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SELECT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 15 Nov 2005

Social Security Agreement between Ireland and Australia: Motion.

The purpose of the meeting is to consider a motion on a revised social security agreement between the Government of Ireland and the Government of Australia signed in Dublin in June. As members are aware, a motion of referral was passed by the Dáil on 8 November, without debate. We have been circulated with a briefing document by the Department of Social and Family Affairs, together with the text of the convention.

I welcome Mr. Tim Quirke who is no stranger to this committee and Mr. Philip Melville from the Department of Social and Family Affairs who are here to advise on any matters that may arise. The motion has been referred to the select committee in accordance with paragraph (1) of its Orders of Reference. The committee is to send a message to the Dáil no later than 22 November in the manner prescribed in Standing Order 85 and Standing Order 84(2) shall accordingly apply. I invite Mr. Quirke to make a brief statement.

Mr. Tim Quirke

I thank the Chairman for giving me the opportunity to address the select committee at very short notice on the revised agreement. Deputies will have received the briefing note we circulated in which we outline the purpose of the new agreement and the main changes. I will be brief in my statement to the committee.

Since 1992 we have had a bilateral agreement with Australia which protects the social security rights of persons who move between Ireland and Australia, particularly their pension rights. In the case of Ireland, the benefits covered under the agreement are: social insurance long-term benefits such as invalidity pension, old age contributory pension, retirement pension, widow's and widower's contributory pension, orphans' contributory allowance and the bereavement grant. On the first page of the briefing note we have outlined the number of pensions paid under the existing agreement. In total, there are just over 800 — 600 under the Irish system and 200 under the Australian system.

How does the bilateral agreement affect workers and their families? For example, if an Irish person who has paid social insurance but does not qualify for a minimum social insurance pension has worked in Australia, he or she can benefit from the agreement. I have given the example where a person paid Irish contributions for five years and was resident in Australia for 20 years. Under the agreement, we can calculate the pension by taking account of Irish social insurance contributions for five years and residence in Australia for 20 years. The person concerned receives 5/25ths of the Irish pension, instead of having no pension entitlement.

Australian pensions are residence-based and subject to a means test. Australia does not operate a PRSI system as we do. Australians who move to Ireland will continue to receive their Australian pension by virtue of the agreement. The Australian authorities restrict the countries to which Australians can export their pension. Article 12 of the agreement ensures any Irish social assistance payments to which persons are entitled will not have the effect of reducing their Australian pension entitlements.

In 2003 the Irish and Australian authorities decided to review the existing agreement to take account of changes to the each of their systems during the past ten years. On examination, it was found necessary to make certain changes to update the terminology used in the Irish system and to harmonise provisions in minor ways with our social security agreements with other countries. This resulted in a new agreement which was signed in Dublin by the Minister and the Australian ambassador on 9 June. This agreement is now subject to ratification by the Dáil.

The key changes include extending the period for posting of workers from two years to four, whereby workers in one state who are sent by an employer to work for a short time in the territory of another state remain attached to the social security system of their original state. It also ensures employers and employees do not become liable to pay insurance contributions simultaneously in both states. This is a new departure because while the Australian authorities have a means-tested social security system, in 2002 they introduced a mandatory second-tier pension which made it mandatory for all employees to have such a pension. Where an occupational pension was not provided by their employer, employees had to make a mandatory contribution to the revenue commissioners payable into a fund of their choice. The Australian authorities also introduced an insurance contribution system to ensure employees would not become liable for insurance contributions in both states.

Other changes involve adding to the list of social assistance payments disregarded for the purpose of calculating Australian pensions. We have included a provision whereby if a person is resident in Australia for a short period — less than one year — we can take account of this when calculating the Irish pension. We have also included a provision which will help in processing claims by allowing a person to make his or her claim for a pension in either country. There will be co-operation between the Irish and Australian authorities in this regard.

As regards ratification, preparations can be commenced once the agreement has received the approval of Dáil Éireann. This means the new agreement will be brought into force by means of a ministerial order and will become operable on the first day of the second month following the month in which the instruments of ratification are exchanged.

I thank Mr. Quirke.

I do not see any major difficulty with the agreement which has been well explained. I know the Australian authorities are anxious to ratify it by mid-November and bring it into force by January. This makes common sense.

Is this much the same type of agreement we have with other EU member states?

Mr. Quirke

The same principles are used in calculating pensions from an Irish viewpoint. We use the same pro rata calculation formula. As regards EU pensions, we have an EU regulation which deals with all 25 member states but the same principles are used in deciding pension levels.

Is it the same as the agreement with the United States?

Mr. Quirke

Yes.

Therefore, we are extending it to Australia.

Mr. Quirke

Yes.

The agreement is extremely important because it will on a reciprocal basis improve social security protection for those workers and their families who move between the two countries. It ensures contributions made in one country will be eligible for aggregation. As a result, nobody will lose out. It is incumbent on us to deal with this matter, about which there is some urgency. I thank the officials for waiting — it was way beyond the call of duty — due to the fact that our first meeting ran late. We have a duty to facilitate this process because some of our own citizens will benefit from the agreement once it is ratified. We should, therefore, not place any obstacle or impediment in its way. That concludes our discussion of the matter. I thank Mr. Quirke and Mr. Melville for attending the meeting. We look forward to meeting them again in the not too distant future. I am advised that we are requested to adopt a draft motion concerning our consideration of the motion. The text cannot be completed instantly but the draft motion has been circulated and the various points will be inserted. I propose that we authorise the secretariat to make the standard changes and that we adopt the draft report accordingly. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I thank everybody for attending. It has been a long day.

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