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Special Committee Value-Added Tax (Amendment) Bill, 1977 díospóireacht -
Thursday, 16 Nov 1978

SECTION 19.

I move amendment No. 41:

In page 20, lines 9 and 10, to delete " excluding services specified in paragraph (ii) of the Second Schedule ".

That is consequential on amendment No. 25, which makes explicit the provision of the right of deduction of input tax in relation to certain services supplied outside the State. The exclusion of these services from the list of exemptions which was combined with their inclusion under the Second Schedule for the purposes of zero rating is, therefore, no longer necessary and the relevant phrase is being deleted.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 42:

In page 20, line 15, to delete " in the State ".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 43:

In page 20, to delete line 44 and to substitute the following:

" deductible under section 12;

(xxv) catering services supplied—

(a) to patients of a hospital or nursing home in the hospital or nursing home, and

(b) to students of a school in the school.".

This amendment maintains in operation the present exemption for hospital and school meals, contained in paragraph (ix) of the First Schedule to the VAT Act.

Could the Minister let us know what is behind this?

Under the existing VAT legislation meals served in hospitals and schools had the benefit of this exemption. In the Bill as published, this exemption was not formally included. The intention is and has been to maintain this exemption for meals supplied in hospitals and schools. We are now putting in catering services supplied to patients of a hospital or nursing home in the hospital or nursing home, and to students of a school in the school. Commercial catering generally is not exempted.

Meals in schools and hospitals will be exempted.

Will welfare homes be included under nursing homes?

The same as hospitals.

And community centres?

Assuming they are nearer to the medical field than to hostels.

Community centres would be working under the Eastern Health Board.

Where there is a doubt the decision will go in favour of the institution if it is in some real sense in the medical field. There is no charge for meals on wheels and meals in community centres.

Normally there is a charge of 10p or 15p or something of that order for a dinner. To my knowledge they have never been charged VAT.

It is not a charge in the strict sense. It is a contribution.

Technically, under this exemption it would not qualify. The question is whether it would be charged at all in the first instance.

The difficulty arises only where a commercial caterer is brought in, such as in a hospital, for instance. There is no need to have formal exemption for meals in a hospital provided by the hospital's own resources because there is a general exemption in that regard. The commercial caterer would be a taxable person and would have to charge VAT if there were not a special provision for exemption for him. In the case of a community centre, if the meal is provided by the health board from their own resources, there is an exemption by reason of the standing of the health board; but if they brought in a commercial caterer they would be charged VAT and this exemption would not give relief in that case.

But if they do the job themselves, they would be chargeable to VAT in the first instance.

Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed: " That section 19, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

I note that the exempted activities in the First Schedule which is being substituted for the original First Schedule include under (ii):

school or university education, and vocational training or retraining (including the supply of goods and services incidental thereto), provided by educational establishments recognised by the State, and education, training or retraining of a similar kind provided by other persons;

The point that arises here is in relation to the scope of institution to be covered by the words " of a similar kind ". I doubt if anybody would have any difficulty in applying the full exemption to all educational establishments recognised by the State but there are large and perhaps growing numbers of other educational establishments which are neither recognised nor funded in any way by the State and over which the State has no control. The major example I am thinking of is what is called a grind school, something which attempts—often enough with indifferent success—to capitalise on students fears. These institutions hire teachers who are already supposed to be doing a full-time job of work and who are being paid a full salary by the State for that, to teach extra hours. The students are charged for this service. These institutions are operated totally on a profit-making basis. Their connection with the tax system is exiguous at the best of times. I regard them as a scandal to the education system and I should like to think that, in so far as they are a straight-forward profit-making activity, they would not be exempt.

The Sixth Directive advises us to give the exemption as set out here. The phrase " similar kind " really refers to the type of education given. If it is, broadly speaking, academic education that is being given, the type of institution the Deputy has in mind would benefit from the exemption. They cannot be denied it. But the type of school that would not qualify for the benefit would be, for example, a driving school or a dancing school. Where the type of education provided is similar to that provided in a university or vocational school, for instance, the exemption would have to be applied.

Regardless of whether they have any connection with the State system.

I would be inclined to disagree with Deputy Horgan on that because a number of those schools are doing an excellent job. I agree that, theoretically, they should not be necessary, but we live in practical times. These schools have helped quite a number of students to get into that hallowed and distinguished university arena with which the Deputy is so familiar. I would not be in favour of penalising them when they are providing this service.

What about secretarial schools?

They are exempt.

I have certain reservations about the imposition of 10 per cent VAT on the admission to and the promotion of agricultural shows.

That comes in under a later section.

I regret to note that there is a 10 per cent VAT on dancing schools. Dancing is part of movement, part of education. Until such time as our educational establishments are in a position to offer a good physical education in addition to an academic course, dancing schools have a very real role to play. Could they not be regarded as part of overall child development especially as physical education is so important, as was recognised a long time ago by the Greeks?

I would like to support Deputy C. Murphy. The problem seems to be how to differentiate between different schools of dancing. There is the school which, in my younger days, taught nothing but the foxtrot and the slow waltz and now there are various sophisticated schools of dancing and drama. The two are very often connected. I think they contribute to education.

We are governed by the directive and have to include dancing schools.

Is there any way account can be taken of the different categories of schools? Can we distinguish between the professional dancing school and the local school which is of benefit to the community?

Irish dancing is part of our culture. It seems extraordinary that we have to pay tax on promoting our culture, whatever the directive says.

If it is not a business it would not be liable to tax; but if it is a business it would be.

Comhaltas CeoltóiríÉireann run most of the Irish dancing schools around the country. There is one school in Cork which charges a fee—the Cork Ballet—and the lady who runs it is paid by her students. Is she charged tax under this Bill?

She will be in future.

I am more interested in the school which charges a fee of, say, 20p for an hour's teaching where only one or two minutes individual attention will be given to each pupil while the class will learn the new steps together. Surely that type of school is exempt because it is not really a business. It usually brings in pin-money for the person running it and can be regarded by some people as a baby-sitting service. To people who consider it more highly, it gives a service by filling a gap in orthodox educational establishments.

There are turnover limits, in other words, if the annual turnover falls below £3,000 they are exempt.

That clarifies that point.

The two-monthly registration limit has been raised from £300 to £500 and returns are made every two months. If they are less than that, they are exempt.

Does the directive give us any guidance on the status of a drama school? Would that be regarded as an academic form of education or have the commissioners any views on it?

The directive is not helpful on this but the commissioners' view would be that education in the drama school is neither academic nor vocational training and would have to be taxable. On the question of children being taken care of in certain circumstances, paragraph (vi) of this Schedule has an exemption. It says:

services for the protection or care of children and young persons, and the provision of goods closely related thereto, provided otherwise than for profit.

That takes care of certain institutions and groups.

A pre-school play group would probably be exempt because the turnover would not reach the maximum envisaged in the Bill?

Question put and agreed to.
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