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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 27 Mar 2003

Vol. 1 No. 13

Medical Card Scheme.

Mr. Michael Lyons (Regional chief executive officer, Eastern Regional Health Authority), Ms Maureen Windle, (CEO, Northern Area Health Board), Mr. Pat Donnelly (CEO, South-Western Area Health Board), Mr. Gavin Maguire (CEO, East Coast Area Health Board), Mr. Paul Robinson, (CEO, North-Eastern Health Board), Mr. Pat Harvey, (CEO, North-Western Health Board), Mr. Seán Hurley, (CEO, Southern Health Board), Mr. Pat McLoughlin (CEO, South-Eastern Health Board), Mr. Stiofán de Búrca (CEO, Mid-Western Health Board), Dr. Sheelah Ryan, (CEO, Western Health Board), Mr. Patrick Gaughen (CEO, Midland Health Board), Mr. Tom Mooney (Deputy Secretary, Department of Health and Children) and Mr. Patrick Burke (Chief Officer, General Medical Services (Payments) Board) called and examined.

I welcome everybody to the committee. We will deal today with medical card duplication and the upkeep and accuracy of the medical card database.

Witnesses should be aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege. Members' and witnesses' attention should be drawn to the fact that from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 grants certain rights to persons identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These include the right to give evidence, the right to produce or send documents to the committee, the right to appear before the committee either in person or through a representative, the right to make a written and oral submission, the right to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the introduction of documents and the right to cross-examine witnesses. For the most part, these rights may only be exercised with the consent of the committee. Persons being invited before the committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified during the course of proceedings who are not present may have to be made aware of these rights and provided with the transcript of the relevant part of the proceedings, if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice.

Notwithstanding this provision in legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provision within Standing Order 156 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

As there is a vote in the Chamber, we will suspend for 15 minutes.

Sitting suspended at 10.40 a.m. and resumed at 10.55 a.m.

I welcome the witnesses from the health boards and ask them to identify themselves.

Mr. Michael Lyons

I am accompanied by Ms Bernadette Kiberd, the service planner for primary care in the ERHA, and Mr. Brian Manning, the ICT manager in the Eastern Health Shared Service, who performs the ICT work for the medical card system in the region.

Ms Maureen Windle

I am from the Northern Area Health Board and with me is Mr. Michael Walsh, the assistant chief executive, and Mr. Adrian Charles, my general manager.

Mr. Pat Donnelly

With me is Billy Quinn, general manager in one of our community service areas and responsible for leading this project in our area, and Karen Healy, who is involved in the health boards executive medical cards project.

Thank you. I now ask those from the East Coast Area Health Board to introduce themselves.

Mr. Gavin Maguire

With me is Martin Gallagher, assistant chief executive officer, and Gerry McKiernan, a general manager in one of our community areas.

I now call on the representatives of the North-Eastern Health Board to introduce themselves.

Mr. Paul Robinson

I am the chief executive officer. With me is Aidan Browne, assistant chief executive officer, and Seoirse Ó hAodha, the finance officer.

You are all very welcome, and I hope we have a good debate. I ask the Department of Health and Children officials to introduce themselves.

I am deputy secretary of the Department. With me is Bernard Carey, director, and Dermot McCann, principal officer in the finance unit.

I call on the GMS officials to introduce themselves.

Mr. Patrick Burke

I am chief officer. With me is my IT manager, Ivan McConkey, and my head of statistics, Carmel Burke.

I ask Mr. Purcell to initiate the discussion.

Mr. John Purcell

I shall start by briefly recapping on the system for issuing medical cards. Under present legislation, health boards have the responsibility for making decisions on granting medical cards. In practical terms, a medical card is automatically granted if the person is within the prescribed income limits agreed collectively by the chief executive officers or, since July 2001, if the person is 70 years of age or over, regardless of means. There are other categories, but these would cover the vast bulk of card holders.

A health board may also, on a discretionary basis, grant a medical card to a person where, for example, he or she has a medical condition requiring frequent visits to a GP, which would impose an undue financial hardship on the individual. Each health board has a computer system on which it records details of persons who are approved for medical cards. Details of new approvals, deletions and amendments are sent via electronic media each month by the health boards to the GMS payments board to update its database of eligible persons. The GMS payments board uses the information provided to arrange for the issue of new cards and to underpin payments they make on the health boards' behalf to GPs, pharmacists, dentists, opticians and so on.

The GMS payments board is dependent on the health boards for the validity and accuracy of the data on which capitation payments to GPs are made. These payments are made on the basis of the number of medical card holders on individual GPs' panels and are made at various rates, depending on factors such as age, sex and distance from the surgery. Capitation is not dependent on the number of visits a card holder makes, but the greater likelihood of older people attending a GP more frequently was a factor in the higher capitation rates conceded in the recent agreement for the over 70s.

Exchequer contributions to GPs' superannuation and practice support are also influenced by the numbers on the individual doctor's panel, so it is not just related to the capitation fees. As over €100 million per annum in capitation fees alone depends on the data maintained by the health boards and the GMS payments board, it is of paramount importance that the underlying information is always up to date and accurate and that systems are in place to ensure that this is so. What emerged in the aftermath of the extension of the medical card scheme to the over 70s was a stark illustration that the systems in place left a lot to be desired, and the number availing of the new scheme turned out to be far in excess of what was expected. It confirmed what had been suspected within the GMS payments board for some time - that there were serious inaccuracies in the health board and GMS databases. The main manifestation of the problem was the existence on the databases of cardholders who were dead, had moved outside the jurisdiction or were included in more than one GP's panel.

There were also some cases where the cardholders had entered long stay hospital care but had not been removed from the panels. An examination has been carried out in all of the health boards into the level of invalid cardholders on the databases, and the Secretary General of the Department of Health and Children wrote to the committee on 19 February to give a summary of the position at that time. This showed that 30,592 medical cards had been removed from the system as a result of the examination across the health boards, with the likelihood of more being removed as the work progressed. The vast bulk of the cards removed related to the over 70s. I note from papers submitted to the committee yesterday that the total number of cards removed from the system on foot of the examination has risen to 39,491. On the basis of the work done to date, the amount over-paid in capitation fees to GPs, which had been tentatively estimated by the GMS payments board at €12 million per annum, is now estimated by the health boards to be significantly lower than that.

Some extra work remains to be carried out in the Eastern Regional Health Authority in particular, and some of the other health boards, but the current figure is something of the order of €6 million. That is €6 million altogether, compared to the earlier estimate of €12 million per annum. The committee may wish to explore the reasons for the wide variation between the estimates. The fundamental questions to be answered are what went wrong and what is being done to avoid a recurrence.

This is not a new problem. In 1998, in the course of the introduction of laminated medical cards, all card holders were written to in order to confirm relevant details. As a result, the GMS payments board estimated that approximately 30,000 card holders were removed from the databases. The exercise also indicated a problem of duplicate cards. In trying to understand what went wrong, it is necessary to point out a few things. Each health board operates its own medical card database, using stand alone systems. They do not have any automatic means of accessing the GMS payments board database to determine whether an applicant for a medical card already has one.

Up until late 2001, within the health boards, fundamental management controls were not, for the most part, routinely applied. I am thinking of procedures in relation to death notices, review of inactive cases and so on. In retrospect, the Department's advice to health boards back in 1995, that cards for the over 70s should only be reviewed every five years, has backfired somewhat. The Department envisaged that there should be some compensating controls, but they do not seem to have been effective where they were implemented, if implemented at all. The combination of these factors certainly contributed to the build up of this problem.

The gradual dilution of the requirement in the contract with GPs for certification that their lists were up to date did not help either. The fall-out from the budget underestimation has served as a much needed wake up call for all concerned. The warning signs had been there. Back in 1998, a medical card review group reported that the IT systems then in use were largely structured to support individual payment schemes and were generally not integrated to support the quality of management information and decision making required within the health boards. These systems lacked sophisticated data mining, trending and analysis tools. Issues such as claims verification, unusual practices, patterns and fraud and abuse were difficult to identify in order that timely action could be taken. That is more or less a direct quote from the report by that group.

Could Mr. Purcell repeat that again?

Mr. Purcell

Issues such as claims verification, unusual practices, patterns and fraud and abuse were difficult to identify in order that timely action could be taken. Although there has been some movement with the development of its central client eligibility index, which has yet to be rolled out, real change has been slow to materialise in this area. Now that the scale of the avoidable financial cost to the State is becoming apparent, the necessary sense of urgency and commitment to put things right seems to be forthcoming on all sides. That should be acknowledged though, I think, in the longer term the solution is likely to be found within the framework for the delivery of e-Government services.

I invite Mr. Lyons, chief executive officer, Eastern Regional Health Board to make a statement on behalf of all the health boards in his region.

Mr. Lyons

The ERHA and the three area health boards in the east - the East Coast Area Health Board, the Northern Area Health Board and the South-Western Area Health Board - have submitted a detailed joint report to the joint committee in relation to the administration of the medical card system in the region.

The report sets out the co-ordinated process which is followed in the region to address the matters raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General in Chapter 9.1, of Volume 1 of his 2001 annual report; the outcome of the review of the medical card list to delete from the list cards in respect of deceased persons, duplicates and cards held by persons who had left the area and those in long-term care; the exercise to determine dates of death or dates of withdrawal from the GMS scheme and the calculation of overpayments made in respect of medical cards deleted from the list; the review process for medical cards being implemented by the three area health boards to ensure every medical card has both the review date and an expiry date. This is at appendix 1 of the report submitted.

The process to address the issues raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General consisted of an internal audit conducted between January and March 2002 of the over-70s non-means tested medical cards which set out six action points to be implemented in the region. The audit is at appendix 2 of the report submitted.

The implementation of the six actions commenced in April 2002, under the supervision of a team of managers from the ERHA and the three area health boards and executed by personnel in the ten community care areas in the three area health boards. The normal teams working on medical cards in the community care areas were supplemented to deal with this as a matter of urgency.

The implementation of the six actions addressed two key areas, the validation of the medical card register against the projected figures from the Central Statistics Office for the number of over 70s in the region and the validation of the register in respect of potential duplicate cards, cards held by deceased persons, inactive cards and nursing home lists.

The validation exercise is designed to ensure compatibility between the medical card list in the region and the census figure for the over 70 age group projected by the CSO. The current position on this is that in September 2002 the gap between the two figures was 11,674 and it is 3,403 currently. This has been achieved by a variety of actions including writing to 102,000 people over the age of 75, to establish if their medical cards were still current. Work is ongoing, as a priority, to achieve a balance between the GMS coverage and the CSO projection. This is somewhat complicated by the ongoing addition of new medical card holders to the list on the one hand and fluctuation in the over 70s population on the other. To date, the validation exercise has resulted in a total of 18,880 cards being removed from the medical card list. A proportion of these will be routine removals and will not incur any overpayment. Comprehensive investigation of the deleted cards to compute any overpayments is ongoing. At this stage, it has been possible to carry out an overpayment computation where, for example, dates of deaths are known. The estimated overpayment to date for these, for the eastern region is €1.99 million. Work is ongoing to establish dates of death etc. in respect of the balance. However, a rough estimate of the overpayment in these cases is €948,000, giving an approximate overpayment in the region of €3 million.

The next steps in the exercise are to complete the validation of the mail shot by investigating the non respondents which number 11,631; to complete the processing of the file on the deleted cards and to implement, on an ongoing basis, the control and management activity set out in appendices 1 and 4 of the report to the committee.

This will enable the database to be fully updated, overpayments to be calculated and the database to be maintained on an up-to-date current basis.

Thank you, Mr. Lyons. I invite Mr. Robinson of the North-Eastern Health Board to make a statement.

Mr. Robinson

We have submitted an opening statement. With your permission I shall speak through it and summarise it because there is some repetition.

That is fine. That you, Mr. Robinson.

Mr. Robinson

The first part of our statement deals with entitlement and Mr. Purcell has covered that issue in his opening statement. In the North-Eastern Health Board we have a population of just under 345,000. Of these 108,000 approximately, 31% have medical card eligibility. The GMS population figures represent 66,996 cards and of this about 25,000 cards are reviewed every year. This review mechanism is based on such criteria as age, occupation, mobility, income source, dependency, education, family circumstances etc. There is significant activity involved in maintaining the register up to date where the average changeover of cards per year is 13,000.

Since all persons aged 70 became eligible this was the first time that a comparison could be made of a distinct measurable medical card population cohort with census data, even though it was five years. Mr. Purcell has dealt with some of the actions taken. In respect of the north eastern region we estimated that approximately 2,500 persons over 70 years of age would qualify under the new provisions. The database indicated that there were 6,057 new registrations on or before l July 2001 and on that basis 3,556 would have been seen as inappropriate registrations. We participated in the national investigation scheme mentioned by Mr. Purcell. The North-Eastern Health Board, in addition to the existing medical cards team which consists of 13 staff based in five offices across the region, has put in a project manager and additional administrative resources, between three and six persons as necessary. The main actions were assignment of a project team, led by a senior executive officer and reporting directly to the assistant chief executive officer, key control and risk points in the card cycle were identified and a control strategy was developed.

Reference has been made to the letter issued by the Department in 1995. Prior to that we reviewed those in the same way as all others. What we did in the alternative approach was to use field staff such as public health nurses and community welfare officers. In hindsight that process has proved ineffective and we are now dealing with that.

Most of the incorrect registrations related to people over 70 years of age who had either died or had moved out of the area. Another factor has been that there is no explicit requirement on GPs to notify changes in their panels. During the review we found that a significant number of persons who in previous investigations had been reported as alive were deceased and vice versa. The problem here is that there is no unique identifier in use. While the system is on computer, one depends on manual systems to follow through on this.

Another problem is that deaths registered do not automatically come through. That will change when the general registry office has the registration of deaths, births and marriages fully computerised. I understand that will happen next year. In the meantime certificates have to be accessed manually and because of proximity to Dublin, many of those in the Louth-Meath area will die in hospitals in the Dublin area. There is no automatic feedback on death registration.

The computer systems, neither in 1995 nor today, do not support the exchange of electronic data. That has been identified also by the comptroller as a defect. Our board is currently piloting the central client eligibility, CCEI, index with the GMS payments board and we hope that when that rolls out, it will improve the position. The key to it, however, will be the use of the PPSN number.

The decision to extend eligibility to all those over 70 has increased control as many of the new medical card holders were not within the previous systems of notification, such as the Department of Social and Family Affairs.

We would make the point that there has been a major increase in population in our area in the six year period of 12.7%. The full details of the census will not be available until about July of this year so we are still working on estimates, particularly for the County Meath area, which is included in part of the eastern region by the Central Statistics Office.

A review of the entire over 70 database was completed following which we cancelled 4,900 cards. They include normal deletions as well as the special process. We now have a comprehensive roll-call using project and local community care staff. There has been a review of the patient registers in long-stay institutions and a review of duplicate and listings of inactivity produced by the GMS payments board. We are now able to audit the Department of Social and Family Affairs database.

We are also working to get monthly checks with the local registrar of births, marriages and deaths. We have new reporting relationships in respect of persons recorded as deceased on the hospital information system in our own hospitals, although the problem of the Dublin hospitals remains. In relation to long-stay institutions, we get monthly listings from the social welfare officers locally and we have also established a linkage with the nursing home subvention office.

We have also arranged with general practitioners to notify changes in their panel as they become known to them. We have procedures in place to capture local knowledge. We do a cross-check of the PPSNs against the Department of Social and Family Affairs database but as I pointed out, not all people have PPSNs. Where we have the PPSN the check is very accurate but we do not have all of them on it. We are also doing an annual roll-call register.

These actions will allow us to achieve at all times as accurate a medial card register as possible but in the absence of the integration of all the various schemes nationally, that requires a major human resource input because so much of what I have described is manual work until it is put on the system.

The board will also implement the system and process changes as recommended by the health boards executive GMS project, which was set up by the chief executive officers to achieve the overall modernisation of the process. I have included a summary of that process in appendix 1 of my statement.

The current position is set out on page 10. The provisional figure from the census of April 2002 is a total of 24,896. We estimate that since April 2002, a further 301 people would have attained the age of 70, giving us a figure of 25,197. Of those, 682 are in long-stay institutions without a card. The estimated number who have not applied for a card is 124, giving a balance of 24,390. Our database shows 26,039, so there is a difference of 1,649 or 6.8%.

We carried out an extensive validation programme and we are currently completing our second roll-call since January 2001. At this stage we have a high degree of confidence in our own figures. It is possible that the final process will reveal some 500 cases but I believe the number of 1,649 is an over estimate based on the estimates of the census of population figures. Unfortunately, until these figures are released in July, we will not be able to accurately verify that. It is significant, however, that the CSO figure for the north east as a whole, prior to the publication of the provisional figures, was significantly under-estimated. I would have a fair degree of confidence in that regard, and I have outlined the reason for that.

In relation to overpayments and to validate the 4,900 deletions carried out, I have set out in the table at the top of page 12 the detailed breakdown of the various reasons. Of that 4,900, we estimate that approximately 40% were found as a result of our normal verification procedures. That is about 2,000, and the other 2,900 were found as a result of the special examination. The GMS payments board has estimated that total overpayments are in the area of €329,000. We intend to pursue recovery of these payments as part of the national project, details of which are currently being examined jointly by the chief executives as regards the action that will be taken.

I am also satisfied that for the people in the 65 to 69 category, the database has been kept up to date.

May I contribute? We are going to be here all day. If every chief executive is going to give a summary of this length, we will get nowhere. We have the submissions and I ask that the speakers be brief so that we can get down to the business of questioning——

We have our procedures. Have you almost concluded, Mr. Robinson?

Mr. Robinson

Yes, Chairman. I am just verifying what I said. We are satisfied about the 65 to 69 category. We are also satisfied in regard to the system on the under 65s.

Until the national requirements are met, we will remain highly dependent on a considerable amount of manual input into the system.

Thank you, Mr. Robinson. Do we have permission to publish that document?

Mr. Robinson

Of course, Chairman.

We will now hear a brief opening statement from the Department of Health and Children representative, Mr. Mooney.

Thank you, Chairman. I will be fairly brief. I will bring the committee up to date on developments on the overall level since the last examination here on 16 January. In the meantime, as the Comptroller said earlier, Mr. Kelly, the Secretary General, has kept the committee informed of developments. We contacted the chief executive officers again after that meeting, and I am sure the committee got a flavour of the activity going on at health board level. There is no need for me to go back over that.

During the last examination we talked about the overpayments and in the meantime, through the Health Service Employers Agency, we have briefed the Irish Medical Organisation, the representative body for the practitioners, on the situation at national level. Technically, as the chief executive officer said, it will have to be dealt with at board level but we have briefed it at national level, so the process has already begun. That was the concern of many members on the last occasion. The details of that will be worked out as we go along.

The co-ordinating group overseeing the review of the GMS list has produced a draft plan for the future management of the registration system to ensure the accuracy of the register in future. This plan deals, in a comprehensive way, with all aspects of the scheme and the Department is satisfied that lessons have been learned from the weaknesses explained here and that the errors we are now dealing with will not occur in the future.

At the examination on 16 January, the Secretary General also informed the committee of a review of governance and accountability in the GMS, which was being undertaken by Deloitte & Touche. The final draft report has now been received from Deloitte & Touche and it recommends wide-ranging reform of governance and accountability arrangements. In the meantime, the report of the commission on accountability in the wider health sector, the so-called Brennan report, has been received and it, too, makes very specific and wide-ranging recommendations in relation to the GMS. The review of structures, which was signalled in the health strategy, is nearing completion by Prospectus and its findings will also have far reaching implications for the GMS. These three reports will be submitted to Government very soon, probably next month. The Department is fully committed to implementation of the recommendations of these reports as approved by Government. The Department believes that the implementation of the new arrangements for the management of the GMS lists, together with the recommendations of the three reports I mentioned, provides a sound platform for the effective management of the GMS system as a whole, will ensure that past weaknesses do not occur and will provide for an effective and efficient GMS service to medical card holders and their dependants. We in the Department are very committed to giving the necessary leadership to the system to ensure that these objectives can be implemented.

I thank Mr. Mooney for that. Does Mr. Burke from the GMS payments board wish to make a brief statement? For members information, this relates to item 315.

Mr. Burke

I will be equally brief. If I go through the statement quickly that will summarise the position. The first part of the statement sets out that the GMS payments board is a joint board of all the boards. I have sketched out the number of schemes, apart from the GMS scheme, for which the board reimbursed claims.

Moving specifically to the issue of capitation fees, as Mr. Purcell pointed out, we maintain a central database and take data from each of the boards to process and use as reference data to pay claims. I have shown in table 1.1 the trend in terms of the capitation panels from 1995 to 2002. It shows a downward trend from 1995 to 2000 and it picked up in 2001 with the change in the Health Act.

When the Act was amended to afford full eligibility it quickly became clear to the board that there was an issue in this regard. Monitoring processes in the GMS identified and reported on this at an early stage. We appointed a subgroup and together with the boards agreed on a way forward. The work on dealing with this was done under the auspices of the health board executive. The output from the work of that group is also reported in the report where we outline the scope of the overpayment. The subgroup that we put in place in December 2001 initially scoped what we thought was the excess registrations. It was on the basis of that scoping exercise that the estimate of the overpayment was initially picked up.

In section 2 of my statement I outline the statutory basis of the GMS payments board and its role and responsibilities in relation to the GMS and other schemes. It is particularly important to note that the remit of the GMS payments board is limited in relation to the GMS scheme in the sense that it has a claims processing and payment function. Therefore, it is important to make a distinction between the role of the GMS payments board vis-à-vis the GMS scheme.

I have also included in my statement a summary of the central client index and where we are at with it. It is important to note that the central client index will be a support for data integrity, but it also a part of an e-business infrastructure that allows us to deliver services to 2.5 million people and 5,000 primary care contractors. Therefore, it is not primarily a system to ensure data integrity even though that is a core component of it; it has other business dimensions.

In the statement I bring the committee up to date on where we are at in implementing the pilot scheme in the north east. It is important to note that while we can deal and have dealt quickly with some of the technical aspects of it, there are other issues associated with implementing that amount of change across a number of different business environments, which involve changing business processes, management and so on, and they are currently being addressed.

Can I get permission to publish that statement and the statement in regard to the Department of Health and Children?

Mr. Burke

Yes.

What was the basis of your concerns over levels of duplicate medical cards in 2000?

Mr. Burke

This must be set in the context of what the GMS payments board does. It reimburses claims from primary care contractors for services they provide. We would reimburse somewhere in the order of 40 million business transactions, claim and treatment items of service a year to 5,000 primary care contractors. Over 30 years we would have constantly examined the technology platforms we use to process those claims and we would constantly have, among other business concerns, concerns about data integrity. That will always be central to it. We would have been aware that there were a number of duplicate registrations. Having started down the road to implement the CCI, part and parcel of that exercise had a data quality or data cleansing exercise. As we worked through that exercise, we would have dealt with any of our concerns relating to the duplicates. The question of issuing medical cards to people over the age of 70 and providing a full cohort of the population with eligibility meant that it brought that concern to the fore quicker.

Does this not indicate a lack of confidence on your part in the health board database, which was very much relied upon by the Department of Health and Children to give costings for schemes to the Department of Finance?

Mr. Burke

As I said in my statement, the fact that there are so many legacy and disparate systems, one would always have a concern for the integrity of data. The remit of the board is to examine and verify the accuracy and reasonableness of claims. The bureau of control in place in the GMS would be examining 40 million business transactions and I would regularly have a concern that we are closing down all of those appropriately.

Given the conflicting opinion of the health boards, why did you not raise these concerns with the Department of Health and Children directly?

Mr. Burke

To what concerns is the Chairman referring?

Concerns regarding the data and technology base with the health boards in terms of the methodology for keeping records.

Mr. Burke

With regard to the nature and structure of the GMS payments board, it is a joint board make up of the regional health boards and the area health boards. It also has representation from the Department of Health and Children. The board has 14 members and the Department of Health and Children is involved on an ongoing basis in the board's decisions and initiatives to move forward on the question of a central index.

Was it not your statutory duty to inform the Department in regard to the validity of certain medical schemes? The GMS payments board is administering this scheme and it allowed this to happen.

Mr. Burke

I could go back over the statement.

You were aware of the anomalies in the scheme going back to 1998 and that the board did not have the necessary controls in place with the health boards prior to the past number of months.

Mr. Burke

We had controls in place.

The controls were a shambles.

Mr. Burke

I could not agree with that. Taking account of the interface between the boards and the GMS payments board over the past ten years, we would have somewhere in the order of 12 million to 14 million transactions in relation to changes in client demographics in terms of patients moving from one GP to another.

That is no excuse. Regardless of the volume of transactions, it makes no excuse for the inefficiency which was quite rampant throughout the system. The fact that the board had a cleansing exercise in 1998 and 2000 shows a statutory obligation to inform the Department of huge anomalies in the system.

How does Mr. Burke respond to the board's failure to notify the Department of Health and Children about serious anomalies that became apparent?

Mr. Burke

It is not that we did not advise anyone. We had moved down the line of implementing a national central index which we saw as a solution. We had worked our way through what was a fairly extensive procurement through the Official Journal of the European Communities. That process started in 1998-99 when we were satisfied that there were issues in this regard. We addressed the question of data integrity but we also addressed other questions. We were dealing with 5,000 primary care contractors who were submitting 1.6 million physical pieces of paper to the GMS every month, carrying 3.5 million claim and treatment items. We had to look forward and the GMS strategic view going forward was that we needed to take that amount of paper out of the system. We needed to provide an on-line check-up for those primary care contractors in order that they could validate services at the point of contact. We were working with the boards and with the full knowledge of the Department to implement that index during that time.

How can you stand over eight or nine different systems within each health board, which are not compatible? You mentioned the volume of documentation but in the 21st century that is still quite small for a system that employs so many people who are highly trained in database recording systems. It is hard for you to defend entirely your position, given that you are the people responsible for working with the health boards in order to have a compatible system in place.

Mr. Burke

I am not trying to defend the position in relation to the number of legacy systems there. If you look at the statutory remit of the board, we do not have an executive authority over what system a health board will have in place.

But would you not expect to have such a system in place, if the GMS is administering a huge budget that is making payments to GPs, pharmacies and others? If the system is incompatible, you should be recommending a system to health boards that would be compatible with your own.

Mr. Burke

Yes, Chairman. That is what we were doing, and continue to do, as part of that central index project.

But it has not been done.

Mr. Burke

No, it has not been done. I tried to explain that, although badly, in the opening statement. Maybe I should have spent longer in the opening statement on working through some of the issues. There are a number of legacy systems in operation and an investment has been made in those systems by the regional boards.

Are you saying the Department of Health and Children is not given the money to invest in these systems?

Mr. Burke

No, I did not say that. I was trying to explain the fact that there are legacy systems in all the boards, and we recognise that. Our procurement for a central index provided also for technologies that would allow us to integrate with the legacy systems. I accept the fact that it is one thing to procure a central system, but it is another thing to deploy it into a number of different business environments where it must integrate with the systems that are there. I must also take account of the fact that we were moving away from what would have been the practice for 20 years, in that we had approached the delivery of health services via a number of different schemes, including the long-term illness scheme, the general medical services scheme and the DPS scheme. In each of those schemes a client was registered separately. The central index is a fundamentally different concept in the sense that you provide a single record for a client and register the client's eligibility. In the regional boards and in the GMS back-end systems, those circumstances would have been dealt with by different registration processes. The implementation of the index means that we must now consolidate all those things; we must present a single face to a user who applies for health services. I cannot ignore the fact that there are significant business process, re-engineering exercises that need to happen and we are working through those with the board.

Significant changes also have to happen concerning organisational change and data cleaning. As part of that project, our agenda included a complete data cleansing exercise whereby, starting from 1998, we had a plan with the boards to examine every record in the medical card population.

Were a huge amount of ghost medical cards identified in 1998? What was the level of ghost cards in that period? You mentioned a business-like process but from my observations it is far from being business-like, so that term should not be used. If it was a business-like process it would not be in the shambles it is at the moment.

I will come back to Mr. Burke, but Mr. Lyons was first into the breach. I should congratulate you on your appointment. You are lucky, in one sense, that you cannot be responsible for the past but, unfortunately, today you will have to respond to it. On a day when we have seen a clear and total lack of control and management, it is ironic that we have an impressive array of that management before us. I make that comment very pointedly. Looking back at all of this, it is an extremely sad indictment of health board management. Unfortunately, the perception continues that there are overall difficulties in managing the health system when we see what exactly has transpired.

When the Secretary General appeared before the committee, he placed the blame firmly at the door of the chief executive officers. On that occasion, he said "the obligation is on the health board to keep the list right. The error in this case was made by the health board." He more or less indicated that it is all down to your doorstep and did not have a whole lot to do with the Department of Health and Children, except that it is the final paymaster. How do you respond to that? Do you make the excuse that in 1995 that famous letter issued from the Department of Health and Children, indicating that you should go easy on the over-70s?

The Comptroller and Auditor General would have made the health boards aware, possibly in March 2001 - it became apparent when he was going through the accounts - that there was a major problem with the veracity of the numbers of those on the medical card scheme. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report was issued in September but it took until 16 January, when the Secretary General of the Department of Health and Children came to the committee, to really ram it home that there was a major problem. As a committee we were totally dissatisfied with the response we had seen to date. It took from 16 January to 30 January for him towrite to each chief executive officer to seekproper reports about the action that was being taken.

It shows an appalling lack of management and control that in the first instance all the health boards said the overpayments involved would cost €12 million a year. Today, however, we have received statements from the drugs payments board and the health boards to suggest that the overall figure will be €6 million. Would you not be inclined to say "We are putting our hands in the air, lads"? This is extraordinarily bad management, involving a total lack of control. It does not add to the public perception of proper management and controls within health boards. I would like your response, Mr. Lyons.

Mr. Lyons

Thank you for your kind words earlier on, Deputy.

That is how we do it in Cork, you see. We praise you first and then you are damned.

Mr. Lyons

I am very familiar with Cork, as you know. There is a general theme running through the three questions. It would probably take us all day to deal with the management of the health system generally. I would disagree with the proposition that there is a failure of management and control in the health system. We have facts and figures that we can talk about on that. In relation to the situation in the eastern region - I am speaking solely in relation to the eastern region - there were two issues. One was the 1995 letter and the pivotal role that it played, certainly in the way——

Do you have a copy of the letter? Is that available?

Mr. Lyons

Yes. The letter issued from the Department of Health and Children, certainly. Prior to 1995, and since then, we have had quite a robust applications and review mechanism in the eastern region. The tenor of the Department's letter was that in relation to the population over 70 years of age, a much more patient-centred and friendly approach needed to be taken in the review of medical cards. The suggestion was put that public health nurses and community welfare officers might be used instead of the bureaucratic means of issuing letters to older people who do not particularly like that sort of approach. In the eastern region we did not have that resource available to us. Public health nurses and community welfare officers in the eastern region have primarily a service focus in view of the complexity and the wide range of services they are obliged to deliver. That range has arguably increased in the last eight years since the letter was issued. Nevertheless, we concentrated most on the review process in relation to the age group under 65 years because that is where the large bulk of medical cards resided.

With regard to the discovery of the issue in the eastern region, a Deputy mentioned that it came to the fore around September 2001 and that there was a lag before the Secretary General reported to the committee on the up to date position. However, once the problem emerged in the eastern region, the authority initiated with the three area health boards an internal audit which produced six action points, each of which was translated into action plans in the three area health boards. All have been addressed since March 2002.

Given the range of cover with which we were dealing - 105,000 people over 70 years of age - we have done well to narrow the gap to 3,400. Arguably it might be superseded when we follow up the result of the roll call, where 11,600 people are outstanding. If more than half of those drop off the list we will be in a surplus position vis-à-vis the CSO projections.

Is it the case that the problem only became apparent to you in September, when the Comptroller and Auditor General's report indicated that there was a problem within your area in terms of duplicate medical cards, people dying, etc? Were you not made aware when the C&AG was doing the audit that there was a major difficulty within your health board area? Am I correct in understanding - perhaps the C&AG could advise on this - that during his audit in March, when this problem became manifest, almost 12 months passed until 16 January, when the Secretary General gave evidence to the committee. His letter of 30 January gave a direction that something be done, but nobody did anything. Is that the case?

May I publish the letter you circulated, Mr. Lyons?

Mr. Lyons

It is a departmental letter.

Mr. Purcell

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe asked for clarification. This matter came to light as a result of the extent of underestimation in the budget in 2001. Looking at all the health board and authority submissions, it is clear that action was taken as a result of that discovery, the earlier wake-up call. The audit would have reflected that. I defer to what the chief executive would say in terms of whatever happened afterwards. The appropriateness of the time element would have to be determined by the committee.

Mr. Lyons

The internal audit to which I referred was conducted during the period January to March 2002. The action plans to deal with the findings started immediately after and are ongoing. They have progressed to the point where we should have completed the exercise within six to eight weeks.

Is it the case that in your health board area, approximately 18,000 cards have been removed from the system?

Mr. Lyons

Some 18,880 have been deleted from the system.

Is it the case that the total over-payment in your area is half of the overall estimate, that is, €3 million as against an overall estimate of €6 million?

Mr. Lyons

That is correct, but when it is set against the range of coverage in the east, I suppose it fits.

With regard to the responsibility of the payments board, the health boards and the GPs, the Comptroller and Auditor General mentioned a dilution of responsibility in relation to certification by GPs. At one stage, in submitting his or her list, the GP was required to certify that each person on the list was alive, regardless of their health status. The C&AG said there was a dilution of that system. Were you aware of this and were you aware of the consequences? Given that the laminated medical cards were introduced in 1998, should you not have been aware that even at that stage 30,000 were found to be in existence in error? Did that not signify that there was a real margin for error and that we could be repeating the old mistake?

Mr. Lyons

The Deputy has identified a key issue in relation to the robustness of the entire system. When one considers that the issuing of a medical card forms a contract between three parties - the health board, the GP and the person receiving it - it raises the question as to the role and responsibility of all parties to the agreement. Our statement identifies the need to perhaps look at the form of agreement with general practitioners to provide for a more proactive role for them in the notifying of changes to the panels.

Is there any evidence of fraudulent claims by GPs in the review in terms of the lists they have submitted since 1986? Some people could be dead for 15 years, yet the GP might continue to make a claim.

Mr. Lyons

Not to my knowledge.

How could that be? For example, how could GPs furnish a list? You said it is presented electronically every month to the payments board. How could a person submit a list involving somebody who is dead for ten years on a consistent basis every month since 1986? Is this what happened in some instances?

Mr. Burke

They do not submit lists. The nature of the agreement with general practitioners is that they are paid a capitation fee in respect of a person who is assigned to their panel by the board. Once assigned to their panel, they are paid the fee. The GPs do not submit lists.

That is a very loose arrangement.

Once a medical card is issued, there is no responsibility on the GP to advise if the person had passed on and nobody is obliged to check. Does it not strike any one that this is rather odd?

Mr. Lyons

In the early 1990s, intensive negotiations took place on the form of agreement with general practitioners and the outcome is reflected in the contract. General practitioners are not obliged to notify changes in their panels to the health boards.

Is that the current position?

Mr. Lyons

Yes.

Are you happy with it?

Mr. Lyons

As I just said, we have identified that as a weakness which needs to be addressed.

In all the reports and statements we got from the chief executive officers nobody looked at recoupment, how we will get this money back and how the health boards will address this. What contacts has Mr. Lyons had with the medical association to ensure that the money is repaid? What is the strategy? Obviously the Comptroller and Auditor General would be extremely anxious, as is each member of the committee, to make sure that the money paid out is recouped. I am sure Mr. Lyons could do with €3 million to deal with the exigencies of delivering the health services in the eastern region.

Mr. Lyons

I could do with much more. Mr. Mooney has already alluded to the question of overpayments, as has Mr. Robinson. Clearly there is an obligation and a requirement to deal with the overpayment and to recoup overpayments. In that context, for the information of the committee, we have stopped the payment of capitation, from a current date, in cases where we have established dates of death.

On the recoupment of overpayments retrospectively, there is an issue which raises the question of the relationship between the health board and individual GPs on a contractual basis to try to determine, for example in the case of duplicates, which GPs were involved. There are technical issues like that which need to be resolved. There is the position about deceased GPs, for example, and the obligation on GPs to notify deaths.

There are two levels to this, however. First, as Mr. Kelly mentioned the last time he was here, clearly the IMO will be involved at national level in this regard. We already have had one consultative meeting with the IMO. When the exact position is known, which, nationally, should be within six to eight weeks or so, then the process of dealing with the overpayments retrospectively would be put in place.

Has Mr. Lyons written to each of the GPs on the register asking them to furnish at this stage a list of all of the medical card patients on their lists? Have they been requested to furnish an up-to-date list of all of the medical cards holders on their lists?

Mr. Lyons

We have not done that yet.

Does Mr. Lyons think it would be advisable to do so?

Mr. Lyons

It is part of our action plan and will be put in place. At this stage our priority is to finish the exercise to cleanse the data from the medical card list and then to calculate in more precise form the overpayments from each individual GP, and then the exercise to deal with the recoupments will take place.

I will continue where Deputy O'Keeffe left off. As Mr. Lyons will probably be aware, the committee has been given specific briefs. For instance, I was to direct this question to Mr. Maguire of the East Coast Area Health Board but, because of the overarching effect of the organisation, I will ask general questions, both on the east coast area and on the northern area.

First, I have a general question to ask them collectively. What was the extent of the discussion, the contact and the research that was done on the day they heard that the Government was going to extend the medical card system to people over 70? Would somebody tell me exactly what happened that day or that week? I have a strange feeling that at the back of all this there was a huge amount of messing around done within the health boards. It would not be fair to label anyone with all the blame because on that day there was a huge influx of persons over 70. Obviously the amount of work which would have had to have been done by each health board would have been significantly greater than whatever they were used to.

I want to know if the Department of Health and Children said it would give the health boards such a sum of money to improve their procedures or what sort of contact there was to get them on board. Would somebody care to inform me about this? This was one of the biggest single procedural changes in the medical card system for a long time. Would the health board executives agree?

Mr. Lyons

The policy decision was taken and it was then the responsibility of the health boards to ensure that policy was implemented. The discussion that we would have had was to ensure that the processes to start the implementation of the new scheme were put in place, and that involved discussions with the community care staff who are involved in the processing of medical cards, the adaptation of the database and also informing people in the eastern region, in the area of the three area health boards, of their entitlement to apply for medical cards once they were over 70 years of age and were not already in receipt of a medical card.

That part is history, but it was a very important time. Did the EHRA get enough time to do it? We will come back to the problems within the health boards in a moment. Was there enough contact with the Department of Health and Children about all of this?

Mr. Lyons

When we are talking about time to implement a Government scheme, it does not follow that the scheme is fully implemented on day one. There is a process to enable us to develop the structures, etc., to ensure that a scheme is implemented efficiently and effectively. The decision was taken and the boards responded as quickly as they possibly could to ensure that the Government decision was actually implemented.

On the same point, did the Department give you an estimate of the number of people that would be eligible for the scheme in your area?

Mr. Lyons

I will have to check that.

Ms Windle

The first correspondence we had from the Department was on 24 January 2001.

Were you told the estimated number?

Ms Windle

No.

Was there discussion on the number?

Ms Windle

No. It was informing us how the process of the Bill was proceeding and what was taking place, but there was quite a number of letters from the Department to the board during the period up to the start date of 1 July outlining what was happening and what was going on. At the board stage, we were engaged in the actual preparation of this application form for the over 70s - getting them ready, to whom to send them, etc. We were dealing with continuous queries from people about what the changes were going to be.

Suffice to say that right up to 1 July the negotiations were simultaneously being concluded with the IMO and we were just working in tandem trying to get the forms ready to deal with the applicants.

From where did the figure for the likely uptake of the scheme originate? Was it from the health boards or from the Department of Health and Children? What was the origin of that figure which proved to be so wrong subsequently?

Ms Windle

My understanding is that that figure was derived by the Department officials in conversation or dialogue with the GMS payments board.

Would the Department agree that it was derived in conversation with the GMS because someone, whoever it was, got it terribly wrong?

Chairman, do you want me to respond to that?

We went through these numbers in considerable detail the last day. It was very simple, in one sense.

It did not turn out simple.

We knew the number of people aged 70 or over from the CSO. We also thought we knew the number of people over 70 in the country with medical cards from the records produced by the board and collated by the Payments Board. The difference between the two figures was 39,000. That is the basis on which the Department did its calculations.

Which turned out to be entirely wrong.

It appears to be wildly wrong. There seems to be no relationship at all to what happened.

It was wildly out.

It was madly out.

To clarify, the Department is not in a position to know how many people in an area or health board have medical cards other than through the returns which come from the board, into the Payments Board and which are collated on a national basis. On that basis we simply use the estimates——

There was a rush of blood to get a particular regime in play?

We dealt with this the last day. I do not have the exact dates but we were notified by the Department of Finance three days before the budget. Finance officials addressed this the last day - that this measure would be announced in the budget. They wanted some estimate from us as to what it would cost. The basis on which we did our calculations was by getting the overall figure from the CSO and getting the numbers allegedly covered by the Payments Board. The scheme was announced in the budget on 4 December 2000, when it was also announced the scheme would take effect from 1 July the following year.

We have three or four Members trying to get in.

Yes, I will be brief. From looking at all the health board reports, and I have read them in reasonable detail, it seems there is a comedy of errors all over the place. It appears that the computers in the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the health board computers do not speak to each other. It appears the doctors to not talk to the health boards and vice versa. It appears that when someone dies it is everyone's business and nobody's to convey that information to the health board. It appears the different factions involved in this were operating as independent republics until this happened and that there was no great co-ordination.

A question, Deputy.

After this debacle will there be harmonisation? Does the health board have the funding to allow it put in the computer system which is obviously necessary?

Mr. Lyons

In relation to the national co-ordination, my report and that of Mr. Robinson's mention the national approach being taken to this through the health boards executive, which is designed to facilitate conjoint working between the boards. That project is almost finalised but the action plans of the health board areas in the east take account of what is in that. In terms of going forward conjointly the health boards will work together in this area. There is a serious point being made here on ICT and I refer the committee to the Secretary General's comments here in January stating the need for significant investment in ICT to support this whole exercise. Mr. Burke mentioned the CCEI or unique patient identifier, which is critical to all of this. The short answer to Deputy Connaughton is there is a need for investment in ICT to support the medical card system.

Is that taking place currently?

Mr. Lyons

It is acknowledged that there are several issues in relation to ICT. One is the development of interfaces between existing systems, which is gradually taking place with the GRO system and that of the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the health board and GMS systems. That is happening now but the key to link all those together is the unique patient identifier and ICT investment is also needed to develop those so they can work together.

How long will it take until there is a system with which the board is happy? What is the time frame?

Mr. Lyons

I am not an ICT expert but the sooner the unique patient identifier issues are resolved the more robust the system will be.

Will it take one year or two years?

Mr. Lyons

There are data protection issues to be resolved in relation to the medical card system in particular, for instance in relation to those over 70 and the private nature of some patients who got medical cards as of right two years ago. There are issues regarding the application of the PPN number with which the Data Commissioner is dealing.

That is not a very satisfactory answer on that area.

On a point of clarification, from reading the various reports the GMS payments board states that the verification, reasonableness and accuracy of claims in relation to its services is its job and it has failed completely in that regard. We can question all the chief executive officers here and every one will take us back to ICT, which seems to be the magic wand.

Any manual system in any business has be accurate. I seek clarification from Mr. Burke: what is this legacy system he is blaming? Does it mean the legacy systems are inefficient, inaccurate or not working in every respect of GMS payments? Is that not inaccurate also because legacy systems or manual systems must have work and a foundation in truth? Is that not the case?

Is it not unreasonable to expect us to believe that with the implementation of ICT and technology systems throughout the board we will suddenly get huge accuracy? That seems neither right nor accurate. There seems to be no co-ordination with any of these reports and the questions Deputy O'Keeffe put could be asked of any health board. They would still take us back to the absolute failure on the GMS side in co-ordinating affairs and payments with health boards. There is a responsibility you have to accept and acknowledge.

Who will rectify this? Why was this not demanded before? Why do you continue to blame the legacy systems while saying ICT is the magic formula that will solve everything? That is surely not the case. A manual system should be as accurate as any other system.

If the manual or legacy systems are wrong how do you expect the technological systems to be right? They must have some foundation. Instead of going round the house here, which is frustrating for us as we are hearing the same explanations all the time, surely if this was not uncovered in 2001 we would not be sitting here. How many more inaccuracies and overpayments would have occurred in the other systems listed here on page 2?

Mr. Lyons

I apologise if I did not answer the question correctly. The Chair asked me about the approximate time scale. I am not in a position to give a time scale but to put the amount in context, industry norms for investment in ICT are about 3% of turnover. Mr. Kelly estimated we would need 2% of the non-capital spend, which is €170 million per year, compared to about €30 million at the moment.

Is that for your region?

Mr. Lyons

Mr. Kelly was referring to ICT investment nationally.

Is it €170 million nationally?

Mr. Lyons

Yes.

That estimate would deal with the comprehensive health system. Medical cards would be just one element of it.

Mr. Burke

A number of questions were raised by the Deputy. First, we should look at the remit of the GMS payments board, which is a claims processing and payments function. As I said in my statement, we maintain a central database, which is an aggregate of the health board database. It is an aggregate database used to verify the accuracy and reasonableness of claims from primary care contractors. If I look at how an individual gets a card, for very legitimate reasons, there is a separation of functions between the GMS payments board being the register of a client and the payment agency. For 30 years, since the scheme was put in place, there was a separation of duties to have a local presence on the ground to register clients and to separate it from the payments functions. The lists are forwarded to the GMS on a monthly basis. The GMS database is an aggregate of these lists, therefore, we are entirely dependent on the lists fed in from the board.

The document states that the board performs the following functions on behalf of the health board and that part of that function is the verification, accuracy and reasonableness of the claims. Mr. Burke did not verify the claims or the systems. He either misunderstood, misread or did not receive the correct information. He did not go back to base to correct the information. If that happened in a private business, Mr. Burke would either not be in business or in a job. He continues to argue around receiving the information from a range of chief executive officers. He said it was almost not his job, even though he states here it was his job to verify the accuracy of the claims.

Mr. Burke

I was leading up to that point in the sense that I depended on the boards for the reference data. In regard to verifying accuracy and reasonableness of claims, we receive in the order of 40 million claim or treatment items per annum. There is a bureau of control in place in GMS to verify the accuracy and reasonableness of the claims from primary care contractors. Given the nature of the business and the controls in place, there is a separation between the process of registering a client and making payments to primary care contractors. The board is dependent on these lists because that is the nature of the separation of duties and the way the data is fed into the payments board.

All we have heard so far is an effort to dilute the problem and to spread blame across all the chief executive officers, the Department and the GMS and no one is taking responsibility for the mistakes that have occurred in this instance. I do not know how many faults relate to the other issues under the GMS scheme. There is an attempt here this morning to spread blame for the problem rather than accepting it happened in a particular area.

Does Mr. Burke wish to comment on that point?

Mr. Burke

I have explained the matter.

Ms Windle

On a point of clarification. What happens is that the general practitioner applies to the local health board and he or she is allocated a panel of patients for each doctor. That information is then fed into the GMS payments board. When doctors send in the claim, the GMS payments board's sole job is to make the qualification and correct payment in respect of that data. That is the role of the GMS payments board, which it carries out very well. It makes the payments on foot of the information it receives. The accuracy of the payments is not in question. The issue is the payment on foot of the information as to the number of clients on the doctors list which is fed into the GMS payments board.

The document states that the compilation of statistics and other information in relation to such services is part of the work of the GMS payments board. If the board was doing its job the problem would not have occurred in the first place. It appears it was not doing its job.

Ms Windle

The GMS payments board, in turn, send back to the health boards on a regular basis a list of patients on the doctors' lists. They fulfil their job by providing the information. It is not their job to check it.

You exchange information?

Ms Windle

It is part of the circle of the information.

Of misinformation.

I have two general questions and a specific question. We have been asked to concentrate on a particular health board if possible. I find it difficult to accept it is a technology problem. Health boards have access to this information and it appears to be more a problem of internal communications. Death certificates are written by GPs. The health board has specific responsibility for keeping registers of births and deaths. If the information cannot be accessed when it is within the system, it is a system failure not a technology failure. I would like whoever is responsible to respond to that assertion.

My second question relates to medical cards for the over 70's. We are not allowed to ask about policy implications. That is outside the remit of the committee. However, subsequent to the policy decision being made, was a question ever put to health board chief executives on the need to extend medical cards to the over 70's? Were there health implications? Were particular conditions not being covered? Was it thrown into a mix before any decision was made about the likely cost?

I have a specific question in relation to the South-Western Health Board. The submission we received from the Eastern Regional Health Authority gives very general information on the different health boards. It includes some tables on some aspects of medical cards and the GMS scheme but it does not include all the information. Can I take it that in general terms the Eastern Regional Health Authority is responsible for 50% of the suggested overrun in relation to the GMS scheme, that is, 40% of the population? There seems to be a greater incidence of this type of behaviour in the Eastern Regional Health Authority area than in other regions. I would like to know to what extent the figures within the Eastern Regional Health Authority relate to the South-Western Health Board area? The figures appear to be contradictory. While there are fewer cards proportionately in the South-Western Health Board area, there seems to be a great cost factor in that area? Are there demographic factors involved where different categories of patients are unique to different health board areas?

Mr. Donnelly

The Deputy is correct that the figures in the eastern submission are a computation of the figures for the total eastern region. We have a further breakdown of the figures per health board area which we can make available to the committee. In relative terms, they seem to make sense in terms of the population in each health board area. For instance, in the South-Western Health Board area, the total population is 581,000 and the total number of persons eligible for medical cards is 152,000. This relates directly to the seemingly larger figures for the eastern region. This is explained by the percentage of the total population who live in the eastern region and by the particular concentration of the population.

Mr. Lyons pointed out that in the greater Dublin area, in particular, we rely largely on a manually based administrative system to administer the medical card system. We do not have public health nurses and community welfare officers to knock on doors. This is partly explained by the huge plethora of other duties, particularly in the Dublin area, in relation to asylum seekers, rent supplements, homelessness, drug addiction, child care and a number of other issues relating to deprivation. The figures, which we can circulate to the Deputy, relate quite well to the national figures.

Thank you very much.

I asked a few general questions as well, Chairman.

Mr. Lyons, do you wish to answer?

Mr. Lyons

Mr. Maguire was going to take those questions, Chairman.

Mr. Maguire

The first question related to the births and deaths register. Unfortunately, it is a manual register. Work is ongoing to computerise it. We get the manual register quarterly from the births and deaths registry and we manually cross-reference that against our database and update our database accordingly. The key, going forward, is to computerise fully both the births and deaths register and our own database and interface them. As Mr. Lyons said earlier on, the key is to get common terminology and, in particular, the common patient identifier (PPSN) within that system. A great deal of work is being focused on that.

There are some data protection issues which we will have to overcome but the future objective is to get that fixed and to get all the various systems and the database of the Department of Social and Family Affairs fully in synchronisation with ours.

That explains the speed at which a database can be kept up to date. It is not unlike keeping voting registers where local authorities have to access information through different means, also largely manual. If that can be done on an annual basis I cannot understand why it cannot and is not being done in the health board areas using the same mechanisms.

Mr. Maguire

We are cross-referencing the two.

With very strange results.

Mr. Maguire

There are issues in relation to structure and compatibility in the ways the data is sourced. That is being worked on in the context of computerising the births and deaths register.

The second question was whether there was any informing of the policy decision before it was made and about the extent to which there were particular needs for people over 70 which had to be funded through the health system and which were not being funded properly. Were those questions ever asked?

Was advice given on that issue?

Mr. Maguire

I am not aware of any such advice.

I am not surprised.

Mr. Mooney, do you want to add something?

I spoke about this earlier. We were informed about three days before the 2001 budget in December 2000 that this would be announced in the budget. There was no prior discussion or negotiation on it. It was, I assume, a Government decision and was announced by the Minister for Finance in the budget. From there on, as has been explained earlier, it was our responsibility to try to implement the decision as announced in the budget.

I have no difficulty with that process. I was trying to ascertain, not so much whether it was a good or a bad decision that was eventually made by the Government but whether, before making that decision, it was properly informed and the cost implications understood. That is the remit of this committee.

There is a danger of our getting side tracked. The medical card scheme for the over 70s, whatever its merits, is not the issue here. The issue is that 23,363 people who were dead were being claimed for and a service supposed to be provided to them. That is the problem. In fact, as Mr. Lyons said at the outset, the over 70s scheme helped to highlight the procedure and to bring it into control. The over 70s scheme is not the difficulty. I am worried that even the Secretary General of the Department of Health and Children was at pains to point out all of the issues, such as duplication, people leaving the area and so on. In fact, about 90% of the error arises from people who are dead. That is what we need to deal with.

If this happened in any area of the public service other than the medical area there would be a huge outcry. There is a difficulty on the medical side in taking people on. I trace the major difficulty to two issues. The first goes back to the change to capitation fees from the fee per item. The second is the agreement between the IMO and the Department that doctors need not send in details of what they were being paid for. All of that was done on trust. We have had headlines about old people making mis-claims for various services. It is difficult to accept that 23,363 people were being claimed for who were dead.

A former Chairman of this committee used ask, in situations such as this "was anybody sacked?". Who is to blame and who is at fault? There are four component parts in this. Who do the witnesses - and I do not mind who answers this question - think is most at fault? Is it the Department of Health and Children, the GPs who were paid the money, the health boards or the GMS payments board? The people who got the money - the GPs - have said they submitted their claims and were not aware that people were dead. I know a doctor can have a substantial panel - I believe 640 is the minimum recommended for a viable panel - but if a doctor lost a few dozen people off his panel he would be concerned, particularly from the older section of the community. Can some witness tell me where the greater proportion of the blame lies? Mr. Lyons might have a view but the GMS board or the Department of Finance might also have one. The Department of Finance can wash its hands of this problem. It cannot be faulted. Where should the blame be targeted? Do we blame the people who took the money, the people who paid them or the people who were supposed to administer it? I trace it back to the change to the payment of a capitation fee and the agreement that doctors be paid on trust. Each doctor was asked to declare a panel and was to be paid accordingly as long as the doctor lived, whatever about the patient.

The Brennan commission report also says it is possible that fraud may occur in the annual budget of the health service and recommends that health board chief executive officers submit a written fraud policy statement to the Secretary General of the Department of Health and Children within six months of the publication of the report. Do the chief executive officers have any concerns that the neglect of the medical card lists in health board areas might have facilitated abuse of the scheme? The Brennan report clearly indicates an obligation on chief executive officers to give a statement.

Mr. Lyons

I have not seen the report. I am not sure if it is published yet.

That is one of the findings in it.

I ask Mr. Lyons, as an experienced administrator, where do we point the finger of blame?

Mr. Lyons

Deputy Dennehy has raised an issue in relation to the capitation system and its appropriateness for aligning deaths, duplicates and so on with the system and then removing them from the system. There will always be a time lag in notifying a death to the system.

We have been very frank this morning in accepting that there was an issue in relation to the over 70s, which has informed our learning and our approach to the future. Despite the letter of 1995 from the Department of Health, in the eastern region in addition to the application and review process we have in place for under 65s, we will also do an annual roll call for the over 65s, due to the indefinite nature of their entitlements, the five year card issue and the need to ensure that the 65 to 69 age group is included in that because they will form part of the over 70s group going forward. So, in an effort to ensure that the database is clean for the over 70s into the future we are engaging in an annual roll call for the 65 to 69 age group. Given the review process, the roll call and the other issues we are addressing in the action plan, such as changes in the ICT applications, the internal mechanisms we have to achieve, information in relation to people in nursing homes, for example, who may have died and addressing the inactive cards, we are confident the process we have for management and control in the eastern region is robust and will ensure that the database is maintained accurately into the future.

Deputy Dennehy also asked where the blame lies. It would not be appropriate for me to answer the question as definitively as it was put but we have addressed the issues arising from the over-70s. We have given reasons they arose in the eastern region. There are particular circumstances in the eastern region as Mr. Donnelly and I mentioned earlier on in relation to the solely administrative basis on which we assess and review medical cards. We do not have the luxury of community welfare officers and public health nurses in the region. We have addressed all of the issues, and done so quickly, in a way that will stand up to scrutiny in the future.

Could I come back on the breakdown? I understand the difficulty concerning somebody going into long-term care but that person is still getting a service, whoever he or she gets it from. I understand payment may be made twice and this was mentioned several times. The figures for such instances are 1,877 for the entire country. The figure for payments made for those who were dead was 23,363. The figures mentioned for people leaving the area was just over 5,000. Everybody seems to say we have had difficulties because people are going into long stay care. That is a factor but the big issue is the number of people who are dead. The other difficulties are administrative difficulties and I understand that.

We want to make it as easy as possible for people, particularly the elderly, to get service. Between those going into long-term care and people leaving an area, combined, there are less than 7,000 people but there are payments being made for about 23,500 who are dead. It is on that we should concentrate. Others have suggested that also.

Checking the death notices or checking with the office of the registrar of births, marriages and deaths is one recommendation. There should have been some system in place for recording the names of patients who passed on but it seems there was none. I have signed dozens of documents for people in their 90s saying they are still alive. Obviously many of these documents were not sent back because people of 93 or 94 years of age were asked if they were still unmarried, or still widowed. We sign these documents and send them back to the relevant person. Documents such as these are sent out every year to people who served in the army or worked for companies like Ford and Dunlop. These companies send out documents annually to check whether people are dead or alive but it seems to be different when we are dealing with public money. As we have said before, it is very easy to spend other people's money.

The problem seems to lie with the whole methodology of payment to GPs. There appears to be a very loose arrangement. A GP gets a number of patients and he is paid automatically for them. Is that what is happening? It seems there is no verification whatever.

Mr. Lyons

The issue of a swipe card comes up here also. We spoke about the CCEI project. An associated development that could help in terms of management and control is the annual swipe card or the five-yearly swipe card. It would be similar to a credit card or a bank card and once it reached an expiry date it would be withdrawn from the system.

A card cannot be withdrawn if one does not know the patient is dead.

Mr. Lyons

There is a review. Every medical card has both an expiry date and a review date. In the eastern region, four months before expiry a notification is given to the holder of the card. If the person does not respond by the expiry date the system deletes the card.

Is there a five year review for the elderly?

Mr. Lyons

No, this relates to all cards issued. Cards are issued for periods of three to six months in some cases or three to five years in others. They are issued on an indefinite basis for the over-70s or for a five year period. The review management control system in the eastern region provides for expiry and review. Review is within four months of the expiry date. The card is automatically deleted from the system if the person does not reapply or come back with the relevant information.

I would not like the committee to think we are draconian in the east because there is a tricky balance between a patient centred approach, which is what the health service is all about, and the management and control system. Both are equally important and we must strike a right balance between the two. Clearly, we have in-built appeals processes and if there are any uncertainties, or anything like that, the card is renewed pending the outcome of deliberations between the card holder and the board.

I do not want to accuse Mr. Lyons of clouding the issue but when we start speaking about the humanitarian approach, we would enunciate that better than anybody else. We are talking about people who are dead, not about disrupting people or not about taking or checking their cards. There were 23,500 people who were dead, RIP, and nothing was done about that. That is the kernel of the issue. It goes back to notification. People were paid on trust. Somebody decided that once a year, or whatever, a cheque would be sent out, if that is how they are paid. The weakness is there and it has cost us. It has not cost as much as some people seemed to think it would cost but I am worried that the system is bad. From an administrative point of view if there are that many cases of payments for dead people floating around, the system needs to be tightened up. Even from the point of view of efficiency of service it needs tightening up.

I have a question in regard to discretionary cards. Are there many of them? With the economy being so successful in recent years, and since we are talking about an income below €250 for a family with two children, one would imagine that there should be a considerable reduction. It is a fact that there were many ghost cards in certain areas but these would benefit people who need discretionary cards. That is an important point also. We are talking about 23,000 cards being claimed as ghost cards but in fact there could be 23,000 people who could rightly justify the income. The income level for people receiving cards was so low that one would imagine that the issuing of cards would have reduced in the past two years due to the economy and the fact that the minimum wage was raised. Are there many discretionary cards issued in your area?

Mr. Lyons

Could I just check the figures?

While Mr. Lyons is checking that I will ask a question regarding a point of procedure. We have probably the most important staff in the country in administration although I do not know whether the administration will all collapse today. To be fair to the four boards due to come in this afternoon I wonder if we will be simply repeating the issue. It is the Mid-Western Health Board I am to examine. I will be led by the Chairman's guidance but I see a danger of us simply repeating the issue. We were mandated to deal with one issue only - administration - and we have fairly well dealt with that. Is there a benefit in carrying on with the evening session? What does the Chairman think of that or how will we handle it?

That will be discussed in private session. I feel there is a useful justification for it. This is one of many occasions that I intend to bring the health boards before the committee. In my tenure as Chairman I intend to review the accounts of all eleven boards. It is unfair to bring in only five or six of them. The fact that such a budget is spent by health boards right around the country makes it important that they account for their stewardship of public funds through this committee. I intend to raise many issues with the health boards coming before us this afternoon.

Mr. Purcell

Just to make an observation, I said in my opening remarks - and I understand that maybe this has not been fully appreciated by the Members as they have been coming and going to vote - that a clean-up exercise was carried out in 1998. All existing card holders were written to and as a result of that the estimate was that 30,000 were removed from the panels.

Looking again at the opening statements and the information supplied by various boards, most of the problems seem to arise from 1998 onwards to 2001. What I said in my opening remarks is that there were warning signs. Whatever about blame being assigned when one does not know there is a problem, if there are clear indications that there has historically been a problem in a particular area and action is not taken to ensure that the problem does not recur, that is where blame really comes into play. I know Deputy McGuinness is not present but he can read the record of the proceedings.

It is a wrong analysis of the situation to make a scapegoat of the GMS payments board. The fundamental problem is how deaths are recorded. There are residual problems with regard to removals. I would not regard 7,000-odd as being a small figure because it has significant financial consequences but there is a fundamental problem with health boards. My analysis is not complete but it would be an informed analysis to some extent that at health board level between 1998 and 2001, there certainly were not the financial management controls in place throughout the health boards. There may be exceptions and I have not analysed the information notes to that extent but generally speaking the health boards were not as diligent as they should have been in keeping their medical card holder database up to date and accurate.

Undoubtedly many of them used manually-based systems, which are resource intensive and there were many other competing demands on resources in health boards at the time. The problem must be seen in that context. In the heel of the hunt, they were not as diligent as they should have been. The further implementation of IT in the health boards will help make that process more efficient. That singular point might have been missed in this discussion.

With regard to the 1998 cleansing exercise were there many ghost cards identified in your health board area?

Mr. Lyons

I do not have that information to hand, Chairman, but I will come back to you with it. As the Comptroller and Auditor General said, the exercise carried out in 2002 established that quite a significant amount of deletions were in respect of the period 1998 to 2001. We are confident that the 2002 exercise picked up whatever the 1998-1999 exercise may have failed to pick up.

Was there any overpayment of capitation fees refunded by any GP in your health board area after the 1998 cleansing exercise?

Mr. Lyons

To my knowledge the question of overpayment is being dealt with now——

Has there been any refund of overpayment by GPs?

Mr. Lyons

Not to my knowledge, Chairman. I will check out that specific question for you.

Mr. Purcell made the point about the cleansing exercise in 1998 being a clear marker. It is amazing that when the Secretary General came to this committee in January he said the health boards were quite happy with the procedures employed by them in the control of medical cards. That was his opinion and it is on the record of the proceedings.

Mr. Robinson

I have the figures for the north-east only. Deputy Dennehy made the point that the biggest problem was the number of deaths. It is very significant that we found that since 1995 we have not been writing to people over 70 and we did not identify the over-70s. We have done a complete roll-call of our entire medical card list, not just the over-70s and we are now doing a second one. The figures which are emerging are interesting. In the statement I gave of the 4,900, if we add the total of people where the dates of death are known and those where the date of death is not known, they amount to more than three quarters of all the cases. It bears out what Deputy Dennehy said.

In doing the total trawl back in all age groups we came up with only about 200 under 70 years. That is why I can state with confidence that we have been fairly assiduous in looking at the annual roll-call and annual check on people under the age of 65. It was borne out by the roll-call that we found a small number, but only a very small number under 65 years where deaths had occurred. One would expect most of the deaths to be in the over-70 range.

The first roll-call did not identify all the over-70 cases. The second roll-call is doing it. We will probably have to write to people. Deputy Dennehy made the point about people coming to have something signed for a pension, for instance, and there is a need to do an audit trail right back to that. It works for the general medical card holders but it is very clear that it has not been working for the over 70s.

Would you not agree that the bill for the extension of the scheme to the over 70s was initially €39,000 and is now €80,000? There has been total misinformation all along the line. There has been a total miscalculation.

Mr. Robinson

I admit that, Chairman. This was the area where we were absolutely weak. By doing a complete roll-call at least for the under-70s, we have found that our system is standing up. It is a problem that is related specifically to the over-70s. We changed the system of verification or I suppose one could say, we took our foot off the pedal after 1995 and we did not put an alternative in place - I am referring here to the north-east.

Mr. Lyons

The Chairman asked a question in relation to the deletions following the laminated card exercise in the ERHA region. The number totalled 4,763 due to death.

Is that in 1998?

Mr. Lyons

Between 1999 and 2001. We propose to include those in the overpayments exercise.

I am somewhat disappointed that the 1998 system of cleansing was not continued.

I wish to make an observation. The 30,000 cards were high-cost cards——

Ms Windle

It was a lower cost.

Sorry, I am saying they are the higher range in capitation. The older people are a higher charge. People were worried about the poor chap with the two or three children being given a card and it would not have cost as much.

A key part of the 1995 GMS directive was that the public health nurse and the community welfare officer would knock on doors and check on deaths. That was to be the new method of checking. Is that being done by the health boards and has it been in operation since 1995?

Mr. Robinson

In the ERHA we have community welfare officers and public health nurses. They have been doing a check against the list supplied. However, what I said in my statement was that we found that because of duplication of family names, the huge thing we have coming back, even though the CCEI system we talked about earlier will improve things immensely, is that until we sort out the data issue and use the PPS number, we have the problem that if a John Robinson dies at my address they do not know if it is me, my son or my father until they do a physical check. That is the manual side about which I have been talking. There is no automatic feed in. It is hugely time consuming and hugely consuming of staff. We are doing a number of things in all the boards as we pointed out in our statements.

Regardless of who devised this scheme - I assume it was a ministerial decision back in 1995 - a chief component part was that these checks would be done. Were they done in the other areas?

Looking at the opening statement, I see that in the ERHA the number of people with medical cards represents 25% of the population, whereas in the other areas of the country that I have looked at so far, the figures are more than 31.4% in the North-Eastern Health Board area, and 32.7% in the South-Eastern Health Board area. It appears that in the eastern area where there are RAPID area programmes and URBAN area programmes although there are huge areas of economic and social deprivation the percentage of people with medical cards is smaller than in the rural part of Ireland. Why does the urban part of the country have a lower proportion of medical cards than in the rural farming areas?

Mr. Lyons

I suppose the short answer is that the scheme is rigidly implemented in the context of the guidelines. The Deputy is absolutely right that there has been a drop in the number of eligible persons from 30% to 25% or 26% more recently, explained largely by the growing economy and the fact that people have dropped out of the eligibility net. However, the guidelines are agreed every year by the chief executive officers and they are applied by the community care workers in the individual health boards. It is on that basis that the coverage develops.

Is there any possibility that the eastern region chief executive officers and systems take a far more rigorous approach to the application particularly in areas where there is discretion over hardship or medical grounds than health boards in other areas?

Mr. Lyons

Perhaps one of my health board colleagues could reply.

Ms Windle

I would not think so. It is possible it may be influenced somewhat by the back to work scheme introduced in 2000 or 2001. Suffice to say there is an appeals system. If people feel they have not got fair assessment there is a very clear independent appeals system to which they can apply if they feel aggrieved about having been refused a medical card.

There appears to be a direct correlation between the number of people that have medical cards and access to third level education. One would expect an inverse correlation rather than a direct correlation. I would have thought if there were a lower number of people having medical cards around the Dublin area there should be a higher number of people going to third level institutions, but that is wrong. Is it the case that in urban areas most people are in PAYE jobs and their income is set out on a P60 form, but around the country there are not so many P60 forms to relate to income? It is a problem particularly now that more rigour is applied to the criteria set down. The people on a fixed income are not getting a fair crack of the whip as against people whose income is not subject to PAYE.

Ms Windle

It may well be that is part of the explanation. I do not have the analysis with me but we can get it for the Deputy.

There is another item directly related to the subject of today's meeting. I see that the deleted records in the ERHA region number 18,880 resulting in overpayments of €2.993 million. A number of health boards around the country have about 5,000 deleted records which is more than a quarter of the number in the ERHA area but the amount of money they expect to recover is about €350,000 on average. Based on the ERHA figure, one would expect that instead of €350,000 it should be double that in the other health boards. Why is the overpayment figure of €2.993 million so much higher on a per capita basis in the eastern region than in the other health board areas?

Mr. Lyons

There was a joint exercise in calculating the estimated overpayments conducted by the boards and the GMS. I ask Mr. Burke to answer the question.

Mr. Burke

In terms of computing the overpayment we provided the boards with a template which had the date the record was deleted from our system and then we captured the date it should have been deleted. We factored in the exact capitation rate going back over the years. The question as to why it might be higher in the eastern region is that more of the records may have gone back further.

So, the system in the eastern region is more accurate and has been there for a longer period. Are the other health boards not in that position? Do they not have records that go over that length of time?

Mr. Burke

From the records, all of them go back some period in time, but there might be a greater preponderance of records in the eastern region that go back further.

Why would it be more than double? The amount is nearly €156 per capita in the ERHA region, but yet the South-Eastern Health Board has 5,700 deleted records and expects to recover €248,631, which is about €40 per capita.

Mr. Burke

There is a capitation fee set. There are 50 different capitation fees set out over age, sex and distance. A different fee applied for every client on a GP's panel who falls into that category. That fee is an annual fee. If for argument's sake there is a client who was on the system for two years——

Why is there a difference of €156 per capita and €40 per capita irrespective of the different capitation fees?

Mr. Burke

If a client in one board area has a deduction of €40, that indicates he or she was there for just one year. If we deduct €160 in another board area, that indicates the client was there for four years. It relates to the length of time the record was on the system when it should not have been.

Does that mean that the system in the ERHA area was totally out of synchronisation for more than four years?

Mr. Burke

One could put it that way. In terms of computing——

The real problem was supposed to be in relation to the over-70s, which did not start until July 2001. How many people were on the ERHA records whose record should have been deleted prior to 2001? There must be huge numbers involved. It just does not tally.

Mr. Burke

What the boards have done in the past 12 months is to identify the incorrect records on the system. We have computed, in respect of each of those records, the duration for which they were incorrectly on the system. We have identified some 35,000 records and removed them from the system. If we take it that they were removed at 31 December, we have then looked back to find out how long those records were inadvertently present and we have made a calculation, applying the capitation rates accordingly. If we deduct €160 in respect of one client at €40 a year, it means that client was there for four years; a deduction of €40 means the client was there for one year. It relates specifically to the duration for which some of those records were on the system.

Perhaps Mr. Burke could provide the committee with a working paper, setting out the position.

Mr. Burke

Yes.

In relation to the over-70s, the health boards were expecting a certain number of new people to come on stream in 2001, which was related to the census figures of 1996, with whatever updating calculations were provided by the CSO. However, the actual number which came into the system was substantially higher, as we now know. Is there a possibility, even in the 2002 census, that a number of elderly people may not have filled in census forms and may be under-represented in the census figures? Is there any clarification available in that regard?

The Deputy's question is really a matter for the Central Statistics Office. However, the record of the CSO, over the years, would give us confidence that its figures are very robust. What the Deputy has suggested is always a possibility, but he should really address the question to the CSO.

When the numbers showed that there were so many people over 70 about to avail of the medical card system, did anybody in the Department of Health and Children take note of the fact that the figure was greater than would be indicated by the census figures?

When the picture which we now have first began to emerge, we looked at every option. For example, one of the possibilities suspected was that people over 70 were inadvertently being given the wrong card, so to speak - that they were being registered as people in respect of whom the GP was entitled to the higher capitation rather than the lower one. We consulted the CSO and carried out a range of checks on the possibilities. Eventually, the only feasible explanation was there were still people on the medical card list who should have been removed and that is the one on which we have been working diligently. At the end of the day, it does not make much difference whether the CSO figure is right or wrong in relation to the over-70s if we can be sure the medical card lists, as they exist, are accurate.

I would like to be sure the repayment figures which have been computed include all the years concerned, going back to at least the year 2000 and that all of the boards have followed that approach. They may have done so already, but I would like to have confirmation of that. Perhaps, when Mr. Burke is providing his analysis of the differences, he would outline the precise situation with regard to each board and for each year.

Information on recoveries for the earlier period to 1998 would also be important. With regard to capitation, are there any specific examples of capitation overpayments to GPs from the GMS?

Mr. Lyons

In relation to Deputy Ardagh's earlier concerns, we have done the analysis with, I would say, 75% to 80% accuracy and we are working on the balance to ensure 100% accuracy when we drill down into the remaining numbers. On the question of examples of overpayments, we have no indication yet as to what might be involved with regard to individual GPs.

I have just one further question for Mr. Robinson in relation to the North-Eastern Health Board. A number of health boards have said, as a final statement on national system requirements: "I am of the view that the following initiatives need to take place on a national basis as soon as possible. . . " That is followed by a list including PPS number, REACH, CCEI and the SWIPE system. That appears on a number of the opening statements. Clearly, the boards have been able to come together and agree on a certain view on these matters. Why could the boards not come together to agree on a system, whether computerised or manual, to be put in place so that these problems would not occur in the first place?

Mr. Robinson

The boards initially came together in 2001 to do a complete review of the medical card system. That was carried out over a period and we submitted it to the Department. Subsequently, we set up a number of groups which are currently working. In the appendix to our submission, I have pointed out that, while we say we have come to a view on a number of areas, we have also identified and commenced work on a number of issues in respect of which we see a need for the boards to act jointly. An example of this paying off already is that the information which we have now presented to this committee has been partly prepared jointly by the boards in collaboration with the GMS. With regard to the reference to computer systems - and this relates to Mr. Lyons's comments as to what we would see as a need for a huge increase in investment in information technology - in the context of preparations in 2000 for anticipated Y2K problems, a number of boards came together, including north eastern, ERHA, mid-west and north west, as a result of which we each now have the same computer system. We are working on the client eligibility index with the GMS payments board in the north east to try to develop——

I regret to interrupt Mr. Robinson. Can he confirm that all of the health boards are working together so that a uniform computer system - or whatever data management system - can be fully integrated into the GMS payments board? Can we expect to have that in place within a stated period of time?

Mr. Robinson

It could take a couple of years but that is the ultimate aim.

Did Mr. Lyons expect that to be the case? I ask that because the Eastern Regional Health Authority is the largest health authority in the country.

Mr. Lyons

I agree with Mr. Robinson. There is a need and we are working on that. There is also a question regarding the investment required. In a technical sense, it should not take more than a couple of years to work out.

Has the Department of Health and Children reached agreement with the Irish Pharmaceutical Union on the extension of the medical card scheme to all those over 70 years? Is that agreement in place?

At what stage are negotiations between the Department of Health and Children and the IMO concerning refunds of capitation over-payments by GPs?

As I outlined in my statement, there was a meeting under the auspices of the Health Services Employers Agency. The IMO is informed of the situation as it emerges. It is first necessary to calculate precisely in respect of each GP what the over-payment is. As I understand the legal situation, we would then have to negotiate an arrangement with the IMO as to the process or formula by which the over-payments would be clawed back.

How confident are you that the over-payments can be repaid or recouped?

We would be very confident they could be recouped unless there is some unforeseen legal obstacle which has not been raised to date.

What led you to believe there would be a legal difficulty in getting the payments back?

On the last occasion the Secretary General attended the committee to discuss the drugs payments scheme, there was legal advice from the Attorney General to that effect. In the interregnum of the drugs payments scheme, many people lost out but some benefited. There was clear legal advice from the Office of the Attorney General that we could not seek to recoup from those who benefited because of an error made on the official side.

There is, perhaps, a danger in this regard. We have discussed here whether the culpability lies with the GPs or the board or otherwise but, unless something unforeseen arises, the legal advice at present is that we are perfectly entitled to seek to recoup the over-payments. However, that must be done in agreement with the Irish Medical Organisation or the representative bodies for GPs. I presume this is to protect against a case where, for example, a GP who was over-paid a large sum of money is forced to repay that sum in a short period, such as one month, so that he or she is left without any income. It should be repaid over a period.

I was delighted following the meeting that the issue with regard to the drugs payments scheme was resolved. That is to the benefit of the 175,000 people who can now apply for a recoupment.

I think the Secretary General has written to the committee informing it of the situation.

I am delighted with that and thank you for it. I thank all who attended today's meeting. It has been a very good debate. I look forward in my time as Chairman of the committee to hearing from you all on many occasions. Thank you.

Sitting suspended at 1.25 p.m. and resumed at 2.20 p.m.

We will now deal with medical card duplication and the upkeep and accuracy of the medical card database. I welcome representatives of the health boards, the Department of Health and Children and the General Medical Services (Payments) Board.

Witnesses should be made aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege. Witnesses' attention is drawn to the fact that from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 grants certain rights to persons who are identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These rights include the right to give evidence, the right to produce or send documents to the committee, the right to appear before the committee either in person or through a representative, the right to make a written or oral submission, the right to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents and the right to cross-examine witnesses. For the most part, these rights may be exercised only with the consent of the committee. Persons invited before the committee are made aware of these rights and any person identified in the course of proceedings who is not present may have to be made aware of these rights and provided with a transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice.

Notwithstanding this provision in legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 156 that the committee shall also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such a policy.

I ask the chief executive officers of the health boards to introduce themselves.

Mr. Pat Harvey

I am chief executive officer of the North-Western Health Board. I am accompanied by Mr. Tom Kelly, who is the assistant chief executive officer, involved in community care services, and Mr. Willie Murphy, who is the board's human resource director.

Mr. Seán Hurley

I am chief executive officer of the Southern Health Board. I am accompanied by Mr. Pat Healy, who is the community services programme manager, and Ms Mary Murphy, who is the general manager of community services in north Cork.

Mr. Pat McLoughlin

I am chief executive officer of the South-Eastern Health Board. I am joined by Mr. Cathal O'Reilly, who is the acting director of the primary care unit, and Mr. Greg Price, who is the regional appeals and complaints manager.

Mr. Stiofán de Búrca

I am accompanied by Mr. Seamus Woods, who is the Mid-Western Health Board's director of welfare services, and Mr. Paddy McDonald, who is the director of finance.

Dr. Sheelah Ryan

I am accompanied by Mr. Seamus Mannion, who is the Western Health Board's regional manager for community services and Mr. Noel Brett, who is the regional manager for older people's services.

Mr. Patrick Gaughen

I am accompanied by Mr. Pat O'Dowd, who is the Midland Health Board's assistant chief executive officer and is responsible for community services and Mr. Pat Marron, who is the manager of the primary care unit.

I wish Mr. Gaughen well on his appointment. I ask the representatives of the Department of Health and Children to introduce themselves.

I am the Department's deputy secretary. I am accompanied by Mr. Dermot McCann from the Department's finance unit and Mr. Bernard Carey, who is involved in human resources.

I ask the representatives of the General Medical Services (Payments) Board to introduce themselves.

I am the chief executive officer of the board. I am accompanied by Ms Carmel Burke, who is head of the investigations unit and Mr. Ivan McConkey, who is the board's IT manager.

I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to introduce the issues.

Mr. Purcell

I do not want to repeat what was said this morning, but I will pick up on some of the issues. The note sent by the Department of Health and Children to the committee makes clear that 39,491 medical cards have been removed from the database, across the health boards, as a result of this examination. The majority of the cards relate to people over the age of 70 and seem to result from the failure to remove from the system people who have died. We spoke this morning about the various responsibilities in the maintenance of the databases and we received some clarity on the matter near the end of the session. I also referred this morning to a lack of diligence in the health boards between 1998 and 2001. They did not build on the achievement of cleaning out the database in 1998, following the introduction of a laminated plastic card system. The Chair raised the pertinent question of future contact with the IMO in relation to recovery. There also may be recoveries due from GPs on foot of some of the earlier removals and not just those that relate to this exercise. As I said, about 30,000 cards were removed in 1998. There may be an additional crock of gold to be recovered.

It was pointed out this morning on a number of occasions that, regardless of one's ICT capabilities, one's basic data needs to be correct. Perhaps there was some confusion in that regard, but the chief executive officers said that ICT developments facilitated the kind of cross-checks that had been very resource-intensive on a manual basis. That was the real point.

The Department's 1995 letter, which suggested a particular course of action to ensure the continued entitlement to a medical card of those over 70, was also discussed. It is clear the letter had some impact, although it may have been unintentional. There was also a reference to the dilution of the general practitioner's responsibility for accuracy under the service contract. The original intention was that the GP would confirm that the list or panel was up to date. These are the main issues arising from this morning's session.

Mr. Harvey

I am conscious that the chairman does not wish us to go through the full presentation in advance.

Can we publish the full statement?

Mr. Harvey

Of course. The statement outlines the policies, procedures and arrangements the North-Western Health Board has put in place as measures of control. The significant point is that some of our controlled checks are made in relative not absolute real time. Some relate to roll calls. A few weeks may elapse before we obtain notifications from the Department of Social and Family Affairs which is why I refer to relative real time.

According to our review, roughly 97,000 people were covered over a two year period. A table in our document outlines the population estimate of the CSO and the numbers associated with our register. In terms of identifying and computing overpayments, it is inevitable that some weeks will elapse between the removal of client's records and the due date for removal. Information is historical and a three month time period is reasonable. Some 63% of overpayments fall into that category. Most of the rest would be subject to the elapse of a few more months, but generally records are processed within a 12 month period.

In the main, the board's control measures have successfully maintained a reasonable level of currency in the medical card database. We appreciate that there are some numbers which present difficulties and we have plans to recover overpayments in that regard. We will work in conjunction with other boards to negotiate with general practitioners and their representative bodies to agree a process. Details of the staff numbers involved in the administration of the computerised medical card system are available to the committee in the published document. Our statement outlines further possible improvements which would be assisted by developments within the system of the General Register Office.

Mr. Hurley

I present a summary of some of the key points of the document we have brought before the committee. The Southern Health Board has completed a full roll call and validation of persons aged 65 and over on our medical card register. I confirm that the entire medical card register is valid and that its integrity is not in doubt. During our validation work, a number of IT issues arose which have been discussed already this morning. Questions arose also in relation to the letter issued by the Department of Health and Children in 1995 and the 1993 changes in certification by general practitioners. Despite the 1993 change, we have continued on an annual basis to send all our general practitioners the full panel every year urging them to examine and confirm its veracity. That course has not been very effective because GPs have by and large ignored our request.

We have now removed 8,939 medical cards from the register, 4,695 of which were picked up as part of our routine process of ongoing validation. The other 4,244 cards were identified through the specific validation exercises initiated recently. Of the total number of cards removed from the register, 3,177 were removed on the correct date, which means that no overpayments resulted in relation to them. We were left with 5,762 card holders in respect of whom overpayments were made. Of those, 73% of overpayments arose in the last two years, which means the problems are very recent.

May we publish your document?

Mr. Hurley

I have no problem with that.

Mr. McLoughlin

There is no difficulty with publication of the South-Eastern Health Board document. In common with other boards, we changed our system in 1995 and it has become clear that those changes were insufficient to record deaths and population movements. The main problem with the system was the heavy work load of the groups involved and public health nurses. It is in the past three years that our performance in this regard has significantly disimproved. In local offices, Y2K compliance, drugs payment schemes and other issues were given a higher priority while there were certification issues with general practitioners.

We have identified €248,631 in overpayments thus far and, like my colleagues, we intend to pursue the recovery of the entire sum. We are carrying out a similarly comprehensive roll call for the 65 to 69 year old age group which we expect to complete in six to eight weeks. When one examines the rest of the database, it becomes clear that the previous and existing systems of carrying out reviews are effective. Our problems have occurred in the over-65 age group. The measures I have identified are similar to those agreed by all health boards. The exercise is manual and tedious but we do not blame IT systems. The IT systems of the General Register Office, the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the personal public service number will allow us to clean up our databases significantly without manual input.

Mr. de Búrca

The Mid-Western Health Board offers a similar document for publication.

Thank you.

Mr. de Búrca

Our report addresses entitlement, the problem of inappropriate registration, the problem of investigating the database, corrective actions and the current condition of the database. It contains our suggestions with regard to national system requirements which are similar to those offered by our colleagues on other boards.

The extension of entitlements to the over 70s was a departure from the legislation. According to current practice, approximately half of our medical cards are reviewed every year based on certain criteria to which we refer in our document. Inappropriate registrations numbered 2,834 out of a total of 6,015 new registrations of people aged 70 years and over. That converts to overpayments of approximately €425,000. National concerns prompted a structured investigation to validate the medical card database informed by recommendations adopted regarding a controlled strategy and key control risk points in the card cycle. A full-time project team led by a superintendent was appointed to carry out the task. The basis of the problem was identified as inappropriate registration of persons over 70 who had died or moved away from the health board area. Our task was to prevent a recurrence of this problem which required adopting new measures.

The critical document in the change from traditional practice was the letter of March 1995 which indicated that the panel of persons over 70 should be reviewed every five years and that sending of forms to card holders should be avoided. Alternative mechanisms were put in place which depended on public health nurses and community welfare officers who at that time and subsequently were subject to considerable additional pressures in their core health and welfare duties. Our computer systems did not and do not support key information exchanges which is an issue we must address as a priority.

There are also other critical barriers. The decision to extend the eligibility criteria to all persons over 70 years of age increased control difficulties, as many medical card holders were not within the usual notification systems, for example, with regard to changes in social welfare payment.

There is no explicit requirement on GPs to notify health boards of a change on their panel. This arose following the introduction of the capitation agreement in March 1989. We have already mentioned the increasing workload of local medical card offices. However, the question had to be addressed in terms of the management and control of this process.

Our corrective actions included a follow up which identified duplicate and inactivity listings produced by the payments board, a review of patient registers in long stay institutions and other measures. Our controls attempted to connect central responsibility. Checks were carried out on local registrars' offices and we were vigilant with regard to press death notices and so on. We hope these actions have demonstrated that the board has now achieved a much higher level of accuracy with regard to the register. The current position is that our database of people over 70 years has been virtually cleansed. There remain some minor issues related to the difference between the estimated census of the population and the number of people for whom we have accounted.

With regard to the 65 to 69 years group, our review of the registration of this group, which accounts for more than a third of all registrations, found that everything seemed to be in order. With regard to the under 65 years group, we have a planned and scheduled review programme in place.

Without going into detail, there are many requirements which the national system must adopt, not least of which is the resolution of the PPS numbers as the national unique identifier and the implementation of other information controls which would enable us to guarantee a high level of accuracy.

Dr. Ryan

Our full report will be submitted to the committee for the records. We recognise that the medical card is probably the most significant provision of the Health Act. Our aim throughout has been to be as responsive as we can to those who have an entitlement to a medical card, while being mindful of our accountability. In recent years we have achieved a significant improvement in our performance, particularly in relation to our responsiveness to the system. In our IT updates we have minimised any duplicates in our system, as can be seen from the final exercise. Except where controls were relaxed for the reasons already given, our controls for the remainder of our database are generally good.

The essence of the system is that we have about 12 different categories of clients, other than the elderly, which have automatic cancellation dates of between one year and five years and will, therefore, be picked up in a systematic way. Having said that, there were significant weaknesses in the system. Our approach during the validation system was to cancel cards as soon as we became aware of the death of their holders. This was the primary issue for us.

Putting in place new controls meant getting a range of data from other sources and checking it manually to cross-reference with our own files. To take one example, this has resulted in about 500 extra records a month being cross-checked manually by our clerical staff. This proves very inefficient in terms of what integrated computerisation can do, but it has certainly improved our validation. We believe the new checks and controls we have put in place will ensure we are much more accountable in future.

In relation to the statistical data on page 8 of our report, of the 6,800 cards that were cancelled, 38% were routine which meant no overpayments were made. Of the remaining 4,000, some 50% were cancelled within less than three months. The others, those cancelled after more than three months, are the group attracting the payments. The GMS payments board's current estimate of the cost of these payments to the Western Health Board is in the region of €440,000.

I acknowledge and accept that serious shortcomings occurred in our administration of the medical card system. I assure the committee that we have fully reconciled our data and I am happy to stand over the controls we have put in place. We are fully committed to making sure the recruitment and the ongoing controls and modernisation go ahead.

Notwithstanding the seriousness of the issues raised, we would like the committee to know we put patients and the needs of those who have an entitlement to a medical card first at all times. Due to the publicity surrounding this issue, we have had to do a great deal of work to make sure people entitled to medical cards did not begin to fear they would lose their entitlement. Perhaps the committee could endorse this message today.

Mr. Gaughen

I am happy to have the report, as submitted, published. I will be brief. On the first page of the report we outline that 71,147 people are on the register for medical cards in the midlands. This figure is up to date. The total population covered is 225,588 which means coverage is 31.55%. I am clarifying this issue because it arose earlier.

I have outlined corrective actions on page 3 of the report. They are very similar to what my colleagues have endeavoured to do. The one action I pick out as additional to some of the others mentioned is our decision to circulate lists to each general practitioner. We had an 80% response rate and about 542 cards were cancelled as a result of this exercise.

Page 4 of the report outlines the overall position regarding the over 70 age group. At this point our figures show we are below the target population. As Members will see from the table, an estimated 122 persons have yet to apply, which is testimony to the fact that the database has been thoroughly checked out. I am happy to stand over it.

The total estimate of overpayments is in the order of €425,000. We believe this figure is accurate to within €1,000 or €2,000. We have traced the date of death in 96% of cases in which the cards have been cancelled and are still pursuing the remaining 4%. In most of these cases, part of the overpayment would be included in our figure in any event because overpayments from the date of cancellation have been included even though we are trying to work out the actual date of death. This is the reason I am fairly confident the figure of €425,000 is within a couple of thousand euro of the true figure.

I have also outlined in the report the measures we have put in place to ensure we keep the register up to date. Like my colleagues, I endorse all the suggestions concerning national co-operation and the introduction of a unique identifier etc. I have outlined in appendix 1 a breakdown of the analysis of the overpayments. As has been the case with a number of my colleagues, the bulk of these occurred from 2001 onwards.

The opening statement has been circulated. Do the witnesses wish to comment on it or are they happy with it?

We are happy with it.

The witnesses are free to comment on it.

I have no further comment except to repeat what I said this morning. Apart from the developments just outlined by the chief executive officers of the boards, there have been a couple of further developments at national level. These are the Deloitte & Touche report into governance and accountability in the GMS system, the Brennan report on financial accountability in the wider health system, which makes specific recommendations on the GMS, and the report on structures in the health system carried out by Prospectus, which will be available soon.

All three reports will be submitted to the Government at an early date. The Department is committed, with the health boards, to implementing whatever conclusions or recommendations emerge. The whole governance and accountability system for the GMS could, therefore, be radically altered quite quickly.

Is it subject to approval by the Government?

To start the afternoon, I will briefly summarise developments so far. Officials from the Department of Health and Children appeared before the committee in the middle of January. During the discussion, we discovered that more than 20,000 medical cards are either inappropriately in circulation or in the process of being withdrawn. The Department sent us an interim report in mid-February which indicated a figure in excess of 30,000, yet a month later the figure has almost reached 40,000.

When the matter was brought to the attention of the Department, it became possible to track and deal with the issue, which leads me to the conclusion that there was a lack of pro-activity in its approach. Nobody was dealing with the problem which became progressively worse and then the Department was forced to approach the various health boards. It has clearly placed the blame - rightly or wrongly - at the doors of the health boards.

I will address my next point initially to the Department of Health and Children. A number of the health boards specifically referred to a letter from the Department dated 9 March 1995. I will not read the entire letter but I will read two or three lines from it. The letter is addressed to the chief executive officer of each health board and states:

Medical card holders over 70 years of age should be reviewed every five years. The review should take the form of the local Public Health Nurse or Community Welfare Officer indicating to the board that the person is still living and that there has been no radical alteration in his/her circumstances.

The letter further states: "The sending of forms to the medical card holders should be avoided." The recommendation of a five yearly basis for the review is one which a number of health boards have specifically referred to as having had an adverse effect on the efficiency with which they monitored the medical card system. Does the Department accept that this had a negative impact on the efficient management of the system?

It was not intended to have that impact on the system. I know from speaking to our colleague chief executive officers and from some of the contributions that were made, that they trace a deterioration in the system to this letter.

Deputy Curran quoted some elements of this letter which was issued on the instructions of the then Minister for Health and Children. It came in response to the high level of representations on this matter which the Minister and the Department received. Elderly people were getting correspondence letters to indicate that their medical card was due to lapse on a certain date which created a huge level of anxiety among card holders. On foot of this, the Minister suggested that we talk to the health boards and see if some other system could be put in place which would not create the same level of anxiety and this letter was issued following discussion with the boards. The letter states that the procedures were not intended to interfere with the arrangements already in place to ensure that the patient panels were accurate. I accept what the chief executive officers say, which is that some of the current problems can be traced back to that.

Let me be blunt. While the last line quoted was an effort to cover the Department, the instructions were quite specific - that over-70s should only be reviewed on a five yearly basis. I found it very puzzling when I read the letter because I did not think the idea of a public health nurse or a community welfare officer calling on an annual basis would be a huge intrusion. Bearing in mind that one's life expectancy diminishes as one gets older, a five-year period seems excessively long. That said, the review was held in 1998 and we have this current issue facing us now. Has any new instruction been issued by the Department which supersedes the 1995 letter?

No, not to supersede it. The other letters issued in this regard were probably all generated as a result of the problem which began to emerge once the budget 2000 decision began to be implemented.

Can Mr. Mooney confirm that it is current departmental policy that people over 70 should only be reviewed every five years?

It was on an instruction from the Minister of the day that the Department issued that letter.

Is that the current procedure and policy?

Technically it is the current policy but it has been overtaken by the exercise in which we are now involved.

The instruction in that letter should be withdrawn, as it appears to be one of the key issues which is unsatisfactory from the Department's point of view. I am not defending the health boards because they were ultimately responsible but this did lead to a certain type of practice which has not helped what we were trying to do.

I will take note of that and discuss it with the Minister.

I have just one or two other brief questions. Various health boards have tried to estimate the cost of the over-payments and I do not wish to get into this in detail.

Although calculations have been made by the GMS it is not in a position to calculate accurately because it does not have all the information required. It is necessary to know the numbers of people in possession of inappropriately held cards and it is necessary to know the duration of this state of affairs. Files exist which contain the details of numbers of people where this information could not be accurately determined. The Department's figure of €6 million does not appear to have much basis. With the lack of information coming from the health boards I cannot see how that figure could stack up.

I have a general question for the health boards. Nearly 40,000 medical cards have been withdrawn for a variety of reasons. Some 37,500 or 38,500 of these relate to people who are over the age of 70 and some 70% or 80% of these cases relate to people who have died. I have heard all sorts of reasons for why this is the case; the absence of adequate computerised systems and so on. However, the majority of cases relate to people who are deceased and the explanations of the actual procedures have been inadequate. Even with a modern computerised system if there is not a procedure in place to input the data when somebody dies then the system is irrelevant and will not produce the correct output. It is difficult to understand how the authorities would not be alerted to a persons' death by the inactivity of a particular file, given that people with medical cards routinely send in documentation in regard to drugs and so on. The crux of the problem is that there is not an appropriate mechanism where the names of deceased card holders are automatically removed from the system. Some 38,000 of the 40,000 card holders are more than 70% and 80% of the total number of people no longer entitled to hold a valid card is accounted for by the fact that these people have died.

There still appears to be a lack of clarity and an inability to deal with this process, particularly in regard to whose responsibility it is and how it happens. Perhaps the Department of Health and Children should have a specific procedure, which would be applicable to all health boards. I presume this is in the pipeline as it is the most urgent issue to be tackled.

The health boards should write to all the GPs, most of whom are probably aware of the matter which is currently under investigation. They should be made aware that the Department will endeavour to recoup all the over-payments.

Recently the Department of Social and Family Affairs came before this committee. We were informed that when over-payments are made by it the common practice is that they are recovered. We would expect to see the over-payments recovered in this case also. The identity of GPs involved in this regard should be made known.

GPs should be notified that a medical card should cease to be valid on the death of its holder even if this is not detected for a period of time. The position should be clearly spelled out to GPs. It will then be in the interest of GPs, knowing that they will not get paid from the date of death, to make sure the list is correct and to forward the relevant information to the authorities. GPs must know that the medical cards become invalid from the date of death, even if this is not discovered in the system for months or years.

Does any chief executive want to respond to those remarks?

Mr. Harvey

There are some variations in practices depending on the resources of the boards. For instance, in the north-west we depend very heavily on our community welfare officers and public health nurses to alert us and we tend not to write to GPs to confirm their panels. The community welfare officers are generally in the know and the GPs are aware that they are not entitled to moneys after the expiry of both patient and medical card. We need a collective rather than a fragmented approach to recovering moneys from GPs. There is every good reason GPs will be fully knowledgeable as a result of this exercise.

Mr. de Búrca

We have identified the necessity of computerisation and we accept totally that one has to have high-quality input. Currently, my colleague in Cork is running the pilot site for the Grow project on births, deaths and marriages, which will link with the General Medical Services (Payments) Board's computer system. Therefore, there will be an automatic interface between the two systems, but it still goes without saying that accurate data have to be input.

How does one calculate an overpayment if the date of death is unknown?

Mr. de Búrca

We arrive at that figure on the basis of the calculations where the date of death is known.

An average is an average.

I agree that €6 million is an estimate and I said in the note that it was only indicative. The reason I mentioned it at all was because I indicated to the committee the last day I attended that we thought the figure was in the region of €12 million. All the evidence we are getting from the boards suggests that was a gross over-estimation.

I observed on the fist day Mr. Mooney attended that there were 20,000 cards involved and an estimated overpayment of €12 million. The figure of 20,000 has now become 40,000 and the estimated overpayment has been halved.

The figure of €12 million was based on an estimate calculated at a time when the examination had not been completed. Because of information given to the payments boards it was clear the boards first went after the batches of cards, such as those that had not been used for some years. Therefore, they had a higher rate of cull, so to speak, in the earlier stages of the exercise than it the latter part.

Of the 40,000 cards that have been withdrawn, what was the average period for which they were in circulation inappropriately?

Mr. de Búrca

In respect of most of the boards it stretches back over all of the years. If it would help the committee, I could create a summary page and circulate it.

Would the period be for two or three years or more?

Mr. de Búrca

Yes.

The cost is extensive when this is taken into account.

Will Mr. Burke make the summary available to us?

Does any other chief executive officer want to comment?

Will we ever get a penny of the money back?

Mr. de Búrca

From the GPs? We——

Mr. de Búrca

——have to.

Does Mr. Burke know if the General Medical Services (Payments) Board has drawn any conclusions from the huge divergence in the overpayments between the different health boards? Obviously, there is divergence because of the different populations of the health board areas. How can it be explained that the North-Western Health Board's overpayment is only €91,439 while the Midland Health Board, which has a smaller population in its area, has an overpayment of €403,442? I could cite other examples which demonstrate a similar divergence. Did the North-Western Health Board have controls in place that were not in place in other health boards? Were its procedures and criteria - Mr. Harvey referred to community welfare officers and public health nurses - much more effective in detecting when people had shuffled off the mortal coil? What lessons have been learned?

Mr. de Búrca

The answer to the question is "Yes". We spoke this morning about providing the committee with a brief paper setting out how calculations are made. If, for argument's sake, there were two clients of one board who remained on its database inappropriately for five years and two clients of another board who were only on its database inappropriately for one year, the figure pertaining to the second board would be much less than that pertaining to the first. The amount computed in respect of the overpayment is directly related to the number of clients who were on a database mistakenly for a longer period.

Does that mean that the North-Western Health Board winkled out more quickly the cards that were no longer valid?

Mr. Harvey

I am not entirely privy to the information of the boards. Two thirds of the overpayments of my own board relate to over-70s, where the date of death was within the previous three months, and most others were where the date of death was within the previous 12 months. Our numbers did not extend back to other years to any great extent. As Mr. Burke stated, the sum one has to pay is entirely a function of the number of medical cards in question and the length of time for which they are mistakenly listed on databases.

From reading the report, the average time for which medical cards are mistakenly listed on databases in Mr. Harvey's health board seems to be roughly the same as that pertaining to the others. It indicates that there were no consistent criteria across the health boards to ensure the validity and currency of existing medical cards, especially for the elderly.

Mr. Harvey

There are consistent criteria across health boards in general but not every board has the exact same arrangement.

Yes, but there must be an extremely divergent pattern if it can be said that one board has an overpayment of €91,000 and another with a similar or smaller population in its area has an overpayment of €403,000. Is that the case?

Mr. de Búrca

Yes.

When the issue of doctors arose on 16 January some of us found it extraordinary that they would continue to accept payments in respect of medical cards of dead patients. One would expect that the doctors would have known they were no longer alive. Has there been any investigation into why this continued for some years? Does the board have any specific information on doctors who would have been in the higher bracket in terms of money received in respect of medical cards of deceased patients? Does Mr. Burke have any specific instances he can relate to us?

Mr. de Búrca

I am not sure I can answer the question in the sense that the GMS payments board has no contract with GPs. It has a contract with the individual health boards. The GMS payments board's remit is to reimburse for services provided by the primary care contractors, including GPs. However, we do not have a contract with any GPs. That lies with the health boards.

The average across the board is roughly €3,000 per doctor, if we take the €6 million as the new global figure. That suggests that some doctors may have been overpaid by as much as €15,000 or €20,000 and others by very little. Can any of the chief executives give the committee a few instances of higher examples, if they have investigated, how this was allowed to happen and if they questioned the doctors? My last question on that, because of time constraints——

Perhaps the Deputy would prefer a reply to that first.

I would, yes.

Do any of the chief executives wish to take up that question on the comparisons of overpayments?

Mr. McLoughlin

In the south east, the average per doctor is a little more than €1,000 but there are significant margins in that and it would depend on the structure of the doctor's panel. If he or she was in an area with a young panel, there may not have been many deaths. There have been varying degrees of co-operation from GPs in advising us whether there have been deaths. However, one needs to look at the overall structure of the doctor's panel and whether he or she is in an area where there may have been many elderly patients anyway. The average for the south east is about €1,000, based on 207 GPs in the system.

Do any of the chief executives know of payments in excess of €10,000 and are they investigated?

Mr. de Búrca

Direct investigations?

Mr. de Búrca

We have identified the cases. The next action is to recover the money. Every GP to whom an overpayment was made is now facing recovery. To confirm the point my colleague made, my highest overpayment is of the order of €11,800, but it is related to a GP in an area with a high population of elderly people in the west of Ireland. That bears out Mr. McLoughlin's point that the debate is related to the age profile.

It is extraordinary that the GPs did not notice the number of people who were deceased.

Mr. de Búrca

Since 1989 and the introduction of the capitation system, there is no obligation on them to notify.

That brings me to my last point. Are doctors not required to play a much more pro-active role in this regard? Should there not be a requirement on the general practitioner to notify the health board when a death comes to his or her attention? In many cases, they will be there to certify the death so it seems extraordinary that this is not a requirement. Who can now make this a requirement for GPs as part of their contract with health boards and should this not be done?

Mr. de Búrca

I agree. The certification procedures have been diluted and they need to be strengthened and re-negotiated. Given that we now reimburse doctors for administrations costs, it is appropriate that we re-negotiate.

We are now talking about a figure between the current estimate of €6 million and the previous estimate of €12 million in overpayments. We do not yet know what that figure is. It could be nearer to one or other of those. Some of the chief executive officers mentioned earlier that this was fraudulent abuse and that they were dealing with the IMO in their recovery of this money. Why are the boards not dealing directly with GPs in the recovery of this money? When the money is recovered, will it be subject to interest and penalties? Is it possible that some of these GPs are serving on health boards as I know some do? Has a possible conflict of interest been investigated?

Various chief executive officers have also said they work with the hospital social welfare officers and local knowledge in trying to establish the numbers. There were approximately 30,000 people over 70, who were deceased, yet someone was drawing money down for dealing with them, particularly in rural areas. Deputy Higgins has noted the North-Western Health Board specifically. Could someone be appointed in each health board area to read the death notices in the newspapers every morning, particularly in rural areas? Every death is announced twice a day on local radio. It would be easy. There are enough staff working in health boards for one person to deal with that - listen to the radio twice a day. Perhaps north west radio coverage——

Local Deputies do that.

This is not a joke. Of course, Deputies do that but we do not have recourse to report to the health boards that people have died. It is an easy means of finding out who is dead and who is alive so doctors could not draw money in a fraudulent manner for dealing with patients who are already dead. This is a figure of between €6 million and €12 million but we do not know yet.

Does anyone want to react to that?

Mr. Harvey

Many of the boards listen to local radio and capture information in that way. As to the overpayments, if any one of us got overpaid in salary, we would have to pay it back. There is no doubt but that the money must be recovered. To be fair to GPs, and it may seem they are casual in their handling of their panel numbers and their accuracy, they would argue that there are many instances where they are not being paid, are due payment for different reasons. The IMO would argue that, for the €6 million overpayment, they will comfortably come back with a counterclaim of more than that for that which they have not been paid and have been just as casual about.

I thought that was going to happen.

Mr. Harvey

It may make better sense to go at this in a collective way but technically there is no reason we, as individuals, could not go after individual GPs. That has to be considered as a strategy too.

Are GPs still giving service in the case of medical cards which are still circulating but which have been invalidated and have not yet been handed back to health boards? These cards may have been cancelled in the system but the holders are still using them.

Mr. Harvey

There can be instances of where we have withdrawn a card and the GPs continue to offer service.

Do the doctors get paid in that situation?

Mr. Harvey

No.

How widespread is that scenario?

Mr. Harvey

It is not hugely widespread but they would argue that there are any number of instances where they are not that rigorous in their administration that they record every special event that attracts extra payments. They would argue that, in the swings and roundabouts, they may have something to apologise for here but there are other things for which they do not claim. That will be a significant debate and negotiation with the IMO.

Why are we dealing with the IMO? Why can the health boards not deal with the individual GPs who have drawn in excess of what they should have?

That is a good point. Why do the chief executive officers not deal with individual doctors rather than the IMO?

Mr. Harvey

We could do so but the IMO has negotiating rights on behalf of the GPs, which is part of the implied contract with the GPs.

I agree with what Mr. Harvey has just said. Let me explain the system again. My understanding is that when a patient is issued with a medical card, he or she is assigned to a GP's panel and that this is notified by the health boards to the payments board - Mr. Burke's organisation. The board will then continue to pay the GP for that person until such time as he or she is notified by the board that the card has been withdrawn. There is no system of claims by GPs as such. I would be concerned about the use of the word "fraudulent" in relation to GPs. The IMO might get very concerned if it thought I was here defending its position but I simply want to clarify the situation. GPs do not make claims.

It is the whole system that is incorrect.

I did not introduce the word "fraudulent". It was mentioned this morning. As I did not speak at all until the afternoon, it did not come from this end of the table.

It has been mentioned that the payment goes to the GP. I know that the IMO has negotiating rights but if somebody owed me money, I would go after him or her directly, not his or her association or union. That seems to be the common-sense approach. Will this become public? Is the public entitled to know the names of the doctors who received money that they should not have received?

I do not agree with Deputy Curran's analysis that the problem should be solved by having a review of medical cards over a period of less than five years. It would be most distressing for somebody legitimately entitled to a medical card - someone over 70 years of age - to receive a circular stating the status of his or her medical card was being reviewed. There should be other means of solving the problem without putting an unnecessary burden on people. They should not have to fill out forms again and reapply for cards to which they are legitimately entitled.

As part of our schedule I was asked to direct my questions to Mr. Hurley of the Southern Health Board. This applies to every health board, although I am only addressing my comments to one. How many of the patients died in hospitals run directly by the health board, with the death certificate issued by the board? I know that county councils receive lists of people who have died from the health boards on a regular basis in order that they can update the voters' register. The information in the health boards should also have been available to update medical card registers. How many relatives of those who died received death grants in respect of funeral expenses from the same health board which would continue to pay medical card expenses to the GPs concerned? Has Mr. Hurley considered this aspect?

Mr. Hurley

The number who died in one of our institutions was 711. I do not have an answer to the Deputy's second question and I am not aware of whether that point was considered. We can investigate it because the death grant would have been paid out through the SWA system.

We have heard here about what a good source of knowledge and information community welfare officers are. Some of the health boards seem to have used them effectively for this purpose. I would be surprised if funeral expenses were paid without any follow through in respect of medical card payments. It sounds an absurd thing to happen within a health board organisation.

The recovery of overpayments was mentioned. I am looking at Mr. Hurley's report in which he gives a good figure of €934,000 recovered from 319 GPs - an average of €3,000 each. This is not recovered for the health board - it is taxpayer's money. That is the reason we are here. Every morning while driving here I have been hearing about expenditure related difficulties in the health service. The money that has gone to the service came from the taxpayer and it has been applied for inappropriate purposes due to maladministration. I am not calling it fraud: I do not think there was any deliberate attempt to seek money in this manner. However, I do call it maladministration.

I am shocked at what is contained in the paragraph about recovering overpayments. It states Mr. Hurley will adopt a common approach with his chief executive officer colleagues, that consideration will be given to this, subject to general legal advice, that they will prepare options for consideration by the chief executive officer group and Secretaries General which will, in turn, lead to a negotiation process with general practitioners which may require individual and collective approaches and that they have already had consultations with the IMO. I have never heard such a weak approach to anything in my life from any organisation trying to recover money due to it.

I have not had time to look at the others but I did see that the report of the North-Western Health Board contained the exact same wording and paragraphs. I conclude that the health boards have been co-operating, perhaps through the Department, in preparing their responses, although I know that the reports are in a standard format. I am concerned that there is no chief executive or Accounting Officer, as I would call it, showing any bottle in recovering the money due to his or her health board. When this money comes back, if negotiated through the Department, will it work its way back to the individual health board? I would have been far happier to see a statement about recovery of overpayments that stated the health board was determined to recover all moneys inappropriately paid. I do not see any determination. I am disappointed that the people concerned have come to the Committee of Public Accounts without even a semblance of determination to recover their money. What is written here contains words such as "may", "possible", "consultation" and "general approach". It is the weakest I have ever heard. This seems to run through the reports of the other groups also.

It was suggested that the IMO might mention names. That is not what we are talking about. I will be horrified if there is any attempt to offset one against the other. There are two separate issues. If money has to be recovered, it should be recovered; if, unconnected to this issue, GPs can prove they have been underpaid, that is something else. It should be borne in mind that a progress report will ultimately come back to us. As a matter of principle, under no circumstances should there be any offsetting of future claims from the IMO for any purposes against the money due to health boards.

Does any chief executive officer want to make a statement on the recovery determination?

I will address my questions to Mr. Hurley because I was asked to do so.

Any other chief executive officer can take it up also.

Mr. Hurley

I assure the Chairman and members that each of us is fully determined to recover the money. There is absolutely no doubt about this. We believe, however, that the most effective way of going about this is by taking a common approach across the entire system. It will be far more effective, whether we are dealing with the IMO or individual doctors, as we may have to do because the contract is between the GP and the health board, not the IMO and the health board. We are committed to pursuing this and genuinely believe taking a common, consistent approach will yield better results.

Does any other chief executive officer want to comment on this?

Mr. McLoughlin

My report states what I think is a common view, which is that it is my intention to pursue the recovery of all overpayments. To take up the point made by Deputy McCormack, I have 207 GPs. Therefore, it makes much more sense to reach a deal with the IMO rather than engaging in individual negotiations. The group of GPs with which I am dealing straddles the Southern Health Board, the Mid-Western Health Board, the Midlands Health Board and the Eastern Regional Health Authority and they probably also have patients from other regions. It would be much more efficient to agree an arrangement with the IMO that would lead to the recovery of all debts rather than my staff and I having to negotiate with each GP.

If agreement is not reached with the IMO, what will Mr. McLoughlin do?

Mr. McLoughlin

In that case it is my intention to seek recovery of the funds through each individual GP. That is the common view among chief executive officers.

Can the money be withheld from other moneys owed to GPs for the legitimate work they are doing? If an average of €3,000 was overpaid to GPs, could this amount not be deducted from their next cheques and never mind the IMO? That is what happens with those on social welfare.

Mr. Gaughen

I have every intention of recovering the money, either by collective or individual agreement. I am convinced that we are entitled to retrieve the money but the method by which we do this must be discussed with GPs and their representatives. Also, the comparison has been made with those on social welfare but the Department of Social and Family Affairs has a particular regulation that strengthens its hand. We want to go about this legally.

It seems there is one law for those on social welfare and another for GPs. No one answered the question if a list of GPs who received this money will be published.

We will not even find out how much they earned.

Will that list be published in order that we will know if our own GP is sound?

The Department paid the money and the IMO is threatening to strike on the issue. Will the Department pursue the matter if the board fails to resolve the issue?

Sitting suspended at 3.35 p.m. and resumed at 4.20 p.m.

I apologise for the series of votes. Deputy Higgins, have you any further comments or questions?

When this meeting was arranged it was not foreseen that parliamentary business would be so fractious and requiring such interruption, especially in the afternoon. The Government did not help by refusing to have a pairing arrangement. That would have enabled the meeting to continue.

The meeting has teased out many of the key issues. Following the Comptroller and Auditor General's investigations, and as the chief executives acknowledged, it appears that systems are well on the way to being put in place to avoid a recurrence. I hope lessons have been learned. This scheme covered mainly the elderly, many of whom died. I am sure future possible weaknesses in the system will be foreseen and addressed.

It has become evident that we need a common information technology system in the health service if we are to make progress in identifying value for money. A recurring theme of the contributions was the view that a common technology database system would provide value for money, not only for the medical card system but in the integration of all services in the health board system. That also emerged from our first meeting with the Secretary General. I acknowledge the significant level of work undertaken since that date. The chief executive officers have a shared determination to put their house in order, with the result that the inadequate systems that prevailed hitherto will be a thing of the past. I am confident that a professional, businesslike system will be implemented which will give value.

The removal of dead cards will give further flexibility to the health boards in their task of issuing cards to those who need them and to extend the service. It would be wrong if this meeting conveyed the message that we were seeking a clampdown on the issuing of medical cards. That is far from the case. We are concerned with encouraging efficiencies and fairness. That is the bottom line.

I look forward to issuing an invitation to the health boards to return to the committee to discuss their annual accounts. The Comptroller and Auditor General will have completed the 2001 accounts and I hope the 2002 accounts will also be included. It would give a clear picture of the way forward. The public expects value for money, especially in view of the significant allocation of approximately €9 billion to health funding. The health boards disperse the funds and it is important they are held to account by this committee. We have a responsibility to our constituents to ensure value for money.

A number of things have been learned from this meeting. The main causes of the difficulties appear to lie in the agreement with the IMO that GPs would not have to notify the board of their panel details, the letter of March 1995 easing the requirements and the poor management structure, at least in some of the boards. The dreaded word "fraud" was only mentioned by Mr. Ó Murchú in his submission, where he referred to the prevention of irregularities and fraud. We do not have time to consider a definition of fraud.

The committee must now consider the future integrity of the system and the recovery of the overpayments. On a previous occasion the IMO had threatened the withdrawal of services. If the boards find themselves in severe conflict will it fall to the Department to effect global action?

In my statement yesterday I indicated it is our firm intention that all outstanding moneys will be recouped. The Deputy is referring to a doomsday situation, at which point we would also have to be involved. I hope it will not come to that and that an amicable arrangement can be reached with the general practitioners on a procedure that can be agreed.

I hope that will send a clear message to the general practitioners.

The Secretary General will be before the committee on 1 May. This has been a most important contrition by the health boards. I appreciate it and thank all of the staff involved.

Mr. Purcell

In calculating the overpayments, Mr. Mooney wisely reiterated that the figure of €6 million is only an estimate. Mr. Burke referred to calculating the overpayment in cases where the date of death was unknown. That is difficult to do. According to appendix one, dealing with the Mid-Western Health Board, the calculation includes €10,000 for 847 deceased cases where the date of death is not known, which would suggest, if my arithmetic is as good as it was, that it is approximately just under €12 per person. I do not know what the position is. We would all accept that the figures should be treated with some caution. With regard to the ERHA, Mr. Lyons made it clear that much work remained to be done on several thousand outstanding cases.

In calculating overpayments, I mentioned in my opening statement that there are other smaller elements of funding of GPs that are based to some degree on the numbers on the panels. I am thinking of such matters as contributions to superannuation practice support and, perhaps, medical indemnity insurance. I do not know if they have been taken into account. They would not be of the same magnitude as the capitation fees, but I place on the record that they may have to be taken into account as circumstances dictate.

The witnesses withdrew.

Our next meeting will take place on 2 April and will deal with the Comptroller and Auditor General's special report on the management of the Irish Blood Transfusion Service. That concludes the business of the meeting.

The committee adjourned at 4.35 p.m. until11 a.m. on Wednesday, 2 April 2003.
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