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COMMITTEE of PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 20 Jan 2000

Vol. 2 No. 2

1998 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts (Resumed)

Vote 19 - Office of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Vote 20 - Garda Síochána.

Vote 21 - Prisons.

Vote 22 - Courts.

Vote 23 - Land Registry and Registry of Deeds.

Mr. J. Purcell (An t-Árd Reachtaire Cuntais agus Ciste), Mr. T. Dalton (Secretary General, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform) and Mr. B. Murphy (Chairman, Office of Public Works) called and examined.

Acting Chairman

Item No. 6 on our agenda is the 1998 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts: Vote 19 - Office of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Vote 20 - Garda Síochána; Vote 21 - Prisons; Vote 22 - Courts; Vote 23 - Land Registry and Registry of Deeds. Item No. 7 is the 1998 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts: Vote 10 - Office of Public Works/Vote 44 - Flood Relief.

Witnesses should be made aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege and should be apprised as follows: attention of members and witnesses is drawn to the fact that, as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act, 1997, grants certain rights to the persons who are identified in the course of the Committee's proceedings. These rights include the right to give evidence; the right to produce or send documents to the Committee; the right to appear before the Committee, either in person or through a representative; the right to make a written and oral submission; the right to request the Committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents, and the right to cross examine witnesses.

For the most part these rights may be exercised only with the consent of the Committee. Persons being invited before the Committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified in the course of proceedings who are not present may have to be made aware of these rights and provided with a transcript of the relevant part of the Committee's proceedings if the Committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice.

Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him identifiable.

We will resume on Vote 21 - Prisons, paragraphs 18 and 19. It has been decided that paragraph 20 which deals with compensation will be dealt with on 3 February when the Committee will hear from the Department and the Office of the Attorney General, the Office of the Chief State Solicitor and the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. Do you wish to make an opening statement, Mr. Dalton?

Mr. Dalton

I do not have anything to add to the statement I made on Castlerea on the last occasion.

Acting Chairman

Paragraphs 18 and 19 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

18. Castlerea Prison Perimeter Wall

The original cost estimate of the Perimeter Wall project at Castlerea prison prepared during the design stage in February 1994 was £3.57m while a second cost estimate prepared in April 1994 was £2.5m. Tenders were to be sought from 9 contractors short-listed from 46 firms who had declared their interest in the project. The Government did not agree to this restrictive tender approach and decided that an open tender competition be held.

Following receipt of 36 tenders the lowest one in the sum of £1.18m was accepted in May 1994. The successful tenderer had been declared as unsuitable when the original short listing assessment was carried out.

The completed contract price came to £1.2m and the project was completed in 1995.

In response to my inquiry as to why the cost estimates were so significantly higher than the contract price, the Accounting Officer of Office of Public Works stated that the estimates were guided by the cost of the Wheatfield Prison Wall, which although similar, was constructed differently but which was the only like project undertaken by the Office of Public Works in the modern era. The disparity between the estimate and the lowest bid reflects the keenness of the tender competition, and in particular the pricing approach adopted by the lowest bidder who, to quote the quantity surveyor's tender report "has adopted a keen price and risk taking method".

As to why a restricted tendering procedure was considered by the Office of Public Works to be appropriate in this case, the Accounting Officer stated that the tendering procedure to be used depends on the particular circumstances pertaining to the project. In this instance the size of the project and the nature of the work (i.e. on a security installation) restrictive tendering was appropriate. The Department of Justice Equality and Law Reform concurred with this view.

In the light of experience of this project, I inquired whether criteria for using restricted tendering have been revised to ensure that optimum value for money is achieved in the awarding of contracts. The Accounting Officer informed me that the Office of Public Works holds the view that the use of restricted tendering does not inhibit the achievement of optimum value for money. In addition, the existing criteria for using restricted tendering in the prisons context are not solely concerned with economic considerations (although they naturally form a large part) but also deal with issues particular to the security aspects of such projects.

19. Castlerea Prison Project

A design and build contract is one where the building client contracts with a developer/contractor to purchase a building complete in every respect and suitable for the intended purpose, at a fixed price. So as to ensure that design and build contracts are successful from an economic and cost control perspective it is vital that the outline design and specifications for such projects are clearly defined before tenders are sought so as to ensure that changes and/or additional works do not arise once the contract is awarded. However, during audit I noted that the Castlerea Prison design and build project which was contracted to cost £12.7m was completed at a cost of £14.34m.

In March 1994, the Government decided to provide accommodation for 150 male prisoners in Castlerea. The project involved the conversion of the existing hospital building to use as a prison and the construction of some new buildings. It was also agreed that the design and build method of procurement should be used for this project.

During 1994, the Office of Public Works (OPW), acting as contracting agent for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Department), invited 19 contractors to apply for inclusion in the pre-qualifying process. Fourteen positive responses were received and, following assessment by Office of Public Works, were ranked in order of merit. In March 1995, tender documents were issued by Office of Public Works to 7 firms as:

- 4 had been ranked as highly suitable

- 1 had previous involvement in prison work

- 1 had previous experience of design and build developments and was located in the area

- 1, though ranked 13th in the order of merit, had a design team on board who had experience of prison work in the UK and was classed as a "wild card".

Following discussion with the Construction Industry Federation, Office of Public Works reduced the list of invitees from 7 to 4 but no tenders were received as, in June 1995, the Government decided to defer the project. In March 1996, the Department requested Office of Public Works to revise the project to effect cost savings, to reduce the prison accommodation from 150 to 120 and to construct a less elaborate prison within the budget of £12-13m.

Tender documents were re-issued in November 1996 to the 4 firms previously selected by Office of Public Works and four tenders were received, ranging from £11m (by the firm previously ranked 13th out of 14) to £23.5m. The tender documents issued to the firms included a design brief indicating the extent of the work to be carried out and the costs to be covered in the tender proposal.

Following review by Office of Public Works, the lowest tender was increased to £12.7m to adjust for an error of £200,000, the inclusion of VAT at £1.38m and the provision of a bond at a cost of £75,000. It was also agreed that payment of £250,000 to the local authority for a sewerage connection would be paid by the Department, even though the tender documents issued to the four firms required its inclusion.

It was further proposed by the tenderer, prior to the execution of the contract in January 1997, to substitute precast concrete for concrete block work (as proposed by Office of Public Works) in the construction of cell walls as this would provide an additional 12 cells. The proposal was accepted, at an extra cost of £247,500, the work to be carried out under a separate contract.

The project was completed in 1998 and the full cost came to £14.34m comprising

£m

12.70

Design and Build contract

0.22

Sewerage Connection

0.25

Extra spaces as a result of change in cell block construction

1.17

Additional costs after work commenced.

In reply to my inquiry as to whether the assessment of contractors was satisfactory given that the contractor who was eventually successful was ranked 13th out of 14 in the order of merit, before being included in the short list of 4 who were invited to tender, the Accounting Officer informed me that:

The Office of Public Works have informed him that it is considered that the assessment procedure was satisfactory, given the factors applying at the time. The assessment was based on information and data supplied, on request, by the candidates and which was current and valid at the time the evaluation was carried out. The criteria employed were also considered directly appropriate to this particular project, given the procurement method proposed.

The placing achieved by the successful contractor following the assessment process did not necessarily reflect adversely on either that particular contractor or the assessment method used. The assessment did not, for example, conclude that this contractor, (or indeed any of the other candidate contractors), was incapable of carrying out the work, but merely said that, on an objective analysis based on the requirements of the project, the information supplied by candidates, the accepted criteria employed to evaluate that data and the Office of Public Works's own knowledge of the firm in question, this was the appropriate rating.

It should be noted that the successful contractor for the project had already tendered and completed successfully the construction of the prison wall at Castlerea, at a very competitive price. (see paragraph 18).

As a design and build contract should include all costs to provide a suitable prison building, I inquired as to why the proposed sewerage connection estimated at £250,000 and the additional spaces costing £247,500 were not included in the tender proposals received from the successful applicant. In this regard I noted that the contractor expressly excluded any local authority charges from his tender bid price contrary to the tender document requirement.

The Accounting Officer informed me that:

The sewerage scheme as originally designed and tendered for envisaged that there would not be a need for onsite sewerage treatment. The preferred option in dealing with this matter was to connect directly to the public system and this was the solution pursued by Office of Public Works. The existing public system did not have the capacity to deal with the volume of effluent from the proposed Prison so this option was not feasible. However, following discussions with the local authority and the Department of the Environment and Local Government, the Department and Office of Public Works became aware that there was a proposal, by Roscommon County Council, to construct a new public town sewerage scheme for Castlerea and in that context, it was logical that provision should be made to allow the County Council to connect the Prison directly into this new scheme and thus obviate the need for any arrangements to be made within the contract to deal with this item. An agreement was reached between the County Council and the Department that the cost, to the Department, of this connection and associated works would be £250,000. This would have had the dual benefit of removing a significant element of work from the project and also ensuring that there would not be a need to provide for a continuing expense in future years in maintaining sewerage plant on site. The County Council had no difficulty with this proposal and consented to allow the direct connection to be put in place.

As the project progressed through the construction phase however, it became apparent that, contrary to previous indications the new public scheme proposed for Castlerea was not, in fact, likely to be provided in the timescale previously indicated. The Department of the Environment and Local Government confirmed this to the Department as the contract for the Prison was nearing completion. In this context, the Department was obliged to make separate arrangements for the treatment of sewage. An onsite solution was eventually adopted, since neither of the public options was then feasible. The Department following a separate tender competition entered into a separate contract with a different contractor to install a suitable modern sewerage treatment plant exclusively for the prison at a cost of £220,227.

The proposal to provide additional spaces was not made by the contractor in his tender because his price was based strictly on the tender documentation supplied. The proposal was made separately, later, on his own initiative and was specifically approved by the Inter-Departmental Committee (Departments of Justice, Finance and Office of Public Works) overseeing the Accelerated Prison Programme on the basis that it represented good value for money and should therefore be availed of.

In reply to my inquiry as to why £1.17m additional costs arose following the award of the design and build contract the Accounting Officer stated that these arose in order to deal with new requirements arising since the original design and matters which could not have been foreseen at the outset but which were necessary for the proper completion of the works. These included: £768,000 for the inclusion of Palmreaders and Audio Visual Units on doors and gates, the provision of fibre optic cabling between blocks, variations to doors and additional fencing. As the project developed, the Department became aware of the use of Palmreaders and Audio-Visual Units to gates and doors in prisons in Northern Ireland and the UK, where they proved to be very effective and cost-cutting. The installation of these devices in Castlerea has achieved staff savings in the region of 20 staff posts at a saving of £380,000 per annum. This will result in substantial savings over the coming years. The variation on the doors, the fibre optic cabling, additional fencing and other works were items which were identified during the construction period and were necessary for the proper completion of the works and the smooth running of the prison.

£181,000 for sundry work including £78,500 for a water softening system. The water softening system was recommended by the technical engineers to prevent the build up of limescale on all the hot water equipment, which would have caused difficulties to the smooth operation of a working prison. The other principal items of expenditure were the provision of service ducts between Block B and the south west gatelock and the provision of firehose reels and enclosures. These were essential items which were required for the prison.

£114,000 to construct a surface water drain. (Though the tender documents issued to the four firms required the inclusion of such a drainage system in the tender price, I noted that the contractor specifically excluded provision for this in his successful tender proposal). Towards the end of the contract, it became apparent that a scheme of works would be required to rectify a problem which was then becoming apparent in relation to the system of surface water drainage. Historically, since the former hospital had been constructed, the surface and foul water systems had fed into one unified sewerage treatment plant. The system then in place was designed to cope with this. However, when the new prison sewerage system was constructed, it became apparent that this method of mixing foul and surface water would not be possible, since the more modern system proposed required that the two feeds could not be mixed. For this reason, it was necessary to put a project in place to separate the two and provide a separate outfall for the surface water, since it would, if it continued to drain into the sewerage system, interfere with the efficient operation of the sewerage system. The scheme of works to give effect to this proposal was put out to tender and was awarded, after competition, to the on site contractor.

£55,000 for securing and making good the west wing. During the course of the contract, the contractor used the former hospital west wing as his base of operations/site office. This meant that he did not have to set up temporary site office accommodation and thus avoided incurring costs (which would ultimately have had to be borne by the Department under the contract). Since the building had up to recently been occupied, a minimum of work was necessary to bring it up to an acceptable standard. No specific prison related use had been established for the building by the time the contract had been completed and the contractor vacated the site. In the interim, until a final decision was made on the long-term use to which the premises would be put, it was decided that, in order to prevent the building from falling into disrepair, a scheme of works should be put in place which would weatherproof the premises and establish a stable environment so that the building fabric would not deteriorate. This was especially relevant given the onset of winter when, unprotected, the building might have been vulnerable to frost and rain damage in particular. The contractor on site was awarded the contract for the works required after a competitive tender process and the necessary protection was duly applied to the building so that it could remain in relatively good condition pending a decision as to its future.

£48,000 for a water main which was a requirement made by Roscommon County Council. The works included the extension and diversion of the water main with appropriate connections and junctions, as well as a 100mm spare duct in one of the trenches for future use.

The Accounting Officer also stated that consideration should be given to the fact that this was the Department's first experience of a design and build project. Because of the experience gained through this project, he has ensured that on current design and build projects under way there is a greater involvement of the Department's technical staff at all stages of the project. This leads to more cost effective and smooth running of the contract.

Mr. Purcell

The committee is resuming on paragraphs 18 and 19. During its examination of capital works undertaken at Castlerea Prison at its meeting of 2 December the committee decided to call in the Accounting Officer of the Office of Public Works in relation to the management of two projects at the prison. The Office of Public Works acts as agent of the Department in this matter. Paragraph 18 relates to the building of a perimeter wall around the old hospital as a prelude to its adaptation for use as a prison. Paragraph 19 relates to its conversion to serve as a prison with the construction of some new buildings.

On paragraph 18, the Office of Public Works estimated the cost of constructing the wall at between £2.5 million and £3.5 million. It decided to go for a restricted tender competition but the Government overruled this decision and directed that an open competition be held. In the event the wall was built at a cost of £1.2 million by the successful tenderer who had been excluded by the Office of Public Works from the earlier restricted list on the basis that he was unsuitable. As I said the last day this seemed to call into question the estimating methods used by the Office of Public Works, the appropriateness of a restricted tender procedure for this type of contract, and the quality of evaluation of contractors' capabilities by the Office of Public Works.

Paragraph 19 relates to a design and build project where the contractor undertakes to provide a building complete in every respect suitable for its intended purpose for an agreed price in line with an outline design brief and specification. It is worth mentioning a few points. Additional expenditure was incurred as a result of the contractor's proposal that precast concrete instead of concrete blocks be used in the construction of the cell walls. This provided 12 extra cells at an additional cost of about £250,000 which represented good value but it was achieved on the initiative of the contractor rather than the Department or the Office of Public Works.

An extra £750,000 or so was incurred in the installation of advanced security features such as palm readers and audio-visual units during construction. Again, this was good value for money as it reduces operating costs but one could question why these modern security facilities were not planned for in the first place.

There was also a problem of co-ordinating plans for sewerage with the local authority which ultimately led to the need to construct a sewage treatment plant exclusively for the prison. This will entail ongoing maintenance costs. A side effect of having the sewage treatment plant on site was that a surface water drain had to be built at an additional cost of approximately £114,000. That is a summary of the issues that arise from the two paragraphs in question.

Acting Chairman

Will you introduce your officials, Mr. Dalton?

Mr. Dalton

I am accompanied by Mr. Ken Bruton, finance officer; Ms Sylda Langford, equality division, and Mr. Seán Alyward, Director General, Prison Service.

Acting Chairman

Will you introduce your officials, Mr. Murphy?

Mr. Murphy

I am accompanied by Mr. Seán Benton, commissioner in charge of the projects and properties services.

I apologise for not being present the last day when an explanation may have been given for this but in relation to paragraph 18 will the Office of Public Works or perhaps the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform explain how a contractor who had been excluded from the earlier restricted list ended up being the lowest bidder? Is that usual?

Mr. Murphy

A number of points raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General have to be answered because they do not affect the facts of what actually happened. On the question of exclusion, there are two ways of tendering for a project, the first of which is open competitive competition where anybody can put in a price and set of proposals. Alternatively, there is a restricted method whereby the CIF asks for only four but we have agreed up to six and sometimes more tenderers who are asked by invitation after a kind of prequalifying stage where everybody is first asked if they want to take part in the competition to submit a tender. From that long list a short list is made, the names on which tender. To fail to get on the short list is not an implication of unsuitability. I note that in his report the Comptroller and Auditor General states that one of the tenderers was declared unsuitable. That is not so and we have pointed out this. The tenderer was not unsuitable. It is simply that by limiting the number of tenderers in a restricted competition, somebody has to fall off the table. In this case, we took the nine most suitable. We have a matrix for working out under various headings what the qualifications are to get into the restricted part of the competition. If one does not get into that matrix, it says nothing about one's suitability. This particular firm was quite suitable even though it was outside the restricted list.

The big difference between open competitive tendering and restricted tendering is that once one has a restricted process, the lowest tenderer must be awarded the job because one has gone through the stage of judging whether he is capable. In this case, we went for restrictive tendering in the initial stage because we thought the market conditions were such and the judgment of the office was that that was the correct route.

We were not overruled by Government - again as this report states. The Minister at the time and the Office of Public Works commissioners looked at the market conditions as they were changing and decided that it was appropriate at the stage when we went out to open competitive tendering that that was the correct thing to do at that point. It is the policy of the Government, the CIF and the EU Commission and the advice of the forum on the construction industry that restrictive tendering is the preferred route. The reason they think that is that it reduces the costs to the building industry because open competitive tendering is expensive for firms and the industry wishes to reduce the number of firms who have to engage in the preparation of tenders and the costs that go with that.

What year are we discussing?

Mr. Murphy

1993-94. I will get the exact dates.

It seems there is a direct clash or contradiction. Mr. Murphy is stating that the Comptroller and Auditor General's report is flawed in the assertion of two alleged facts, one being that the candidate who ultimately got the contract on the lowest price basis when it was reopened——

Mr. Murphy

Yes.

——was never deemed to be unsuitable.

Mr. Murphy

Never.

Is this a tautology in a sense? They were not deemed to be unsuitable, but they were certainly deemed not to be suitable. Is that correct?

Mr. Murphy

It is not even that. When one is in the pre-selection phase in a two stage tendering process, one will get - I cannot remember the precise number - maybe 20 or more people saying that they are interested in the particular process. They then have to be listed on the basis of a set of criteria in terms of an order of their worthiness. We would then choose only six - in this case it was nine but it is normally six - from that. However, we would not say that any of the people listed were unsuitable. They are suitable to degrees. Can I tell the Deputy what would have put this company down as low as it was?

Mr. Murphy

One of the criteria on the matrix in assessing companies is previous experience with that firm or previous experience of that firm in this country. In this case, Henry O'Rourke had not done this kind of work in this country so they would have got a very low score under that heading.

Acting Chairman

Before the Deputy continues, I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to clarify the position.

Before he does that, the second area of apparent contradiction regarding the suitability was that the Government ordered that it be reopened.

Mr. Murphy

No, there was no such order.

From the Government as a collective entity?

Mr. Murphy

No.

Was it the Minister and the commissioners?

Mr. Murphy

Yes, it was the Minister and the commissioners.

In what sense? What led to the reopening? What market conditions——

Mr. Murphy

What led to the reopening?

Mr. Murphy

It was time and I really do not want to go into this here. It is not quite relevant to this. We were having certain difficulties or an exchange of views with the CIF over tendering procedures and tendering processes.

There was a row between the Office of Public Works and CIF?

Mr. Murphy

I would have said a constructive debate which has led to a constructive and different form of dealings with the CIF. However, at that stage we were having a serious debate with the CIF over tendering methods.

And that led to the Office of Public Works's change of heart?

Mr. Murphy

Absolutely.

Mr. Purcell

There are several complexions one can put on this. I tend to rely on official documents and I have a document here which is from the files of the Office of Public Works and which gives a schedule of quite a large number - 30 or so - of contractors in the drawing up of the restricted list. The list includes the particular contractor who was successful ultimately. It talks about Office of Public Works under a heading - "OPW experience - yes; civil engineering capacity - not proven; financial capacity - no details given", and further comments, "only one civil engineering project undertaken in Ireland to date, unsuitable". If the Chairman wishes, I can have that copied for the Deputies. It was on that basis that I recorded that particular fact in my report.

On the second point, again reading from an official document on the official file which states:

Due to a nine day delay at Cabinet level, where it was decided to proceed with open tendering, after Office of Public Works had carried out a pre-selection exercise and investigated all applicants, invitation of tenders actually occurred on 28 April.

There is an earlier reference in the official documents that documents for tender invitation were held because the Taoiseach had expressed concern at the exclusion of a number of the small and locally based firms from the tender list.

The Accounting Officer is right. There were problems with the CIF at the time and they are recorded on file as well. However, it seems that both statements I made are correct and backed up by what is in the official files.

There is a certain amount of conflict here. Is Mr. Purcell saying the Taoiseach expressed reservations at the time and there was a Cabinet decision or that there was a delay in making a Cabinet decision about this matter in 1994?

Mr. Purcell

My reading of it is - I can go only on what is in front of me - that the matter was put before the Cabinet and there was a nine day delay at Cabinet level where it was decided to proceed with open tendering. That to me would suggest——

What is the date for the nine day delay?

Mr. Purcell

I am reading from a note of a meeting of the steering committee relating to the Castlerea new detention centre which was held on 4 May 1994. In attendance at that meeting were the Accounting Officer, Mr. Murphy, Miss U. Redmond, Miss N. O'Regan, Mr. H. Mitchell, Mr. F. Wall and Mr. J. King. As the meeting was in connection with the perimeter wall only, the presence of the Department of Finance personnel was not necessitated. Perhaps I could make that available to the committee.

What was the subsequent reference to the Taoiseach?

Mr. Purcell

That was at another meeting on 25 April 1994.

Did the Taoiseach express reservations about the tendering system?

Mr. Purcell

Yes. Again it was in reference to the perimeter wall project. It was at a meeting attended by Miss U. Redmond, Office of Public Works, Miss N. O'Regan, presumably of Office of Public Works, and Mr. H. Mitchell of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The document states:

The up to date position is as follows: Documents were ready on 22 April 1994 for tender invitations. These have been held, however, because the Taoiseach has expressed concern at the exclusion of a number of the smaller locally based firms from the tender list. Mr. Mitchell undertook to brief his Minister in the matter and to advise her that the delay with tender invitation could adversely affect the timescale for commencement on site.

It goes on to refer to other matters. That seems to tie in with the nine day delay referred to on 4 May, which was nine days later.

Did any of these locally based firms tender in the open competition?

Mr. Purcell

Perhaps, the Accounting Officer would be in a better position——

Thank you for that clarification. Before the Accounting Officer replies, it seems there is a clear conflict here, which I hope can be resolved sensibly. His contention is that there was no Cabinet decision but the Comptroller states quite the opposite, that at one of the steering committee meetings on 4 May 1994 the Accounting Officer attributed the delay to the nine day delay or debate - whatever one wants to call it - at Cabinet about the system. According to the Comptroller's reading of the evidence, the Taoiseach became involved because he was worried about the exclusion of locally based firms. Some questions flow from that. First, was there, in Mr. Murphy's understanding, a Cabinet discussion about it, as stated in the minutes quoted by the Comptroller? Second, did the Taoiseach of the day express concern about the exclusion of locally based firms? Were the locally based firms allowed to pitch for the business as a result of the reopening of this tender?

Mr. Murphy

To answer the first question, we got 30 to 39 tenders on the open basis, so I would say every local firm tendered. Six of the firms on the restricted tendering list also tendered. I mention that only because Deputy McCormack asked the last day what the likely bids of the restricted tenderers would have been if they had been allowed go ahead on the basis of a restricted competition. We know the answer to that perfectly well because we had bids from them in the open competition.

The question of unsuitability would be our own Office of Public Works shorthand, which I think would have been pointed out to the C & AG's staff. We were simply listing people in a particular order. On the question of the Government, I am not aware——

There seems to be a conflict about suitability and unsuitability. Mr. Murphy has stated they were not deemed to be unsuitable.

Mr. Murphy

That is right.

Could he clarify that?

Mr. Murphy

If you simply take, Deputy, what the Comptroller said——

Did Mr. Murphy state that Henry O'Rourke had no experience?

Mr. Murphy

In Ireland.

The Comptroller seems to be suggesting they had experience of one——

Mr. Murphy

That is all, one item. It was the Drumsna by-pass, as far as I remember.

So they did have experience in Ireland?

Mr. Murphy

On a road building project but not on this kind of project.

So that is why Mr. Murphy said——

Acting Chairman

I ask the Deputy to conclude. I will let him speak again after we have heard from some other members.

I think the Accounting Officer wants to respond.

Mr. Murphy

I have no information on the Government decision, as such, on the form of tendering. It would unusual for the Government to make a decision formally on such a matter. I know the Government was concerned about the Castlerea project, which it cancelled at one stage. However, the Office of Public Works would not have been party to that part of the debate.

He is now saying there was a decision——

Mr. Murphy

We would not have had any input.

Mr. Murphy is now conceding there was a decision.

Mr. Murphy

No, I am saying we have no information on one. I have never seen a decision from Government that actually said that.

Is the steering committee note, which was quoted by the Comptroller, inaccurate? The Comptroller said the steering committee, of which Mr. Murphy was part and which was steering this project towards some conclusion, that is, the building of the prison, referred to a nine day delay at Cabinet. I know one can be bureaucratic about this and say there was no decision by Cabinet, but there certainly seems to have been a discussion at Cabinet. Is Mr. Murphy distinguishing between a decision and a discussion?

Mr. Murphy

Yes. One normally would not get a formal Government decision, which has a particular kind of existence, on this type of matter. The Government clearly was discussing this particular project from all kinds of angles over a long period, and both started and stopped the project at least once.

But then——

Acting Chairman

I must interrupt the Deputy, I will let him in later if he wishes.

I am not very clear about the restrictive practices. Following from the point raised by Deputy Lenihan, who took the decision to put the restrictive practice in place in the first instance? According to the information we got on 2 December, only nine tenders out of the 46 that had preliminary offers to tender were accepted in the restrictive practice arrangement. The best contract price there was £3.57 million. That is how much the wall was going to cost under the restrictive practice arrangement. However, when it was eventually put to open tender the wall was built for £1.2 million. Some contractor would have made about £1.5 million on top of his normal profit if the restrictive practice had not been checked. Whose decision was it, in the first instance, to have a restrictive practice arrangement?

Mr. Murphy

I will start at this end of Deputy McCormack's question. There is no question of a restrictive tendering procedure having a price attached to it. It is a tendering procedure. The nine tenderers under the restrictive procedure would have bid in the normal way. When it came to the open competition, six of them bid. I have those bids here and I can tell the Deputy what the difference would have been between the restrictive price and the open price. I cannot give the Deputy names because of——

Please tell me.

Mr. Murphy

The difference was £37,000. I will be absolutely precise and get the exact figure for the Deputy.

That conflicts with the information we obtained at the meeting on 2 December, where the figure of £3.57 million was mentioned as being the best contract price. That was my understanding.

Acting Chairman

The Comptroller wishes to intervene.

Mr. Purcell

That is not suggested in any way in the paragraph. That refers to the Office of Public Works's estimate of what it would cost to build the wall.

Correct, it is my mistake.

Mr. Purcell

That was later revised down to £2.5 million.

Yes, but the Government agency advising on those matters advised that the likely price would be £3.57 million. How did the Office of Public Works get it so wrong when a satisfactory job was completed for £1.2 million? We were informed the last day by Mr. Dalton that the work was carried out satisfactorily and on time. They were very satisfied with the contractor which eventually tendered to do the work for £1.2 million.

Mr. Murphy

The prices of £3.5 million and £2.5 million were not estimates of the likely price of the wall in Castlerea. Those estimates referred to Wheatfield. The file shows that clearly. The estimating sheets on the file are headed "Wheatfield" as the starting point. They were regarded by us as reference points, and that is all. However, as the process went on, the specification for the wall around Castlerea prison changed and was not nearly as high as the specification for the wall around Wheatfield prison.

Second, the ground conditions which had been examined at Castlerea, during extremely wet weather, turned out on further investigation to be much better than had been thought. Between both these features - both the ease in doing the foundations and the fact that the specification was somewhat less - we were well aware that the price of the wall would be very much less than the reference prices we had put on file. Equally, the tenderers were well aware of this. The ten lowest tenders are within about 10% of each other. If you like, I will tell you what the lowest of the——

No. I did not ask that question at all. I am trying to base my question on the reference of the Office of Public Works. I would not accept as a valid reason that wet weather was the cause of the eventual cost of building the wall being more than double the guideline price prepared by the Office of Public Works. It is not valid to say that, "We looked at it in wet weather and we thought it might cost £3.57 million", when in fact it only cost £1.2 million.

There were not any Shannon floods that year.

Mr. Murphy

Well, there possibly were. On the question of the reduction in the specification for the wall, that does affect the price. It affected both the foundations, the wall finish, the fact that we were not in an urban setting, and that the requirements of the client were different from the Wheatfield case. We knew that all these factors taken together would reduce the reference value, so we did the redesign to the client's specification. It is the redesigned wall, not the original Wheatfield type wall, that went out to open tender.

Yes, but what was the purpose of the first designed wall?

Mr. Murphy

There was no design for the first price. The first price was a reference price, referenced to Wheatfield. In other words, when somebody asked us what would be the cost of a wall around a prison, we only had experience of one such, which was Wheatfield, and we used the Wheatfield prices to arrive at that reference value, but that is all. There is nothing more scientific to it.

The bottom line is that the reference price was £2.3 million greater than the actual price in the end, as the facts turned out.

Mr. Murphy

The actual design, the wall, turned out to be different. This was at the very start when the client and ourselves had no idea what kind of wall was required, so we priced the reference price by reference to the one wall we knew about.

I will pass on that. I now want to find out about the tendering process for the erection of the prison. I understand the original contract price was £12.7 million, but the completed cost was £14.3 million. That was explained by added costs, etc., but following the completion of the original tendering process there were discussions between the contractors. Did that not give some contractors a better opportunity, knowing what the original contract prices were? Could I get some clarification on that?

Mr. Murphy

There are two different questions there. I will take the second one first. After tendering, discussion with contractors is perfectly normal to clarify elements in their tenders. We do not swap information between tenderers, but we have to get clarification on their tenders. We certainly do not release our estimates or any other information we might have.

Were there two separate tenders then? Was there a first and a second tendering process?

Mr. Murphy

There were two tendering processes. One was incomplete because the Government cancelled the scheme at a particular point and we had to go back out to tender.

At that point, after the first tendering process, would people have been aware of what the tender prices were?

Mr. Murphy

Certainly not from the Office of Public Works.

Would they be aware from information that might pass between individual tenderers?

Mr. Murphy

I cannot possibly comment on that. I have no idea, but to reply to the first part of the Deputy's question, that arises from the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, which says that the design/build project was contracted to cost £12.5 million and was completed at a cost of £13.34. In fact, the design/build project at £12.7 million was completed at £12.6 million, not £14.34 million. The £14.34 million is a bundle of contracts - all brought together and brought in on time and under their individual budgets - and are not additions to the original. Originally we had planned to do the sewage treatment system separately. We had planned to do the fit out, that is the security items and so on, separately. I am just looking for the additional contracts we had. There are various contracts there, all of which were planned at the same time as the design/build contract, and that were done separately.

One of these extra elements was a separate contract for the extra 12 cells. That was an offer made by the contractor at a particular stage, to provide 12 cells at a reduced cost. That is not an extra on the contract; this is a new contract for 12 cells being offered to us at only £20,000 each. That is an offer we could not refuse. That was the subject of a separate contract which came in precisely on the price quoted.

Acting Chairman

Please finish up, Deputy. I will let you in again.

It was mentioned that because of the change of the sewage treatment plant, it cost £140,000 to drain the surface water or some other water off the site. That seems an excessive amount. I was involved in a drainage scheme in south Galway where we relieved many people for that type of money.

Mr. Murphy

I cannot comment on the exact price. I am not sure that it was not a local authority requirement. We simply did what the local authority required us to do. I would have to delve into my papers to get the source of that. That cost would arise no matter what we were doing on sewage treatment. It seems to have been a change of mind by the local authority on how to handle foul and surface water drainage.

I would be interested in a break-down of the costs of dealing with the foul and surface water from the site. The sum of £140,000 plus seems extraordinary to me.

Mr. Murphy

I will certainly be able to get that.

For that sum one would certainly drain it through the Shannon from Castlerea.

Sticking to Castlerea, the major over-expenditure appears to be £768,000 for the inclusion of palm-readers and audio-visual units on the doors and gates. It also states that this has effected staff savings in the region of 20 staff posts - a saving of £380,000 per annum. Will Mr. Aylward say what is the position in relation to these palm-readers and audio-visual units. How do they work? Have they been effective, how long are they in, and have the staff savings actually materialised?

I will respond to that if I may, Chairman.

Acting Chairman

Please identify yourself.

I am Seán Aylward, the Director General of the Prison Service. An important point is that it was only as the project developed that the officials dealing with it in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, who were liaising with the Office of Public Works, became aware of the existence and the development of this new technology of palm-readers and linked audio-visual units at gates and doors in prisons in Northern Ireland. They had to go and see them. They were still in the process of being installed when they first learned of them. They found from their inquiries that they were very effective in cutting costs.

Turning to the question raised by Deputy Ardagh, I confirm that the installation of the devices referred to in Castlerea has achieved staff savings in the region of 20 staff posts. As a result, a saving of approximately £380,000 per annum is being realised. However, there is a payoff here. Given that it is a relatively small prison, it is necessary to look at trends over several years to be certain that it is being maintained. So far - I have seen them myself - they are working well at that location. We have moved to install them in the new Clover Hill Prison, but the jury is out on that because they will be placed in different locations in that prison. Time will tell.

The additional cost of these additions was a tremendous investment for the taxpayer. It could not have been made sooner, nor specified earlier because the technology did not exist.

Returning to the perimeter wall and the difference between the reference price and the final conflict price, who compiled the reference price? Was it a junior clerk or a quantity surveyor?

Mr. Murphy

The price was made up by a quantity surveyor within the office, but his instructions at that point were clear: he was to provide a reference price on the basis of our own experience, which is what he did. It was a desk job. The only experience we had was the wall at Wheatfield Prison.

Without referring to any specific person, do you consider that the quantity surveyor, a person of professional competence, should have taken a more rigorous approach to the pricing of a wall like that?

Mr. Murphy

He could only have done that if there was a design for the wall before him and at that point there was no design. The client's wishes were not fully known at that point and the design had not been done.

It astounds me that his initial reference cost was three times the final contract price and almost three times what was the final contract price - £1.2 million versus £3.6 million.

Mr. Murphy

The wall was very likely only a fraction of the specification of the Wheatfield wall. In the period between the Wheatfield wall and this wall being built, the technique of port concrete walls had also changed, which can be seen in the midlands prison, if the Deputy visits it. The process and technique involved in preparing port concrete walls has changed in that it is more efficient and much cheaper. All the tenderers in this case are working from the new technology. The technology for the Wheatfield wall is, I would guess, 20 or 30 years old.

Would it not be expected that a quantity surveyor, who is dealing with the construction of prisons, would be up to date with the technology that is present at that time?

Mr. Murphy

He was given a basic job of simply taking the wall price we had on file and bringing it up to date, to the 1994 prices. That is all he was asked to do.

You have already said there was not a wall price on file, that there was a mixture at Wheatfield that had not been specifically identified as a wall price.

Mr. Murphy

No, he took the Wheatfield price, which was the only wall we had built in the previous 20 or 30 years.

Was the wall at Wheatfield specifically priced out of the contract?

Mr. Murphy

Yes, the Wheatfield wall contract was a separate contract also.

In his report the quantity surveyor said that the lowest bidder has adopted a keen price and a risk taking method. Was this the same quantity surveyor who made the reference price in the first place?

Mr. Murphy

I would not think so. I think at that point we had a full design team on board, but I would need to check on that for you.

You say that the difference in the bid in respect of the nine people in the restricted contract procedure initially was £37,000.

Mr. Murphy

I have the exact figures before me.

Could you indicate the exact figures for each of them, from the highest to the lowest?

Mr. Murphy

From the highest to the lowest of the restrictive people?

Mr. Murphy

The contract awarded to Henry O'Rourke was £1.17 million.

That is correct.

Mr. Murphy

The next lowest was one of the restricted——

I am inquiring only about the restricted ones.

Mr. Murphy

They are £1.2 million, £1.42 million, £1.43 million, £1.64 million, £1.67 million, £1.72 million and £1.89 million.

They were the members of the restricted——

Mr. Murphy

That is correct.

Can you indicate the seven lowest tenders you got in the unrestricted category?

Mr. Murphy

In the unrestricted category, the lowest seven include £1.17 million, which is the one that was awarded, £1.2 million that you have, £1.2 million, £1.27 million, £1.36 million, £1.38 million and £1.38 million. The other two - £1.4 million and £1.4 million - follow.

The prices quoted by members in the restricted contest were significantly higher than the seven lowest bids submitted.

Mr. Murphy

No. Of the lowest nine, three were members of the restricted group.

Of the lowest seven, only one was a member of the restricted group.

Mr. Murphy

Yes, but eight and nine were members of the restricted group. The tenders in this open competition went as high as £2.49 million.

Somebody wanted to tender but did not want the job.

Mr. Murphy

No, the prices go up in a gradation from £1.89 million, £1.9 million, £1.99 million, £2.4 million and so on.

There were 36 people involved.

Mr. Murphy

Yes.

We only want the first seven. You are aware of the situation with the ODTR and the problems that arose in relation to the third mobile licence, especially the fact that a non-successful bidder went to the High Court on the basis that additional information went to the ODTR, by osmosis or whatever means, before a decision was taken. You say it is normal to clarify tendering information. Surely this would give an unfair advantage to those allowed to clarify tendering information after the tender has been submitted?

Mr. Murphy

If I can be precise on this, the clarifications are never general, they relate to specific things, such as whether VAT has been included - it may not have been indicated - or if there is a doubt by the tenderer or an error. Errors are dealt with in specific ways depending on the kind of error. That would have to be drawn to the attention of the tenderer. However, this is tender by tenderer; there is no sharing of information.

Has any occasion occurred where the tenderer has changed his tender price as a result of clarification?

Mr. Murphy

No. The thing that is likely to happen if there is some form of an omission from a tender is that the tenderer would be asked to stand over the price with the omission or to withdraw from the competition, but there would be no case where you would allow a tenderer to add to his price.

Would you allow him to deduct from his price?

Mr. Murphy

No, you would not, unless there were some reason for it that would apply to all those tendering.

Maybe there was something in the tender which was over-tendered for. If he put an iron railing on the wall which was not required, would that be brought to his attention?

Mr. Murphy

No. The tender must be on the actual specification. If the lowest tenderer gives more than the specification, we will take that from him. I am not absolutely sure of the Deputy's point.

Is there any opportunity for favouritism to be given or shown to any particular contractor in any way, shape or form?

Mr. Murphy

None whatsoever in this form of tendering.

In the restricted procedure, Mr. Murphy said that the Office of Public Works has a matrix and sees who comes into it.

Mr. Murphy

Yes.

Does he tell the various contractors exactly what are the criteria for being allowed to tender in a restricted competition?

Mr. Murphy

Yes. The Office of Public Works tells them what are the criteria. In tendering competitions where there are EU requirements the Office of Public Works is legally required to do so and to stick rigidly to the criteria which it specifies. The specification goes further than simple headings. We must indicate the weightings which we will apply to the various headings. All this is known to the tenderers.

Why was it necessary to have this reference price? The Office of Public Works is the agent for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, which has no clue about costs, and the Office of Public Works said it thought it would cost £3.57 million. When the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform looked at the tenders it put this as a reference price. Why is that procedure necessary?

Mr. Murphy

We must have some starting point. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform would have been aware of the basis for that particular reference point. That would be required to put together some kind of proposal, particularly to the Department of Finance, in terms of the financial authorities. We could not go with an open-ended proposal.

It is very unsatisfactory information to give to the Department of Finance.

Is there a standard rule of thumb expected cost in respect of the building of a prison, a wall or whatever the case may be and, if so, was this taken into account when vetting the tenders?

Mr. Murphy

Yes. We have cost norms, which are public, and it is possible to give the committee a copy of these. In the case of a prison wall it really does not come into the cost norms because it is such an unusually rare structure to build.

Would that therefore be a complete departure from all normal practices?

Mr. Murphy

No, it would not. It would have to be designed and then costed by a quantity surveyor, but it would not form part of the Office of Public Works's cost norms because it is too rare.

Assuming that the wall is ten feet high and one foot wide, for example, and it involves certain foundation works etc., is it possible to estimate the anticipated cost of that before going to tender?

Mr. Murphy

Yes, and that is precisely what was done here.

Is it that nothing showed up which would indicate a variation or that this involved poor value for money?

Mr. Murphy

The restricted tendering group would have been bidding. I read out the bids which they gave in the open competition. I have no reason to believe that they would give any other prices, even in a restricted competition.

In the case of a pre-selected exclusive group who will get preferential treatment in any such situation, is there a danger of building up an understanding within the group regarding how the contract might be priced?

Mr. Murphy

I agreed there is such a danger but it is our job to make sure that there are procedures in place which limit that danger.

What are the mechanism?

Mr. Murphy

The two mechanisms are: having open competition from time to time to test the market fully, and we do that——

What is meant by "from time to time"? How would Mr. Murphy fully test the market if it did not apply to the specific project?

Mr. Murphy

All it would do would be to put the market on notice that we were measuring what were the underlying prices and costs. In this case, as a matter of interest, the restrictive tendering would have been virtually no different from the open tendering in terms of the lowest price. That is the kind of assurance which Office of Public Works gets through the open tendering process.

To finish the answer, the other mechanism is by having wild cards - in other words, into the restrictive tendering process you drop somebody who simply would not qualify in the normal way for the restrictive tendering panel - which is what Office of Public Works did in the case of the Castlerea Prison proper.

And the wild card proved to be——

Mr. Murphy

Absolutely correct.

In response to questions from Deputy Ardagh, Mr. Murphy mentioned the discussions which might take place following submission of a tender, a bid etc. How is the Office of Public Works disposed towards the qualification of a tender? My understanding of tendering is that qualifying a tender is completely out of the question. By qualification, entering into negotiations with one party, if not with all parties on the same basis, completely negatives the tender. Is that not the case?

Mr. Murphy

Yes. A tenderer does not have the right to qualify a tender but I will come back to one situation where that does not apply and which has its own problems. In the normal course of events if a tenderer were to qualify his or her tender, it would very likely rule him or her out of the competition. It would depend on the kind of qualification but generally the Office of Public Works would not deal with somebody who was qualifying his or her tender. There is one case where the Office of Public Works must deal with a qualification, that is, where all the tenderers qualify in the same way.

I presume a full specification is furnished to the potential tenderer.

Mr. Murphy

It depends on the kind of tendering process. Deputy McCormack said that the Office of Public Works was not at the leading edge of tendering, and it certainly is. In the case of the wall, there would have been a full specification. In the case of the prison, it was client-led design. In other words, we drew roughly what we thought the prison should contain in terms of cells, catering facilities and canteens, all the functional relationships of the various elements, but it was up to the tenderer to tell us how he would produce these items. Therefore, the tenderer did not get a full specification at that point in terms of drawings. He did get a specification in terms of performance of materials and services. Therefore, there are different ways of tendering.

There are and I am very familiar with them. To what extent does discussion take place between the tenderer and the client after the closing date for submission of tenders?

Mr. Murphy

The simple answer to that is that we would only deal with the lowest tenderer.

The Office of Public Works only has discussions with one person at that stage?

Mr. Murphy

One person at any time, yes.

What does Mr. Murphy mean by "at any time"? In respect of a tender relating to a certain project——

Mr. Murphy

We would only deal with the lowest tenderer.

So you exclude all else?

Mr. Murphy

We exclude all else.

Discussions do not take place with any of the other interested parties?

Mr. Murphy

There are no discussions with the others. We start the clarifying process with the lowest tenderer. If, after clarification, if clarification is actually needed, the lowest tender remains the lowest and there are no queries, we do not open the other tenders.

I am at somewhat of a loss as a result of that reply. How does the Office of Public Works know the contents of the other tenders if they are not opened?

Mr. Murphy

We just have the price quoted. There is a covering note which gives the price, but the details of the tender are not opened.

So the detailed specifications are furnished to the tenderer——

Mr. Murphy

Yes.

——on foot of which the tender is made?

Mr. Murphy

Yes.

I presume the Office of Public Works then opens all the tenders?

Mr. Murphy

No, just the covering sheet.

Earlier, Mr. Murphy referred to the latitude that could be granted in certain cases. With regard to the building of the prison, he stated that a certain amount of latitude was given to the potential contractor.

Mr. Murphy

Yes.

How could the Office of Public Works decide which was going to be the best tender if all of them were not opened?

Mr. Murphy

Deputy, we are moving into different types of tendering. We are really discussing the wall around the prison. This matter involved a standard, open tendering procedure where the material is received in a sealed envelope with a covering sheet. It is only the covering sheets we look at and we then——

Award the contract.

Mr. Murphy

No, we then talk to the lowest tenderer to ensure the prices are arithmetically correct etc. and we open their tender. We would only go beyond the lowest tenderer if there is some problem with them. To open any of the other tenders, you have to obtain the permission of the tenderer.

There is nothing wrong with obtaining the permission of all the tenderers, opening each tender and assessing them on the basis of value for money etc.

Mr. Murphy

No.

For example, if the Office of Public Works is only going to open one tender, all a tenderer need do is drop the price to such an extent that they will be virtually guaranteed the contract. That may not stand up afterwards.

Mr. Murphy

No.

This matter has arisen on previous occasions. The Office of Public Works may then find that there is an overrun or an additional cost of perhaps up to 10%. Problems of this sort arise but they should not because they represent bad tendering practice.

Mr. Murphy

No. Let me be absolutely clear on this. There was no overrun on this contract. The contract was changed by the client at a particular point to add an anti-grappling overhang, which was priced and paid for. The fundamental contract was not altered. I wish it could be as simple as holding an open competition where we would obtain tenders. What the Deputy is touching on are the far more complex forms of tendering that we have developed in recent years such as client-led design——

Mr. Murphy

——design-build finance, design-build with staged payments etc. There are now any number of forms of tendering processes with their own rules. Even the criteria for the award of contracts is now different. In most of the simple cases the main criterion is the lowest price. However, it is the most economically advantageous tender that we would be looking at in the more complex contracting arrangements.

Is Mr. Murphy stating that the procedure has changed in respect of the section with which we are dealing?

Mr. Murphy

No, I am saying that there is now a whole toolbox of different forms of tendering and contracting and that is——

I am somewhat concerned about that toolbox because I believe water could seep into it and damage the equipment. In those circumstances, there is not much sense in just dealing with the cover note which accompanies a tender if it involves what has been indicated. An assessment of the proposal put forward by the tenderer would need to be carried out and compared to the contract price, otherwise the client would not be in a position to evaluate the most viable tender.

Acting Chairman

I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to comment on what has been said.

Mr. Purcell

I really only want to comment on one point, although there are a number that I could comment upon. There is one key point that I should bring to the attention of the committee in relation to the estimate for the perimeter wall. The impression might have been given that the £2.5 million was not really an estimate that was valid going into the tender process. Again, however, on the documents I have before me, there is a cost estimate No. 2 - perimeter wall and ancillary works - at working drawing stage and that was submitted on 23 April 1994. At that stage, the professional advice within the Office of Public Works was that the wall would cost £2.5 million. I ask the committee to bear in mind that the tender notice appeared in newspapers on 28 April which was only five days later. According to my papers, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, which was the client in this matter, was still working on the basis that it was £3.5 million at that stage because an internal minute suggests that the Department should not be notified of the reduction to £2.5 million.

Which eventually became £1.2 million.

Mr. Purcell

Yes, which eventually became £1.2 million.

To clarify, was the construction of the perimeter wall design and build project?

Mr. Murphy

No.

Does this matter highlight the fact that there are definite advantages in cost terms to proceeding with design and build projects——

Mr. Murphy

Absolutely.

——because the Office of Public Works's estimate is way above what the market players are prepared to pay?

Mr. Murphy

The actual design-build process throughout the prison programme has allowed us to complete that programme quickly.

For the information of those who may not be aware of its meaning, design and build means that the person who tenders for the contract actually draws the designs——

Mr. Murphy

Exactly.

——according to very loose guidelines and specifications. Is that correct?

Mr. Murphy

The actual performance specifications of materials, functional relationships etc. will be very tightly drawn. In the case of the prisons we also did a basic drawing so it is a variation on design-build that we call client led design.

Is it the intention that all projects in prisons, including the construction of walls, the emplacement of security devices etc., should proceed as design and build developments in the future?

Mr. Murphy

Depending on the particular project, I regard all these new developments in designing, contracting and tendering as a range of options that are available to us.

What are the potential savings, by using a design and build approach in respect of an entire project - for example, a prison - to the Office of Public Works, which would do the initial drawings in-house, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the client, and the State?

Mr. Murphy

The savings are, first, on time and on cost . The reason for the cost is that the actual developer will design to his strengths. If he can build in a particular way, he will do so. He will not have to try to do what a third party asks him to do, he will do what he is best at.

I do not have a figure for the prison building programme, but on the decentralised office programme we have already informed the committee that the savings range from 10% to 25%——

On design and build?

Mr. Murphy

——on design and build, vis-à-vis normal building. I also stated previously that it is my view that the standard Government contract form is an engine of price escalation. In other words, it actually gives rise to price increases or claims. For the design-build we have special contract forms that are much tighter.

They are more geared towards performance indicators. Is it the Office of Public Works's intention or that of the Department to use design and build throughout the system?

Mr. Murphy

Without speaking out of turn, the Department of Finance is quite happy to use design-build in its various forms where it is most appropriate but it also requires us - we are doing this - to apply the lessons of design-build to our normal building programme to the extent that we can.

Mr. Murphy provided the figures for the seven lowest tenders in the open competition and also provided the names of those who bid in the restricted tender. Will he outline the prices quoted for the restricted tender?

Mr. Murphy

We did not have a competition under the restricted rules.

Figures must have been quoted?

Mr. Murphy

No, we had not gone to tender under the restricted system. We had listed the people from whom tenders were to be sought but did not seek them.

Price then was not part of the restricted tendering process. Is that what Mr. Murphy is stating?

Mr. Murphy

No, it is not.

Therefore, there was no requirement on a tenderer to raise his or her price in the restricted tender?

Mr. Murphy

No, they simply were not asked for a price. We had only gone part of the way on the restricted tendering process. We had got to the point of listing——

I understand that but the matrix applied by the Office of Public Works to decide who partakes in a restricted tender does not include price.

Mr. Murphy

No, price only comes in later. Under the restricted system, the matrix only covers the capability——

And performance.

Mr. Murphy

Yes.

Is there an argument that price should also be included in the matrix for a restricted tender because this issue raises questions regarding viability? This is what the Comptroller and Auditor General is getting at. I do not suggest malfeasance on the part of the Office of Public Works in this case because, as Mr. Murphy stated, the difference is only £37,000.

Mr. Murphy

It is not even that.

However, a full appraisal cannot be made in the sense that price is not part of the matrix of indicators used in restricted tenders. I presume the Office of Public Works wishes to reserve the right to use the restricted tendering process in future, but if it is to be used it should allow for comparability on price because it could be the case that people on the restricted list will drop their prices in the knowledge that it is an open competition.

Mr. Murphy

In the restricted process——

We cannot judge that in this case because they were not asked for prices.

Mr. Murphy

No, they were not. The matrix gets one to the point of knowing who one will ask to bid and in a restricted competition the lowest bidder has the legal right to the contract.

Yes, but as part of the matrix of indicators under which tenders are picked from those who apply and placed on a short list to examine pricing, should indicative pricing be included in the matrix, at the very least, even if it is only a range of prices? For example, they could have costed the wall at Castlerea at between £1 million and £2 million.

Mr. Murphy

No, we would not have shown them the tender documentation. At the pre-matrix stage, we only ask people to show any interest.

Therefore, the matrix has no price content.

Mr. Murphy

It does not. The matrix cannot have.

Is it desirable to include indicative pricing?

Mr. Murphy

I do not think so. I am not sure what that would be based on.

It should not have been based on an estimate.

Mr. Murphy

If one did that one would be into an open competition. If one brings prices into the first stage——

Does it mean that one cannot exclude somebody who quotes a ludicrous price that is not near one's estimate?

Mr. Murphy

I do not think that is feasible.

Mr. Murphy has no figures. I have a series of questions for Mr. Aylward.

How has the average cost of keeping a prisoner been affected by the use of the new technology which was introduced in Castlerea?

Acting Chairman

Is that included in the brief, Deputy?

It is because a saving of £380,000 per annum was made in Castlerea which equates to the salaries of 20 prison warders because the technology used in Northern Ireland was introduced here. What was the average cost of keeping a prisoner? How much has this decreased as a result of introducing the new technology in Castlerea

It is a little difficult to give figures in reply. The overall average cost in 1998 was £53,405 per annum and, paradoxically, the more overcrowded a prison, the lower the cost but a social and human cost is associated with that level of overcrowding. It is difficult to draw accurate comparators. In Castlerea, which is a small prison, there is single cell occupancy which pushes the cost way up. The average cost of keeping a prisoner in Castlerea in 1998 was £60,579, which was above average, but it was dragged down greatly by the vast overcrowding in Mountjoy Prison. Without that equipment the average cost in Castlerea would have been far higher.

How much higher?

I could not do a calculation that I could stand over off the top of my head but in prisons outside Dublin which do not have overcrowding we normally have roughly a 1:1 ratio. In Castlerea the figure is far lower, it is about 149. I assure the Deputy that the figure would be nearer to 180 if it were not for those automated gates. One of the tragedies of the current locking system in the prisons is that so many officers spend their lives minding gates. That is not a constructive activity for the highly skilled, capable people we have, who should be doing more constructive work with the prisoners. There is a saving there that is not strictly measurable in cost terms but in terms of positive interaction with prisoners, the benefits of doing away with lockings and men staring through gates all day every day is incalculable.

Will Mr. Aylward prepare a report for the committee on the potential savings that could be achieved with the introduction of this technology throughout the prison system?

We are carrying out a prison by prison analysis. The project is at the halfway stage. Independent outside people are involved who have run major prisons in the UK. They are going through each prison gate by gate, post by post to see which posts can be eliminated and what savings can be achieved. We could make available to the committee copies of the five or six reports that have been done to date but to have a completely accurate overall picture it is a drawn out process and we probably will not have an outcome until this time next year. We are not concealing anything from anybody. These reports are made available within the Department and to the staff association representing prison officers as they are completed. We are working on that. It would be almost intuitive for any of us to realise that if people are taken off gates, those posts do not have to be manned around the clock or when prisoners are moving around. The rationale for this speaks for itself. We are moving on to further technology and a system called Atlas Lockings in the Midland prison, which is an even more sophisticated electronic system and means officers are not standing at gates with bunches of keys everywhere one turns.

Can we have those five or six reports?

I am still a little confused. I want clarification on the new figure which has arisen. As I understand it, the Office of Public Works acts as an agent for the Department of Finance in providing expert advice where the Department would not have that expertise available to it. I want to get the sequence right. It started with a reference price of the cost of the wall of £3.57 million. Then at some stage this changed to £2.5 million. Was this a more costed actual price? The wall was eventually completed satisfactorily at a contract price of £1.2 million. Was the Department of Finance kept fully informed by the Office of Public Works and was it paid for this service? Was the Department kept up to date with the cost which has now risen to £2.5 million? What does this figure represent and was it better than a reference price?

Mr. Murphy

The Department of Finance was part of the steering or interdepartmental committee on the prison programme and, as I understand it, would have been party to whatever was happening. I cannot give an exact reference to the basis of the £2.5 million figure. I think, but I cannot be sure, there were changes in the specification on that also. The big change was the foundation cost. The other factor which has not been mentioned is that every contractor in the country knew a prison building programme was starting because the Government had made announcements on it. Here was the first one and they were all up for it. That is why we got——

They were all up for it except the Office of Public Works which was advising the Department of Finance.

Mr. Murphy

We could not know how enthusiastic they would all be - one can see from the prices I quoted just how enthusiastic. I wish to deal with one point Deputy McCormack raised at the last meeting, which runs through what has been said here - management by the Office of Public Works of these tendering competitions. I defend my own corner and I can tell the committee how wonderful we all are. However, the committee does not have to credit that so we sought an ISO 9002 from the National Standards Authority for the project management service that runs these competitions. We got it in the weeks before Christmas, following a year's work. We are the first administrative unit in the Civil Service ever to get the international standard for quality of administration and process and it is independent and third party. I congratulate my staff and offer this to the committee as a third party view of how we are performing in that unit. It is quite a milestone as far as the Civil Service is concerned.

In relation to the reference points, the Comptroller and Auditor General stated that the £2.5 million figure arose from specifications etc. However, he also mentioned that an internal memo stated the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform was not to be told about this. What reference is that?

That was to be my next question.

I apologise for pre-empting the Deputy.

Mr. Murphy

Is there a question there?

Who wrote the memo which suggested the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform should not be informed of the decrease in the reference price from £3.6 million to £2.5 million?

Mr. Murphy

I am not aware of any memo on our files. I am prepared to check that for the Deputy but I am not aware of such a memo.

The Comptroller and Auditor General mentioned the memo.

Mr. Murphy

I am not sure whether it was one of——

Acting Chairman

I will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to comment.

Mr. Purcell

There were two points. One was the basis for the reduction from £3.5 million to £2.5 million and according to the official minute, this is due mainly to the shorter route adopted and, to a small extent, the deferral of a small proportion, including the branch approach road, to the later contract. Perhaps that clarifies the basis for that reduction. It was stated - there are two minutes - that it may be advisable not to declare to the client, in this case, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, that the estimated size of the perimeter is reduced and that there is thus a reduction in the cost of the whole project, until post-phase one work has been cost checked against its working drawings when prepared and certainly not until after the tenders for phase one had been received.

Who wrote that and why would they do so? Why would they withhold information?

Mr. Murphy

I am not sure. It does not matter who wrote that. I would regard that, from one of my staff, as being perfectly prudent. In other words, there is a package of money for the prison itself and for the wall. One knows that one part of the project will be cheaper. Of course one holds onto the overall budget package until one can be secure as to the cost of the second part of the package. One would not, at an early stage of any project, declare savings if one did not know what the next phase would cost. In the management of any project there are swings and roundabouts.

Did the Secretary General ever give information to the Minister as to the reference price of the wall?

Mr. Dalton

I do not know precisely. I suspect it has to be the case that when the Minister was considering whether this prison should be built and asking the Government for the necessary finance, the price of the wall would certainly have been cited because the Government would have had nothing to go on otherwise. I did not know until today that the Office of Public Works was aware of a lower price. I am not in a position to comment on the reasons and the logic it applied in not disclosing that to the client. Its judgment is, as Mr. Murphy said, that there is a package of money available and it is as well to preserve that until such time as one establishes further information - what one may have overrun in one place one may save somewhere else. I am not in a position to comment on that. It is a matter for the Office of Public Works to decide whether that is the better way to proceed.

If the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform was aware of a new reference price relating to the perimeter wall in Castlerea - I do not know what the percentage is but the reduction was from £3.57 million, which is nearer £3.6 million than £3.5 million, to £2.5 million - would it have been sensitive enough for Mr. Dalton to inform the Minister of that reduction?

Mr. Dalton

Yes, if the matter was being discussed. I am not sure what impact it would have had, unless the Minister was engaged in some discussion about the budget of the Department generally or had become entangled in some further debate as to whether this prison should go ahead. Then I suspect the Minister at the time would have used it as part of her armoury to say it was not as expensive as was thought. It would have been relevant in that respect. However, I am not aware that such a situation arose. In other words, this prison had been knocked back on one occasion and if the Minister was in the position of facing further doubts from the Government as to whether this project should go ahead, the Minister could say the position was not as bad as it seemed, it was not £3.57 million but £2.5 million. Iam not aware that such a situation arose. I am not aware it had any practical impact on construction.

I join with Mr. Murphy in congratulating his staff on attaining the quality of administration award. However, I am not happy with the care his Department takes in producing and providing advice to the Department of Finance. The staff would not get an award for that. Does the Office of Public Works charge the Department of Finance for this advice?

Mr. Murphy

We do not charge for the services we provide between Departments. They show up in departmental accounts as notional costs which the Deputy will see in our new accounts when they are published in the coming months. The costs are measured.

Would Mr. Murphy like to make a final comment on what Mr. Dalton has said about not being aware until today of the reduction by the Office of Public Works of the cost from £3.57 million to £2.5 million, from the reference price to the costed price?

Mr. Murphy

The only comment I would make is that our job in the Office of Public Works is to manage a project from conception to the end within parameters the Government lays down.

Is the beginning of that management process to give a reference price to the Department of Finance?

Mr. Murphy

It is the beginning of the process. There are various stages through the process where finance authorities are needed and where the prices have to——

Would Mr. Murphy concede there was a bad start to this matter?

Mr. Murphy

This was a splendid project which was superbly done, brought in on time, under cost——

That is not the question I asked. Would Mr. Murphy concede there was a bad start to this process?

Mr. Murphy

No, certainly not. I would much prefer that we had realistic estimates when starting out and that we could work down to cost saving measures as we proceeded with the project.

I apologise for interjecting. In response to an earlier question from Deputy Lenihan, the numbers in custody in Castlerea Prison as of yesterday were 192 offenders and the staff level was 149. I do not claim any greater service in terms of staff numbers than I cited earlier. It is just to give an accurate answer to the query.

Regarding building works such as prisons, what is the normal comparison between adaptation of an existing building and a greenfield site? Are standard or normal comparisons readily available?

Mr. Murphy

They are, but maybe not for prisons because we rarely carry out adaptation work. There was some in this case. For our overall building programme, I would much prefer a greenfield site or a cleared site. It tends to be cheaper. Adaptations tend to be as dear or dearer than greenfield site work.

I have one question for Mr. Murphy which I am sure has been answered. I had to attend another meeting and was trying to keep an eye on the monitor which is an imperfect way of conducting business. I am a big fan of the work of the Office of Public Works. However, I am puzzled about this wall. If one were building a complex architectural building in the Phoenix Park, I could understand the cost being out by £1 million or more. How can that happen when a wall is being built? Would I not be able to assess it myself? Surely building a wall is not that complex an undertaking.

Mr. Murphy

It is for prison building. If we had a wall similar to that in Wheatfield, it would have cost the £3.5 million we initially said it would cost. We have been through some of this. The specification changed and that gave rise to the cheaper type of wall. Both the specification and the methodology for building it changed.

I heard that and understand it, but I still do not understand how it explains the matter. If the job is considered adequate in retrospect, why was it not considered adequate at the planning stage? I do not know what is meant by building the Wheatfield wall. Does it mean the inmates of Wheatfield are more likely to want to burrow through the wall than would be the case in Roscommon? What is the point being made? If a wall of lesser quality was adequate for Roscommon in retrospect and was deemed by everyone to be adequate, why was it not adequate at the planning stage? Why did the foresight not exist to see that it would be adequate?

Mr. Murphy

When the Wheatfield wall costs were extrapolated to give the £3.5 million for the Castlerea wall, we had no plans and no demand from our client as to what type of wall they needed. I will not comment on the adequacy of walls at different prisons. That is a matter for the client on which to instruct us. The wall we built at Castlerea was not an adequate wall. It was one precisely to the client's requirements. When we made out the reference price of £3.5 million, we extrapolated the Wheatfield wall price. We had no plans or instructions. We had nothing. Someone asked us what a prison wall would cost. All we could say was, if it were the same as Wheatfield, it would cost £3.5 million. There is nothing more to it.

I see. I thank Mr. Murphy.

Mr. Dalton

It might be helpful to acknowledge that everything is based on the Wheatfield wall and the cost associated with it. Looking back on it, it could be compared with the Great Wall of China. The Wheatfield wall is one we would only deem necessary if we were dealing with a high security prison. Fortunately, I did not oversee the building of the wall, but it is one we would be unlikely to build again because it would withstand the type of attack we are unlikely to experience. If we were dealing with a high security prison, it would be a different matter. The Wheatfield wall in colloquial terms is something else.

It is fit for Alcatraz.

Mr. Dalton

While I said I was not aware of the £2.5 million until today, I became aware of it when the Comptroller and Auditor General reported it. We were not aware of it at the time. I say this for complete accuracy. It does not affect the substance of what I said apart from that.

Acting Chairman

We note paragraphs 17, 18 and 19. We will move on to the Office of Public Works. The remaining paragraphs will be taken on 3 February as agreed. I apologise to Mr. Dargan that we could not take more today.

The witnesses withdrew.

Vote 10 - Office of Public Works.

Vote 44 - Flood Relief.

Mr. B. Murphy (Chairman, Office of Public Works) further examined.

Acting Chairman

Mr. Murphy, will you introduce your officials, please?

Mr. Murphy

Certainly. You have just met Sean Duncan on my right, Tony Smyth, director of engineering services, is on my left, Gerry Doyle, our new head of accounts in the Kilkenny office, is beyond him and Joe Farrell, accountant, is beyond him again.

Acting Chairman

We are dealing with Vote 10, Office of Public Works and Vote 44, Flood Relief. We have no paragraphs so we will go straight in.

Lest people get confused, I am looking at the expenditure in 1998 and then in subsequent years for the Houses of the Oireachtas, Leinster House. I presume that is £3 million in 1998 and the £22 million subsequently is for the extension to the rear of Leinster House.

Mr. Murphy

Yes.

You are not going to make facilities much more luxurious?

Mr. Murphy

We would hope to. That is actually a separate job, but we are going to bring you up to proper modern standards. We promised that. That is not just the actual extension - that covers the whole campus.

So what is the cost of the extension?

Mr. Murphy

It breaks down into £25 million for the extension and then we are going to spend roughly £6 million to bring the rest of the complex up to the same standard.

I have not kept track of this. What is envisaged in this extension? Is it office accommodation for every TD or representative to have an office to themselves? You may know we have our own overcrowding problems here. It is not just in Mountjoy.

Mr. Murphy

What we have in the new extension are committee rooms, which will certainly be of a better standard than this, and party rooms, and the rest of the complex is for offices for Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas. It is not up to us to say what Members or who.

Can all the Members be accommodated in the new extended building?

Mr. Murphy

No, but the intention is that throughout the campus we would reach the point where every Member would have his or her own room.

What is the timescale for achieving that?

Mr. Murphy

The main extension project is due to be completed by the beginning of the first term of the Dáil in October next. The building works should finish by the end of September. I might have to come back to you on that, as there are certain problems in that regard of which Deputies may be aware. The upgrading of the rest of the accommodation is to take place during summer.

So next October——

Mr. Murphy

Everything should be done.

Lest the media gets confused, are there crèches, nightclubs or bars in this building?

Acting Chairman

The Deputy has his room selected.

Mr. Murphy

There will be a crèche, certainly.

This was mooted years ago. There will be a crèche?

Mr. Murphy

The crèche will not be in the extension or in the 1966 block, it will be here in this block.

Hopefully we will keep this room.

Mr. Murphy

Not necessarily in this, but it is an idea.

What is the cost of running your property portfolio, taking into account rentals and maintaining the buildings?

Mr. Murphy

There are two elements. There is the rental first of all, which is running at about £30 million. I will give you the exact amount now. As regards the estimate provision for 1998, the outturn in 1998 was £35 million and for 1999 it is in the same order. I suppose it is worth saying apropos of that total that there are huge changes in rental costs. Our average cost in 1998 was £11 per square foot, but by the end of 1999 it was £13 per square foot and the new rentals are in the £25 to £30 range, which is absolutely extraordinary.

So what are you allowing, looking forward to next year? What uplift will we see in the cost of renting buildings?

Mr. Murphy

We are looking at 50%. It is really remarkable. The five year rents are being reviewed at an uplift of 100%. These are pure market forces.

You are saying there is a general 50% uplift in the cost to the State of renting various forms of accommodation.

Mr. Murphy

Which may well give you the reason we are so actively acquiring accommodation.

Where there are five year review clauses it is 100%.

Mr. Murphy

Yes.

The ones you are negotiating this year, presumably?

Mr. Murphy

Exactly.

How then does the average come down to 50% in those circumstances?

Mr. Murphy

The portfolio has a great spread between storage, warehouses, office accommodation of different types, long-term leases and so on. It is a huge mix.

In terms of value, though, perhaps you will give us some insight into the portfolio in value terms. When you talk about 100% in five years, if the offices are on very valuable sites that must be occurring in what we call high street type locations, such as this building or whatever building adjacent to it that you rent, how is that as an extra percentage cost of your overall cost increase?

Mr. Murphy

It depends on the timing. The five year rent reviews are a continuing process, so I cannot give an exact——

To what extent are you market exposed in terms of the five year contract? The five year contract would be typical market——

Mr. Murphy

We are fully exposed.

No, what is the extent of your exposure, for example, what percentage in value terms of your portfolio is out there in the open market, not in the odd arrangements such as ten year or peppercorn leases?

Mr. Murphy

I would say about one third of our portfolio.

What are the plans to cut that through purchase? Are you seeking extra money from the Exchequer to get into the market to purchase?

Mr. Murphy

Yes, we are. Last year we got about £50 million. We spent £50 million on purchases last year and in 1998 we spent £66 million. That was made up mainly of the buy-up of the decentralised offices. All these save us in the long-term as the leases are generally full repairing leases, so we do not accumulate additional maintenance costs. By purchasing we simply get rid of a debt burden.

Giving one third of your portfolio to five year rents——

Mr. Murphy

Or exposed.

——or exposed, have you a target percentage to reduce that?

Mr. Murphy

No, the conventional wisdom was that you would keep half a property portfolio owned and half leased. We have gone away from that totally. Because of the changes in the market on the rental side we are trying to reduce the rented element as low as we can. The purchasing depends greatly on the willingness of the landlord to sell and in present conditions they are not that willing to sell.

When you say——

Acting Chairman

A final question. I will let the Deputy in again.

When you say there has been a 100% increase in the five year leases and a 50% increase in the average rental cost, do both of those come out at a figure?

Mr. Murphy

We have the actual rental subhead here for this year's rental provision. We have it at £39 million.

Mr. Murphy

No, that is the full rental cost. That would have been much higher but for the purchases last year and the buy-out of the decentralised offices. We would have been talking, perhaps, of £10 million more.

I note under subhead H1 the progress in drainage and localised flood relief schemes. The legislation was passed in 1995, I think, enabling the Office of Public Works to be involved in localised flood relief schemes. How is that progressing or how many schemes have been completed?

Mr. Murphy

If the Deputy wishes I can give him a list and go through them for him.

Mr. Murphy

I can give the Deputy a list which gives the nine current schemes.

Apart from the nine current schemes, there was a flood of applications in 1995 and 1996, particularly in my county. Have any of those applicants been examined, assessed or designed, or did we just stick with the nine schemes that used up all the budget at that time? Had all the budget been used up at that time?

Mr. Murphy

No, the bad news is that the nine schemes the Government approved of are taking up all the funding. The Deputy is right in that we have applications for several hundred other schemes but there is no funding for them at the moment.

Are those applicants still awaiting a response to their applications while, in several instances, watching the water coming into their houses and blocking the roads in my county?

Mr. Murphy

I do not think we have received formal applications. I think the way we made out the number of other possible areas was through a consultancy by Ove Arup which set out criteria that we applied. They would cover the areas the Deputy is talking about.

What is accepted as a formal application?

Mr. Murphy

We do not have such but——

Let us suppose people want to get involved in a localised flood relief scheme, what have they to do to get themselves on this waiting list after the nine schemes that have been in progress since 1995 are finalised?

Mr. Murphy

My advice would be to go to the local authority first. One of the changes we have made with local flood relief schemes is to do only what local interests want. We will not come in and do something odd or strange that people do not want, such as building banks or whatever. We are more than happy to take direction from local interest groups so the local authority is the focus for most of these groups.

Would local authorities be subject to expenditure on that?

Mr. Murphy

No, we would do the work for them if it is the appropriate work. In south Galway, for instance, we found that relocation was one option which was exceptionally successful. I think only two houses in south Galway were flooded in the most recent floods. There were plenty of floods but only two dwellings were actually affected. There are other things which can be done. The local authority, in giving planning permission for housing schemes, needs to take advice on where floods are likely to happen.

I cannot correct what has happened in the past but I am very familiar with this issue and I represented that area at the time of the major flood in 1995 in south Galway. It is in a different constituency now but I am still interested in the welfare of the people there. Will Mr. Murphy enlighten me on the £2.5 million announced in the recent budget which it was later indicated would be spent in County Galway? Are there enough staff in the Office of Public Works to plan and implement real flood relief schemes instead of compiling reports, flood studies etc?

Mr. Murphy

We have promised publicly in Gort that we will not be engaging in any further studies and that action is needed.

We definitely have enough studies.

Mr. Murphy

In Gort we put together a group representative of the ICMSA, the IFA, the local authority, Dúchas and ourselves. That sounds large but there are only five or six people on the group. The intention is that the group, mainly representative of local interests, will tell us what it wants done, and that may not involve river drainage. There may well be some river drainage involved but there could well be road raising, relocation of the couple of families still affected or any number of things. We will listen to what people want and allow that to happen.

I welcome the assurance that there will be no further expenditure on surveys. The last one cost £1 million which would have given flood relief benefit to the five flooded locations in south Galway which are flooded each year. Raising roads would not solve the problems in south Galway. There is no point in raising a road when there is water on both sides of it as that will only block more water from passing down. Part of the problem in Galway has been caused by raising roads without making provision for letting water flow to the sea which is the ultimate solution. None of the areas is more than four, five or six miles from the sea. We can take it that this £2.5 million will be spent on real work.

Mr. Murphy

On real work, absolutely.

I welcome that.

I wish to inquire about the Chester Beatty clock tower. The cumulative expenditure to 31 December 1997 was £5.3 million and a further £94,000 was spent in 1998. Was the State reimbursed in any way when the library was sold?

Mr. Murphy

We were involved in the early stages of negotiations on that but the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands took up the negotiations. I can come back to the Deputy when I find out the information.

Will Mr. Murphy please do so?

Mr. Murphy

I certainly will. I do not know what the arrangement was.

Am I correct in saying that the money was in relation to the property sold on Shrewsbury Road?

Mr. Murphy

Exactly, yes.

I wish to refer to a couple of items on the list of rented properties sent to the committee by Mr. Murphy. They are in alphabetical order. One is Apollo House - floors two to four and five to seven. The expiry date on both is 20/12. The area in both is the same - 15,900 square feet - yet the rent on floors two to four is £249,500 while the rent on the same space on floors five to seven is £139,000. There is a huge difference between the two and yet the expiry date seems to be similar. What happened there?

Mr. Murphy

I can check that for the Deputy but the most likely explanation is that we took the floors on different dates and the rent review date for the cheaper space has not arrived yet.

There is a small property on Castleforbes Road of 2,500 square feet with a rent of £85,000. That is well over £30 per square foot. What property is on Castleforbes Road which would have such a rent?

Mr. Murphy

Straight off I do not know what that property is.

It expired in January 1999 so I presume it is going on.

Mr. Murphy

I will have to come back to the Deputy on that. I had better check it.

Will Mr. Murphy come back to us on that?

Mr. Murphy

Yes.

There is an Irish Life roof licence - £18,150. What are the rights under the roof licence?

Mr. Murphy

I do not know. I will have to come back to the Deputy on that.

I see that there are a number of car parks. I wish to refer to the Merrion Square car park which is £10,000. How many car spaces are there in that?

Mr. Murphy

I will find out that information for the Deputy. We actually have car park information by Departments but, unfortunately, not by car park space.

What information do you have on car parks?

Mr. Murphy

I have the numbers of car parks by Department.

Do you have the average cost per car park space in the Dublin area?

Mr. Murphy

Yes. The total number of spaces in the Dublin area is 3,370, of which we own 1,640.

That is very close to 50:50.

Mr. Murphy

It is. The leasing cost for all the spaces is £1.667 million. The cost per space would be approximately £1,000.

What level of officer would one need to be to get a car park space?

Mr. Murphy

I have two figures here but the Deputy will not thank me for giving them to him.

Go ahead in the interests of openness, transparency and accountability.

Mr. Murphy

It varies from one Department to another and within the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Please do not withhold any information.

Mr. Murphy

One civil servant in five is entitled to a car parking space. The spaces are allocated according to different principles. Some Departments operate a first come, first served system, some have arrangements where spaces are allocated on a three months on, three months off basis and some are allocated on a date of application basis. There is no common rule. I have not given the Deputy the other figure. The figure for the Houses of the Oireachtas is 121.

Has work been carried out on the new benefit in kind referred to in the recent budget? In regard to the three months on, three months off arrangement, for example, it would be difficult to calculate the benefit in kind involved for civil servants generally, whatever about within the Houses of the Oireachtas.

In regard to the Tallaght-Belgard industrial estate, £38,000 is being paid for an area of 750 square feet. The figure of over £20 per square foot seems very high for industrial space. Perhaps Mr. Murphy could come back to us on that.

Mr. Murphy

Yes.

The issue of flooding was referred to by Deputy McCormack and others. The Office of Public Works has overall responsibility for, and is the ultimate authority on, drainage throughout the country. Is that correct?

Mr. Murphy

Not quite.

Mr. Murphy

We have powers in regard to drainage and localised flooding but we have no obligation to do anything about them. We only do something if we are asked.

When you switched on the television over the past month or so and saw vast areas of the countryside covered with water and heard a general discussion on people's homes flooded, not just this year but on a number of occasions in recent years, and about greenhouse gases, global warming and rising floodwaters, given that a considerable proportion of this country is well above sea level compared with Holland, for example, a considerable proportion of which is below sea level, did alarm bells go off? Have alarm bells gone off in the Office of Public Works with a view to assessing how best the problem could be tackled as opposed to withdrawing from the problem and conceding to the rising waters?

Mr. Murphy

There are two elements to this problem, the main river stems——

Mr. Murphy: --

and the arterial drainage end of things. Current Government policy is not to undertake arterial drainage schemes. That has been the case since 1983. On local flood relief, our work has moved from the large arterial schemes to localised flooding relief in recent years. In these cases, we speak to the local authorities involved and do what they want us to do, provided we have the necessary funding. In the case of the most recent Shannon flooding, we immediately contacted the local engineer. Our staff carried out water measurements at the scene and informed us of what was happening. The local engineer and local authority did not seek assistance from us. The county manager has asked me to engage with him to see what can be done in the long-term but no assistance was sought to deal with the immediate flooding problem.

Then why do we hear complaints about flooding? Why has that become an issue? I anticipate possible serious expenditure at some stage in the not too distant future with increased development and disruption of subterranean water courses. Measures must be taken to address that problem. We have heard in recent years of flash floods and of ten, 50 and 100 year floods. Apparently, the 50 year floods are now occurring almost on an annual basis. I put it to Mr. Murphy that it is past time for the overall authority with responsibility for drainage and hydrology, whatever that may be, to make a recommendation which will ensure that the Office of Public Works is well covered in the event of some future catastrophe. When vast areas of the countryside are covered with water, a serious pollution threat arises from the intermingling of fresh water with water from sewerage and sanitary systems. That ultimately leads to a very serious situation as far as the European institutions are concerned. Those institutions are now taking action against the country, Ireland Inc., in relation to this precise issue. Surely Mr. Murphy recognises that the Office of Public Works has a serious responsibility to address this issue?

Mr. Murphy

I agree that it is an issue but it is one which impinges on various other issues. One of the main issues is that the original arterial drainage schemes were based on return to farm income, namely, increasing farm income by increasing the available acreage. That is no longer a factor.

What are the factors? Is there now a presumption that the Office of Public Works should withdraw and let the areas flood? There will be a price to be paid for that. It may well be that we are dealing with a policy of evolution here, a policy which is often based on advice from bodies such as the Office of Public Works. I would contest that advice.

Mr. Murphy

The advice is based, as it has always been, on the cost benefit, the rate of return which can be derived by investing money into these kinds of schemes. The cost benefit has simply gone the wrong way in any scheme which we have examined recently.

If one follows through on that, over the course of the next 20 years certain parts of the country will become uninhabited.

Mr. Murphy

It is true that part of our approach to this problem in south Galway, for example, is to relocate people. That is a cheaper option. From the point of view of many of the families involved, relocation is viewed as the preferable option.

It does not just apply to south Galway, it applies throughout the country. If an assessment of the water table throughout the country can be carried out the Department should do so. I hazard a guess that this is rising unsatisfactorily. Given the impending action by European institutions against the State, regardless of the underlying policy - it may be nice to see vast areas of land covered with water but I am not sure it is a good idea - I strongly urge you to assess the problem within your area to see how this can be resolved.

Mr. Murphy

I will convey that message.

Acting Chairman

Regarding rentals, where is Tralee old bank?

Mr. Murphy

I will come back to the chairman on that.

Acting Chairman

Will you have just an office at 7 Ashe Street. You have four properties in Tralee.

Mr. Murphy

I presume so.

Acting Chairman

You have a property at Greenview Terrace. I am concerned about Tralee old bank and the figure of £49,400.

Mr. Murphy

I will find out where that is.

Acting Chairman

The committee notes Votes 10 and 44.

The witness withdrew.

The committee adjourned at 12.32 p.m.
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