COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 17 May 2012

Business of Committee

Chairman

Are the minutes of the previous meeting on 10 May 2012 agreed to? Agreed. Are there any matters arising from the minutes?

Item No. 3 concerns correspondence received since our meeting on Thursday, 10 May 2012.

Item 3.1, correspondence received on 10 May 2012 from the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources regarding forwarding a briefing paper and matters to be considered at its meeting on 17 May, to be noted and published.

Item 3.2, correspondence dated 9 May 2012 from Mr. Ronan Lenihan, Principal Clerk of the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform regarding proposed inquiry into the banking crisis. To be noted. A copy of the report will be forwarded to that committee in due course.

Item 3.3, correspondence dated 9 May 2012 from Mr. John Murphy, Secretary General of the Deportment of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, regarding providing information requested at a meeting on 29 March 2012.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

I note that Mr. Murphy has got back to us in a considerable amount of detail quite quickly. We are often critical of Departments because they do not revert to us in time with enough detail, so it might be a good idea for the committee to write to that Department to thank them for getting back to us so swiftly with so much detail. The same would apply to the correspondence in 3.17 from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, if the committee agrees.

Chairman

Yes, we can do so.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

There appears to be a deluge of correspondence to this meeting from Departments. Has the Chairman been playing a role in prompting them all to get back to us? A lot of people got back to us for this meeting.

Chairman

I am aware of the members' wishes.

Item 3.4, correspondence dated 10 May 2012, from Mr. Gerard Moyne, life member, Irish Red Cross, regarding the Irish Red Cross, to be noted. We will supply Mr. Moyne with a copy of the report on the Irish Red Cross at this stage. We will not be taking further action on the Irish Red Cross.

Item 3.5, correspondence dated 11 May 2012, from Mr. John Moran, Secretary General, Department of Finance, regarding internal and external reports into the compilation of the 2010 general Government debt. To be noted and published.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

As regards that correspondence, there is a reference at the end which states, "Please feel free to contact me if you or your committee have any queries". It also refers to hearing "early next week in relation to the other unfortunate European scheduling clash discussed with your office this week". What is that about?

Clerk to the Committee

It is something we are going to come to on the work programme.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

Okay.

Clerk to the Committee

The Chairman can probably deal with it then. The Accounting Officer has to accompany the Taoiseach to the European Summit next week, so we will be coming to that in the work programme to reschedule our business.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

Thank you.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Through the Chair, Mr. Moran is not appearing before the committee.

Chairman

It is on next Thursday.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Is that being deferred?

Clerk to the Committee

It will be a matter for the committee.

Chairman

It is on the agenda for 7 June.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

That is fine.

Chairman

These things are happening with the Department of Finance because of regular appearances by its officials in Europe at different meetings there.

Item 3.6, correspondence dated 14 May 2012, from Mr. Gerry O'Hanlon, director general, Central Statistics Office, providing information requested at our meeting on 3 May 2012. To be noted.

Item 3.7, correspondence dated 14 May 2012, from Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, Secretary General, Department of Education and Skills, regarding providing information previously requested by the committee regarding the school transport scheme. To be noted. A copy of the correspondence is to be forwarded to Mr. Martin Nolan, chief executive of Bus Éireann, who made the original complaint.

Item 3.8, correspondence dated 14 May 2012, from Mr. Brendan Ryan, chief executive, Courts Service, regarding providing information previously requested by the committee regarding stamp duty on legal costs at Circuit Court level. To be noted. We will forward the reply to the original complainant who wished to remain anonymous.

Item 3.9, correspondence dated 10 May 2012, from Mr. Martin Callinan, Commissioner of An Garda Síochána, regarding providing a breakdown of legal fees as previously requested by the committee. To be noted and published.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

May I refer to the correspondence from Garda Commissioner Callinan?

Chairman

Yes.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

What struck me about the information that he supplied to us - I do not know if this prompted the communication - was the large increase in the number of cases from 2010 to 2011. It has increased by almost a half but the correspondence I saw did not appear to cover why such a large increase had occurred. Could we re-contact the Commissioner to clarify why there has been such an increase in the number of cases from year to year?

Chairman

Yes, we can do that.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

Good.

Chairman

Item 3.10, correspondence dated 14 May 2012, from Mr. William Treacy, Portlaoise, Co. Laois, regarding previous Turf Club correspondence with the committee. To be noted. We have detailed correspondence both from the Turf Club and from Horse Racing Ireland at item 3.14 below.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

We can deal with it when we come to it.

Chairman

The Deputy can raise it at that stage.

Item 3.11, correspondence dated 14 May 2012, from Ms Clare McGrath, chairperson, Office of Public Works regarding sale of the permanent representation office in Brussels. To be noted and published. We had asked for that information.

Item 3.12, correspondence dated 14 May 2012, from Mr. John Murphy, Secretary General, Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, regarding CRH and the Competition Authority. To be noted. We might come back to that matter at a later date.

Item 3.13, correspondence dated 15 May 2012, from Mr. Ray Mitchell, assistant national director of parliamentary and regulatory affairs, Health Service Executive, regarding payments made to GPs for deceased patients. To be noted and published. I have to say that the HSE has studiously avoided the question put to it, which goes back to the Committee of Public Accounts of 2002-07. It was discovered then that GPs were overpaid for deceased patients. Instead of recouping the money, the HSE has allowed an exchange to develop with the GPs' representative body, so that a case can now be made whereby the GPs are owed money, according to them. When it comes to collecting money by the HSE there seems to be one rule for individuals and another rule for professional groups within the State. At one meeting of our committee we dealt with the HSE which had issued letters from debt collectors to individuals who failed to pay their hospital fees, yet GPs never got letters trying to reclaim this money. I take issue with the HSE over that. It is a matter to which we can return when the HSE representatives come before us.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

When is the HSE due back before the committee?

Chairman

Within the next few weeks.

Clerk to the Committee

Yes, it will be sometime around the end of next month.

Chairman

Item 3.14, correspondence dated 15 May 2012, from Mr. Brian Kavanagh, chief executive, Horse Racing Ireland, regarding Mr. William Treacy. We can take those two items now. Does Deputy Fleming wish to comment on them?

Deputy Sean Fleming

There are two items of correspondence - one directly from Mr. William Treacy, and this reply from Horse Racing Ireland to a letter we sent to them some time ago. The secretariat might help us with some clarification on this. I note that in the opening paragraph of Mr. Treacy's letter to us, he says, "I have been made aware that the Public Accounts Committee has at its disposal the legal advice of a solicitor or legal counsel to assist in dealing with issues like this". Perhaps we can get clarification on that. I know there is a parliamentary legal advice service here in the Oireachtas. There is a direct conflict between Mr. Treacy and the bodies we have been in correspondence with. He is raising the issue of legal advice. Is that a valid approach for this committee to take? The secretariat might clarify that issue because it is an important one. Mr. Treacy feels we are getting evasive answers which do not deal with the substance of the original circumstances.

Chairman

Perhaps the clerk will deal with that.

Deputy Sean Fleming

Yes, thank you.

Clerk to the Committee

Obviously, the committee has access to legal advice but not to deal with such issues as complaints by the public against another public body. Our legal advice is very much confined to our own activities and the way the committee conducts its affairs.

There is a problem with Mr. Treacy. In one sense, a number of complaints come into the committee in which we are asked to adjudicate on the actions of a public body. That is not primarily the role of the Committee of Public Accounts in the sense that there is an Ombudsman, etc, where one can take a complaint. A link has been made with funding where we give funding to a public body and all of a sudden there is complaint by a member of the public against that body. The link back to the Committee of Public Accounts is tenuous and not strong.

Unfortunately, it is difficult to pursue an issue such as Mr. Treacy's. There are other mechanisms through the Ombudsman or through the Garda Síochána. That is the difficultly we have with situations like that.

Deputy Sean Fleming

The clerk is essentially saying the role of the Committee of Public Accounts is limited in what it can do in a dispute between an individual and a public body.

Clerk to the Committee

Yes.

Deputy Sean Fleming

Perhaps we might communicate with Mr. Treacy and offer the suggestion that the committee formally will give the correspondence to the Comptroller and Auditor General so that when he is auditing these bodies the next time he can check if there is any issue with the use of public funds and that they were properly utilised.

The committee, with Mr. Treacy's consent, could also send the correspondence to the Ombudsman. He knows that option is always there but he felt going through the democratically elected system was the way he wanted to do it and he may not want to send it to the Ombudsman. However, if the committee was to do it on his behalf, perhaps the Ombudsman would investigate the case and report to the committee as well as Mr. Treacy.

The clerk is saying the committee's legal advice does not cover the adjudication of the case. It is only procedural aspects on how we conduct our business.

Clerk to the Committee

The committee cannot get involved.

Chairman

We got legal advice. It is open to the committee to send the correspondence to the Comptroller and Auditor General's office.

Deputy Sean Fleming

Maybe we could also send it to the Ombudsman. However, I would not send it without Mr. Treacy's consent.

Chairman

If Mr. Treacy believes his complaint should go to the Ombudsman, he should it send it to her.

Deputy Sean Fleming

We might communicate with him on both of those issues.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I have been reading the correspondence and we will take into account any issues that are relevant to Horse Racing Ireland, in particular. We receive a number of these types of correspondence where there is a dispute between an individual and a public body. Part of the procedure in that situation is to inform them they have a remedy in recourse to the Ombudsman, where that is appropriate, and they should consider it. We cannot get into the space where there is a dispute between an employee and an employer or between a citizen and a public body. We will look at the systemic issues that arise in this matter.

Deputy Sean Fleming

Will McCarthy consider this as part of his next audit?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes.

Deputy Sean Fleming

We might communicate with Mr. Treacy on the conversation we have had.

Chairman

Yes.

No. 3.15, correspondence received 15 May 2012 from Mr. Aidan Dunning, Secretary General, Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources on his opening statement. This is to be noted and published.

No. 3.16, correspondence dated 15 May 2012 from Ms Geraldine Tallon, Secretary General, Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, re Mahon tribunal costs. This will be noted and published.

No. 3.17, correspondence dated 16 May 2012 from Mr. David Cooney, Secretary General, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, re providing information requested at the meeting of 26 April 2012. This will be noted and published.

Deputy Derek Nolan

I asked the Secretary General about the Irish technology leadership group at the meeting. From the records, the group has received $772,000 since its establishment in 2009. At the time of the meeting, the Secretary General clearly had no idea how much money was going to the group. He had to check it as it was clearly not on the radar. It seems like quite a lot of money. In fairness, the Department has tried to answer my query but it is very vague and gives no specifics as to what this group is doing or concrete information for what this money is used. It does say the money is to pay for its secretariat which is separate from its commercial enterprises. Then again, it does have a venture capital business associated with it. I would like to see more information on how that structure runs, the exact things it does, how it ensures the money does not go into any commercial enterprises and what benefit there is for the State and Irish companies.

Chairman

We will seek that clarification.

No. 3.18, correspondence received 16 May 2012 from Ms Clare McGrath, chairman, Office of Public Works, re opening statement. This will be noted and published.

On correspondence, we did not receive any response to the inquiry about the Poolbeg issue from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. Have we written to the Department?

Clerk to the Committee

We got a response some weeks ago.

Chairman

Yes, but we agreed to pursue it further in terms of a timeframe and what actions have been taken so we can be specific about it.

Clerk to the Committee

Yes, that is outstanding. We will do it.

Chairman

Yes.

The committee has received the Irish Medicines Board annual report 2010, Mayo County Enterprise Board, annual report 2010, An Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, financial statements for the year ending 31 December 2010, NUI Galway, consolidated financial statements for the year ended 30 September 2010 and St. Patrick's College, Drumcondra, annual financial report for the year ended 30 September 2010. These will be noted.

Regarding the work programme, the Accounting Officer of the Department of Finance is not in a position to give evidence next Thursday as he has to accompany the Taoiseach to the special European summit on Wednesday next. Given that the summit was only arranged last week, Mr. Moran notified the clerk as soon as his difficulty became apparent. The committee will postpone his hearing until 7 June 2012. Is that agreed? Agreed.

On Thursday next, the sub-group will meet in private on the banking report. We have been putting the report together and it was agreed at yesterday's meeting that we would meet again next week.