Comhchoiste na Gaeilge, na Gaeltachta agus Phobal Labhartha na Gaeilge díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 14 Jun 2023

An tÉileamh don Ghaeloideachas: an Roinn Oideachais

An Cathaoirleach

Leanfaidh an seisiún seo ar aghaidh go dtí 4.30 p.m., más gá. Tá leithscéal faighte againn ó na Teachtaí Fergus O'Dowd agus Marc Ó Cathasaigh. Chomh maith leis sin, tá leithscéal faighte againn ón Teachta Ó Murchú agus beidh an Teachta Sorca Clarke ag freastal ar an gcruinniú ina áit, má thagann sí isteach.

Cuirim fáilte roimh chomhaltaí an chomhchoiste, roimh aon chomhalta eile atá ag freastal ar an gcruinniú, roimh na finnéithe a bheidh ag labhairt os comhair ár gcoiste inniu agus roimh ár lucht féachana ar sheirbhís teilifíse an Oireachtais. Fearaim fáilte roimh an Aire Oideachais, an Teachta Foley, agus roimh a cuid oifigeach: Evelyn O’Connor, príomhoifigeach sa rannóg bheartais, churaclaim agus mheasúnachta; Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe, príomhoifigeach san aonad um oideachas Gaeltachta; Anne Tansey, stiúrthóir na Seirbhíse Náisiúnta Síceolaíochta Oideachais; Celeste O'Callaghan, príomhoifigeach sa rannóg churaclaim agus mheasúnachta; Jill Fannin, príomhoifigeach san aonad beartais oideachais mhúinteoirí; Murty Hanly, príomhoifigeach san aonad pleanála agus tógála; agus Fidelma Lyons, príomhoifigeach cúnta san aonad pleanála agus tógála. Cuirim ar an taifead go bhfuil na finnéithe ar fad ag freastal ar an gcruinniú ó sheomra coiste 4, taobh istigh de phurláin Thithe an Oireachtais.

Leanfaimid anois lenár mbreathnú ar an éileamh ar Ghaeloideachas nach bhfuil á shásamh agus an Ghaeilge mar ábhar i mbunscoileanna agus in iar-bhunscoileanna an Stáit.

Tá sé mar dhualgas orm na rialacha agus na treoracha seo a leanas a chur faoi bhráid na bhfinnéithe atá ag freastal ar an gcruinniú inniu. Meabhraím do chomhaltaí, d'fhinnéithe agus do bhaill na foirne a chinntiú go bhfuil a ngutháin shoghluaiste múchta le linn an chruinnithe mar is féidir leis na gléasanna sin cur isteach ar chórais chraolacháin, eagarthóireachta agus fuaime Thithe an Oireachtais. Tá an rogha ag comhaltaí a bheith ag an gcruinniú go fisiciúil sa seomra coiste nó go fíorúil ar Microsoft Teams ar an gcoinníoll, i gcás cruinnithe phoiblí, gur óna n-oifigí i dTithe an Oireachtais a dhéantar sin. Is riachtanas bunreachtúil é sin. Nuair atá siad ag freastal óna n-oifigí, ba chóir dóibh a bhfíseáin a bheith ar siúl an t-am go léir agus iad féin le feiscint ar an scáileán. Baineann an coinníoll seo le finnéithe atá ag freastal ar an gcruinniú go fíorúil freisin. Caithfidh aon duine atá ag freastal ar an gcruinniú go fíorúil déanamh cinnte de go bhfuil a micreafóin múchta ach amháin nuair atá siad ag glacadh páirte sa phlé atá ar bun sa choiste.

Cuirim ar aird na bhfinnéithe inniu go bhfuil siad, de bhua Bhunreacht na hÉireann agus reachtaíochta araon, faoi chosaint ag lánphribhléid maidir leis an bhfianaise a thugann siad don chomhchoiste chomh fada agus atá siad lonnaithe laistigh de phurláin Thithe an Oireachtais agus an fhianaise sin á tabhairt acu. Molaim d'fhinnéithe a bheith cúramach agus fianaise á tabhairt acu. Má ordaíonn an comhchoiste dóibh éirí as fianaise a thabhairt i leith ní áirithe, ba chóir go ndéantar amhlaidh láithreach. Ordaítear dóibh gan aon fhianaise a thabhairt nach fianaise í a bhaineann le hábhar na n-imeachtaí atá á bplé ag an gcomhchoiste. Ba chóir dóibh a bheith ar an eolas go ndéanfar na ráitis tosaigh a cuireadh faoi bhráid an chomhchoiste a fhoilsiú ar shuíomh gréasáin an chomhchoiste tar éis an chruinnithe seo.

Iarrtar ar fhinnéithe agus ar chomhaltaí araon an cleachtadh parlaiminte a urramú nár chóir, más féidir, daoine nó eintiteas a cháineadh ná líomhaintí a dhéanamh ina n-aghaidh ná tuairimí a thabhairt maidir leo ina ainm, ina hainm nó ina n-ainmneacha ar shlí a bhféadfaí iad a aithint. Chomh maith leis sin, iarrtar orthu gan aon ní a rá a d’fhéadfaí breathnú air mar ábhar díobhálach do dhea-chlú aon duine nó eintiteas. Mar sin, dá bhféadfadh a ráitis a bheith clúmhillteach do aon duine nó eintiteas aitheanta, ordófar dóibh éirí as an ráiteas sin láithreach. Tá sé ríthábhachtach go ngéillfí leis an ordú sin láithreach, má eisítear é.

Is iad sin na treoracha ar fad. Aontaímid leo. Anois, cuirfimid tús lenár mbreathnú ar ábhar an chruinnithe inniu. Iarraim ar an Aire Oideachais, an Teachta Foley, a ráiteas tosaigh a roinnt linn.

Minister for Education (Deputy Norma Foley)

Tá áthas orm a bheith anseo inniu os comhair Chomhchoiste na Gaeilge, na Gaeltachta agus Phobal Labhartha na Gaeilge chun plé a dhéanamh ar an bhfáil ar oideachas trí mheán na Gaeilge agus ar an nGaeilge mar ábhar curaclaim.

Tá mo Roinn go hiomlán tiomanta don oideachas lán-Ghaeilge, laistigh agus lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht. Ó 2019, tá bunú 47 scoil nua fógartha. Sa phróiseas pátrúnachta, leagtar béim ar leith ar Ghaelscoileanna, Gaelcholáistí agus aonaid lán-Ghaeilge a bhunú. Caithfidh sé a bheith d’acmhainn ag formhór na n-iar-bhunscoileanna nua freastal ar rollachán de idir 600 agus 1,000 scoláire. Is féidir le leibhéal níos ísle de 400 scoláire a bheith i gceist le Gaelcholáistí agus is féidir féachaint freisin le haonad lán-Ghaeilge a bhunú i scoil a fheidhmíonn trí Bhéarla. Má léirítear sna sonraí déimeagrafacha go bhfuil áiteanna breise scoile ag teastáil, déantar é seo a mheas ar bhonn aonair. D’fhéadfaí freastal ar an éileamh seo trí úsáid a bhaint as spásanna breise atá ar fáil i scoil amháin nó i scoileanna éagsúla nó trí chur le scoileanna atá ann cheana féin. Déanann clár tógála scoile mo Roinne tionscadail tógála scoile buana a chur ar fáil chun a chinntiú go bhfuil dóthain áiteanna i mbunscoileanna agus in iar-bhunscoileanna do na scoláirí agus daltaí ar fad in Éirinn. I rith an tréimhse ó 2018 go 2022, chuir mo Roinn 49 tionscadal tógála i gcrích ó fhoirgnimh nua go hathchóiriú agus méadú ar na foirgnimh scoile atá ann cheana féin. Mar chuid den fhorbairt ar an bpolasaí nua don oideachas lán-Ghaeilge, beidh mo Roinn ag féachaint freisin, i measc rudaí eile, ar an tslí ina bhféadfaí cur leis na deiseanna chun Gaelscoileanna agus Gaelcholáistí a bhunú mar chuid den phróiseas pátrúnachta do scoileanna nua.

Ó thaobh na Gaeilge de, ag an leibhéal bunscoile, glacann curaclam teanga na bunscoile, a tugadh isteach in 2019 do ranganna na naíonáin bheaga go dtí rang a sé, cur chuige cuimsitheach i leith foghlaim teanga agus naisc a dhéanamh idir teangacha agus scileanna teanga difriúla. Tacaíonn an ceangal idir an dá theanga le múinteoirí pleanáil don fhoghlaim i dteanga 1 agus i dteanga 2 na scoile. Foilsíodh creatchuraclam na bunscoile i mí an Mhárta i mbliana. Rinneadh taighde agus comhairliúchán suntasach mar chuid den phlean. Leagtar amach ann an t-íosmhéid ama atá molta do réimsí an churaclaim. Cuireann an creat bloc míosúil d’am solúbtha i láthair. Méadaíonn sé freisin an méid ama atá ar fáil don fholláine, is é sin corpoideachas agus social, personal and health education, SPHE, gach seachtain ó uair an chloig go leith go dtí trí huaire an chloig ó rang 1 go rang 6. Chun na hathruithe seo a dhéanamh, tá roinnt ama tugtha ag na réimsí eile ar fad den churaclam, teangacha san áireamh. Leis an am solúbtha, tá deis ann le haghaidh tréimhsí méadaithe foghlama in aon cheann de na réimsí curaclaim, an Ghaeilge ina measc.

Maidir leis an tsraith shóisearach, dhein an National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, athbhreithniú in 2022 ar chur i bhfeidhm luath shonraíochtaí T1 agus T2 na sraithe sóisearaí. Tharla sé seo mar fhreagairt ar iarratais ó na páirtithe oideachais. Chuir SEALBHÚ an t-athbhreithniú i gcrích don Chomhairle Náisiúnta Curaclaim agus Measúnachta, CNCM, nó NCCA, agus d’fhoilsigh an NCCA an tuarascáil níos luaithe i mbliana. Mar a thug an NCCA faoi deara, leag an t-athbhreithniú béim ar láidreachtaí. Go ginearálta, fáiltíodh roimh an gcur chuige difreáilte sa tsraith shóisearach, chomh maith leis an leibhéal de rogha agus roghnú téacsanna agus an úsáid a bhaintear as an bhfoghlaim ghníomhach agus as an nGaeilge labhartha.

Chomh maith leis sin, leagadh béim ar na dúshláin. Áiríodh ina measc an iomarca béime a bheith ar an litríocht agus an Ghaeilge labhartha a bheith thíos leis. Ba léir nach raibh an measúnú ag tabhairt dóthain tacaíochta do chomhrá as Gaeilge. Mar fhreagairt air sin, tá athruithe tugtha isteach ag an NCCA. Is maith é gur athruithe iad seo a tharlóidh láithreach agus go dtiocfaidh siad i bhfeidhm i mí Mheán Fómhair 2023. Déanfaidh an CNCM athbhreithniú freisin agus baileofar níos mó aiseolais faoi thaithí na scoileanna ar a bheith ag obair le sonraíochtaí T1 agus T2 Gaeilge na sraithe sóisearaí. Tá deis ann freisin monatóireacht agus meastóireacht a dhéanamh ar na hathruithe atá ag teacht isteach don scoilbhliain amach romhainn.

Maidir leis an tsraith shinsearach, d’fhoilsigh an NCCA dréachtshonraíochtaí T1 agus T2 do Ghaeilge na hardteistiméireachta le haghaidh comhairliúcháin in 2021. Bhí comhairliúchán fairsing ar an dréachtchuraclam thar naoi mí agus d’fhoilsigh an NCCA tuarascáil faoin gcomhairliúchán sin níos luaithe i mbliana.

Sa tuarascáil seo tugtar faoi deara go bhfuil tuairimí difriúla ag go leor daoine maidir le fís agus cuspóir Ghaeilge na hardteistiméireachta. Moladh roghanna eile éagsúla in áit shamhail T1 agus T2 le linn an chomhairliúcháin ach ní raibh aon chomhaontú maidir le haon rogha áirithe eile. Sa deireadh shocraigh an NCCA, seachas dul ar aghaidh leis an gcuraclam mar atá leagtha amach, tuilleadh taighde a dhéanamh ar conas a chuireann tíortha difriúla saothar teanga ar fáil. Tá an obair sin ar siúl i láthair na huaire.

Tá an-áthas orm a bheith anseo inniu agus ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leis an gcoiste as ucht féachaint ar na saincheisteanna seo, atá an-tábhachtach. Beidh idir Ghaeilge agus Bhéarla á n-úsáid agam agus na ceisteanna á bhfreagairt.

An Cathaoirleach

Go raibh maith agat. Feicim go bhfuil an Seanadóir Kyne agus an Teachta McHugh linn go fíorúil. Glaoim ar an Teachta Connolly.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe go léir. Is iontach an deis a bheith againn cúrsaí Gaeilge a phlé, go háirid sa chóras oideachais. Tá neart ábhar ann agus ní féidir réimse ceisteanna a chur maidir leis na hábhair uilig. Ní saineolaí mé ach ní mór dom a rá nach bhfuil na dreamanna atá tagtha os ár gcomhair sásta leis na cinntí a rinneadh. Luaigh mé iad agus níl mé chun iad a phlé i ndáiríre mar de réir mar a thuigim tá an Roinn ag rá rud amháin agus na dreamanna atá tagtha os ár gcomhair ag rá rud eile. Táim sásta go bhfuil síneadh ama curtha maidir leis an gcinneadh an scrúdú Gaeilge a chur siar. Tá stop leis sin faoi láthair ach níl sé stoptha go hiomlán. Níl sé éasca dúinne ar an gcoiste mar ba chóir go mbeadh na rudaí sin oibrithe amach agus níl.

Ba mhaith liom díriú isteach ar ábhar ginearálta. Tosóidh mé leis an dea-scéal agus an rud ba dhearfaí a tháinig os ár gcomhair, sé sin, an polasaí don oideachas Gaeltachta 2017-22. Cad é stádas an pholasaí sin? Tá a fhios agam go raibh síniú ama i gceist. Cá bhfuilimid? An bhfuil na figiúirí ag na finnéithe inniu ó thaobh polasaí nua nuair atá sé seo críochnaithe? An leanfaidh sé ar aghaidh? Cad mar gheall ar an bpróiseas ó thaobh aitheantas a thabhairt do na scoileanna? Cé mhéad scoil atá laistigh den chóras seo anois? Níl mé ag iarraidh mo chuid ama a úsáid suas. An bhfuil na figiúirí sin ag na finnéithe? Tosóidh mé leis an gceist sin.

Deputy Norma Foley

Is an Gaeltacht education policy 2017-22 atá i gceist ag an Teachta, an ea?

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Sin é.

Deputy Norma Foley

Chun é sin a chur i gcrích, tá roinnt rudaí déanta againne. Ar an gcéad dul síos, the Gaeltacht education unit has been established in the Department. There is also the Gaeltacht recognition scheme. Ms Nic Dhoinnléibhe may well come in on this. At present there are in and around 103 primary schools, to my understanding, and 29 post-primary schools involved in that scheme. The validation process has commenced by the inspectorate and that is due to be completed by Easter of 2024. There is also the establishment of specific Irish education teacher programmes, for example the bachelor of education through Irish in Marino Institute of Education. This year we have doubled the places available on that course to promote it. Then there is the master of education and funding has been made available for that as well.

I am sure the Deputy is aware of this but we have also introduced the e-hub, which has been quite an innovative initiative from the Department. There are students in nine post-primary schools located in the Gaeltacht studying for the leaving certificate, in particular physics and chemistry, via the hub.

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe

Tá cúpla aicsean eile fós ar bun againn. Mar shampla, tá COGG ag obair faoi láthair air seo. Ceann de na gníomhaíochtaí a luadh ná go raibh gá le tacaíocht do pháistí le riachtanais speisialta sa chóras. Tá COGG i mbun mionfhiosrúcháin faoi láthair i dtaobh riachtanais speisialta sa chóras lán-Ghaeilge agus tá siad ag cur treoir le chéile anois do na scoileanna laistigh den Ghaeltacht. Sin ceann de na mórghníomhaíochtaí breise sin atá fós ar bun.

Bhí ceist ag an Teachta faoi aitheantas. Mar a luaigh an tAire, tá an chigireacht tar éis tús a chur leis na cuairteanna chuig na scoileanna an bhliain seo caite. Thosaigh siad i mí Dheireadh Fómhair 2022 agus tá an-dul chun cinn déanta acu. Beidh na cuairteanna sin ag teacht chun deiridh roimh Cháisc 2024. Tá céatadán an-ard de na bunscoileanna tar éis cuairt a fháil agus tuilleadh le déanamh an bhliain seo chugainn. As na hiar-bhunscoileanna, ceapaim go bhfuil ceithre scoil déanta agus na cinn eile le déanamh an bhliain seo chugainn. Tá ag éirí go geal leis na scoileanna nuair a chloiseann tú na scéalta atá ag teacht ar ais agus na dea-chleachtais a chloistear fúthu sna scoileanna, na hathruithe atá tar éis tarlú agus an bláthú atá tar éis teacht ar an nGaeilge laistigh de na comhthéacsanna sin. Sin an t-aiseolas atá ag teacht chugainne ón gcigireacht.

Nuair a fhaigheann an scoil an chuairt, bíonn ar an gcigire tuairisc a scríobh agus bíonn ar an tuairisc sin dul faoi athbhreithniú cáilíochta laistigh den Roinn. Ansin cuirtear an tuairisc ar ais chuig an scoil agus nuair atá siadsan sásta leis na fíricí agus sásta go bhfuil siad i gceart, seoltar ar ais chuig an gcigireacht arís é. Ag an bpointe sin faigheann muidne san aonad um oideachas Gaeltachta an tuairisc sin agus ina dhiaidh sin bronntar an t-aitheantas oifigiúil. Sin an fáth go bhfuil próiseas níos faide-----

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Tuigim an próiseas agus tuigim go raibh moill ann de bharr Covid. Cén uair a bheidh an próiseas críochnaithe? Cén uair a bheidh na scoileanna uilig déanta agus an t-aitheantas faighte acu? Cé mhéad scoil nár ghlac páirt sa phróiseas?

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe

Ag leibhéal na bunscoile, mar a dúirt an tAire, tá 103 scoil ag glacadh páirt sa scéim aitheantais ach bhí 27 scoil nár ghlac páirt. Ag leibhéal na hiar-bhunscoile, tá 29 scoil ann agus tá gach uile scoil ag an leibhéal sin ag glacadh páirt sa scéim aitheantais.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Tá sé sin iontach gur ghlac gach iar-bhunscoil páirt. Maidir leis an 27 bunscoil nár ghlac páirt, an bhfuil anailís nó staidéar déanta ar na fáthanna nár ghlac? An bhfuil briseadh síos ann ar na scoileanna sin, cén áit a bhfuil siad agus na fáthanna nár ghlac siad páirt?

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe

Tá na sonraí againn maidir leis na scoileanna nár ghlac páirt. Gach uile bhliain téann muid i dteagmháil leis na scoileanna sin ag tabhairt deis bhreise dóibh teacht isteach sa scéim agus i mbliana tá scoil sa bhreis tar éis iarratas a chur isteach. Tar éis cúig bliana nó tar éis na scéime ina iomláine, tá scoileanna as an 27 sin fós ag breathnú ar na himlitreacha a sheoltar amach agus tá an deis sin fós acu. Tá sé i gceist againn leanúint ar aghaidh leis sin chun go mbeidh deiseanna ag na scoileanna sin teacht isteach. Bíonn COGG an-lárnach sa phróiseas sin. Bíonn siadsan i dteagmháil leis na scoileanna más suim leo agus más rud é go bhfuil siad ag iarraidh fiosrú a dhéanamh faoi chur isteach ar an aitheantas. Tá siadsan tar éis cabhrú leis an bpróiseas seo.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Cén uair a bheidh an próiseas uilig críochnaithe?

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe

Braitheann sé ar na scoileanna. Sa pholasaí nó sa scéim, tá critéir leagtha amach agus caithfidh na scoileanna na critéir a chomhlíonadh-----

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Tuigim é sin agus tá sé léite agam. Dúradh 2022 agus anois is 2024 atá ann. An mbeidh an próiseas críochnaithe in 2024?

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe

Beidh an chéad bhabhta de na cuairteanna chuig na scoileanna atá ag glacadh páirt críochnaithe roimh an gCáisc 2024.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Iontach.

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe

Más rud é go bhfuil scoileanna ann go bhfuil níos mó ama ag teastáil uathu agus nach bhfuil gach uile chritéir fós á chomhlíonadh acu, tá sé scríofa sa treoir go dtabharfar breis ama dóibh agus go dtabharfar síneadh agus tacaíocht má tá siad ag teastáil uathu. Caithfidh muid a bheith an-oscailte dó sin agus tuiscint go bhfuil aistear níos faide ag roinnt scoileanna ná mar atá ag scoileanna eile.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

An mbeidh polasaí nua i gceist ag an bpointe sin nó an sin é?

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe

Bíonn an coiste comhairleach mar chuid den chomhrá maidir le cá bhfuil ár dtriail don chéad chéim eile den pholasaí seo. Tá cruinniú le bheith againn an mhí seo chugainn leis an gcoiste comhairleach sin agus sin ceann de na ceisteanna a bheidh le plé – cad í an chéad chéim eile agus cá bhfuil ár dtriail ina dhiaidh sin?

Mar nuair a thagann sé chun deiridh in 2024, táimid ag iarraidh smaoineamh anois ar cad í an chéad chéim eile don pholasaí agus don scéim go ginearálta.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Cá bhfuil ár dtriail? Is ceist í sin gur is féidir linn go léir a chur orainn féin.

Maidir leis an bpolasaí do na scoileanna taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht mar atá leagtha amach sa straitéis 20 bliain, cá bhfuilimid leis an straitéis sin?

Deputy Norma Foley

Faoi mar is eol don Teachta bhí comhairliúchán poiblí ann. A public consultation was launched in October 2022 and the public consultation aspect of it concluded at the end of January 2023. It is amazing to think that the online questionnaire listed more than 10,000 responses. It was an absolutely phenomenal uptake and show of interest, and I think, solidarity and support for a development of a policy in this area. What has come in through that is being currently analysed. The direct engagement with bilaterals and with stakeholders is ongoing and the consultation with 25 focus groups on the policy has been just recently completed. That is completed. There are three aspects to it, namely, the public consultation, the 25 focus groups, and finally the engagement with the stakeholders. The engagement with the stakeholders is currently ongoing and that is the last piece of the puzzle, as it were. It is our intention to move this as quickly as we possibly can and it is our expectation that the policy will be in place for September 2024.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Is é sin an spriocdháta?

Deputy Norma Foley

Is ea.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Ach beidh polasaí cuimsitheach ar an talamh ag an bpointe sin. An é sin do na scoileanna? An gclúdaíonn sé sin réamhscolaíocht, suas go dtí na hollscoileanna?

Deputy Norma Foley

It does, actually. It covers from early years right through.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Mar sin, beidh sé againn in 2024.

Deputy Norma Foley

Is é sin an aidhm atá againn.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Mar is eol do na finnéithe, d’fhreastail muid go léir ar agóidí taobh amuigh den Dáil de bharr nach bhfuil an Rialtas in ann freastal ar an éileamh atá ann ó thaobh Gaelcholáistí, go háirithe i mBaile Átha Cliath. D’fhreastail mé féin ar dhá ócáid taobh amuigh den Dáil. De réir mar a thuigim, tá an t-éileamh céanna i gCaisleán an Bharraigh i gContae Mhaigh Eo, agus i gContae an Chláir. Tá frustrachas ann. Is scéal dearfach amach agus amach é go bhfuil éileamh chomh mór sin ann ó thaobh na Gaeilge de agus oideachas trí Ghaeilge á lorg. De réir mar a fheicim agus mar atá ráite liom, níl aon sprioc ag an Roinn Oideachais ó thaobh líon na n-áiseanna nó na scoileanna atá ar fáil ó thaobh na Gaeilge de. Tá figiúr anseo agamsa. Mar a dúirt Conradh na Gaeilge linn, níl rogha na Gaelscolaíochta ar fáil ach ag líon an-bheag tuismitheoirí timpeall na tíre, 6.7%. Cuirtear sin i gcomparáid leis an mBreatain Bheag, mar shampla. In ainneoin go bhfuil an figiúr sin chomh híseal sin, ní fheicim go bhfuil aon sprioc ag an Roinn le freastal ar an éileamh sin, nó an bhfuil?

An Cathaoirleach

Sílim nach bhfuil na hiar-bhunscoileanna Gaeilge ar fáil sna háiteanna-----

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Sna háiteanna uilig ar fud na tíre.

An Cathaoirleach

-----ar fud na tíre. Tá léiriú sa cháipéis a tugadh dúinn le léiriú cé chomh dona is atá cúrsaí.

Deputy Norma Foley

Aontaím leis an Teachta. Is maith an rud é go bhfuil daoine ag lorg Gaelscoileanna agus Gaelcholáistí. Aontaím léi ó thaobh an phointe sin. I agree absolutely that it is our aspiration that there would be greater access, opportunity, and greater prevalence of availability in terms of the Gaelscoileanna and the Gaelcholáistí. In terms of balance, since 2019 there have been 47 new Irish-medium schools established. We give particular concession for the establishment of Gaelcholáistí. Generally, for a new school to be established the requirement is between 600 and 1,000 pupils. There is a lessor requirement when it comes to the Gaelcholáistí in that 400 will be sufficient to inaugurate a Gaelcholáiste. Equally so, I will be clear that the patronage process is open to everyone. We are very keen that we would work hand in hand where there is a need. We have representatives from the planning and building unit here as well who will be very happy to provide some of the specific cases the Deputy has raised. Where there is a demographic need, if they can reach the 400, there will be the establishment of a school. If that is not possible, it is open to any English-medium school to establish an aonad. I know people have mixed views around the aonaid but many of the Gaelcholáistí we have ag an bpointe seo started in an aonad. The policy we are currently looking at or examining in terms of policy for Irish-medium schools outside of the Gaeltacht is looking very specifically at what opportunities, initiatives and what we can do in terms of growing the number of Gaelscoileanna and Gaelcholáistí. We are very focused on it. We want to support it to the best of our ability and therefore in examples such as the threshold decrease and the establishment of the aonaid, we are happy to work with that going forward.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Is maith an rud é sin go bhfuil sé clúdaithe faoin bpróiseas atá ar siúl faoi láthair ach is féidir an frustrachas agus an fhearg a mhothú ó na tuismitheoirí agus na daltaí atá gan seirbhís. Creidim nach bhfeileann an córas atá ann don éileamh atá ar an talamh ar fud na tíre de réir na figiúirí seo agus ón méid atá feicthe ag na hagóidí. Níor leor é don Aire a rá go dtagann sé faoin bpátrúnacht. Tá dualgas faoi leith uirthi agus ar an Roinn mar gurb í an Ghaeilge príomhtheanga na tíre agus nach bhfuilimid ag freastal ar an éileamh atá ann. Tá súil agam go mbeidh siad ag díriú isteach ar an éileamh sin anois agus go mbeidh réitigh á gcur i bhfeidhm chun déileáil leis. Is dúshlán thar a bheith dearfach é. Is fadhb iontach í. Ní fadhb atá ann; is rud dearfach é go bhfuil an t-éileamh anseo ach níl an Roinn ag freastal air. Is dócha go bhfuil easpa tuisceana áit éigin. B’fhéidir nach bhfuil an ceart agam ach ceapaim go bhfuil easpa tuisceana ó thaobh cé chomh tábhachtach is atá sé córas oideachais trí Ghaeilge a chur ar fáil.

Críochnóidh mé agus mé ag rá go bhfuil fadhbanna eile ann ó thaobh líon na díolúintí atá ag ardú an t-am uilig agus tá daoine atá i bhfad níos meabhraí ná mé féin ag rá linn go bhfuil fadhb uafásach anseo. Tá fadhb ann freisin maidir leis an gcinneadh atá déanta an méid ama atá le caitheamh ar an nGaeilge a laghdú. Is cúis mhór imní é seo do a lán daoine; múinteoirí agus lucht acadúla ina measc. Tá sé sin ráite go mion minic againn. Nuair a chuirim an rud sin i gcomhthéacs, ceapaim go bhfuil easpa tuisceana ann, in ainneoin na rudaí atá déanta atá thar a bheith dearfach. Ceapaim go bhfuil gá le meon níos oscailte a bheith againn ó thaobh na Gaeilge de, agus an tábhacht a bhaineann léi. Is gá dul i ngleic leis an dúshlán atá cothaithe anois ó thaobh éilimh de.

Deputy Norma Foley

An féidir liom teacht isteach air sin?

An Cathaoirleach

Gabh ar aghaidh.

Deputy Norma Foley

Aontaím leis an Teachta go bhfuil suíomh speisialta ag an nGaelainn sa Stát seo agus is maith an rud é sin. Táim féin agus an Roinn sásta gach iarracht a dhéanamh chun an suíomh sin a chaomhnú. Tá an-dul chun cinn déanta againn in áiteanna áirithe. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil níos mó ag teastáil. We have done quite a bit. I am very conscious that we have more to do. It absolutely is the ambition of the Department that there would be the provision of Irish education in as many places as possible to meet the needs. We have shown some progress in terms of even giving special consideration to the numbers that are required, as I have said, going from 1,000-pupil schools down to 400 for Gaelscoileanna. Equally, the Deputy has referenced things like the reduction in the number of hours for the teaching of Irish. I want to comment quickly on that because I know other people have to come in.

We are very conscious that more and more is being demanded of our schools every single day. It is fair to say that, wherever there is an issue within society, society looks to the schools to address it. The curriculum is therefore being expanded and expanded. This is a consequence of significant consultation undertaken by the NCCA. The general public are asking us to give greater weight to well-being, SPHE, corpoideachas and all of that. We have seen an increase from one and a half to three hours in that regard. Every subject across the curriculum, not just the languages, has had to accommodate that increase. However, while that has been accommodated and while there has been a reduction in the time for language 2, which in an English-medium school is Irish, there is no change in the time made available for those at stage 1, that is, junior and senior infants. That is unchanged at two and half hours per week. At stages 2 to 4, from first class right up to sixth class, there is a reduction of 30 minutes, which means that there are three hours available. However, it is very important to say that there is also a block of what we call flexitime made available to the schools. I trust in the professionalism of the staff to know that a particular area might need more attention. If that area is Gaeilge, the school can use that flexitime block to augment the teaching of Irish. If staff identify a different area, they will use this time for that area. There is a continuous conflict in that more and more is being asked of the curriculum and more and more needs to be done. We are doing our very best to accommodate that but we must also give autonomy to the schools to make the best judgment.

On the exemptions, it is important to say that there has actually been a reduction in the number of exemptions at primary school level. There has been an increase in the number of exemptions at post-primary level. We must also remember that there has been a considerable increase in the number of young people accessing special educational needs supports within our schools. We have seen an exponential increase there. We have also seen an enormous increase in the number of students coming from other countries. To take Ukraine alone, we are looking at 15,000 students from Ukraine who are now resident in this country. The face of Ireland has changed quite a bit and so, therefore, have the needs in the schools. It is important that we accommodate children with additional needs within schools. If they need to be accommodated by way of exemption, there is an automatic exemption for those in special classes or special schools. Notwithstanding that, for balance, I will also say that we in the Department are working very hard to ensure that other opportunities, whether with regard to the culture or heritage, are also experienced in schools. We have the creative clusters and the Bringing Live Arts to Students and Teachers, BLAST, programme. All of the emphasis is on the culture of the language. It is a balancing act.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Maidir leis an méid sin, ní féidir gan a lua an rud atá ráite go minic agus go poiblí ag an Ollamh Ó Duibhir, atá ina stiúrthóir ar SEALBHÚ. Tá creimeadh ag tarlú an t-am ar fad ó thaobh na n-uaireanta maidir le teagasc na Gaeilge. Tá creimeadh ag tarlú an t-am ar fad. Ní dóigh liom go dtuigeann an pobal oideachais é seo, gan trácht ar an bpobal i gcoitinne. Dúirt sé go gcuireann sé "olc" air agus go mbraitheann sé "go bhfuil sé maslach a rá go bhfuil an t-am laghdaithe ach go dtiocfaidh feabhas ar chumas na ndaltaí". D'iarr sé conas is féidir glacadh leis sin. Tá easaontas láidir anseo ó thaobh an meon atá ag an Roinn agus an meon atá ag na saineolaithe atá taobh amuigh di.

Deputy Norma Foley

I appreciate that there are mixed and different views in this regard but we must recognise that there are demands being placed on the curriculum and that we have to expand it. It would be erroneous to think that the only experience of Irish is in the allocated hours. We have seen many other initiatives, for example, the content and language integrated learning, CLIL, programme through which PE is being taught through the Irish language in our schools. As I have already referenced, we are seeing the social aspect of the language being used with the experience of the music and the culture and all of that. We walk a very fine line here. We have given autonomy to the schools to maximise their use of these hours. If they have identified that they should be used for the Irish language, they are free to use them in that way to support the Irish language. However, I will again say that there is no direct vision to go after any one particular subject. All subjects have had to give a little to accommodate the ever-changing demands on the curriculum.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an tuairisc agus as a cuid freagraí. Táim chun díriú isteach ar trí ábhar faoi leith. Ar dtús, bíonn brú an-mhór ar scoileanna múinteoirí a fháil atá ábalta a ngnó a dhéanamh trí Ghaelainn i réimse leathan ábhar. Tá deacracht faoi leith ag scoileanna atá lonnaithe sa Ghaeltacht. Agus iad ag fógairt poist, ní chuirfeadh sé ionadh orthu ní hamháin go mbeadh orthu é a fhógairt roinnt uaire, ach gur féidir nach mbeadh aon iarrthóir. Nílim ag caint faoi dhaoine oiriúnacha le Gaeilge amháin. Is féidir nach mbeadh éinne in aon chor ag cur isteach ar chuid de na poist. Tá sé fíorthábhachtach go mbeadh múinteoirí ar fáil chun múineadh sna scoileanna Gaeltachta atá in ann a ngnó a dhéanamh le Gaelainn láidir. Bhí scéim phíolótach ann cheana féin chun cúrsaí fisice a thabhairt chun cinn. Bhí múinteoir ar líne roinnte idir roinnt scoileanna. Tá i bhfad níos mó taithí againn ar mhúineadh ar líne ó shin. Cad go díreach atá tagtha as sin? An bhfuil aon dul chun cinn leis an múineadh ar líne? Ag an am céanna, caithfear múinteoirí a chur ar fáil in person. Táim ag caint faoi mhúinteoirí a bheadh ag seasamh sa rang atá ábalta a ngnó a dhéanamh trí Ghaelainn sna hábhair éagsúla. Caithfear dul i ngleic leis an bhfadhb sin atá ag na scoileanna Gaeltachta. Cad go díreach atá ag tarlú ansin? Cén dul chun cinn atá déanta chun múinteoirí le Gaelainn a chur ar fáil?

Luadh an straitéis. Feicimid é. Tá an Ghaelainn á múineadh sna naíonraí, sna bunscoileanna, sna meánscoileanna agus ag an tríú leibhéal. Dhéanfadh sé ciall straitéis iomlán a bheith ann i gcomhair na teanga tríd an gcóras oideachais ar fad. Tuigim go bhfuil roinnt oibre tosaithe air sin. Ní fheadar cé chomh tapa nó mall a tharlóidh sé. B'fhearr linn go mbeadh sé ag bogadh níos tapúla. An féidir é a bhrostú ar aghaidh? An aithnítear go bhfuil gá leis agus go bhfuil gá práinneach ann é a bhrostú ar aghaidh? Luadh 2024. An féidir é a bhrostú ar aghaidh? Má tá sé á shíneadh amach i bhfad uainn, léiríonn sé sin teachtaireacht nach bhfuil sé mar an chloch is mó ar ár bpaidrín. Tá gá leis chun rudaí a tharraingt le chéile agus chun go mbeadh straitéis shoiléir i gcomhair na Gaelainne tríd an gcóras ina iomláine. An bhféadfadh an tAire a léiriú an féidir é sin a bhrostú ar aghaidh?

Luadh an páipéar ardteistiméireachta ag deireadh bliain a cúig. Is sampla maith é sin mar a bhaineann sé leis an straitéis. Tá sé sin curtha siar ar feadh bliana nó tréimhse mar sin anois. B'fhéidir go mbeadh sé i gceist ag an Roinn teacht ar ais agus cinneadh a dhéanamh air sin arís, fiú roimh an straitéis atáthar ag caint faoina fhoilsiú i mí Mheán Fómhair 2024. Shamhlófaí go mbrostófar ar aghaidh an straitéis agus go mbeadh sé ullamh roimh aon chinneadh a dhéanamh mar gheall ar an athrú ar an ardteistiméireacht. An féidir é sin a dhéanamh? An féidir soiléiriú a thabhairt ar an bplean ansin?

Deputy Norma Foley

Ó thaobh na múinteoirí de, from the point of view of the teachers and the need to support them and get as many of them as possible confident in the teaching of Irish, very significant work is going on in this area.

Specifically, the Deputy referred to teachers in the Gaeltacht and the need for them to have a particular caighdeán or standard. For example, 10% of places in the teaching colleges, supported by the State, are made available to those coming from the Gaeltacht who want to go into teaching. The bachelor of education through Irish is fully covered by the Department and we have doubled the places available there, mindful that there is a need from a Gaeltacht point of view to be doing all we can to support teachers coming from that area. We have also recently tendered for upskilling in Irish for staff who are already in place and wish to upskill. We have run that programme very successfully in other subject areas and there has been a huge uptake of it. We are now rolling out the programme in Irish as well.

The Deputy referenced the e-hub and the teaching of physics and chemistry. That e-hub is catering for nine post-primary schools and has been very successful. The Deputy is correct - tá an ceart aige ó thaobh Covid. We learned a lot about how we can do things online and all of that. That programme is running as well. We constantly have continuing professional development, CPD, being made available within our schools. We have a very good Gaeilge Bheo! programme, which is a live and interactive programme online that is available to staff. We have post-primary advisers specifically in the area of Gaeilge working in our schools. There is also the Tionól Teagaisc, the conference for teachers of Irish. In our primary schools we have the content and language integrated learning, CLIL, programme with PE through Irish and all of that. There is a huge amount of work taking place at the moment. We have given additional resources to COGG to promote and run programmes that would be supportive of the Irish language and upskilling for staff.

Specifically on the strategy, I absolutely-----

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Más féidir liom teacht isteach sula bhfágaimid soláthar na múinteoirí, luadh an 10% ag teacht ó na Gaeltachtaí. Tá a leithéid sin ann le fada an lá.

Deputy Norma Foley

Tá.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Céard faoi na hiarrachtaí breise? Tá a fhios againn go bhfuil fadhb ann le roinnt mhaith blianta. An féidir tuairim a thabhairt ar na hiarrachtaí breise, an líon daoine atá ag teacht tríd an gcóras sin anois agus cé chomh luath is a bheidh muid ag súil le daoine cáilithe a bheith ar fáil do na scoileanna? Táim ag caint faoin pipeline. An mó duine atá ann faoin tráth seo? An bhfuil an t-éileamh sin go léir á líonadh? Braithim in áiteanna nach bhfuil. Caithfimid a chinntiú go mbeidís ar fáil do na scoileanna éagsúla Gaeltachta.

Deputy Norma Foley

Ó thaobh an 10%, tá an ceart ag an Teachta. Tá an scéim sin ann le tamall, gan dabht. However, there are other things. That is just one. I just gave that as an example. The bachelor of education through Irish is a significant investment by the Department and we have doubled the places there. Equally, there is the provision for the masters through Irish. This would be Ms Fannin’s section within the Department. B’fhéidir go bhfuil tuilleadh eolais aici.

Ms Jill Fannin

That is right. The 10% for the Gaeltacht entry stream into the bachelor of education at primary level has been there for quite a while. Obviously students from the Gaeltacht, by their own merits, do not always need to avail of that scheme. The bachelor of education through Irish is a relatively newer development which stems from the Gaeltacht education policy. This is the fifth year of intake and there are now extra numbers, as the Minister referenced. That is at primary level too. The master of education through Irish is a separate piece and that is also going into its fifth year. I am looking towards Ms Nic Dhoinnléibhe, who probably knows the detail a bit better.

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe

Tá na figiúirí agamsa agus b’fhéidir go dtabharfaidh mé iad sin. I dtaobh an baitsiléir san oideachas, seo an chéad bhliain gur shroich na mic léinn sin an ceathrú bliain. Sin an chéad chohórt. Beidh 34 mac léinn ag teacht isteach sa chóras atá tar éis an oideachas a dhéanamh go huile agus go hiomlán trí Ghaeilge.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Sin in Marino, an ea?

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe

In Institiúid Oideachais Marino. Tá sé saor in aisce. Cuireann muidne an t-airgead go léir ar fáil don chúrsa sin. Tá 34 ag teacht amach agus bhí ar gach uile dhuine acu siúd an cleachtadh múinteoireachta a dhéanamh sa Ghaeltacht so tá taithí acu i gcomhthéacs na Gaeltachta go háirithe. Mar a luaigh an tAire, de bharr go bhfuil dúshláin ar leith ann i dtaobh soláthar múinteoirí, tá 30 áit sa bhreis ann i mbliana. Beidh 60 mac léinn ag tosú in 2023-24 ach ní fheicfidh tú iad sin sa chóras go ceann ceithre bliana de bharr gur cúrsa ceithre bliana atá i gceist. Luaigh Jill Fannin an mháistreacht san oideachas. De ghnáth bíonn thart ar 30 ag dul isteach ansin agus cuireann sé feabhas ar an nGaeilge agus ar an muinín.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Maidir leis an bpíblíne, an é 34 a bheidh ann gach bliain as seo ar feadh trí nó ceithre bliana?

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe

Braitheann sé ar an mbliain. Tugann muidne tacaíocht airgid do 30 agus ansin uaireanta tógann Institiúid Oideachais Marino breis daoine isteach ar an gcúrsa ach bíonn sé níos mó ná 30 gach uile bhliain. Gach uile bhliain beidh an méid sin ann, go dtí ceithre bliana ón mbliain seo ar aghaidh agus ansin beidh 60 ag teacht amach i gceann ceithre bliana.

An dara rud ná an máistir gairmiúil san oideachas, MGO, i nGaillimh. Bíonn beirt curtha ar fáil, ar iasacht, chun cur leis na huimhreacha san MGO agus táimid ag leanúint leis an tacaíocht sin an méid gur féidir. Tá tacaíocht sa bhreis á cur ar fáil ag COGG chun daoine a mhealladh. Sin ceann de na ceisteanna – conas ar féidir linn daoine a mhealladh isteach sa chóras lán-Ghaeilge agus daoine leis an nGaeilge a mhealladh. Tá COGG ag cur sparánachtaí ar fáil do gach uile mhac léinn ar an MGO ón mbliain seo ar aghaidh. Le cúnamh Dé, meallfaidh sé sin tuilleadh daoine le teacht isteach san MGO féin chun freastal ar an éileamh nó ar an ngá le múinteoirí ag leibhéal na hiar-bhunscoile.

Deputy Norma Foley

Bhain an dara ceist leis an straitéis atá againn. There are a number of aspects to that. It is práinneach. It is urgent agus táimid ag déanamh gach iarrachta chun é sin a chur chun cinn go tapa ach tá sé casta. For example, the Gaeltacht education policy has been completed. The next one we are working on is the Irish-medium policy outside the Gaeltacht. That will all be intrinsic to the overall strategy. That is being worked on. There are other elements as well, such as the implementation and expansion of the CLIL pilot project, as I referenced earlier, the delivery of the new primary language curriculum, the delivery of the new specifications in Irish at junior cycle and the upgrading and continuation of supports for the professional development service for teachers, PDST, for COGG and for the junior cycle for teachers, JCT, service and all of that. There is a phenomenal amount of work going on and I hear what the Deputy is saying about moving it as quickly as we possibly can.

The second policy I referenced there is the policy for Irish-medium education outside of the Gaeltacht. We are anticipating that for September 2024. If it is within our power to do it faster and better than that, we will do it. I said this earlier but there has been a phenomenal engagement with it. More than 10,000 people engaged in this process. That in itself demands considerable time and work to analyse, out of respect, the thoughts and views that were expressed. It speaks very positively of the willingness for people to engage. We will move it as quickly as we can. It is urgent and a priority and it is important. Within our own Department, even coming out of the earlier Gaeltacht education policy, we now have a dedicated unit within our Department for Gaeltacht education. We are committed to moving things along. I hear what the Deputy is saying about moving them as quickly as we possibly can and I give him an undertaking that that is our absolute intention.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Maidir leis an ardteistiméireacht-----

Deputy Norma Foley

About páipéar 1.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Tá sé sin curtha siar ar feadh bliana. Dhéanfadh sé ciall an straitéis a bheith ag an Aire sula mbogfadh sí ar aghaidh le cinneadh mar gheall ar an ardteistiméireacht.

An bhfuil sé in aigne é sin a chur siar ar feadh tamall eile, é a stop ar fad, nó b’fhéidir an straitéis a tharraingt isteach níos luaithe?

Deputy Norma Foley

Tuigim an méid atá á rá ag an Teachta. We are also moving ahead with senior cycle reform at the same time. However, I hear what he is saying in terms of an overall strategy. We have two wings of the overall strategy well under way at this time. It will take us time to get the overall picture but we are a good way towards it. We have committed to giving further consideration to the paper 1s. I cannot give the Deputy a timeframe there and I do not want to mislead him on it. I hear his view that it would be part of the overall vision but we must also move ahead with senior cycle reform as well.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire. It has been touched on by Deputy Connolly that in 2020, 4,723 pupils left sixth class in Irish-medium primary schools but only 1,688 of those continued into Irish-medium secondary schools. This means the majority, that is, 2,456 pupils, had to go on to English-speaking schools. This clearly is a huge cliff edge for those who want to continue their education through Irish. That issue is a nationwide issue. That cliff edge occurs right across the country but it is highlighted for me in my own area of Dublin Bay South, that is Dublin 2, 4, 6 and 8, where there are 20 English-language secondary schools but there are no secondary schools working through the medium of Irish in those areas. To highlight this, there are six primary schools in Dublin 2, 4, 6 and 8 but there are no Gaelcholáistí. Where are those students going to continue their education? Due to Coláiste Synge which is not too far from here, I hear young children speaking Irish in Kevin Street, in the Iveagh Trust buildings and in the flats at O'Carroll Villas and Mercier House. These are young children of seven and eight years of age. I had never heard that before and it is absolutely fantastic. I can tell the committee that these children are not going to travel and continue to go to Rathfarnham to secondary school which is what I understand is being proposed. We need a secondary school in Dublin 2, 4, 6, and 8 that can service those young students. Catherine Clinch who stared in the Oscar-nominated Irish-language film "An Cailín Ciúin" attends one of these Irish-medium primary schools and she and her classmates will have to continue their education in English unless there is a secondary school in the area. They are not all going to be able to travel the distances required to attain an Irish-medium school. What is the logic for refusing to put in a Gaelcholáiste in Dublin 2, 4, 6 and 8? The numbers are there. The Minister mentioned earlier that only 400 students are needed to establish a school. I imagine out of those Dublin 2, 4, 6 and 8 areas, there would be 400 students, or close to that number anyway. What are the obstacles the Minister sees? Going to Rathfarnham or Coláiste Íosagáin or Coláiste Eoin is not going to happen for many of the students living in the inner city and it is a huge obstacle. As I say, it is great to hear so many young kids from the inner city speaking Irish. It is a shame that we cannot see beyond the numbers and the statistics and look at what impact it is having on communities in the inner city.

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Deputy. The Department wants to support the establishment and the development of the Gaelcholáistí. In fact, and I mentioned it earlier, it is significant to say that since 2019 there have been 47 schools coming from the Irish-language medium established. As the Deputy has referenced, we are giving particular concession to the establishment of Gaelcholáistí in terms of the reduction of the requirement to 400 pupils as opposed to between 600 and 1,000. Notwithstanding that, he specifically raised Dublin 2, 4, 6 and 8. I am very conscious of it. I have met with representatives and I know their absolute determination. I agree 100% with the Deputy on how fantastic it is to hear young people speaking as Gaeilge and being very happy to do it. I hear what he is saying. There are three schools there, namely, Coláiste Eoin, Coláiste Íosagáin, and Gaelcholáiste an Phiarsaigh. I will go back to what the Deputy said in that this will not meet the demand, but regarding Coláiste Eoin and Coláiste Íosagáin, the patronage there has agreed to the technical assessments there to ensure there may well be potential to make additional availability for places there. My understanding is that there is availability of places in Gaelcholáiste an Phiarsaigh. Notwithstanding that, it is also very interesting to point out that in terms of the Irish-medium schools we have, both primary and post-primary, there is a 70% occupancy in those schools. Therefore, there is availability of places in many of the Gaelscoileanna and Gaelcholáistí which we have. However, in terms of the new schools that would be coming on stream, there has been no determination in Dublin 2 and 4 in terms of patronage or language medium or whatever. We have two representatives here from the planning and building unit and maybe Ms Fidelma Lyons or Mr. Murty Hanly could come in from the planning and building side of things. I want to be clear that we are very committed to doing it but we must ensure there is the need for it.

Ms Fidelma Lyons

I will touch on how we do things from a national perspective first and will then hone in on south Dublin thereafter. We are establishing schools in areas of demographic growth because we need to make sure the capital resources go into making sure every child has access to a school place. In the context of new school provision, there has been announcements on the establishment of 47 new schools from 2019, and in the patronage process that determines the patronage and the language of those new schools, whether they be English- or Irish-medium, affords particular consideration to Gaelscoileanna, Gaelcholáistí and aonaid lán-Ghaeilge as well. As the Minister has mentioned, there is a lower thresholding while looking at Irish-medium provision that it be 400 rather than up at the 600- or 1,000-pupil level. Also a potential outcome from the patronage process for new schools is the establishment of aonaid lán-Ghaeilge. Any patron can also come to the Department and make an application for any English-medium post-primary school to establish an aonad in that school and that is something the Department would look at.

The patronage process which is run for new schools takes into account parental preferences for patronage but also for language between English and Irish. It also takes into account existing provision in the area, particularly regarding diversity and what is already available there in terms of the Irish language. It is out of that process that Irish-medium schools are established. As the Minister mentioned, regarding Irish-medium schools nationwide, we know that over 70% of the Gaelcholáistí are undersubscribed. Therefore, they could have taken in additional children. We know that 88% of Irish-medium schools are not oversubscribed. We know from looking at our figures by a per-county basis, we can see and look at each undersubscribed Gaelcholáiste around the country and at the Gaelscoileanna that are within 5 km of that Gaelcholáiste. We can look at the sixth-class output from those Gaelscoileanna into the Gaelcholáiste to see how many of those sixth-class pupils who had this Irish-medium post-primary school within 5 km actually went there. It is surprising that in some cases the number is quite low. We have those figures as well. We know that even though there might be availability of an Irish-medium post-primary option, sometimes parents do not avail of that for their children at post-primary level for whatever reason. That is the position in terms of the national picture.

In terms of moving into Dublin 2, 4, 6 and 8, when we are looking at Irish-medium provision there, we look at the school planning areas there. We look at provision based on school planning areas and the number of school planning areas within south Dublin, we look overall at the Gaelscoileanna, and then we look at the availability of the Gaelcholáistí within that particular area.

As the Minister mentioned, there are three Gaelcholáistí, which I am sure the Deputy will be aware of - Coláiste Eoin, Coláiste Íosagáin and Gaelcholáiste an Phiarsaigh - in the area. We have been keeping the output from the Gaelscoileanna and the supply from the Gaelcholáistí under review. Gaelcholáiste an Phiarsaigh has reported in its returns, which every school is required to do each year, that it could have taken in additional first year students. While Coláiste Eoin and Coláiste Íosagáin are at capacity, we know that Gaelcholáiste an Phiarsaigh could have done that. There is overall supply notwithstanding what the Deputy said in terms of location.

We are looking at the output, including the future output, from the Gaelscoileanna in the area and the Irish-medium stream in Synge Street, which will have sixth class output in time. We are looking at keeping it under review, particularly as a number of additional Gaelscoileanna have been established in recent years and they do not yet have an output of sixth class students. We are looking at that as well. Options are available in terms of how we might provide for that additional need. The numbers may not be at the level required for the establishment of an additional Gaelcholáiste. We have been looking at what might be possible for Coláiste Eoin and Coláiste Íosagáin, as the Minister said in terms of exploring possibilities there, doing a technical assessment and arranging for that.

There are also other options for English-medium post-primary schools in the area with the potential to establish aonaid in them. We know this would be possible in one school, in particular, near Harold's Cross. That would be possible there if it is needed. We have been looking at how we might cater for that level of demand when it materialises. Looking at south Dublin at the minute, overall there are sufficient places and there were places that were not taken up by parents for their children this year.

Deputy Chris Andrews

I thank Ms Lyons for that. Clearly, Coláiste Íosagáin and Coláiste Eoin are at capacity. Rathfarnham is not realistic, to expect young children to travel. The Government talks about a 15-minute city and everything being within a 15-minute journey. If you expect young children to travel, they are not going to get to Rathfarnham in 15 minutes. Even in Rathfarnham, it is hard to get through Rathfarnham in 15 minutes particularly during winter when the weather is miserable. To expect young families to make their way to Rathfarnham is not realistic. I appreciate what the Minister has said but when you see six Gaelscoileanna in Dublin 2, 4, 6 and 8 and no Gaelcholáiste, it does not seem to make sense. I have heard the point made that we have spare capacity. Am I correct in saying the Minister has said the figures are not there to fill a Gaelcholáiste if one were to be established? In addition, if there were to be a new patronage of a secondary school, would the Minister consider a Gaelcholáiste for that new patronage?

Deputy Norma Foley

I hear the Deputy's absolute enthusiasm and I utterly accept his bona fides, as I do those of the parents. There are some very impressive people here, including parents and those from the schools themselves, who are advocating very strongly. I do not take that for granted at all. Where it is possible, and we have consistently said we are keeping this under active review, I want this to work out to everybody's mutual benefit. We are actively keeping it under review. If the threshold of 400 is not reached, for example, we are saying that there are opportunities for an aonad. I know that is not everybody's preference, but any English-medium school can open an aonad. I know from my own experience that many a Gaelcholáiste actually started as an aonad. I have personal experience of that. There are opportunities there. Again, I am not saying that it is everybody's first preference but it is a very good preference to be able to grow to reach 400.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Is the Minister saying that the number of 400 is not there yet?

Deputy Norma Foley

What is showing to us at present in terms of the three schools mentioned is that there is capacity in one of them. A full class could have been made up. I believe it is somewhere in the region of 30 places. Is that right?

Ms Fidelma Lyons

Yes.

Deputy Norma Foley

In excess of 30 places were available in one school. The other two schools are undergoing technical assessment. I acknowledge the patron for agreeing to do that, that is, to see what the scope is going forward. We will see what will come out of that and what the potential is in terms of reaching 400. If 400 has not been reached, there is the option of the aonad. It is not as if we are not looking at all the options. As Ms Lyons said, some of the schools referred to are not at the put-through level yet of having sixth class young people. However, when they do have a sixth class, that will be another cohort of students who need to be catered for and another body of people who can be added to the mix. We are not walking away from this in any shape or form. We will do all we can to meet the needs that are there. I acknowledge the enthusiasm and goodwill that is there to establish the school.

In the greater scheme of things - I am going to say this to the Deputy straight up - if I had capacity to do it, I would want to see a Gaelcholáiste everywhere accessible to everyone. Being realistic, that will take us some time but that is the ambition of the Department and the policies with which we are engaging and the resources we are putting in, be it for teachers or growing the language or whatever. That is the absolute ambition. It is going to take us time to get there. I appreciate what the Deputy has said and we will continue to keep him informed on how we are keeping it under review.

Deputy Chris Andrews

But the 400 is not there yet.

Deputy Norma Foley

We are saying there is capacity in the schools that are there presently. I hear what the Deputy is saying, that is, from a location point of view, it is not the preferred location. I hear what he is saying.

Deputy Chris Andrews

It is not realistic, never mind preferred.

Deputy Norma Foley

I hear that as well.

Ms Fidelma Lyons

I will answer the Deputy's second question. He asked about the establishment of the new post-primary schools that were announced. In regard to the new post-primary school for Sallynoggin, Killiney and Cherrywood and the school that was announced for Dublin 24, the patronage process has yet to be run for those schools. No decisions have been taken yet in terms of year of establishment, patronage or language of the two new schools that were announced. I just wanted to mention that.

An Cathaoirleach

As an 47 scoil nua ó 2019, ní Gaelscoileanna iad ar fad. Níl sé curtha i láthair go dtí seo. Is amhlaidh go bhfuil 47 Gaelscoil nua ann. Don taifead, tá 47 bunscoil Bhéarla agus Ghaeilge i gceist. Cé mhéad acu atá ina nGaelscoileanna?

Mr. Murty Hanly

Since 2019, some 47 new schools have been established. That is correct. Since that time, the policy has been that where two primary schools are being established, one would be a pre-designated Gaelscoil. There were five pre-designated Gaelscoileanna as part of the announcement, in 2018, of 42 new schools. I think there were three Gaelcholáistí included in that as well. In total I think there were seven. The policy going forward is that if there are two schools being announced for an area, one will be designated as Irish-medium school. In addition, if a new educational process is being carried out and there is no Gaelscoil in that school planning area, it would be pre-designated also. Am I correct in saying that?

Ms Fidelma Lyons

At primary level.

Mr. Murty Hanly

Yes, at primary level.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Tá 47 scoil nua ann.

Mr. Murty Hanly

Yes, there are 47 new schools across the country.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

As an méid sin, cé mhéad bunscoil agus iar-bhunscoil Ghaeilge atá i gceist?

Mr. Murty Hanly

There were five primary schools.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Five agus?

Mr. Murty Hanly

And three.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Ocht gcinn as 47.

Mr. Murty Hanly

Yes.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Okay.

Mr. Murty Hanly

I will just confirm that.

Deputy Norma Foley

They were pre-designated.

That is what Mr. Hanly is saying, is it not?

Mr. Murty Hanly

The primary school ones are pre-designated.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. Tá an plé seo thar a bheith spéisiúil. Ag éisteacht go cúramach, breathnaíonn sé go bhfuil an dá pholasaí mhór ag teacht salach ar a chéile. Deireann an straitéis 20 bliain don Ghaeilge:

Cuirfear oideachas lán-Ghaeilge ar ardchaighdeán ar fáil do dhaltaí scoile arb é mian a dtuismitheoirí/gcaomhnóirí é. Leanfar leis an tacaíocht do ghaelscoileanna ag leibhéal na bunscoile agus déanfar forbairt ar sholáthar lán-Ghaeilge ag leibhéal na hiarbhunscoile chun freastal ar éileamh de réir mar is gá.

Is polasaí an-soiléir a bhí aontaithe leis an Roinn Oideachais agus Scileanna sa bhliain 2010 é sin. Réitíodh an straitéis mar a réitíodh í le go mbeadh na Ranna éagsúla páirteach sa straitéis chun nach bhféadfaidís a rá go ndúirt duine neamhspleách na rudaí atá inti agus nach n-aontaíonn an Roinn leo. D'aontaigh an Roinn leis an straitéis. Anois, tá sé ráite linn tráthnóna - tá sé thar a bheith úsáideach an tuiscint seo a fháil - nach bhfuil aon pholasaí mar sin ann i ndáiríre. Is polasaí bunaithe ar dhéimeagrafaic amháin atá i gceist. San áit ina bhfuil dóthain scoileanna, fiú mura bhfuil aon soláthar Gaelscoileanna ann, níl aon pholasaí deimhnithe maidir leis an gcaoi ina dhéanfar freastal ar an riachtanas do Ghaelscolaíocht.

Is sampla iontach é an ceantar a luadh, Baile Átha Cliath 2, 4, 6 agus 8. Is scoil amháin iad Coláiste Íosagáin agus Coláiste Eoin i ndáiríre. Is scoil cailíní taobh le scoil buachaillí atá i gceist. Ag an am nuair a bunaíodh é, bhí sé nua-aimseartha go mbeadh na cailíní agus na buachaillí taobh le taobh. Ar ndóigh, dá mbeadh sé á bunú inniu, is scoil amháin a bheadh ann. Roinneann an dá choláiste múinteoirí agus acmhainní agus tá siad ar champas amháin. Tá sé sin lán. Mar dhuine a tógadh in D4 agus a chuaigh ar scoil i gCnoc Mhuirfean, mar ní raibh aon Choláiste Eoin ag an am, táim ag rá leis an Aire nach féidir fáil amach go Ráth Fearnáin ná ar ais. Níl aon bhus ag dul an bealach sin. Bheadh sé sách fada le rothaíocht freisin. Tá a fhios agam go raibh muidne thar a bheith eisceachtúil ag fás aníos toisc go raibh muid ag dul chomh fada sin i mBaile Átha Cliath le dul ag an scoil. Admhaím go dtéann gasúir thuaithe i bhfad níos faide ag an scoil ach ní mar an gcéanna cathair agus tuath. Caithfimid é sin a thuiscint.

Sa dúiche gurb as mé, tá scoileanna as éadan. Níl mé chun iad a liostáil amach anseo. Tá scoileanna do chailíní agus buachaillí timpeall na háite sin. Mar sin, tá sé deacair a rá le gasúir go gcaithfidh siad dul i bhfad ó bhaile le dul ag an scoil ach, má tá siad ag iarraidh oideachas trí Bhéarla, go bhfuil sé ar fáil acu díreach síos an bóthar. Mar sin, tá ceist shonrach agam. Luaigh an tAire go bhfuil go leor gasúir ag dul ar bhunscoileanna lán-Ghaeilge nach bhfuil ag dul ar iar-bhunscoileanna lán-Ghaeilge, agus creidim go bhfuil an ceart aici. Is í an cheist atá agam ná, an athraíonn an coibhneas ó thaobh daoine ó na Gaelscoileanna a théann ag an meánscoil lán-Ghaeilge de réir chomh fada is atá an Ghaelscoil agus an iar-bhunscoil scartha óna chéile? An dtuigeann an tAire an rud atá á rá agam? Má tá cluster mór Gaelscoileanna in áit amháin agus má tá iar-bhunscoil atá i bhfad níos faide ó chuid de na scoileanna ná ó chuid eile, an dtéann níos lú de na gasúir atá ag na scoileanna i bhfad amach ag an nGaelscoil lárnach mar go bhfuil an t-aistear rófhada? B'fhéidir go bhfuil sé éasca go maith dul ag an mbunscoil agus go mbeadh an-stró ar na gasúir sin dul ag an meánscoil agus nach mbeidís lena gcairde má dhéanann siad é sin. Feictear dom nach féidir é sin a chur as an áireamh má bhíonn tú ag scrúdú na ceiste seo. Tá sé éasca breathnú ar fhigiúirí ach caithfidh tú breathnú taobh thiar de na figiúirí agus fáil amach cén fáth go bhfuil rud ag tarlú.

I gcás Bhaile Átha Cliath, an áit is mó a bhfuil eolas orm uirthi taobh amuigh den cheantar tuaithe ina bhfuil mé, caithfidh tú breathnú ar threo na mbusanna, ar na háiteanna sa gcathair a bhfuil traenacha ag dul chucu agus ar cá bhfuil an t-iompar poiblí. Ní féidir le chuile thuismitheoir an carr a thógáil go dtí an scoil. Bheadh an tAire, an Teachta Eamon Ryan, ar buile. Mar sin, má tá daoine ag dul píosa ó bhaile le dul ar an scoil, caithfidh go mbeadh bus ag dul ó áit amháin go háit eile.

Shoiléirigh na finnéithe an pointe a bhí agam maidir le cé mhéad bunscoil agus Gaelscoil atá bunaithe. Tá áthas orm go bhfuil an plean nua seo le foilsiú an bhliain seo chugainn. Is dóigh go mbeidh sé ina chuidiú ollmhór. An mbeidh polasaí sonrach á fhorbairt maidir le bunú Gaelscoileanna agus iar-bhunscoileanna lán-Ghaelach istigh sa bplean nua nó sa bpolasaí nua um oideachas lán-Ghaeilge an bhliain seo chugainn? An mbreathnófar as an nua ar fad ar fhachtóirí taobh amuigh de na déimeagrafaic maidir le bunú Gaelscoileanna mar chuid den pholasaí seo? Faoi láthair, tá sé fíor le rá go bhfuil na Gaelscoileanna i gcóras iomaíoch le scoileanna Béarla agus go roghnaítear an Béarla an chuid is mó den am. Tá rudaí beaga déanta chun é a chothromú beagáinín, ach is léir nach bhfuil sé ag freastal ar an méid a bhí ráite sa straitéis 20 bliain don Ghaeilge i ndáiríre. Go simplí, ní dhéanfaidh próiseas atá bunaithe ar fhás daonra amháin freastal ar riachtanais forbartha oideachas lán-Ghaeilge.

Bogfaidh mé go dtí an chéad rud eile gur mhaith liom a thógáil. Creidim féin go pearsanta go mba cheart go mbeadh naíolann agus naíonra ceangailte do chuile bhunscoil sa tír agus iad á rith ag an Stát ach fágfaimid é sin ar leataobh inniu. An mbeidh sé mar chuid den pholasaí nua maidir le cúrsaí oideachais trí Ghaeilge go mbeidh naíonra ceangailte le chuile bhunscoil lan-Ghaelach, chomh fada agus is féidir? Táimid ag feiceáil níos mó agus níos mó go bhfuil tarraingt ag scoileanna a bhfuil naíonraí agus naíolanna ceangailte leo. Is í an cheist atá agam ná, an mbeidh sé sin istigh sa bpolasaí nó an mbeidh an Roinn á thógáil san áireamh don pholasaí sin?

Tá an tAire anseo píosa fada. Ní choinneoidh mise í le moill bhreise ach tá moladh amháin eile gur mhaith liom a dhéanamh. Tá riar maith meánscoileanna Gaeltachta agus lán-Ghaelach faoi chúram education and training boards, ETBs, ach tá na scoileanna lán-Ghaelach mar mhionlach taobh istigh de Bhord Oideachais agus Oiliúna na Gaillimhe agus Ros Comáin. An smaoineodh an tAire ar ETB amháin a bhunú a dhéanfadh freastal ar bhunscoileanna agus meánscoileanna a thagann faoin gcóras ETB? Níl mé ag caint ar scoileanna deonacha anois ach ar scoileanna scaipthe ar fud na tíre atá faoi ETBs cheana féin. An fáth leis sin ná go bhféadfadh an ETB ansin a gcuid gnó leis an Roinn a dhéanamh trí Ghaeilge ar son chuile dhuine.

Bheadh sé i bhfad níos éasca ag an Roinn seirbhísí trí Ghaeilge a chur ar fáil don ETB sin. Bheadh an ETB ag plé leis na scoileanna trí Ghaeilge seachas an rud atá ag tarlú i láthair na huaire, áit a bhfuil an ETB, sa gcuid is mó, ag plé leis na scoileanna i mBéarla mar nach bhfuil aon Ghaeilge ag formhór na ndaoine atá fostaithe ag na ETBs ar fud na tíre. Bheadh sé éasca go maith é seo a dhéanamh, is é sin go mbeadh na ETBs réigiúnach ann mar atá, ach i dtaobh na Gaelscolaíochta sa bhunscoil, agus cé go bhfuil roinnt ETBs a bhfuil bunscoileanna acu chomh maith le meánscoileanna anois, sna cásanna sin ar fad gur scoil lán-Ghaelach atá ann, ba cheart go dtiocfadh sé faoin ETB nua lán-Ghaelach. Chuirfeadh sé sin téagar agus láidreacht i bhforbairt pholasaí do na scoileanna sin agus ó thaobh soláthar seirbhísí agus tacaíochtaí do scoileanna.

Deputy Norma Foley

Ó thaobh an ETB de, tá an méid a dúirt an Teachta an-suimiúil agus tarlaíonn sé in áiteanna. Mar shampla, i gCiarraí, tá an Gaelcholáiste ann agus tá an ETB i bhfeighil, agus tá na Gaelscoileanna ann agus an ETB atá i bhfeighil freisin. There may well be potential in what the Deputy is saying but he will be conscious as he already referenced it, that we are looking at that policy. To go back to the previous point the Deputy raised, the policy on Irish medium education outside the Gaeltacht is also looking at how we can explore opportunities and what methods we can introduce to strengthen the establishment of Gaelscoileanna, Gaelcholáistí and the aonaid lán-Ghaeilge. The aonad does not always get the best press but we have seen it worked and I have referenced what I have seen in my county. The Gaelcholáiste we have presently started out as an aonad, but that is neither here nor there. There are opportunities here, including the suggestion the Deputy has made around the ETBs. The overall policy will be looked at in terms of what mechanisms and strengths there are and that is an idea in that regard.

I understand the logic of the Deputy's point on the naíonraí. If we have the naíonra, that will progress them onto the next stage and so on. Again, that may well be part of the eventual deliberation of the policy because the policy is specifically looking at what mechanisms we can introduce to grow the future establishment of the Gaelscoil or the Gaelcholáiste. What was the other point the Deputy made?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Bogadh a bheith bunaithe ar déimeagrafaíocht agus a bheith bunaithe ar an straitéis.

Deputy Norma Foley

Everything must be bunaithe ar na demographics. It is as if I am referring everything to this policy but the policy is looking in its broadest sense and the demographics are undoubtedly important mar tá gá orainn a bheith praiticiúil. As I have said earlier, tá sé mar aidhm againne seans a thabhairt do na daltaí dul ar scoil idir Bhéarla agus Gaeilge agus go mbeadh seans acu go mbeadh an scoil sin ar fáil cóngarach to where they are living. That is the overall aim we have but we have to build upon it and take it step by step. We would not just look at demographics, rather there is an opportunity within the formation of this new policy that we will look at all aspects, including demographics for the future establishment of schools. At the minute we have to be sure there is a an opening for the school. That is why we are telling people that about what will happen if the 400 are not there or if it is a thing that the location is not appropriate, and I understand that nobody wants to be caught in a gridlock. Another Deputy raised the issue of people having to travel too far and I understand that. It is for that reason that we are asking people if they would consider the aonad lán-Ghaeilge as a first step and that we would then grow the aonad. To cut a long story short, all the points the Deputy has raised will be focused on in this new policy and we have an opportunity to look at all the points he has raised.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Tá ceistín beag eile agam. Mar is eol don Aire, tá ceantair áirithe cathracha ann. Sílim go bhfuil Cluain Dolcáin ar cheann acu, tá ceantar Naithí i mBaile Átha Cliath agus tá ceantair eile. Tá siad ainmnithe ag an Roinn Turasóireachta, Cultúir, Ealaíon, Gaeltachta, Spóirt agus-----

An Cathaoirleach

Meán agus pé rud eile atá agat.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

-----Meán ach tabhairfimid Roinn na Gaeltachta air. Tá siad ainmnithe ag Roinn na Gaeltachta mar cheantair speisialta leis an teanga a fhorbairt iontu. An mbeidh an Roinn Oideachais ag plé leo sin? Ceann de na rudaí a bhí lárnach don choincheap sin, nuair a tosaíodh é, ná go mbeadh naíolann, naíonra, bunscoil, meánscoil, iarchúram scoile, clubanna, imeachtaí agus chuile chineál rud ar fáil agus ar bun trí Ghaeilge agus go ndéanfaí pobal Gaeilge a fhorbairt. An mbeidh plé faoi leith á dhéanamh maidir leis na ceantair sin le cinntiú go mbeadh na tacaíochtaí oideachais trí Ghaeilge ar fáil sna ceantair sin atá ainmnithe ag an Roinn, ón naíonra suas go dtí deireadh na meánscoile?

Deputy Norma Foley

Tá an ceart ag an Teachta agus tá an ceangal ann idir an Roinn sin agus mo Roinn. Bhuail mé leis an Aire ó thaobh an pholasaí a bheith againn agus chun an polasaí a chur chun cinn. I have spoken to the Minister on how we can be mutually supportive in what we can do. I should have said about the question of the naíonra and so on, that it falls within the remit of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth but we are also engaging with it as part of this policy. It is a policy from early years right through so it is working on that space in what mechanisms and supports can be put in place there. I see the benefit for any school of having a childcare facility or naíonra close to it. I particularly see the benefit of it in rural schools and it has been an inordinate blessing to many rural schools that they have a stream of potential children coming forward. We have engaged with the Minister for the Gaeltacht and the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth on the whole thing.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Mar a dúirt mé, aontaím leis an Aire go hiomlán. Tá súil agam go dtiocfaidh an lá go mbeidh naíonra agus naíolann ceangailte le chuile scoil. Is é an rud ciallmhar é do thuismitheoirí agus déanann sé ciall. Feicim go leor scoileanna tuaithe atá á dhéanamh cheana féin, agus iad siúd atá á dhéanamh, tá siad ag fás mar tá na tuismitheoirí in ann na gasúir a fhágáil sa scoil nó, b'fhéidir, i gcás amháin, i sean teach an tsagairt atá a úsáid mar naíolann, ach sin ceist eile. Tagann an scéim early childhood care and education, ECCE, faoin Aire agus faoin Roinn Oideachais, agus tagann naíolanna faoin Roinn Leanaí, Comhionannais, Míchumais, Lánpháirtíochta agus Óige. The crèche comes under the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth agus tagann an ECCE faoin Roinn Oideachais.

Deputy Norma Foley

We are saying there has to be joined-up thinking.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Sin an fhadhb atá ag Rialtais de chuile shórt atá ceangailte lena chéile. Níl aon rud ceangailte, mar is eol don Aire.

Deputy Norma Foley

It happens where you have the naíonra agus there might be spás sa scoil in a seomra or whatever. That works well but then it becomes an-deacair ar fad nuair a bhíonn an spás nó an seomra sin ag teastáil mar tá na scoil ag dul chun cinn and the space is eventually needed. That can be problematic, but where it is possible, schools have been accommodating in offering the space and making it possible.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Sa chás sin, scata bíonn nós ann cúiseanna a fhógairt a chiallaíonn nach féidir dul ar aghaidh mar go mb'fhéidir go dtarlóidh rud éicint. Tarlaíonn sé agus gheofar réiteach air. Feicim leis na scoileanna áitiúla thart orm, má tá spás ann beidh leo, ach tagann fás agus forás ar an scoil agus bíonn spás breise ag teastáil.

Is é an Stát a bheidh ag íoc as ar aon chaoi. Tá súil agam go dtógfaidh sé dearcadh praiticiúil faoi seo. Táim cinnte go dtógfaidh an tAire a leithéid de dhearcadh ach cé a thiocfaidh ina diaidh? Ní bheidh sí ann go brách. Caithfimid a bheith praiticiúil faoi rudaí. Is é an rud atá ag coinneáil siar an tír seo faoi láthair ná go bhfuil muid ag iarraidh go mbeadh gach rud 100% slán, ní amháin anois ach don todhchaí. Níl tada sa saol seo slán don todhchaí. Tá sé sin feicthe agam i mo shaol. Cé a cheapfadh riamh go dtiocfaidh an lá nach mbeadh bainc le hairgead i ngach aon sráidbhaile agus baile beag in Éirinn?

An Cathaoirleach

Is ábhar lae eile é seo.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Is ábhar lae eile é agus is é an pointe atá agam ná go mbeadh sé dearfach dá ligfeadh an tAire do scoileanna naíonraí a chur isteach i seomraí atá le cois agus atá réasúnta scaoilte seachas foirgnimh a thógáil as an nua ar fhaitíos go mbeadh an seomra ag teastáil ag an scoil arís amach anseo.

Deputy Norma Foley

Tuigim an méid atá á rá ag an Teachta. I understand what he is saying. Throughout the country there are very good examples of naíonraí being accommodated within schools. Many schools are taking a very practical approach in that respect but there can be difficulties down the line if something does arise. We meet every case on an individual basis and take things step by step.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I thank the Chair for allowing me in to ask questions today. It is very much appreciated. I want to go back to something discussed earlier. I do not want to put too much pressure on Ms Lyons but I cannot leave without asking this question. I ask it in a dual role, both as a parent of a child who has gone through a Gaelscoil before moving on to an English-medium secondary school and as the parent of another two who are in the process of going through the same school and who will most likely also move on to an English-medium secondary school. In that respect and based on the information Ms Lyons gave Deputy Andrews, has the Department had a chance to look at Mullingar? We have two Gaelscoileanna. We have not had a new secondary school built within the town in my lifetime. Of the two Gaelscoileanna that are there, one is quite newly constructed. It was in temporary accommodation. It is called Gaelscoil an Choillín. It got a new build a number of years ago. It is a very good and successful school that is definitely growing. We also have Gaelscoil an Mhuilinn, which has been there for a considerably longer length of time. I will again raise the issues that have been raised before. There is no Irish-medium secondary school for these students to progress to.

I will keep this brief. My second question relates to the area of the exemptions from studying the Irish language that are being provided to students. The statistics show that there was an increase of almost 24% in the number of exemptions provided between 2020 and 2021. In that one school year alone, there was an increase of 24%. However, the majority of those who are exempt from Irish opt to study another language, pointing to there being no educational aversion to language learning that would inhibit the study of Irish. It is more so an aversion to studying the Irish language. Has a situation now arisen that is almost of an exclusionary nature and in which those students who are struggling with the Irish language are simply opting for an exemption from it because the supports are not there to provide education to students that is appropriate to their abilities and needs?

I will go back to an issue Deputy Connolly raised, which is the issue of contact time. What is the Minister's response to an article in The Irish Times on comments by Professor Pádraig Ó Duibhir who described as insulting and Donald Trump-like the suggestion that spending less time with Irish would improve students' ability and who said that the evidence commissioned by the NCCA and what the Department inspectors have consistently been saying are being ignored time and again? I heard and understand what the Minister said about pressure on the curriculum but surely the best place for a younger person to be exposed to the Irish language, to gain a fundamental knowledge and appreciation of it and to have it embedded in his or her everyday world is somewhere he or she is five days a week, that is, in school.

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Deputy very much. I will take her last point first. The Deputy is right. I do not want to keep repeating myself but we have to have a curriculum that meets the demands of the day. There is absolutely no doubt about that. Extensive consultation was undertaken by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment. There was engagement with a wide range of stakeholders, including parents, students and everybody else. There was significant engagement with people. It was very clear that issues around wellness and social, personal and health education were very much to the fore and there had to be increased space for them within the curriculum. We are all conscious of the impact of Covid and the emphasis we now need to put on supporting children and young people. We all speak about that all of the time. We are making strides in that respect. We are introducing a pilot programme of counselling in our primary schools and so on. Notwithstanding that, other initiatives are required. To do that, we have had to look at every single subject area within the curriculum. There was not a single-minded determination to focus on Irish. It was right across the board. Everything has been impacted here.

With specific regard to Irish, at the junior stages - junior infants and senior infants, there is no change at all to the teaching of language 2. The timeframe is the same. There is a change in stages 2, 3 and 4, which run from first class to sixth class. There is a reduction of 30 minutes. Notwithstanding that, this thing called flexitime is being given back to the school. This means that a block of up to seven hours is made available to the schools. The teacher or the school makes a judgment and decides where students need additional support. If that need relates to the Irish language, the students get the time for the Irish language. If the need is elsewhere, they get the time in that area. There is something respectful of the professionalism of the school in recognising that teachers know best what level their students are at in a particular subject. We are giving that autonomy back to them.

With regard to the work of the NCCA, the NCCA is made up of people who come from all stakeholder backgrounds in education, including parents, teachers and anyone else who is needed. This reduction in time we are speaking of has been balanced out by the flexitime given back to the school. There is a considerable emphasis on this never being decided on the basis of what the children and young people are studying at a given time. If we take that narrow view of the language, we do not serve ourselves well. It has to be about much more. It has to be about the culture, the music and the heritage. All of that is happening within the school. Equally, there are other opportunities within the school. For example, there is the content and language integrated learning project whereby PE is being taught through Irish. We are looking at many different initiatives within the school. It is not just about this reduction of time but, again, in the interests of fairness, this is not unique to the Irish language.

With regard to the Deputy's reference to the exemptions, we have to acknowledge in the first instance that we have seen an enormous increase in the number of young people who are attending our schools who have additional needs. That is a very good thing. We want children and young people to have a place in school and to be supported there. If you are in a special class or a special school, you have an automatic exemption. By the end of 2023, we will have almost 3,000 special classes. There has been exponential growth in the provision of special classes over the past two years. That has added to the number of exemptions. There is no doubt about that.

We have also had an enormous increase in the number of children coming from abroad. More than 15,000 young people have come into the system from Ukraine alone. There is an exemption for those who have come from abroad who are aged 12 or who have completed their primary education. In some jurisdictions - Ukraine may be one of them - primary school is finished at an early age, perhaps ten years of age. Such children are automatically exempted. All of that is feeding into an increased number of exemptions. It is also fair to say there is a decrease in the number of exemptions at primary level. We have seen an increase in the number of exemptions at post-primary level but, as I have said, that is largely due to the number of students accessing exemptions from a special education point of view. The vast majority of exemptions are being given to students who are identified as having special educational needs.

The other question the Deputy raised related to Mullingar.

I will go back to the planning and building unit for that. That is what you call passing the buck.

Mr. Murty Hanly

Deputy Clarke is probably familiar with Mullingar.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Some of it, I would hope.

Mr. Murty Hanly

There are two fine Gaelscoileanna in Mullingar. They are fine schools. In general, on the decisions that are made around the establishment of post-primary schools and Gaelcholáistí, and the Minister referred to it earlier, we have to meet a certain demand figure of 400 pupils before we configure the opening of a Gaelcholáiste. As part of our work in analysing the demand for schools, for post-primary schools we look at the enrolment in primary school level, we look at inward migration and potential future developments in the area and we make an assessment into the future as to when a school may be established. As I said, the first trigger is 400 pupils for post-primary. When we look at Mullingar, similar to many other regional towns, there is a continuing demand for school places. In primary level one can see the demand is probably dropping off on a national level but in the urban areas of the likes of Mullingar and other regional towns, the demand is still strong at primary and that is pushing through to post-primary. However, the threshold for that 400 is just not there at the minute. We keep it under review and the option of an aonad is also still available to any town or any post-primary school.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Did any expression of interest for an aonad come from any of the schools in Mullingar?

Mr. Murty Hanly

Not that I am aware of.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Nor am I. It is not a trick question. I am not aware of one either.

Mr. Murty Hanly

Not that I am aware of but it is something that could definitely be explored. We need to reach the requirement of that threshold of 400 generally across the town first in order to establish a new school and then the demand coming from the parents who want an Irish-medium post-primary school. The aonad is possibly worth exploring.

An Cathaoirleach

Tá cúpla ceist agam. Maidir leis an 400 atáimid díreach tar éis a bheith ag caint faoi, tá sé beagáinín ró-ard i mo thuairim féin má táthar ag díriú ar bhaile cosúil leis an Muileann gCearr nó ceantair eile. Táimid ag caint faoi diúltú meánscolaíocht i nGaeilge do pháiste munar féidir teacht ar bhreis is 60 páiste eile a bheadh in ann dul isteach leo chun tús a chur le meánscoil. Luaigh cainteoirí níos luaithe Coláiste Eoin agus Coláiste Íosagáin. Bhí mé i gColáiste Eoin nuair nach raibh ach sraith amháin de ranganna ann. Ní raibh an scoil chomh mór sin nuair a bunaíodh í. Nuair a bunaíodh an scoil ar dtús, ní raibh ann ach roinnt seomraí le tuairim is 20 duine i ngach uile rang. Tá athrú tagtha ar an bpolasaí; tuigim sin. Tá gá le infheistiú a dhéanamh i bhfoirgnimh agus mar sin de. Ó thaobh na Gaelscolaíochta de áfach, tá an figiúr i bhfad Éireann ró-ard.

Tuigim cad atá á rá faoi aonad. Ní hamháin nach dtaitníonn aonaid le Gaeilgeoirí ach ní thaitníonn siad leo siúd atá ag rith scoileanna Béarla toisc go gcuireann siad as don chóras agus do chur chuige atá ag na scoileanna. Oibríonn siad anois agus arís ach go fíor annamh. Is meánscoil, agus fiú bunscoil, lán-Ghaeilge ann féin atá de dhíth ag an gcuid is mó do na háiteanna agus tá an t-éileamh ann. Luadh Baile Átha Cliath 2, 4, 6, 8 agus 10 agus 12 chomh maith, mar níl aon Ghaelscoil i gceachtar na háiteanna sin ach an oiread. Tá an t-éileamh ann ach níl an Roinn tar éis déileáil leis an éileamh sin.

Níl spás i gColáiste Eoin nó i gColáiste Íosagáin. Chríochnaigh m’iníon ann breis agus bliain ó shin. Fiú má chuirtear leis an bhfoirgneamh, úsáidfear an spás breise sin do dhaltaí ó na scoileanna atá sa cheantar cheana féin, ní hamháin na Gaelscoileanna mar tagann daoine ó scoileanna Béarla sa cheantar chuig Coláiste Eoin agus Coláiste Íosagáin cheana féin. Mar sin má chuirtear 100 nó 200 áit bhreise ar fáil, líonfar iad ó na scoileanna sa cheantar. Ó thaobh Coláiste an Phiarsaigh de, níl sé mór go leor chun glacadh leis an breis is 100 ón 118 dalta a bheidh ag fágaint na bunscoileanna ar fad a luaigh an Teachta Andrews nuair atá siad i rang a sé. Níl siad ar fad ag an leibhéal sin faoi láthair ach ní bheidh Coláiste an Phiarsaigh in ann an t-éileamh atá ann a shásamh. Sa deireadh thiar thall, is é sin ceann de na príomhrudaí. Níl siad ann ina iomláine mar tá dhá chontae in easnamh ach an fáth gur chuir mé na figiúirí ar na contaetha sin ós comhair an choiste ná toisc gurb iad sin na háiteanna ina bhfuil éileamh ann don Ghaelscolaíocht ach nach bhfuil sé á shásamh. Tá gá le hathrú. B'fhéidir go mbeimid ar fad in ann teacht ar an athrú sin amach anseo leis an bpolasaí nua lena bhfuilimid ar fad ag tnúth. B'fhéidir go ndéanfar díriú isteach ar an bhfigiúr sin de 400 a ísliú nó bealaí eile a aimsiú chun cuidiú leis an nGaelscolaíocht lasmuigh de na ceantair Ghaeltachta.

Níor dheineamar deileáil leis na ceantair Ghaeltachta inniu in aon chor agus tá ceisteanna ansin. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil aonad ar leith ann ó thaobh na Gaelscolaíochta de ach tá brú ar leith i gcónaí sna ceantair Ghaeltachta áit nach bhfuil an daonra ann ar aon chaoi; ní Gaeilgeoirí nó Béarla ach an daonra i gcoitinne. An cheist ná conas is féidir linn tacaíocht bhreise a thabhairt do scoileanna a bheadh i mbaol dúnadh. Chonaic muid roinnt tairiscintí á thabhairt le déanaí do chlanna le bogadh isteach i gceantar le gur féidir leis an Roinn Oideachais cuidiú leis an Roinn Turasóireachta, Cultúir, Ealaíon, Gaeltachta, Spóirt agus Meán, leis an údarás, nó le pé dream atá ag iarraidh cuidiú le ceantair atá faoi bhrú. Sna ceantair sin ina bhfuil daoine ón Úcráin ann, tá siad breá sásta agus níl bac ar bith orthu an Ghaeilge a fhoghlaim. Ní gá dóibh díolúintí a fháil agus iad ina gcónaí i gceantair Ghaeltachta rud atá ait nuair a chuirtear an plé a rinneamar níos luaithe san áireamh.

Tá gá práinneach leis an bpolasaí a luaigh an tAire toisc go bhfuil dúshláin ar leith ann, sa sochaí i gcoitinne agus sa chóras státseirbhíse ach go háirithe, níos mó Gaeilgeoirí a fháil le leibhéal B2 acu chun go mbeadh an státchóras in ann an méid atá sa dlí a shásamh, is é sin go mbeadh 20% dóibh siúd atá le hearcú tar éis 2030, go hiomlán inniúil sa Ghaeilge. Dár ndóigh, tá dúshláin eile ann maidir le múinteoirí le Gaeilge agus múinteoirí Gaeilge a bheith ar fáil agus maidir le cuidiú chun polasaí an Stáit an Ghaeilge a tharrtháil agus a chur chun cinn níos mó.

Tá ceist nó dhó eile agam ach b'fhéidir gur féidir díriú ar an méid sin i dtús báire.

Deputy Norma Foley

Ó thaobh na scoileanna sa Ghaeltacht de, tá tacaíocht ar leith tugtha do na scoileanna sin. Particular resources are given to those schools such as greater funding, additional teaching hours, continuing professional development, CPD, and advisory supports from the inspectorate and all of that. There is a particular emphasis being placed on those schools. I hear what the Cathaoirleach is saying about the need to do even more. By way of an example of what we are doing, the Gaeltacht schools can often be very small in size and therefore we are currently running a pilot around small schools and how best to support them. There will be great learning from that. We are looking at things such as potential opportunities within a cluster of small schools in an area to share personnel of an bord bainistíochta or something like that. There is a whole raft of documentation that schools have to do as well with policies on this, that and everything else. We are looking at the sharing of things such as one school doing one policy and another doing another and that kind of thing. In other words, we are looking at what way we can streamline it and make it less challenging for schools to survive, if you like, through getting personnel to be on boards of management and maybe initiatives they might run in the area to attract more students into the school.

In addition to the existing supports we have, we are also running out this pilot and we are determined to ensure the maximum supports will be given because it is the cradle of the language.

The Cathaoirleach made the point that the 400-pupil threshold is too high. The threshold for an English-medium school is between 600 and 1,000 pupils, and for the Gaelcholáistí that has been reduced to 400. I hear what the Cathaoirleach is saying-----

An Cathaoirleach

An difríocht ná nach bhfuil Gaelscoil ann. Ta scoil Bhéarla ann. Sin an difríocht iomlán.

Deputy Norma Foley

Tá a fhios agam, aontaím agus cloisim an pointe. We are trying to put this policy together and I mention the fact there were more than 10,000 submissions on it. Specific to that policy is to look at how we are supporting and how we will help to support and establish the Gaelscoil and the Gaelcholáiste going forward and what mechanisms we can use to support the growth of them. Maybe that will be part of it and maybe it will involve looking at the threshold of 400. Mr. Hanly or Ms Lyons have previously referenced how in cases where two national schools are being established, one of them will now automatically be an Irish-medium school and they can be predetermined. We are proactive in this space, therefore. I am not saying we have done everything and that there is not so much more we need to do but we are active in the space and we are doing all we can. We are looking at a vision for the future out of this policy, which we are anticipating will be completed by September 2024, and it may well include some of the points the Deputy has raised there.

I refer to the Cathaoirleach's point on Coláiste Íosagáin and Coláiste Eoin and I accept his personal familiarity with it. On those three schools, including Coláiste an Phiarsaigh, and on the space there, I will defer to the planning and building unit but the patron in Coláiste Íosagáin and Coláiste Eoin has committed to this technical assessment but I cannot say what will come out of it.

An Cathaoirleach

They do not mind. Níl fadhb ar bith ag Coláiste Eoin nó Coláiste Íosagáin leathnú a dhéanamh ach ní leathnú chun déileáil leis na páistí ag teacht-----

Deputy Norma Foley

An méid atá ann.

An Cathaoirleach

-----isteach ó Bhaile Átha Cliath 2, 4, 6 nó 8. Tá siadsan ag iarraidh déileáil leis an aonad atá ag teacht ón chuid eile den chontae, i nDún Laoghaire, ar an gCarraig Dhubh agus sa chuid eile den cheantar nach bhfuil in ann dul isteach go Coláiste Eoin. Bíonn orthu daoine a chasadh ó doras, san áireamh daoine atá ag teacht ó scoileanna Béarla agus a bhí i gcónaí. Beidh fás, líonfaidh siad é ach ní bheidh siad in ann déileáil le gach duine ó Bhaile Átha Cliath 2, 4, 6 agus 8 ann.

Deputy Norma Foley

We will take the first step, and I hear that the Cathaoirleach is saying that it will not be able to take the huge number. I bow to the fact the Cathaoirleach has personal engagement here but we have the situation where Coláiste an Phiarsaigh has 33 places available that have not been taken up. We are obliged to say that. We will look at the technical assessment and we have an open mind in keeping this under review where there is potential and possibility to do so. Maybe it is an aonad but we are actively looking at Dublin 2, 4, 6 and 8 and the Cathaoirleach said we should go further to Dublin 10 and 12. We are looking in this space and we will keep it under review.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire agus lena hoifigigh. Táthar ag caint faoi aonaid lán-Ghaeilge nuair atá daoine ag lorg coláistí lán-Ghaeilge. Níl mé cinnte faoi na haonaid. Bhí cuid mhór fadhbanna maidir le Coláiste Lú agus a leithéid agus tá an Roinn ag amharc ar scoil satailíte faoin am seo. Cad é tuairim an Aire faoi sin? Caithimid amharc ar an bhfigiúr fosta mar nuair a táimid ag caint ar thresholds, cad é an figiúr? An bhfuil sé 250 nó 400? Caithimid amharc ar fhigiúr atá i bhfad níos ísle ná sin because níl seo ag obair. Caithimid é sin a dhéanamh ionas go mbeimid in ann cuid mhór athruithe a dhéanamh maidir le déileáil leis an bhfadhb seo atá againn. Níl an córas maidir le haonaid maith go leor faoin am seo. Níl sé ag obair agus caithimid amharc ar modhanna eile chun déileáil leis an bhfadhb seo. Níl mé cinnte faoi scoil satailíte ach caithimid triail a bhaint as agus tchífimid.

Deputy Norma Foley

Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil na haonaid casta agus go bhfuil deacrachtaí ann from some people's point of view. Some people believe it is difficult and that there are specific difficulties there. I cannot speak about the particular one the Deputy raised, but in general there are difficulties. There might be an opportunity because I hear what the Deputy is saying. It would be the view of some that the aonaid are in the middle of English-speaking schools and that they are a particular aspect of those English-speaking schools. We need to do better in how we would manage that and there are opportunities, particularly in our new builds, and I do not see why we cannot reconfigure and reimagine existing builds. If the only capacity that is there is for an aonad, then maybe we should be looking at reconfiguring a building to ensure it is a stand-alone within the building. In other words, it would have its own designated entrance and exit and would be almost complete and entire within itself. There might be some areas of sharing, but in general and in principle, it would almost be stand-alone and freestanding within the bigger building. That is just a building effort but we should be able to achieve that. If we are doing it we should be able to achieve that.

On the 400-pupil capacity, we have to be clear that for a post-primary school it is between 600 and 1,000 for the establishment of an English-medium school. It has been reduced to 400 for the Gaelcholáistí, and if the 400 cannot be reached, the aonad can perhaps be looked at. That is notwithstanding that there could be difficulties with that but we should have the capacity to smooth out some of those difficulties in it having its unique identity and everything else. We can look at that going forward. Was there another point?

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Na scoileanna satailíte. Tá mé ag iarraidh sin a dhéanamh i nDún Dealgan.

Deputy Norma Foley

There are nine such post-primary schools, particularly for specific subjects like physics and chemistry. Ms Lyons might come in on this.

Ms Fidelma Lyons

There is a satellite being piloted from this September in Dundalk, which was mentioned, and it is a second campus of an existing Gaelcholáiste. The Gaelcholáiste is based in Balbriggan and the second campus is based in Dundalk. We think there are strategic benefits to piloting this and there may be another option in terms of an aonad lán-Ghaeilge. It needs to be subject to review but it is opening this September.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Tchífimid.

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe

Bhí me mar chuid den pholasaí atá á fhorbairt ar an oideachas lán-Ghaeilge lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht. Tá taighde coimisiúnaithe ag COGG faoi riar an Roinn Oideachais ar na haonaid lán agus tá triúr taighdeoirí ag dul i mbun cainte le gach uile aonad atá sa tír, aonaid atá tar éis dúnadh agus aonaid atá tar éis athrú go Gaelcholáistí. Tá an taighde sin ar cad atá ag tarlú faoi láthair sa réimse sin ó thaobh aonad de an-chuimsitheach. Beidh bunús an-láidir againn sa pholasaí seo ar cad é cás na n-aonad faoi láthair agus cad a chaithimid a chur sa pholasaí nua i dtaobh na n-aonad.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Agus cad atá ag obair agus cad nach bhfuil ag obair.

An Cathaoirleach

Tá cúpla ceist bheag fágtha agamsa.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Roimhe sin, caidé an t-ainm ar an review sin?

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe

Tá an taighde goirt a bheag nó a mhór críochnaithe anois agus beidh anailís ag tarlú ar an taighde i rith an tsamhraidh. Táimid ag súil go mbeidh an taighde agus na torthaí den taighde sin againn go luath sa bhliain acadúil atá le teacht.

An Cathaoirleach

Tá cúpla mioncheist agam a ardaíodh linn agus b'fhéidir go mbeidh na finnéithe in ann iad a fhreagairt.

Cathain a bheidh múinteoirí in ann clárú i nGaeilge leis an gComhairle Mhúinteoireachta ar líne? Ní féidir leo é sin a dhéanamh faoi láthair. Caithfidh siad é a chasadh go Béarla agus cruthaíonn sin moill. Cathain a bheidh sé sin ina fhéidearthacht?

Maidir leis an bpolasaí don Ghaeilge ón luathoideachas agus suas go dtí an tríú leibhéal a fhoilseofar an bhliain seo chugainn, an bhfuil sé i gceist é a cheangal leis an bhFráma Tagartha Comónta Eorpach, FTCE, agus go mbeidh leibhéal áirithe ann? Má táimid ag úsáid an leibhéal sin, mar a luaigh mé, B2 don státseirbhís, ba chóir go mbeadh muid ag díriú air sin tríd an gcóras oideachais.

Tá ceist eile agam atá beagáinín níos casta. Fuair mé freagraí ar maidin ar cheisteanna a chur mé i scríbhinn maidir le comhairle. Bhí mé ag iarraidh fáil amach an bhfuair an tAire nó an Roinn cinneadh a ghlacadh maidir le rudaí difriúla le comhairle ó COGG. Ceann de na trí rud a bhí i gceist ná cinneadh maidir leis an laghdú a tharla, nó atá le tarlú, ar theagasc i nGaeilge ag leibhéal na mbunscoileanna. An bhfuair an tAire, nó an Roinn, comhairle ó COGG sular glacadh le sonraíocht nua don tsraith shóisearach sa mheánscoil?

Baineann an pointe deireanach air sin le comhairle ar pháipéar 1. Bhí sé i gceist páipéar 1 a bhogadh go dtí an cúigiú bliain. Tagraím do na cinn maidir leis an tsraith shóisearach agus an cúigiú bliain agus na hathruithe eile a bhí á bplé agus a tharraing an Roinn siar uathu. An bhfuil sé i gceist dul ar ais chucu siúd roimh nó i ndiaidh an pholasaí nua? Is í mo thuairim féin ná gur chóir iad ar fad a chur ar athló agus aon chinneadh maidir le scolaíocht trí Ghaeilge nó faoin nGaeilge a chur ar athló go dtí go bhfuil an polasaí iomlán foilsithe agus ansin déileáil le haon rud eile a bheadh gafa nó ceangailte leis sin. Is iad sin na ceisteanna ar fad atá agam faoi láthair.

Deputy Norma Foley

In relation to paper 1 and all parts of the senior cycle reform, there was extensive consultation over a long period of time as regards the senior cycle. There was a phenomenal uptake in terms of consultation and a body of work was completed by the NCCA. There was extensive consultation on that. Deputy Moynihan raised a similar point about paper 1 and the overall policy and managing the two. I will have to say to the Cathaoirleach what I said to Deputy Moynihan. We are moving ahead with senior cycle reform. I hear the point the Cathaoirleach is making and that is as much as I can say at this point.

I am aware of that issue with the Teaching Council. We have asked for it to be expedited as quickly as possible. Ms Fannin may have a timeline on that, but we have asked that it be expedited. I ask that she come in on that in terms of the policy and Ms Nic Dhoinnléibhe might come in afterwards. Do we have a timeline on that?

Ms Jill Fannin

No, not at the moment. We can follow up and provide that afterwards if that is okay.

Deputy Norma Foley

But we have asked that it be expedited. I absolutely hear what the Deputy is saying.

An Cathaoirleach

It is not rocket science.

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes, I know.

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe

I dtaobh an pholasaí oideachais lán-Ghaeilge lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht, tá an comhairliúchán fós ar bun ach tá sé sin tagtha aníos go minic sa chomhairliúchán, sin é, an trácht ar an bhfráma tagartha atá ann, Teastas Eorpach na Gaeilge, TEG, agus a leithéidí. Tá sé sin mar chuid den chomhairliúchán agus beidh cinnteacht le déanamh an mbeidh nó nach mbeidh sé mar chuid den fhráma 1. Má fhéachaimid siar ar an bpolasaí don oideachas Ghaeltachta, bhí eilimintí de sin ann sna cúrsaí agus sna cláir a chuireamar ar fáil, ar nós an BEd agus an MEd. Caithfidh na múinteoirí a thagann isteach leibhéal B1 a bheith acu agus faoi dheireadh an chúrsa caithfidh C1 a bheith bainte amach acu. Tá sé sin ann cheana féin laistigh den pholasaí don oideachas Ghaeltachta. Is cinnte go mbeidh eilimintí dóibh siúd a bheadh oiriúnach don pholasaí don oideachas lán-Ghaeilge lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht chomh maith. Beidh sé le fios tar éis an chomhairliúcháin agus na hanailíse an mbeidh sé sin an-lárnach nó an mbeidh eilimintí ag baint le gníomhartha nó aicsin éagsúla laistigh den pholasaí.

An Cathaoirleach

An mian leis an Teachta Pádraig O’Sullivan ceist a chur? Ní mian leis. Gan aon cheist eile, is féidir linn deireadh a chur leis an gcuid seo den chruinniú. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire, an Teachta Foley, agus leis an bhfoireann mhór mhillteach a bhí i láthair inniu as an eolas a roinn siad linn agus na ceisteanna a d’fhreagair siad. Tá clabhsúr leis an díospóireacht ar an ábhar seo.

Níl aon ghnó eile. Cuirim an cruinniú ar athló go dtí an chéad chruinniú eile ar 1.30 p.m. an tseachtain seo chugainn, Dé Céadaoin, an 21 Meitheamh sa seomra coiste 4, nuair a phléifear na seirbhísí uisce agus séarachais a chuireann Uisce Éireann ar fáil i gceantair Ghaeltachta, agus beidh ionadaithe ó Uisce Éireann i láthair.

Cuireadh an comhchoiste ar athló ar 3.46 p.m. go dtí 1.30 p.m., Dé Céadaoin, an 21 Meitheamh 2023.