Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 14 Feb 2008

2006 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts.

Vote 25 — Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.
Chapter 6.1 — Contract Termination Costs;
Environment Fund 2006;
Local Government Fund 2006;
VFM Report 56 of the Comptroller and Auditor General:
Improving Performance — Public Service Case Studies:
Chapter 4 — Management of Inland Fisheries
Chapter 15 — Met Éireann.
Chapter 16 — Special Housing Aid for the Elderly
Chapters 18 and 19 — Part C Cross-Cutting Reports.
Ms Geraldine Tallon, (Secretary General, Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government) called and examined.

I draw attention to the fact that absolute privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. The attention of members and witnesses is drawn to the fact that as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 grants certain rights to persons who are identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These include the right to give evidence, the right to produce or send documents to the committee, to appear before the committee either in person or through a representative, to make a written and oral submission, to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents and to cross-examine witnesses. For the most part these rights may be exercised only with the consent of the committee. Persons invited before the committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified in the course of proceedings who are not present may have to be made aware of them and provided with the transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings, if the committee considers this appropriate in the interests of justice.

Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official, either by name or in such a manner as to make him or her identifiable.

Members are also reminded that under Standing Order 158, the committee should refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

I welcome Ms Geraldine Tallon, Secretary General of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and invite her to introduce her officials.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I am accompanied by Mr. Peter McCann, finance officer, Mr. Gerry Galvin, principal adviser on water services, Ms Maria Graham, principal officer in the housing division and Mr. Maurice Coughlan, principal officer in local government and franchise.

I welcome Kathryn Ward from the Private Residential Tenancies Board, PRTB, and invite her to introduce her officials.

Ms Kathryn Ward

I am accompanied by Ms Carmel Diskin, higher executive officer, with the PRTB.

I welcome the official from the Department of Finance.

Mr. Jimmy Doyle

I am a principal officer in the sectoral policy division in the Department dealing with the environment Vote.

I invite Mr. Purcell to introduce Vote 25, chapter 6.1 and the various accounts. Chapter 6.1 reads:

6.1 Contract Termination Costs

Background

The Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government (the Department) is the overall sponsor, manager and provider of funding for the Water Services Investment Programme.

Provision of schemes under the Programme is the responsibility of County and City Councils who are also the contracting authorities. Generally, Councils engage engineering consultants to design, plan, invite tenders for, and supervise construction.

The Limerick Main Drainage Scheme involved the planning and construction of an integrated collection, treatment and disposal system for both waste and storm water for Limerick City and environs at an estimated total cost of €130m.

My examination focussed on how one small part of this overall scheme, which was originally expected to cost less than €10m in 2000, ultimately will cost in the region of €83m as a result of the termination of a contract and the consequences of that action.

The key dates in these events are set out in Table 28 below.

Table 28 Key Dates

Date

Event

April 1997

Limerick City Council (LCC) selected Consultant Engineers to plan, design and supervise the scheme

26 February 1999

First of 20 Contracts in Scheme awarded

25 May 1999

Contract 3.6 awarded to UCL Construction Ltd

23 May 2000

Contract 4.2 awarded to UCL Construction Ltd

6 June 2000

Work commenced on Contract 4.2

March 2001

Contractor notified LCC of difficulties

2 May 2001

Engineer issued Notice to Contractor expressing concern at lack of progress

29 May 2001

LCC issued written warning to UCL

19 September 2001

LCC issued termination notice to UCL

5 November 2001

LCC expelled contractor and took possession of site

28 June 2002

Conciliator appointed

27 January 2003

Conciliator made first recommendation

12 February 2003

Conciliation findings rejected by LCC

10 July 2003

Arbitrator appointed

9 November 2003

Conciliator made final findings

February 2004

New contract awarded to replace 4.2

June 2005

Arbitrator made first award

November 2005

High Court Appeal

September 2006

Final Arbitrator award excluding costs

Planning and Design

Limerick City Council (LCC) appointed, as consultant engineers, a consortium of engineering firms for the design and construction phases of the entire scheme. The appointment was made on the recommendation of the City Engineer, on behalf of the Interview Board set up as part of the competitive procedure to select consultant engineers.

I asked the Accounting Officer of the Department what was the role of the City Engineer and if the choice of a consortium of engineering firms might have contributed to the difficulties subsequently encountered.

In reply she said that the City Engineer, with his staff, (in particular through a full-time Project Manager/Senior Engineer), was responsible for managing the delivery of consultant services and the procurement of the works contracts for the entire Limerick Main Drainage Project. Once a contract was awarded, the consulting engineer is appointed "Engineer" in the contractual sense, for the purposes of administering the Contract, while the City Council remains the "Employer". The City Engineer (and his staff) continued to have a monitoring role throughout the contract period, and gave advice to the City Manager on all major decisions required of the Employer, as well as reporting on the overall level of progress on the delivery of the contract.

It was quite common on larger projects for a consortium of firms to provide engineering services. The three firms in this consortium, two based in Limerick and one in Dublin, were among the leading consulting engineers in the country with significant specialist civil and structural engineering experience on water services and other major projects. Similar consortia of consulting engineering firms have provided, and continue to provide, engineering services on nearly all the major water services projects procured since the mid- 1990s.

Tendered Cost of Overall Works

Tenders were sought for 20 distinct parts of the overall scheme and 20 contracts were placed between 1999 and 2004. The total amount tendered for the 20 contracts was €188m. The final accounts for these contracts have not been agreed for all cases at the date of my Report.

Uniform Construction Limited Contracts

Two of the 20 contracts were awarded to Uniform Construction Ltd (UCL). The Abbey River contract (3.6) was awarded in June 1999 for an amount of €9,048,020, and was substantially completed by 31 March 2001 at a cost of €11,820,468. The North Interceptor Sewer – Contract (4.2) for €9,570,570 gave rise to the difficulties and substantial costs to the State examined in my audit.

North Interceptor Sewer – Nature of Work and Tendered Cost

The work involved the construction of the Northern Interceptor Sewer Upper from Watch House Cross, Ballynanty, going under the river at the Shannon Bridge, and meeting up with the Dock Road Tunnel at Bishop's Quay. The contract requirement was for the installation of approximately 2.6 kms of sewer by open cut and trenchless methods underneath the city of Limerick. Tenders were sought in 1999, and eight tenders were received ranging from €9,570,570 to €21,224,560. The two lowest tenders were €9,570,570 and €10,811,082, and the Minister approved LCC's acceptance of the contract of UCL in December 1999 for the amount of €9,570,570. The Contract Start Date was 6 June 2000, with a completion date of 6 December 2001.

Contract Disputes

In March 2001 UCL wrote to the Limerick Main Drainage Project Office in LCC, informing them that difficulties had been discovered in the path of their tunnelling, and it was likely that the natural ground was much lower than that indicated on the engineering drawings. UCL stated that it was self evident that significant additional costs to the contract would be incurred and progress would be severely delayed, and gave notice that they intended to claim payment of the additional costs involved and an extension of time for completion, commensurate with the delays caused to the completion of the works.

On 23 May 2001 LCC's City Engineer wrote to the Department advising that

64% of the time had elapsed with only 25% of the work completed

Negligible progress had been made in the previous 3 months, and serious problems had arisen including road collapses

The consultant Engineer's view was that conditions currently existing should not prevent the satisfactory construction of the tunnel and that the problems were due to over-mining which suggested inadequate control and monitoring of the operation of the micro tunnelling boring machine

No tunnelling had taken place since 26 February 2001 and UCL were refusing to recommence until further investigations were carried out

UCL claimed unforeseen ground conditions and artificial obstructions existed and would be seeking recovery of costs and all delays would be reflected in their claim

Solutions offered by UCL of ground stabilization and lowering the tunnel would have significant cost implications

LCC considered that UCL did not have the expertise to deal with the problem.

LCC put forward 4 options to deal with the situation

Employ a specialist sub-contractor with UCL's agreement at a cost of €5.71m.

UCL to put in place and maintain a management structure capable of doing the work satisfactorily. However, LCC believed that UCL would remain insistent on further investigations and ground treatments at a cost of €5m.

Employ a specialist sub-contractor without UCL's agreement at a cost of €5.71m.

Terminate the Contract at a cost of €6.9m. LCC added that if the contract was terminated, there was no doubt but that UCL would seek arbitration or some other legal recourse. However, if UCL were unsuccessful, their bond of €2.2m would be forfeited. LCC stated that the appointment of a new contractor would cost an additional €3.8m over present costs, but overall this would be the most attractive financial option.

LCC told the Department that, having discussed the matter with their consultants and solicitors, they were of the view that it was time to consider early termination of the contract.

These matters were discussed at meetings held in the consultant engineer's office, at the Department's offices and at the LCC's legal advisers' office in Dublin on 21 May 2001.

The legal advice was that the Engineer should clarify a previous warning. The Engineer warned UCL, in writing, that it was failing to proceed with due diligence on 29 May 2001.

On 12 June 2001 UCL wrote, denying that they were failing to proceed with the works with due diligence. They accepted that a serious delay had occurred with the tunnelling operation, but asserted that this was because of unforeseen physical conditions encountered. They suggested that they would seek to resolve the matter with the assistance of an independent third party, who would be a professional engineer, rather than embarking on the lengthy and expensive dispute resolution process which would inevitably follow the formal termination of the contract.

The Engineer issued a further written warning on 20 June 2001.

In early July, UCL provided a 39 page statement of the methodology for the next extended stage of tunnelling which was discussed at meetings over the following weeks. Approval was given on 2 August for the next section only. Tunnelling recommenced on 9 August, but had to be aborted almost immediately as the tunnelling machine could not be kept on line or level.

Pre-Termination Consultations with the Department

On 17 September 2001 the Minister was made aware of the situation. The key points made were that

The City Manager had been advised that UCL should be given 7 days notice that they were being expelled from the contract.

The contract was worth about €9.5m of the overall €188m tendered for the scheme.

There had been discussions with the contractor over a number of months.

The procedure being followed was in accordance with the General Conditions of Contract.

It was now a decision for the City Manager. The matter was a contractual/legal one involving LCC, their consultants and UCL.

The Department did not have a role in the termination process, and any approach to the Department would be responded to on that basis.

If UCL were expelled, the bondsman would become responsible for putting another contractor in to complete the job. Any costs arising from consequent delays would also be the responsibility of the bondsman. Delays, should they arise, would not hold up other aspects of the scheme, as this part of the work was not on any critical path.

The file was noted as seen by the Minister.

Department’s Evaluation of the Position

I asked the Accounting Officer if her Department considered the possibility that the UCL position had merit, and what independent consideration had it given to the question as to how LCC should seek to resolve its differences with UCL.

In her reply, the Accounting Officer said the Department's experienced Water Inspectorate reviewed the engineering and contractual advice received by LCC, and all proposals made by LCC on foot of professional advice at all stages leading up to termination, and during the entire conciliation and arbitration processes. The Engineering Inspectors, Senior Advisers and Principal Advisers in the Water Inspectorate involved during the entire course of this dispute, have each many years of experience in water services projects, preparation of contract documents, forms of contracts, construction methods, and conciliation and arbitration procedures, both in the public and private sectors, to an extent that would not be matched in the local authorities. Prior to termination, the advice and recommendations of LCC's engineering advisers and specialist tunnelling and geotechnical advisers were critically examined through extensive review and questioning by the Engineering Inspector, in particular at meetings in May and September 2001.

As I was concerned by the apparent lack of clarity in the Department's role, I asked the Accounting Officer what part her Department had played in the decision to terminate the contract, and had the financial risks of termination been assessed.

In reply, she said that the Department was not a party to the contract, but that the Department's Engineering Inspector attended the meeting of 11 September 2001 between LCC and their consultant engineers, which concluded in the latter's recommendation to LCC to terminate the contract. The Inspector was satisfied that LCC was acting on the basis of expert engineering and legal advice, and that the decision reached was supported by a rigorous assessment of all the circumstances associated with the contract, and he reported accordingly.

A risk assessment of the financial consequences of contract termination carried out by LCC's legal and engineering advisers, was presented at the meeting of 11 September. The risk assessment addressed both the principle of the contractor's claims, and the quantum of the claims. The Department was satisfied that the rationale used was appropriate, and that the risk assessment findings were supported by the necessary analysis of the risks involved.

I also asked the Accounting Officer what was the Department's experience of contract terminations at that time, and was there a prescribed format for the evaluation of the risks involved.

She said that contract termination, by reason of contractor default or non-performance, is a very rare occurrence on water services projects, with no other case occurring since the mid-1970s. Other contract terminations have occurred, but these have all been as a result of the contractor going into liquidation or receivership. She also said that there was no prescribed format for the evaluation of risks in relation to termination of civil works contracts.

LCC Terminates Contract

LCC and its engineering and legal advisers met and corresponded with UCL and its advisers during September 2001, but these exchanges did not resolve matters, and the contract was formally terminated by the end of the month.

In a memo to the Minister, dated 19 October, it was stated that the Inspector had been in close touch with the Limerick Project from its inception, and was satisfied that neither the City Council nor its consultants had acted unreasonably or outside of contractual norms.

The Minister wrote to the contractor on 22 October, stating that, while the Department was the managing authority for the National Water Services Investment Programme, its function in relation to procurement of individual contracts was limited to ensuring that the contract process fully accords with national and EU procurement requirements. The Department was not a party to the contract, and it had no role or powers of intervention in relation to post-contract dispute resolution.

Following "without prejudice" discussions with the contractor in the hope of finding a resolution, LCC entered the site and expelled the contractor on 5 November 2001.

LCC also called in UCL's bond, which amounted to €2,392,649, at this time. When the bond was called in, the bondsman indicated that he was withholding payment pending the outcome of the arbitration. Now that the arbitrator has found that the contractor was wrongfully dismissed, the bondsman has contended that there is no case for paying the bond.

I asked the Accounting Officer whether the Department could have prevented LCC from terminating the contract, and she said that her Department could have advised LCC against terminating the contract, or that LCC were terminating the contract entirely at their own risk, but the Department could not have prevented LCC from legally terminating the contract. The Department, from its own review of all aspects of the history of the contract, did not form a view that would have warranted such advice to be given.

In reply to whether the Department considered making LCC liable for the financial outcomes of termination, the Accounting Officer said that she was at all times satisfied that LCC was acting in accordance with the best engineering and legal advice available to them. On that basis, there would not have been grounds for exposing LCC to the potential financial consequences of the termination.

Conciliation

In November 2001 UCL, through its solicitor, asked for immediate agreement to arbitration, conciliation/mediation, or another alternative dispute resolution procedure. Solicitors for LCC responded in February 2002, broadly welcoming this approach, notwithstanding that the contract did not provide for conciliation as such. In April, the UCL's solicitors put forward the names of 6 experts, any of whom might act as conciliator. LCC accepted the first of these, and on 28 June 2002 an agreement to conciliation between LCC and UCL was signed.

A key requirement of the conciliation agreement was that " the conciliator's recommendation shall state his opinion as to the entitlements of the parties and in this regard shall state his opinion as to what he considers an arbitrator, if appointed, is likely to find (including a finding as to the amount of compensation payable to any party by the other) based on the application of the terms of the contract and applicable principles of law." As is common with its use in the construction sector, the conciliation procedure was non-binding on the parties, and either party could refer the dispute to arbitration when the conciliation was concluded.

Conciliator’s Recommendation Part 1

On 27 January 2003, the conciliator issued his Recommendation Part 1. He stated that, in his opinion, an arbitrator would find that the termination of the contract was wrongful and should be set aside. He was also of the opinion that an arbitrator would find LCC liable to pay damages to UCL. He had not estimated an amount yet, but it would be an amount which would put UCL in the same position as if the contract had not been terminated. UCL would be entitled to payment for all works carried out before termination. During the course of outlining the reasons for his recommendation, he stated that in his opinion an arbitrator would find that

There had not been any improper or incompetent operation of the micro-tunnelling boring machine

Ground stabilisation (or alternative enabling work) was necessary

UCL was not guilty of any failure to progress work with due diligence

Work was proceeding well and expeditiously at the time the contract was terminated.

In a report dated 11 February the city engineer summarised "Post Recommendation Events" as follows

At a meeting on 30 January 2003 UCL noted that its claims amounted to €22.8m, but was prepared to accept an immediate settlement of €12.4m, to be accepted by noon the following day, or the amount would have to be increased to €15.9m.

LCC had not changed its position regarding the termination, but acknowledged that it would be prudent to consider the offer. However, the €12.4m compared with a contract of €9.5m and LCC's valuation of completed works of €3.6m.

Rejection of Conciliator’s Recommendation Part 1

On 12 February 2003 LCC City Manager wrote to the Department notifying them that LCC proposed

Rejecting the conciliator's recommendations Part 1

Advising the conciliator that there was no point in him proceeding with the remaining part of the recommendations

Making a sealed offer following a financial and legal risk assessment in the likely event of arbitration.

On 14 February 2003 LCC issued formal notice of rejection of conciliator's recommendation to the Conciliator and UCL.

I asked the Accounting Officer how her Department had responded to LCC's proposal to reject the conciliation findings, and she said that it had considered the matter fully and raised no objection. She said that the Department was satisfied that due process, as provided for in the contract, should be followed so that, in accordance with the rigours of the arbitration procedure, UCL's claims would be tested in evidence and by cross-examination of witnesses. Conciliation was not provided for in the contract but was agreed to by LCC on the basis that it might lead to a speedier resolution.

On 10 June 2003 the contractor wrote to LCC City Manager summarising events to date and asserting that

LCC had immediately rejected the conciliator's recommendation

The contractor had sought to reach an amicable settlement but LCC had rejected all proposals

The contractor was suffering serious and continuing losses

UCL had no wish to be involved in litigation.

UCL copied this letter to the Secretary General of the Department.

The Secretary General, having consulted the Minister, replied on 20 June, indicating that LCC's decision to reject the conciliator's findings had activated the arbitration process, and noting his understanding that this decision was based on a thorough assessment of the issues, including the financial risks of the various courses open to LCC, taking account of relevant legal and technical advice. He concluded that, in these circumstances, it would not be feasible or appropriate for the Department to intervene in the process.

The Accounting Officer informed me that the Department had at that time received a copy of the Risk Assessment (February 2003) prepared by LCC and their advisers. This assessment had been prepared at the Department's request, and the Department had satisfied itself that the rationale used was appropriate, and the assessments made were based on proper analysis of risks.

New Contract

In June 2003, LCC sought tenders for completion of the outstanding works. Three tenders were received by the closing date, 21 August 2003. One was deemed non–compliant, and the amounts of the others were €20,376,218 and €22,695,981. The contract was awarded for the lower amount in February 2004, and was completed in July 2005, without difficulties at a final cost of c. €27m.

I asked the Accounting Officer how did the new contractor deal with the difficulties alleged by UCL and in particular

Were ground consolidation measures of the kind said to be required by UCL undertaken?

Was the tunnelling level and/or route changed from that originally specified?

In her reply, the Accounting Officer said that the new contractor carried out only a very limited proportion of the ground stabilisation measures that UCL claimed were necessary. It was also the case that the new contractor used the same tunnelling boring machine that UCL had been unable to use in a satisfactory manner. Ground stabilisation was carried out over a total length of 275 metres costing €800,000 plus VAT, as compared to the 945 metres claimed by UCL at an estimated cost of €5,853,267 plus VAT. This was at the contractor's risk under the completion contract, in the same way as LCC maintained it was on the UCL contract. This amounts to just 13.66% of the expenditure on ground stabilisation, which UCL claimed was necessary. She also said that the new contractor did not encounter any major difficulties, additional to those asserted by UCL, and the tunnelled sewer was constructed in accordance with the contract documents, on the same route and at the same level as originally specified in UCL's contract.

Conclusion of Conciliation and Start of Arbitration

Late in June 2003 the City Manager wrote to UCL, referring to the deep-rooted differences between the parties, and the very significant degree of dispute regarding the valuation of the claim. He suggested that arbitration seemed the best mechanism to resolve the differences. The President of the Institute of Engineers in Ireland (IEI) nominated an arbitrator on 10 July 2003, and the arbitrator was informed on 8 August 2003 that the parties had agreed that conciliation would have to be completed before arbitration could commence.

Conciliator’s Final Findings

In the second and final part of his recommendation, dated 9 November 2003, the Conciliator found in favour of UCL, and stated that an arbitrator would be likely to award €25,423,263 (exclusive of VAT) being

€5,548,712 in respect of works completed to the date of termination, in addition to €4,163,547 already paid by LCC

€19,874,551 in respect of damages for wrongful termination of contract.

I asked the Accounting Officer how she satisfied herself that the Department had at all times monitored and given appropriate advice to LCC in respect of the conciliation proceedings, and in particular, was she satisfied with LCC's rejection of the conciliator's findings.

In reply, the Accounting Officer said that the Department had not raised any objection to the dispute being referred to non-binding Conciliation, with a view to an early resolution being achieved. Conciliation was not a provision in the contract at the time of award of the UCL contract, but had been introduced by the Department of Finance on Public Works contracts in January 2001. The Department, on learning of the Conciliator's recommendation, requested LCC to prepare an updated risk assessment. The Risk Assessment in November 2003 verified, to the Department's satisfaction, that there was no reasonable basis for accepting the Conciliator's Recommendation. The wider implications of the Conciliator's interpretation of certain contractual provisions for public works contracting generally were also factors that influenced the Department to raise no objection.

Arbitration Hearings

A preliminary meeting of the parties took place in Dublin on 10 December 2003. Hearings occurred in 3 sessions: 19 July to 10 September 2004, 8 to 19 November and 7 December to 17 December 2004. The parties submitted their closing statements in writing around 20 January 2005, and replies to these statements on 14 February 2005.

Within their rebuttal to UCL's closing statement, LCC proposed a number of issues of law that should be subject to the Case Stated procedure. By letter dated 22 March 2005, LCC's solicitors submitted a list of issues that could be dealt with, without requiring alternative findings dependent upon the outcome of a Case Stated, and by letter dated 24 March 2005 solicitors on behalf of UCL submitted their list of such questions.

In June 2005, after considering the matters raised in this reference, the arbitrator sought guidance from the representatives of the parties, on his obligation to draft any part of the award as a Case Stated. The representatives of the parties responded, and the Arbitrator decided to issue a first interim award, confined to issues of fact previously sent to him.

Arbitrator’s First Interim Award June 2005

The Arbitrator's findings covering liability and measurement issues ran to over 130 pages and found substantially in favour of UCL and found against LCC in the manner of its termination of the contract. He concluded that

On the evidence, UCL had carried out its tunnelling operations in a competent manner

From the evidence of experts, ground conditions necessitating treatment had been encountered and that those conditions could not have been reasonably foreseen by an experienced contractor

At the time of the termination UCL was proceeding with all sections of the works with due diligence and that UCL was not either persistently or fundamentally in breach of contract.

He determined the value of measured works at the time of termination at €6,304,040 (exclusive of VAT). Consideration of damages for wrongful termination was left to the final award.

High Court Appeal

In July 2005, the Department notified the Office of the Attorney General of the Arbitrator's Interim Award, and sought independent legal advice on LCC's consideration of an appeal of the Arbitrator's findings to the High Court. The Department was concerned by the financial implications of the findings, the Arbitrator's interpretation of the contract, not only in this case, but also its general implications, given that this form of contract was widely used throughout the Public Sector, and the extent of the Arbitrator's criticism of LCC and its technical and legal advisers.

In reply the Office of the Attorney General indicated in August 2005 that

It was doubtful if it would be possible to impugn the findings of the Arbitrator

The grounds on which an Arbitrator's findings would be set aside or remitted by the Court would be very limited

The findings of an Arbitrator are not public and therefore did not represent a precedent.

LCC appealed the Arbitrator's award to the High Court on a number of points of law, but the Court ruled on 1 November 2005 that there were insufficient grounds to merit its intervention.

I asked the Accounting Officer why the advice of the Attorney General had not been sought at a much earlier stage.

She told me that the Department did not consider it necessary to involve the Attorney General up to that time, as LCC were being advised by one of the main construction law firms in the State, supplemented by experienced Counsel from the U.K. The Attorney General was subsequently consulted, because the Arbitrator's award had wider implications for other contracts, by virtue of some of his interpretations of the contractual provisions. It was also the case that the Department's inspectorate had a considerable body of knowledge of matters relating to contract conditions and dispute resolution, based on many years experience in capital project appraisal.

I also asked the Accounting Officer what advice her Department gave LCC in the light of its approach to the Office of the Attorney General. She informed me that LCC had been told that the advice of the Attorney General was being sought, and that the advice received had, with the agreement of the Attorney General, been communicated in full to LCC and their legal advisers. She further indicated that her Department sought an updated Risk Assessment (June 2005) from LCC, and agreed with the LCC assessment that such were the consequences of the award, and the unprecedented interpretation of contractual provisions in the award, that an appeal to the High Court was appropriate. A copy of the Arbitrator's Interim Award was also forwarded to the Chair of the Government Construction Contracts Committee.

Final Arbitration Award Excluding Costs

Arbitration hearings resumed on 2 November 2005 to consider the UCL claim for the recovery of damages for wrongful termination, and further hearings took place from 6 March 2006 to 23 March 2006. UCL had initially sought €82m at the commencement of the arbitration, but reduced this to €77m at the resumption of hearings in November 2005.

On 8 September 2006 the arbitrator published his final Award excluding costs.

He ruled that LCC was liable to pay €32,336,702 (inclusive of VAT) to UCL consisting of

Loss of profit on the contract –€0.589m

Consequential trading losses on two other contracts –€17.441m

Loss of profits due to lost revenues between 2003 and 2010 –€10.417m

Interest and financing costs –€3.89m.

New Forms of Contract

The matter was brought to the attention of the Government on 12 September 2006, and subsequently further advice from the Attorney General concluded that

The extensive jurisprudence governing challenges to arbitral awards points very firmly to the view that the courts are reluctant to uphold a challenge save in the most manifest of cases.

There is no prospect of any successful challenge to the preponderance of the award in this case.

The Minister again brought the matter to Government on 23 October 2006, indicating his intention to instruct LCC to explore the possibility of a negotiated all-in settlement, or failing this, to lodge €22m, which the Attorney General advised was the amount of the uncontested liability, with UCL's legal representatives. His Department would provide capital funding to LCC to pay the undisputed element of the award, to the extent that such funding could not otherwise be recouped by LCC from the professional insurances of its engineering consultants and legal advisers. The Minister also noted that the new Forms of Contract for civil buildings works, which were about to be launched by the Minister for Finance, also provided for termination, conciliation and arbitration. These provisions limited recovery, in a case of wrongful termination, to those amounts arising from the contract itself.

The Minister also proposed an early examination, by an independent qualified person, of the management of this case, to identify lessons for civil engineering management, and to recommend on how best to minimise risk of adverse outcomes in future cases.

I asked the Accounting Officer to outline the ways in which the new Forms of Contract differed from those governing the Limerick case with particular reference to

Conciliation

Arbitration

The admissibility of claims for compensation on termination distinguishing between losses arising directly from the contract in question and consequential trading losses.

In reply, the Accounting Officer said that conciliation is now mandatory before a dispute can proceed to arbitration, and the Conciliator has to base his recommendation on the parties' rights and obligations under the contract. Conciliation remains non-binding, in that either party may still reject the Conciliator's recommendation and refer the dispute to arbitration.

Similar arbitration provisions apply, but new Arbitration Rules for the conduct of proceedings were published by the Department of Finance at the end of April 2007. While the rules are essentially identical to the IEI Arbitration Procedure 2000, which applied in the Limerick case, the new rules set more specific and shorter timeframes for the conduct of the proceedings. In relation to compensation, she said that were similar circumstances, as occurred in Limerick, to arise under the new form of contract i.e. a finding by an arbitrator of wrongful termination, the Contractor would only be entitled to recover costs, but not damages.

In her reply, the Accounting Officer also said that should a similar case arise again, there were a number of safeguards to address the situation in the new Forms of Contract. Firstly, risk allocation is more clearly defined, with the contractor carrying ground conditions risk. Secondly, prior to terminating a Contract, the Employer may seek an opinion from a Conciliator as to whether he has sufficient grounds for termination. Lastly, as referred to above, in the event of an arbitrator subsequently finding that the termination was wrongful, the contractor is entitled to his costs, but not damages.

She also indicated that the Department would appoint an independent examiner to review the history of the case, and make any necessary recommendations now that the report of the independent legal and engineering review, commissioned by LCC at the behest of the Department, is available.

Costs to July 2007

On 21 November 2006 LCC paid €22,100,420 which was funded by the Department to UCL. A further payment on 11 January 2007 was sought by LCC from the Department, for the balance of the award of €10,081,675. An amount of €6,081,675 was paid to LCC on that date pending LCC review of any potential for recovery from consulting engineers and legal advisers. These payments brought VAT inclusive expenditure by the Department to date to €63,898,142 being

Payments under the original contract €7,174,961

Payments of LCC/Department expert/legal/witness expenses, etc. €11,161,288

Payments under the arbitration award €28,182,095

Payments under the completion contract €17,379,798

In response to my inquiries about the estimated final cost, the Accounting Officer said that costs had not been awarded by the arbitrator to-date. The final outturn cost of these events (costs incurred by LCC including the cost of the works carried out by UCL but excluding the cost of completion of the works by the new contractor) amount to c. €56m. The cost of the completion contract is a further c. €27m bringing the estimated total cost to c. €83m.

I asked the Accounting Officer what, if any, steps were the Department and/or LCC taking to seek recovery of awards from engineering or legal advisers or their insurers.

In reply she said that the Department has withheld €4m from LCC pending consideration by LCC as to whether they should pursue their engineering and legal advisers and their insurers arising from the outcome of this case. This matter is ongoing at the present time. LCC were advised by the Department to engage independent legal and engineering advisers to review the basis for the decision to terminate, whether the consequences of the decision to terminate were sufficiently considered, the conduct of the arbitration proceedings on LCC's behalf and whether any different steps should be taken when considering termination of future contracts in light of the arbitrator's award.

She also said that LCC engaged a solicitor and a consultant engineer, both widely experienced in construction contract law and disputes, to review the matter. Their independent review, which is now under consideration in relation to its conclusions, found that

The engineer had grounds to find on 18 September 2001 that the contractor was not proceeding with due diligence and that, in the circumstances, the decision to terminate was a reasonable one to make and "even in hindsight may have been correct."

LCC had made the decision to terminate carefully and had considered the serious consequences of termination for the contractor before making the decision and it would have been difficult to foresee that it was exposing itself to liability to the contractor by pursuing its claim on the bond.

To have released the bond would have been a strange thing to do and would have exposed the employer to the risk that its claims would not have been met.

At the time of termination there were, and still are, grounds for the view that an employer is not in breach of contract by terminating on a clause 63 notice that is subsequently reversed in arbitration. However, the Arbitrator did not discuss this argument in his award but obviously rejected it.

The manner in which the Employer's case was advanced was well-founded, thorough, robust, well thought out and more than competent and that the pleadings and submissions made on the Employer's behalf were of a much higher standard than those made for the contractor.

The arbitrator, in considering "due diligence", had given very little consideration to the 11 July programme, had not considered work on the shafts and that the arbitrator's decision to hold the employer responsible for the contractor's loss of bonding facility was questionable as the denial of further bonding facilities was an independent decision of the bondsman.

The arbitrator should have applied (but did not) the rationale based on Matheson v. Canada case where the Courts (both at first instance and on appeal) rejected as too remote a contractor's claim for loss of profits on future contracts as a result of an unjustified termination and bond claim.

LCC were fully justified in referring the arbitrator's decision to the High Court. However, the Court was confined under the Arbitration Act to reviewing how the arbitrator conducted the arbitration and that there was no manifest error in the award itself but the Court was not entitled to open up or review the case itself due to limitations imposed by the Arbitration Act.

Department’s Policy on Dispute Resolution

Given the difficulties that arose in this case I asked the Accounting Officer to outline the Department's experience of, and policy in respect of, significant disputes (exceeding €5m) since 2000.

The Accounting Officer said that two cases relating to Cork Main Drainage had gone to Arbitration. The first involving three contracts, all with one contractor, was settled, following a risk assessment, for a total of €11.24m including VAT in respect of claims in dispute totalling €52.8m including VAT. The second concerned the Waste Water Treatment Plant Design Build Operate contract, where the contractor had submitted a claim for €24.83m. The arbitrator awarded the contractor nothing and awarded Cork City Council all costs in this case.

At present two other cases are at arbitration. The first concerns the Dublin Bay Submarine Pipeline where the contractor is seeking €40m in claims while the second relates to a social housing contract in Naas where the contractor is seeking in excess of €5m in claims.

As regards monitoring of such cases the Department had, since September 2002, required local authorities to prepare risk assessments at the outset and to update these risk assessments as proceedings progressed and any new factor or outcome had to be taken into consideration.

I also asked the Accounting Officer how the Department monitored the settlement of disputes, which did not proceed to formal conciliation or arbitration to ensure such settlements were cost effective and if guidelines had been issued on dispute resolution.

The Accounting Officer said that where settlements are within the terms of the contract (i.e. where claims relate to quantum only) and the project remains within the approved budget, the cost of any such settlement will be included in the final account report submitted to the Department for approval. At this stage the Department will decide whether the settlement is eligible for recoupment to the local authority or whether the local authority should bear the cost. The cost of such settlements cannot be readily extracted from the final accounts.

The Department had not issued guidelines with regard to resolution of disputes as the circumstances of disputes are distinctively different, and it not possible to provide generic guidelines to cover every situation.

Since September 2002 the Department limited the Exchequer's financial exposure by requiring the local authority to first notify the Department of the existence of a dispute and to prepare a risk assessment. If a potential escalation of legal and other costs incurring at conciliation and arbitration is identified, the local authority is requested to consider seeking a commercial settlement within the scope of the risk assessment so as to minimise the cost to the Exchequer. In addition, where a dispute proceeds to arbitration, a "sealed offer" is recommended to mitigate exposure to the costs the contractor incurs.

In regard to its oversight role as the overall sponsor, manager and provider of funding for the Water Services Programme, the Accounting Officer stated that the Department oversees projects throughout their lifecycles. In this respect it monitors progress and costs relative to approved project budgets and maintains close liaison with local authorities where any project is not progressing satisfactorily or where a problem has arisen such as a contractual dispute. The Department of Finance had in recent months published the new Forms of Contract for Public Works which will provide further general safeguards for the Exchequer and the Department.

Current Developments

The Department does not believe that there were failures by management in either LCC or the Department in this case or that the arbitrator's award could have reasonably been anticipated having regard to the robustness of the Employer's case. The independent review carried out by LCC at the Department's request has confirmed that it would have been difficult to foresee this outcome. The planned independent examination of this case will further consider and report on the lessons to be learned from the case. All necessary lessons from this case are being, and will be, taken into account by the Department in relation to its management procedures, guidelines and input into contract terms and dispute procedures.

The Department's position is to ensure that capital programmes are implemented in accordance with the Government's National Development Plans in a cost effective manner and to protect the Exchequer from any unnecessary financial risk. The new Capital Management Works Framework being developed and introduced by the Department of Finance contains an integrated set of contractual provisions, guidance material and technical procedures covering the public works project lifecycle from inception to final project delivery and review. The structure of this strategic framework is closely aligned with the Capital Appraisal Guidelines issued by Department of Finance. The framework is intended to encourage more cost-effective procurement and delivery of public works projects by sponsoring authorities and sanctioning authorities through the introduction of a more systematic approach to planning, capital budgeting, design cost control, construction contract management, construction cost control and dispute resolution. It is expected that the completed framework, which is in the course of development by the Government Construction Contracts Committee, will be published before the end of 2007.

Mr. John Purcell

As the Chairman stated, the agenda falls into three parts. These are chapter 6.1, the value for money report 56 in so far as it relates to activities carried out under the aegis of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the Vote itself with the two associated funds, the local government fund and the environment fund. I will deal with them in this order.

Chapter 6.1 deals with the financial consequences for the Exchequer arising from the termination of a contract which formed part of the Limerick main drainage scheme. The contract in question was for the construction of the north interceptor sewer and was priced at €9.57 million. In accordance with the general arrangements for a public water and sewerage scheme, Limerick City Council, as the local authority, had functional responsibility for delivering the scheme. The necessary funding is provided from the Vote for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

The chapter contains an amount of detail chronicling the sequence of events from the time the contract was awarded in May 2000 to the arbitrator's final determination in September 2006. The table on page 78 which outlines the timing of key events might help in following developments.

In short, the city council terminated the original contract on the grounds that the contractor was not proceeding with due diligence. The contractor contended this determination was wrongful and a breach of contract. By agreement, the dispute was referred to an independent conciliator who found emphatically for the contractor. The city council rejected the conciliator's findings and the matter was referred to an independent arbitrator for adjudication. The arbitrator's findings were very much in line with those of the conciliator. Again, the city council was unhappy with the findings and appealed the award to the High Court on a number of points of law. The judge ruled that none of the issues raised was sufficient to warrant the exercise by the court of its jurisdiction to interfere with the arbitrator's award.

All along, the council acted with the support of the Department, which ultimately must foot the considerable bill. The damages awarded were €32 million. Arbitration expenses amounted to approximately €12 million. Payments under the original contract were €7 million and the cost of the replacement contract was €27 million. To this must be added the contractor's legal costs which are with the Taxing Master and are expected to be approximately €5 million. This gives us a total of approximately €83 million.

Bearing in mind that on three separate occasions independent bodies found against the council, I was concerned that this affair might not have been managed from start to finish in a way which minimised the risk of a potential material loss to public funds. I was also concerned that the case might have ramifications for other public capital contracts. The accounting officer will amplify the reasons for adopting the approach outlined in the chapter. Suffice it to say that all of the council's actions were supported by technical and legal advice and that the risk was assessed at key stages of the process. In addition, an independent review commissioned by the city council and another commissioned by the Department largely vindicate the State agencies' actions.

All of this suggests the State was unlucky on three occasions with a water-tight case. The question is whether this is plausible. An alternative view is that the State agencies and their advisers should have seen the writing on the wall when their arguments were being demolished by independent arbiters and this should have led to greater efforts to settle the dispute earlier and at an acceptable cost. One must then ask why this did not happen.

I will now raise a rhetorical question. Could it have been that the council, its agents and advisers, and the Department, were so convinced of the righteousness of their cause and the strength of their case that taking a dispassionate view of the situation became virtually impossible? The simple answer is that I do not know. What I can state is that I do not recall seeing anything in the State's papers which suggests the case put forward by the contractor might contain any merit whatsoever.

As regards the wider context, the new forms of contracts for civil buildings works incorporate a number of safeguards which should prevent a repeat of the type of situation which developed in this case, including more clearly defined risk allocation, recourse to conciliation prior to any decision to terminate a contract and limitation on the scope for compensation.

I will now discuss value for money report 56. We followed up on value for money reports published seven to ten years ago on three activities carried out under the aegis of the Department. Met Éireann has been part of the Department since 2002. The original report examined the timeliness and accuracy of weather forecasts and the arrangements for managing the performance of the service. The report identified a number of areas with scope for improvement. In the interim period, reasonable progress has been made.

The next area considered was special housing aid for the elderly. As we heard last week, a new scheme will be introduced in April and will provide for a standardised approach across all local authority areas. This should help to remove the inequities and inconsistencies which sometimes crept into the old scheme. Local authorities have been requested to prioritise on medical need and urgency considerations and to ensure more effective targeting of potential applicants. It is intended that an independent evaluation of the new scheme will take place within 12 months.

The final area examined was inland fisheries. The Department's accountability in this case is related to its responsibility for co-ordination of the implementation of the water framework directive. The EPA and local authorities, which are subject to the Department's oversight, have functions with regard to the water quality in our rivers and lakes. I understand we have had a slight improvement in water quality in recent years. I am sure the accounting officer will have up-to-date data on this matter.

The original report found significant duplication between the activities of the regional fisheries boards and local authorities in certain areas. The introduction of service level agreements should help to overcome this overlap. The broader question on revising the arrangements for the management of inland fisheries, which is under consideration, is not one for this accounting officer.

I will now discuss Vote 25 and the two funds. Expenditure on the Vote for the year amounted to approximately €2.75 billion. The main components of this expenditure were €1.3 billion for local authority and social housing programmes, €465 million for the water and sewerage services programme and €532 million for the local government fund.

This fund, which has been in operation since 1999, houses the proceeds of motor taxation, as well as the Exchequer contribution from the Vote and is used to make general purpose payments to local authorities and to meet most of the expenditure on non-national roads. There was a surplus of €58 million in the fund at the end of 2006.

The environment fund accounts for 2006 are also before the committee today. This fund was established with effect from July 2001 and comprises the proceeds of the plastic bag levy collected by the Revenue Commissioners and the environmental levy collected by local authorities on the landfilling of waste. The resources of the fund are mainly used to finance waste management initiatives, environmental enforcement measures and research in the environmental area. There was a surplus of €57 million in this fund at the end of 2006. Both funds received clear audit reports for 2006.

Thank you, Mr. Purcell. I now invite Ms Tallon to make her opening statement.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Thank you, Chairman, and I welcome the opportunity to appear before the committee for the first time as accounting officer for the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I have circulated an overview statement of the Department's activities during 2006. This contains a brief commentary on the main activities on the Department's agenda. I have also circulated a separate statement setting out my response to the chapter in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the termination of the civil works contract in Limerick.

The continuing growth in our population and economy during 2006 provided the context for most of the Department's activities in that year and as the committee members will know, we cover quite a broad canvas. The Department managed the largest capital allocation of any Department in 2006. We continued to implement major housing and water programmes under the National Development Plan 2000-2006 and we ensured a seamless continuity into the new national development plan period 2007 to 2113 for these and other measures.

In terms of delivery, our various Department programmes performed very strongly in 2006. Within the total record output of 93,000 housing completions in 2006, output that was supported by local authority planning and infrastructure programmes, a total of 5,000 social housing units, 1,200 voluntary housing units and more than 3,000 affordable houses were provided. Improvements in water supply and waste water infrastructure resulted in a marked increase in compliance with EU environmental quality standards. In particular, it is noteworthy that compliance with the Urban Waste Water Treatment Directive increased to 90% by the end of 2006 compared with 20% in the year 2000. Investment in the rural water programme is focussed on improving water quality to the rural consumer. By end 2007 improvement works had been completed on 72% of private group water schemes, with remaining schemes in progress or due to come on stream in 2008.

In the area of policy development, important strategies and policy papers published by the Department in 2006 included a national strategy on biodegradable waste, consultation papers on climate change policy issues and waste management regulation and a revised framework for emergency planning response by local authorities. Government approval had been obtained by the end of 2006 for a major housing policy statement, published in February 2007, entitled Building Homes, Sustaining Communities. The Department also contributed significantly to the preparation of the new national development plan and its alignment with the national spatial strategy.

From a customer service point of view, uptake of on-line motor tax increased in 2006 to 34% of eligible customers nationally, including 50% in the Dublin area. In 2007, the usage increased to 41% nationally and 57% in Dublin. Motor tax on-line has the second highest usage of e-Government services after Revenue's ROS facility.

In my position as the new Secretary General in the Department I am keenly aware that the Department is facing challenging issues in 2008 and into the future. We have a strong mandate to pursue a range of high-level objectives and are working with our partner bodies to achieve positive outcomes.

Our objectives include ensuring good quality housing in sustainable communities, addressing climate change, protecting and improving water resources and the quality of drinking water, achieving a high-quality environment with effective environmental protection, achieving effective conservation of our natural heritage and biodiversity and achieving effective conservation of our built heritage. In pursuing these, the Department has at its disposal in 2008 more than €3 billion in capital and current funding to meet our programme requirements. In the longer term, we have the backing of the new national development plan up to 2013 and we believe the Department is well positioned to deliver the planned outputs from our programmes. We are also now moving into a more active phase of decentralisation and will move more than 200 staff into our new headquarters building in Wexford by this time next year.

The Comptroller and Auditor General in his introduction has referred to his examination of the circumstances surrounding the termination of one of the civil works contracts for the Limerick main drainage scheme. This scheme was funded under the Department's water services investment programme and the Department has recouped the costs incurred by Limerick City Council as a consequence of arbitration, following dismissal of a contractor in 2001 and the replacement contract to complete the disputed works. During 2006, €22.1 million was spent by the Department in relation to the arbitrator's award.

Limerick main drainage was a complex scheme, delivered through 20 separate contracts and it replaced some 50 sewer outfalls to the Abbey river and the Shannon estuary with a large scale collection, treatment and disposal system for waste and storm water in the city.

The dispute with the original contractor on contract 4.2 arose from slow progress, which the contractor claimed was due to ground conditions. Limerick City Council had identified more than 120 instances where it claimed the contractor had been in breach of obligations under the contract. Following a series of warnings, including two formal notices which did not bring the work back on track, the contractor was dismissed on the advice of the city's consulting engineers who had engaged a leading legal firm in construction and contract law.

Following my appointment as Secretary General, I reviewed the Department's papers on this element of the Limerick main drainage scheme and my responses to the Comptroller and Auditor General's investigation are reflected in the chapter before the committee. As the committee may wish to examine the circumstances of this case and the procedures followed from the dismissal in 2001 to the award of damages in 2006, I will, with the Chairman's permission, limit my comments at this point.

At the instance of the contractor, Limerick City Council agreed to the case being referred for non-binding conciliation rather than going directly to arbitration, in accordance with the contract terms. In 2003, a conciliator found that the termination was wrongful, principally on the grounds that it could not be held that the contractor was failing to proceed with due diligence at the time of the termination and that an arbitrator would be likely to award the contractor compensation of €25.4 million.

Limerick City Council, supported by technical and legal advice, rejected the conciliator's recommendations for a variety of reasons including the large sum relative to the size of the contract, which was for €9.5 million, and what it regarded as the conciliator's narrow interpretation of due diligence.

Two years later, in June 2005, an arbitrator ruled in principle in favour of the contractor. Limerick City Council referred the arbitrator's finding to the High Court, which found in November 2005 that since there was an arguable case on both sides, any error could not be said to be so obvious or fundamental as to require its intervention. In September 2006, the arbitrator awarded damages of €32.1 million to the contractor on foot of a claim of €82 million. He found that losses the contractor claimed to have incurred on two separate major road projects were predominantly as a result of the termination. This accounted for €17.4 million of the award, along with €10.2 million for loss of future profits and €4.4 million for losses on the Limerick main drainage contract and interest and financing costs.

At four key stages in the case, risk assessments were undertaken by Limerick City Council with the support of professional engineering, legal and specialist financial input to analyse and assess the legal and contractual basis for the contractor's claim and the contractor's chances of success should the dispute proceed to arbitration. The council and the Department accepted on the basis of professional advice and the risk assessments that the contractor's claim was not well founded under the terms of the contract. After the arbitration process had been completed, Limerick City Council appointed independent legal and technical experts to review the case. The review found that the decision to terminate the contract was carefully considered and reasonable in the circumstances, and that the manner in which Limerick City Council's case was advanced was well founded, thorough, robust, well thought-out and more than competent. Despite the adherence of the council and the Department to all of the procedures and processes for dealing with this dispute, I am extremely disappointed that the outcome has resulted in the Exchequer having to meet a very considerable cost that was clearly not envisaged. The Department is always conscious of its role in exercising due care that Exchequer funding is used efficiently and effectively.

Arising from our experience, significant changes are in place. New conditions of contract have been introduced by the Minister for Finance that specifically respond to the outcome in this case. One of the new provisions sets out that a contract termination subsequently found by an arbitrator to have been wrongful no longer entitles a contractor to consequential damages under the contract. Consequential damages represented over half of the €32.1 million award in this case. The Department has issued instructions to local authorities to carry out formal risk assessments in advance of making any decision on a conciliation recommendation relating to a dispute and before referring a case to arbitration. In addition, the Department now recommends the use of restricted tendering to local authorities for contracts requiring specialist expertise, including tunnelling.

Last autumn we commissioned an independent examination solely focused on the Department's role in the case. This was completed in late January by a former Secretary General of the Department of Finance and a copy of the report has been made available to the Comptroller and Auditor General. The report acknowledges the steps already taken internally and through the new form of contract. It endorses the adequacy of the Department's systems and expertise to exercise oversight of contracts and protect public finances, notes that the decision to go to arbitration was made carefully after the risks were assessed, and finds on the basis of the available evidence and the contract management structures in place at the time that it was not evident other options should reasonably have been pursued. The report contains a number of recommendations, principal among which is that the risk assessment methodology should be further developed to build on what is already in place and to assist local authorities in future disputes. I intend that the recommendations will be implemented in full this year.

I understand that at the recent Revenue examination by the committee, certain issues were raised in regard to access by Revenue to data held by the Private Residential Tenancies Board. Along with the representatives from the board I will be happy to deal with these matters.

May we publish the report?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Yes.

I congratulate the Secretary General on her appointment and wish her well. I am sure she understands why my initial comments will focus on the major issues set out in her report, namely, the Limerick contract. When I see that a €9 million contract ends up costing the taxpayer over €83 million, at the very least I must ask questions about how this occurred. At first sight, this appears to be a cock-up of monumental proportions with enormous costs to the taxpayer. It makes small beer of the losses on electronic voting machines.

I want to put a number of questions to the Secretary General based on the incisive reports supplied by the Comptroller and Auditor General. Why was there no constructive engagement with the contractor given that warning signals were apparent as early as March 2001, when the contractor pointed out that difficulties had been discovered in the path of the tunnelling operation which would lead to additional costs and delays? Why was the contract terminated when the advice was that any such termination would lead to the contractor seeking arbitration or recourse to the courts?

At local level or in the Department, why was full consideration never given to the possibility that the position adopted by the contractor had merit? As a consequence, the approach adopted by the contractor seems to have been rejected determinedly at all times, resulting in this dreadful outcome for taxpayers.

Why were the risk assessments, of which at least four were carried out, so inaccurate in comparison with the outcomes achieved and decisions taken by the various independent persons and bodies who examined the matter? Why were the findings and recommendation of the independent conciliator completely rejected? I understand the conciliator was a recognised international authority from the UK on contracts of this kind.

As a lawyer who was often involved in court proceedings, many of which were settled, I do not understand why the offer by the contractor as far back as January 2003 to settle for €12.5 million was rejected out of hand. The ultimate award given to the contractor was much more than twice that amount. Why were the final findings of the conciliator rejected given that his figure came to €25 million, which again was a smaller figure than the amount ultimately awarded?

We move on to the next independent body, the arbitrator. Why were the arbitrator's findings on an award on liability and measurement issues rejected? Although the arbitrator was of major standing, his findings were rejected by the city council and the Department. The Department was involved at all stages of arbitration, monitoring and supervising it and involved in decisions that were taken. After the completion of the arbitrator's award, why was the Attorney General's advice on applying to the court rejected? The Attorney General advised it was doubtful it would be possible to impugn the findings of the arbitrator. Despite this advice of the chief law officer of the State, the decision was made to press on regardless. Why was there nobody to call a stop at any stage to this inexorable journey of a train steaming on towards financial disaster for the taxpayer?

What expertise was available to the Department or within the Department? A local council would have limited expertise available in its own resources. People such as engineers involved in the council are general practitioners and they get in some outside advice. However, within the Department, there must be great expertise available because of the enormous sums of money the Department must sanction or approve every year. This raises another issue. In my days when dealing with major drainage issues, I came across the Office of Public Works, OPW. I often complained about the delays in getting the OPW involved in contracts. I always found it a great resource of expertise and whatever the OPW did, it did well. Was any consideration given to availing of the OPW project management expertise when the issue of the Limerick contract arose for consideration?

The report commissioned by the Secretary General and the Minister became available only a few weeks ago. I assume that report will be available to us. It is a factor to be considered. I will return to that in a moment. In the earlier, excellent report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, is the figure of €83 million the correct and final cost or could it be more after the legal costs are decided by the Taxing Master? There was an issue of recovery proposals against advisers and insurance companies. Has that been pursued and, if not, why not? What is the outcome of it? I will reserve my further comments pending those issues being addressed.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

A large number of questions were raised and I will do my best to respond to them. If I forget any, would the Deputy please remind me? I would like to briefly return to the context of this main drainage scheme. It was a very large scale collection, treatment and disposal scheme for waste and storm water in Limerick. It was complex because it involved more than 20 contacts over several years and ranging in price individually from approximately €130,000 to well over €20 million.

The scheme is important because it was a significant contributor to our ability to ramp up our compliance with the urban waste water treatment directive. It was complex because of the range of contracts involved — pipelines, tunnelling and the provision of treatment, sludge disposal, etc. Pipelines and tunnelling contracts in cities under streets are complex and difficult to do. They move in and out, above and below, existing services in the city, not all of which are well mapped and identified. This contract involved tunnelling under the river and in a city centre location where there was settlement over many centuries. It was a complex environment in which to work.

As the report indicates, the contract was awarded to the contractor in May 2000. It was an 18-month contract and the termination notice was issued in September 2001. There was significant and repeated engagement with the contractor in the period between the award of contract and the contract termination. Several warnings were issued, including two formal notices, over the period before the contract was terminated. Nothing should have come as a surprise to the contractor.

Ms Tallon seems to be making a case for the contractor, that it was an extremely difficult job.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I am not making a case for the contractor. I am identifying the environment within which this contract was undertaken as one of 20 contracts, an interceptor sewer and pipe work in the city centre in a difficult context. The context was set out clearly and explicitly in the contract documents. The same contract documents and specification were used by the replacement contractor who completed the job without the level of difficulty identified by the contractor who was dismissed.

That was done at twice the contract cost.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

That contract was tendered for some years after the original one.

I want to answer Deputy Jim O'Keeffe's question on why the tender was terminated. When it was terminated, 80% of the contract time had elapsed but 34% of the work had been done. Those are two serious figures. During the period in which work had been undertaken during the life of the contract, there was considerable disruption and there had been serious complaints from residents about disruption and noise. This was a difficult contract in a city centre location causing many problems and more public complaints than all the other contracts on Limerick main drainage put together. The key issue for the city and the Department was the extremely slow progress, the series of allegations on ground conditions and the series of claims by the contractor which did not stand up. As I said, at the termination stage much the greater part of the contract period had elapsed and one third of the work had been carried out.

I will not interrupt Ms Tallon too often but it might help us all at this stage if she could tell us if there was total agreement between the departmental engineers and the engineers dealing with the project on behalf of Limerick City Council on the termination of the contract. Is correspondence available within the Department to show the opinions of its own engineers on the issue before action was taken?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

There is a very detailed paper trail available in my own Department on this matter. Ultimately, the Department was in agreement with the engineers in Limerick City Council and the consultants. I should make it very clear the Department maintains an independent and rigorous view on its supervisory and oversight roles in contract management. If I state we agreed, I do not want to give the impression this was easily or conveniently done. It was done on the basis of rigorous assessment at every stage of the evolution of this particular saga.

Contracts of this kind are managed at local level by the appointment of a project engineer assigned to the scheme from the experienced staff of a local authority. In very many instances we also fund a project office associated with specific schemes to ensure a range of expertise locally is brought to bear.

The role of the project office and the project manager is to link very closely with and supervise expert consultants in the implementation of particular schemes. The project manager would meet the consultants and contractor very regularly, such as on a monthly basis.

In addition to that, in a scheme like Limerick main drainage, we would have a steering group representative of all the parties, including the project engineer, the external consultants, Limerick City Council and the Department. The Department's engineering inspector responsible for that scheme attended all those steering group meetings and maintained a close and detailed oversight at all stages in the evolution of the work.

I would be very satisfied the Department agreed with the course of action at all stages but agreed on the basis of a capacity to engage independently and rigorously in the assessment of events as they were unfolding.

Deputy Jim O'Keeffe raised a question about why alarm bells did not ring sooner and why the conciliator's findings were rejected. Limerick City Council rejected the conciliator's recommendations because the sum was large relative to the size of the contract. It was felt the conciliator narrowly interpreted due diligence in terms of the contractor's ability to be working on the site at the time at which the termination had taken place rather than looking at the record which went behind that. As I stated, 80% of time elapsed and 34% of work was achieved.

The conciliator did not consider the issue of persistent breach of the contractor's obligations under the contract. Over 120 separate alleged breaches had been identified by Limerick City Council. Many of those were not contested by the contractor at any stage.

From the perspective of both the council and ourselves, it was important that arbitration was the only dispute resolution mechanism in the contract. If we had accepted the conciliation recommendation, or an informal offer made by the contractor after the conciliation — also mentioned by the Deputy — it would again have been a much larger sum than the contract figure itself. We could have been very open to question and criticism because those particular findings had no status in law. There was formal machinery available within the contract process which we would then perhaps stand accused of not having properly and fully pursued to the end.

Arbitration was the dispute mechanism.

It cost a lot of money.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

That is something--

Millions and millions.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

With respect, we know that now when we have seen the saga evolve. At the time it would not have been possible to make that judgment. In my opening statement, I referred to the finding from the independent assessment carried out by the former Secretary General in the Department of Finance to the effect that, on the basis of the available evidence and the contract management structures in place at the time, it is not evident other options should have been reasonably pursued. Working in real time, we did not feel it possible or appropriate to make that kind of judgment.

Limerick City Council, with the agreement of the Department, rejected the conciliator's findings and the offer made informally, which we did not view as a very real offer. We did not reject advice from the Attorney General. We sought advice and pursued that which we were given.

We have adequate appropriate expertise available within the Department in these types of cases. I did not and do not feel it at all necessary to avail of OPW project management expertise in these instances.

The water inspectorate is headed up by a principal adviser, who accompanies me today. He has a total of 27 years experience in the water services sector, including eight years experience within the private sector in a consulting engineering firm. He is also a member of the Government construction contracts committee, where the experience we have had with Limerick fed into the work on the new conditions of contract.

The principal adviser has a staff of ten professional engineers supporting him in the supervision and oversight of the major capital programme we have. Many of these have both public and private sector experience, including in areas of dispute resolution.

I was asked about the availability of the report prepared for the Department. It was presented to the Minister, Deputy Gormley, at the very end of January and a copy was immediately made available to the Comptroller and Auditor General. We asked Limerick City Council for agreement to publish some of the supporting documentation associated with it and it is now available. There is no issue about making copies of the report available, so we will do so.

At the beginning I spoke--

I inform the Deputy that he has had over 20 minutes at this stage.

When I referred to constructive engagement at an early stage, when difficulties arose, I was not talking about warning notices being served on the contractor. The contractor raised what subsequently proved to be a reasonable point, namely, that unexpected difficulties and delays were emerging in the contract, and was open to discussion. The discussion that arose amounted to warning shots from the council and there was no engagement regarding the difficulties that had arisen.

The Secretary General seems to reject the conciliation approach entirely so why was it agreed to? Was conciliation agreed without the approval of the Department? The Comptroller and Auditor General's report states that the contractor sought either arbitration, conciliation, mediation or an alternative form of dispute resolution. The contractor did not threaten to go straight to court but sought a reasonable resolution. Conciliation was accepted so why were the conciliator's two reports rejected out of hand? It has been suggested that the sum mentioned by the conciliator was large relative to the size of the contract but it was small compared to the ultimate cost of €83 million to the taxpayer.

In August 2005 the Attorney General advised that it was doubtful that it would be possible to impugn the findings of the arbitrator and it is now suggested this was accepted. He also said the grounds on which an arbitrator's findings would be set aside or remitted by the court would be limited. In other words, the Attorney General gave a clear signal that it would be unwise to go to the High Court. Regardless, the case went before the High Court and it was duly lost.

These matters have not been fully clarified and I do not recall any response to issues arising from claims that were supposed to be made against independent advisers and insurers. I invite the Secretary General to respond to my comments on this contract. When we have the documentation, the further report commissioned by the Minister and his Department and the advice of the Comptroller and Auditor General arising from his analysis of that report there will be a case for returning to this matter. The amount of money is far too great for us to accept that during this entire process nobody shouted stop. Nobody appears to be responsible for a €9 million contract that cost the taxpayer €83 million. I cannot accept this and believe we must return to this matter.

When the Secretary General responds she might clarify that the contract was for €9.6 million and that when it was terminated with Uniform Construction Limited, UCL, €3.6 million worth of work had been done by the company. This means €6 million worth of work on the project was outstanding. The Department then engaged another contractor that charged €27 million for this outstanding work, which was originally evaluated at being worth €6 million. How did this happen? The accounting officer asked the Department how the new contractor dealt with the ground difficulties alleged to exist by UCL. I am puzzled how work valued at €6 million was priced at €27 million by a new contractor.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I shall deal with the Chairman's questions immediately and I shall return to Deputy O'Keeffe's questions as quickly as possible. The figures quoted are correct. The original tender came to €9.57 million and the work done came to €3.6 million with €6 million outstanding.

The replacement contract was drawn up several years after the original contract in February 2004.

Was it tendered for in June 2003?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It was tendered for in June 2003 and was in place by February 2004. There was inflation in the construction sector of around 45% between the tendering for the original contract and the replacement contract and this affected the pricing involved.

That would take the figure for the remaining work up to around €8.5 million.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

That is quick arithmetic. The second contract was tendered for on a restricted basis, rather than an open basis. Another factor was that risk was identified at this point, given the history of the contract, so the replacement contractor would have allowed for the level of risk he perceived to exist.

Does this mean there was an acceptance at this stage that the difficulties highlighted by the original contractor existed?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

No. I will come back to the issue the Deputy has raised.

The replacement contractor tendered for the contract on a restricted basis with the knowledge of the history of the matter and would have allowed for risk in a manner the original contract did not. The original contract for this element did not provide for any level of ground stabilisation, so the contractor carried the entire risk associated with that.

That would have been based on site surveys shown to the original contractor.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It was based on the contract documents, the tender specification and all of the documentation available. The new contractor based his tender on exactly the same documentation but took a different view regarding the level of risk involved, as he was entitled to.

Surely at that stage alarm bells should have rung, suggesting the original contractor was correct after all and that major difficulties existed.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The real point is that the replacement contractor adopted a different approach to the risk involved and made provision for some ground stabilisation in the tender price. The figures relating to this aspect of the work in both contracts show that the replacement contractor was paid about €800,000, plus VAT, for ground stabilisation works, in accordance with the terms of the contract. This compares to a figure of €5.8 million that was sought by the dismissed contractor specifically for ground stabilisation. The replacement contractor found it possible to complete the work for the level of expenditure on ground stabilisation that was mentioned; this can be seen relative to the claims made by the original contractor in this regard.

I do not follow that at all.

Where was all the other money that he sought going? What of the other €20 million? Is it not the case that the other person seeking to become the replacement contractor sought a similar level of payment to the contractor chosen? Was that the same money or, in fact, slightly higher? Was there not a second tender?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The second tender was for approximately €20 million. I am sorry; I misunderstood the Deputy's question.

I understand there were two tenders at the time. The original contract was dismissed and a new contract was given out. I understand both were for around the same amount of money. The general view was that clearly there were difficulties and costs associated with the project, which was the very point made by the original contractor.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The tender range for the original contractors, however, went from €9.5 million — from the contractor that was originally awarded the contract — to more than €20 million. Thus, the first time around there was a wide range of contract prices. Some of the original contract prices tendered were as high, if not higher, than the price tendered by the replacement contractor four years later.

The basic point appears to be that every independent body that examined this, be it the conciliator, the arbitrator or the High Court, found that the case made by the original contractor stood up.

I still have no idea how the sum increased from €6 million to €27 million. I will ask Mr. Purcell to comment, and then we will move on to Deputy Niall Collins.

Mr. John Purcell

Perhaps I will have some comments at the end, but at this stage it may be helpful to make one point about ground stabilisation. The Accounting Officer correctly stated that the extent of ground stabilisation required by the replacement contractor was not the same as that suggested by the original contractor. However, it is important to note that the council's case was partly based on the fact that no ground stabilisation was required and that mismanagement of the tunnelling machine was the cause of the problems such as subsidence. Ground stabilisation over a length of 275 metres was required by the replacement contractor.

Thank you.

I have two questions about the Limerick main drainage scheme. Has anybody been held accountable for this monumental cock-up? The figures as outlined are exorbitant. Who were the legal advisers who advised Limerick City Council and the Department all the way through this process? Are they still engaged by either the Department or Limerick City Council for any ongoing or pending contracts? Has anybody been sacked, demoted, moved sideways or retired over this?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Deputy O'Keeffe also raised a similar question, which I was coming to. The findings of the independent analysis of Limerick's handling of the case included the following: that the engineer had grounds to claim in September 2001 that the contract was not proceeding with due diligence and that the decision to terminate was reasonable; that at the time of the termination there were, and still are, grounds for the view that an employer is not in breach of contract by terminating on a clause 63 certificate, the termination clause in the contract that was subsequently reversed in arbitration; and that the employer's case was advanced in a well-founded, thorough, robust, well-thought-out and more than competent fashion. In view of this, there has been no basis on which to pursue a costs claim against the professional advisers to Limerick City Council. The legal advisers for this case were from McCann FitzGerald.

Has anybody in the Department or in Limerick City Council been held responsible? It is one thing to say that the Department has not pursued the consulting engineers or the legal advisers, but the Department must be culpable as well. In the real world, with those figures, nobody could reasonably expect to hold on to his or her job after a cock-up of such monumental proportions. Has anybody been held responsible in Ms Tallon's Department?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I appreciate the concerns of Deputies Collins and O'Keeffe and the Chairman. There is no escaping the disappointment that the Exchequer has had to meet a high cost for this project. We considered our position carefully at every stage and we considered the risks. There were four separate risk assessments. We availed fully of all of the procedures available to us in managing this contract. Heads have not rolled--

Ms Geraldine Tallon

- -but significant changes have been made both internally and externally in terms of the form of the contract, which has undergone changes and been tightened up. We have also developed our procedures and systems--

Surely it is not a question of procedures. This was about the competence and judgment of professionals, both legal and engineering. Procedures did not come into it. It was a question of professional judgment. There was conciliation and arbitration, and after that there was the High Court. Surely judgment was involved at all stages.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I agree. Judgment was involved at all stages and conditions of contract also applied at all stages. It was important that we followed due process in terms of the conditions of contract. Having assessed and examined the papers in responding to the Comptroller and Auditor General's investigation last July, we were thorough and rigorous at all stages in the management of this saga. We have expertise and experience and we have a good reputation. We manage hundreds of contracts. If we consider just the water services programme, there are more than 120 live contracts at the moment. There were around 400 schemes in the water services programme under the last national development programme, and this is the only instance in which a contractor was dismissed.

Is the Department still using McCann FitzGerald for advice on contracts?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

McCann FitzGerald was used by Limerick City Council in this context. We are not, to my knowledge, using McCann FitzGerald for legal advice on water services contracts.

I take it that Ms Tallon's answer is that nobody within the Department or Limerick City Council was sanctioned over this. I want to move on from this because we have talked about it and others will come back to it.

Staying with the water services programme, I have a particular problem with the Department's policy on bundling schemes. I could pick a part of my own constituency in which five or six population centres were scheduled for provision of sewerage schemes seven, eight or nine years ago, but to date they have still not arrived. The building boom has come and gone and house prices have increased exorbitantly in the eight or nine intervening years. Smaller towns and villages have experienced a drop in population as young people have moved to larger centres where there is greater availability of starter homes. It has been the policy of the Department to bundle these schemes together and eight or nine years on we are still no nearer to seeing delivery. Why is it still pursuing this policy and when can we expect to see delivery? For example, in my constituency schemes at Athea Glen, Shanagolden, Foynes and Askeaton have been bundled together.

One must be careful not to stray into policy matters.

I am not. There is a public interest in this matter. The policy being pursued by the Department is that it will bundle schemes together to achieve value for money but eight years on there has still been no delivery. The public has not been served because the price of land has increased. We do not have serviced land available. Will Ms Tallon comment on this?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I will respond to the Deputy on a very broad level. The water services investment programme is a very large one. We have 950 schemes identified in the rollover programme for the period 2007-09 to be advanced through planning and construction. The scale of the programme is such that we are reaching down to smaller communities in every part of the country. The programme is so comprehensive that it is providing for the putting in place of sewerage facilities in every community with a population of 1,000 or more. There are schemes in areas with even smaller populations where there are particular issues of pollution risk, for example.

We try in the interests of the public purse to create economies of scale. For that reason we have encouraged local authorities to bundle smaller schemes together to be advanced as a single package to secure greater market interest. This secures better quality proposals and prices for the investment involved. The smaller the project the less likely it is that suitable contractors will be interested in bidding. Treatment plant projects are sometimes so complex that they fall outside the range of local contractors who might be quite content to take on other work. Putting a bid together costs money as far as tenderers are concerned. We want them to be satisfied that the cost will be justified by the size of the contract on offer. We are interested in increasing the range of suitable bidders, promoting competition in terms of pricing and avoiding inferior solutions being advanced. In that context, bundling has helped.

I accept what the Secretary General says but the delay has negated the good intentions.

With the Chairman's permission, I will ask three final questions. Given that a formal instruction has issued to local authorities, is it the policy of the Department not to permit developers to buy out of their obligations under Part V of the Planning and Development Act in respect of social and affordable housing?

My second question concerns the local government fund and motor tax on line service. It is a great service. The Secretary General has alluded to the fact that it has the highest usage outside Revenue's ROSS service. Is she aware that a person can tax his or her car on line without having a valid NCT certificate and that one can input incorrect insurance details and receive a motor tax certificate in the post?

In relation to inland fisheries, I understand the Central Fisheries Board is due to be decentralised to County Leitrim. It relocated from Mobhi Road, Glasnevin, to the Swords business campus to a facility which belonged to the Central Statistics Office. What is the current position?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I am afraid I am not able to answer the Deputy's last question. As the Central Fisheries Board does not fall within my remit, I will have to pass on that question.

On the issue on motor tax, I am afraid I do not immediately have an answer for the Deputy but will follow up on the detail and will provide it for him. On his first question about developers buying out of their social and affordable housing obligations, the suggestion has been made that they are buying their way out of their Part V obligations by making cash settlements, but I do not have any evidence to support that view. If one makes assumptions, completed units and land provided account for about 85% of the yield under Part V; the remaining 15% is accounted for in the form of cash settlements being made to local authorities but it has to be ringfenced by them for use in the provision of social and affordable housing. We have always made it very clear to local authorities that we favour the provision of units rather than cash settlements.

Does the Secretary General have any idea of the balance of funds on which local authorities are sitting because we all know they have been accepting cash settlements? Is the position being monitored?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I am not sure I can give the Deputy full information. There is a balance of about €69 million.

Will the Secretary General come back to us with a figure for all local authorities which her Department might collate? That would be of interest to the committee.

I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to come in at this stage.

Mr. John Purcell

As I said in my opening remarks, the particular aspect of inland fisheries does not fall within the remit of the Accounting Officer. The situation has been complicated by the proposal made in October 2005 to replace the central and regional fisheries boards with a national inland fisheries authority. That proposal was in limbo during the general election. Post the election the Government established an interdepartmental committee to look at the matter afresh. The new Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources has taken the view that the fisheries boards should be given another opportunity to reform the management of inland fisheries and they have been requested to respond in time for proposals to be put to the Government in April. That suggests no one should hold his or her breath about the Central Fisheries Board being decentralised at this stage, having taken this tour around north Dublin.

Before calling Deputy Curran, in order to get an idea of how the Department's attitude has changed towards disputes, I ask the Secretary General about two cases at arbitration, those involving the Dublin submarine pipeline and a housing scheme in Naas involving claims amounting to €40 million and €5 million. Has the Department taken legal advice in both? Will the Secretary General give us an idea of the procedures in place to deal with these two specific cases?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Variable priced contracts were in place in both those cases with particular machinery; that of conciliation and arbitration, associated with contract procedures. We have changed the procedures in place in the water services area quite significantly to require restricted tendering in cases where specialist expertise is viewed to be essential, such as in contracts that require tunnelling. We have also identified a need for and specified more clearly since 2002 the requirements for risk analysis and risk assessment to be carried out at critical stages of decision-making in the handling of disputes.

We have received advice, as part of the outcome of the report on the Limerick main drainage scheme, that we should further develop the risk assessment methodology and provide worked examples in guidance to local authorities. We intend to act on that advice during the course of this year.

In regard to the cases mentioned by the Chairman, the two identified by the Comptroller and Auditor General, in the case of the Dublin Bay pipeline, settlement proposals are currently under consideration by Dublin City Council. Risk assessment has been undertaken and possibly settlement will be the route in that case. Procedure has been followed in the case of the housing scheme in Naas. A dispute in that respect was referred to arbitration. Conciliation was undertaken and the conciliator found in favour of the contractor. That recommendation was not accepted by the town council involved and a process of negotiation between the parties is currently under way, and in respect of some aspects settlement has been reached. We have not arrived at the stage of arbitration, but if there is arbitration, it may be on a more limited element of the issues associated with that dispute.

The order in which I will call speakers is Deputies Curran, Fleming, McCormack, Kenneally, O'Brien, Broughan and Shortall.

Does a time limit apply to contributions?

Speakers will have ten minutes each.

I wish to raise a different issue. The last paragraph of Ms Tallon's opening statement refers to the PRTB. I wish to pick up on an issue that arose previously and I will be careful how I handle it this time. The PRTB was established under legislation in 2004 and it has been effectively operating for 2005, 2006 and 2007. I note that the first time the Department took a landlord to court for failing to register was last December, some three years after the board was established. Why did it take so long to take such a case?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I will ask Ms Diskin to respond to that question.

Ms Carmel Diskin

First, we must issue notices under the legislation and, thus, due process must take pace. Prior to taking anyone to court we must be satisfied that we have the proper details. We need the landlord's name and address and in that respect we encounter many problems. Nevertheless, we took one landlord to court and secured a successful conviction.

I wish to be brief in my questions as I wish to raise other issues. Ms Diskin said that the board encountered difficulties specifically in tracking down the landlords. Of how many tenancies and properties is she aware that the board does not know the identity of the landlord?

Ms Carmel Diskin

We would not have that information to hand but suffice it to say we receive referrals in that regard. We work closely with the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the local authorities and we have received thousands of referrals from them, all of which we pursue.

This is a significant issue and surely the board should know the number it is seeking in this respect? Ms Diskin may not have the information with her today, but I take it that it would be available. Of how many tenancies and properties is she aware that the board does not know the identity of the landlord? Surely that information is available.

Ms Carmel Diskin

We would be able to come back to the Deputy with that information.

I ask that it be forwarded to the committee.

One of the issues raised with me as a public representative is that concerning landlords. The first time someone goes to the PRTB is when he or she has an issue concerning a rented property and he or she tends to be told that the board cannot find the landlord and there is nothing further it can do. What procedures are in place and what efforts has the board made to track down landlords?

Ms Carmel Diskin

We work closely with the Department of Social and Family Affairs and there is provision in the legislation for it to exchange data with the Department. That is one avenue we pursue. We have on-line access to the Land Registry and we would check its records. We would work closely with the environmental health officers in the local authorities and we would check details with them. Those would be the avenues we would pursue.

Are there any properties more than a year old in respect of which the board has failed to identify the landlord?

Ms Carmel Diskin

Yes.

Are there many properties more than two years old in respect of which the board has failed to identify the landlords?

Ms Carmel Diskin

Possibly.

What happens in those cases?

Ms Carmel Diskin

We are bound by the legislation. We just serve the legal notices. Without going into--

To return to Ms Diskin's first point, if the board has not identified the landlord to a satisfactory degree, he or she will never end up in court, which was the first point I made. I asked why it took so long for the board to bring a case to which Ms Diskin replied that it had to be careful that it had properly identify the landlord and so forth. Perhaps she could provide a breakdown on those figures to this committee as we do not have know those figures. In other words, I refer to details of the total number of cases the board is pursuing in regard to landlords and the time involved, namely, how many of those cases are six, 12 or 24 months old in respect of which the board has failed to identify the landlords. As public representatives, we know of anecdotal evidence of such cases. The committee is trying to quantify and identify that issue. Maybe Ms Diskin would supply the committee with the relevant information. I will leave it at that.

Ms Kathryn Ward

A further point, in regard to serving notices is that while we would serve more than 6,500 notices to landlords for whom we have their address, once the landlord registers the property there is no pursuit to court. Quite a number of good results have emerged from the issuing of our notices. In the case the Deputy asked about, there was no response to any of those notices and, therefore, we proceeded to court.

I am also concerned about the cases in respect of which the board has not traced the landlords.

Ms Kathryn Ward

Yes, we also have a concern about that issue. As my colleague said, we have tried several avenues to pursue landlords. A difficulty arises where the tenant has taken a tenancy and all he or she might know is that "Jimmy comes to collect the rent" and he or she does not even have the landlord's telephone number.

I appreciate that. All I am asking at this stage is that Ms Ward quantifies that issue for the committee.

Ms Kathryn Ward

We will certainly do our best and come back to the committee on that.

We can pursue this issue again with the board in due course. We do not have the information at this point.

In regard to disputes, people who refer disputes to the PRTB say that the time involved in dealing with them is becoming longer and that the process is becoming ineffective. Some people are afraid to make a claim to it because it will antagonise the landlord and the tenant and a six or a nine month period will elapse before there is a resolution of the issue. What is Ms Ward's view on that?

Ms Kathryn Ward

The time limits are a concern and they would certainly be of concern to the board and to the Department. However, to put things in a certain context, in 2005 we had something like 900 referrals, in 2006 that went up to 1,200 and in 2007 there were 1,500 referrals. One can imagine therefore that the level of referrals has gone up. Sometimes, the time it takes depends quite a lot on the complexity of the case, and a good deal is concerned with finding the relevant information so that we pursue the individuals — whether it be a tenant who has left a tenancy and we do not have a forwarding address, or a landlord whom we may not have details for either. Other impacts are that, as part of our process, people have the right to appeal and seek adjournments in certain circumstances, so that all adds to the time delay. In serious cases, however, the board has a good reputation in responding. For example, in one case, we had a complaint referred by a landlord for serious anti-social behaviour on the part of a tenant. We held a tribunal within three days and once that order was issued we were in the courts within weeks, and had that tenant--

I put it to Ms Ward that is the exception rather than the rule. I have not heard of many cases being dealt with in that timely fashion. I do not want to labour the point, but if Ms Ward has the information perhaps she would supply it to this committee. What is the average length of time for such cases? In other words, when cases are referred to the PRTB how many are dealt with within one, three or six months? I could give an example of a case that took six or nine months, while Ms Ward could cite one that took less time, but that is not what I am getting at. I am looking at the effectiveness and efficiency of the overall service. If Ms Ward could supply that documentation to the committee we would appreciate it.

Ms Kathryn Ward

We are certainly willing to give the committee figures, but as regards the process alone, in the vast majority of cases, other than perhaps for very serious anti-social behaviour, it would not allow the board to act. We are legally constrained from dealing with a case within a month other than under specific conditions because one must notify the other party. Because we offer either a mediation service or an adjudication service, one must allow the other party to decide which option they want, so there would be certain constraints anyway.

I appreciate that. I have other questions and I am trying to be as quick as possible, Chairman. I take Ms Ward's point but where third parties make complaints, the seriousness of the issue is not always recognised by the board. They go into this long process that is not being dealt with in the speedy manner Ms Ward referred to concerning the case that was dealt with in three days. That is our experience on this side of the table. We would like some of the information so that we can analyse it in a little more detail.

My final question concerns the transmission of information between the PRTB and various other agencies, such as social welfare, which Ms Ward mentioned. There is no automatic flow of information between the PRTB and the Revenue Commissioners — it is by means of request, is that correct?

Ms Kathryn Ward

It is by means of request and is on a case-by-case basis. That seems to work sufficiently. We have not been informed by the Revenue Commissioners that there is a difficulty about that. How we present the information to them would have been discussed as the Bill went through the Houses of the Oireachtas. At that stage, it seemed to be quite acceptable that the procedure would be on a case-by-case basis. While we have no objection in principle to changes in that, provided the required legislative changes came into force, we have not been inundated with any requests, to be honest.

That was my next question. How many requests has the Private Residential Tenancies Board received from the Revenue Commissioners for this type of information?

Ms Kathryn Ward

Less than ten. We do not see it as an issue.

No, it is not an issue from the PRTB's point of view but it is an issue the committee has pursued and it will be worth examining the two sets of answers from Ms Ward and the Revenue Commissioners. I am not being critical, I am just asking. I know time is passing so I want to finish with Ms Tallon. Item C1 in the Vote has been referred to, which is the water and sewerage services programme. It was originally €399 million and the outcome was €465 million. I am not criticising that figure but how many different schemes did the sum of €465 million account for approximately?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We have something over 120 schemes in progress at the moment in 113 locations, so it would account for that type of volume of activity.

I want to probe this a little. How long were those schemes with Ms Tallon's Department before they got approval?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

With respect, that is a "how long is a piece of string?" kind of question.

I will put it another way. Were any of those schemes in the Department approved in less than a year?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Yes, some small schemes would certainly be less than a year. We have taken significant measures in recent years to streamline our approval procedures.

Would it be a small number?

Ms Kathryn Ward

A relatively--

Let us just stick with the 120 figure until I get my head around it. A number would have been dealt with in a year; the whole process would have been completed within a year.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I am not sure that I can give the Deputy a precise number.

Some would have?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We have significantly devolved procedures to local government level for schemes costing €5 million or less.

What about other schemes? I will conclude with this point. Let me put it to Ms Tallon the way it has been put to me concerning when a scheme goes into the Department. I suppose when they are a little bit bigger there may be a greater element of complexity but let me do the comparison. If I lodge a planning application to any local authority there is a prescribed procedure. In other words, the public can make submissions for a certain period of time and the local authority must make a decision within a certain period of time, but it may seek additional information. I have been told that there are no comparable procedures for dealing with these schemes when they are sent to the Department. People also say that when a scheme goes to the Department and there is something departmental officials are unsure about, do not like or need further information on, it is not an aspect of the scheme that is referred back but the entire scheme. The whole process seems to be very drawn out with no deadlines. Both at the local authority end and the Department's end, it means that the project takes forever before it gets to the stage where it is approved to go to tender. Does Ms Tallon see it that way?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

No, I do not quite see it that way.

Which bit of it does she not see?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

However, I can understand the concern the Deputy has.

Never mind my concern. Specifically, what bit of it does Ms Tallon see differently?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I see a very large programme of 955 schemes to roll-over and develop in the 2007-09 period. I see a programme for 2008, which includes just over 90 schemes to go to construction in 2008, in addition to the 120 odd contract schemes already under way. So I see a very large and dynamic programme, but I also see a programme that has to meet a whole variety of statutory requirements and obligations in terms of EU legislation and planning procedures. I can see quite a number of schemes that are very complex from a civil engineering point of view. Therefore it is very difficult to say that one can streamline things absolutely over a programme as large and varied as the kind of programme we have in water services because schemes must be looked at on a case-by-case basis, and they vary very much in terms of the extent of the collection system that may be involved.

I acknowledge that and that is why I referred to the larger schemes. I am not suggesting that they need to be turned around in two months. However, there is a significant variation in how long it takes for those schemes to be dealt with, whereas if one goes through the planning process whether to build a townhouse or Lansdowne Road stadium, the structure is somewhat similar. That does not seem to be the same when dealing with schemes that come to the Department. When the Department sends the scheme back to a local authority it is generally the scheme that is sent back rather than focusing, from a planning point of view, on additional information that would be quite specific. My understanding, however, is that the whole scheme goes back and forth. From the point of view of planning, it would be additional information and quite specific. There does not seem to be a streamlined process with clear deadlines. I am not suggesting the Department should skip any of the statutory requirements, whether national or EU. However, schemes placed before the Department take a long time to be approved; they do not seem to be approved in chronological order. I know this is a complex issue but the system is not necessarily efficient.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I understand the point the Deputy makes and agree it is entirely valid. There is a variation in the times involved because there is a variation in the size and complexity of schemes. Equally, prioritising schemes and the reasons for which they are necessary is very important from our point of view. Schemes are being advanced on the basis of prioritisation in the provision of quality drinking water to meet drinking water standards and in the provision of urban wastewater treatment facilities to meet urban wastewater treatment directive compliance standards. I refer to schemes which are necessary and critical for economic development. For example, we attach high priority to the need for services in gateways and hubs under the national spatial strategy and to schemes necessary to avoid pollution. However, I accept what the Deputy said about the length and duration of the procedure involved. It is a fair point and one at which I am certainly prepared to look in more detail in terms of the future management of the water services programme. It is an issue under active discussion with city and county managers. I will remain conscious of it and will be happy to talk to him about it on a better basis in the future.

As I was my party's spokesperson on the environment, I have a special interest in the electronic voting machines. This month the Minister said consultants had been engaged to deal with the leasing arrangements and make a recommendation on the termination of the leases. Will Ms Tallon give us the details of the assessment by the consultants? What is the current cost of storing the machines? What is the total cost to date? I have a figure of €850,000 for last year. Is that correct? What is the projected cost for this year? What will happen at the end of the day?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The cost of storage locally in 2006 was €706,000 and in 2007, €489,000. We have moved to a position where 60% of the electronic voting equipment is in centralised storage in Gormanston. That accounts for the reduction in local storage costs. Advisers were appointed to look at the properties selected by returning officers at local level to store the electronic voting machines and advise on the appropriate means of surrender from the arrangements made. DTZ Sherry FitzGerald is the consultant involved and has been assessing the arrangements made at various locations and the most appropriate options locally to retreat from them.

Should there be termination?

Did any of the contracts cause concern in terms of the way returning officers had entered into arrangements for leasing premises? Was there a close relationship between a returning officer and the owner of a premises in any case?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

In some instances, I understand there was a relationship between the returning officer and the owner of a premises. However, these arrangements were the responsibility of the returning officers concerned. We wrote to them in January 2003 asking them to make arrangements for storage in advance of delivery of the equipment. We set out some basic requirements; for example, that premises were to be dry and not damp. Beyond this, we did not set out significant requirements.

On the procurement of storage facilities, where suitable storage facilities were not available in local authority premises, courthouses or other public buildings, returning officers undertook investigations and inspections locally of suitable and secure premises. A number of them were assisted by the OPW and local authorities in securing--

Did the Department think of the National Museum as a possible repository, given what we know about IT equipment?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The equipment has a 20 year lifespan.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It is in its youth at this stage.

I could argue that point with Ms Tallon but I will not.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I thank the Chairman.

Let us get back to the issue of procurement.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I refer to the investigations and inspections carried out by returning officers. We take the view that the outcome of their investigations represented the most viable storage arrangements available locally in the circumstances. They represented a reasonable mobilisation of the riding instructions the returning officers had received. There is a minority of instances in which returning officers have an interest in the storage premises but in all cases returning officers indicated to us — we had no reason to doubt them — that the decision to use particular premises was made following extensive research and investigation locally and was based on a failure to secure suitable alternative secure rental properties in the areas involved.

What are the leasing arrangements in the minority of cases, including the duration of the lease, costs, etc? I refer to cases where returning officers awarded the contract to somebody close to them or perhaps themselves.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The arrangements vary from area to area. In some instances, premises are leased on an annual--

The Secretary General has misunderstood my question. She stated that there was a minority of cases where returning officers entered into contracts for storage with close relations or with companies they owned. What was the nature of the contracts or the leasing arrangements?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The arrangements in the case of Dublin involved an annual lease. In Cork city there was a ten-year lease arrangement. In the case of both Dublin and Cork, the equipment has been moved into the centralised storage arrangement which we have in Gormanstown at this stage.

In the account before us, under subheads C8 and C9, recycling services, there is a provision of €10 million and the outturn was €6.9 million. The Department under spent by €3.1 million. Under landfill remediation where there was provision for €10 million, the Department spent €7.7 million which resulted in a shortfall in expenditure of €2.3 million. In this day and age, these are important issues. Local authorities are spending a great deal, but the biggest problem the people who have moved to recycling encounter is lack of infrastructure and facilities. It is not good enough when the Dáil provides money for recycling and landfill remediation that the Department does not seem to be able to spend it on the resources to improve the environment. Why was there such significant under spending in those areas in that year?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We spend money on waste recycling, both from the Exchequer under the subheads Deputy Fleming identified and from the environment fund. There is spending under two headings. The areas we fund from the Exchequer are quite significant in terms of the kind of waste recovery facilities involved.

In terms of subhead C8, there are mechanical and biological treatment facilities at Kilshane Cross and Ballyogan — two specific facilities within the greater Dublin waste management structure which unfortunately did not proceed as quickly as anticipated.

During 2006 would the Secretary General have been aware of that? I suspect it could have been May when the Oireachtas approved the Estimate for 2006. Perhaps Ms Tallon knows the date the Estimate was cleared, but I suspect it must have been well known almost half-way through the year that this was not to happen. Why was the Oireachtas asked to pass a Vote which at that time officialdom would have known would not be spent?

The same issue arises under subhead D4, community and social inclusion, where €10 million was the Estimate and €5 million was spent. These are not massive amounts of money, but recycling facilities, community and social inclusion are important to the people. We all need water, roads and housing projects, but people are tuned in to such issues and it is dreadful to note under spending on such issues. Was there a dramatic increase in expenditure the following year to make up for the under spending in addition to the normal amount spent or was the effect that something else was delayed the following year and the Department ran behind?

I note that there were variations in 24 out of 35 subheads, some of which were fairly substantial. The Department is not performing that well.

The problem with this, and possibly with the Limerick matter to which we referred earlier, was a lack of proper estimation at the beginning of the process of all the contingencies and difficulties that could possibly have arisen. Oireachtas committees pass Estimates several months into the year when it is clear to all involved at local authority level that planning permission and Part 8 motions are not in place. It should have been known to officials. Are there other projects into which the Department can move the money to get it spent when it is being voted through the Oireachtas?

To reflect the Chairman's point, there seem to be many areas where there is quite a difference in the outturn. It raises questions about the accuracy of the Estimates procedure in the first place. Perhaps Ms Tallon would make a general comment.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It would not be correct to say that we would have known at the time that the Estimates were being adopted and we would certainly have been pressing very strongly for progress on waste infrastructure because that is a critical area, as everyone is aware. We are spending significantly on waste infrastructure from the environment fund as well as from the Exchequer. I can give some very good examples in terms of facilities that have been put in place. For example, we had 46 civic amenity sites in place in 2001 and we had 86 by the end of 2006. We had 1,400 bring banks at the end of 2001 and we had more than 1,900 by the end of 2006. Facilities are being provided and are being put in place, but the significant scale facilities which were covered by the subheads Deputy Fleming identified have been publicly contentious and slow in working their way through the system.

We undertake expenditure review very regularly within the Department. We report to the Department of Finance on a bi-monthly basis in terms of our expenditure position and we undertake a substantial review in the autumn. I am satisfied that we have good procedure in place in terms of managing our spend. In recent years we have devoted and diverted additional funding within our overall capital envelop to the water services area in particular.

The other topic I want to ask about is the costs for the Tribunal of Inquiry into Certain Planning Matters and Payments known as the Mahon tribunal, formerly, the Flood tribunal. In the year in question the Department paid out €16 million to the tribunal. At the end of 2006, according to these figures, the accumulative spend was €62.3 million. Ms Tallon might give us the current position on that.

Are there documented agreed procedures in place between Ms Tallon, as Accounting Officer, and the tribunal on estimating costs likely to be incurred each year?

Ms Tallon might give the committee a update on the current liabilities and the contingent liability from the Department. The Comptroller and Auditor General is undertaking an extensive report on this issue and the other tribunals, and we at this committee expect to hear from Ms Tallon and probably the members of the tribunal to discuss the outcome of those issues in due course as it involves a great deal of taxpayers' money.

It is important for the integrity and public confidence in the tribunal that these procedures be in place. We would not like to find at the end of it that the costs are phenomenally higher than people reasonably would have been entitled to anticipate. It is important Ms Tallon, as Accounting Officer, has these procedures in place. She might take us through them.

I will raise a matter before Ms Tallon responds to Deputy Fleming. At a time when there are massive social housing lists around the country I note that the Department under spent to the tune of €77.6 million on local authority and social housing. On the Kyoto credits, the Department spent €20 million in penalties in 2006. What were the corresponding figures for 2007 and what are the projected figures for 2008?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I will deal, first, with Deputy Fleming's questions on the Mahon tribunal. We spent €16.1 million in 2006. Expenditure on the tribunal was €10.4 million in 2007. The cumulative figure to the end of 2007 was €72.7 million. We monitor costs on a regular basis. The costs are associated with the operation of the tribunal, with third parties and external counsel. Third party fees and external counsel costs are minimised as far as possible through the use of legal cost accountants who advise us on them. If appropriate, they are submitted to the Taxing Master.

We have not made provision for contingent liability in the appropriation account. As I understand it, this is not a feature of Government public accounting procedure. It would be something for the Minister for Finance to consider as part of any change in accounting practice relating to Departments' appropriation accounts. The Comptroller and Auditor General intends to undertake examination of the Mahon and other tribunals. His office has been in contact with us in that regard. We will co-operate fully with his investigation and may well be obliged to appear before the committee at a later date in respect of it.

Other Accounting Officers make provision for contingent liabilities or try to estimate liabilities in respect of various issues. It may have been Ms Tallon's decision not to include a contingent liability but she is not prevented from doing so. She stated the Department monitored third party costs. What is the figure for such costs, particularly those not covered in the Estimates? The €72.7 million to which Ms Tallon referred is only a drop in the ocean, particularly when one takes into account the money spent on all previous tribunals. The direct costs attaching to a tribunal are always only a small fraction of the final costs. As Accounting Officer, what is Ms Tallon's assessment of the position? She should bear in mind that we are discussing figures and that there is no policy issue involved.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

As regards costs identified to the end of 2007, those for third parties were of the order of €8 million. The operational costs relating to the tribunal are between €9 million and €10 million annually. The legal team costs stand at something over €40 million at this stage.

I do not think Ms Tallon understood my question. She provided a breakdown of the costs paid out to date, namely, €72.7 million. However, I asked about costs incurred but in respect of which payment had yet to be made. Is Ms Tallon in a position to provide a figure for costs incurred which may be paid through the Department's Vote in due course?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I apologise. I thought the Deputy had requested a breakdown of the--

The information provided is useful. However, I requested other information.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It is difficult for me, as Accounting Officer, to estimate the future costs of the Mahon tribunal.

I am not asking Ms Tallon to estimate future costs. I am referring to costs incurred in the past ten years which have not yet been presented by the tribunal to the Department for payment through its Vote. I accept that the final figure cannot be estimated. I am not referring to costs that may be incurred next year or the year after; I am referring to costs incurred to date. Ms Tallon mentioned third party costs. Does the Department have a list of the names of everyone who has been awarded costs in respect of their representation at the tribunal?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

As I understand it, legal costs have not been awarded since 2002. I, therefore, have no basis for knowing the figure relating to legal costs after that date; neither do I possess a detailed list such as that about which the Deputy inquired, particularly in circumstances where the tribunal has yet to determine costs. There must be due process. I am only in a position to provide the figures to which I have referred.

Does Ms Tallon agree that it is wholly unsatisfactory for the Committee of Public Accounts to be informed that the tribunal is incurring costs but that it is not possible to estimate their level? The costs to which I refer may be massive or minimal. If we learned anything from the case in Limerick to which reference was made, it is that people must be aware of the liabilities that will be incurred by the State as a result of events that occurred in the past ten years. I accept that future costs cannot be estimated. However, costs have been incurred. Awards have not yet been made but does Ms Tallon accept that there is a contingent liability?

Perhaps we should ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to comment.

We can move on. I think I have made my point. There is a responsibility on a Department which has responsibility for a tribunal to be able to provide information other than that relating merely to what was paid out from its Vote.

The Secretary General stated the Comptroller and Auditor General had raised these issues.

I will conclude by saying I fully support what the Comptroller and Auditor General said. However, Accounting Officers have responsibilities in their own right.

Perhaps Mr. Purcell will comment.

Mr. John Purcell

Concerns have been raised here and elsewhere with regard to hidden liabilities and the need to be aware of them. As the Accounting Officer stated, in this case it is very difficult to put figures on those liabilities, particularly because there are so many uncertainties regarding whether the costs will be granted. In some instances, there are uncertainties as to whether claims for costs have been received. In addition, account must be taken of the extent to which those costs will be assessed. Without wishing to pre-empt the report, we will be able to arrive at a range of figures on the basis of examining particular scenarios. However, Deputy Fleming's point is valid that there should be provision in Government financial procedures for including a reference to contingent liabilities in the appropriation accounts. A review group is being set up under the chairmanship of the Department of Finance, on which my office will be represented, to examine the format and presentation generally of the appropriation accounts. We will bring that concern to the review group's work.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The Chairman asked about the housing allocation and the variation between that allocation and the spend. In 2006 the total provision was €1.443 billion and the spend was €1.362 billion. The spend was 94% of the original estimate. At the same time, it was 11% more than the 2005 outturn of €1.232 billion. The savings arose primarily from delays to the Ballymun regeneration scheme. A sum of €47 million was saved due to a delay in detenanting. A number of other regeneration and remedial works schemes were also delayed where progress was slower than anticipated. Progress is being made on these projects with 2007 spending in line with the estimate.

The savings amounted to €77.6 million. When will the report on the Ballymun regeneration scheme be made available?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I expect the Minister will lay the report before the Oireachtas within the next few weeks. It should be available in early March.

A sum of €77.6 million would build another 200 houses for those who are crying out for them. Could improvements be made in the Department's controls to divert the unspent moneys to social housing more effectively?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I appreciate the Chairman's point about the need for continued strong investment in housing. We have a strong and continuing commitment to investment and regeneration in Ballymun and a number of other areas. With regard to the underspend in 2006, additional money was allocated to the water services programme, a large and urgent investment programme. Ours is a large Department in the context of project and contract management and a range of areas receive high priority. We have a good track record and absorption capacity in respect of the use of State funding in productive ways in our capital programmes.

But there were variations in 24 of 35 subheads in the Department's Vote.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Some were small and, ultimately, within our capital envelope. Following agreement with the Department of Finance, we carried forward €20 million in capital funds from 2006 to 2007 when the money was fully absorbed. On a scheme such as Ballymun, an underspend does not denote a taking a foot off the brake attitude from our point of view. Regeneration schemes by their nature are very complex because one is re-engineering around a living population. It is not the same as a new build on a greenfield site where houses are built and people move in. People are living in Ballymun and detailed procedures must be put in place for consultation, agreement, detenanting and relocation. Regeneration is a slower and more complex exercise than new build. We remain very committed to Ballymun. We are keen to learn from the experience in managing the Ballymun regeneration project and applying it in other areas where there is regeneration such as Limerick.

But there were also delays in the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, that year.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It is correct that there was a slower than anticipated spend in 2006 on the RAS. A saving of €13 million was identified in this regard. Putting in place the necessary administrative arrangements took longer than expected; the transfer of individual households also took longer than anticipated, while difficulties were experienced with landlords and in inspecting and ensuring the quality of accommodation. That position was reversed in 2007 as the scheme became operational in all areas and momentum built up considerably.

When the Revenue Commissioners appeared before the committee recently, they said they had found it difficult to obtain PPS numbers from landlords participating in the scheme in order that people enjoying income from the RAS would declare their earnings fully.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We do not have outstanding issues with Revenue regarding the RAS. The Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners when he appeared before the committee fully acknowledged the co-operation of my Department with his agency. Local authorities prepare individual returns for the RAS for Revenue on a format and basis devised by it. We compile the returns and send a composite return to Revenue on behalf of the local government sector. We made our first returns in March 2007 for 2006 on the basis of an agreed format that represented Revenue's requirements. There were minor glitches in the spreadsheet used on that occasion which have been sorted out. A composite return will be provided for Revenue for 2007 by the end of March.

If I am a landlord who would like to participate in the scheme, is it an absolute condition that I produce a PPS number?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

One must be tax compliant if registering for RAS.

What about the Kyoto Protocol?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

As part of the climate change strategy, the Government agreed in 2006 to purchase up to 18 million carbon credits, roughly 3.6 million credits a year, for the Kyoto Protocol commitment period. A provision of €270 million was made through the National Development Plan 2007-2013 for the purchase of credits by the NTMA on behalf of the Government. In December 2006 the Government entered into an agreement with the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development to invest €20 million in a multilateral carbon credit fund. This investment was made in 2006 on the basis of a one-off provision in that year in the Department's Vote. This was, so to speak, an up-front investment. The Department also entered into an agreement in early 2007 with the World Bank to invest a further €20 million in funds managed by it. This sum is being paid on a drawdown basis rather than an up-front basis. The first drawdown was made in 2007.

My questions have been been asked by Deputies Collins and Curran but I wish to comment and ask another question.

With the Limerick debacle in mind, this presentation has been a total whitewash of the whole issue, as if there is no blame attaching to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government or Limerick City Council. On the so-called independent examination, I would not expect one civil servant making a report on other civil servants to come up with anything other than what they did come up with which endorses the inadequacy of the Department's system and expertise to exercise oversight of contracts and protect the public finances. It is obvious there was no such oversight or protection. A project supposed to cost €9.57 million cost €83 million. There have been gross mismanagement and incompetence.

The Secretary General in reply to another question said nobody had been held to account. Heads would roll if this happened in the private sector. What has happened defies logic. I am amazed at the way the Department, being so free and loose with taxpayers' money, did not find a way to go to the Supreme Court and thus prolong the matter even further. What happened beggars belief.

I refer to the bureaucracy surrounding the wastewater and sewerage schemes. I have a case similar to that outlined by Deputy Collins. A seven village scheme in County Waterford was started in 2001 but very little is in place seven years on. We are always being asked about it but the bureaucracy is unreal. The Secretary General stated more power was being given to local authorities to deal with contracts worth less than €5 million. She has accepted that procedures need to be examined. What improvements does she envisage and what will be the timescale involved? We cannot continue in this manner.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I am disappointed at the outcome in the Limerick case. I accept the views expressed on the matter. The scheme has been fully examined. The Department has nothing to hide, nor has it hidden anything about the train of conciliation and arbitration and how the dispute was handled.

It is something on which we will have to agree to disagree.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The matter has been independently examined, not least by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

I take the view that one cannot settle everything in contract management. With reference to the statistics I provided for the committee, at a time when we found ourselves in a position where 80% of time had expired and only 34% of the work had been completed, very serious questions needed to be asked. From the point of view of the public purse, notwithstanding the fact that many contracts are delivered very effectively on time and within budget, it would not be right for any contractor to believe no sanction would be applied in cases which showed such progress. Despite the good progress made in the majority of cases, where a contract is seriously out of line, public authorities must be seen to respond vigorously.

With regard to village schemes, I sympathise with Deputies who find that schemes have been bundled. There may be a perception that progress is made at the slowest pace. The Department is always amenable to looking at the way in which bundles are being delivered to ensure a good momentum is maintained. The County Waterford grouped town and village sewerage scheme is included among the list to begin construction this year. One scheme is costing €48.3 million and planning is under way. The Tallow sewerage scheme is also under way. A contract award is imminent for the Kilmacthomas scheme. Tenders will be sought for the Cappoquin collection system very soon. There is identifiable progress to be reported.

On procedures generally, I sympathise with Deputies who regard the development of water services schemes as being associated with a very long timeframe. I can only go so far in saying these are large and complex schemes and must be dealt with on a case by case basis. I am actively engaging with city and county managers to examine the procedures involved. It may be feasible to reduce the number of stage approvals by the Department. We have dramatically reduced the number of stage approvals for schemes costing less than €5 million. We are examining whether we can properly balance our financial management and oversight requirements against an efficiency gain associated with raising the threshold. We will also examine the threshold for projects for which management responsibility is devolved to local authorities under the small schemes measure of the rural water programme. We increased the threshold from approximately €600,000 to €1 million in 2007 and are conscious of the need to maintain momentum within the programme. We have to try to maintain that momentum within the framework of the overall budget voted and provided for us.

I will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to give the committee some assistance on this issue.

Mr. John Purcell

I will try to help the committee understand what my concerns were in relation to the Limerick drainage contract. I share some of the concerns expressed by some members of the committee. Terminations of contracts due to lack of diligence are very rare, although clearly there are situations where contracts are terminated when a contractor is going to the wall and so on. That will always happen. This was, therefore, almost a unique case.

I think Deputy O'Keeffe spoke about getting a copy of the independent report carried out on behalf of the Department. That is a very good idea. However, there are also other independent reports, including the conciliator's report and the arbitrator's report. If the committee wants to go down that route, it will have to read both reports to get a full picture. For instance, the conciliator employed two independent experts in geo-technical and other matters to help him in coming to his judgment on the matter. The arbitrator's first interim report is 130 closely typed pages long, in which he talks about a deficiency of expertise in tunnelling matters. He said there was, to quote, a deficiency of both technical expertise and contractual niceties between Limerick City Council, the engineer, who for this purpose was a consortium of engineers from the private sector who acted as project managers, and the contractor.

Deputies Kenneally and Curran referred to delays in getting schemes under way and so on. The arbitrator is also very critical of the consortium of engineers in getting the scheme under way because there was a lapse of one year between the job going to tender and the signing of a contract. Even then, a start was not made because no agreement was reached as to the method and level at which the trenchless sections were to be carried out. The arbitrator who is independent in these matters said at least three months' preparation time had been entirely wasted and that, for this, the consortium must bear prime responsibility.

As I said, if the committee wishes to delve into this matter — I do not want to use the metaphor of "digging"— there is a lot of material to study. It should read all the independent reports in order to be able to come to an informed view on the way matters were handled by, if one likes, the State and its agents.

Something the Chairman said struck a chord with me. He stated one could get lots of reports showing that everything was procedurally correct but the exercise of judgment was also very important. I know I could be accused of speaking with the benefit of hindsight but in examining these matters I do try to ask what would have been reasonable at the time in the light of all the information available. It was also mentioned — again, I think by the Chairman — that the fact that ground stabilisation, admittedly not to the extent proposed by the original contractor, was necessary in this much more expensive replacement contract and was accepted as such should have started to ring alarm bells in the minds of those exercising judgments.

I could have made these comments at the end of the discussion. However, in the light of Deputy Kenneally's questions, I thought it might be useful to elaborate on some of my earlier comments.

I thank Mr. Purcell. In the light of what has just been said, the committee must seek the report prepared by the Department of Finance and examine the other reports done in order that we can draw a conclusion on this matter which is a blot on the record of public institutions.

It would be useful if we knew which officials held various frontline positions in the council and Department at the time. The Comptroller and Auditor General stated people were "righteous" in relation to this project, apparently when they were very wrong and this went on and on. It would be appropriate for the committee to know exactly who was dealing with the issue. The project did not take place in a vacuum.

We should obtain all the documentation related to the contract to allow us to draw conclusions on the basis of having all the evidence before us. I will make a formal request that the committee obtain all the reports.

It would have to include court decisions. We should not let this matter go because it is an abomination.

The frightening aspect of this case is that while procedures are being put in place, nobody seems to admit that this was more than a mistake. It was a monumental cock-up and the taxpayer is the victim. As the Comptroller and Auditor General stated, procedures are not good enough; professional judgment entered the equation. Let us get the documentation and take the matter from there. I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General.

I will move away from that issue and ask the Secretary General questions on a couple of other issues. A lot of money provided by the Department has been expended by local authorities on successful remedial works schemes on older houses. One of the problems I have with these works is that they go to tender. As part of the bureaucratic process, once tenders have been received, the local authorities must secure approval from the Department to allow the works to proceed. The bureaucracy is not nearly as extensive as in the previous cases we discussed.

By and large, local authorities are instructed to give the job to the lowest tender. In many cases, the local authority will know if a particular building company has made a complete mess of a previous project that may have cost the authority money to try to rectify. When I ask why local authorities award further contracts to such companies, I am told they are instructed by the Department to offer the contract to the lowest tender. This approach is foolish in the long term. A degree of discretion should be available to those at local level who know where they will get value for money. We get value for money in most but not all cases. This matter needs to be examined.

Under subhead B2, the Department underspent by a number of million euro, principally because the funding available for the disabled person's and essential repairs grant schemes was not drawn down by local authorities. Local authorities rather than the Department are at fault. Towards the end of every year the local authorities in my area run out of funding. Why does the Department not reward authorities which are doing their job properly and making good use of the money available? Rather than allowing the funds to be returned to the Department of Finance, why does the Department not redirect them to those authorities which are spending it? We would get much better value if it took this option.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We are learning all the time in terms of the approach to remedial works. I accept that if contractors who have good experience are in place they should be utilised to the greatest possible extent. We have allowed for the extension of existing contracts where experience has been built up. I assure the Deputy that we want to continue to learn from experience and ensure we can get value for money in that regard.

In terms of the disabled person's grant, significant improvements have been made in recent times in regard to the level of spend and the basis for spend in that area. The grant has increased from 66% to 80% and new arrangements have been made to allow local authorities to re-invest their internal capital receipts in the housing area. This has increased the scope and capacity of local authorities to provide for vulnerable categories of housing need in that area.

The Department has X amount of money under its Vote but it is only spending Y because certain local authorities are not spending the money that is available to them. Why can those funds not be directed to the local authorities which are spending it and will be able to spend it?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We do that.

Why then was there an underspend of €7 million?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Local authorities provide for their housing programme on the basis of action planning which is taking a broad view of the range and categories of need for which they provide. We allow for reallocation of funding within particular categories in the housing programme.

In regard to the saving of €7 million in 2006 identified by Deputy Kenneally, the services provided were demand led. We did not hold back money. The final outturn reflected the expenditure by local authorities on the applications they had approved.

With respect, the Secretary General still has not answered my question. Local authorities run out of money around September or October. I know this because it happens in my area. The point is reached when there is no further money available for essential repairs grants or the disabled person's grant, when local authorities have expended all the money that has been allocated to them. In another part of the country a local authority can have €1 million or €2 million sitting there and it is not able to spend it. Why is that not transferred to those local authorities that will spend it?

Some local authorities cannot spend it because they do not even employ occupational therapists. People have died waiting for repairs. I have seen people wait for two years. Why are local authorities not brought to account if they do not deliver their targets? They seem to be let off and perform at their own pace. This is a grave injustice, especially to the disabled and the elderly.

Yes. We should reward local authorities who do the job properly but we do not do that.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The problem may have related to the 66% recoupment and some authorities may have considered themselves to be in difficulty, effectively, in putting up one third of the cost involved. We have addressed that by increasing the grant from 66% to 80%. We have also addressed it by allowing--

The Secretary General still has not answered my question. I accept that some local authorities may have had difficulty for that reason but others did not and were prepared to run with it. Why not divert the money to where it would be spent?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We do reallocate money.

But there is still an underspend of €7.9 million.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

That was on a scheme that is demand led.

The demand was in other local authorities that ran out of money but the Department would not give it to them.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The demand was in terms of the number of applications that local authorities had and the number of applications that were approved.

Some local authorities went back to the Department to seek additional funding but they did not get it, while other local authorities did not spend their allocations. Ultimately, that funding went back to the Department of Finance when it could have been used to improve the living conditions of many people.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

As I said, we changed the system and increased the level of the grant from 66% to 80% . If there were difficulties we have changed our arrangements to try to address them.

What about 2007?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The number of disabled person's grants allocated in 2007 was approximately 6,280 with a value of €36.4 million. The number of essential repairs grants was 3,300 with a value of approximately €11 million.

The two issues of concern to Deputy Kenneally relate to whether the Department spent its total budget. Ms Tallon stated improvements were made, but were they reflected in the figures for 2007? Was the entire budget spent in 2007? Is that the question?

Yes. It was not spent in 2006.

No, but we were told improvements were made.

Yes, but the improvements were on the amount recouped by the Department. I do not know what mechanism is open to me but I have not got an answer to my question even though I asked it three times. I do not want to labour the issue. Perhaps it is not possible to answer it. I do not know.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We spent our money. In fact, we spent slightly more in 2007.

I am pleased to hear that but I have still not got an answer. I will move on.

This is a sensitive area that is not mentioned specifically in the presentation but reference was made to it in the back-up documentation supplied. I refer to funding spent on Traveller accommodation. This is not working. I am familiar with a case in my constituency where the main halting site in Waterford is about to be refurbished again for the third or fourth time. We are throwing money at the problem and it is not working. Halting sites get destroyed or vandalised. Nobody knows who does it. These people seem to be very unfortunate that their places get vandalised all the time. There must be a better way to deal with this problem.

Perhaps this is not a question for the Department of the Environment Heritage and Local Government, but do we need to make changes to the law? If we were to follow the advice of various Traveller organisations it would be to provide transient halting sites everywhere. That is fine but we cannot provide up to 40 bays in transient halting sites for when 30 or 40 Travellers arrive in a town or a city. That is not reasonable. We have a huge problem with Travellers parking illegally. I do not know if this is an issue for Ms Tallon's Department but there is a difficulty with the way we spend money in this area.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It is an issue for our Department and I am concerned about it because of the numbers of Travellers for whom we must provide. We had funds for capital provision for Travellers of roughly €35.5 million in 2006 and we have funding of €6.5 million on a current basis. We have statutory requirements and obligations to provide for Travellers at local government level.

My Department works closely with other Departments and representative groups to try to maintain as much momentum as possible within the Traveller accommodation programme. Apart from providing housing, we reimburse local authorities for the cost of providing caravans to Travellers in emergencies. We provide a special grant to Travellers for the first-time purchase of a house. We have funding for the purchase or construction of single houses for Travellers in certain circumstances and we provide a grant for a percentage of the cost to a Traveller family of purchasing a caravan for the first time. There is a range of means by which we try to assist local authorities in providing suitable accommodation for Travellers.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally took the Chair.

A great many issues have been covered and I do not intend to repeat them. On subhead B1, pertaining to social housing, a concern raised with me regularly is the number of social housing units that remain vacant for inordinate lengths of time. I am aware this is a day-to-day management issue for local authorities. However, does the Department have a full inventory of the numbers of vacant houses in stock per local authority? If so, how many are there?

What is the Department doing to keep pressure on the housing departments in each local authority to ensure the houses do not remain vacant for 12 to 36 months, which happens regularly?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We do have figures and they are part of the service indicators initiative in local government. Local authorities are required to provide figures annually on the number of vacant houses in stock. These figures are published.

What was the number for 2007 or 2006?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We do not have the 2007 figures at this stage. I will have to acquire the information for the Deputy. I will take a note of the question.

That would be great. In Fingal, a problem arises consistently regarding the turnaround of houses, for which some applicants must wait four or five years. The Secretary General stated that local authorities report annually. What does the Department do to exert pressure on local authorities to ensure these assets are used and that existing houses can be allocated quickly to those on the social housing list?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We maintain an active discussion with local authorities on their housing action plans. We do so regularly and meet them each year to discuss progress and priorities associated with the plans. This is the context in which we maintain a balance between ensuring the effective use of existing housing stock and meeting the need for new units.

We provide funding to local authorities to deal with housing conditions where houses have been vacant.

I have heard that can be an issue also because of the state of the houses in some instances.

I formally request the number of houses that were vacant in each of the years 2004, 2005 and 2006 so we will be able to determine whether there has been an improvement in the allocation of the houses to applicants. I realise the Secretary General does not have the figures to hand but I would very much appreciate them. Not only should we be focusing on building additional social housing, we should also be utilising the existing stock to the best of our ability through each local authority.

Could the information be supplied to the secretariat also?

We should discuss the matter.

Deputy Kenneally has covered many aspects of subhead B2, which concerns private housing grants. The reason for underspending is the inordinate delay in occupational therapists' procedures. We all deal with these issues. Will the Department officials state what we are doing to streamline the process? As other members have said, there are inordinate delays in many instances in respect of the disabled person's grant, which can be required for urgent alterations to houses. It can take four to 12 months to get an occupational therapist to produce the report, which is then submitted to the local authority. Practices vary from case to case.

We need to set out a procedure with timescales. Every local authority publishes a citizen's charter every year stating the services it provides to the citizens. This is fine but there should be an agreed and acceptable timeframe for doing so. The process is delayed very significantly on the occupational therapy side. Is the Department considering revising the process to expedite it for those in receipt of the disabled person's grant?

Deputy Bernard Allen took the Chair.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We will provide the information the Deputy asked for on vacant houses from 2004 to 2006. I would have to provide it with something of a health warning because houses may be vacant because of regeneration rather than because of their being untenanted.

I refer to figures for usable stock. I understand there are regeneration programmes in respect of which the units will not be used again.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

On the Deputy's question on occupational therapy and occupational therapists' reports, we are very anxious to ensure procedures are as effective and streamlined as possible. There may be delays in the provision of the reports. Applicants may engage a private sector occupational therapist.

At their own expense.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

In those cases the cost is recouped to the applicant, subject to a €200 limit per assessment. It is open to local authorities to retain the services of a private sector occupational therapist on either a fee per case basis or contract basis. The Department refunds 80% of the cost of each assessment to local authorities. Local authorities may enter into an arrangement with the local HSE office to avail of HSE occupational therapists in their area.

I appreciate that but is the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government happy with how the process works? I put it to Ms Tallon that it is not 100% happy with it but what changes, if any, are proposed to streamline the process?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We maintain an active interest in this area and policy is developing. Under the regulations that govern the housing adaptation grant we do not require applications to be referred for occupational therapy assessment. The local authority determines whether an assessment is required in each case and the approach varies from one authority to another. By and large, authorities refer the most serious cases.

Under the mobility aid grant scheme, which provides grants for older people with mobility problems, local authorities may now determine the eligibility on the basis of a general practitioner's letter. That change has been in effect since 1 November 2007.

Does the Department keep a record of the amount of unused development levies or surplus development levies that each local authority holds under the local government fund? Does it keep a close eye on how the levies are used and the bank balance of each local authority that receives the levies? I am concerned that they do not use the funds as promptly as they should, or do the job they should to provide facilities in the area where the levies are charged. Does the Department have figures per local authority on development levies year on year?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We keep an eye on development contributions and the capital balance position. It is a relatively new arrangement and the local government audit service also keeps an eye on the management of development contributions and the level of spend.

Is there documentation on this that we could examine in the future? I am concerned that while development levies are relatively new in developing counties, such as my local authority area, they run into millions of euro a year but do not get out to the community as quickly as they should. Does the Comptroller and Auditor General have a separate report on this?

Mr. John Purcell

I do not have audit responsibility for local authorities but having audit responsibility for the Department, I receive copies of all the local government auditors' reports. While this does not have any direct implications for the accountability of the Department, I can, if the committee so wishes, review those reports, which we do anyway, to see whether the local government auditors have stated reservations about, or referred to, development levies. I can include that in my annual report which will be published in the summer. That would give the committee an opportunity to consider some of those questions.

I would appreciate that. There is no question in my mind but that this would run to hundreds of millions of euro on the development levy side and we should at least be informed, or inform ourselves, about how it is used.

I welcome the Secretary General and her officials. At the end of the 2006 accounting year how many people were on the social housing list nationally, and how many are on it today? Like Deputy O'Brien, I represent Fingal and Dublin city. People have been on social housing lists in this area for between seven and 12 years. That seems like a complete failure of policy. What is the Department doing about that? The heart of my constituency is the north central region of Dublin city and the housing list there stands at 3,600 families. These people cannot buy homes under the affordable housing scheme or any other way. I will meet them on Saturday morning, as we all do, and will possibly again hear from somebody who has been on a list for between eight and ten years. Is there not still a fundamental problem with the work of the Department in that regard?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

A statutory housing needs assessment is under way.

I knew Ms Tallon would say that.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I cannot give the Deputy up-to-date figures until that needs assessment--

I have given Ms Tallon the up-to-date figure from our officials in Dublin city administration, Mr. John Tierney, for the north central district of the city. My colleagues from other constituencies would be pretty astonished at the length of time people must wait in larger urban districts. Does the fact that people are waiting so long not represent a total failure of policy?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It is important to take account of the fact that over 11,000 households were assisted through social housing measures in 2006. That is a significant overall capacity within the social housing programme.

Ms Tallon's Department fascinates us because when the full committee was here there was a century or more of experience in local government. We have seen it from the other side. I also want to comment on the famous contract. I accept that there are policy issues connected with the roll-out of affordable housing which are not Ms Tallon's responsibility. It is unacceptable that a social housing list works as it does in some counties and that people can be effectively left homeless for so long, sometimes in bad conditions.

Under the Votes at C1 to C9, what is the difference between C6, Kyoto credits, and C7, climate change funding? In 2006 approximately €22 million was spent under that heading. In 2008, the Minister for Finance put aside €270 million for it. In the future, there will be incredible sums under this subhead to buy carbon credits. Has the Department done any long-range planning to 2020? Friends of the Earth and the Labour Party's climate forum give frightening figures for the sums that may be needed up to 2020. Is that segment of the Vote destined to grow exponentially?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I gave the Deputy a figure for 2006 on the number of households which were addressed through social housing provision. In addition, 7,700 units of social housing commenced in 2006. We have an active housing programme as the Deputy knows. The nature of housing need is very varied. Much of our effort over the past several years has been to develop and expand the range of mechanisms which are necessary, desirable and appropriate to meet different types of housing needs at different stages of the life cycle.

Subhead C6 relates to the purchase of carbon credits and subhead C7 relates specifically to dues to international organisations relating to climate change commitments. There are international mechanisms, such as the climate change funding mechanism for developing counties, to which we make a contribution.

The figure in the national development plan for the purchase of carbon credits is aligned with the national climate change strategy and the achievement of our Kyoto target in 2012. It relates to the anticipated price of carbon and for the quantity the Government has determined to be necessary from a purchase point of view to meet our overall effort to achieve our Kyoto target in 2012. Deputies will be aware the Commission recently published proposals on climate change targets to 2020. We are beginning the process of intensive assessment of what may be involved from Ireland's point of view. It would not be good or appropriate for me to anticipate directions of policy--

Is the Secretary General concerned this would be a significant part of a Vote for the foreseeable decades?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The emphasis in climate policy would always be that action must be taken at domestic level.

Building was allowed to take place on flood plains. The Department's website contains maps of flood areas which are still very rudimentary.

Another provision in the accounts relates to inspection fees for structural guarantees for new houses. In north Dublin, and other parts of the country, which have experienced massive building activity in the past five years, major structural problems have emerged in many new houses. This relates to the presence of pyrites in high quantities in the foundations of homes which cause extensive structural damage. This became a cause célèbre in Quebec, Canada, and resulted in massive losses to both the state and federal Government. The state Government eventually fell over the crisis.

The problem is an unfolding drama in my constituency and it is alleged it is very serious in other parts of Leinster. The Department will be aware I asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, to take charge of the crisis. I have also raised it with the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance.

I believe the Comptroller and Auditor General will return to this issue in other reports. It is claimed the Department will be liable for large amounts to be repaid to householders because it failed to implement the building regulations. While I have not heard yet of the Department being sued by solicitors acting on behalf of householders, is there any contingency being put aside for such action? Has the Department any concerns that it did not invigilate or implement the building regulations?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We have not set aside a contingency for the implementation of the building regulations.

On the flood plains issue, is the Deputy referring to maps from the OPW? The OPW has responsibility for this issue.

In the UK one can open a website map of a county, say Gloucester, and it will have precise details of where not to build. It comes from the relevant agency dealing with flooding and climate change in the UK. We do not seem to have a similar facility.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The OPW has a very good website with flood maps. We have specific guidance--

I do not think it is good.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It is developing. We have development plan guidelines for local authorities which have explicitly addressed the issue of flooding and building on flood plains. I accept it will be a big issue in the future.

The national climate change strategy provides for the development of a climate adaptation strategy to be completed by the end of 2009. That will be the place in which the issue of flooding and development will need to be dealt with fairly explicitly and comprehensively.

It is an issue that the Department must address as financial problems will emerge.

In contrast to the UK, we seem to have a derisory and rudimentary evaluation of local authority performance. The committee received the departmental report on this. To me, it was pretty useless. Fingal County Council and South County Dublin Council can just tick the boxes, send it to us representatives claiming they are doing a great job. There is no independent assessment. Why can the local authority responsible for the city of Brussels for example, not invigilate that responsible for the city of Dublin and vice versa?

If Deputy Rabbitte, a distinguished former member of this committee, were here he would have described this report as "That beats Banagher". It is unbelievable. I do not believe Ms Tallon answered Deputy Kenneally's question. Members will be very familiar from experience with local authorities that the lowest tender does not work. In some places regeneration has to be undertaken because the work carried out by the lowest tender was rubbish. The expertise did not appear to exist, either within the Department or Dublin City Council, to make an evaluation. Is that issue being addressed? Why are we not running with the best possible tender and expertise, at the evaluation point of city and county councils and how do we do the tendering?

When did the Comptroller and Auditor General become aware of this mess? He has used very strong language in saying these people kept going in their "righteousness" and lost the country €60 million or €70 million. We could have done a great deal with that money, and he has used extremely critical terms. When was the Comptroller and Auditor General and this committee aware of this unfolding unbelievable financial disaster?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The Deputy has raised a number of issues as regards performance in local government. I am very interested in the comments he makes and would like to assure him and the committee that in my tenure as Secretary General, I will be looking very closely, intensively and regularly at performance issues in local government. Local government is a key partner of the Department. We deliver a very large volume of our activity and our spend through the local government system. We therefore have a very big stake in the efficiency and effectiveness of what is done within the local government system.

It is clear, when matters are looked at in the round, that local government is performing and stepping up to the plate in all sorts of areas. Local government has performed well within the control parameters of the overall number of people employed in this sector, which has remained steady and constant since 2002. However, local government has ramped up its performance very considerably in terms of the volumes of planning applications delivered, construction activity supported, infrastructure provided for, waste recycling undertaken and housing activity.

One could look at it another way, however, and say they have still contracted everything. We had the HSE in last week. We are still left with the same number of administrators there, a growing army, but no direct delivery. I am just asking where the independent report is. This report is not "independent" at all because it was compiled by somebody within the system. Has the Secretary General any plans to get people from outside the system to subject local authorities to proper performance evaluation?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Yes. In the last year we have radically changed the provisions made in 2001 local government legislation as regards the establishment of audit committees. A very limited provision was made in the 2001 legislation. That was amended and expanded dramatically in the 2006 legislation, so that the majority of local authorities have now appointed audit committees which must include independent members for external review purposes. That was one important change as far as local government is concerned.

The service indicators initiative, which we have had for a number of years, has been comprehensively reviewed and we will be extending and further tailoring a number of the service indicators, which are measured on an annual basis. It is not just a case of local authorities firing information into a composite compilation. The service indicators initiative is subject to independent verification. An independent quality assurance panel is in place. Members of the panel visit local authorities, assess the information provided and look at the situation on the ground. I am therefore satisfied that areas of independent rigour are being introduced. Of course, there is always room for more.

Is the Secretary General sure of the expertise in light of this contract? A senior local authority manager told me, as regards traffic matters, that he did not have staff of a requisite skill anymore to be able to evaluate construction within the county. It is somewhat reminiscent of this report as regards the other area.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

As far as possible, with the resources available to us, we have tried to ensure that local authorities maintain the quantity and calibre of staff necessary to deliver on critical frontline areas. That is very important as far as the Department is concerned because, as I have said, much of our capital investment is delivered through the local government system. However, we all have to work under the constraint of public sector number strictures and the budgets we have. Within those parameters we always try to prioritise as far as possible in terms of key areas of frontline endeavour. Beyond that, I do not see difficulty in the use of expert consultants in particular areas. I want to be sure, however, that we have the capacity to project manage internally the valuable expertise commissioned by the Department and local authorities for civil engineering, legal and all sorts of reasons.

As I explained earlier, a good deal of effort is put into, for example, the designation of project managers for civil engineering works and the payment, as part of schemes, for project management offices to manage large-scale civil engineering works as effectively as we can. The Department remains very involved in supervision and oversight in those cases.

As regards the Limerick main drainage case, we had a full-time project manager in place. There was also a steering group, which included the project manager, consultants, Limerick City Council and the Department — and that steering group met on a quarterly basis.

Mr. John Purcell

We have all known about this for at least four years. I have some records of a meeting here in early 2004 and it was discussed, briefly, at that stage. At that stage it was between conciliation and arbitration.

Just as the committee would not wish to get involved in an administrative process, in the same way I would not get involved at that stage. However, it was discussed, as was the possible outcome, at that meeting — and at successive meetings as well. I included it in my report for 2006 because it was at that stage that the very large amount of expenditure from central government through the Environment Vote was incurred. I thought that was the appropriate time to do it, now that the process was totally complete.

To be somewhat light-hearted about something the Secretary General said earlier, while I do not wish to diminish or downplay her point concerning the implementation of the building regulations, just for pub quiz purposes, my counterpart in South Korea has responsibility for overseeing the implementation of the building regulations there, because of the type of problems they had, with buildings falling down and so on. Perhaps that could be a recommendation of the committee.

Does the Comptroller and Auditor General have any concerns that he might be invigilating huge sums of money under this heading in the future?

Mr. John Purcell

I do not really know enough about it. I am aware, generally, of some problems I saw not only in the Deputy's constituency but elsewhere. One would read about the lack of standards in the completion of buildings and the repercussions. Certain remedial works are also being carried out at huge expense. Where they fall on the State, I would clearly have an interest in seeing how that risk is being managed.

Following on from the last point, the Secretary General stated earlier that much greater productivity levels are being achieved by local authority staff — she cited the planning departments, for example. I would put the opposite point to her, namely, that staff in the planning departments of local authorities are so overstretched due to the lack of staff that much of the investigation and oversight that should be taking place in respect of building standards is not taking place. We are all very conscious, particularly in the Dublin area, that we are seeing practically on a daily basis the conditions of planning permissions being flouted. It is virtually impossible to get a planning enforcement officer to take any kind of early action in respect of such matters. It is all very well to say the staff numbers have been kept at the level of five years ago but there is a price to be paid for doing that, particularly in respect of the boom in the housing industry in recent years. I would be concerned that we will pay a price for this in the future.

I want to ask the Secretary General about the Private Residential Tenancies Board. I am concerned that the majority of PRTB staff are temporary, which would not indicate that any great importance is attached to this agency. When will the Department be in a position to ensure that this body is adequately staffed with permanent staff?

Receipts from fees amounted to over €6 million last year, of which the bulk goes to the local authorities to pay field staff. Is this level of funding adequate to meet the demand for field staff to follow up on cases?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

With regard to the PRTB, I am conscious of the issue raised by the Deputy in terms of the numbers of agency and permanent staff. It is an issue we are actively reviewing. We have proposals, in discussion with the Department of Finance, with regard to staffing in a number of our agencies, including the PRTB.

Does the Secretary General expect to be able to do anything in this regard this year?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It is always invidious to make promises and then find I cannot deliver but I would certainly hope that we will be able to something in that area this year. I might ask our colleagues from the PRTB to respond to the Deputy on the issue of funding for field staff.

Ms Kathryn Ward

Five sevenths of the fees we receive go to the local government fund to deal with the housing standards and rent book regulations which the local authorities oversee. The other two sevenths are part and parcel of the administrative fees of the PRTB.

I would not be familiar with all of the figures with regard to the investigations that are carried out by local authorities.

I would have thought it was a departmental issue whether that funding covers the cost of local authority field workers.

Ms Kathryn Ward

With regard to local authorities and any complaints or disputes in regard to standards, the local authorities have been excellent in carrying out the inspections and coming back to the PRTB with the appropriate reports.

Fine. Some 202,000 tenancies are registered with the PRTB at present. Has Ms Ward any idea what percentage of the total number of tenancies this represents?

Ms Kathryn Ward

That represents 340,000 tenants and 92,000--

My question is in regard to the estimated total number of tenancies in the country. Does the PRTB know what percentage it has captured at this point?

Ms Kathryn Ward

We do not know that because we do not know the overall number of tenancies in the country, which has been an issue all along.

Has there been any attempt to match, for example, the numbers registered with the number of rental properties that show up in the census?

Ms Kathryn Ward

We have done some work on that. The figures were reasonably in line. The latest census figures show there were 145,000 private rented tenants plus 50,000 voluntary housing tenants. With our figures suggesting there are in excess of 202,000 tenancies, this represents 92,000 landlords and 340,000 tenants. We are aware of a further 6,000 landlords who are not registered — this applies to Deputy Curran's earlier question. This information has come in as a result of information given to us by local authorities, various Deputies and the general public.

Ms Ward is referring to the 6,000 landlords the PRTB cannot trace.

Ms Kathryn Ward

In our investigations, we have ruled out 1,000 for whom we know there is no requirement to register as they would not come under the private rental sector. As a result of the ongoing enforcement activity we have undertaken with regard to landlords, 1,500 tenancies were subsequently registered.

Based on the census figures, the figure is nearer to 300,000. There is a considerable gap.

Ms Kathryn Ward

There is a considerable gap but one would look at it from the positive side. Compared with the numbers local authorities may have registered before the PRTB came into being, far greater numbers are now registered, which is certainly an improvement. We are getting there, which is a positive sign.

I accept that. On the issue of trying to locate landlords who are reported to the PRTB where there might be a problem or a case of non-registration, what is the situation in respect of the requirement of landlords to register their properties? Is there an issue with regard to landlords in the Dublin area not being required to register ownership with the Land Registry rather than registering with the PRTB? I am not sure that anyone present can answer this question but I would welcome information on it if it can be obtained. If I buy a house, do I need to register that ownership with the Land Registry? It is my understanding there is a specific problem in the Dublin area where there is no legal requirement to register. I know we will be coming back to this issue and it would be helpful if we could obtain that information.

I also have a question on that issue. For example, a house may be the subject of anti-social behaviour by tenants and one might want to obtain the name of the landlord to enforce some controls on behaviour. If one contacts the PRTB, one is told to go back to the local authority but the local authority will say it is a matter for the PRTB. Whose responsibility is it to identify the landlord of a private rented dwelling?

Ms Kathryn Ward

If it is a private rented dwelling and somebody is being affected by the tenants of that dwelling, the people affected can write to the PRTB and, if the tenancy is registered, request information on the landlord. In order to do that, they would have to verify that they had made some effort because the legislation requires this. If an individual can provide us with evidence of the difficulties being experienced and that it is being caused by private tenants, we can give that information to that individual. Moreover, that individual, as a third party, could take a case to the PRTB in regard to the behaviour of the tenants in question.

As a public representative, how can I obtain information on behalf of a constituent who lives adjacent to a rented house where there is a problem with the tenants? Can I, in those circumstances, ask the PRTB for the name of the landlord?

Ms Kathryn Ward

No, under data protection law, we cannot provide that information. The legislation provides that we can offer information to a party affected in some way by the behaviour of tenants. However, we can only do so where the applicant has satisfied the board that he or she has made every conceivable effort either to discuss the issues with the tenants with a view to coming to some type of agreement or to locate and seek co-operation from the landlord. That is a requirement under the legislation. If those conditions are met, we are entitled to provide the information to the affected party, though not necessarily to a representative.

In those circumstances, one can check whether the property is registered on the PRTB website. If it is, one can refer the matter to the local authority to follow up.

My question relates to how one might discover the identity of the landlord.

The local authority will be aware of the landlord's identity and can follow up the complaint.

The PRTB achieved its first successful prosecution in December. How many prosecutions are pending?

Ms Carmel Diskin

We could be working on up to 40 cases at a time. However, because we must go through the courts system, it is a slow process. I have several cases lined up for referral to our solicitors. The latter gives the persons in question one final chance by issuing a 14-day notice. We have found that 90% of landlords who received that notice registered. That process, therefore, is successful and it is the reason we only had one prosecution from the first batch of cases we referred to our solicitors.

I understand the PRTB is not required, under the legislation, to share information with the Revenue. Is it precluded from doing so?

Ms Carmel Diskin

The legislation states that we have an obligation to provide details of a one-to-one case if the Revenue Commissioners can supply the PPS number. We have obliged on each occasion that such information was requested. However, the legislation prevents us from handing over our records to the Revenue Commissioners.

I presume the Revenue Commissioners could use the PRTB's website.

Ms Carmel Diskin

Yes.

It is quite telling that inquiries were made in respect of fewer than ten persons. We will raise this issue with the Revenue Commissioners.

Ms Carmel Diskin

There were fewer than ten inquiries but each inquiry may relate to more than one individual.

When I asked Ms Tallon about PPS numbers in regard to the rental assistance scheme, she said that landlords involved in the scheme must be tax-compliant. My question should have been whether the Department seeks evidence that they are tax-compliant. In other words, does the Department seek the PPS numbers?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We seek a tax clearance certificate.

Does the Department look for a PPS number so that it can be passed on to the Revenue Commissioners to claim on the income?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We look for the tax clearance certificate. I am not certain about this but I understand it includes the PPS number.

Does Ms Tallon have an answer to my question on the adequacy of the fees to cover the costs of field workers?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I do not have detailed information on that issue.

That is fine. Ms Tallon might send it to us at a later date.

In the last three years, how have the Department and the local authorities performed in regard to targets for social and affordable housing?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

As I mentioned earlier, we assisted 11,249 households through social housing measure in 2006. The number assisted through affordable housing measures in 2006--

I apologise for interrupting. My question is whether, first, the Department set targets in each of the last three years in both these areas and, second, how it performed against those targets.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We have targets for social housing and they are largely being met. We also have targets for affordable housing and those targets were increased under Towards 2016. These amended targets are challenging. We did not quite meet them in 2007 but we are acting to ramp up performance under the various affordable housing initiatives so that they will be delivered in the three-year period of Towards 2016. I cannot definitively say that we achieved everything in 2007 that we hoped to achieve.

Does the Secretary General accept there is a problem in respect of large housing developments where local authorities do not reach agreement with developers in sufficient time on the exact number of affordable units to be provided? In addition, the opt-out clause whereby developers can pay money in lieu or provide affordable housing elsewhere means there is a serious delay in delivering these units.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We have guidance under Part V of the planning and development legislation to encourage the delivery of units as quickly as possible. Will the Deputy repeat her question?

Does the Secretary General agree there is a problem with the way the system works in that developers do not have to agree the final number of affordable units until late in the development and that they can choose to buy their way out of their obligations? Is this not the reason the targets are not being met?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

As I said earlier, it is not our intention to do other than accept units. We do not want a situation where--

It is not so much local authorities as developers which are being encouraged not to meet the 20% figure by allowing an opt-out for them. While I accept this is a policy matter, I simply make the point.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Only 15% of the take under Part V is in the form of money. The emphasis — to a figure of 85% — continues to be on the delivery of units and land.

It is not satisfactory to make such provision by way of the acquisition of land. Moreover, the figure of 15% is significant, given the demand for housing in recent years.

I refer to the management of the social housing programme. I am concerned that Dublin City Council has stated it will not purchase any houses this year. It has stated it used up all of its allocation last year and that the houses bought then will cover both years. How can such a situation arise, whereby a reasonable number of units were bought last year but none will be bought this year? Did the Department have a role in this or did the city council decide to arrange its housing programme in this manner?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It must take a balanced position overall. I am somewhat surprised by the Deputy's comments. I was not aware that Dublin City Council had stated it would not purchase any houses in 2008. We will engage with it, as we do in respect of its housing action programme, to ascertain what the balance may be. We have given an indicative allocation to the council for 2008. I undertake that my colleagues with responsibility for housing will follow up on the matter to ascertain what the balance of delivery is within the indicative allocation we have provided.

I appreciate that. Given the state of the market, it would make sense for local authorities to buy properties. There are many bargains to be had and it is difficult to understand the reason the city council would be precluded from buying properties this year.

I agree on the issue raised by Deputy O'Brien in respect of vacant properties. Some 20% of local authority properties in my constituency lie vacant. This is a scandal, given the length of the housing waiting lists. While there have been serious problems in recent years in hiring contractors to carry out the work, there must be a better way of doing it. The costs associated with boarding up and providing security for such properties are considerable. Moreover, the cost of returning such properties to use is much higher than if the work was done at an earlier stage. While I refer to the financial cost, obviously there also are costs in respect of those waiting on the various housing lists. I urge the Secretary General to draw up a strategy with the local authorities to bring vacant units into use at a much earlier stage.

I wish to ask a number of questions. Under the environment fund, expenditure under the heading of local authority enforcement initiatives fell by 12% between 2005 and 2006. Given the emphasis placed on enforcement and standards, I found it surprising that spending would fall. I refer to water quality. The Department only spent €79,000 on grant aid towards various initiatives. Why was such a small amount spent when there is such emphasis on water quality? Although it has been reiterated recently that water quality is deteriorating, only a sum of €79,000 was spent.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Most of our expenditure on water quality occurs through the water services capital programme. That is where the major expenditure is undertaken to achieve compliance with the urban wastewater directive and drinking water directive, as well as to prepare for the schemes necessary under the water framework directive. The expenditure to which the Chairman refers is related to administration of river basin districts under the water framework directive, rather than capital investment. However, I am unsure of the precise subhead to which the Chairman refers.

This item appears in note 19 to the environment fund's income and expenditure account which refers to expenditure of €78,974. There is a sum of €42,000 in respect of protection and improvement of water quality.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

While I will revert to the Chairman on this subject, it probably is related to the water framework directive. It certainly is not related to the water services programme, in which the main investment in water quality is concentrated.

It is related to blue flag schemes, water quality research, consultancies and protection and improvement of water quality.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I will revert to the Chairman with details on note 19.

Very well. My last question pertains to motor tax. In view of the announcements made recently in the budget regarding motor tax and the changes in the regime, has the Department undertaken any contingency plan regarding income arising from the changes? Will income be increased or reduced?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The income from motor tax is a very important part of the overall local government fund. In 2006 it was €878 million and in 2007, approximately €955 million. We considered very closely the balance of objectives in respect of motor tax. Clearly, a policy decision was made on the rebalancing of motor tax for environmental reasons. Equally, however, there is a strong need for motor tax income as a contribution to the local government fund. In addition to the rebalancing from 1 July, as the Chairman is aware, motor tax rates were increased from 1 February. Consequently, we are confident, all else being equal in the economy, that revenue from motor tax can be maintained for local government fund purposes.

Mr. John Purcell

For the information of the committee, I will return to the Private Residential Tenancies Board, PRTB. Deputy Shortall asked whether the resources were available or whether five sevenths of the levies and fees were being given to local authorities to carry out their functions. The position, certainly for 2005 and 2006, was that the PRTB was awash with money and it had not given out much of that money to the local authorities. My office is looking into whether there was a failure to put in place a scheme within the local authorities to do the job they were intended to do as a result of the establishment of the PRTB. The position may well have improved in 2007, the period at which we are looking. If it has not improved, I suspect we will be commenting on this issue. In any case, it is likely that the PRTB will appear before the committee later this year in its own right because I intend to issue a qualified audit report on its 2004 and 2005 accounts. They are being finalised at the moment. As a result of that, it is inevitable that the chief executive officer, who was unable to be here today, will appear before the committee in due course.

I thank Mr. Purcell. We have finished the examination. I thank all those who attended for giving such clear answers most of the time to some of the questions. As they are aware, we are not happy with certain aspects which we will pursue. I thank all those who attended for their responses.

It is proposed that the committee note Vote 25, the environment fund 2006 and the local government fund 2006. Is that agreed? Agreed. It is proposed that chapter 6.1 — contract termination costs on the Limerick drainage scheme — not be disposed of today. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I ask the Department to forward to the committee as soon as possible all the papers associated with matters relating to that report, including the conciliator's report, the arbitrator's report, the report of the former Secretary General of the Department of Finance and court papers. I thank the staff of the committee for their ongoing hard work and Mr. Purcell and his staff for all their support.

The witnesses withdrew.

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