when I visited Limerick? It was quite good.

Mr. Kemmy

I thank Deputy Smith for the encouragement; I can do with it at this stage of my life. I agree with Deputy Power that we do not have much scope in speaking about salaries because they take up four fifths of the total Estimate. In the Estimate the Minister is spending £19 million on new equipment, which is £2 million more than the overall increase in expenditure over the 1994 figures. There is little scope in that area, when one considers that the increase of £17 million goes towards expenditure on new equipment alone. That is inadequate if we are to keep pressure on those illegally entering our waters. I agree with the Minister that that sends the right signal. For a long time fish were dying of old age around our shores. Predators from Spain and the old Soviet Union fished within our waters but we could not do much about it because we had no fleet. One cannot have one's loaf and eat it in that context.

I also support what he said about the balance of officers. There are 1,550 officers, 11,300 non-commissioned officers, 60 cadets and 65 members. That proportion of officers to men seems out of kilter; there are too many chiefs and not enough Indians. The Minister must examine that balance because there may be savings there. It may be the only way to make money available for equipment.

Overall we do not have the mobility the Deputy spoke about. His point about the transition from the forces into civilian life was well made. In other countries army training is used as a means to qualify for work elsewhere and there is great mobility between the armed forces and outside employment.

There is no reason why we could not follow Deputy Mulvihill's suggestion of a transition course, if necessary, for people leaving the services. One might also invoke the help of FÁS to prepare people because the transition should not be as traumatic as Members have indicated it is. People should be able to serve time in the Defence Forces and go on to a career elsewhere.

Some people have the wrong attitude to mobility. As politicians our job security is limited so we have to get on with life. Many of us have had other occupations. Similarly people in the Defence Forces must understand they should use their service as an apprenticeship for other trades, rather than deciding one is a soldier and nothing else. The discipline learnt in the Army should help a soldier in other careers. Many people have gone on to other posts after serving in the Army.

I have no argument about the figures before us. There is no way to improve them and we should not try to economise because the Minister has little or no scope in that area, since four-fifths of the money is spent on wages and salaries.

Mr. M. Smith

Civilian employees represent around 10 per cent of the total. Can the Minister say why that is so high?

Mr. Mulvihill

The Minister said there would be a recruitment of 250 this year. What way will that be broken down?

Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny)

Two hundred for Cork.

Mr. Mulvihill

Will there be 200 for the Navy and 50 for the Air Corps and the Army?

Mr. Coveney

That has not been decided yet.

Mr. Mulvihill

If a new crew has to be found and trained for a ship there will not be many left from the total of 250.

Mr. Coveney

The crew of a Peacock class ship is 40 and to crew it competently a crew and a half is needed, that is 60 people. If we get a new vessel I do not know if it will be that heavily crewed. The question of a new ship and crewing it for next year is a separate issue. In response to Deputy Kemmy, the ratio of officers to other ranks is addressed in the review both by Price Waterhouse and the EAG and will form part of the adjustment which will take place. Deputy Smith asked at the beginning whether subheads B to F include contractors. Those are all full time.

Mr. M. Smith

They are regarded as permanent?

Mr. Coveney

Yes, they are all permanent. He also asked about the number of civilians. The Estimate provides for a strength of 1,340 as compared with 1,350 in 1994. Civilian employees are engaged to provide a range of services for the Defence Forces at military barracks across the country. In the main they comprise the following: 442 craftsmen, 415 general operatives, 110 storepersons, 115 clerical staff, 145 catering and domestic staff, 50 technical staff, 15 professional staff and 48 others.

Mr. M. Smith

Will the early retirement package apply across the board to them also?

Mr. Coveney

At the moment it does not.

Mr. M. Smith

For none of those areas?

Mr. Coveney

The early retirement package is for the Permanent Defence Forces, not the skilled civilian tradesmen, etc.

Mr. M. Smith

If the likely take up level from the early retirement package is achieved, will that not again increase the percentage of civilians in the Defence Forces?

Mr. Coveney

It may. That point should be examined. These are public service employees, so they have normal rights.

Mr. M. Smith

Has there been any representations from these groups?

Mr. Coveney

There have been no discussions on that subject as yet. We will take a note of it.

Mr. McGrath

The Minister's response to Deputy Power about the early retirement package highlighted what is happening. A number of serving members of the Defence Forces are urgently waiting for the introduction for the package. They are not retiring at present and they would be crazy to do so if a package will be available to them within the not too distant future.

Mr. M. Smith

Hopefully it will be available.

Mr. McGrath

When the Minister designs the package, can it be based on length of service rather than age? If it is offered on the basis that people over the age of 45 or 50 can retire, someone who joined the forces at 18 and wants to retire at 44 will not be able to avail of it, whereas someone who joined at 28 and is over the age threshold can. The scheme should be based on the number of years service in the Defence Forces.

In tandem with the early retirement package should be a recruitment package. The Minister said he hoped to recruit 250 this year, which is welcome. If he gets a quick agreement on the early retirement package, perhaps the figure of 250 can be increased. We hope he can push the figure as high as possible because a large number of young people are anxious to join the Defence Forces.

Mr. Coveney

That is true.

Mr. McGrath

Recruitment last occurred in 1994 and we should remind our brethren across the table that there was no recruitment to the Defence Forces in 1991, 1992 and 1993. It is good to see people being recruited but I hope the Minister pushes the figure as high as possible. The earlier the retirement package is available, the better he will know how many he will need to recruit.

Another matter of interest is the reserve forces, in particular the FCÁ. I am from a rural area and I recently met FCÁ members. I am glad many units are in operation in small isolated villages at virtually no cost to the Department. It is good to see a small unit of the FCÁ carrying out its training, albeit irregularly, in a rural village as the inhabitants appreciate the presence of the Defence Forces.

I welcome the Minister's commitment to increased funding for the FCÁ— I hope it will continue and that the Minister will encourage the officers in charge of it to keep the small rural units in operation. They represent a Government Department operating in a small village, albeit in a small way. It does not cost a lot and should be encouraged.

I notice there are 22 chaplains attached to the Defence Forces. How are they recruited? Are they recommended by a bishop or do they go through a training period? We do not have one in my area but I wonder how they are recruited.

I am delighted a number of civilians have been recruited in my area recently. Some duties, such as kitchen duties, are being done by trained soldiers. On a unit basis a trained soldier costs the Department up to £300 a week, whereas a civilian employee could do the same job, does not need the same training and could carry out the job on a full-time basis at a lower cost. It is a waste of resources, talent and training to have some of the members of the Defence Forces carrying out duties which could be adequately performed by civilians. I encourage the Minister to examine this matter. Our trained soldiers have special talents and we should use them to their maximum ability.

Mr. M. Smith

I remember hearing from people in the Defence Forces that there are quite a number of personnel who, for one reason or another, are not now able to participate in regular Army duties but who are able to participate in work of this kind. Some people are not now suitable for regular defence duties and do work which otherwise might have to be done by civilians.

Mr. Coveney

The number of years service will obviously be a critical factor in the redundancy package. I do not anticipate we can increase the recruitment numbers of 250. To be fair to my predecessors, 500 were taken on last year. The numbers were quite small in the years immediately before that but a good start was made last year, and I hope to follow that example and increase the numbers in the future. It will depend on getting this balance right.

Mr. Power

Will the terms of employment be on the same basis as last year?

Mr. Coveney

Yes, I think they will. I take Deputy McGrath's point about the FCÁ and I will be supportive of it. The clergymen are nominated by the bishop and appointed by the Minister, and generally work within their own diocese.

Mr. McGrath

And promoted by whom?

Mr. Coveney

That is done within the military service. Deputy McGrath referred to the catering functions. There are already initiatives to involve contract caterers in certain aspects of the catering requirements of the Defence Forces. There is a need to maintain a corps of in-house caterers. When the forces are in the field, in Lebanon for example, one of the features of our Defence Forces is their expertise in cooking which is important for the morale of troops.

Mr. McGrath

I was not referring specifically to the cooks or chefs but to kitchen attendants doing the washing up or laying the tables. It seems a waste of resources that trained soldiers should do it. I appreciate Deputy Smith's point. There has to be room for those winding down who have been injured. However, to have soldiers who would otherwise be able to do military duties doing such duties seems a waste of resources.

Mr. Coveney

It was a general comment made in relation to the Defence Forces by the Price Waterhouse report and the EAG that there were too many trained soldiers doing jobs for which they had not been trained, which was a bad utilisation of personnel. However, the matter will be addressed.

Mr. M. Smith

Perhaps the Minister would consider that point in relation to himself and the two functions he performs.

Mr. Coveney

I did.

Chairman

I suggest we deal with subheads G to BB — the provision for equipment stores, services and maintenance requirements for the Defence Forces — and CC to EE — providing for the Civil Defence and grants-in-aid for the Irish Red Cross Society and Coiste an Asgard — together. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. M. Smith

With regard to aircraft, there is a reduction this year of 20 per cent on 1994 and this obviously relates to the purchase of aircraft in 1994. In the context of his projections for 1996, the Minister will require an increased Estimate for a further purchase to be effective from 1 January. Does he consider that a realistic possibility?

In relation to bank security and the transfer of funds, is the Estimate self sufficient? Do the banks reimburse the Department of Defence completely for its outlay?

Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny)

Those in the Curragh have medical services but those in neighbouring counties, Carlow for example, have to pay their own medical expenses when they come home. Can that be balanced out? It is unfair that a person who drives home 30 miles from the Curragh has to pay full medical expenses if he or she or the family need expensive drugs whereas in the Curragh they would have full hospital services free. It may not be a fair question to ask at this stage but maybe it is something the Minister would consider because there should be overall balance in relation to medical expenses for Army personnel.

Mr. Coveney

I will return to that in a moment. Deputy Smith had three questions. Subhead H, aircraft, is down because the CASAs were largely paid for in 1994 and there was only one payment in 1995.

Mr. M. Smith

The Minister was expecting a purchase of another ship to be effective from 1 January 1996——

Mr. Coveney

That will be under subhead J.

Mr. M. Smith

——but when the Department of Finance succeeds in getting a reduction in one year it makes the task a little more difficult. Is the Minister sure he can secure the extra ship?

Mr. Coveney

A lot depends on what percentage of the cost will be paid by the EU.

Mr. M. Smith

The Minister will not know that until June.

Mr. Coveney

June at the earliest. There is some suggestion that the rules now requires a new ship. If that is the case, it would be impossible.

Mr. M. Smith

In that length of time there would be no hope.

Mr. Coveney

I need to clarify whether the Commission will allow us to purchase a second-hand ship. That will be clarified next week by the officials. I cannot see why they would not allow this. There is an excess of ships all over Europe but there might be some employment requirement attached to the grant-in-aid to create employment in European shipyards. It may be so. We have not clarified that.

Mr. M. Smith

It would be counter-productive because they would already be subsidising taking some of those ships out of commission in another port.

Mr. Coveney

That is right. I hope that is not the case. I cannot say whether we would get the 75 per cent for which we are looking. We also need to clarify what percentage of the operational cost, which we secured in principle but not in detail in December, we will get.

The security costs we recover are in the Appropriations-in-aid at the end of the Estimate. There is only a total sum but the amount of receipts from banks in respect of cash escort services has gone up from £1.5 million to £2.25 million in this year's Estimate. It does not represent the total cost which is hard to work out. It is a contribution towards the cost and no more.

Mr. M. Smith

When the Minister says it is a contribution, could he enlighten me a litte further? In percentage terms, would it be 50 per cent of the cost?

Mr. Coveney

It is roughly 50 per cent. I will try to get the correct figure but it is roughly that. To be fair, the institutions probably say they are paying taxes and are entitled to something and the figure was raised from £1.5 million £2.25 million in this year's Estimate.

Mr. M. Smith

It still seems unreasonable that, while banking institutions have a number of facilities available to them to charge the public for services and make a substantial profit, the Department of Defence subsidises them for services they enjoy at 50 per cent of the cost.

Mr. Coveney

I suppose it is a service to the public too.

Mr. M. Smith

The public would argue that they pay for those services.

Mr. Coveney

Yes. I know that. They are paying an increasing percentage of the total cost.

Mr. M. Smith

The Minister could look for another increase in the autumn.

Mr. Coveney

Yes. Maybe. At least the present Government increased the amount in the Estimate.

Mr. Mulvihill

There is a dry dock facility in Haulbowline. Is it envisaged that this facility will be repaired and that the Naval Service will repair and maintain their own ships? If they had their own docking facilities in Haulbowline and were able to carry out their repairs without going to civilian dockyards, there would be quite a considerable saving for the Department.

Mr. Coveney

I do not know the answer to Deputy Browne's question on medical expenses. I will have to look into it. The Deputy effectively said that if a barracks has a hospital, the people there have an advantage over people who serve elsewhere. That is clearly a fact. I will have to look into it.

Mr. Power

On subhead AA, what percentage of compensation relates to civilians?

Mr. Coveney

The total figure is £4.8 million.

Mr. Power

That is right.

Mr. Coveney

The bulk of the expenditure in this subhead arises from civil claims by members and former members of the Defence Forces in respect of personal injuries arising from accidents, injuries which occur in the course of duty, road traffic accidents involving military vehicles and the consequent personal injuries and material damage claims arising from that. The details of the expenditure is as follows: in 1991, the figure was £2.94 million; in 1992, it rose to £3.06 million; in 1993, £3.56 million; in 1994, £4.75 million. The figure is growing.

Mr. M. Smith

Does that include the numbers of claims or the amount of claims? Or both?

Mr. Coveney

The numbers of claims at the moment. The approximate number of new claims received in 1988 was 120. Last year, they numbered 643 and, to date in 1995, they number 843.

Mr. Power

They are from all——

Mr. Coveney

Yes. They are from all sources.

Mr. Power

Obviously, it is a problem and there is a need to be careful. A balance must be struck in tryng to carry out duties, training, practice and so on. At the Curragh, there are people living close by and normal life must be allowed to continue. A road near a school on the Curragh has been used by locals for a long time and there was an attempt in recent times to have the road closed off. I gather it was purely for safety reasons.

Mr. Coveney

That instruction was cancelled.

Mr. Power

I am aware of that but it created terrible problems with the local people who were up in arms. I know a balance must be struck but it is important to have greater dialogue with local people when major changes are planned. I can understand from the figures mentioned that compensation is an escalating problem.

Mr. Coveney

It will be frightening in the years ahead.

Mr. Power

Measures will have to be put in place to try to reduce those figures.

Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny)

Are claims contested? Sometimes insurers pay without contesting to get rid of claims. Is the Army encouraging claims?

Mr. Coveney

No. Claims are contested. That does not mean they would not be settled in certain instances where it is prudent to do so but they are contested vigorously.

Mr. L. Fitzgerald

Would the Minister agree, from the figures provided, that there is a kind of "claims culture" creeping into the Army? Is that a fair assessment? I do not know. Can the Minister give a "yes" or "no" answer? He will be aware that the claims culture is escalating on a national basis but particularly in the Dublin region.

Mr. Coveney

The growth of expenditure under this subhead is principally due to the increased tendency, in society in general, to institute legal proceedings, particularly where the defendant is seen as a good "mark". I do not beleive it is any different in the Defence Forces. It is present there as it in in the rest of society.

Mr. L. Fitzgerald

On subhead K — General Stores — it is odd that there should be an increase of 103 per cent, when the average increase is much less than that. The figure for mechanical transport could be accepted — with depreciation, renewal of equipment and replacement requirements there could be an increase of 74 per cent in any one year. Why was there such a huge increase of 103 per cent in the allocation for General Stores?

Mr. Coveney

This is largely due to one item, signal equipment. An amount of £1 million is included in respect of an initial payment for a tactical VHF radio replacement programme. This has been in the pipeline for some time. It has come on stream this year. In 1994 the figure for signal equipment was £483,000. In 1995 it is £1.58 million, which accounts for the bulk of the increase. That system has been in the offing for some time. There was a long tendering process etc. and money was not available. It was finally able to proceed this year.

Mr. M. Smith

On subhead V — Buildings — there is a significant increase which has to do with the closure of Collins Barracks. Is any money beng spent in country areas?

Mr. Coveney

Yes. Of that figure of £13.5 million a sum of £3.2 million is being spent on Collins Barracks in Dublin. There are consequential payments to two other barracks, which are also in Dublin. There is a very wide disbursal of funds. The refurbishment in McKee Barracks accounts for £3.8 million and the work in Cathal Brugha Barracks is to cost £3.3 million. Both of these projects arise as a result of the decision regarding Collins Barracks. Collins Barracks is being closed and two other Dublin barracks are being enlarged and refurbished. There are a total of 23 projects throughout the country: McKee Barracks, Kickham Barracks, Cork Military Hospital, Haulbowline, three for the Curragh Camp, Castleblayney, Lifford etc. The Deputy can have a copy of the list if he wishes.

Mr. Clohessy

On a point of information, Deputy Mulvihill spoke earlier about the age of the vessels in the Naval Service. Is the surveillance equipment on those vessels up to 1995 standards?

Mr. Coveney

We have a very sophisticated navigation and surveillance package in Haulbowline, both in the naval base itself and on our ships. This, combined with the CASA aircraft, means that we have a very sophisticated, modern system. The cost of that type of equipment is decreasing. It is no longer as expensive as it used to be. Satellite fixing systems etc. have decreased quite an amount in price. We are well equipped in that respect.

Mr. McGrath

My first point relates to subhead N — Clothing. I am aware that new kits are being issued to all serving members of the Defence Forces. They are very welcome and are of excellent quality, particularly the boots. However, I believe there is some animosity among members of the FCA because they cannot have new uniforms issued to them. Are there any negotiations with the FCA regarding this matter? Does the Minister intend to introduce the new equipment to the FCA? At what stage will this be done? I agree with the Minister that someone cannot be given an expensive second outfit on the day they enlist. At what stage will they receive the second outfit, which is of such high quality?

Mr. M. Smith

With regard to the contracts for those kits, are they domestically produced?

Mr. Coveney

I believe so. The question of clothing requirements for the Reserve Defence Force is currently under examination by the military authorities. Provision of new items of clothing similar to those issued to members of the Permanent Defence Force will be considered. The outcome of that review will be available shortly. I could not put an exact date on it. There is awareness that this issue is causing some irritation. However, there are also cost consequences to be considered. It is under current review.

Mr. Mulvihill

I want to reply to the question I asked on subhead J with regard to the naval dockyard.

Mr. Coveney

I am sorry I did not return to that question.

Chairman

Yes. The earlier question about Haulbowline.

Mr. Mulvihill

Also on medical expenses. Do we have a two-tier system in the Defence Forces for medical treatment? I have had a number of complaints from ratings within the Defence Forces that they were not allowed access to civilian treatment on a number of occasions. They maintain that it is easy for officers to obtain this treatment but difficult for ratings. Do we have a two-tier system?

Mr. Coveney

We do not. The Deputy is saying that some of the non-commissioned personnel were required to have their treatment within the military establishment, rather than being allowed to avail of a civilian hospital.

Mr. Mulvihill

Yes.

Mr. Coveney

I would be disturbed if I thought that was the case.

Mr. Mulvihill

I will take this issue up with the Minister at a later date.

Mr. Coveney

On the question of the naval dockyard, there are implications there for capital expenditure. It is not simply a question of wheeling the ships into the dockyard. I presume that would have to be looked at in the context of what the capital costs would be, as opposed to using whatever existing facilities are already available. It is a fair question and needs to be considered.

Mr. Mulvihill

Has a proposal been put to the Department with regard to opening the naval dockyard?

Mr. Coveney

No, I am not aware of one.

Mr. E. Walsh

With regard to subhead CC — Civil Defence. Is there any proposal to have a new uniform for the Civil Defence corps?

Mr. Coveney

I am not aware of any proposal for new Civil Defence uniforms, other than new slacks for the ladies. They seem to be happy with what they have. I do not know what the ladies wore before now.

Mr. M. Smith

No element of discrimination.

Mr. E. Walsh

The Civil Defence corps does a valuable job in the community. The uniform they wear is quite old. Since the uniforms of all other branches of the service are being upgraded, I wonder if the Civil Defence be considered also.

Mr. Coveney

We will take a note of that.

Chairman

We have certainly exhausted discussion of the Estimate when we are discussing trousers for the Civil Defence. With the consent of committee Members, we will move on to debate subhead Z, to which we already referred. Is there another point that Members would like to make?

Mr. L. Fitzgerald

Will the Minister explain the national lottery funded grant-in-aid, under subhead EE, to Coiste an Asgard? What are the criteria for the grant-in-aid? What decisions are being made on the present location of the Asgard? I recently put down a parliamentary question to the Minister’s colleague — the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Higgins — in relation to the Asgard. I have a personal interest in this, as Howth is my constituency. I will enable the Minister to anticipate the supplementary question at this point.

Mr. Coveney

Coiste an Asgard receives a block grant of £300,000 in respect of which it has discretion of use. It can carry money over from one year to the next. As the Deputy will know, a major overhaul of the Asgard was carried out from October to February. It had a new engine installed and has been substantially refitted. The figure of £300,000 appears each year. What happened is that all that money was not used in the previous year and the coiste then used a bigger amount to do the upgrading. The money is recouped by the Department from the national lottery, for a reason unknown to me. It makes no difference to us: we get the £300,000 for the coiste but it comes out of the national lottery fund, rather than the normal Department of Finance allocation to the Department of Defence. That is the way it has been dealt with for some years.

Mr. L. Fitzgerald

Where is it berthed?

Mr. Coveney

I presume it is on tour around the coast. I do not know. If the Deputy wonders if I have any plans to make Cork the home port for the Asgard. I do not. The Asgard does a good job and its crew are good representatives for Ireland.

Chairman

I am sure there would be resistance from the northside of Dublin if that should come to pass. We will move to subhead Z briefly. Deputy Smith raised the matter of the bank escorts.

Mr. McGrath

On Vote 37 — Army Pensions, I want to come back to a hobby horse of mine. I am sure officials in the Department of Defence are tired of me raising the issue of pensions in the Defence Forces. I have been pursuing it for four years but I have not made much progress. I hope I can prevail upon the new Minister, to, at least take a fresh and compassionate look at the issue. There are an estimated 180 widows of ex-servicemen who, through no fault of their own, are not in receipt of a pension from the Department of Defence. I can cite several cases to the Minister. One lady's husband who served 41 years in the Defence Forces died suddenly. When she got over the trauma of his death, the funeral and so on, she went to the local Army barracks to make the necessary arrangements to get his pension. Unbelieveably, she was told that she did not qualify for a pension from the Defence Forces. The Minister will tell us that, in 1978, the first scheme came into place whereby members of the Defence Forces could opt into a pension scheme for widows and orphans.

Mr. Coveney

Or not, as the case might be.

Mr. McGrath

They could opt in or out, as the case might be. The scheme was repeated in 1984, but its deficiency was that the people affected by it had no knowledge that their husbands had the option of opting in or out. They were not given the choice and they had no knowledge that their husbands had opted out. I put it to the Minister that a person, who happened to be in the cookhouse when his unit was briefed on what was happening in relation to this present scheme, was not officially made aware that this scheme was in place. Hence, quite a number opted out.

About 180 widows have no pension from the Defence Forces and, as I said, many of their husbands clocked up tremendous years of service in the Army. They are trying to survive on the ordinary widow's pension of £61 per week and, with normal commitments and so on, they are struggling, even though their husbands had given valiant service to this country. Believe it or not, there are still 2,000 soldiers serving in the Defence Forces who are not in this scheme. It is criminal that people in that situation should be allowed to opt out of a scheme that will not affect them but which will affect their spouses when they die. Obviously, not all the 2,000 soldiers are married but quite a number have spouses who are not aware that their husbands have not opted into that scheme. It is a deplorable situation. I appreciate the Minister will tell me that he cannot give a full pension to those 180 or so widows around the country.

However, there is room for the Department of Defence to make some gesture towards those widows, who are all elderly ladies now and who went through difficult times. Their husbands were in the Army when pay was low and conditions very difficult, and they put up with their fair share of hardship. They are now being left high and dry by the Department of Defence. There must be some gesture that the Minister can make towards them: maybe not a full pension, but he could give them something. I suggest that the method of funding would be that the 2,000 people still serving should be encouraged to join the widow's and orphan's scheme. That would go a long way towards funding whatever the Minister gives to the 180 widows. The issue will not go away. I will continue to pursue it as long as I can. I hope that the Minister, with the fresh spirit of a new Minister in the Department, will take a new look at it because it is a worthy cause.

Mr. M. Smith

I realise the Minister is under a time constraint. I wish to offer a word of support to Deputy McGrath. He might consider including a number of categories of people whose spouses — such as teachers and local authority employees — did not, for one reason or another, sign into the widow's and orphan's scheme and who have lost out in similar ways. This would not then be a matter for the Minister for Defence: it would be a broader issue. It would obviously require a change in the various superannuation Acts, to allow for some change. There are definitely some genuine people who have lost out, through no fault of their own. Perhaps the Minister could also use his offices with his colleagues to see if amendments to those Acts could deal with this problem and also with the ancillary problems affecting other groups and categories of people.

Mr. Coveney

Deputy Smith has partly answered the question. Of course, on compassionate grounds, one has to be concerned and I thank Deputy McGrath for raising the issue. On the other hand, the principle of a voluntary scheme is that one can volunteer to come in or to come out of it, and one can even do things which are very much against the interests of oneself and one's family. I have great sympathy for the man in the specific incident mentioned by the Deputy, who was in a cook house and did not even know about it. However, there are widespread precedents in the public sector, and to some degree in the private sector, where people made decisions against the best interests of their families. The question then arises as to whether the State should take up the slack and protect those families? If one is speaking of 180 people throughout the country, this situation would be easier to cope with, but one could not deal with it with regard to the Defence Forces by ring fencing them and saying that it does not have implications for anybody else.

I will inquire of my colleagues in Government and will at least spell out the situation in the Defence Forces. However, I cannot make promises regarding the outcome and it would be wrong to raise the expectations of the widows involved. The Deputy has been consistent in raising this issue with my predecessor and I am sure he is not any more or less compassionate than me, but it is a difficult concept for the Government to go along with because of its wider implications in other aspects of the public service. Nevertheless, I thank the Deputy for raising the matter. I will endeavour to ascertain what the consequences may be. The Minister for Finance may be the Minister to approach on it.

Chairman

I thank the Minister and his officials for attending the committee, and I also thank the Minister, for the positive and helpful way in which he addressed the many queries raised by Deputy Smith and others. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Barrett to our deliberations on the Estimate. He will have an opportunity to appear before the committee throughout the summer as we continue our deliberations on the most important issues facing the Defence Forces. I join the Minister, Deputy Smith and others who paid tribute to our Defence Forces, especially perhaps to those who are on active service participating in the UN peace keeping mission. It is a difficult task, but a most important one. We thank the Minister on his first appearance at our committee and look forward to having a positive, open and constructive relationship with him, as Minister for Defence and the Marine, over the coming months.

Mr. Coveney

When I was previously a Member of Dáil Éireann we did not have this committee system. It is a much better way to do business. That people with different party political persuasions can contribute so constructively is heartening for me and good for the administration of Government. I thank the Chairman and Members of the committee for their constructive contributions.

Mr. M. Smith

Thank you, Chairman, for conducting the business of the committee efficiently. I also thank the Minister for attending the committee. The Minister will be here tomorrow afternoon and it would appear that it may be a more adversarial occasion than today. We have had a good, healthy exchange and are grateful for the additional information we received as a result of this debate on the Estimates.

Mr. Clohessy

I wish to be associated with these remarks.

The Select Committee adjourned at 4.55 p.m.