Working Group of Committee Cathaoirligh díospóireacht -
Thursday, 22 Jun 2023

Engagement with An Taoiseach

An Cathaoirleach

I advise members that there are a couple of housekeeping matters that we will deal with in private session at the end of the meeting. I ask members to stay on for that. It would be appreciated.

Apologies have been received from Deputies Flanagan, Cahill, Naughten, Carey, Funchion, Creed, Cowen and Matthews, and Senators O'Loughlin and Cassells. I welcome the Leas-Chathaoirligh, Deputies Ó Cathasaigh, Costello and McAuliffe, and Senator Horkan, who are representing their respective committees in the absence of their Chairs.

I am pleased that Senator Flynn will join us later. Yesterday she was elected Cathaoirleach of the re-established Committee on Key Issues affecting the Traveller Community.

I am especially pleased to welcome An Taoiseach and thank him for his engagement with the Working Group of Committee Cathaoirligh. We are delighted he is with us today. He is accompanied by officials from the Department of the Taoiseach, Mr. John Callinan, Secretary General, and Mr. Padraig Ó Conaill, principal officer.

I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are switched off or on silent mode. That would be appreciated. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The purpose of today's meeting is in accordance with Standing Order 120. It is to discuss matters of public policy and particularly those raised through our respective committees. As the Taoiseach knows, committees undertake a huge and detailed amount of work which does not lend itself to consideration in plenary sessions. While our work is intensive, our collective remit is extensive and the approach taken enables the Parliament to engage with Departments, public bodies and the public in general in a meaningful and direct manner. At today's meeting, I look forward to a constructive engagement that will, I hope, be of mutual benefit to the Taoiseach and the committee Chairs.

I propose that we proceed directly to the substantive part of the meeting. I ask the Taoiseach to make his opening statement.

The Taoiseach

Go raibh maith agat, Cathaoirleach, as an gcuireadh a bheith anseo. Tá súil agam go mbeadh an cruinniú seo úsáideach duinn. Is deis atá ann cad atá ar siúl ag bhur choistí a chloisteáil agus chun ceisteanna atá agat a ardú liom. Is deis atá ann dom freisin chun tú a chur ar eolas faoi cad atá ar siúl ag an Rialtas agus an Roinn.

I thank the Cathaoirleach for the invitation to be here today. We all know how important parliamentary committees are. They play a unique and evolving role in the legislative process, scrutinising legislation in the kind of detail that cannot happen in the Chamber and engaging with members of the public, interest groups, outside bodies and officials.

I am sure the Cathaoirleach and Leas-Chathaoirligh have a long list of issues to raise with me so I will keep my contribution relatively short. However, I would first like to provide a brief update on the work of Government. Next week, this Government will have been three years in office. It has not been defined solely by the response to the pandemic and its aftermath, as we might have thought it would be three years ago. It has been dealing with a range of unforeseen issues, including the outbreak of war in Europe, an influx of refugees and asylum seekers and a protracted inflation and cost-of-living crisis.

After many years of progress with rising incomes in real terms, falling inequality and reductions in poverty and deprivation, poverty rates last year increased for the first time in a long time due to the inflation. Now that inflation is easing, our objective is to restore the power of people’s incomes and push poverty rates back down in the right direction. Our limitation is not the public finances because we have the money to respond but is the risk of fuelling inflation if we do too much too quickly. However, we can do a lot and intend to do so. When it comes to any household budget, there are three elements to it, namely, how much you are paid, how much you get to keep after tax and how far the money goes. Both inside and outside the budgetary process, we intend to make progress on all three fronts, putting money back into people’s pockets and ensuring it goes further. Last year was a set back in terms of living standards but I want real incomes and living standards to rise again over the course of the next year.

Many people argue that we must choose between saving and spending; increasing public spending and investment or decreasing taxes. The truth is that we can do all of these things if we have a growing economy. The real policy choice is the total quantum and the split within it.

How much do you do in total by means of financial interventions and what is the breakdown in terms of tax relief, increased spending on services, investment and debt reduction? In more simple terms, a bigger pie means bigger slices, and that is why economic growth is important.

I imagine we will not be able to spend much time today debating how we can strengthen our enterprise base. Unfortunately, that question does not get enough discussion in the Dáil or Seanad but it deserves our attention. We are now ranked the second most competitive economy in the world but we must never take for granted our economic success and assume that full employment, record levels of trade and investment and budget surpluses will persist no matter what economic policies we pursue. Wealth and jobs have to be generated and that requires the protection of an economic model that has served us well for many decades now. The greatest risk to our prosperity and wealth is a fundamental change of policy when it comes to the economy, tax, trade and Europe. It is one of the biggest risks we face and it is my responsibility to warn about it.

Our vision as a Government is to make Ireland the best country in Europe in which to be a child. With that in mind, I established a new child poverty and well-being unit in the Department of the Taoiseach, which is now up and running. It will co-ordinate Government action, provide strategic leadership, research and analysis from the centre and bring enhanced accountability to the child poverty and well-being agenda. I want child poverty and well-being to be a theme of budget 2024 and I will make sure it is.

Earlier this month, we published the well-being framework for 2023, which assesses our performance using 35 different indicators - economic, social and environmental. It allows us to compare ourselves with the past as well as with other countries. It is largely a positive story but, as always, there is plenty of room for improvement.

Climate change is the single greatest threat facing humanity today. We are the generation of politicians that has to turn the tide on climate change and biodiversity loss. With this in mind, climate considerations inform all decisions we take as a Government. We have the high-level goals, laws, targets and plans in place but now we have to translate that into more meaningful actions and implementation on the ground.

As we all know, Ireland is in the midst of a very deep housing crisis. We will do whatever it takes to solve it. We are making some progress. Roughly every week, 400 first-time buyers are buying their first home, which is the highest we have seen since the Celtic tiger period. In raw numbers, more people own their own home than ever before - 1.2 million - but the percentage has fallen. We are building more social housing than in any year since 1975. The proportion of families who benefit from social housing has gone up not down in the past ten years, both in raw numbers and percentage terms. It shows that the social housing building programme initiated by the Minister, Deputy Coveney, and continued by the former Minister, Eoghan Murphy, and the current Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, is now making a real difference. We are also providing grants to help people renovate old buildings and breathe new life into them, thus creating new homes in towns, villages and rural areas throughout the country. We know this progress is far from enough and we are doing all we can to speed up the implementation of Housing for All and ensure the initiatives we have committed to are implemented quickly and effectively.

One of my priorities as Taoiseach is to ensure balanced regional development and that all parts of the country benefit from our economic progress. We have made excellent progress in recent years. Many people want to live in rural Ireland, and remote and flexible working has opened up possibilities we had not dreamed of just a few years ago. In my first term as Taoiseach, I had the privilege to establish the Department of Rural and Community Development and the €1 billion rural fund. We can now see the impact of that on the ground. We also signed the contract for the national broadband plan. This new Government is backing this momentum with further investment, building vital infrastructure like new roads, railways, schools and healthcare facilities, and getting broadband into every home, farm and business in the country. I have tasked the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, with bringing about a step change when it comes to the implementation of Project Ireland 2040 and he is doing exactly that – removing layers of process and focusing on key bottlenecks.

I am proud of the way the Irish people have opened their arms to the people of Ukraine after Russia’s brutal invasion. Ireland has accommodated more than 86,000 people in State-sourced accommodation, between people who have fled here from the war in Ukraine and people seeking international protection. That is just in the past year or so. We have not always got things right on communication and I know it puts pressure on local services. It is a difficult task and I appreciate members' help on this as Cathaoirligh and also as local representatives.

This year marks the 25th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement. Having discussed developments in Northern Ireland with Prime Minister Sunak, our shared priority is the return of functioning institutions to provide the services the people of Northern Ireland deserve and make the economic reforms that Northern Ireland needs. As we know, the shared island initiative is driving all-island co-operation and engaging with all communities and traditions. The initiative was included in the programme for Government, was led by the Tánaiste when he was Taoiseach and continues today. Just this week, the Government allocated €56 million from the shared island fund, providing for a major new investment in Ulster University’s campus in Derry city.

Again, I thank the Cathaoirligh for the work they do leading our committees. I look forward to their comments and questions.

An Cathaoirleach

Before we move on to the next part of the meeting, I will give a quick recap of the procedures, although I know the Cathaoirligh will be aware of the procedures we outlined at the last working group meeting. We will take questions from each Cathaoirleach in groups of three. Cathaoirligh will be called upon in order of initial appointment under the D’Hondt model followed by non-D’Hondt committees. A time limit of two and a half minutes per Chair will apply. Chairs will put their questions in groups of three, with the Taoiseach given four minutes to respond to the questions of each group. As our time is limited, I encourage direct questions rather than having a long preamble, where possible. It will be a benefit for us all to get as much as possible out of the Taoiseach’s appearance at the committee as our time is limited and the clock will be ticking. In the event that a member is not present, I will move on to the next Chair in the group. For example, as Deputy McAuliffe is not here, I will call Deputy O’Dowd who is the first speaker in the subsequent group.

I call Deputy Brophy first, followed by Deputy Quinlivan and, in the event of Deputy McAuliffe's absence, we will move on to Deputy O’Dowd. If Deputy Brophy watches the clock, he will see the time ticking.

Deputy Colm Brophy

I will watch it. It is always wonderful to have an opportunity to tell Chairpersons, who spend most of their time telling everybody else to try to keep a time limit, to do likewise.

I thank the Taoiseach for his engagement. I was recently appointed Chair of the Joint Committee on European Affairs. Recently, our work has been on two areas which no one will find surprising. The first and primary area in which we have been engaged is enlargement. We have carried out a series of engagements. Delegations appeared at the committee and we also had the opportunity to meet others on visits to the home states of applicant countries. There is a good reaction to Ireland in this process because this country is perceived as being very supportive of the enlargement process. That is particularly the case in the areas on which we have been working recently, namely, the western Balkans, the eastern partnership trio and, obviously, Ukraine, on which we have had a number of engagements. Having engaged in the Oireachtas and with applicant states' Parliaments, I am interested in hearing the Taoiseach outline the Government’s view on enlargement, with a particular emphasis what we are doing in regard to Ukraine’s situation.

The other area, which is topical and falls within the area we are discussing, is security and defence. Even this week, the committee had some speakers before us to discuss the issue. We are focusing on the European Union side of the issue and co-operation on security and defence issues within Europe.

I gather this will come up for discussion at next week's European Council meeting. If it is coming up for discussion, I am interested to know about what we are doing on this forum and our interest in the area of enhanced international security policy in the European context.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I thank the Taoiseach for coming before the committee. I have a number of questions and an observation. I chair the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment. We had a presentation on artificial intelligence, AI, yesterday. It frightened a lot of people who listened to it. We all agreed that it should not be the role of one committee to look after it. I suggest we look at setting up a special committee on the issue of AI. It is a cross-departmental issue that will affect all our lives. The experts tell us that one in three jobs will be affected by AI. Yesterday experts from Trinity College, the Law Society and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions came before the committee. They all expressed concerns. There are great opportunities with AI but there are great concerns about us not getting it right.

Last December, the committee published a report on the Unified Patent Court. What are the plans for this? I do not expect the Taoiseach to give me a date. Is it the Government's intention to hold a referendum on the Unified Patent Court? I spoke to IBEC representatives this morning who said businesses are struggling. Some of them are being sued regarding patents. A total of 17 member states have joined the Unified Patent Court, which came into jurisdiction on 1 June. Ireland has not joined as of yet. The committee has recommended that we have a referendum. Is there a rough outline on when we might have that referendum?

European works councils have been discussed extensively by the committee in recent years. I understand they were also discussed at the previous committee. Are there plans to deal with this issue and the other issues whereby workers coming to Ireland cannot access the services of the Workplace Relations Commission or the Labour Court? There are also issues with European works councils. We have heard submissions from employers' and workers' organisations and they all agree that we need to do something on this specifically as soon as possible.

I also want to raise the issue of unemployment blackspots. We have never been in a better place. The number of jobs created in recent years has been phenomenal. It has had a real effect in communities throughout the State. However, we are leaving some people behind, particularly those with disabilities, people from the Traveller community and women who left the workforce to raise children who have skills and can come back in. We can do more to get them into the workforce. There are also generational issues. According to the most recent CSO statistics, my home city of Limerick has seven out of ten of the unemployment blackspots. Will the Taoiseach look specifically at a specific task force-type structure for Limerick to examine these unemployment blackspots?

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

The Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement is special in that as well as having Members of the Dáil and Seanad, all 18 MPs elected in the North to Westminster are entitled to come to speak at our meetings. The majority of these, a total of 12, do so regularly. We have meetings every week. We welcome very much the improvement in the relationship between the United Kingdom Government and our Government. Our role as a committee is to encourage and ensure there is increasing contact between politicians and officials on all sides. What further action can Government take? I welcome, in particular, the support we have from Europe and the United States to improve relationships, North and South, and to ensure the assembly gets up and running as soon as possible.

We were in Westminster last week. There are deep concerns in the committee about the impact of the legacy and reconciliation Bill. It is unacceptable to all members of the committee, all political parties in Northern Ireland, and all of the victims' bodies and groups and the individuals we have met. It is an affront to those families who have suffered for many years, some for decades, without answers and getting the truth. What status does the introduction of the UK electronic travel authorisation have? What is most important is that we have made significant progress and we want to do more. If we do not ensure we make every possible representation on changing or withdrawing the legacy and reconciliation Bill, I believe we will let down everybody on the island.

The Taoiseach

EU enlargement is something of which we are very supportive as a Government. I am very proud of the fact that the most recent big enlargement into central Europe happened under the Irish Presidency. It was a Fianna Fáil Government at the time led by Bertie Ahern. The next significant enlargement should be into the western Balkans. We support the candidatures of Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia. Many countries in the western Balkans have been waiting for a very long time. As long as they meet the criteria, I believe we should admit them. The risk in letting them wait too long is that people lose faith in the European path and other actors, including malign state actors, develop a presence in these countries. Parliament to parliament contacts are very important and I encourage them to continue. Contact is also important at civil society level.

I am not sure whether security and defence are on the agenda for the European Council next week. We do not have all of the papers yet. The approach we have taken as a Government is that we signed up to PESCO. We are a founder member of PESCO. We opt into programmes on a case-by-case basis and it is the intention that we will continue in this way.

Artificial intelligence is a fascinating topic. It will change our world in ways we cannot even imagine. It will change our world as much as the Internet did. There will be great new applications and great opportunities arising from it but also great risks and changes for the worse. It is important that we get it right. A dedicated committee to tease out some of these issues is a very good idea. The difficulty we have had of late with committees is being able to staff and populate them because there are so many at present. It is a good idea but we would want to make sure we do not spread Deputies and Senators too thinly among too many committees.

With regard to the Unified Patent Court, the working plan, although it has not formally been decided yet by the Government, is to have the referendum concurrent with the local and European elections in June next year. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is working on this at present.

I will ask the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, to come back directly to Deputy Quinlivan on the European works councils because I am not up to date on them. I am aware of the issue from my time at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

Deputy Quinlivan was correct about people who are distant from the labour market. We have close to full employment. We also have labour shortages. We have groups of people who for many complicated reasons find it difficult to get a foothold in the labour market. We need to target them for the additional support they need because we need them.

With regard to the Good Friday Agreement, the priority at is of course to get the assembly and the executive up and running. There are two institutions under the Good Friday Agreement that are still functioning. These are the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference, which met in London last week, and the British-Irish Council, which met in Jersey the week before. In the absence of Northern Ireland, the Good Friday Agreement is not what it is supposed to be. It is not whole. We are working with the UK Government and with the five parties with a view to getting institutions up and running again later in the year.

Something that is absent, and I do regret it, is a common approach and a common strategy agreed by the British and Irish Governments. Northern Ireland works best, and the Good Friday Agreement works best, when the British and Irish Governments are hand in hand. While relations have improved considerably and we are getting a lot of business done, it is still not the case that we are acting as equal co-guarantors of the agreement. This is regrettable but we are not giving up on it. Certainly in our meetings with the British Government we say every time that we want to restore the type of partnership that existed between the two governments prior to Brexit, which was successful in making the agreement work.

The Government is opposed to the legacy Bill and has not ruled out an interstate action if it becomes law.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Taoiseach. The next group will include Senator Ward, and Deputies McGuinness and Leddin.

Senator Barry Ward

The Taoiseach is very welcome. I am Vice Chair of the Joint Committee on Justice. That committee's major focus has been on crime and policing. Cybercrime is one of the matters we looked at, especially spyware scams and things of that nature, which have become increasingly prevalent. We are also looking at technological solutions to improve the operation of the Courts Service and the functions of An Garda Síochána. As part of that, we have arranged a special meeting to deal with the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) Bill 2022 on 5 July in the hope of moving it on.

Policing resources are obviously a major issue also. I am conscious, from the last budget, that investment in An Garda Síochána has increased significantly, which is right and proper. However, we need to look not just at how that translates into numbers of gardaí but also where they are deployed. Many Members indicate that they feel there is a dearth of gardaí in particular areas of the country, especially certain urban areas, and that this possibly gives rise to antisocial behaviour, for example, criminal activity on public transport. These are all issues that we have looked at.

The other matter that has come to the fore, and the Taoiseach mentioned it, relates to international protection. I acknowledge what he said regarding the 86,000-odd people we have accommodated in the past year. I welcome that but, as this matter falls under the justice committee, we need to work on processing their applications as quickly as possible.

Ours is a very legislation-heavy committee and always has been. For example, this week, we engaged in pre-legislative scrutiny of the general scheme of the defamation amendment Bill. The matter of gambling is coming up on 11 July and there will be another session on the general scheme to which I refer. In the context of Standing Order 174A, there is a feeling that the eight-week limit for pre-legislative scrutiny is very tight for a committee that has to deal with a lot of legislation. Is there any scope to expand or extend that so there is greater room for a committee such as justice to do the work it has to do? The Taoiseach mentioned committee resources. It is not just about the members of the committee; it is also about staff. That is obviously a very important provision as well. Any injection of resources for committees would be very welcome.

An Cathaoirleach

I do not expect the Taoiseach to answer on committee resourcing because we already had a meeting on that issue a number of weeks ago. It is matter for the Oireachtas. I do not expect him to have a briefing on that.

Deputy John McGuinness

The topic of committee resourcing may be a matter for the Oireachtas but it brings into focus the rights of Members of the Houses and the activities of committees. It is time the balance was tilted in favour of Members because, in the current Dáil, it seems they are a secondary consideration. If we are to do our parliamentary duties in the way we should, then we need the resources, we need the powers of committees to be looked at, and we need to be supported in that task.

On the politically exposed persons legislation and what is coming from Europe, is it not time to reform that legislation and do something to attract people into politics? I do not want to push aside the need for transparency and accountability. However, I want a level playing field for everyone in the Houses, and in our local councils, in order that they clearly understand the legislation and what is required of them. I do not like the fact that all this activity, legislation and direction from Europe comes under the money laundering and criminal activity legislation. It is time that we focus on Members, and public representatives in general, and how they are exposed and how they need to account for themselves, thereby making it a little more attractive for people to come into politics.

Likewise, as regards the hate speech legislation, and the definitions therein and so on, does the Taoiseach agree that perhaps the debate in the Seanad should be stalled until maybe beyond Christmas in order that we can get a clear view of what is going on and an understanding of the concerns people who have written to us have? We have had quite an avalanche of letters and correspondence on this matter and it is time to look back and reflect.

In the context of the spending of money by various Departments and their accountability, because of the level of money now being spent by the State, it is time for reform of the Committee of Public Accounts, the Committee on Budgetary Oversight and the Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach, to give time and scope to be able to examine the waste within the State and the waste created by the State. A lot of the money that is wasted, if it were saved, could be directed to some greater cause within the economy. Inflation is difficult, poverty is there, and there is an issue around vulture funds and the appearance of those involved in them at committees. Something needs to be done about that in particular.

Deputy Brian Leddin

I welcome the Taoiseach. He is very welcome to this annual engagement. I represent the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Environment and Climate Action. I believe, in no small part due to the work of the committee and, certainly, the wider Oireachtas, both the Government and the Opposition, that our systems are fundamentally changing in the right direction. That is very positive. I commend the Taoiseach on all his efforts. It is important to stress this involves both the Government and the Opposition. Notwithstanding the challenges, rows and differences we have on policy, we are finally starting to go in the right direction. Leadership is shown across the House on that.

One deficit, which speaks to the resources point colleagues mentioned, is that climate is quite a technical subject. We are talking about numbers and policies that equate to numbers of kilotons or megatons of carbon. It is fair to say, as laypeople and politicians, that many of us are not equipped to deal with the complexity of the task at hand. How can we say which policies equate to how much in carbon reductions? There is an important piece about extra resources in that regard, not for committees and not strictly for our committee but for the whole of the Oireachtas. I am thinking of the model of the Parliamentary Budget Office that is there already. I asked the Taoiseach's predecessor, the Tánaiste, Deputy Micheál Martin, about this last year. He gave tacit support to the idea that there would be an attachment to the Parliamentary Budget Office, or a unit, that would help Members in that very technical subject. I acknowledge that it is not a role directly for the Taoiseach but he will have thoughts on the matter and, perhaps, some influence.

I thank the Taoiseach for referring the report of the Citizens' Assembly on Biodiversity Loss to the Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action. We are all very enthusiastic about getting stuck into that and reporting on it by Christmas.

The Taoiseach

I pay tribute to and recognise the justice committee for the huge amount of legislation it has to deal with. I get a sense of it from the number of Government memos that come from different Departments. The number that come from that Department is enormous. It is a very legislation-heavy Department and that then, of course, lands at the committee. I do not know what the rules are regarding the eight-week deadline or whether there is a mechanism for seeking an extension. I would not like it to be an across-the-board extension but perhaps there should be some mechanism for the committee to request an extension, where it is appropriate or where the workload is just too heavy.

Senator Ward and Deputy Leddin talked about resources for Oireachtas committees. It is correct to say it is a matter for the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission. It is not just a matter for that commission, however, because it gets its money from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, which is at the centre of government. I have influence over the Minister in that Department, having appointed him, so if there are proposals from the commission for more technical expertise, or additional committee staff and resources, I would like to see them. It is certainly something that I am very open to. We have not been found wanting. When I was a backbencher and not in government, the idea of an office of a parliamentary legal adviser was being conceived. The idea of pre-legislative scrutiny was being promoted by people like me. A parliamentary budget office and a budget oversight committee were all ideas.

We made them happen. I am very open to additional resources and additional ideas that would come from the commission. I want to be across any proposals the commission may have in that regard.

When it comes to where gardaí are deployed, as members are aware, it is a matter for the Garda Commissioner, and should be for lots of very good reasons. We have an open conversation with the Garda Commissioner on that, because as Garda numbers increase we need to make sure they go to the areas that need them most. It is certainly an issue in my constituency in west Dublin. Our population has grown a lot and Garda numbers have not. I know that is replicated in some other parts of the country too.

On the issues raised by Deputy McGuinness about attracting people into politics, that is something we should have a conversation about because we do need to recruit good people into politics. I know issues arise all the time, ranging from how it impacts on people's careers, and whether they can get leave. We need to do some work on that, but I am not sure how best to do it.

The legislation around politically exposed people is there for good reasons. It is transparency legislation and anti-corruption legislation. It is often very difficult where it impacts on family and friends. Some of my family and friends say that when they set up a bank account, they get asked a lot of questions about how they know me. It is all a bit odd because while I made a decision to get involved in politics, they did not. I do not have any complaints about how it impacts on us, but the way it impacts on our families, friends and associates is a bit unfair. It is almost like suspicion by association. I sympathise with Deputy McGuinness’s remarks in that regard.

On the hate speech legislation, to be honest, from my point of view it is a long time coming. I do not think it is being rushed at all. This legislation has been in development and has been discussed and debated. It has been put out to consultation for years. I know the Seanad voted to continue with the Bill and not to delay it. I do not think that putting it off for three months, six months or to Christmas actually means that issues that need to be teased out will be teased out any quicker. I think it would be better to tease them out now. I often find that when you move the deadline for something, it does not necessarily result in greater consideration. If you move the deadline by six months, nothing happens for four months, and it is only when you are up against the deadline again that people resume their work. I think the issue should be teased out, ideally this side of the summer recess.

Deputy Seán Crowe

I apologise to the Taoiseach as I was in the Chair in the House this morning. I am Chair of the health committee. I welcome the recent announcement of the €50 million investment in the North via the Government's shared island project and the €45 million investment in the Derry campus of Ulster University, which will have a positive impact on the local economy as well as a major impact on cross-Border education in the region. That is in addition to the Government's very welcome announcement of funding for 250 nurse training places in the North. We would all agree that more healthcare graduates across the island is a very positive move. The cross-Border co-operation in services at Altnagelvin Area Hospital demonstrates the benefits when we all work together. Is the Government open to even more cross-Border projects and greater co-operation between the two health services on the island? Each health service faces its own unique challenges. More co-operation could result in greater improvements and delivery for patients if the health services were to work more closely together. I do not think it is a contentious issue. It is certainly not contentious among political parties. There is probably a small bigoted minority that would be opposed to this co-operation but it would be supported by the vast majority on the island of Ireland. It is something that we need to develop. It is certainly something that we as a health committee would like to explore further but that is difficult given the intensity and pressure of the issues that constantly come before us. Co-operating with each other on this small island is something we should all tease out collectively.

Deputy Brian Stanley

I welcome the opportunity to raise these issues with the Taoiseach. As the Cathaoirleach of the Committee of Public Accounts, one of the issues that we have been trying to scrutinise and monitor is the national children's hospital and the progress of the construction work. There is no doubt that it is needed. There is no dispute about that. It is a badly needed project. Significant issues have arisen and we have tracked them carefully over the last three years. It has not been an easy one to follow because of the dearth of information coming to the Committee of Public Accounts. A report was commissioned by the Department but we never got sight of it. We were told we would get sight of it but we did not even get to see it in committee. What we do know at this stage is that the design team fees are ratcheting up. They are significant. We have figures up to 2020 and we have estimates of figures since then. We do not have a completion date, as that keeps moving. We do not have final costings. I do not expect the Taoiseach to have them because of construction inflation, but there should be a range at this point. We are in a large project but there is no range or ballpark figure of what is involved. There is no compliant programme of works from the contractor, BAM. The Minister for Health referred to this in recent days as a breach of contract. There are more than 2,000 claims from the company for extra cash. I visited the site and I understand that there will be claims because there will be modifications as this large complicated project proceeds. It is a 350-bed hospital; we are not building half of New York or anything like that. BAM was served with a stop notice in regard to the latest issue concerning theatres. It appears that has since been countermanded. The consultants that were commissioned by Children's Health Ireland, which is the body that will be charged with running this hospital, stated that the hospital would fail the validation and that it would not be fit to bring into use unless this issue with the theatres is resolved. The question is what happens in that case. Correspondence the committee received this morning, which has only just reached me, is that BAM has been instructed to review the impact of moving the grilles in the ventilation units in the 11 theatres. To date, BAM has not offered any of the operating theatres as being complete for inspection and commissioning by the design team. It is stated that the cost implications will be determined as part of this process and will be proportionate to the scale of the issues. That is fair enough. That is a general statement. When taken together, we are looking at a project that has stumbled and where there have been huge difficulties and disputes. I have only just touched on some of them. Hundreds of issues have arisen. Could the Taoiseach respond from the point of view of the Government on what we can do to get a handle on this?

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I am representing the Joint Committee on Social Protection, Community and Rural Development and the Islands. The Cathaoirleach, Deputy Naughten, is not available today and I am delighted to appear on his behalf and on behalf of the committee.

I will start first by referencing the long-awaited policy on the islands that was released recently. It is a substantial piece of work that was eagerly awaited. If we are serious about maintaining a viable population on our offshore islands, substantial supports need to be put in place so that people can live their lives in a way that preserves the unique tradition and unique heritage that we have on our offshore islands.

I want to turn to the committee's core work, which is poverty. We have set out ambitious targets in the roadmap for social integration to tackle poverty. On our committee we strongly feel that you tackle poverty by going after it where you find it. That is predominantly among children, in particular those of lone parents. I very much welcome that the Taoiseach mentions in his opening statement that he wishes to make child poverty and well-being a core theme of the budget.

He has committed to setting up a child poverty and well-being programme office within his Department. My committee made a number of recommendations in this area in our pre-budget submission: increasing the qualified child payment for under-12s, raising qualified child increases, QCIs, for under-12s; adequately providing social welfare support for those children most at risk of poverty; considering the extension of the jobseeker's transitional payment, particularly for lone parents; and reducing the jobseeker's replacement rate, particularly among lone parents, by increasing in-work measures, for example, childcare subsidies and housing assistance payments. We know it is not all about direct transfers within the social welfare system. The committee called for the long-standing Green Party policy of school meals to be provided to every child in the State. We also called for the Government to consider making the universal child benefit payment, which is made to other children within the State, available to people in direct provision, where we know there is a great deal of poverty.

An Cathaoirleach

The Taoiseach might now respond to Deputies Stanley, Crowe and Ó Cathasaigh.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Crowe asked about cross-Border projects, particularly in the context of health. The short answer to his question is "Yes". We are very interested in exploring new cross-Border projects that we could fund through the shared island fund. Some €1 billion has been earmarked for the shared island fund across the decade. So far, €250 million of that has been allocated and most of that has not yet been drawn down. Three quarters of the fund is yet to be allocated. We are interested in new projects and new ideas that we could fund.

We would love to be in a position to be co-funding them with the Northern Ireland Executive, if it was up and running, and the UK Government. I want to assure people that the announcements we are making, like the one we made the other day in respect of Ulster University, are ones we would love to be making alongside a deputy First Minister and a First Minister from the two communities. That would be much better than just announcing them as the Irish Government. Hopefully, we will get to that point in the next few months. Lots of interesting ideas and projects are under way, ranging from the Narrow Water bridge and the A5 to the Ulster Canal. We are working up our programme at the moment around educational disadvantage and how we might alleviate it in various parts of Northern Ireland. There are lots of exciting things that we are very keen to make happen.

From the Committee of Public Accounts's point of view, Deputy Stanley raised the issue of the national children's hospital. One thing I would say is that we should never lose sight of the objective, which is to build one of the best children's hospitals in the world. It will be one of the best children's hospitals in the world and, all things going to plan, will be handed over to the State next year and commissioned after that. A bit like a lot of major projects, whether it is the Dublin Port tunnel, terminal 2 in Dublin Airport, the Luas or Páirc Uí Chaoimh, there is a lot of angst and a lot of difficulty in getting them built, but once they are built and people see them and enter those places, nobody is sorry that they were built. I think we will get to that point with the children's hospital in the next year or so, but there have been problems from day 1 between the development board and the contractor. That has bedevilled the project, in my view.

Regarding the theatres, what I am told is that there may be an issue with 11 of the 22 theatres. It is not yet clear that any remedial work has to be done, but if it does have to be done, it can be done in parallel with other work and it should not delay the project or the opening of the hospital. I am going to dig deeper into that. It would not be the first time I have been told something in the health space that did not turn out to be the case. I have my team looking into that a little bit more to find out exactly what the situation is, but that is the reassurance we are getting at the moment.

I just want to join Deputy Ó Cathasaigh in welcoming the new policy on the islands. It was actually kicked off quite some time ago by Senator Kyne when he was a Minister of State. It is great that that is done now. The important thing now is to implement it.

On poverty, I have not had a chance to see the committee's submission, but if the Deputy could make sure I got it, that would be great. I would agree with the Deputy that, if we are serious about reducing child poverty – and we are – we have to deal with it where it is. It is particularly high among one-parent families and low-income families. There is lots we can do, for example, a move towards the living wage, which we are doing. The welfare package in the budget should reflect the objective of reducing child poverty. Reducing childcare costs is part of that, although we need to double down on increasing capacity. People being able to get a childcare place has become as big an issue as the cost of childcare. There is also the question of getting people into education and training as well as into activation measures. What the unit in my Department is doing is looking at the whole menu of actions that we could take and trying to find out which ones are the most effective and what they would cost. As well as that, it is having a look at all the pilots that have been done down the years – we are all familiar with some really good pilot programmes that have never been mainstreamed – and trying to identify a few of those that were very successful so as to make them mainstream rather than doing more pilots, if that makes any sense.

An Cathaoirleach

The next grouping will be Deputies Ó Snodaigh and Browne and Senator Flynn.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Casfaidh mé ar an mBéarla i gceann tamall beag mar ní fheicim go bhfuil córas aistriúcháin ar fáil anseo.

The Official Languages (Amendment) Act was passed in 2021 and set major challenges for society, but particularly for the public sector. Thus far, I have not seen an urgency from the State or from the various Ministers who need to take quicker action to ensure the State delivers on the commitments in the Act, for example, 20% of all recruits to the public sector being fluent Irish speakers. One way of doing that is dealing with those who are in the public sector already, but the main way is through the education system. As yet, though, there is no urgency from the Department of Education to ensure that there are sufficient places for children to attend Gaelscoileanna and that there is capacity within the secondary school system for them to continue their education through their language of choice. Every year, thousands of young children whose primary level education was through Irish cannot get places in Gaelcholáistí. If this issue were addressed, we would have a cohort of people we may be able to rely on to become teachers or civil servants who are fluent in Irish, thereby addressing the shortfall in the public service's delivery of services through Irish.

There is a range of other issues, but one is the question of how we deal with the challenge of having the Irish language used outside the education system. Some of that is starting to happen because of the Official Languages (Amendment) Act. For example, we are hearing more Irish in advertising, but there needs to be a greater concentration on ensuring that families have the wherewithal to speak Irish outside the education system.

I will make my final point, as this is only a short meeting. The Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage has continuously promised us planning guidelines for Gaeltacht areas. They have been delayed time and again. These guidelines would allow families to build homes and live in Gaeltacht areas – young couples who are trying to rear their kids in Irish, people who are trying to modernise their homes and others who are trying to build new homes. This is one of the vital measures required to ensure that Gaeltacht areas survive and thrive. We are asking that the guidelines be published as quickly as possible.

Deputy Martin Browne

I welcome the Taoiseach. Before I start, I congratulate Senator Flynn on becoming Chair of her committee.

The issue of more committees has been raised. I agree that there is a need for some, but it will put more pressure on Members and the committee secretariat. I can see this in the Joint Committee on Public Petitions and the Ombudsmen. It is not possible for the secretariat to take on more, given the amount of work it already does for us.

One of the main issues my committee is encountering is that of areas that fall under two or three Departments. For example, thatched cottages are covered by the Departments of Finance and Housing, Local Government and Heritage.

It is not just the thatched cottages but all the sporting events cancelled during the year. It is across several Departments and that seems to be causing some of the problems. Every one of us realises the importance of the likes of thatched cottages to our heritage. If something is not done quickly, the only place we will see them is on postcards.

One of the problems we are coming across is getting answers from different Departments and the amount of time it takes them to come back to us. People need to realise when someone goes to the trouble of sending a petition to us, it is probably a last-chance saloon for them. They have gone down all avenues locally, including councils, health boards and so on. Most of the Departments are fairly good but if we can get back responses faster from them, it builds confidence with the public to send their petitions or concerns up to the committee, whether individual or community. That will build up confidence and more and more people will start using our committee. In most cases, it is the last chance they have to get their concerns raised at a national or any level. Could Departments come back faster? Is there anything that can be done?

Senator Eileen Flynn

I am privileged to be here and delighted to be the Chairperson of the now standing Joint Committee on Key Issues affecting the Traveller Community (2023). That is a great legacy to leave behind. If I was never to be elected again, to have this as a standing committee is something else for the Traveller community. Most importantly, there are 84 recommendations from the previous committee. I seek a commitment from the Government to take those recommendations seriously and ask that the committee that has been set up will be supported by the Government in at least 90% of our work. I am keeping it simple. Will the Taoiseach reassure us of his commitment to supporting the committee in the coming years?

An Cathaoirleach

Will the Taoiseach reply to Deputies Ó Snodaigh and Browne and Senator Flynn?

The Taoiseach

I will take on board what Deputy Ó Snodaigh said on the Official Languages Act and the lack of urgency around some of its implementation. I am a big fan of the Gaelscoil and Gaelcholáiste movement and am glad we now have a Gaelcholáiste in my constituency and two Gaelscoileanna, one of which we are expanding. We should set the objective of saying that anybody who wants a place in a Gaelscoil or Gaelcholáiste should get one. I am not sure how far we are away from that. The Deputy might let me know later what the gap is. If Irish is our first official language, the least we should be able to do is say to children who want to be educated therein that they can be.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

There are six primary schools in Dublin 2, 4, 6 and 8 who have no place to go.

The Taoiseach

And no Gaelcholáiste. I am aware of that and we need to change that. Finding a site might be tricky.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

There is no problem finding sites. I will give you a list.

The Taoiseach

I totally agree with the principle and we should do it. I do not know where we are with the planning guidelines for Gaeltacht areas. I will come back to the Deputy by correspondence on that.

Deputy Martin Browne mentioned thatched cottages. I am a big fan of thatched cottages. We used to have a thatched shop in Clonsilla in my constituency, which unfortunately is gone. I spent one of the most pleasant evenings I have had in recent weeks in a thatched pub in County Tipperary with which I am sure the Deputy is familiar. It belongs to one of our councillors. It was a great spot.

On the delay in Departments coming back to Deputy Browne's committee, I am not sure of the procedure if there is a delay. Perhaps we should put a procedure in place. Let us say if a Department does not come back within three months, it gets escalated to the Ceann Comhairle, who then writes to the Minister. We need to come up with a mechanism if there is not one. A reasoned response within three months would be reasonable but we need a mechanism to make sure it gets escalated if that does not happen, perhaps by informing the Ceann Comhairle, who would then inform the Minister who would knock on the Secretary General’s door and ask why it has not been replied to yet.

I congratulate Senator Flynn on her election as Chairperson. On the 84 recommendations, we have a Cabinet committee on social policy that meets every couple of weeks. We have not looked at that report in quite some time so I will make sure it is on the agenda for the next meeting. That requires every Department to give an update on each of the 84 recommendations. Sometimes that spurs things on because things that were sitting on somebody’s desk suddenly get dealt with so they are marked with green or amber rather than red. We will do that at the next one or the one after.

Deputy Michael Moynihan

I welcome the opportunity on behalf of the Joint Committee on Disability Matters to raise a number of issues. We issued a report recently on the crisis in the disability services. We meet in public session every Thursday morning and have people with lived experience, their families and communities before us. They give us chilling and difficult evidence on people with disabilities and the difficulties they face daily. As we go into the budgetary process, the challenges relate to a funding mechanism and multi-annual funding to build capacity within the disabilities services.

As our population grows, more and more people with disabilities are showing. When young people get the assessment of need, there are no therapies available in the public sector and families are going privately. I honestly believe the State will be held accountable in years to come for what it is not providing now. We need to look at that and at respite care, residential care and building capacity within the HSE and service providers, some of which are section 39 organisations. That brings me on to pay parity within section 39 organisations and the retention and recruitment of staff. People in those organisations see better terms and conditions in the section 38 organisations and the HSE and are moving from those, so there are challenges there.

On secondary benefits, people with disability may be able to find employment, even for a few hours a week, but then face a challenge regarding their medical card. For a person with a disability, the medical card is golden and provides for their additional medical needs. That should be looked at.

On carer's allowance, sometimes a person takes time off or stays within the home to provide care for a partner, son, daughter, sibling or parent and, because of the means test, does not get that allowance. There should be something looked at. They are providing a massive service for the State. Could we look at care-assessed rather than means-assessed? If we do a cost-benefit analysis in terms of the State, there would be a positive outlook for it.

There is a unit in the Taoiseach’s Department on children but there needs to be a cross-departmental approach to looking at daily challenges faced by people with disabilities, their families and communities because it is at crisis point. We need to expand the services and include as many people as possible in recruitment and retention.

Senator Gerry Horkan

I thank the Taoiseach. I was in my office watching his opening statement and the other contributions, so have been following the meeting. The Joint Committee on Transport and Communications went out yesterday to the Go-Ahead depot in Ballymount. They told us of the difficulties they have in getting drivers into the system in terms of applying for a learner permit and getting their theory and driver test.

Quite unbelievably, there is a five-week delay between the time when they pass their driving test and when they get their certificate of professional competency, which is just a bureaucratic piece of plastic they need to have before they can get in the cab of the bus. There seem to be a lot of backlogs, possibly post Covid, all over the system, whether it is with national car tests, NCTs, driver testing and various other processes in driving.

There are also delays in planning processes. Representatives of Dublin Airport appeared before the committee the week before last. One of their key asks of us was about planning, getting stuff through the system faster, getting decisions made and being able to get on with it. Is there a whole-of-government approach to looking at where the backlogs are and how we are going to clear them? It is very frustrating for the ordinary person to discover that things that should not take a lot of time are taking weeks and months. There is a lot of that all over the system.

I want to raise a point about housing. While a lot of housing is being built, which is great, not all supply is as good all other supply. We tend to see a lot of build-to-rent housing now. Many younger people, and even people who are not so young, are trying to get units. Particularly in Dublin Rathdown, where I live, a lot of housing is being built to rent. People see construction happening and they are okay with it being built, even though some of it is a lot bigger than what some of them would be used to but the real challenge is whether there is housing to buy. A rule was introduced that funds cannot buy up an entire housing estate but they are able to buy whole apartment blocks and whole apartment schemes. We may be storing up problems in the longer term with that. Whatever about people being able to pay rent when they are in the workforce, as they head towards pension age there is a challenge for those people to be able to be spending significant amounts of money on rent. In the past, they would have been paying down their mortgage or possibly would have had no mortgage by the time they got to retirement and would have been able to live relatively comfortably on their pension.

I echo the comments of Deputy McGuinness in terms of politically exposed persons and all of the rules that are being brought in that are probably a deterrent. They are necessary in some ways but the processes around a lot of them - including the requirement to declare all of your bank balances every three months and so on - are very onerous, as is some of the legislation, and I am not sure exactly what the benefit of it is.

Senator Martin Conway

As the Taoiseach is aware, I was recently elected to the position of Cathaoirleach of the Seanad Select Committee on Scrutiny of Draft EU-related Statutory Instruments. We are having our first public meeting with the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke, on Tuesday week in early July. There are a lot of technical issues for the committee to consider in putting together the protocols with the Department of Foreign Affairs in respect of referring directives and statutory instruments, in establishing what is a reasonable timeframe for the transposition of directives into Irish law, and in terms of us making the necessary recommendations on scrutiny. In many ways, you would describe our committee as being similar to air traffic control. When we get the information note, we will examine it and will recommend to the various sectoral committees whether scrutiny is deemed necessary. We may deem just a section of a directive as requiring scrutiny. My concern, and that of the committee, is that the terms of reference are very tight. What we are looking for is a commitment from the Government that there will be a broad, liberal approach to the work we do. We are still trying to find our feet. There is a bit of concern that there will be pushback, particularly from certain sections within the Civil Service, to the effect that the requests we are making are outside our remit. As a country, we are an outlier when it comes to examining and scrutinising EU directives. We have a lot of catching up to do. What I am hoping to get from the Taoiseach is a commitment that the Government will work in a positive way with the committee and will help and support us in pushing the boundaries to ensure that what we do and the work we do is effective.

An Cathaoirleach

The Taoiseach is replying to Deputy Michael Moynihan and Senators Horkan and Conway. He has four minutes.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Moynihan is spot on in terms of the real challenge we have when it comes to capacity in the system, particularly in relation to children and young people with disabilities not getting their assessments or the services and therapies that they need. A big part of what we are doing now is making sure we have more staff available. We have increased the number of training places, in particular, for therapists, psychologists and social workers. That might take a few years to have an effect, but if we do not do it now, it will never have an effect. We are giving consideration to funding people who go private. There is a bit of that happening already, but not in a systemic way. We do it pretty regularly in healthcare, through the National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF, and the cross-border directive. We refund people who go privately. However, there are pitfalls to that too. We need to make sure that the quality is at a certain level and that by funding people to go private, we do not encourage people who are currently working in the public system to migrate to the private system. I know that the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, is doing some work on that at the moment.

On the question of the medical card, my understanding was that if you are on the disability allowance, you can get a guarantee that you keep your medical card for five years even if you do not satisfy the means test anymore. I think we brought that in years ago, when I was Minister for Social Protection, but I will double-check it. I know that it is a big fear, if you have a disability, that by getting a pay increase, a promotion or working extra hours, you lose your medical card and then you are worse off. It is a very rational and understandable fear that somebody who is in good health and does not have a disability would be less worried about. We definitely do not want people to work shorter hours or not take up employment for fear of losing their medical card or their free travel pass, which is important too.

In terms of income support for carers, we have the carer's support grant, which is not means-tested, although the amount people get is relatively low. It is possible to increase that to recognise the role of carers and the work they do, regardless of any means test. The carer's allowance itself is a welfare payment. When it was established, as colleagues will know, it was established in order that people who could not work because they were working as carers and who therefore did not qualify for jobseeker's because they were not actively seeking employment at least got a payment to keep them out of poverty. It was never designed as an employment payment. If you were to get into that space, you would get into some complicated areas. If it is a payment for de facto employment, issues then arise as to the qualifications of the person, whether the position was advertised and if they are regulated, and potentially the State could become liable. There is a big difference between a welfare payment and a payment for a particular service. It is a complicated area to get into. Perhaps the best thing we can do is to increase the carer's support grant considerably, because it is not means-tested, as well as bringing in a contributory pension for carers, which I know the Minister for Social Protection is working on at the moment.

Senator Horkan is absolutely right in terms of the backlogs. There are backlogs across the public system at the moment. A lot of it is post Covid, with the suppression of demand followed by a snap-back in demand. Passports are much better and work permits are sorted out. There is only a two- or three-week turnaround time now. In An Bord Pleanála, we have appointed new members of the board and additional staff, who are hard to get but we are getting them. In the courts, additional judges are being appointed and we are expanding the Courts Service to deal with some of the backlogs there. There are some real problems in driver testing and with the NCT, but I am confident that we will work through them. I know the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, in particular, is working very hard on that.

In terms of new housing, roughly 30,000 new homes were built last year of all types - social, one-off, build-to-rent, cost rental, affordable purchase and private purchase. We need more of all of those categories, just to be very clear. We do not need less of any one of them. We need more of all of them but I think the area where we need more the most, if that makes sense, is for purchase. Of the 30,000 new homes built last year, probably only about 7,000 were available for purchase by people who want to buy a home, whether it is their first home or a second home. Looking at the first-time buyers last year, it was really good to see those numbers increase so much, but two thirds of homes bought by first-time buyers were not new homes. It would have been more like 50:50 in the past, or even in the other direction. That shows to me that as we go up from 30,000 to 35,000, 40,000 and 50,000 units, we need to make sure that the proportion of homes that are there for purchase is higher. That can be done in the planning system. It can be prescribed that these are for sale and not for rent. I would like to see more councils doing that, quite frankly.

On EU scrutiny, the committee is a really important one. I am glad to see it finally up and running.

So much of our legislation now is determined at European level. The role of Ministers has changed fundamentally in that often the directive is agreed at European Council level and there is very little to do after that. The law is just transposed into Irish law. That is why Ministers really paying attention to what they are doing at European Council meetings is really important. It is very easy to turn up at a European Council meeting and agree a general approach to a directive that somebody else has to turn into Irish law two years later. You really tie the hands of future Ministers if you do not get that right, so Ministers need to be very aware of that.

As regards the committee's work, it might make sense to do a review after a year or so, when the committee has been up and running, to see if the terms of reference are right. If the committee feels that it is getting pushback from particular Departments, it can let me know and I will see if I can help.

Deputy Patrick Costello

I apologise for being a bit late. I will try to keep this brief. I am here on behalf of Deputy Funchion, who is the Chair of the Committee on Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. One issue that the committee spends a lot of time dealing with is child poverty and its consequences. We are looking at amendments in respect of the child care (amendment) Bill and children coming into care, a lot of which is grounded, ultimately, in poverty and neglect. We are dealing with issues around unmet needs, which are often exacerbated by and exacerbate the consequences of poverty. My question, therefore, is about the child poverty unit. We have had a lot of talk about it, and I know that members of our committee are very interested in it and very interested to see positive outcomes from it because it directly impacts the work the committee does day in, day out. What I am looking for is a concrete update on where things stand with that unit. We have had a lot of talk of its establishment, but when does the Taoiseach hope to see concrete deliverables coming out of the unit and concrete work the committee can engage with and put its hands on? Poverty is so oppressive and so destructive for so many of the communities of all Deputies. Ultimately, we want to see real action on that, and we will see that only when there are concrete deliverables coming out from the child poverty unit.

The Taoiseach

It is important to put on the record that poverty, including child poverty, and inequality in Ireland have fallen, but we had a significant setback last year because of the cost-of-living crisis and inflation. I am determined that we get back on track now in reducing consistent poverty and the number of people at risk of poverty, particularly children, and in order that inequality continues to narrow. We have done a lot of things already, such as increasing the national minimum wage and moving to a living wage, which is now very much under way; introducing improvements in welfare payments, free schoolbooks and free school meals, where there are really important interventions; and reducing the cost of childcare. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, in particular has shown a lot of leadership on that. We have therefore shown cause and form already, and those are just some of the things that have been done. The abolition of hospital charges for children is another example.

One thing I really want to make sure happens in the budget in October is that child poverty and well-being are one of its themes. The new unit, which is now established, has a staff and a director. It is looking at a whole menu of options, costing them and then working out the impact they would have on child poverty. We will not be able to do them all but we will be able to do some of them. It is also looking at the issues of workless households, services for children, and pilots done in the past that were very successful but did not get mainstreamed. We are brilliant in Ireland for doing a pilot, saying how great it is and then deciding not to mainstream it. We probably need to do fewer pilots and a bit more mainstreaming. We are working on that.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Taoiseach and his officials for coming before the committee and all the committee Chairs for their participation and engagement. The meeting has covered a great deal of ground and was comprehensive. A Thaoisigh, if your officials could get back to a number of the committee Chairs-----

The Taoiseach

Yes. We have a list here.

An Cathaoirleach

-----through the clerk, we will put out-----

The Taoiseach

Just to pick up on one thing that came up, the resourcing of committees and so on is primarily a matter for the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, but if they have a proposal - a reasonable and affordable one - they can let me know about it and I will be able to engage with the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, on it.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. Thank you very much.

The joint committee suspended at 11.56 a.m., resumed in private session at 11.57 a.m. and adjourned at 11.59 a.m. sine die.