Special Committee on the Roads Bill, 1991 díospóireacht

SECTION 17.

Amendments Nos. 56 to 60, inclusive, not moved.

Mr. Yates

I move amendment No. 61:

In page 18, subsection (2), line 8, after "appropriate" to insert", subject to the approval of both Houses of the Oireachtas".

This amendment provides that the Minister may, by regulations, assign to the Authority such additional functions in relation to the construction or maintenance of national roads as from time to time he considers appropriate. This should have the express approval of the Oireachtas. On section 15 (1) we spoke about the Minister having powers of assigning additional functions and the same arguments that there should be limits imposed apply here. The most reasonable way to approach this, without being too inflexible, is to oppose subsection (2), but a fair compromise would be an approval mechanism in the Dáil similar to that which applies to statutory instruments and so on. I ask the Minister, who has not accepted any Opposition amendments, to show goodwill for the patience we are showing.

Mr. Smith

There were some I could have accepted but I thought I would have been under more pressure.

Mr. Yates

To what sections?

Mr. Smith

Section 7 (3) already provides that any regulation made under this section must be laid in draft before both Houses of the Oireachtas and a resolution approving it must be passed by both Houses before the regulation comes into force.

Mr. Kavanagh

I refer to the case I made on section 13; this too seems to permit the Minister to give additional functions and powers.

Mr. Smith

Only with the approval of the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Mr. Kavanagh

I note that but as I said when we were discussing section 13, the section establishing the National Roads Authority provides that those functions can be changed by the Minister. I will continue to make that point because that is what the Minister intends to do.

Mr. Smith

We might try to broaden that a little. In the first instance we are dealing with about 6 per cent of our national road network. We agree that there is a need for streamlining and more efficient management of the resources that are available to deal with this problem in the future when we establish the National Roads Authority. In a number of areas where we are seeking to get agreement between local authorities, this should have happened before now. It is a sign of strength for one authority to be able to complete a road operation which impinges on another, rather than the two setting up separate operations to do the same work. Already in certain local authorities that type of agreement is being put in place but not in others. It is important that we provide this facility.

I do not envisage transferring many new powers by regulation to the National Roads Authority. As I indicated earlier, I am more interested in the local authorities becoming more dynamic and more developmental and to support them in every way I can to achieve that. It would not be consistent with my goal as Minister for the Environment to reduce their powers, except where they can improve the services to the public or remove a bottleneck which cannot be envisaged at this time and then that could only be done with the approval of both Houses of the Oireachtas. However, I do not envisage that there will be cause for concern and I would not approve such a measure if it were not in line with my overall view of how local authorities are to develop. At the same time I will not retreat from taking a course of action where certain local authorities, for one reason or another, want to live in the past.

Mr. Kavanagh

I ask the Minister to be cautious before giving powers to the National Roads Authority which at present reside with the local authorities. Road planning and land use planning have always been the responsibility of the local authorities; it could be said that they have not carried out this function as well as they might have, although in some counties they did very well. Probably that is the principal need for this Bill. I am on record as saying that the uniformity of road planning nationwide is welcome and this is the only way that can be achieved. I want to put it to the Minister that all of us at local authority level, have to implement development plans which encompass land usage and transport problems. If the provisions of the Bill appear to be wide open to removal of more of the statutory——

Mr. Smith

That is definitely not my intention.

Mr. Kavanagh

I accept the Minister's good faith in all of this, but, when the Bill is passed, his good intentions may not be sufficient because future Ministers may downgrade land usage and transport planning at that level. I am merely emphasising the caution that should be taken by those of us who are endeavouring to make this Bill acceptable. I agree with the proposal to establish a National Roads Authority but I do not think the Bill should contain so many powers. However, since the Minister has informed me that any proposed changes will have to be approved by the Dáil, that ensures that we can raise any problems in that forum if and when any such changes are mooted. However, there is need for us now to tease out these matters thoroughly. That is why we in this Committee do not have a guillotine imposed on us as applied in the case of the Housing Bill. We might have had a better discussion on that Bill if we had had such an opportunity. It is reasonable for us to raise these points and indicate our concern at the changes proposed in this Bill.

Mr. Smith

May I put on the record once more that it is not my intention to go down the road of using the method of regulation. Even allowing for the fact that it requires a vote, or the support of the Oireachtas to achieve it, it is not my view that we should go down that road for any substantial changes. As Deputy Kavanagh knows it is not possible to say, for all time in legislation, that one will not move an inch further; even if the regulations did not so provide, even if one did not have to revert to the Oireachtas for agreement, it would be open to any future Government, of whatever composition, to add to or substract from these powers. It is not feasible to tie anybody's hands to that extent. That is why I have gone the distance I have, indicating that it is my intention to use these regulations sparingly; of course I would have to get the support of the Oireachtas to implement them. There is no way I could bind any future Government in that way.

Mr. Gilmore

I share Deputy Kavanagh's concerns. May I ask the Minister about a specific road which is entering the planning stage at this time, that is, the South-Eastern motorway in Dublin which will complete the ring around Dublin, linking the Bray/Shankill by-pass with the Southern Cross route and the Western ring around Dublin. Plans to build the South-Eastern motorway have been brought forward — which is something I welcome because the ring around Dublin should be completed — but a number of specific problems will arise now. I am not clear where responsibility for them will lie.

For example, Dublin County Council are now completing the review of their development plan. At this stage it has entered the South-Eastern motorway almost in a straight line on that plan — a kind of notional line — because they are not in a position to state where the line of the motorway is going to be. They are undertaking engineering and environmental studies but have not yet stated the possible line of that motorway. Who will decide the line of that motorway? Will it be the National Roads Authority? For example issues have arisen — in the context of the review of the development plan — about the number of junctions there might be on the motorway. Who will decide the number of junctions to be constructed/provided on that road? Will that be a decision of the National Roads Authority or the local authority?

Third, environmental issues have also arisen because the motorway, desirable as it is, will be cutting through an areas of enormous beauty, the most attractive part of south County Dublin and will be located through some very environmentally sensitive areas. Who will decide how those issues are to be dealt with, the National Roads Authority or the local authority? Since this legislation will very probably be in place by the time these decisions have to be taken it would help my understanding of where we stand if that specific issue could be addressed.

Mr. Smith

As I envisage such a development, the responsibility will remain with the relevant local authority. They will undertake the normal day to day design and preparatory work that must be undertaken. They may well have to be assisted in a specialised way if dealing with very sensitive or difficult terrain, from the point of view of meeting all the various considerations. That work should proceed apace.

If I might comment on the overall position in Dublin, I am a little disappointed that we are not progressing more quickly so that all the improvements to the road network in Dublin can be effected expeditiously. I have in mind places like Balbriggan. There is the question of the Southern Cross route as well.

To answer Deputy Gilmore's question directly: this will continue to be a matter for the local authorities on a day to day basis after the enactment of the Bill.

Mr. Yates

I want to take the Minister up on that because I do not think that is the case. Section 19 (1) is specific on that point where it says the National Roads Authority—

may, in relation to national roads, do all or any of the following—

(a) prepare, or arrange for the preparation of, designs for construction or improvement works,

(b) prepare, or arrange for the preparation of, programmes of maintenance works.

This may not arise under section 17, but Deputy Kavanagh made this point. I support an executive authority coming in to inject a type of executive movement to this business of roads. Nonetheless, I believe that local democratically elected councillors should have a veto in relation to compulsory purchase orders so that, for example, there could not be a motorway constructed on Sandymount beach.

My understanding is that the layout of a scheme, the genesis of a road, the nuts and bolts of putting it together, what is done in the Department of the Environment, what is done by county engineers, will be done under the auspices of the National Roads Authority. But the sensitive issue of taking into account local residences would remain in the political domain.

Mr. Smith

When dealing with section 19 one must look at subsection (2) which reads:

The Authority shall, as far as possible, arrange that the functions referred to in paragraphs (a) to (d) of subsection (1) shall be performed on its behalf by the relevant road authority but, in any case where the Authority considers that it would be more convenient, more expeditious, more effective or more economical that the function concerned should be performed by it, it may decide accordingly.

Therefore, I envisage that the bulk of the work about which Deputy Gilmore spoke will continue to be undertaken by local authorities on behalf of the National Roads Authority. The National Roads Authority will retain power to acquire land for national roads, continue to prepare, design and carry out works, enter into roadwork contracts and so on.

To revert to the question of the more sensitive matters in the political domain, we would envisage the bulk of preparatory work being assigned to the relevant local authority by the National Roads Authority — environmental impact assessments and so on would go ahead as at present.

Mr. Yates

We will come to that later when dealing with land acquisition. There are separate amendments appertaining thereto.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Smith

I move amendment No. 62:

In page 18, subsection (3), line 12, to delete "of the Garda Síochána".

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Gilmore

I move amendment No. 63:

In page 18, between lines 16 and 17, to insert the following subsection:

"(4) The Minister shall make regulations providing that any function relating to roads, other than national roads, conferred on him under any enactment (including this Act), or on the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána under the Road Traffic Acts, 1961 to 1987, shall be performed by a roads authority, in lieu of being performed by him or by the Commissioner, be performed by the roads authority from a date specified in the regulations.".

Subsection (3) refers to the Minister making regulations to transfer what I understand to be road traffic functions from himself, a local authority or the Garda Commissioner to the National Roads Authority in respect of national roads. This refers to matters I raised earlier about the relationship between the roads authorities and the Garda Síochána in relation to road traffic matters. Perhaps this will be dealt with in the forthcoming road traffic Bill. Since I understood that subsection (3) was intended to streamline road traffic matters, allowing the National Roads Authority a greater role in road traffic matters than is currently the case, I felt a similar arrangement should be made for non-national roads, that similar powers should be given to roads authorities. In other words, some provision should be made for the transfer of road traffic functions from either the Minister or the Garda Commissioner to roads authorities in relation to non-national roads. Road traffic matters are an absolute bureaucratic bungle at present. Even to have a set of double yellow lines painted there are three or four steps that have to be gone through: one must request the Garda authorities to make a request; they having made the request it goes round and round. Roads authorities, particularly elected local authorities, if they feel there is a certain traffic management requirement in an area should be able to proceed and fulfil that requirement as quickly as possible. I should like them to have the same degree of flexibility with regard to the roads under their control as the National Roads Authority will have under section 17 (3).

Mr. Yates

In relation to what Deputy Gilmore said about double yellow lines, the same applies to amending speed limit areas. As a local authority member I find that — whenever a suburban area expands and one needs to extend the boundaries — there is a very complicated procedure to be followed between local authorities, local Gardaí and the Garda Commissioner. I contend that all this should be dealt with at local level. The Minister should make regulations to have these matters dealt with at local level.

Mr. Smith

It appears like manna from heaven. Deputies are speaking to the converted. The purpose of this amendment is to oblige the Minister to make regulations devolving his non-national road functions, and those of the Garda Commissioner, to local authorities. I am very sympathetic to the principles underlying the amendment. However, it might be too blunt an instrument to do in this way.

First, the provisions of this Bill contain a substantial measure of devolution to elected members of local authorities, for example, power to extinguish public rights-of-way and to abandon a public road. Heretofore, such powers could be exercised only with the consent of the Minister following and oral hearing or public inquiry into any objections. The whole process, including consideration of objections, will be in the hands of the local authority. The requirement to notify the Minister of temporary road closures is being abolished. I have tabled an amendment giving local authorities power to make by-laws controlling skips, which by-laws will not require ministerial confirmation. These are examples of my desire to remove unnecessary controls on local authorities.

As I made clear during my recent contribution to a Dáil adjournment debate, I will be proposing draft regulations under the Local Government Act, 1991 — for the approval of both Houses of the Oireachtas — to remove certain statutory controls applying to local authority operations. Later in the year I hope to be in a position to introduce a local government Bill which will confer broad new powers on locally-elected representatives — for example, to make by-laws dealing with matters of local concern and activities which were seen to cause nuisance or in need of regulation. More specifically, in the whole area of parking, traffic management and control, speed limits, I see scope for a greater local authority role. I will be making a start, in implementing this approach, in the road traffic Bill being drafted. Therefore, I shall be putting Deputies in such a happy mood that I do not know how I could be expected to do more.

Mr. Yates

"Yes Minister."

Mr. Kavanagh

The Minister will have us all jumping for joy knowing local authorities can abandon roads. Obviously, we welcome the fact that we can extend a speed limit on a road rather than wait one year for the Garda Traffic Bureau to tell us where the speed limit should be. That should be done.

Mr. Smith

They were done.

Mr. Kavanagh

They were not but they will be.

Mr. Smith

Is Deputy Kavanagh saying he does not want to do that?

Mr. Kavanagh

We will accept these but the Minister said that that outweighs what he is doing in this Bill.

Mr. Smith

I am copying those; they are samples. I will give the Deputy another 50 samples if the Deputy wants to remain here for the afternoon.

Mr. Boylan

While it is to be welcomed I can foresee many deputations applying to be received.

Mr. Gilmore

Making speeches about devolving functions to local authorities will not make it happen. All this amendment seeks is that the Minister do for local authorities what he proposes doing for the National Roads Authority. My amendment is the same as subsection (3) as it relates to the National Roads Authority. The only difference is that my amendment relates to local authorities and non-national roads. If the National Roads Authority are allowed the latitude proposed under subsection (3), I do not see why local authorities cannot be allowed the same functions in relation to non-national roads.

These are not momentous matters of State; we are dealing with routine traffic matters. For example, in order to get a speed limit extended or to have double yellow lines or yellow boxes put in place in Dublin one does not deal with the local Garda superintendent but with the division responsible for traffic matters in Harcourt Terrace. It can take six to 12 months to get a decision on a simple traffic control measure. Apparently the National Roads Authority will be able to readily make such decisions under subection (3), but individual roads authorities will not be allowed do so for non-national roads. What responsibility is being given to the National Roads Authority in subsection (3) that the Minister is apprehensive about giving to local authorities for non-national roads?

(Deputies Boylan, Kavanagh, Gilmore, Finucane and Yates dissented.)

Chairman

The names of Deputies dissenting will be recorded in the proceedings of the Committee.

Section 17, as amended, agreed to.

Special Committee on the Roads Bill, 1991 díospóireacht - Wednesday, 22 Jul 1992

SECTION 17.

Special Committee on the Roads Bill, 1991 díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Jul 1992