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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 22 Sep 2011

Chapter 17 - Impact of Losses

Ms Josephine Feehily(Chairman, Office of the Revenue Commissioners) called and examined.

Before we begin, I remind members and witnesses to turn off their mobile phones because they interfere with the transmission of the meeting. I wish to advise witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the House nor an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are reminded of the provision in Standing Order 158 that the committee shall also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

I welcome Ms Josephine Feehily, chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, and ask her to introduce her officials.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Thank you, Chairman. With me is Mr. Niall Cody, who is the head of our planning division, Mr. Gerry Harrahill, collector general, Mr. Paddy O'Shaughnessy, who is our liaison with the Comptroller and Auditor General's office and the committee, Mr. Paddy Molloy, who is head of our tax statistics branch, Mr. Tom Dowling, who is the vote manager, and Ms Michelle Carroll, press officer.

I ask the representatives of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to introduce themselves.

Mr. Dermot Quigley

I am Dermot Quigley, principal officer in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. Beside me is Mr. John Day from the Department of Finance.

I ask Mr. Buckley, the Comptroller and Auditor General, to introduce the Vote. The full text of chapters 12 to 18, inclusive, of the 2009 report and chapters 11 to 16 of the 2010 report can be found in the Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General at www.audgen.gov.ie.

Mr. John Buckley

Chairman, this session deals with the accounts of the Revenue for the years 2009 and 2010 as well as a set of related chapters contained in my annual reports for those two years. Because of the volume of material, I will confine my comments mostly to 2010. In 2007, the net revenue of the State was €47.3 billion. It has fallen each year since then, and the revenue collected by the State in 2010 was €31.8 billion. Revenue as a proportion of national output, as measured by GDP, has also fallen. It stood at 21% in 2010 compared with 26% in 2006. The Office of the Revenue Commissioners says that the fall is mainly attributable to the fact that the part of GDP that has diminished relates to investment or, more particularly, property and construction. These sectors have traditionally yielded relatively higher levels of tax, so the reduction in activity in them has disproportionately impacted on the tax take. In this respect, chapter 12 confirms that, in volume terms, the major reductions in revenue occurred in the sectors that have been hardest hit by the economic downturn, which are property, construction, wholesale and retail.

Repayments of tax when expressed as a proportion of collection increased from 15% in 2005 to 20% in 2009. Repayment levels have begun to stabilise in 2010, although they remain much higher than before the downturn in the case of both corporation tax and capital gains tax. Overall, 17% of the gross yield was repaid in 2010 compared with 20% in the previous year.

The 2009 report identified instances of duplicate repayments due to taxpayers making claims for relief under both the income tax and PAYE systems. We were concerned that our computer-based scans only extended to cases where the repayments were identical, leaving open the likelihood that there were other instances where credits had been offset against liabilities. The Office of the Revenue Commissioners undertook to review the matter and I note that it quantified the amounts in its follow-up to the committee.

From a general perspective, the Office of the Revenue Commissioners faces three main challenges: to ensure the full tax is declared by those taxpayers who are within the system, to collect the debt arising out of assessed liabilities and to identify persons who have not registered. I will discuss each of those in turn.

On the completeness of declarations by taxpayers, random audits show that the level of under-declaration is approaching 2% of the value of taxes collectable in a particular year. However, when account is taken of all undeclared tax surfaced by these audits, each audited taxpayer ends up with an additional liability equivalent to 4% of the declared annual liability. The pattern varies by tax head and by sector. The greatest financial effect is in the area of VAT, which accounted for 57% of the additional yield from random audits. The greatest rate of non-compliance is in income tax, where the total additional liability was of the order of 22%. The sector with the largest non-compliance rate was the hotel and restaurant sector. We concluded that the Revenue Commissioners could make more use of the random audit programme results to identify key sectoral and tax head risks as well as to derive a preliminary indication of the audit gap, which is the extent to which the tax that is undeclared by registered taxpayers would be identified if all cases were audited.

With regard to collection of assessed debt, approximately €300 million was written off in 2010 and €2 billion was uncollected at the end of March 2011. One third of this was under appeal, one fifth was under enforcement and payment agreements were in place for 6% of the debt. A total of 54% of the debt relates to taxpayers with small to medium sized tax liabilities who pay between €6,000 and €300,000 annually, while 32% relates to taxpayers who pay less than €6,000. Overall, approximately two thirds of all debt was more than three years old. Revenue set a target to reduce the level of uncontested debt not being managed under instalment agreements or by enforcement by 25% in 2010; its achievement in this regard was to reduce it by 7%.

Revenue's principal compliance indicator is a composite measure based on both filing and payment compliance. It is based on counting cases that have filed or paid in each tier. I should mention that Revenue splits the tax paying population by case size into five tiers. We suggested that its performance measurement could be improved by capturing the extent and period of credit taken by taxpayers and classes of taxpayers.

When the current indicator is disaggregated, payment compliance in general lags performance as measured by the composite indicator by approximately 2%. The gap is largest in the third and fourth tiers. When taken in conjunction with the pattern for debt outstanding, it seems to suggest a need for Revenue interventions aimed at that category of taxpayer.

With regard to unregistered taxpayers and the shadow economy, Ireland's shadow economy is put at approximately 13%. Revenue has outlined the range of measures it takes to identify cases not on record and the Accounting Officer will no doubt elaborate on this in the course of the meeting.

Chapter 15 of the 2010 report looked at what is called the commonality programme. The general idea in this area is to identify, link and, if appropriate, pursue cases where a particular business has links to other businesses with significant tax debt or a history of non-compliance or has links to a failed business where the protection of limited liability might have been abused. The audit in this area found there was no evidence of checks in 18% of cases where checks should have occurred, the full set of relationships were not identified in 24% of the cases checked and some cases appropriate for referral for pursuit were not referred. Overall, we concluded that Revenue needs to improve its management in this area and, at the same time, it needs to address the referral of inappropriate cases to the pursuit units, which is clogging up the system.

Looking at Revenue's compliance measures, a number of trends emerge. In the large cases division the number of audits completed has decreased since 2007 and the yield has also decreased. In other Revenue districts, there has been a 17% decrease in audit activity in districts since 2007. However, because the remaining audits are largely targeted, there has been an increase in audit yield of approximately 19% since 2007. Revenue will need to keep these trends under review. There is no doubt that focusing available resources on the riskiest cases is efficient in terms of yield. However, there is also a need to consider the overall systemic risks in determining the extent and focus of tax audits.

The 2009 report examined Revenue's arrangements to counteract smuggling in the case of tobacco, which is estimated to cost the State €200 million a year in lost excise. We suggested that Revenue should attempt to estimate the level of illicit tobacco importation on an ongoing basis, develop a strategy within which to pursue defined outcomes designed to reduce or contain the problem and compare its detection rate with that of other jurisdictions.

Losses that have built up during the recession will impact on future revenue. Most of this over-hang impacts on corporation tax. Losses that were used in the corporation tax area in the latest period are estimated to have reduced the tax take by approximately €2.5 billion. Unsurprisingly, the overhang of losses relates predominantly to the banking sector. Revenue was not in a position to estimate the likely extent of future loss utilisation by firms in the sector. However, it considers it unlikely that the full €50 billion of the accumulated losses that existed when the 2009 computations were completed will be utilised. The Accounting Officer will be in a position to update the committee on all of these matters.

I ask Ms Feehily for her opening statement.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I thank the Chairman. I will be brief. I understand from contacts with the secretariat that the committee wants to focus on the shadow economy as a theme today. It is a subject of considerable interest to us because it is about tax evasion.

From Revenue's point of view, the term "shadow economy risks" as commonly used, encompasses practically every Revenue chapter in the Comptroller and Auditor General reports for 2009 and 2010. It includes people who do not pay or businesses which underdeclare on their pay and file return, which are dealt with in the collection and debt management chapters; the relatively small number of people totally outside the system, who were mentioned by the Comptroller and Auditor General; and people who evade tax by not declaring part of their income or by suppressing profits to which the chapters on Revenue's compliance interventions, including audits, special investigations and prosecutions are relevant. Manipulators of losses and phoenix businesses are also likely to prefer to operate in the shadows; and tobacco smuggling, by definition, takes place in the shadow economy.

In Revenue we see the biggest risks arising in situations where individuals or businesses have the capacity to operate with cash, and it is recognised that these risks grow in times of recession as people look for ways to replace lost income or profits. Revenue adopts a risk-based approach to ensure that we focus our attention and resources appropriately. The Comptroller and Auditor General already referred to this. We have significant information from third-party sources and our own sources to help us decide where the risky cases are. We know about the purchase of luxury cars and houses; we get details of interest paid by banks and credit unions; suspicious transaction reports; and from this year all payments made by all public bodies will be reported to us.

Revenue works with other agencies in tackling this problem. Joint investigation units have been operating between Revenue and the Department of Social Protection since the 1990s and we have more than doubled the numbers of our officers in these units. We chair the hidden economy monitoring group, which has been in place for many years. It brings together stakeholders in business, trade unions and Government to exchange views on measures to help deal with shadow economy risks.

In 2010 we placed great emphasis on tackling shadow economy risks by a combination of risk analysis, intelligence collation, assurance checks and outdoor operations including audits. Activities ranged from projects targeting risky sectors such as hospitality, building sites and white collar professionals to "streetscapes" where we visit every business in a particular street or small town.

This emphasis is continuing throughout 2011. This year, we selected ten specific sectors on which to focus where the capacity to operate on a cash basis exists, and already on the business side we have made more than 4,700 cold calls or site visits, and almost 3,200 assurance checks. We also completed more than 1,200 audits in the construction sector with a combined yield of €37 million. In the wholesale, retail, restaurant and pub trades combined we have closed 1,400 audits with a yield of €50 million. On the PAYE side we selected more than 21,000 cases for intervention which yielded more than €13 million and disallowed credits valued at almost €25 million. Quite apart from the loss to Exchequer, businesses which do not pay their taxes put compliant competitors at a disadvantage, which is a responsibility we take seriously.

I would like to refer briefly to the impact of the economic environment. As one would expect, tax yield is down; tax debt is high, but 2010 is lower than 2009; and businesses which want to be compliant but have liquidity problems have real difficulty accessing funds to pay us. In these times, it is important that Revenue does not forget its responsibilities on the service side including making repayments quickly and working with viable businesses which need time to pay.

I thank Ms Feehily and call Deputy Simon Harris.

I thank Ms Feehily for her opening statement and for the fact she kept it brief because the idea is to have questions and answers during the meeting, and we have been subjected to extremely long presentations in the past.

Everyone in the room is all too aware of the economic situation in which we find ourselves. However, when one reads the Comptroller and Auditor General's reports for 2009 and 2010 the figures add starkness to the situation. Various tax receipts have dropped considerably, with construction reduced by €2.8 billion between 2007 and 2010, retail reduced by €2.7 billion, real estate reduced by €2.1 billion and manufacturing reduced by €1.4 billion. This reduction in revenue increases the dependency of the committee and the taxpayer on Ms Feehily's organisation to increase the level of tax compliance.

I will hone in on four issues. First, Ms Feehily touched on the question of the shadow economy, in particular illegal cigarettes and diesel laundering. Second, the use of the data available to Revenue to analyse the problem of unpaid tax or errors in the system, duplicated payments and so on. Third, the penalties and actions Revenue is pursuing against people who do not pay their taxes. The phenomenon of phoenix businesses, which close down and re-open the next month under slightly different names, was referenced. Fourth, the carrying forward of losses, in particular by banks and businesses in the financial sector, and how Revenue is planning for this.

While diesel laundering is a well known phenomenon, I will focus on the tobacco trade in the shadow economy. Revenue's 2009 survey estimated that approximately 20% of cigarettes consumed were untaxed.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Untaxed in Ireland. I apologise for interrupting.

In stark terms, this represents a loss of approximately €200 million to the Irish taxpayer. We all agree this is a conservative estimate, given detection levels. The 2009 and 2010 reports of the Comptroller and Auditor General accept that Revenue was employing a number of measures, but they criticised the lack of performance-related outputs. How will Revenue act upon this recommendation?

Like many Oireachtas Members, I recently received a briefing from Retailers Against Smuggling, RAS, which praised the work done by Revenue and the Customs and Excise service. However, it was concerned that there were only two scanners available at Irish ports to try to detect consignments of smuggled cigarettes. Are there plans for additional scanners and are we linking in with European funds that are available for this?

When officials from the Department of Social Protection attended our meeting last week, we discussed social welfare fraud and the need to improve the link-up between State agencies. The Revenue publishes a quarterly defaulters list of people who have been convicted of selling or smuggling illegal cigarettes, but this list is not automatically forwarded to the Department of Social Protection. Could this be done to allow the issues of cigarette smuggling and selling that are being encountered by Revenue to be cross-checked with the Department?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I thank the Deputy and apologise for interrupting. I was concentrating on his remarks. Regarding his final question, if we do not, we will. It is as simple as that. We have a strong relationship with the Department of Social Protection and exchange a great deal of information with it. We have full legal arrangements in place for the exchange of information. We have a high-level group at MAC level which Mr. Cody attends. I have also attended it. If we do not already do what the Deputy suggests, we will.

My understanding is that Revenue does not.

Ms Josephine Feehily

That was the easy question. It is important to put the tobacco discussion into context before we discuss measures. Tobacco is a perfectly legal product to have and consume regardless of what we might believe about its health effects. The Exchequer accrues approximately €2.5 billion in excise and VAT on tobacco.

It is perfectly legal to buy cigarettes, the duty on which is paid in another country, and bring them to Ireland for personal use. According to our survey's measures, 20% of tobacco consumed in Ireland is untaxed in Ireland. This figure is composed of 6% of tobacco taxed in another country, which is legal, and 14% that is either counterfeit or contraband. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report referred to a survey that has since been repeated. It is conducted independently and co-funded by Revenue and the Office of Tobacco Control. The measures in the second survey are the same. One could view this as meaning that the problem has at least been contained.

The private sector has conducted surveys using different methodologies. This shows the danger of measures. With the private sector's measures, the figure is higher but there has been a reduction. The private sector considers that we have made serious progress, in that we have reduced the level of Irish untaxed cigarettes. I am not sure this is a reasonable conclusion. It could simply be that people are taking fewer foreign holidays and bringing back fewer perfectly legal cigarettes or that fewer immigrants are bringing their cigarettes with them.

In light of the number of measures, it is difficult to isolate cause and effect. We have measured the gap twice with the Office of Tobacco Control and know its size, but how much of it is amenable to an intervention by Revenue and how much of it is an economic reality? Irish cigarette prices are the highest in the EU. Premium cigarettes cost €8.60. One can buy them for half that price without going far or a quarter of that price by going a little bit further and bringing them back. Norway is the only country in the European Economic Area, EEA, where cigarettes are more expensive.

We will continue our surveys. A trend over time is the best output from these measures. One could argue forever about methodologies, but the same surveys using the same methodologies will give one a trend over time. On this measure, we are containing the problem. This is the best we will ever do. The profits to be made by criminal elements from selling cigarettes are significant. People are keen to get a bargain in this recession. In this type of an environment, it is difficult for us to commit to doing much more than containing the problem.

RAS is working with us. We are concerned about penetration into the retail sector, which is what bothers RAS. We have asked it to give us what intelligence it can to help us target our interventions in certain towns, streets, areas etc. We have asked the tobacco manufacturers to share with us what intelligence they have, as they claim that they can see patterns of reduced purchases. We can use their intelligence to help us target our inland interventions.

Large-scale smuggling, container smuggling in particular, comes through the ports primarily. This is an international criminal problem. We work closely with the European Anti-Fraud Office, OLAF, which regards us as one of the better countries, having regard to our range of problems. Our hit rate is regarded as very good.

According to the performance measurement, the problem is being contained.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I would love to tell the Deputy that we could reduce the figure, but consider the profits that are to be made and the fact that people smoke and have less disposable income. Containing the problem and trying to prevent its penetration into the retail trade are two of our performance measures. We will require the help of business with the latter issue. We have developed and published a strategy. We are doing a great deal of work on the ground, such as blitzes in markets. When we go to the streetscapes to which I referred and visit businesses, we check to determine whether the cigarettes they are selling are counterfeit.

The Deputy's final point was on our two scanners. I would need to check in the case of the first scanner, but we availed of EU funds for the second one. The EU paid approximately half of the cost. In the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, he drew attention to our hit rates with the scanners. Another big scanner would not be the solution to the problem, although this is not to say that we will not get one or, if possible, access European funds if we believe it will help. Each week, 10,000 containers come through Dublin Port. They cannot all be scanned without destroying the functionality of the port and legitimate trade. One decides what to scan based on intelligence. This is why the European network is important. The scanning is to do with verifying intelligence. The scanner ensures we do not have to strip out every container, thus wasting everyone's time. If we have intelligence, we scan a container rather than strip it out. The container is then sent to the customs house in the port to be stripped out. We are currently tendering for a smaller scanner, which we will probably use in the airports.

This is possibly the most serious area of concern identified in both of the Comptroller and Auditor General's reports. I am most disappointed at the relevant inaction of Revenue in terms of co-ordinating the information and data available to it. It is evident from the Comptroller and Auditor General's report that the data which Revenue has, to which he had access, enabled him to analyse this and provide us with a much greater breakdown of tax heads in terms of compliance and so on. This is work which Revenue is not currently undertaking. I will give two examples in this regard.

Perhaps Ms Feehily could provide the committee with an update in regard to IT in terms of ensuring one section of Revenue is talking to the other. The report highlights the issue of duplicate repayments, which have been estimated by Revenue to amount to approximately €1 million per annum. This involves people claiming tax reliefs under two tax heads. The C&AG's report is quite strong on this and outlines the need for evidenced based estimation methods. Ms Feehily might update us on where Revenue is at in that regard.

Another element is Revenue's random audit programme. The Comptroller and Auditor General referred in his remarks today to Revenue subjecting 400 taxpayers each year to a full audit. What Revenue does with the data it collects in that regard seems slightly questionable. It has been suggested that this data needs to be used to assist Revenue in its efforts to form its strategy on tax compliance in terms of identifying the sectors where the greatest amounts of tax compliance is at risk and highlighting incidences of non-compliance by tax head. These are useful things that should be done. Perhaps Ms Feehily will say why Revenue is not doing this and what plans it has to do it.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I am not quite sure I understood the point made by the Deputy at the beginning of his contribution on sections of Revenue not talking to each other and inaction in relation to data.

My point relates to duplicate repayments. According to Revenue, €1 million per annum is being overpaid because people are claiming relief under two different tax heads.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I thank the Deputy for clarifying his question. Duplicate repayments occur in a narrow set of circumstances. It happens when a person who receives a repayment under PAYE subsequently registers for income tax and does not put that on their income tax return. In that sense, it is quite a narrow set of circumstances. The Deputy is correct that we were not checking that and that it was spotted by the Comptroller and Auditor General. We have followed up on that and now check it every year. We have done the sums and the figure concerned is now less than €800,000. At the time of the C&AG's report we estimated duplicate repayments at approximately €1 million. All cases have been examined and the current figure is €860,000. I believe that figure is included in the update I forwarded to the committee. We are approaching all of the people concerned and are recovering the money. We now run that programme every year. There are approximately 1,100 cases this year. It is money paid out in a niche set of circumstances.

The C&AG outlined two other sets of circumstances in that chapter, one of which is share options. There is little we could have done to avoid that. In this regard, the tax was put on record the day after or before the repayment issued. It was a timing issue. There was little we could have done to avoid it. Again, it is niche thing; there are few people with share options. The tax return that a person makes should actually pick that up. However, we are aware of it now and will watch for it. The third set of circumstances related to the making of a repayment to a person in respect of VRT where the person owed us money under another tax head. We did not at the time have a legal base to offset one against the other. We do now. Currently, all taxes can be offset against each other. That has been an incremental process, which has not been without its opposition from business. It is hoped that we have resolved the repayment problem. The ideal situation would be that repayments between income tax and PAYE would pop up automatically. However, this happens in respect of only a small number of cases and as development of IT in this regard would be extensive, we are running the programmes together.

On the random audit side, it is not that we do not undertake the type of analysis of which the Deputy speaks. It is perhaps that we do not do it in the same way as does the Comptroller and Auditor General. The results of the random audit programme are analysed and used to help us improve and refine the rules in our risk analysis system. The risk analysis system, the results of which have been referred to by the Comptroller and Auditor General, shows that when used properly we get a 70% hit rate from our targeted audits as opposed to the inverse with the random audits in respect of which we are getting a 30% hit rate. If one takes away small amounts from the random programme, 80% owe us nothing or almost nothing. The random audit programme teaches us and we turn that into a rule that goes into the risk analysis system.

On the analysis by sector, as carried out by the Comptroller and Auditor General, we do it differently. We have never produced it in this form but do analyse all results of the random audit programme.

There are different levels of tax evasion. There are people who are evading through perhaps lack of education and then there are those people who set out to evade tax. Revenue pursued 150 cases of serious tax evasion in 2010, seven of which have been finalised in court and seven others have been dropped. How much tax is owed in these 150 serious cases? Is Revenue experiencing a resource or evidential issue in actually finalising these cases? We are talking in this regard about serious tax evaders in this country at a time when every million we can find is a huge help. Ms Feehily referred in her opening statement to payment plans for businesses, in particular small businesses that want and are trying to be compliant but need some breathing space in terms of a payment plan. Perhaps she will update us on how Revenue is interacting with small businesses that are trying to be compliant, which businesses it is in all our interests to keep open.

The issue of phoenix businesses is fascinating and is evident all around the country. Such businesses sell one product, have one staff member and operate under one name, close on a Friday and reopen on a Monday with the same product and staff but a slightly different name. That might be an extreme example but not by much. They pay every other bill but Revenue's, and, ultimately ours as taxpayers, because they need to keep their suppliers, leaving Revenue high and dry. These businesses continue to operate, which is not fair on their competitors who are tax compliant. I would like if Ms Feehily could comment further on that issue.

The final issue of concern, which is a technical issue for those of us not working in Revenue, is the carrying forward of losses and when they will hit the books. Chapter 17 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's 2010 report outlines the amount of unused losses and capital allowances that exist within Revenue. It is estimated that there is an overhang of €49.6 billion. Of that €49.6 billion, €34.3 billion is in the financial sector, a sector on which we are currently having many discussions in this State. We all want our banks to return to profit but accept some of them may not, which is somewhat irrelevant to this conversation. What plans are Revenue putting in place to deal with these losses and the impact they will have on it? An OECD study - this is also referred to in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report - states that it will take on average three to eight years for the overall stock of bank losses to be used up. Is Revenue entering a phase whereby for three to eight years it will have to deal with these losses? Perhaps Ms Feehily will talk us through that.

Ms Josephine Feehily

On the serious cases of tax evasion, they are criminal indictable prosecutions. I do not have the tax at risk for those cases with me but will forward that information to the committee. The point made by the Comptroller and Auditor General relates to the disposal rate. The Deputy asked about evidence, skills and so on. These cases go through an investigation phase with the DPP, the courts and so on. The disposal rate comes at the end of the process. Seven cases is not untypical. To date this year we have had 13 tax cases disposed of. In other words, they have been through the courts process and we secured 13 convictions. We have also had 13 criminal investigations on the excise duty side. Revenue has concluded 17 criminal tax evasion files. Throughput in terms of whether we are moving cases along quickly enough is my responsibility. In my view, a disposal rate of seven is too little. We currently have the required skills but I am worried about next February. The amount of money at risk in those cases would not be the indicator we consider. Sometimes these cases come from egregious, criminal and serious fraudulent behaviour. If we were to spend too long working out the total amount at risk, we would be wasting our time. We would be better off going with some simple charges before moving along. It helps us with the evidential burden to take sample charges and move them through. The biggest difficulty for us on the evidential side is proving mens rea, or intention.

We have significant resources involved and it is really important to continue keeping that resource in place as a deterrent. We must have prosecutions. We have also enhanced our prosecution programme in the past couple of years by going with summary prosecutions, with the disposal rate much higher in those instances. We have a target of a couple of hundred of those this year. Simpler charges are not done on indictment and they are moved fairly quickly.

With regard to small businesses we have been putting out a certain line since 2008. I remember being interviewed shortly after my appointment and being asked about this. We have been saying to people with big and small businesses that if they run into problems, they should speak to us. That remains our position and the door is open. This is very much connected to the Comptroller and Auditor General's point on our filing rate versus the payment rate. For us, keeping people in the system by encouraging them to file their returns on time, even if they cannot pay the full amount, is a really important performance indicator. If we take too hard a line in the process, those people will go underground. We want people to keep sending us returns and talking to us about the money. Our returns compliance rate for the big cases is in the high 90s by due month or due month plus one. For the medium cases, the rate is in the low 90s. For small cases it is in the 80s. We are getting returns, which is very important.

With regard to payment plans, there are approximately 15,000 businesses and €130 million in tax under time to pay arrangements. That is more than we had last year and much more than we would have had five years ago. The programme is working for us and the experience is that 70% of the large cases where we make a time to pay arrangement come good. Of the 30% which are left, they either find they cannot afford to pay their creditors or us and they may fold. A tiny amount get a second chance and come good.

The Deputy focused on the small and medium enterprise level. The collector general has told me approximately 1,200 of those cases are in that section, with approximately 60% of those coming good when we give them time to pay. It is a slightly lower effective rate of response to being given instalment arrangements and time to pay. Ultimately, it is the right action to take.

The International Monetary Fund has a practice note on how to behave with regard to debt and collection in a recession, with one of the key points being to recognise when businesses have difficulty and to work with them. The IMF has reviewed our procedures and practices in that regard and approved them. The process is working well and the business community sees it in a positive way. I do not get complaints in that regard, which is a sort of performance indicator that is important.

I agree that phoenix companies are very important. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report identified some chinks in our procedures which were down to human failings rather than a system failure, as we have procedures but some people did not follow them. It is important to note the cases that were not handled in accordance with procedures. For one group it would have been rather foolish to follow procedures slavishly. A workaround was put in place but the procedures were not rewritten. We have now rewritten procedures to match the workaround. I do not like to discourage people from using their initiative. In this case there were instructions to send the returns to a particular place but they were sent elsewhere.

Another group of cases were not being properly handled but they were going to the regular debt management units and not a black hole. They were going through the same kinds of controls as other debt cases. The solution is to automate procedures and we are making a start on that this year. We are looking to get automatic commonality checks, using rules where technology will carry out checks in order to remove or reduce the scope for human error.

In our phoenix programme at the end of 2010 we had 675 businesses, which was nearly a quarter up on the previous year. By monitoring them closely approximately 60% were substantially compliant, with the other 40% being intensively managed, with every return and amount watched as if they were big cases. We watch large cases very closely and the phoenix companies get the same kind of attention. Six of the companies have been liquidated and 15 of them are the subject of section 214, which means they will be liquidated. They move through the system and we monitor the businesses; when we establish that they are broadly compliant they move through to normal monitoring. Approximately 40% are under intensive scrutiny.

What about losses?

Ms Josephine Feehily

This is less an issue for the Revenue Commissioners than it is for the Exchequer. In the 2009 report, the Comptroller and Auditor General identified the risk that we did not quite know the size of the problem. We did not know because the problem was cyclical before this but we have remedied the issue by identifying its size. We participated in the OECD report and the woman who heads our banking sector in large cases division was a member of the team which produced the report. In Ireland, we suspect the timeline is a bit longer than eight years.

How long is it?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I do not know because I do not know enough about banks and capitalisation spaces. It is important to recognise that losses can only be utilised if there are profits. The answer would be dependent on when banks will return to profitability. We engaged with the Department of Finance when we saw the problem coming down the tracks. As a result, with covered banks there is a restriction on how much of a loss they can use in any one year. That was put into the NAMA legislation. We told personnel in the Department of Finance that they would have a problem and they took it on board in that fashion.

From the Revenue Commissioners' perspective, the more significant compliance issue with losses - with regard to what we can bring to the party - is when people look to abuse that aspect. We monitor that very closely with large businesses and financial institutions. In 2010 we restricted over €100 million in claims for losses and decreed them not to be losses. That was in the large businesses area. The bigger risk is the manipulation of losses, whereas the size of the losses is an Exchequer issue. We can contribute to the analysis, as we have done, and that is set out very well in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report for 2010. We can collect the data and contribute that way.

As we manage all the financial institutions in one unit, we have very close relations with their head of tax units etc. We can informally find out intentions for any given year and feed that into the tax forecasting process on an anonymised basis into the Department of Finance. That can be done with large businesses and financial institutions because we have a close relationship with them. They are prepared to help with our forecasting by telling us, broadly speaking at certain times, if there is something that may impact, particularly with regard to corporation tax. We play our part in helping manage losses and watching for manipulation is probably more important from my perspective.

I wish to continue with the last issue on the impact of losses. Is it Ms Feehily's view that the impact of that is a matter for the Exchequer?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The impact of the losses is about the functioning of the interaction between accounting, profits and tax. The Irish legislative framework allows indefinite carry forward of losses in general terms. There are refinements at the edges for trading versus not trading and so on. There is one year carry back and indefinite carry forward. In that context it is an issue of when they will crystallise and when will companies choose to book them against their profits. That is an Exchequer issue rather than a compliance issue.

Certainly. However, given that Revenue is the collection agent for this tax and given the scale of the loss for all sorts of circumstances and the potential negative consequences of overhang, does Ms Feehily have a view? The reports of the Comptroller and Auditor General seem to suggest that Revenue could be more effective in assisting the process of calculation, estimation or modelling in respect of what are phenomenal figures. Does Ms Feehily take that point?

Ms Josephine Feehily

My recollection is that point was made in the 2009 report and we rectified it to a very large degree by collecting the data and making them available. It is reflected in the 2010 report. I am not sure if the Comptroller and Auditor General thinks we have more to do in data collection, but I thought we had done it. My understanding was that we had identified the amounts by remedying the-----

I understand that the quantities have been identified. I am questioning Revenue's role in assisting the Department of Finance in the calculation of that and its likely impact on the revenue base. Does Ms Feehily see that as an appropriate role for Revenue? Would Revenue be in a position to do that given its resources, staffing and skills levels?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I thank the Deputy and I am sorry that I misunderstood. Certainly we have a lot of information so our role in tax forecasting is to help the Exchequer by giving it information we have, whatever analysis we can and whatever expertise we can bring to the party. That tends to be in two forms - one is the data from the various tax returns and another part of it is our intelligence, if one likes, from engaging with business as I explained to Deputy Harris. So we certainly have a part to play in helping the Department evaluate the likely impact into the future. I did not mean to suggest we had not. The point is that up to 2009 we did not collect the data in a sufficiently granular fashion and now we are doing that.

We have already, I think, in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, suggested that we think the losses will have a significant impact on future tax revenues if they were all used. We have worked out that they could have an impact on corporation tax receipts of €6.2 billion, but we cannot say what year they will hit. It is also our view that they will not all be utilised, partly because a number of the institutions that have earned - for want of a better word - these losses will not return to profit.

Ms Josephine Feehily

It is only on an annual basis by us engaging with some of these businesses that we will be able to say - we will share this with the Department of Finance - how much of those losses businesses or individual financial institutions might be likely to use. If they are covered financial institutions they are likely to be telling the Department of Finance that themselves. I was not suggesting we did not have intelligence to bring, but when I said it was an Exchequer issue, it simply arises from the interaction of our tax law.

Equally, I am not suggesting that Revenue has not gathered the data - I can see quite clearly that it has. My question is on the effective use of those data. With almost €50 billion in losses and capital allowances allowable for carry forward and offset for 2010, we are talking about substantial and mind-boggling figures. We all accept the impact of that overhang will be substantial in respect of the revenue base. I understand there are delineations between the Exchequer and Revenue, which is fine. The impression from the Comptroller and Auditor General is that Revenue could make more effective use of those data, not to give absolutely exact figures in respect of that effect but certainly to provide calculations or estimates of it. I would have thought given the scale of this issue, there is an obligation on Revenue along with the Exchequer and other bodies to actively pursue those calculations. Is Ms Feehily satisfied that best use is being made of those data and that there is sufficient co-operation between the Exchequer, the Minister and Revenue to do the calculations? We are in a catastrophe as it stands and are not in a position to be in any way laissez-faire about this matter. Does Ms Feehily take my point now?

Ms Josephine Feehily

If I understood the question correctly it is whether there is anything else we can bring to the discussion. I do not think there is, but if somebody identifies something we can do, we most certainly will. We have a very close working relationship with the Department of Finance in contributing to it any data we have and any intelligence we have to help it forecast the impact of these and anything else that is happening in the environment. We will never know in concrete terms how much of the losses will hit in any particular year until the returns are filed for that year. It is just not possible to know given the interaction of the tax system and normal accounting rules.

Am I satisfied we are doing what we can? I am certainly satisfied we are doing anything we have been asked to do and anything we could think of ourselves in the form of intelligence information or assessment of the likely impact. I also think that by working with that banking group in the OECD we learned a lot about how other countries measure this issue. That intelligence has been brought back and is also being deployed, particularly in the banking unit I mentioned. I think we are doing what we can do to help the Department of Finance understand the likely impact of the corporation tax loss.

I do not have a specific innovation to suggest as to how Revenue might do this better. However, such a level of loss that needs to be dealt with and absorbed into the system will clearly have an impact on the revenue base and therefore the delivery of services etc. There is an absolute obligation on Revenue and all other parties not just to do what they are asked. I urge Ms Feehily to look at that again and perhaps we might return to it at some future time.

We can take up that point again with the Department of Finance and others as they come before us.

How much was clawed back, for example, by the banks when they used the losses against corporation tax paid in the previous year? Does Ms Feehily have a figure for that?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I am not sure but my officials can look for it. I am not sure if I have a figure just for the banks. We restricted €108 million. I tend to come at this from the point of view of what we saved. We restricted €108 million on banks in 2010, that is, on losses they tried to claim but to which we did not think they were entitled. That is the way I approach the figures. However, I do not know how much they used up.

You do not know?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I do not know how much losses they used up. I do not have it here with me.

Yes, but you can find out.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Certainly, I can find out.

Perhaps you would.

I will return to the issue of the random audit which was raised by my colleague, Deputy Harris. Not to be combative, but Ms Feehily's version, said in good faith, is that the audit processes and so forth are adequate and that they proceed in a targeted fashion. She pointed to enhanced yields as a result. The view in the reports we have been given is at variance with that. It states that auditing is not being used to the extent it could be in terms of tax compliance or identifying non-compliance. How do members of this committee square that circle?

Ms Josephine Feehily

First, I would never say that our auditing processes could not be improved. Compared with ten years ago, our audit programme and our compliance programmes generally are far more effective. We are always striving to learn and to improve our audit and compliance programmes. In the risk analysis system I referred to, for example, every self-assessed taxpayer, and there are 800,000 cases, is run through the risk analysis system three or four times a year. We have about 48 data sources there and 197 rules to run against, compared to manual sorting and sifting as was previously the case. Every year we add new rules and get rid of old rules that have not proved to be useful.

I am not sure that there is a huge difference between ourselves and the Comptroller and Auditor General. As I understood the report, the Comptroller and Auditor General was saying that we could use the results of our random audit programmes better to inform our targeted programmes. He is correct. All I am saying is that we do use them. I am not saying that we could not use them to continually improve. One of our colleagues used a lovely line a few years ago. He said: "I used to think REAP, which is the risk analysis system, was great. Now I think it is adequate and getting better." The more one does with it, the more one learns about its potential.

That is reasonable.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I take the point that there are lessons to be learned, and also from the targeted ones. For the last while, for example, we have set as a performance indicator for our managers not having nil yielding audits in the targeted programme, because that means wasting businesses' time, costing them money and wasting our time as well. We want the risk based programme to always hit the risky cases. The random programme every year throws up some serious outliers. Those outliers are studied individually to see what was in that case that made it so big; whether we would have picked it up on the risk programme; if we did not, why not; whether we can turn that into a rule and see if there are more cases like it.

The other thing we are doing with our risk analysis system is the roll out of a predictive tool. Basically, we have taken audits that have given us good yield and we have tried to train the system to find more ones like it. That is putting it in my language; my statisticians have lovely language for it.

I am sure they do.

Ms Josephine Feehily

It is essentially trying to predict the cases where we are likely to get the best hits. The intelligence from the random programme, particularly the outliers or the ones that are really big, and from the risk programme is used to inform that. I did not mean to suggest in my remarks to Deputy Harris that I had any difficulty with the Comptroller and Auditor General's conclusion that we needed to learn from the random programme. We learn but we do not do the analysis in quite the same way. We can learn more from his analysis as well.

I am conscious of the time so I will put my final question. Can we take it that when we see the next report from the Comptroller and Auditor General that we will see more consideration or improvement or innovation with regard to the issue of the random audit and the collection and use of data, particularly relating to loss? That would be very useful.

Ms Feehily was asked if she was satisfied with her skill levels. It is clear from her entourage that she has many skills at her disposal. However, she made an almost throwaway remark about next February. Obviously that refers to the predicted exodus from the ranks of the civil and public service. The Minister, Deputy Brendan Howlin, has conceded that it will be an issue because it will not be targeted and will have a potentially negative consequence for the service. What do the witnesses envisage looming next February and what will be its effect? What contingency plans, if any, have been made? I thank the witnesses for their responses.

Ms Josephine Feehily

On the first part of the question, every year our audit programme shows improvements and innovations. I would have to consider whether they are the precise ones that the Comptroller and Auditor General has listed. One of the recommendations he made about the data capture on the random programme has been implemented. The data from the random audits is being captured and the uplift figure, which we did not have in the past, is being captured. That is certainly being implemented. We have implemented a new case management system for our audits and we are extending that to assurance checks soon, so we will have more data. Certainly, I can promise the committee innovation. I am very confident that our risk-based focus will continue to show that this focus is working and is giving us better results than the random approach. I can promise the committee that.

I am concerned about February and as the Deputy said, the Minister, Deputy Howlin, said he is concerned as well. The Revenue Commissioners has lost approximately 10% of its staff in the last three years. We lost many people with serious skills on the incentivised retirement scheme. I appreciate very much that I was given an exemption from the moratorium to fill some gaps. They were small numbers, but key numbers. We did that through a mixture of open and internal recruitment. Now, I am getting worried again. I am expecting to lose approximately 150 people. However, I am engaging with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. We have made a submission. Recently, it gave me sanction to recruit graduates for IT so I have no reason to believe that I will not be able to replace some of the skills. However, I am worried about the dip, as one gets a dip in performance. It is the scale rather than the individuals that concerns me.

The plans that are being put in place include engaging with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, as we did the last time. When we lose key skills we need to replace them quickly with fully trained people. We went to the market and recruited people at principal officer and assistant principal officer level with accounting and taxation skills. I am hoping I will be able to repeat that next year, even if it is only in very modest numbers. Very modest numbers can make a huge impact if one puts them in the right places. One part of the contingency plan, therefore, is to hope to recruit small numbers. We must admit that because of our automation, we can manage with smaller numbers than ten years ago. It is about getting the mix right between skills and grades. We are losing work at the lower end so we need replacements in the middle. We have a plan and will engage with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. We cannot do anything in concrete terms until we get the applications to retire and we know what the impact is going to be. I am hopeful, however, that with a combination of modest recruitment and some internal promotions we will be able to replace the skills, but I expect we will have to work hard. This may mean we might have to stop doing some things to keep the remaining skill resources focused on compliance areas. If that is what we must do, we will say so.

On the issue of losses for the banks in 2010, it was stated in the report that a large proportion was made up by NAMA-based banks. Are there any circumstances in which those losses could be bought by another institution? Could a loan book be sold, with the losses following it? Will the losses die with the institutions that are being wound down or could those losses be sold on?

The Revenue online service, ROS, filing system has been an unqualified success. What link does Revenue have with the Department of Social Protection? The black economy is estimated to make up 13% of the GDP of the country, which is around €18 billion per year. The amount taken in through audits is around €431 million. I would think it obvious that the Department of Social Protection and the Revenue Commissioners should establish a linked database.

Are there any figures for the numbers who have set themselves up as self-employed in the last 12 months, be they sole traders or limited companies, and the number who have deregistered as self-employed? The Revenue Commissioners are at the coalface of the economy.

There is a perception among small business people that they are being unfairly targeted for Revenue audits compared with the big boys who are being left alone because the Revenue Commissioners do not have the skills to audit them. There are no special investigations under way so how many accountants, solicitors or technical experts are there? The larger operations involve complicated tax schemes and are difficult, but they often yield a lot of money.

A lot of taxpayers' money was put into the banks and effectively losses are another subsidy from the taxpayer. There is a gap between the 13% of GDP being lost in the shadow economy and the €431 million a year being taken in. There is a need for a database that links the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social Protection. What skills are available to take on the big boys, those who come up with complicated schemes? There is a fine line between tax avoidance and tax evasion. Invariably that comes down to the skill sets available.

Ms Josephine Feehily

The figure for the estimated amount of utilised losses in financial institutions in 2009 was €4.7 billion. That was in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report and includes capital allowances.

A total of €4.75 billion?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The Chairman asked how much had been used up and that is the answer.

What is the net effect of that?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The net effect is to multiply that by 12.5%, the tax they did not pay. We discussed this at length with Deputy O'Donnell.

Some €600 million?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes. The point I was trying to make is that it is essentially a policy matter; this is how tax law is designed here. Not every country has the same regime, although most of them have losses forward but ours are indefinite. The impact and what to do about it are policy matters. The Department of Finance responded on the NAMA banks by putting in the 50% restrictions so they could not just take it all together.

I do not know the answer to Deputy O'Donnell's question about the sale of losses. If the businesses are liquidated, the losses die with them and that is why we do not expect all the losses in the system to be used up. Can losses be sold with a loan book? I do not know.

A useful exercise would be for someone in the Revenue Commissioners to get familiar with the banks' structures to see how the losses have been structured to ensure the interests of taxpayers are protected.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I can assure the Deputy we have done that. The fact I do not know the answer does not mean I do not have an expert who does. I mentioned her earlier and as a result of her efforts we restricted the €108 million of losses last year. We have that structure in place and she worked on the OECD report. I am satisfied we have the expertise but I do not know the answer to the question.

How many people have registered and how many have deregistered? I do not have the information handy but I have a net figure. On the self-assessment side there has been a net increase of 4% in 2010 over 2007. There was a net increase on the company side of 5.2% in 2010 over 2007. I can break the figures down and send them to the committee but there has been a net increase over the last four years. Much of that is at the micro end as people who became unemployed set themselves up. We are getting new registrations all the time.

That is encouraging.

Ms Josephine Feehily

The Deputy is right; we are the coalface and it is important to us they register and stay in the system.

On the question of tax avoidance versus tax evasion, I was smiling slightly because this is a regular argument we have with tax practitioners. The tax practitioners do not agree at all that there is a fine line and they think avoidance is legal and evasion is illegal and that it is as simple as that, whereas the Office of the Revenue Commissioners sees aggressive tax planning as a matter that must be challenged and that claiming mortgage relief is avoidance at the other extreme end.

Will Ms Feehily address the perception that Revenue spends all the time on the audit of small businesses, many of whom are under enormous pressure, instead of the very large entities, which may be offshore? Will Ms Feehily elaborate on the skills set of staff, and specifically identify the skills sets?

Ms Josephine Feehily

It is important that I outline the way Revenue deals with the larger entities. We have a division called large cases and they get special attention. All the very large businesses, more than 600 odd, comprising large businesses, groups, high worth individuals, and partnerships from the large law and accountancy firms are managed by this division. When we established that division, we put our most skilled auditors in it. The number of technically skilled people in that division is proportionately higher than in the rest of the organisation. That division took a hit under the incentivised retirement scheme, which I discussed with Deputy McDonald. We went to the market and hired four principal officers, specifically for dealing with large cases, to increase the skill level. They came to us from the private sector. It caused a bit of a shock among the practitioners when they realised they were meeting some of their former colleagues across the table. We hired 22 assistant principals from the private sector and we put seven or eight into the large cases division. We moved very quickly to plug that gap.

Would they be accountants or solicitors?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Accountants and lawyers with particular tax experience. If I have to do that again, that is what I will do to replace the skills deficit. It is of major importance, having set up this regime to manage all big businesses together. In that space, we have co-operative compliance arrangements with some of the businesses. The audit is of a different form. Where somebody heads a sectoral unit such as banking, the multiples or pharma - the large cases section is divided into sectors - gets to know the sector and goes to meet the businesses at chief financial officer and chief executive officer level, what we are reviewing is their systems rather than doing comprehensive tax audits. They are entering into agreements with us that they will have appropriate oversight arrangements in place and we review their arrangements in many instances. This is best practice internationally. All advanced tax administrations do this because it is the only sensible way to manage it.

On the avoidance side, it is very difficult for us not to be always behind the game. We might spot a scheme, ask the Department of Finance to do something about it in the Finance Bill and close the scheme, only to find money has gone missing. In the past 12 months we have introduced a mandatory disclosure regime for avoidance schemes which we believe will give us an opportunity to better use our admittedly limited resources. If a practitioner is promoting an avoidance scheme, he has to tell Revenue about it. We can examine it to see whether this is what the law intended and, if not, challenge it using our general anti-avoidance powers, and close the scheme more quickly. They have been doing this in the UK for many years and they started doing it in the US relatively recently, where they are asking for a disclosure of what they call "an uncertain tax position", although only in relation to large business. It is best practice and it is what other countries do to try to be up with the aggressive tax planning game. So far under that mandatory disclosure regime, we have had seven disclosures of schemes that would be promoted to cover several clients. We will examine those and if they need attention in the law, we will be talking to our friends in the Department of Finance.

My final point is the link between the Office of the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social Protection. Is there a system that links the information in Revenue with the information on social welfare by the press of a button?

Ms Josephine Feehily

We do not have the same database. We have frequent dynamic exchanges of information with the Department of Social Protection. We send them P45 data as soon as we get them in order that they know a person has lost his or her job.

It seems to make common sense for two organisations of the State to have an interlink.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Let me be clear, we have many links. Data move freely between the two Departments, but we do not have a system where one can push a button and see the two. Data move completely freely between the two Departments. We have added data sources to that link in the past 12 months. We get information about all the welfare payments. That goes into our risk analysis system. We get information about rent allowance payments and that goes into our system. They get information from us and have always been getting information about employment and PRSI. They sometimes got it a bit late, but now we are giving them the information much more frequently and dynamically. The links exist. As to whether there should be one big great data warehouse, that would be a phenomenally big job and cost a great deal of money. The Data Protection Commissioner would have things to say about it. He oversees those exchanges and audits them all to ensure we do them all with particular protocols.

I started my career in the former Department of Social Welfare and the current Secretary General, Ms Niamh O'Donoghue, spent time in Revenue. We work very closely together and we know each other's problems and we have elevated that discussion to the high level group in recent years. We are completely open to deepening that relationship. The Minister for Social Protection has established a group to review matters and we are represented on it in our own right as well as the Department of Finance.

Will Ms Feehily comment on the fact that the yield from audits this year was €431 million, yet it is generally recognised that the shadow black economy can make up to 13% of GDP, which could be of the order of €20 billion a year?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I looked at the report the Comptroller and Auditor General referred to in his report. It is really important to understand what it is. It is a report prepared by Professor Friedrich Schneider. His methodology is not without controversy. It includes, for example, as one of the indicators of shadow economy measure a rise in the tax rate. This is just a rate issue and has nothing to do with compliance or audit or anything. He has a range of criteria by which he measures the shadow economy in the OECD countries, and one of them is an increase in the tax rate. That is not all there is to it. It is also important to point out that in that report, the Irish shadow economy is exactly in the middle of 21 OECD countries and is lower than the Nordic countries, Germany and the OECD average. It is lower than it was in Ireland seven or eight years ago. It is a complex report and does not really provide a comparison only with tax compliance. The two figures are wholly different types of analysis. I was struck by the use of that figure, particularly in commentary in recent days, without actual recognition that it is not a bad number. In Professor Schneider's terms we are below the OECD average.

Does Ms Feehily believe the black economy constitutes a challenge to the Revenue Commissioners?

Ms Josephine Feehily

There is no question about that. We recognise fully that in a recession - this is part of Schneider's methodology - the tendency is for the black economy to grow. We have focused our resources very deliberately on what we call "the cash economy space" because that is where the risk is. To give the example from the sectors that we see as riskiest, last year in construction we did 2,226 audits and collected €61 million and this year to date we have done 1,385 audits and collected nearly €50 million. Last year, we did 295 audits of the hospitality sector in its entirety and collected €7 million. This year to date we have done 202 audits which have given us €5 million.

As I said in my opening remarks, the shadow economy is not just about a fellow painting a wall; it is about suppression of profits and income and dealing in cash. There is a tendency sometimes to associate it with an individual doing a nixer. If a person does a nixer and earns a couple of hundred euro every month, he is probably not in the tax net. While he is a risk to the Exchequer and a big risk to social security, he is not necessarily a tax risk. His sin may be that he fails to send me a return by the middle of November with the amount in question declared in it. However, there may not be any money due.

The operation of cash in the white collar sector - hospitality, the trades and so on - is a bigger risk for us than necessarily somebody who is earning a small amount of money. A married couple with one source of income has to earn in excess of €24,000 before they are in the tax net. A self-employed person has to have a turnover of more than about €36,000 before he or she has to register for VAT. Therefore, the tax offence might be more perceived than real.

Last year we did audits in the professional sector which yielded €9 million. This year to date we have already done 296 audits which yielded €7 million. It is important to point out, from our point of view, that we are trying to follow the cash risks rather than the kind of-----

How many audits were carried out in the financial and banking sector?

I was interested in the line the Deputy was taking on sharing information with the Department of Social Protection and perhaps other Departments. The Revenue Commissioners have a particular unit that deals with different sectors such as the pub trade, builders and so forth. In targeting each sector they obtain a great deal of information. I presume it shares this information. The special investigation unit examined the tax returns from banks and paid particular interest to the banking sector. In the past ten years, did it pick up information other than taxation information regarding the general activities of banks which may have been of interest to the Department of Finance or other Departments? We all ask how much of the information the Revenue Commissioners collect is relevant to the Department of Social Protection. How much did they learn from the banks-----

In terms of interest free directors' loans and so forth.

-----in terms of the activities of the serious accountancy companies which work with them? How much, if any, information on the poor position of the banks was collected that could have helped the Department of Finance? We discovered the position too late, to all our costs.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I have a short answer to the first question. I do not know how many audits we did in banking last year but we collected €12.2 million from our audit activity in the banking sector last year. Of this figure, 46% was VAT, including interest and penalties, some was payroll tax and some was corporation tax.

How many of the audited banks were NAMA related?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I do not know as I do not have the information with me. I can drop the Deputy a note.

The figure Ms Feehily cited refers to the entire financial sector.

Ms Josephine Feehily

We put it together for the financial sector.

On the NAMA related banks, I will expand on the view expressed by the Chairman. Certain issues arose in the banking sector, particularly in the area of directors' loans. The individuals in question were required to file returns in terms of benefits-in-kind and so forth if that arose. This returns us to the point about pooling the rich reservoir of information available to the Revenue Commissioners with the Department of Social Protection and so forth. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report states the audits should be used not only as a method of collection but also to produce an overview of sectors.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I will drop the committee a line on the breakdown of the audits.

In 2010, €12 million alone was collected in the financial sector.

Ms Josephine Feehily

We collected €12.2 million in 2010 from within that sector in large cases that cover financial services, banking and treasury. We restricted €108 million in losses as well, which is a much bigger figure. As I said earlier, losses are where we tend to get excited.

Were they random audits?

Ms Josephine Feehily

No.

Did issues come to the attention of the Revenue Commissioners which they believed it was necessary to probe?

Ms Josephine Feehily

To give an example, the Deputy mentioned directors. There was a report, the CIROC report, published in relation to remuneration in the covered institutions. There was a question mark in the report, a doubt about something, that caused us to ask whether we should have a look at it.

Ms Josephine Feehily

It was about trying to get around the pensions restriction. As a result of the report, we looked at the remuneration of 300 directors and executives in the financial sector. We closed 280 cases - the figure is slightly higher now - and collected €1.3 million, which is not a massive amount.

How many cases were audited in total?

Ms Josephine Feehily

We looked at all the directors and executives.

What was the total number?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Three hundred people.

From how many of those individuals did the Revenue Commissioners collect?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I do not know. I am sorry. I know we closed 280 cases and collected €1.3 million.

The Revenue collected in 20 cases.

Ms Josephine Feehily

There are 20 cases still open. From the 280 we closed we got €1.3 million. I do not know the relationship.

On what basis was the €1.3 million collected? Did it arise from interest-free loans? What were the specific reasons? Based on the figures provided, the Revenue Commissioners collected just short of €15 million from banks and their directors and executives in 2010. Is that correct?

Ms Josephine Feehily

If one adds the audit of the entities to the other audit, it is correct. The figure is approximately €13.5 million.

Are audits of the banking sector and bank directors, apart from the incomplete cases involving directors and top management, continuing in 2011?

Ms Josephine Feehily

There are certainly audits ongoing because audits are always taking place. I could not tell the Deputy what precisely we are looking into at this precise time and probably would not do so until the cases were closed. We are certainly active in monitoring the banking sector.

I find it difficult to comprehend that in 2010, when many of the covered institutions had received taxpayers' money, the Revenue Commissioners believed it was necessary to do audits on the same institutions and generated €12 million arising from the non-payment of taxes. Ms Feehily spoke about the small guys. These are the people we primarily represent and they are under pressure from the banks and their mortgage repayments. Many small and medium sized companies are having their overdrafts converted into term loans and cannot function. I find this astounding. Perhaps Ms Feehily can give us the breakdown? It is appalling that situation has now come to light. What is the breakdown for the covered institutions and what percentage of tax was collected from them on foot of audits?

Ms Josephine Feehily

From our point of view, we still have a job as to whether they are covered or not covered. That sector pays us about €1 billion every year in payroll taxes alone so we have to audit that. There is DIRT which has to be audited and there is also the operation of the tax relief at source system on mortgages which has to be audited. We have a unit that keeps closely involved with it. The Chairman asked about information sharing.

Ms Josephine Feehily

We did not do reports or anything like that. We work very closely with the Department of Finance but we would not have been looking at the profitability or the liquidity issues in banks. It just would not have been on our radar screen. If we had data, we would certainly have shared it. We would have shared with it how many mortgages we were giving tax relief at source for, but it knew that from other sources. It knew how many mortgages were in the system.

By way of example, if directors of public companies are filing annual income tax returns which they are obliged to file in respect of director's loans, would the Revenue Commissioners have a system in place to correlate those loans with what is being disclosed in the published annual accounts for those publicly quoted companies?

Ms Josephine Feehily

That is one of the things that large cases division does, by having this approach to looking at sectors, getting to know the sectors and getting to meet the chief financial officers. Quite often questions would arise from examination of the annual reports and accounts of the business. It is to the business we would go. To return to the Chairman's question, we would not necessarily go to the Department of Finance to say we had spotted a mismatch. If we go back a few years when they were not covered institutions but were private businesses, our taxpayer confidentiality rules applied to businesses. There is much discussion in the public domain and even in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report about the institutions now because they are public bodies technically. Going back a couple of years, we certainly would not have been in a position, even if we had known, to disclose specific things about named directors or named individuals because it would be a breach of taxpayer confidentiality.

I thank Ms Feehily for her answers so far. She said she lost 10% of her staff in the past three years. I used to work in a solicitor's where an extra solicitor would be hired if he or she could pay their own wages. Generally, does hiring another person produce enough extra income and investigative revenue to cover the cost of hiring a person?

Ms Josephine Feehily

We think it does but I will have that conversation with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. We think it does if we put them into the right programmes. For example, on the debt side, recently we decided to give the Collector General some additional staff - that means stealing them from somewhere else. We will have a hard look at what return on investment we get from deploying an additional 15 people into debt management work for a particular cohort of debt. We will evaluate it at the end and see what was the return on investment; what was the ratio between the cost of staff and what they can collect by managing a particular tranche of cases that owe us money. Likewise we would say on audit, that auditors earn their wages. There is a huge infrastructure behind the organisation obviously, the people who write legislation, the HR and IT people. One is trying to connect the total cost, but we believe they do.

Extra auditors generate income and cover their own costs.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I believe so.

ISME conducted a study some months ago and stated that the cost of the shadow economy to the Exchequer was approximately €5 billion per annum, which represents about one third of the budget deficit at present? Is that an accurate figure?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I do not know that figure so I cannot not tell the Deputy. After it made that statement we invited ISME to come in and speak to us about the shadow economy issues because it has not been part of our hidden economy monitoring group up to now, although the Small Firms Association has been part of the group. ISME has met my officials to discuss its understanding of what is going on. We have invited it to share with us concrete information, about which we can do something - not €5 million - of parts of the country or sectors or individual business. We have invited many of the trade representative bodies to do that because they tell us they are being undercut by competitors and we ask them to tell us who they are. We are developing an arrangement, which I think is agreed, with some of the trade bodies, including ISME, because there is a reluctance to inform by one business on another. They will actually provide anonymised information through ISME to us. We are giving them a template form so that the information is useful. It is not particularly useful if somebody says, as I said earlier, that a fellow is painting a wall but actual concrete information that we can operationalise. That is the way we are approaching ISME's estimate.

It was brought to my attention recently on the issue of reporting that the Department does not have a reporters' hotline that would be answered. If someone telephones the Revenue Commissioners to inform it of a certain business or person, there is nobody to answer a telephone and to take that information from somebody. Is that true?

Ms Josephine Feehily

We do not have a hotline, a complaints or shop your neighbour hotline. We have experimented with it in relation to tobacco and it has not been fruitful. In my own office we get these calls regularly and anonymous letters all over the organisation. We call them good citizens reports. They all analysed and acted on. The usefulness of them is low when one distils actual facts and information. Instead the way we are approaching it is to invite the businesses to give us the information in the fashion I described. There is a reluctance to name people. Maybe the Deputy is suggesting that reluctance is going away but certainly we have not had evidence of that.

The Department of Social Protection would have noticed in recent years the number of people reporting. Given the way people view it now, in terms of the economic constraints, it is unacceptable that there has not been an increase in reporting.

Ms Josephine Feehily

We are looking at the way they have been doing it and trying to see the value versus the resources. If we gets masses of calls or complaints, we will be obliged to deploy people to follow them up. In many cases they are not necessarily from the purest of motives. We think it is better if we can follow that information through the business representative bodies and invite them to come in and talk to us. We supply them with a form and if they can fill in useful information and give it to us, then we will follow those up. That is the way we are approaching the issue. We will see if that works. We will also look at the Department of Social Protection experience but the concrete one we tried on tobacco did not supply us with much information that we did not have already.

A plumber who has a number of people on his staff came into my constituency office. He explained the difficulty he has. He pays his business tax, corporation tax, PRSI for his workers, income tax and VAT on everything he does. Those are the sectors of the economy that are struggling with many people out of work because of the downturn in construction. I know Ms Feehily said earlier that a man painting a wall is not such a big deal but if the man painting the wall is not charging VAT and a man who is registered and complying is paying VAT, there is already a 20% price differential between his product and the other product. I thought it was a little flippant how she treated that issue because there is general public support for the social welfare system. It is very much about trying to justify the amount of money being spent by the State, €21 billion per year on social welfare, when there are examples of the guy who is on social welfare and is painting a wall and getting €200 per month, which for someone on social welfare is a huge increase in income. That is being treated flippantly as if it would not have been in the tax net whereas people are seeing valued money being spent. It is slightly undermining the social welfare system. I can see where Ms Feehily is coming from, that €200 on a wall will not increase revenue very much, but it does impact on people's perceptions and it is impacting on other people who are charging VAT and paying tax for their workers. It is about more than just the tax to be raised. It is also about the impact on small businesses and the perception of the social welfare system.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Sorry, I certainly did not intend to be flippant. It was simply that the focus of the question was very much about where we were deploying our resources in the shadow economy and I was trying to explain why we do what we do. For us, the risks are not necessarily in that space. I did not mean to be flippant and I indicated that it was a risk for the Department of Social Protection, but that there might not be any money in it from a Revenue point of view. That is the only point I wanted to make.

The point is that these small nixers put other businesses out of work and almost force them into the black economy.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I may not have made the point clearly. That person may very well make a tax return, which is not required until the end of a tax year. We cannot assume that somebody will not make a tax return. That is the only point I wanted to make.

With regard to competition with others, we accept that we have responsibility in that space. We police that sector by assurance checks by and large. We did about 450,000 assurance checks last year, but this is not a sector on which we deploy our biggest and most expensive audit resource. We police that sector through assurance checks. If the Deputy bears with me, I will find some figures regarding assurance checks we did in those sectors. For example, we visited building sites, one-off housing and so on.

Was there another question I can answer while we are looking for the figures.

I have another question, if Ms Feehily wants to move on, and we can come back to the figures.

I am interested to know about some of the proposals which are coming from the hidden economy monitoring group. Obviously, these must be turned into policy, which is not something we can talk about, but I would like to hear about the proposals. I applaud the work being done in the audit and investigative area, but that all happens after the fact. Has the Department or the monitoring group ever looked at examples of how other countries deal with significant issues? I have done some research in this regard. For example, countries like Germany where there is a significant black economy working in a particular sector, such as home improvements or construction, provide incentives through the tax code by making such services tax deductible. In that way it brings the service into the real economy. Other places, for example, Greece, as part of its dealing with the EU-IMF, are looking at banning cash transactions. They are looking at making cash transactions in excess of €1,500 illegal because the issue is such a problem there.

I heard from somebody in California that any work done that costs in excess of $500 requires a contract. If there is no contract, it is not enforceable by law and prevents the person getting the work done from having any recourse to the courts and if the work is done at a different price to the contract price, there is proof to say it was not properly taxed or vetted. Has the monitoring group looked at preventing rather than investigating after the fact measures like this? They are not very radical and would be quite easy to implement.

Ms Josephine Feehily

A number of business associations have recommended this a number of times with regard to home improvements. As far as we are concerned, it is a policy matter as to whether tax deductibility would be allowed.

Surely the Revenue Commissioners would have to analyse the proposal and say that they believe it would lead to increased -----

Ms Josephine Feehily

We would have to analyse what it would cost us to process all claims and what value we would get from that. However, I have not analysed it because it is not an active policy proposal.

Again, I do not want Deputy to think I am being flippant, but what we do is use the tax clearance mechanism very well here. Other countries do not have that. For example, anything that is grant-aided, such as BER and Sustainable Energy Ireland contractors in the energy saving sector, must have tax clearance. Therefore, anybody availing of a grant under the various State schemes for energy saving must have tax clearance. We come at that cohort in that particular way. Anytime I hear that a new profession or trade is to be regulated, the Revenue Commission straightaway says it would like to have tax clearance provisions for them. We have those provisions with the security sector and so on. Tax clearance is a provision we have here that not many other administrations have. In discussion with some of them recently, they were intrigued by the idea. It used to be that tax clearance was just required for a State contract, but now it is much broader than that.

From a tax administrator's point of view, it would be wonderful if there was no cash in the economy. I would be delighted if that could happen. This is something I have discussed casually with the Irish Payment Services Organisation, which is frantically trying to get cash and cheques out of the system. There is a Government objective in that regard and we are making ourselves part of that by moving, incrementally over the next few years, to mandatory electronic filing and payment. That is for us, but it does not deal with the transactions between people and I must leave that to the policy makers.

In terms of cash, we get suspicious transaction reports. We get approximately 250 suspicious transaction reports every week. If there are big transactions in cash, for example, if someone goes into a bank and looks for a big wad of cash, we will get a suspicious transaction report. That is fed into our risk analysis system and will become a risk indicator for that case. Therefore, we have some handle on the movement of big amounts of cash here. I do not know enough about what the business community might think about the impact of banning cash. It is a more complex issue than is seen just from the point of view of the Revenue Commissioners.

With regard to prevention, apart from tax clearance we have made a number of innovations in the past couple of years. For example, we felt there was a risk with regard to VAT relating to subcontractors and the fractionated system as we did not always get all of the money due at the end, so we implemented a reverse charge in VAT so that the VAT must be accounted for at the top of the chain. This has increased the security of the total VAT take in the construction sector significantly. There are fewer of the big businesses in construction and we can audit them more easily and they are more likely to be compliant. We are also doing something interesting and innovative next year with relevant contracts tax and I can talk about that if the Deputy would like. This will ensure a different impact of relevant contracts tax for the compliant versus the non-compliant.

On prevention and to get back to the hidden economy monitoring group, a proposal has come to us from that group from the Construction Industry Federation, CIF, that we should get automatic access to commencement notices relating to planning applications. Currently, we can get them if we ask for them. We intend to progress that proposal on behalf of the group with the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government as it will require legislation from that Department.

We are big on prevention where possible. Our latest use of technology is to move into what we call real time risk analysis. In July of this year we rolled out a project which will do real time risk analysis on PAYE credit claims. In other words, what we are doing is building in rules at the front of the system and if certain indicators are present, the credit will not be allowed without further investigation. I hope in the next year to move on to real time risk analysis for VAT repayments, which will give us a much tighter hold on that sector. We will use analytics and all of the analysis mentioned earlier that we have learned from our audits and so on.

This is a range of the things we do to try and prevent leakage before it happens. The only one I can think of off the top of my head that is attributable to the hidden economy group is the commencement notice idea. Are there any other concrete ideas?

How often does the group meet?

Ms Josephine Feehily

It meets about once a quarter. We have bilateral meetings with the individual players if they want to develop particular ideas, such as the CIF, IBEC, ICTU, small firms, Departments such as the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation-----

I do not want to be disparaging, but if it has only come up with one idea that has been developed, it does not seem like a very productive group.

Ms Josephine Feehily

It has produced a number of reports. The only thing I could think of in the preventive space, off the top of my head, was that one. A couple of years ago, one of its biggest contributions was a review of the classification of employed versus self-employed, which led to the production of a code of practice. I am not saying the group produced the code, but it was produced in the context of the hidden economy monitoring group. One of the things we do, in that space we spoke about earlier at the lower end of the risk in our assurance checks, is check whether people should be employees and in PAYE. Reclassification of employees is one of the things we do in conjunction with the Department of Social Protection in the joint investigation units. Last year, we reclassified 263 people in PAYE who claimed to be self-employed on building sites. That was a really concrete output from that body. It has also produced an annual report which has been submitted to the Department of the Taoiseach. It was the Deputy's preventive question I was focusing on.

I accept that, but there really is very little that Ms Feehily's office can do to tackle the kind of low level nixer work, if I am to understand her answer.

Ms Josephine Feehily

We can do two things to stop that. We can use our intelligence - both our data and our wits - to try to understand the supply chain to see if purchases are being made by businesses that are not on our radar. We are starting to do this. I think we cannot do it by having an officer on every street corner. We do not have them, it would not be cost effective anyway and it would be extraordinarily disruptive to business. We have to try to use our data sources intelligently to see red flags and patterns that do not make sense. For example, examining the purchasing chain from a builder provider down will give us intelligence that we can use to focus on individuals who are making purchases for which they are not accounting. We look at lifestyle indicators where we see people who register a fancy car for VRT purposes but who have not made a tax return that is commensurate with it. We are getting deposit interest returns from all of the financial institutions and credit unions, and if we see a mismatch which suggests that somebody has got money from somewhere, then that causes us to ask questions. In our recent defaulters' list, a significant number of cases arose from that particular line of intelligence. The little tag on those cases was "deposit interest reporting".

We can use our intelligence and our analytics to identify the cases and confront them. The other thing we can do is encourage the public not to buy counterfeit cigarettes, because that is part of the problem, not to deal in cash, and to ask people if they are VAT registered so we can encourage good behaviour and discourage bad behaviour.

I thank Ms Feehily for her detailed answers to date. I have a few questions that pertain to Chapter 16 and the special investigations section of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, and the relevant figure is No. 83 on page 212. We see that from 1998 to date, more than €2.6 billion has been raised from special investigations, which is quite a considerable amount. In 2010 alone, it was €43 million. Paragraph 16.8 on page 211 refers to voluntary and non-voluntary disclosure schemes. Which is the more successful? What happens to someone who declares voluntarily on one of these investigations? Is a mark then put against his or her name? Does he or she stay in the system as somebody to keep an eye on?

Ms Josephine Feehily

In terms of success, we can all see the value in the various amounts of money. Our offshore assets have been the most financially successful. Deputy O'Donnell said earlier that we had no special investigations, but they have not gone away. They are still there and we are still working in that offshore space.

We got High Court orders in the last 12 months in respect of transfers of cash and other funds between Irish clearing banks and five offshore jurisdictions, namely, Jersey, Guernsey, Liechtenstein, Switzerland and the Isle of Man. Under those High Court orders, the banks must give us information going back 12 years. That information is coming into us and we are collating it at the moment. We have already sent out 1,500 inquiry letters to people who on first glance, seem to have questions to answer in respect of offshore fund transfers in that 12 year period. The offshore assets investigation is alive and well; it has just moved into a new phase.

I am sorry. How many letters were sent out?

Ms Josephine Feehily

We sent out 1,500. The court orders were only issued recently and the data is coming back in tranches. We will have another letter run before the end of the year, so there will probably be about 2,000 letters sent by then, in response to the data we received under those court orders.

We also received information from a treaty partner, under our double tax treaties, about Irish people who had money in a particular Swiss bank. The numbers are very small - about 36 cases - and we have already collected €2 million. The offshore piece is alive and well.

Under one of the Finance Acts passed a few years ago, we got powers in respect of trusts that had a non-resident trustee. That project is at the grinding through stage. We are learning a lot and we are getting returns. Practitioners who set up a trust with a non-resident trustee must tell us if they are setting them up, so we are getting the information before the event where we can. The offshore element was financially the most lucrative.

All of these investigations have a voluntary phase. In OECD terms, we are deemed to have invented this model and we keep receiving delegations from countries who want to learn how we did this. I will be receiving another delegation very shortly. Essentially, we are going to get much information and before we get it, we give people an opportunity to come in and we give them a lighter penalty regime, in accordance with the code of practice. The Revenue's audit code of practice sets out a penalty regime for unprompted disclosures, prompted disclosures, co-operation, non-co-operation and so on. People who come in under the voluntary phase receive a lighter penalty regime and a guarantee of non-publication. That is in full accordance with our code of practice. We do it for all audits. After that, we work through the cases. It is hard work. The people who do not come in to us pay full penalties and they are published. If they have missed an opportunity to avail of a voluntary disclosure under one scheme, they are not allowed to do so the second time. Some of the people who are receiving one of the 1,500 letters about offshore funds will have availed of our previous investigations. If they made a full disclosure at that time, then the case is closed. However, if they did not do so, then we can reopen the voluntary disclosure if it was incomplete, and then the penalties are particularly severe. They are severe even on the publication side; they are published with a lower threshold.

The subsequent phase is very resource intensive, which is why we use the voluntary phase. It collects a lot of money with minimum effort. It is a "win win" for both parties. They get some discounts.

In terms of yield, has the voluntary phase brought in more than the non-voluntary phase?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes, almost always.

I want to deal with the investigations. As well as the offshore assets, there is also the investigation into trusts and offshore structures, which began in 2009 and has, it seems, been incredibly successful to date, to the tune of €38 million. Ms Feehily mentioned previously that the Revenue Commissioners was investigating certain trusts and was still finding the offshore structures. Could she explain that a bit more? Could she also tell us how long that investigation is likely to continue, how much it is likely to yield at the end, and who exactly it is looking into?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The answer to whether we know how much it will yield is "No." This might sound a bit glib, but it will continue for as long as it takes. One of the points I made about these special investigations - it is in the report - is that we are constantly learning. We learn from something, we get another set of court orders or perhaps we ask for a particular legislative amendment, and we go along to the next phase. Right now, the trust and offshore team is looking at how closed companies and trusts interact in order to try to take money out of businesses without paying tax. That is what I meant earlier when I said this was one of the things we were still looking at. That is a current focus of the investigation. Now that we have the returns, we can look further. We are trying to follow the money all the time. Where did the money go? Did it go offshore? How did it get there? Was the appropriate tax paid along the journey? We try to break down the structures, learn from them, find out whether they were legal or whether there was tax evasion, and then challenge them. It is an iterative process. It is the same way, for example, that we approach the information we get from NAMA. We have information from NAMA in more than 100 cases. Again, we are breaking it down to see what happened - how did the money move around, and was there something we did not know about, or was it okay? That is not to give the Deputy a short answer, but it is a continual process of learning.

I am sure the systems are constantly changing and improving on the evasion side. In terms of our expertise - this was touched upon previously - what are we doing to make sure we are always at the top of our game and not ten steps behind, or even one step behind, the evolving systems?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The biggest thing we are doing to ensure we are ahead rather than behind is to bring in mandatory disclosure regimes. I discussed with Deputy O'Donnell the fact that there is now mandatory disclosure with regard to tax planning schemes. The system of mandatory disclosure on the trust side, which came in a couple of years ago, was particularly useful. Practitioners had to tell us retrospectively - and now they must always tell us - if they set up a trust with an offshore trustee. We have tried to identify, based on our learning, whether there was a point at which we could have found out something, and then put a reporting responsibility on practitioners at that point. That is probably the most useful preventive step we can take.

On a broader issue that is not just about trusts, it is incumbent on us to follow everything as far as we can, challenge where we can, and let it be known that we are doing this. The power of getting a court order that goes back 12 years in respect of people who thought they might have escaped is colossal. The fact that we can get those orders retrospectively, which has a major impact, is the result of a change we recommended in the law a number of years ago, which was accommodated. Trying to identify pinch points and weaknesses and bringing in reporting regimes for practitioners at those points is certainly something we can do. Publicising our successes, publishing the names of defaulters, and letting it be known that we will pursue cases to the bitter end, even though it is resource-intensive, is something else we can do to make people aware that we are still very seriously occupied with these special investigations.

If someone in the office were to leave the special investigations team, could he or she go to work for one of the private firms? There may be gardening leave or something else, but would it be possible?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

So people could use their expertise from the office for purposes they should not?

Ms Josephine Feehily

That is the correct answer, but I do need to embellish it a little. First, I have no information that any member of the team intends to do that. I would not want there to be any doubt in the discussion that if a person did do that, he or she would behave ethically. There is a code of practice in place - that is all it is - for civil servants whereby if a person is going to work in an area in which there might be a conflict of interest, he or she writes to me and I write back saying that he or she should not do this or that. I put some rules around it. It is very much a voluntary regime. Restraint of trade law would make it impossible to have anything else.

As I said earlier when discussing this with Deputy Nolan or Deputy McDonald, we hired some people from the private sector last year, which caused a bit of a flurry. A little bit of interaction both ways is not necessarily bad in terms of skills. I have a strong belief that people behave ethically when they move. The practitioners were concerned, when those people came in to work in the Revenue Commissioners, that they would bring information with them. They came and asked us about this, and we asked them whether they had any reason to believe these people would not behave ethically. People, by and large, are ethical and will not engage in conflict of interest situations. Certainly, the legal position is that people can go anywhere to work.

It is correct to believe that people will behave ethically, but sometimes, where money is concerned, belief is not enough. Sometimes we need structures that are more than just an exchange of letters about potential conflicts of interest.

Ms Josephine Feehily

The Deputy would find it is extremely difficult, in law, to establish a structure that would forbid somebody from going to work in any particular place.

I am not talking about forbidding people from doing so; I am talking about potential safeguards to ensure certain information is not transferred. Knowledge transfer is a good thing, but certain information should not be transferred, and I am asking whether we can protect against that. Maybe we cannot.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I do not know whether it is as big an issue as the Deputy might think. These days, in the context of transparency and so on, we do not mind if people know our working methods. We meet the practitioners every couple of months. In every single one of these special investigations, the processes have been talked through. We have published statements of practice saying how we approach these investigations and how we do our work. It is all out there and in the open. Other than individual personal information, I am not sure there is much information a person could bring that is not already fully understood by practitioners, tax accountants and lawyers, because they have been on the other side of tax appeals with us and they know how we work. There is not a big mystery about how we work.

The reason I am asking is that I am curious because of anecdotal evidence I have heard from London recently. If the Revenue Commissioners has a new innovation in investigating or finds out that it can follow money through certain systems without companies or individuals knowing about it, that might be useful information to pass on.

Ms Josephine Feehily

As soon as we challenge the taxpayer, he or she will know anyway, by and large, because that is the nature of the adversarial system. It goes through appeals and to court. They have recourse to discovery and they have our paper, as well as the freedom of information provisions.

I take the point that it moves to the next iteration.

Ms Josephine Feehily

The issue is skills. I do not like losing skills, as we were discussing earlier, as I then need to try to hire skills back. I am not worried about people carrying intelligence and knowledge with them as it is all out there.

All right. Are there any further investigations planned for this year or the coming years?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I mentioned one earlier when I spoke about the High Court orders from five jurisdictions and the 1,500 letters that have already been issued. That is the most extensive one for this year; there will be about 2,000 letters before the year is out. In addition, we are following through on the Swiss bank cases.

Do they come under the offshore assets investigation?

Ms Josephine Feehily

They will. That is where they will be reflected.

May I ask a question about compliance? There is one thing that intrigues me. I refer to a large case from 2009, shown in figure 84, which yielded €33.5 million. How can a business or entity get away with that? Over what period was the €33.5 million built up? Is the company still trading or the business still in operation? What do the Revenue Commissioners do in such cases? Is there a shortlist whereby the returns are overseen and the Revenue Commissioners ensure they are and continue to be in compliance?

Ms Josephine Feehily

My understanding is that it was a technical rather than a compliance matter. Certainly, it is not typical. I accept that it is particularly large. I must be careful not to identify the case by discussing what the circumstances might have been, but I imagine when it involves such a size in respect of VAT, there is no doubt it would have been a technical matter and I imagine it went a fair distance.

Was it not someone who got away with it over a considerable period and then it caught up with them?

Ms Josephine Feehily

No.

My last question is on the collection of debt amounting to €2.1 billion, of which €780 million dates back five years or more. Is there a weakness in the collection of such outstanding money? Is there a point beyond which the Revenue must abandon it? We encounter may cases in our clinics. Does the Revenue encounter cases of people who owe money but cannot pay it, who cannot even make an arrangement to pay, who find themselves in ill health and then perhaps the sheriff calls? Such people may simply tell the sheriff the same story, regardless of the penalties being imposed on them, that is to say, they simply cannot pay. At that level there seems to be poor management of information between the sheriff and the Revenue. Often it is referred back to the Revenue after the penalties are applied and they are back into the same cycle. How far does the Revenue take that process? When does Revenue quit and decide it has examined a given case and it is not worth pursuing?

Ms Josephine Feehily

This is the eternal dilemma for us. If we did not take it a fair distance the committee, quite rightly, would be asking me a different set of questions on the debt. Every case must be taken a fair distance and judgments must be made about how far to take each case. Every case is considered on the facts at a given point.

I will deal with the sheriff issue before going back to the larger question about the debt. I have encountered such situations because those involved write to me as well. Sometimes we find that until the sheriff first arrives, the taxpayer has not got in touch with us at all and he has simply failed to pay. The demands have gone out but there has been silence. The caseworker will make a judgment, perhaps based on the profile of the case from before. We may believe money is there or that there might be money in a business where there are assets that could be seized and it is judged that the sheriff is the best route. Often it is as a result of the sheriff calling that the taxpayer contacts us. At that point, the sheriff has a warrant and he is entitled to execute it. He is an officer of the court.

Most of the lack of communication takes place in that fashion. The taxpayer ignores the evil day until the sheriff arrives. I repeat the message that if people get a demand and have a problem such as bad health and simply cannot pay, they must inform us of that and set it down on paper. We will ask them hard questions about what happened if we have a track record and can establish that they were in compliance before. Certainly we will listen to them if they can show that the business simply vanished. Some cases might involve a subcontractor to a large business who simply did not get paid. Our strong message is that people should come in with the demand before it gets to the sheriff.

On a slightly separate question, we have good communications with the sheriffs, collectively and individually. However, it requires action from the taxpayer. We cannot take the warrant back from the sheriff because at that point he is entitled to try to execute it if he so wishes. Once it is served, it is there. The strong message is for people to come into us before it gets there.

What is the position with the €780 million?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The Chairman asked if there were gaps and this is dealt with in the report. There are gaps in our data and our analysis. In the case of the age of the debt, however, it is important to point out that tax under appeal or small amounts of tax recovered in a receivership situation are allocated to the year to which they belonged. If something is under appeal and it goes all the way to the High Court or the Supreme Court and we win, then it belongs to 2004 or 2005.

Some of the age of the debt is a function of this. We have acknowledged this in discussions with the Comptroller and Auditor General. At the moment we do not have an age analysis of the debt by reference to how long it has been available for us to collect, as opposed to which tax year it belongs to. We are introducing a system which will help us to do this in the coming months, the first instalment of which will be put in later this year and it will be rolled out next year. We will have a better handle on it then but that does not necessarily mean it will look any prettier. I am unsure about that but we will understand it better.

In the case of compliance the average percentage of tax we collect by the due date for the various tax heads, including PAYE, PRSI and so on, is in the high 90s. In 2010 the figure for VAT was 89%. A great deal of the tax is collected early. We believe firmly in early intervention. Perhaps that is why the sheriff goes to the small guys. We believe it is easier for us to get the money if we are in early. The lacuna, if one exists, is in our understanding better the age profile of our debt, and we have acknowledged as much.

Is €129 million of that sum corporation tax?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

Are the companies involved still trading or in place? Is there some issue? Will all of that money be collected?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The debt is a point-of-time picture. Some of that is simply late. We get approximately 92% of the debt declared in March and ultimately we collect more than 90% of it. It is a snapshot on a given day and that is the amount owed. We work that debt throughout the year. If the company is still in place, much of the corporation tax will be collected. If it is gone, it will fall into the write-off tables that will be seen next year. It is an active process and the debt, the shape, the components and the businesses in that debt space are changing on a daily basis.

We are discussing debt for five years and over.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Some of that refers to appeals put back. If it is five years or older and it is corporation tax, the chances are it is an appeal which was not available to us for collection and it was then resolved and it is now available to us. We will then have to pursue that corporation tax collection. In a receivership situation or a liquidation - examinership cases are not usually that old - often those involved find when they examine the books that returns made for the relevant years underdeclared the position. They send us new returns at that point using historical data and we put that data into the year to which it belongs. However, it only appears on our record now although it relates to 2005 or 2006. That is the way the accounting has worked up to now. We need to get a better handle on it.

Does that mean the €2.1 billion figure is not as awful as it looks?

Ms Josephine Feehily

No.

The Revenue has a handle on most of it and is pursuing it. The case has gone through appeals and is still back on the Revenue's books. It does not emerge as a write-off of some description or a substantial part of it will not arrive as a write-off. It is collectible and the Revenue is after it. Is that correct?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes. We are after it. A portion of it will end up as a write-off in individual cases. If it is a typical liquidation such as the one I described above where the P35 forms for five years are taken together and there is a significant amount of information available, it may well be written off. I have no wish to mislead the committee. The liquidator is doing his job by bringing the records up to date. The tax gets put onto the accounts. However, when the liquidator finalises the liquidation, we will get our preference, whatever it amounts to.

How much does the Revenue write off each year?

Ms Josephine Feehily

In 2010 we wrote off almost €300 million. That was up, not greatly but somewhat, on the previous year. That was not untypical of the figures in the past two or three years. Approximately 80% of that is either liquidations, receiverships or businesses that have simply gone.

Is it following the same pattern this year?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The pattern appears to be the same this year for liquidations, receiverships and cessations in general. To July this year we have written off €186.8 million.

What is the tax take for the year?

Ms Josephine Feehily

We are on target across the tax heads. There are slight variations. The Exchequer figures are published by the Department of Finance every month and an analysis is done every quarter. The change in VAT has yet to come through so we are not sure what that will mean. The end of August target for the Exchequer was €20.298 billion and the tax take was €20.5 billion. It is slightly ahead of target when one takes all the tax heads together.

I ask Ms Feehily to clarify a small point. She referred to the 300 directors of the financial institutions on foot of the CIROC report and said 280 of them were closed, 20 are still ongoing and the Department took in €1.3 million to date. How many directors or top managers did that involve?

Ms Josephine Feehily

300 was the full-----

The 280 involved did not all pay-----

Ms Josephine Feehily

I said I did not have that information and would write to the Deputy. At a point in time 280 were involved. I understand the figure is now 290. I am quite sure I read a few more have closed.

The make-up of the Revenue ten would be interesting.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I will write to the Deputy with the as much granular information as possible. When one or two people are involved, there are issues of confidentiality.

Mr. John Buckley

I have nothing further to add to what I said at the beginning of the meeting. The Revenue tends to respond very well to our suggestions, as is clear from the evidence, in terms of quantifying the loss overhang, moving to calculate the period of credit for people who have debts and so on. Adjustments are constantly happening. It is down to us all to keep improving the system by continuing to have a dialogue with each other.

One major issue to be flagged is the losses that will occur as a result of deleveraging in the banks and how such loans will be moved on. They may be put into a special purpose vehicle and sold or sold as assets. The form in which it is done may be critical to the future impact on the State. It was an important point flagged in the course of the discussion and Revenue should monitor it.

I thank Ms Feehily and her officials for attending the meeting. We have dealt with the 2009 and 2010 annual reports and they allowed the discussion to encompass both years and current aspects of their work. It is something we want to achieve with most of the Accounting Officers.

In dealing with the 2009 annual report I propose to dispose of all the chapters except Chapter 15 which relates to counteracting the smuggling of tobacco products. We would like to deal with the issue again. Some members are being briefed during this week and may have some questions on it.

We should leave the 2010 annual report open because we have had a very good discussion on the overall report and we may want to return to some issues. We will not delay disposing of it.

The witnesses withdrew.

Is there any other business?

I wish to raise a small issue in private session.

We will deal with the matter. Next week we will deal with the annual report on Vote 40 - the HSE, chapters 38 to 45, inclusive, and the HSE annual financial statements for 2010.

The committee went into private session at 1.55 p.m. and adjourned at 2.05 p.m. until 10 a.m on Thursday, 29 September 2011.
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