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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 14 Jun 2012

Special Report No. 77 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Dublin Docklands Development Authority

Ms Loretta Lambkin (Chief Executive, Dublin Docklands Development Authority) called and examined.

The next item is No. 7, special report No. 77 of the Comptroller and Auditor General on the Dublin Docklands Development Authority. Before we begin, I remind members, witnesses and those in the Visitors Gallery to turn off their mobile phones, as interference from them affects the sound quality of transmission of the meeting.

I advise witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 158 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister or the merits or objectives of such policy or policies.

I welcome Ms Lambkin, chief executive of the Dublin Docklands Development Authority, and ask her to introduce her officials.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I was appointed chair of the Dublin Docklands Development Authority on 1 March for an interim period. With me today are Mr. Joe O'Sullivan, acting secretary of the Dublin Docklands Development Authority, and Mr. John Crawley, its finance adviser.

Who is present from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government?

Mr. David Walsh

I am from the Department's environment division. I am present as an observer.

I invite Mr. McCarthy to introduce the report.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The Dublin Docklands Development Authority was established under an Act of the Oireachtas in 1997 as successor to the Custom House Docks Development Authority. It now has planning and development functions for more than 500 ha of land in the docklands area. On the basis that it was a State body with a commercial mandate, the audit of the authority's financial statements was carried out by a commercial audit firm up to and including 2009. Responsibility for the audit was transferred to the Comptroller and Auditor General in 2010. Accordingly, the first financial audit of the authority by my office was carried out for the financial year ended 31 December 2010 and the audit report on those accounts was issued on 7 November 2011. The audit report on the authority's 2011 financial statements was issued last month.

The special report before the committee today has been prepared to give a fuller account of the overall financial status and administration of the authority, the authority's involvement in the purchase of the Irish Glass Bottle site and how the authority's planning function is being administered. I will outline briefly some of the key findings in the report on these respects.

The authority's financial statements for 2010 reported a deficit of almost €2 million for the year. They showed that at the end of 2010 the authority had current liabilities of €32 million, including a bank overdraft of €12 million. The authority's capacity to fund itself depended on the continuing availability of banking facilities until such time as it could liquidate its property assets and collect its debts. Because it had limited cash reserves, a failure to realise projected income or a requirement to advance the timing of payment liabilities would require the identification of other sources of funding. The authority reported a surplus of more than €1 million for 2011 and liabilities at year end of more than €26 million. It once again drew attention to the basis on which it considered it was appropriate to prepare the financial statements on a going concern basis.

A key factor contributing to the authority's weak financial position was its participation in a joint venture with private developers to buy and develop the Irish Glass Bottle site. In January 2007 the authority and its partner in the joint venture company, Becbay Limited, purchased the Irish Glass Bottle site for €412 million. Stamp duty and other costs brought the total acquisition cost to €431 million, of which €291 million was borrowed. Further substantial costs arose from the need to carry out remediation works on the site. The authority provided equity and loan funding for the joint venture company and guaranteed the repayment of loans by Becbay Limited up to a level of €29.1 million, plus interest. Ultimately, the loans of Becbay Limited which were provided by Anglo Irish Bank and AIB were taken over by the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA. A settlement was agreed between the authority and NAMA in July 2011, under which the authority agreed to transfer to NAMA a portfolio of property assets to settle sums due under the guarantee. Ultimately, the cost to the authority of its involvement in the Irish Glass Bottle site venture was approximately €52 million.

The examination noted a number of concerns in regard to the authority's decision to become involved in the venture. In October 2006 the authority's management presented to the executive board an assessment of the level of investment, benefits and risks of the project, but a detailed analysis of these factors, commensurate with the scale of the proposed investment, does not seem to have been carried out. While management advised the board that the property market in 2006 was overheated, it nevertheless recommended the investment for strategic reasons. The authority did not obtain its own independent valuation when it was deciding on the bid Becbay Limited should make for the site. However, the examination noted that after the bid had been made, professional valuers engaged by Becbay Limited confirmed, for bank borrowing purposes, that the value of the site as at 3 November 2006 was €412 million.

The authority obtained ministerial approval to increase its borrowing capacity up to its statutory limit of €127 million and engage in the joint venture. The information submitted to the Department in early October 2006 in support of the increase stated the value of the site was approximately €220 million. No documentary evidence was located on audit to indicate that the authority had formally updated the Department when the decision was made to bid almost double that amount. Consequently, consent by both the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the Minister with responsibility for public expenditure and reform for increased borrowing and the authority's participation in the joint venture was evidently given on the understanding an investment to the value of around €220 million was being contemplated. The value of the site has reduced considerably since it was purchased in 2007, as it was valued on behalf of the authority at €45 million in early January 2011.

In the course of the examination my office reviewed the management of the executive board's business around the decision to invest in the joint venture. A key concern was in the area of management of conflicts of interest. In general, there is a risk of conflicts of interest occurring where the board of a State body includes persons either with an interest in the business regulated by the body or who provide services for the body. In the case of the authority, some board members disclosed their connections with banks that were providing finance for the Irish Glass Bottle site joint venture and the authority took steps to assure itself that its decision-making in respect of the funding decisions was in accordance with its own code of conduct. Advice to the authority from its own legal advisers on this matter concluded that the board was correct in how it had handled the disclosed declarations of interest with regard to funding. The examination noted that the executive board minutes did not record disclosure of other personal, professional or business interests of board members that could have represented a conflict of interest in respect of the acquisition of the Irish Glass Bottle site.

The examination looked at the response of the authority to the findings of the High Court in a case taken against the authority regarding a section 25 application made by a development company, North Quay Investments Limited. The development in question extended to over 50,000 sq. m of commercial space and included the provision of a building that was to become the new headquarters for Anglo Irish Bank. In October 2008 the court found against the authority in a number of respects related to its handling of the application. As a result, the section 25 certificate issued by the authority to the development company was quashed and the development halted. The examination also noted that the draft planning scheme prepared by the authority for the Poolbeg area was subsequently found to be deficient in certain respects, resulting in the scheme not being completed.

The authority's section 25 application process was amended in December 2008. The amended process was found to be satisfactory in a 2010 review report commissioned by the authority. However, due to the substantial reduction in the number and scale of planning applications received by the Authority since the conclusion of the High Court case, there was limited scope for my office to examine the effectiveness of those revised procedures in the course of this examination. Substantial further detail on these matters is in the special report.

I invite Ms Lambkin to make her opening statement.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I welcome the opportunity to address the committee today and to answer questions on the special report undertaken by the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Dublin Docklands Development Authority's annual report and financial statements for 2011. I have circulated a short briefing paper, as requested, which I hope will be of help to members. My colleagues and I will make every attempt to assist with the committee's questions today.

The Dublin Docklands Development Authority understands there is very considerable and legitimate political and public interest in the authority. For several years, the authority has generated considerable controversy. Substantial costs have been incurred as a result of a number of decisions taken by the authority and we are engaged in a high-profile and controversial court action. This morning I want to communicate three things very clearly. First, on behalf of the authority, I want to apologise for past serious errors of judgment that were made. It is clear several decisions taken by the authority, particularly in the purchase of the Irish Glass Bottle site, were, in retrospect, wrong and have exposed the authority to considerable costs. Since 2009, under the chairmanship of Professor Niamh Brennan, the outgoing executive board of the authority has been very clear that it will not attempt to ignore these judgment errors that were made or to understate the consequences of those for the authority or for anyone else.

Second, I confirm to the committee the authority continues to do everything in its power to deliver on its statutory role, fulfil its public service remit as professionally and efficiently as possible while in the process minimising further cost to the authority. We have instituted substantial procedural reforms to our planning, financial and management systems. The committee will be aware that the authority is to be wound up over the next 18 months but that new structures and arrangements are to be put in place to ensure the focus on the regeneration of the Docklands project.

Third, I want to also remind people that many aspects of the docklands project were successful and there is much of which we should be proud. Inevitably, and correctly, in recent years the attention has focused on what went wrong and where there were poor investment and management decisions which is understandable. However, in the history of the docklands project - going back to the late 1990s when it was established as a more ambitious successor to the Custom House Docks Development Authority - there have been some very important achievements.

A significant part of Dublin city centre has been transformed into a dynamic and modern thriving community. Thousands of jobs have been created in the docklands including 20,000 alone in the International Financial Services Centre, in the legal services hub and the growing digital sector in the Grand Canal Dock area. Some of the finest office buildings in the country have been built and are occupied by major national and international employers such as Citibank, Bank of New York Mellon, State Street Bank, McCann Fitzgerald and of course a new wave of technology companies led by Google and Facebook. The Docklands is a radically improved urban environment with a population of over 26,000, an increase of 53% since the 1990s which has been facilitated by the delivery of over 3,300 housing units under section 25 planning schemes. Educational standards and resources for what was once a very deprived area in the country have been transformed to the benefit of local children and the community. The authority has invested over €6.2 million in a range of education programmes for children enabling them to participate in the regeneration of the docklands area. New cultural and tourism facilities have been developed and opened, animating the area with attractions including the Bord Gáis Energy Theatre, the O2 and the Convention Centre Dublin, attracting both domestic and international visitors to the docklands every day.

While these successes have been somewhat overshadowed by poor investment decisions made in the past, they are an important part of the story of the docklands. The particular focus of today's meeting is the special report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the authority's annual report and accounts for 2011. As the committee is aware, the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General was assigned responsibility for the audit of the docklands authority commencing with the accounting year ended 31 December 2010. The purpose of the special report was to record the overall financial status of the authority, the process, procedures and financial implications of the authority's decision to purchase the former Irish Glass Bottle site and how the planning functions and governance arrangements of the authority are being administered.

While the report identifies some shortcomings in the authority's procedures and decision-making in the past, most notably in the context of the 2006 part-purchase of the former Irish Glass Bottle site, the general conclusion of the special report is that the authority has taken steps to scale back its operations in light of its changed financial circumstances. It has also substantially implemented the recommendations of previous reviews of planning and financial management systems since 2010.

In its 2011 annual report, the authority reported a surplus of €1.1 million in 2011, compared to a deficit of €1.98 million in 2010 and a deficit of €213 million in 2008. However, the authority also recognises continued uncertainties for its financial position but has concluded there is a reasonable expectation the authority will be able to meet its liabilities as they fall due for the foreseeable future.

Expensive lessons have been learnt and the docklands authority today is a very different organisation to what it was six years ago when the Irish Glass Bottle site was purchased by the joint venture company, Becbay Limited. It is clear the authority's involvement in the purchase of the Irish Glass Bottle site was a serious error of judgment. Instead of contributing to the wider docklands project, it has harmed and undermined the delivery of that project.

While the authority is not the only development body to have been impacted by the recent property downturn, as an organisation we have paid a heavy price but have been able to stabilise our financial position and to set the docklands project on a sound footing as it evolves into the next phase of its delivery.

It should also be noted that there remain a number of strategic sites in the docklands area, specifically in the North Lotts area, between the Convention Centre and the Point Village, and in the Grand Canal Dock area, comprising approximately 20 hectares, which have the potential to deliver a further 3,000 homes and over 300,000 sq. m of commercial space which could, in turn, deliver an estimated 10,000 new jobs and a significant return to the taxpayer in the future.

There is much to be done to complete the regeneration of the docklands. We will continue to do all in our power to progress that mandate and facilitate whatever arrangements the Government decides to put in place to manage the docklands project into the future.

Finally, I want to stress that we wish to provide the committee with as much information as possible today. However, as the committee will be aware, the transaction to purchase the Irish Glass Bottle site is the subject of a legal action and we are somewhat constrained in the comments we can make on that matter at this time. We will do all we can to answer questions from our examination of materials relating to the issues being examined today.

May we publish the opening statement?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Yes.

To put today's meeting in context, the principle witness, Ms Loretta Lambkin, is the chief executive officer of the Dublin Docklands Authority and the accountable person to the Committee of Public Accounts. Her evidence must be the starting point for our examination. She is also in possession of the authority's records.

One of the problems that will arise is that Ms Lambkin was not the chief executive officer when key decisions were taken especially with regard to the Irish Glass Bottle site. Accordingly, it is highly likely we will have to broaden our lines of inquiry outside the current chief executive officer, Ms Lambkin.

Members will be aware from last week's meeting that the outgoing chairperson of the authority, Professor Niamh Brennan, is not in a position to attend today's meeting. Professor Brennan was appointed after it became evident that the authority was in trouble. To be fair to her, she has overseen major changes at the authority. This is clear from her statement on the 2011 accounts before the committee today. I will not prejudge members' wishes but it is likely we will have to discuss the running of the authority with Professor Brennan to establish what she found when was appointed and the extent of the changes necessary after that. My view is she is a key witness.

The key decisions that lead to the difficulties for the authority relate to the Irish Glass Bottle site. The clerk has already indicated to the oversight Department that the committee will want to examine its role. Accordingly, the Accounting Officer of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and officials from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform will be called separately. An official from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government is attending the committee this morning. Members should note detailed discussions with the Department's involvement and oversight of the authority will be the matter that will be the subject of another meeting, the likely date for which is 12 July 2012. We will review the evidence taken today to establish whether other witnesses need to be called as part of the committee's examination of the report. Finally, as has already been stated, there is a legal case, involving the authority and one of the companies to which it was a party in a joint venture, of which we must be cognisant.

I welcome the witnesses to today's committee meeting. Like fellow committee members, I look forward to the opportunity to explore the important matters raised in the Comptroller and Auditor General's special report.

The DDDA has done a valuable job in terms of job creation, the provision of housing and the development of amenities and facilities in what was once one of the State's most disadvantaged areas, and Ms Lambkin correctly acknowledged that in her opening statement. However, against that backdrop, it is putting it charitably to state that these achievements have been overshadowed by what she termed as the "considerable controversy" generated by certain decisions taken by the authority in the mid-2000s. We, as a country, are dealing with the social and economic fallout of the hubris and unmitigated risk-taking which became the hallmark of that period. Nothing symbolises the circumstances around that particular issue better than the purchase of the site by the Dublin Docklands Development Authority in a joint venture with Becbay Limited.

I acknowledge Ms Lambkin's efforts, and those of her colleagues, to address as best she can the legacy issues with which they are confronted. The special report represents an important step in opening this egregious matter up to parliamentary and public scrutiny.

I wish to focus my comments and questions largely on the purchase of the Irish Glass Bottle site in late 2006 and early 2007. The site has a colourful and eventful history. State resources were effectively invested in the joint venture company to purchase this site, and yet many core principles and requirements demanded of such a process appear to have been in some ways discarded or bypassed.

First, a corporate decision was made by the authority over a series of three meetings over a three week period in October 2006, with the then exposure limit of €35 million, to enter into an arrangement with Becbay Limited to purchase the Irish Glass Bottle site. For this investment, an apparent commitment appeared to have been made that there would be a return approximated at 26% of profits to be received by the DDDA. It seems that the authority could have approached this in two different ways. It was notified that the site would become the subject of a bidding war and that there was considerable interest in the site from other interests. This being the case, the DDDA could have taken the prudential option to sit back, let the market decide on the value of the site, master plan it, regulate it and provide the optimum outcome for the community in that part of the city. Instead, the organisation chose to go in off the deep end, throw caution to the wind and deal with the consequences thereafter. Why did the authority choose not to complete a planning scheme for the Poolbeg peninsula, especially in advance of embarking on such a monumental development project. I think Ms Lambkin would accept that this was a grave error.

Can we as well establish, if possible, through board minutes and through Ms Lambkin's information, who contacted whom in the DDDA involvement in this project? If we could establish this fact, it would prove helpful in establishing the authority's motivation for participating in such a joint venture. For example, was it the Dublin Docklands Development Authority that contacted Mr. Bernard McNamara in the first instance or was it Mr. McNamara who contacted the authority?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I will start by taking Deputy Nash's first question, regarding the motivation for the authority to get involved in such a project. This particular transaction followed a precedent where we would have purchased lands previously in the past in developing our master plan objectives. Going back to 1987 when the Custom House Docks Development Authority was established, we would have acquired lands and entered into arrangements with joint-venture partners - it was British Land and Hardwicke properties at the time - to deliver the very successful IFSC project. Similarly, in 1998, the authority acquired lands, the old gasworks site in the Grand Canal Dock area, and entered into a series of joint ventures, again to deliver that whole site. There was a typical course of development that we would have followed at the time.

On the other motivation back to 1997, in our original master plan we identified the Poolbeg area as an area that would benefit from the processes of a section 25 planning scheme. It was also highlighted at the time that the option to purchase land would enable the authority greater control in delivering social amenity and those less commercially-desirable elements of the master plan. That is essentially the rationale for why the authority would enter into an ownership participation of such a site.

In terms of the experience of the authority previously in getting involved in joint ventures, would it be fair to say that considerably more time and more robust processes would have guided the process? In this situation, we are talking about a scenario where three meetings took place over a three-week period in 2006. The critical point here is that this decision appeared to have been taken without being informed by any strategic business plan in the absence of any independent advice in terms of a valuation for the site. In the absence of any evidence to suggest otherwise, the value of the site appears to have been determined on the say so of Mr. McNamara, who was a key proponent in this project.

I draw Ms Lambkin to paragraph 3.19 of the special report. That also refers to the fact that the executive pointed out to the board that there were serious risks involved in terms of the exposure of the organisation and that this bid was taking place in an "over-heated" market and, indeed, at the top end of an over-heated market.

Critical to this as well is the involvement of then senior members of the board, Mr. FitzPatrick and Mr. Bradshaw, and of course, Mr. McNamara was considered to be one of the top businessmen in the country at the time. Given what is contained in the report, and reflecting on paragraph 3.19, and the absence of risk assessments, business plans and independent valuations, it may or may not be unfair to posit this, but I will suggest it anyway. Was there a view taken that these gentlemen could do no wrong, that who was the executive to question and seriously challenge the wisdom of these extremely successful businessmen, as they were considered at the time?

Would Ms Lambkin agree that this was not the most prudent way to spend public money, that the processes were flawed? Why did the authority not consider itself to have any obligation whatsoever to the taxpayer to obtain any independent valuation of the site before a decision was made on the bid, given that the executive had already put the board on red alert over the potential exposure on this? Can Ms Lambkin elaborate on this point?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

As I pointed out in my opening remarks, we acknowledge that there were serious errors of judgment made in relation to the purchase of the Irish Glass Bottle site. As I mentioned, the site was purchased to achieve the objective set out under the master plan. However, the process was flawed in activating that transaction.

I refer to the valuation specifically. There was a valuation history that the authority commissioned over the years. However, they did rely on, or defer to, the expertise of Mr. McNamara in coming to the final tender bid. We acknowledge that an independent valuation should have been commissioned prior to the authority entering into any sort of joint venture, particularly of this scale.

Second, in regard to the business case, there was no formal business case presented for this project. For an investment of this scale, that should have been the case. The practice-----

Why was that not the case?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

The practice at the time was that board papers were brought forward to the board by the management. These board papers would have addressed a large number of issues related to risk and the positives and negatives of those investments, and these would have been discussed at the meetings. However, I cannot comment as to why there was not a business case prepared as I was not at that particular meeting or involved in the case.

It would be helpful if the committee got the opportunity to reflect on the minutes of those board meetings, particularly the three meetings that took place in October, so that we could draw some conclusions. There is a serious absence of information and a paper trail around how these decisions were made.

My understanding is that two internal analyses of a possible valuation on the site had been done previously and that one independent assessment had been done on one previous occasion by a leading valuation company, but we do not have any of the evidence around that. It would be helpful for our own deliberations to secure such documentation and any supporting information that would have been provided to board members at the time.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I could provide the Deputy with some information on the valuations here.

Would Ms Lambkin, please?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

As I mentioned, there was a valuation history on the site. In June 2005, the authority obtained an independent valuation and that placed a value of €240 million on the site. The valuation was based on a plot ratio of 2:1, defined as the gross floor area of the building relative to its area. This represents the development capacity of the site. An internal evaluation was undertaken by the authority in 2005 at a plot ratio of 3:1, and this placed a valuation of €303 million on the site. On 12 October, during the period in which those meetings were taking place, a further internal valuation was undertaken based on a plot ratio of 2.5:1, which valued the site at €264 million. I can confirm that the authority did not obtain a further valuation prior to placing the bid. Informal advice was received from agents that would have put the bid at or above the €400 million mark.

Who gave that informal advice?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I do not have that information to hand. I am simply reading from the records and the minutes of the time that informal advice was provided. Subsequent to the bid being placed the company, Becbay Limited, secured an independent valuation for the purpose of obtaining financing from Anglo Irish Bank, which valued the site at €412 million. It is also my understanding of the board minutes that at the meeting of 24 October the authority recognised the expertise and experience of Mr. McNamara in this regard. If I can take the liberty, I will quote the relevant minute, which stated, "recognising the expertise and experience of Mr McNamara and if he had some additional information which convinced him that the bid should be increased, then the Board agreed that Mr McNamara could be allowed to increase the bid as he saw fit to a maximum of €437 million". We acknowledge it was a mistake to rely so heavily on our joint venture partner.

A statutory agency found it acceptable to rely on the advice of the key player in this project even though it was responsible for spending the taxpayer's money.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

They are the facts as I have reported them.

It would be helpful if we could get a copy of the minutes. Section 3.23 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report refers to ministerial approval to increase the authority's borrowing limit to €127 million and to enter the joint venture with Becbay. It appears this letter was received on 24 October and in a space of days the formal bid price notified to the Department was in excess of €400 million, which differed by €200 million from the earlier figure. The report states, "There is no evidence of the increased scale of the proposed investment being formally relayed to the Department at that time". How did it arise that the authority informed the Department the proposed bid would be €220 million at the same time as discussions were ongoing at board level on a bid of in excess of €430 million?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

As was pointed out in the report, the authority required approval from the Departments of Finance and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government before getting involved in joint ventures or increasing its borrowing limits. The correspondence to which Deputy Nash referred noted that the bid would be in excess of €220 million and the authority did not at the time report the scale of the investment in its correspondence to the Department.

It is claimed that it was informally aware of the additional exposure on the site due to the additional sum agreed at board level.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

That is correct. I should also note that the authority was required to seek sanction for increasing its borrowing limits and consenting to getting involved in the joint venture. The contextual information is provided but there was not an obligation on the authority to provide the figure. It would have been prudent to provide that information for the full understanding of the Department.

I would have to agree. It was an egregious error. At the time when decisions were being taken on the Irish Glass Bottle site, two members of the board were from Anglo Irish Bank and a third worked for Bank of Ireland at a senior level. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report indicates that board members complied with the authority's code of company but to the untrained eye these decisions have all the appearance of "Lanigan's Ball". He stepped in and she stepped out again ad nauseam. Talks are ongoing with the financial institutions in which these individuals were heavily involved. Has the authority learned any lessons about Chinese walls from the experience and has it put in place more robust procedures to restore public confidence and address potential conflicts of interest?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Under the chairmanship of Professor Niamh Brennan the authority commissioned a number of governance reviews and we have put in place a suite of governance procedures in recognition of the potential for conflicts of interest. The code of conduct adopted by the authority in June 2005 set out procedures and practices for dealing with conflicts of interest. Again reading from the minutes of discussions about the Irish Glass Bottle site transaction, it appears that the board solicited advice on how it was approaching the issue. A legal adviser assessed the process for dealing with conflicts of interest and was satisfied that the approach was correct. However, I recognise from the point of view of the committee and the general public that the authority was not well served by having as its board members individuals who were also on the boards of banks and that reputational damage was caused as a result. The current practice as set out in our code of conduct is in compliance with the code of practice for State bodies.

Ms Lambkin will accept that it seems extraordinary to members of the public that individuals who were central to the financing arrangements of the joint venture were also involved in decision making. We had poacher turned gamekeeper and the other way around. It is a curious set of arrangements. I accept that the authority can legitimately claim that it operated within the code of conduct but there is a difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the code of conduct.

On another issue pertaining to Anglo Irish Bank, why did the authority enter into a new loan agreement in June 2008 given that it increased its liability significantly?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

As I do not have that information to hand, I ask our director of finance to comment.

Mr. John Crawley

According to my recollection of briefings on the files, the exposure was not increased significantly at that stage. There was always a total exposure limit of €100 million but as the costs of the project began to materialise, particularly in regard to the substantial sums that turned out to be required in remediating the site, the funding arrangements were changed and the authority's guarantee was increased from €26 million to €29 million as part of that process.

Can Ms Lambkin tell the committee whether a valuation has been undertaken on the Poolbeg site since 20 January 2011? How much has the authority spent to date on the ongoing legal case?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

The last valuation of the Irish Glass Bottle site commissioned by the authority was in January 2011. That placed a value of €45 million on the site. The company has since been placed into receivership and is no longer the responsibility of the authority in terms of valuations for that site. I ask the Deputy to repeat his second question.

It regarded the legal fees expended on the ongoing legal case.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I refer Deputy Nash to the annual report and financial statements for 2011, wherein we report our legal fees. In 2010, our total legal fees were in the order of €2.9 million. That figure decreased to €1 million in 2011. The discovery process occurred during 2010, hence the higher fees.

The taxpayer will need to foot the bill for the ongoing costs relating to this farrago. Was the deal on the Poolbeg site discussed at any level within the council of the Dublin Docklands Development Authority, DDDA? It is the forum designed to include community interests in the area's development. I understand that it was and that the view expressed by many on the council was that they were not in favour of entering into the project.

It has been clearly set down that there have been significant community gains from the DDDA's work. We all accept this, given that we can see those gains every day. Was the funding plan for the local St. Laurence O'Toole school jeopardised because of the organisation's exposure on this site?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

The Irish Glass Bottle site transaction or the potential to get involved in that project was discussed at a council meeting in July 2006. It was where the possibility of ownership of an interest in that site was discussed. The objective of acquiring lands on the Poolbeg Peninsula was included in the 1997 master plan, which was produced by the council and submitted to the Minister. The objective has been set out in our strategies since 1997.

Regarding the question of spend on other projects, many committee members are aware of our success in terms of social regeneration. It is as a result of the purchase of the Irish Glass Bottle site that our financial situation is different from what it was previously. We were in a position to invest money in projects such as the St. Laurence O'Toole school, but we needed to withdraw funding for the primary school project. We are still working with the Department of Education and Skills regarding the special school project, but we have needed to cut our cloth to measure, given our financial challenges.

There is an ongoing social cost to the area, given the opportunities that it has lost due to the organisation's short-sighted investment and the fallout therefrom. I support the suggestion that we should invite Professor Brennan to appear before the committee to establish further some of the measures that the organisation has taken since learning lessons from this process. I accept that Ms Lambkin is answering the questions to the best of her ability, given the fact that she was appointed only relatively recently to deal with some of the project's major legacy issues . As the saying goes, there is no show without Punch. I mentioned a number of figures who are central to this project. It would be in the public interest to hear from them. The committee should give further consideration to extending an invitation to Mr. FitzPatrick, Mr. Bradshaw and others to appear before the committee to establish the facts and circumstances surrounding the site's purchase.

I will clarify a question raised by Deputy Nash. Ms Lambkin stated that the DDDA would follow "a typical course of development" when entering into an arrangement for the development of particular sites. Deputy Nash asked about who approached whom first. Did the authority approach someone about the site or was it the other way around? Who started this ball rolling?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I am not aware of the course of events that led to us getting involved with Mr. McNamara in the joint venture. The discussions on gaining an interest in the site dated back to the council meeting of July 2006 and would have been considered in our master plan as far back as 2003 and 1997.

Are minutes relative to the decision available?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I can try to track them.

It was a major decision, given the size of the landholding. Surely someone started the ball rolling. Who was it? Is that fact recorded? Was it started in a formal discussion? Could Ms Lambkin supply us with some information on this matter?

Other issues emerge from Deputy Nash's question. Those with a conflict of interest left the meeting while the decision was being made. In the lead-up to that decision, however, surely there were discussions on the site, how the relevant banking would be arranged and so on. Did those with an interest in banks and providing finance for such ventures leave the meetings at which these matters were discussed or did they just leave the final meeting where the decision was made? Were they privy to all sides of the discussion from the purchase price to the authority's view on the project to banking arrangements? If Ms Lambkin checked the attendance at those meetings, it would help the committee in our consideration of the matter.

The authority had legal advisers to oversee the code of conduct. What company was used?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

In 2006 when the Irish Glass Bottle site was purchased, A&L Goodbody conducted the work regarding the code of conduct.

Who conducted the negotiations with the authority's bankers and how? Who agreed the arrangement fee of €4.75 million, how was that figure reached and who attended the meeting at which it and other matters were agreed?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

The Chairman's first point related to the discussions on development partners. Reference is made to a discussion on development partners at the 3 October meeting. I am not aware of what conversations occurred prior to that discussion.

Regarding the question about conflict of interest, there was a full attendance at the October 2006 meetings. The various board members who were involved in the banks and so on attended those meetings. There was a great deal of discussion on the question of a conflict of interest at each meeting. As a result of those discussions, A&L Goodbody was retained to consider and audit the process and the approach to dealing with conflicts of interest.

Would it not have dawned on the bankers and board members present that they might have had a conflict of interest when dealing with this matter? They knew about boards and conflicts of interest. Did they ignore their responsibility as board members in this regard? Was the authority forced to ask A&L Goodbody to instruct them to leave the meeting at which the decision was made? They had attended all of the meetings up to then and knew all sides of the argument. Would they not have known? How soon did the discussion on the banking arrangements start with them? It was not the case that the authority arrived at a point where it had decided its banking arrangement. Surely there would have been a discussion about amounts to be borrowed, interest rates to be paid and this fantastic figure of €4.75 million as an arrangement fee. Who dealt with the banks?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Regarding the conflict of interest issue, I would note that at the meeting in November where the financing was discussed a number of board members excused themselves from that particular meeting when the banking arrangements were discussed. A&L Goodbody were commissioned subsequent to the decision made to audit the actual approach taken to the conflict of interest and dealing with those particular conflicts.

In regard to negotiations with the banks, I would not have been involved in those discussions and would not have that information to hand.

In regard to the arrangement fees, we may be able to comment further on that or-----

Mr. John Crawley

The only additional comment I can add on that is that the arrangement fee was around 1%, which would have been about the norm in banking at the time. That is not to justify it but it would have been the banking norm.

I will not prolong this as Deputy Murphy wishes to speak but there is no record of who conducted the negotiations with the bank, or is there a record?

There must be a record of that.

What person or persons engaged with the banks to arrange this loan, which was substantial? In the context of doing business with Mr. McNamara, surely the authority would have known his bankers. It would have known exactly what it was doing in that relationship and it would have known about his different relationships. Bearing that in mind, it is important for us to know who were the individuals who negotiated this and brought it back to the authority for formal approval. Who was the financial person at that time?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I would point out that there is a record that it would have been the joint venture partners, the authority and its joint venture partners, who would have negotiated that banking facility. That is Becbay Limited. The authority had a director of finance at the time who would have been involved in those conversations and discussions as well with the Becbay joint venture partners.

I thank Ms Lambkin and the other officials for attending. In her opening statement Ms Lambkin mentioned poor investment and management decisions. She stated: "While the authority is not the only development body to have been impacted by the recent property downturn, as an organisation we have paid a heavy price..." How is that viewed in the authority today? Is it viewed as a bad investment decision at the wrong time?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

To confirm again, the authority had an objective to secure the co-ordinated development of the Poolbeg area, and it was looking at putting section 25 planning in that area to ensure the continued physical and economic regeneration of that site. That would have been an objective set out since 1997. However, the purchase of the Irish Glass Bottle Company site has affected all of our operations. The Deputy would have seen that in the Comptroller and Auditor General report. As Deputy Nash referred to earlier, in terms of our cuts in spending in regard to social regeneration, that purchase has resulted in us having to scale back our operations. The authority has a staff of 15 people now, which is down from a high of 55. The total cost of the Irish Glass Bottle Company site transaction to the authority was €52 million. That money would have otherwise been invested in the regeneration of the docklands project.

Does Ms Lambkin view it as a poor investment decision which has left the authority in this financial position or as something worse, given what we now know about conflicts of interest, the exposure that was meant to be limited that was not, the executive not giving enough information to the board at key meetings and so on?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

As I mentioned in my opening statement, there were serious errors of judgment around the investment decision to get involved in the Irish Glass Bottle Company site.

Is that about the timing and the price paid or does it refer to the other aspects of the deal?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

We say it was the right ambition to get involved in the Poolbeg planning scheme area. However, it was the wrong price, the wrong time and there were serious errors in the process to purchase the site.

How long has Ms Lambkin been at the authority?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I have worked at the Dublin Docklands Development Authority since 2003.

Was she senior management?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I was part of a senior management team, yes.

What discussions did she have with Mr. Paul Maloney before he approached Mr. McNamara?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I was in the capacity of director of marketing at the time and I would not have any knowledge of such projects as they would have been outside my field of-----

However, it is her understanding that Mr. Maloney approached Mr. McNamara first.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I would not have any awareness of that.

It is detailed in minutes of 3 October where the chief executive briefed the board that he had undertaken confidential negotiations with the developer and the developer confirmed that he would welcome the involvement of the authority jointly in the tender. It is known, therefore, that Mr. Maloney approached Mr. McNamara.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Yes it is, and that is recorded in the minutes where in that meeting of 3 October the board discussed issues around development partners at the time.

Mr. Maloney went to Mr. McNamara on behalf of the authority but he did not seek permission from the board before he did that, is that correct?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

The issue of a development partner was discussed at the board meetings of 3 October, and they would be the records I would be referring to in this matter.

That is when Mr. Maloney told the board that he had spoken to Mr. McNamara but he did not receive sanction from the board to approach Mr. McNamara directly.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I would not have the information, Deputy Murphy.

Before Ms Lambkin goes to board meetings, what kind of preparation would she undertake with the chief executive?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

To explain the practice at the time of the management and board, we would prepare board papers on specific projects and those papers, for smaller and larger projects, would outline backgrounds to the projects, the positives and negatives, and any risk to the authority. We would present papers also to seek approval of funding for projects to the board. There would generally be a discussion among management around different papers. However, our remit and function was to bring our expertise to bear on our functional area and in my capacity as director of marketing I would be providing marketing and communications advice to the management and board of the authority.

Would there be a pre-briefing before Ms Lambkin went into the board and a debriefing on how the meeting went from the management's perspective?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Yes. There would have been a post board meeting where we would take actions from that board meeting to action whatever recommendations had been made at board meetings.

Ms Lambkin would have had a chance to do that, for example, before the meeting of 3 October. Mr. Maloney would have said that at today's meeting he intended to tell everyone that he approached Mr. McNamara to see if the authority will get involved with his bid for the Irish Glass Bottle Company site. Would that have happened?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I would not be aware. I did not actually attend all of the board meetings, particularly where they were in regard to areas outside of my functional area.

Ms Lambkin attended most of them on the Irish Glass Bottle Company site when it was brought up at the board.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

There were a number of meetings around the Irish Glass Bottle Company site where the decision was made to purchase the site, and I believe I attended one of those meetings.

According to my record Ms Lambkin attended four of the six meetings on the Irish Glass Bottle Company site.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

There would have been subsequent decisions at board meetings where I would have attended the board meeting where we would have been discussing a number of different topics at those meetings. Yes, I would have attended those meetings.

Before Ms Lambkin went into those meetings what was happening in regard to that site would have been discussed in the pre-briefing.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Yes, Deputy. I confirm that we would have a pre-board discussion around different areas but I would point out that we had various different functions there and I would have been representing my function. I would not have had any direct involvement in that particular project.

Ms Lambkin was senior management at the authority and therefore there is a collective responsibility on senior management for what the authority is doing, and this was the largest property deal ever done in the history of the State. Was it not incumbent on her as senior management to have taken more of an interest at the time?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I was there to bring my expertise to bear in the marketing and communications function. I mentioned earlier that an objective of the authority had been set down to get involved in the Poolbeg area and apply our section 25 process. Our jobs management team was to ensure delivery of the docklands master plan and I performed my role in delivering that plan along with the rest of the management team.

As part of senior management, does the witness accept she has a responsibility as she was privy to discussions with the chief executive, Mr. Maloney, before and after important board meetings where very serious decisions were taken?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I am not here to defend my own role in the Dublin Docklands Development Authority or justify why the authority sought to take an interest in this transaction. I would not be able to comment on it further.

The witness is acting chief executive and she was there at the time in question. She is here to answer for the authority. I am trying to understand the culture at the time in the executive and board. Did she ever think Mr. Maloney was withholding information from the board on any activities of the authority?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

My experience of the management team and the CEO is that they carried out their roles in a professional manner. I would not be able to comment any further on the matter.

The witness is aware that reports on the authority's workings conclude that Mr. Maloney was not fully informing the board of the activities within the organisation.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I believe in the governance reviews undertaken in the past, the chairman, Professor Niamh Brennan, pointed out there was not full information on some matters being communicated to the board. I confirm that. However, the governance reviews took place in 2010 and the authority has applied those lessons learned over the past couple of years. We operate a robust system of process and procedures to ensure there are comprehensive communications between management and board.

Was the witness aware of the issues at the time of her involvement or did she have any concerns that Mr. Maloney was not fully informing the board of activities in the authority relating, for example, to salary rises for CEOs that were not approved by Ministers?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I would not have been aware of the matter at the time. The subsequent King report pointed out a number of governance failures and the authority has since put in place procedures to ensure those governance failures are addressed.

Did Mr. Maloney tell the witness when he had engaged in discussions, or when the authority had engaged in discussions, with Anglo Irish Bank and Bank of Ireland?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I would not have been privy to the conversations around those matters so I am unable to comment.

Does it strike the witness as odd that members of the board of the authority, including its chairman, would have been aware that the authority was in negotiations with Anglo Irish Bank and Bank of Ireland before the board knew of these?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I have no awareness of what people would have known or not known at the time and I am unable to comment on it.

I am just asking if it struck the witness as odd. She is senior management in the executive and attended many of these meetings. At the meeting of 24 October, the chairman would have stated that the authority is no longer in discussions with a certain bank and is instead in discussions with Anglo Irish Bank and Bank of Ireland. Does that strike the witness as odd, given that the chairman was a member of the board of Anglo Irish Bank?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I did not attend that meeting so I cannot comment on that.

It came up again on 2 November, when it was confirmed that Anglo Irish Bank would be the bank to go with.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

On 2 November, the board members discussed the matter of conflict of interest and excused themselves at the meeting when there were discussions around specific bank financing for the transaction.

My question is if it struck the witness as odd.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I am not in a position to comment as I would not have had an informed opinion on the area at the time.

I think it is odd and Professor Niamh Brennan thought it was very odd when she came before the committee. Were A&L Goodbody solicitors consulted for advice on whether there was a conflict of interest?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

That is correct.

It seems they got it wrong. When Professor Niamh Brennan came before one of the Oireachtas committees to discuss the bank loans and board meetings, it was absolutely clear there were systematic conflicts of interest between the authority and Anglo Irish Bank by virtue of those common directors. There were questions about whether, as directors of the authority, the individuals in question owed their duties solely to the good of the authority or that the authority was engaging in transactions influenced by their outside interests. Was anybody in the management team at the time talking about that conflict of interest?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

As I noted before, it was a matter of discussion at the board meetings. Management would have attended those meetings as well and the authority complies with a code of conduct which would have been a matter of much discussion during those meetings from 2005 onwards. Earlier I mentioned that we put in place a new governance suite as of 2010 to ensure we have a very robust approach to dealing with those issues.

We are dealing with something that occurred six years ago and we do not have the CEO from the time before us, although we have a senior member of the management team. We know there were serious conflict of interest issues that arose at the time but those do not seem to have been recognised by the management team at all.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

It was a mistake, in our view. The Deputy quoted Professor Niamh Brennan earlier and she remarked at the same committee meeting that having various bank board members on the board of the authority did not serve the authority well. In hindsight, it was a mistake. There were errors in judgment and decision making as a result.

I accept it was a mistake and everybody knows that. I am trying to gain insight on the thinking of the management team at the time, what it was discussing and if it was being debated at all. Was this a solo run by one person in the management team?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I am not here to apportion responsibility to any particular member of the management team. To the best of my knowledge at the time there was a code of conduct in place and it was the duty of every board member and the management team to comply with that code of conduct. To the best of my knowledge, all members were complying with that code.

Is the witness happy that the corporate governance rules in place in the authority are robust, up to standard and would protect the authority from a similar conflict in future?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

We have a very comprehensive governance suite which is in compliance with the code of practice for State bodies. We have been fortunate to have Professor Niamh Brennan, a governance expert recognised across the country, as our chairman for the past couple of years. I am confident in that regard.

There are 15 people still with the authority. Were they all in place or has anybody been recruited from outside?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

We had 55 staff in 2008 and we now have 15; they would have all been recruited prior to 2008. Like all other State agents we are affected by the moratorium so we have not been recruiting people over the past couple of years. There are a number of contracts affected by the moratorium and those contracts will expire over the next year or so. There is no recruitment currently allowed.

Did Professor Brennan make any changes when she came into the executive?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Yes, a number of members of the executive would have left on the expiry of their contracts.

Would those new positions have been advertised?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Those positions were not filled due to the sanction imposed by the moratorium with regard to expiry of contracts.

Mr. John Crawley is the financial person with the authority.

Mr. John Crawley

That is correct.

Who was Mr. Crawley's predecessor?

Mr. John Crawley

That was a gentleman called Mr. David Higgins.

When did he leave?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

That was March 2010.

Mr. Crawley took his place.

Mr. John Crawley

I did not take his place directly. I am an external consultant.

Is Mr. Crawley still employed as an external consultant to the authority?

Mr. John Crawley

That is correct.

Are many other consultants employed by the authority?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

We have a number of consultancy services brought in across planning, valuations, quantity surveying, finance and legal. They are brought in as required.

Mr. Crawley was brought in to consult on financial issues for the authority.

Mr. John Crawley

That is correct.

Is the authority sidestepping the moratorium by using consultancy?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

The board recognised there were a number of key areas where the authority requires expertise. We were not at liberty to recruit members to fill those roles. However, we required certain services, particularly in finance and legal areas, where we would not have the necessary in-house support. For the past two years the future of the authority was uncertain and it was considered a prudent approach to hire consultancy services on a short-term basis to deliver value for money, as we could not recruit for a longer-term contract at that point.

How many consultants were involved?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

It would be a small number. As reported in the 2011 accounts, we spent about €500,000 on consultants but that was spread across a number of areas, such as planning expertise, conservation, quantity surveying and other technical expertise as required.

How long has the witness been acting CEO?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Since 1 March.

Did the witness have that position at any time prior to that for any period of time?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I covered as an acting CEO in times when the previous incumbent was out on leave.

Was this Professor Brennan?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

No. The previous CEO was Gerry Kelly. I deputised for him when he was out on leave.

In what years was that?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

He was CEO from July 2009 to the end of December 2011.

It was a brief period of time.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Mr. Kelly retired at the end of 2011 after over 20 years of service with the authority.

Was he appointed by Professor Brennan or how did he secure the position of CEO?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

He was appointed by Professor Brennan.

Did Professor Brennan appoint the witness as acting CEO?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Yes, that is correct.

Is there a fixed term for the position?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

My position expires at the end of June. It is an interim position. Given the uncertainty about the future of the authority, I was appointed on an interim basis.

The authority will be wound down over the next 18 months. What will happen to it?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

An announcement was made in the last couple of weeks that it will be wound down but that the appropriate structures and arrangements will be put in place by the new board to ensure the continued delivery of the docklands project. It is a very welcome endorsement from the Minister and the Government of the importance of the continued physical, social and economic regeneration of the area. The board has been tasked with ensuring we put in place an appropriate planning structure to continue the good work that has been overshadowed by some of the failings we are discussing today. Over the next 18 months we will work with that new board to progress that mandate.

How will that new structure look? Will it be independent of the council?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

There was also a 25 member council appointed a month previously-----

I meant Dublin City Council.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I cannot comment on that. I cannot predict it. It is a matter for the new board to decide on the structures and arrangements.

I mean the new structure for the authority. Will the authority be moving into Dublin City Council?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

That is not a matter for me to predict. It is a matter for the board to put in place those arrangements and to consider the options for going forward.

The new board will make its decision as to what the authority becomes in the future?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

That is correct.

To assist members, I will call Deputies O'Donnell, Donohoe, McDonald and Harris in that order. On a point of clarification, a number of questions have already been asked about matters that occurred before your time or of which you do not have knowledge today, Ms Lambkin. Will you furnish the committee with a list of the people from the past who would have the answers to the questions asked which you were unable to answer today? We can then decide on the list of witnesses for future hearings. If you could provide a comprehensive list, it would help the work of the committee.

Second, on the question I asked about who negotiated the bank borrowings, the report, at 3.47, states:

The borrowings by Becbay Limited to purchase the Irish Glass Bottle site were organised by Donatex Limited. The Authority's Board minutes record that up to 23 October 2006, the Authority was under the impression that Mr McNamara/Donatex Limited was negotiating borrowing facilities for Becbay Limited to acquire the Irish Glass Bottle site with a named commercial bank. However, at the Board meeting on 24 October 2006, the Chairman of the Authority [who I think at the time was also a member of the board of Anglo Irish Bank] told the Board that Donatex Limited had informed him and the Chief Executive the previous evening that it was in discussions with Bank of Ireland and Anglo Irish Bank regarding the required funding.

That answers my question. It is significant that this finding is at 3.47 in the report and it should be placed on the record of this meeting in terms of what we might consider for the future.

Who still remains from the board that was in place at the time?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

A new board was appointed on 1 June. It is a totally new board. There are no former members on that board.

Prior to that and up to the most recent board, who still remained from the original board?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

There was one member of the board whose term commenced in 2002 or 2003, Mr. Donal Curtin.

With regard to Becbay Limited, I have the accounts filed for 2008. Its solicitors were A&L Goodbody. The same solicitors were appointed to advise Dublin Docklands Development Authority on the acquisition as well. Would the witness not regard it as a conflict interest, where the same firm of solicitors is advising both the joint venture and the Dublin Docklands Development Authority? Second, the directors of Becbay Limited were Mr. Bernard McNamara, Mr. Derek Quinlan, Mike Flannery and Eoin Kelly, alternate. Who were the representatives of Dublin Docklands Development Authority on Becbay Limited? Becbay was the vehicle. Who still remains in the Dublin Docklands Development Authority of the top management layer that was in place at the time the decision was taken?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I will have to ask Mr. Crawley to help me on the question about the directors of Becbay Limited at the time. The authority had two members on Becbay Limited, the CEO of the authority, Paul Maloney, and our director of finance, David Higgins.

Mr. John Crawley

Mr. Maloney and Mr. Higgins were the original directors.

Who were Mike Flannery and Eoin Kelly?

Mr. John Crawley

Mike Flannery was an alternate for Bernard McNamara and Mr. Kelly was an alternate for Derek Quinlan.

I have the accounts for 2010. Who is David Higgins?

Mr. John Crawley

He was the head of finance with the authority.

Paul Maloney and David Higgins were the two people in Becbay at the time of the negotiations for the purchase of the bottle site.

Mr. John Crawley

To be technically correct, Becbay Limited was a special purpose company that would have been created when the transaction was put in place. There probably was no board of Becbay Limited prior to the decision. It would have been formed as a result of the decision to invest in the transaction.

So the Chairman is correct that Donatex Limited, which is Bernard McNamara's company, negotiated with the banks and Anglo Irish Bank in respect of putting the loan facility in place.

Mr. John Crawley

That is our understanding.

What involvement did Dublin Docklands Authority have in dealing with the banks for the purchase of the site?

Mr. John Crawley

The primary financial exposure of the authority to Becbay was the initial capital invested in Becbay by the authority, approximately €32 million or €33 million. The authority subsequently advanced further funds to Becbay, which increased its exposure to approximately €42 million. The financial exposure by the authority to Becbay was putting money in and then lending money to the company, which it did for two years to pay interest on the loans. Responsibility for borrowings to secure the site was with the board of Becbay, on which the authority was represented by two people.

Am I correct in saying that, from the valuation of the site to bidding on the site and negotiating loan facilities with the banks, it was done by one person, namely, Bernard McNamara? He was not a member of the board.

Mr. John Crawley

As Ms Lambkin has specified, the authority had sought to limit its exposure to the joint venture and initially reported at a board meeting that its exposure would be capped at €100 million. Subsequently, that transpired to be an exposure of €52 million. The interest or focus of the authority was on limiting its exposure to the transaction. It was a 26% shareholder in the transaction. Its focus was on its role with the authority. It was not primarily focused on raising finance for Becbay. Directors from the authority have director's responsibility on the board.

Digressing slightly, in order to get ministerial approval for the borrowings of the authority to the limit of €127 million, Dublin Docklands Development Authority had to write to the Minister to request an increase. The figure, €220 million, was the quoted bid price on 12 October 2006. Did that go from the CEO to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the Minister with the approval of the board?

Can Ms Lambkin tell me who was at top management level at the time who is still present?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

On the senior management team, there is just me.

Who has gone from the senior management team?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

The senior management team at the time included Mr. Maloney, the CEO, Mr. John McLaughlin, director of planning and architecture, Gerry Kelly, director of social regeneration, Neil Mulcahy, who was secretary and director of property, I was director of marketing, and David Higgins was director of finance.

Are they all gone?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Yes.

When did they all go?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Between 2009 and the end of 2011.

Did they leave on a voluntary basis or were they dismissed?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Two gentlemen retired and the contracts of the others expired. The practice of the authority was to hire people on contract, given that the authority would have a certain shelf life. In 1997, there was a view that it was a 15 or 20 year project. The general practice was for people to be hired on contracts.

Is Ms Lambkin the only person left from that Dublin Docklands Development Authority top management team?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

That is correct.

Can Ms Lambkin explain the circumstances of the CEO writing to the Minister and the Department requesting approval for an increase in borrowing up to €127 million on 12 October 2006? Did that require board approval?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

It was discussed at the previous meeting, on 3 October. The minutes refer to required ministerial approval. The board was made aware of the approval required under the code of practice for State bodies in respect of such transactions.

Was it verbal or were they told in writing that the bid price to be indicated was of the order of €220 million rather than in excess of €400 million, as transpired?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

This was official correspondence, a letter from the CEO of the authority to the Department to seek approval for consent to the joint venture and an increase in borrowing limits. It was in that context that the value of €220 million was specified to the Department.

Was it seen by the board before it went to the Department?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I do not know if the board actually saw the letter. However, the matter had been discussed at the previous meeting.

Does it not seem extraordinary that the letter was sent on 12 October and Ms Lambkin is telling me the board had discussions on the price in excess of €275 million? Can Ms Lambkin explain to me how a letter was written to the Department indicating a bid price of €220 million? That did not reflect the discussions at board level.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I cannot explain why a different figure was communicated to the Department. I should clarify that the letter was to get approval for an increase but did not set the right context. I acknowledge that.

What happened here is appalling. A letter was sent from the CEO after the matter had been discussed by the board on 3 October. If the letter had indicated the price would be in excess of €400 million, it is possible approval would not have been forthcoming. I hope it would not have been forthcoming. In June 2005, an independent valuation of €240 million was obtained by the board. The price increased to €303 million and, on 12 October 2005, it was €264 million. Discussions at board level indicated it would be approximately €375 million. There was a code of conduct dating from September 2005. It defies logic that the board or the CEO did not get an independent valuation. Ms Lambkin, as part of the management team, must have had some knowledge that, in writing to the Department to seek approval, it was not standard practice to attach an independent valuation of the property prior to receiving approval from the Department to go to €127 million. It is not good enough to say that this just happened. This cost the taxpayer €52 million and the project is in NAMA. Becbay valued the land at €50 million on 13 May 2010 because that is when the accounts were signed off. It is probably worth less today. Ms Lambkin said she does not know how this happened. The committee and the taxpayers are entitled to know how a letter was sent by the CEO, having been discussed by the board. We want to see the letter the CEO sent to the Department. We want to know whether he produced it before the board on 2 October or on 12 October, prior to it being sent. Will Ms Lambkin explain how that happened and why the authority did not get an independent valuation because I cannot understand that in the context of the normal course of business?

Ms Lambkin talked about the new code of conduct which the authority has brought in. The authority already had a code of conduct in place. If it had been implemented, the issue would not have arisen. There was a code of conduct in place in September 2005 but more than a year later, the same firm of solicitors advised Becbay and the Dublin Docklands Development Authority. Straight away there was a conflict of interest.

One of the directors of the authority, Mr. FitzPatrick, was the chairman of Anglo Irish Bank while another, Mr. Bradshaw, was a board member of the bank. Their bank provided the funding to Becbay for the project. There was also a director of Bank of Ireland on the board of the authority. There were conflicts of interest. It was like a maze of conflicts of interest.

The CEO of the authority went directly to Mr. McNamara. We need to know how this letter was sent to the Department stating €220 million rather €400 million, which clearly was the value in the ether at the time. Certainly, values of the order of €275 million were discussed at board level.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Deputy O'Donnell raised a number of issues, in particular around the errors in the process which-----

I do not want to know about errors in the process; I want to know whether this letter went to the board.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I am not aware if the letter was actually seen by the board. I know the matter was discussed at the previous meeting. I cannot explain why that particular valuation was offered, based on earlier valuations. The authority sought the necessary approvals and that letter was seeking authorisations for the necessary approvals. However, the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General pointed out that it did not provide accurate contextual information which was the tender bid of €220 million. I cannot explain why-----

If the €400 million-----

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I was not directly involved in that.

-----had been put in the letter - the correct market valuation - it is likely that it would not have gone through. Did the Department or the Minister of the day look for an independent valuation before signing off on that letter from Mr. Maloney?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I would not be aware of the requests from the Department at the time or of any such requests. However, just to point out again, it was the responsibility of the board to assess the value and the bid for the transaction. The authority sought the approvals, as required. However, I accept that it did not provide the correct contextual information for the decision to be made by the Department.

That still does not answer my question. Can Ms Lambkin find out if the board saw the letter which was sent by the CEO, Mr. Maloney, to the Department?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I do not have evidence from the documentation we have here today-----

So, therefore, it was never seen by the board.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I cannot confirm that. I would not have any knowledge of that.

Can Ms Lambkin check the records because she has in her possession the records of the authority? I think Deputy O'Donnell is correct that the correspondence to and from the Department at that time is needed by the committee.

On a final note-----

There was not only one letter.

Correct.

Chairman: Were there any other letters?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

We can take note of that.

To be honest with Ms Lambkin, it would appear from what she has told us that even though there was a code of conduct in place, the way the Dublin Docklands Development Authority was run at the time was shambolic and we are looking at the taxpayer being caught on the hook for this. Our responsibility as a committee is to find out how taxpayers' money was spent. We cannot spend taxpayers money on a whim or on a trophy project for individuals. That is just not on.

Did the DDDA have anything to do with the original owner of the land, Dublin Port?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

No. We would have had no previous involvement in the site prior to the Irish Glass Bottle site transaction.

Thank you very much.

I remind Ms Lambkin again about the letters.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I have taken a note of that.

I refer to a point made by Deputy O'Donnell on the legal adviser to Becbay and the DDDA for the periods of time mentioned. Ms Lambkin might confirm the name of the legal adviser to the authority and Becbay for the different periods of time as in the accounts.

I have a final question. I refer to the meetings over that period of time. I have looked at the annual accounts for the DDDA for 2006. It looks as if the directors attended the bulk of the meetings. It would appear that when the loan agreements were signed with Anglo Irish Bank - obviously, the DDDA would have been party to them - Mr. Bradshaw, who was then a director of Anglo Irish Bank, signed the document on behalf of the DDDA. Would Ms Lambkin not consider that a conflict of interest?

The whole thing appears to me to be a bit too cosy. The ordinary taxpayers, who are struggling and who, in many cases, are under enormous pressure from their lenders, are asking why there were two directors of Anglo Irish Bank and a director of Bank of Ireland on the board of the authority, why the loan came from Anglo Irish Bank and why a letter was sent to the Department giving roughly half the valuation of what the site was bought for. The deal was agreed at the beginning of November. Does Ms Lambkin agree that there were inherent conflicts of interests in this process, which is what she wants to call it?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I acknowledge the fact that having members on the board of the banks and the authority did not serve the authority well. It has caused huge controversy and significant reputational damage. In regard to the records I have, I am just providing the evidence of the discussions around the conflict of interest. However, I acknowledge the sense of unease that has been created as a result of the dual membership of the different organisations, in particular in regard to the Irish Glass Bottle site.

One of the figures mentioned in the questions today was the loss of €52 million. I just want to put it in perspective because it is, in fact, much more than €52 million because if one looks at the Anglo Irish Bank promissory note, buried in that €30 billion is the €291 million. If one looks at the value of the site now, that figure of €291 million and the loss of €52 million, there is a loss to the taxpayer of approximately €300 million as a starting point. That must be borne in mind by both the members and witnesses because it is a very significant figure.

The other matter, which I wish to tie into this, is the ownership history of this site. Probably one of the first scandals around this site relates to the prior ownership of this site. My understanding is that it was owned by the Dublin Port Company, the State, but under a loophole in the landlord and tenant legislation, the tenant got a freehold on the property and eventually got two thirds of the sale price. By my reckoning, I am suggesting that tenant profited by approximately €275 million at the time. I hope to have this matter clarified during the course of the hearings, either through the witnesses conducting a look back to that time or through the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General to establish if Ardagh Glass was the principal beneficiary of that deal because I want to link that through to the Dublin Docklands Development Authority and the chairperson of the risk committee. If Ms Cavendish was the chairperson of the risk committee, I wish to establish her association with the previous beneficiary on that site and to link what happened there with the Dublin Docklands Development Authority; the loss to the taxpayer and the connection of at least one person involved at that time; and thereafter the risk committee. When the witnesses are searching their documents, I ask them to look at the composition of the risk committee and Ms Cavendish's involvement and her previous involvement, so that we can examine it with a view to making some determination.

I want to begin with a quotation from the article by Simon Carswell headed "Anglo Republic - the Bank that broke Ireland" in which he states that the day the Glass Bottle deal was agreed a member of the Dublin Docklands Development Authority circulated an e-mail to all members of the authority declaring "happy days" and "our pension is now secured". Did Ms Lambkin get that e-mail?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I do recall that e-mail, but I think it was a casual comment made by a member of staff. As I mentioned earlier, an objective was set to acquire lands in the Poolbeg Peninsula and it would have been a very positive step for the DDDA to have become involved in this project. I mentioned earlier the view held was that this was the right ambition for the authority but it was the wrong price and at the wrong time - the site was purchased at the peak of the property market. That e-mail was a casual comment, based on that fact.

Was it not circulated to all members of the authority?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I do not know - I would not recall to whom it was circulated at that time.

In the reference to the e-mail that was sent out, it stated specifically that it was circulated to all members of the authority, and let me repeat it said "happy days" and that "our pension is now secured". Was that the only line in the e-mail?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I do not recall the details of the e-mails.

Okay, but Ms Lambkin did get the e-mail. Will she tell the committee who sent that e-mail?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

As I mentioned, it was from a member of staff, and it was a casual comment.

Was the person a member of the board?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I mentioned it was a member of staff.

So it was not sent by a member of the board?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I do not believe so.

I would like an answer to that, simply saying whether it was a member of the board that issued that e-mail?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

It was confirmed as a member of staff.

Ms Lambkin can confirm it was a member of staff.

In her earlier testimony, Ms Lambkin in response to Deputy Nash, said that the board made the decision to allow Bernard McNamara to determine the final tender that went in as the tender for the site. Am I correct when I state that is my understanding of the exchange with Deputy Nash?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Yes, Deputy. I read from the minutes of the meeting at that time, which was in relation to the valuation history of the site, the Authority had commissioned a number of valuations over the years, however, it did not get an independent valuation in the run up to the tender bid.

I understand that but I am specifically focusing on this point, that Bernard McNamara had the unilateral ability to determine the value of the final bid that went in for the site. Am I correct in that judgment?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Deputy, that is a statement of a minute from the Comptroller and Auditor General's report.

The minute states that the board agreed that Mr. McNamara could be allowed to increase the bid as he saw fit, to a maximum of €437 million. Mr. McNamara did not have to go back to the board before he made the final tender.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

That would be my understanding, Deputy.

Is it not extraordinary that the final price for this property was to be determined by a developer without consultation and final agreement from the board?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I should point out to the committee that the authority had sanctioned an approved exposure of €100 million in relation to the interested site on behalf of the Authority. When the bid of €220 million was being considered, the authority was considering taking a 49% stake in the joint venture, which was based around the €100 million sanctioned by the board. As the tender bids went up, however, the authority reduced its interest and it was capped at 26% based on the board's authorisation of a spend of €100 million. In respect of the final bid, I can only read from the minutes which allowed Mr. McNamara to a sanction of up to €437 million on that bid.

In paragraph 3.1.5 it outlines the different elements of the agreement that was made and the final bullet points of it is, of course, consistent with the point made by Ms Lambkin that 26% share of the profits generated by the developments would return to the Dublin Docklands Development Authority. Does that not make it even more extraordinary that Bernard McNamara had the final say on the purchase price, because that would have determined and influenced the amount of profit the Authority could have got back at a point in the future if it had been successful?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

We acknowledge that it was an error in the judgment of the then authority. It was based on the strong track record Mr. McNamara had across the country in property development and the authority trusted his judgment at that time.

I understand but it is a point that I want to emphasise that, for example, amidst all the other issues on which Deputy O'Donnell focused the final bid price was determined by the developer. Granted, as Ms Lambkin stated, within a price reference agreed by the board itself, but the decision on who would make the final decision on the cash value of the tender was delegated to a third party, a developer, who could make that final decision with no recourse to the board.

Let me develop that a little further. Some of the background to the deal related to the commitments that Anglo Irish Bank and Bernard McNamara believed were in place regarding the future development of the site. I understand from the book and report that the Dublin Docklands Development Authority wrote to Anglo Irish Bank stating it could guarantee a high building density on the site, the extension of the Luas line from the O2 to the site and fast-track planning permission. A former, unnamed Anglo Irish Bank executive stated the following to Simon Carswell:

We took huge comfort from the guarantee of the DDDA. We were lending against a huge tract of "raw" land at that point, so the loan was an exception to internal bank policy, but we had a state agency underwriting it.

The view held by the bank which lent the money was that the undertaking was underwritten by a State agency. Were guarantees provided on building density, extending the Luas line and securing fast-track planning permission?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

As I mentioned at the outset, I will be constrained in commenting on certain matters as they are sub judice and matters before the court. I can give the Deputy more information as to what that court action is in relation to but I would not be able to comment further on that matter.

Ms Lambkin cannot answer my specific question because of the court case.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

That is correct.

I will not press the issue. Perhaps she will be able to comment on another issue. One of the final elements of the deal was that the Dublin Docklands Development Authority guaranteed to pay the interest on the loan and some of the capital owing on its share of the loan. Why was that commitment made?

Mr. John Crawley

The terms of the shareholders' agreement that was put in place at the time for financing - I do not have the numbers here but if they are relevant, we will find them - was that the joint venture partners were each putting a certain amount of share capital into the transaction and the balance of the funding was to be provided by way of a loan which, as we now know, was provided by Anglo Irish Bank and Allied Irish Banks. At the time the shareholders' agreement was being put in place, the joint venture partners had agreed that they would collectively issue a guarantee of €100 million in respect of the loan and the balance of the risk would be on the site itself. The authority's share of the guarantee was 26%. That is how the authority's exposure in regard to the guaranteeing of the loan arose. It was on the back of a guarantee of €100 million given to the banks at the time.

What was the position in relation to the interest payments?

Mr. John Crawley

What was envisaged in the shareholders' agreement at the time was that 26% of the interest would also be guaranteed up to a cap of €35 million, in other words, the principal guarantee of €26 million, which was subsequently, as I stated earlier in response to a question, brought up to €29 million. There was then an allowance effectively to go from €29 million up to €35 million, which would have equated to approximately two years' interest.

Was that decision made by the board?

Mr. John Crawley

That decision was approved by the board.

At what point was that decision made?

Mr. John Crawley

I do not know the exact dates but it would have been in and around the same time in late 2006.

Around October 2006.

Mr. John Crawley

The funding did not come into place until after the bid so that would have been in November-December 2006.

The specific point on which I wish to focus is the board's awareness of the final price. Deputy O'Donnell asked whether the board was aware of the issuing of the letter to the Department of Finance and expressed his anger about that matter. We should emphasise that according to the report before us, the board was aware of the final value of €430 million. Is that not the case?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

That is what was minuted in the meetings where it was deferred to Mr. McNamara to place a tender bid of up to €437 million.

At all times, alongside the fact that the board may or may not have been aware of the issuing of the letter, it was aware of the likely final price.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

That is my understanding.

That is what happened in at least two meetings to which the report refers, which took place on 20 and 24 October, respectively. According to the minutes, the board agreed at these meetings that Mr. McNamara would be allowed to increase the bid as he saw fit to a maximum of €437 million. That is clear.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Correct.

On the membership of the board and the issue of conflict of interest on which many members have touched, I will cite what Seán FitzPatrick had to say in this regard. His comments are a matter of public record and are published in a book by Mr. Tom Lyons and Mr. Brian Carey, The FitzPatrick Tapes: The Rise and Fall of One Man, One Bank and One Country, in which Mr. FitzPatrick is cited as stating the following:

When the [board] decided who they were going to choose, myself and Lar walked out. Everyone said, Yeah, there is a possible conflict here, so you guys leave the room. They had discussions about the whole deal which Anglo was offering them and what negotiations they had with the financing of it. Lar was a director of Anglo and I was chairman so therefore there was conflict there. We couldn't be on the discussion of what finances they were doing with Anglo Irish Bank to finance the site. Now, on the other hand, we were in no conflict should we buy the site or not buy the site. There was no conflict there.

This is what Mr. FitzPatrick had to say on this matter. It is made clear that he and Mr. Lar Bradshaw excused themselves from the board's discussion of the financing of the purchase. However, they were present during all the discussions on the decision to purchase the site. They were excluded only from decisions on the financing of the purchase.

We must cast our minds back to recall what the banks were like at the time. The bank with which Mr. FitzPatrick and Mr. Bradshaw were involved was at that time blazing a trail through the Irish economy and funding the types of purchases they discussed initiating. Even if Mr. FitzPatrick and Mr. Bradshaw were not in the room when discussions were held on the financing of the date, their bank would be competing to secure the deal to fund a purchase to which they, as members of the board, agreed. One can only argue that there is no conflict of interest if one focuses on the most technical aspect of the issue, namely, who would finance the deal. Once a decision was made to proceed with the purchase of the site, the guys in the room were the same people who were running the company that was securing funding for these types of purchases across the economy.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

As I stated, I believe it was a mistake that there were members of the boards of banks on the board of the Dublin Docklands Development Authority. A number of reviews were done on conflict of interest. However, a sense of unease remains in relation to conflicts.

I must point out that it is more than a sense of unease as there was a network or web of intimacy and influence for which the taxpayer has paid dearly. I will give an example to draw attention to the type of circumstances which arose. Paragraph 3.50 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's special report details the meeting that formally approved the borrowings of Becbay Limited from Anglo Irish Bank. This may refer to the same meeting that is described in the book and to which I referred. The special report states the following:

Mr Bradshaw and Mr FitzPatrick declared their interests in that matter and left the meeting while it was being discussed and decided upon. In the absence of the Chairman, the remaining members chose Mr McCourt to chair the meeting. At the same meeting, the funding of the Authority's equity portion in Becbay Limited was discussed. As this was being provided by Bank of Ireland, Mr McCourt declared an interest in the item and left while it was being discussed and decided upon. The Board approved both loan facilities at that meeting. It is incredible that somebody who sat at that meeting could watch two chairpersons walk out of the meeting and not recognise there was a problem.

I will conclude on a point related to another thread of this saga which has not yet been mentioned. This relates to the North Lotts planning development, which is a separate development from the Irish Glass Bottle site on which we have focused so far. The North Lotts development is the building site that was proposed to house the headquarters of Anglo Irish Bank. A report into this was undertaken by Mason, Hayes & Curran in 2008. This report was not accepted by the then chair of the board, Professor Niamh Brennan. An article in The Irish Times of 25 June 2010, stated that on the previous day a spokesperson had said the board was concerned at the deliberate withholding of material elements of the secret agreement entered into by the then executive with Carroll that deceived the board as to its true objective, which was to facilitate the construction of a 16-storey building to be the future headquarters of Anglo Irish Bank, when the planning scheme only allowed for a seven-storey building plus a setback storey. The report on this investigation, undertaken by Mason Hayes & Curran, was then not accepted by the then DDDA board headed up by Professor Brennan. Where does that report stand now?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

That specific report was a draft and was never finalised. I would like to set the context with regard to that specific development. A section 25 planning certificate pointed to that specific agreement. That certificate was challenged by a developer at the time and a judgment was passed by Ms Justice Finlay Geoghegan which found there was an agreement entered into by the authority which was considered ultra vires, as the authority did not have the authorisation to enter into such an agreement.

Yes, and that forms the focus of chapter 4 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

That is correct.

My question concerns the nature of the discussions that happened before the granting of the certificate on which the court then adjudicated. Does Ms Lamkin have a draft of that report?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I imagine the authority would have a draft of the report, but I will have to come back to the Deputy on that.

Okay. I remind the committee again that Professor Brennan said: "We have indicated that we believe that very serious matters raised in the Moylan report should be investigated by an appropriate outside body and we will happily work with that body to help it get to the bottom of what we believe to be serious questions about the behaviour of members of the executive and others at the DDDA at that time". Ms Lambkin has a draft of the report, but thinks she cannot publish it. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report focuses primarily on the court case, checking on the stance and its appropriateness. It is clear that when Professor Brennan was talking about the appropriate outside body, she was referring to this committee or at least it seems likely she was referring to this committee. A whole strand of what happened in this saga to date has not been presented to us as part of our investigation, but I believe it is imperative that it is presented to us. The report from the Comptroller and Auditor General focuses appropriately on what happened with regard to the court case, but so far this committee does not have evidence or material on that or on the matter that was the subject of an investigation by the Dublin Docklands Development Authority, the report of which the then chairperson of the same authority did not accept from the people investigating it.

Will Ms Lambkin provide the draft report to us? If that is not possible, will she ensure material relevant to it is shared with this committee? I ask for that for one reason. There is a common thread between the situation with regard the North Lotts and the situation with regard to the Irish Glass Bottle site, which is that an unhealthy fusion took place between the role of this body as a planning authority and as a development authority. There is a common thread here between expectations being created regarding the development of both sites, but so far, we only have within our work to date, the Irish Glass Bottle work site. However, we must include the other site. I ask the Chairman to ensure that is done. We must bear in mind this was the site due to be the headquarters of Anglo Irish Bank.

Is Ms Lambkin clear on that request?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Yes, I am clear on that.

Can you help with that?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Yes, we will do that as soon as possible.

I want to underscore the seriousness of this. This is the report commissioned by Professor Brennan with regard to the phase before the likely development of the site that the then board felt it could not use and could not publish. We do not have that report, but we must take a role with regard to it.

I will conclude on two final points. I want to make a specific request for the former chief executive officer of the DDDA, Paul Moloney, to be invited to the committee. Second, I wish to challenge the contention here of community gain. This site and half of Dublin docklands are in my constituency of Dublin Central. I knew Paul Moloney and some of the people mentioned here, such as Mr. Gerry Kelly and as a public representative for the constituency, I was in the offices of the Dublin Docklands Development Authority for meetings during the peak of this affair. If we consider the Sheriff Street area and surrounding areas, we can see the commitment with regard to the new school was not kept and it is likely the commitment on the special school will not be kept, although I hope I am proven wrong on that. Some of the St. Laurence O'Toole schools have benefited from investment, but in general the whole community dividend programme for the broader Dublin area was capsized by property speculation from a State body combined with a large developer. The community in the area has paid a very heavy price for that.

I suggest that Mr. John Tierney, the new chairman of the board should come before this committee and if he does, I will put this matter to him. However, I will conclude by stating that there was a web of influence and intimacy between the different interests associated with the DDDA that have cost the taxpayer and that part of the city very dearly. I emphasise the request I have made, that our investigation be broadened to include the North Lotts development and the status of the investigation that took place into it and the reason the board then in place considered that it could not publish it.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

The report by Mason Hayes & Curran was commissioned by the board prior to Niamh Brennan taking up the role as chairperson. Professor Brennan went on to commission specific governance reports into the finance and planning function of the authority, at the request of the Minister. Some of the matters referred to by the Deputy come from those specific reports commissioned by Professor Brennan.

That is different to my understanding of it to date, though I stand to be corrected. However, my request still firmly stands. That is something we need to examine. If she felt at the time that the report she received was not sufficient and that new reports had to be commissioned, then this committee should know why that was the case.

I welcome the witnesses. I imagine Ms Lambkin feels like the last woman standing, left holding the baby.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Something like that.

Ms Lambkin's choice of language is beautifully diplomatic. I think we can agree that there was a whole lot more than "a serious error of judgment". Ms Lambkin is with the authority for a while now. What was the atmosphere like within the authority in 2005 and 2006? Was it clubby and warm, with fuzzy feelings of prosperity all around? Would the board members have been in and out? Ms Lambkin clearly worked fairly closely with Mr. Maloney. Would there have been regular visitors to Mr. Maloney? Was that the way things were transacted?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

When I joined the authority, it was in a much better financial position than it is today. We had the opportunity to invest in a wide range of projects. I noted earlier that we invested €6.2 million in education across the docklands area. We built up a certain expertise in that area and we are widely recognised for our contributions to the community. As Deputy Donohoe stated, it is a shame that this has not been able to continue due to a mistake that was made in the past-----

Was Seán FitzPatrick in and out? Would he have been a regular visitor to Mr. Maloney?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

There would have been regular board meetings. The board of management met on a monthly basis. Mr. FitzPatrick was also a member of a number of sub-committees of the board. They would have attended in that capacity.

Where did the board meetings take place?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

The majority took place in the offices of the authority.

Would the authority have had regular visits from politicians, outside those of us who are local in the constituency?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

The council would have a number of representatives on the board of the authority and they would meet every six weeks.

Was the channel of communication or the relationship between the board and the Minister?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

The authority is bound by the code or practice for State agencies and we would have a reporting line as set down in that code. The communication to the Minister is the responsibility of the chairman of the board of the authority.

I presume the chairman would have met fairly regularly with the Minister, both formally and informally.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I would not be aware of the specific arrangements between the chairperson and the Minister at the time.

Do the records not reflect the tempo or the frequency of those meetings? I presume diaries are held for people in senior positions.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I have been informed by my colleague that there would have been records kept by the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government.

It would be useful for us to have a sense of that. So far, we have homed in legitimately on the board itself, but obviously the board was answerable further along the line. I know that other colleagues have raised the issue of the correspondence in respect of the final bid for the Irish Glass Bottle site, but we need to get a broader sense of what exactly the interaction was between the Minister and the chairman of the board.

One of the difficulties we have with this hearing - with the greatest of respect to our witnesses - is that we are not talking to the right people. I would like to support the proposal that Mr. Maloney be invited to attend this committee. I would also like to say that it is not just Mr. Maloney that we need here. Who attended those meetings in October and November 2006, where the issue of the Irish Glass Bottle site was discussed? Who was in attendance? Can Ms Lambkin read them out for the purposes of the record?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Yes. On 3 October, board members present included the chairman, Mr. Lar Bradshaw, Mr. Seán FitzPatrick, Mr. Declan McCourt, Ms Mary Moylan, Mr. Donal Curtin, Ms Joan O'Connor, Ms Niamh O'Sullivan and Ms Angela Cavendish. That would be the full board. The executive present at that meeting consisted of Mr. Paul Maloney, Mr. David Higgins, Mr. John McLaughlin, Mr. Gerry Kelly and Mr. Neil Mulcahy. At the meeting of 20 October, in attendance from the board were Mr. Bradshaw, Ms Moylan, Mr. Curtin, Ms Joan O'Connor, Ms Niamh O'Sullivan and Ms Angela Cavendish. The executive present consisted of Mr. Maloney, Mr. David Higgins and myself. On 24 October, those present from the board were Mr. Bradshaw, Mr. FitzPatrick, Mr. McCourt, Ms Moylan, Mr. Curtin, Ms O'Connor, Ms O'Sullivan and Ms Cavendish, which was the full board. The management team present consisted of Mr. Paul Maloney, Mr. Higgins, Mr. Kelly and Mr. Mulcahy. These were three meetings at which the decision was made to purchase the Irish Glass Bottle site.

What about the November meeting where the financing of the deal was apparently agreed?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

There were two further meetings on the financing in November and December. At the November meeting were Mr. Bradshaw, Mr. FitzPatrick, Mr. McCourt, Ms Mary Moylan, Mr. Curtin, Ms O'Connor, Ms O'Sullivan and Ms Cavendish, which was the full board. The management team consisted of Mr. Maloney, Mr. Higgins, Mr. McLaughlin, Mr. Kelly, Mr. Mulcahy and myself. At the final meeting in December 2006, the full board was again in attendance.

What were the dates of those two meetings?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

The first was on 2 November. I do not have a specific date on the December meeting, but I will get back to the Deputy on that. The management team present at the December meeting consisted of Mr. Maloney, Mr. Higgins, Mr. McLaughlin, Mr. Kelly and Mr. Mulcahy.

That is the cast of characters who know exactly what happened and why. I suggest to the committee that these are the people we need to attend in order to answer questions for us. I note from Ms Lambkin's answer that she was in attendance for two of those meetings. Given the scale of the deal in question and given the obvious discussions that were happening about a conflict of interest, did Ms Lambkin have personal misgivings? What view did she take on the conflict of interest at play?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I was aware of the code of conduct and to the best of my knowledge, all board members would comply with that code of conduct. My professional opinion was that I would have been under the understanding that everybody complied with that particular code.

As a professional and clearly an accomplished individual, Ms Lambkin did not have any misgiving on that count. She felt that the code of conduct simply addressed the issue.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I was aware of the ongoing discussions on the conflict of interest issue and to the work that was done as we discussed it. I can only speak for myself. To the best of my understanding, I believed that all board members were duty bound to comply with that code.

Therefore, Ms Lambkin did not see a problem with such vested interests being present in the discussion of a record-breaking deal that would have to be financed. On a personal level, Ms Lambkin felt the code of conduct, once complied with, answered that issue. I do not want to put words in her mouth; I am just asking her to confirm that that is what her thinking was.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I speak only for myself; I was aware of the concerns in those conversations.

Did Ms Lambkin share the concerns?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Again, the code of conduct was in place. I was aware of the discussions and issues around them, but it was my understanding the members would be compliant with any code set down.

Whatever Ms Lambkin may have felt or thought at that juncture, what is her view now? With the benefit of hindsight, can she see, code or conduct or no code of conduct, how clear and stark that conflict of interest was? Does she have an appreciation of this now?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Absolutely. In retrospect, the relationships between the banking institutions that I mentioned and the fact that members were on the boards of the banking institutions, as well as the board of the authority, did not serve the authority well and this has caused us substantial reputational damage.

This matters because Ms Lambkin is now in charge. She is now in the top job and it matters that we have confidence in how she sees and understands things. It is not just a matter of reputational damage, is it? The conflict of interest was such that it corrupted and undermined the decision-making process. It was not just a minor issue or an error of judgment; it was a profoundly problematic issue at the heart of the decision-making process. Does Ms Lambkin accept that now?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I accept that it was an error and a mistake on behalf of the authority. We have looked at the governance issue and there has been a root and branch review. We have learned from the mistakes of the past and the governance procedures now in place have copperfastened what we have done with the authority.

Is Ms Lambkin still in touch with some of her former colleagues who served on the board and in senior management positions? Does she maintain contact with her predecessors, for instance, Mr. Maloney or Mr. Kelly?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

There are some with whom I would be in contact, but I do not believe that is relevant to today's proceedings.

I raise the question not to pry into Ms Lambkin's social or private arrangements but because it strikes me that she is sticking rigidly to a set of words. I wonder whether there is lingering sensitivity that offence might be given to those who served before her. I cannot understand, given everything we have heard and everything in this and previous reports, how she can persist, as the person now in charge of and accountable for the authority, in using the phrase "error of judgment". That is a misrepresentation of what happened and I think Ms Lambkin is sufficiently well versed and smart to realise this. Would she care to comment on this?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I am not here to apportion blame to any of my former colleagues or board members. It is not my position to do so; I have not been instructed to do so, and it would not be in my character to seek to follow that course of action. Reports and studies have been commissioned on the Irish Glass Bottle site. Mistakes were made and it was wrong, as we acknowledge.

I appreciate that. The purpose of this committee is not to lay blame but to ensure accountability. People in senior positions must be accountable. There is an accountability issue for many of Ms Lambkin's predecessors. She has been questioned herself, as a member of senior management during the period when this fiasco occurred. It strikes me that she, as the person accountable to us and the general public for the authority, is rather shy about calling a spade a spade, not blaming people, but stating what is blindingly obvious. This was not an error of judgment; it was a catastrophe.

Ms Lambkin said A&L Goodbody did work on the conflict of interest issue. I would be grateful if she could clarify the sequence for me. As I understand it, its representatives came in after the fact.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

That is my understanding.

That was the wrong way to do it, was it not? To conclude retrospectively that there was a conflict of interest was locking the stable door after the horse had bolted. Would it not have been far better for the legal people to do this work in advance?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

To clarify, it was the board that raised concerns about the conflict and it obtained legal advice from A&L Goodbody to audit that process.

Did the board put decisions on hold while awaiting that advice?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I do not believe so, not from my understanding of the files.

Therefore, it carried on regardless. I presume the advice was given in written form. I presume Ms Lambkin has it and the committee needs to see it. I would appreciate it if she could provide it for us, with the details of the issue raised earlier about the identity of the particular adviser.

We have talked about the valuation of the site and Ms Lambkin has said repeatedly that no independent valuation was made. In fact, there was a valuation, in June 2005, of €240 million. Can Ms Lambkin tell me who carried out that valuation?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

That is correct; there was a valuation history and an independent valuation was undertaken by CBRE. The value at the time was given as €240 million.

Therefore, that was the working assumption until it came to light that Mr. McNamara had a different valuation further down the road.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

A number of other valuations were undertaken in the meantime.

I know, but I am fast-forwarding.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

That is correct.

Can Ms Lambkin see how it would not be unreasonable to conclude, given that there was an initial independent valuation, that the board members recognised the necessity of it? They saw the good sense of it. We cannot talk in the abstract about a deal such as this. They then held off, further into the process - even though there was an inkling, I presume, that the valuation had changed or was inaccurate - and did not re-engage with the people who had made the initial evaluation, just to check things, before signing up to the deal. Was that by accident or design? I find it hard to believe it was an oversight by the board. I find it stretches common sense.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I cannot excuse the fact that an independent valuation was not undertaken prior to the purchase of the site. It should not have happened then and it certainly would not happen now. There were a number of valuations and there was informal advice, which I mentioned, from property advisers. However, I cannot defend the lack of an independent valuation. It occurred at the height of the property market and seeking an independent valuation would have been a prudent approach.

Whose call was it?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I know the matter was discussed at board meetings. At the meeting of 3 October I believe the issue of valuations was discussed. The internal valuations were made on 12 October; therefore, it was a matter that was discussed at board meetings.

Collectively the board would have borne a responsibility for this. Is that correct? Would the boss not have had a particular view?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I can provide further information. I referred to a note earlier regarding the deferral to Mr. McNamara in respect of the bid of up to €437 million. That was in the minutes arising from the board meeting. The minutes indicate it was discussed at that meeting and that was the conclusion at the time. I understand it was noted in section 3.31 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's special report.

In other words the board members abdicated their responsibilities in respect of the valuation of the site and the final bid price. They deferred to Mr. McNamara. Were they not in dereliction of their duties?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I confirm the board deferred the decision to Mr. McNamara.

Was that a dereliction of their duties?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

It was a mistake not to get an independent valuation. It was a mistake by the board and the authority at the time.

Therefore, it was a dereliction of their duties as board members. Is that correct?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

It was a mistake. It was wrong that they did not get an independent valuation at the time.

Does Ms Lambkin believe they failed as board members?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Yes. I have said already that I believe it was wrong. It was a mistake. I guess it was a failure of the board.

We know it was a mistake.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

It was a failure of the board at the time not to get an independent valuation of the site.

Was it a failure of their duties as board members? It strikes me as the most basic of exercises. I do not imagine one would need to be a property guru or financial guru to know that one gets the basic steps correct and that one does one's homework and one has the housekeeping done. These were simple things. It would not have been rocket science for anyone with an ounce of wit. Were they in dereliction of their duties?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I guess it was a failure in the process and probably it was a dereliction of their duties.

Yes. They were in dereliction of their duties.

Many other elements could be explored but before I move on to my final set of questions I reiterate that we need the persons who were present at the time and who were the actors to come here. In fairness to those here today there are questions they cannot answer but we must get to the bottom of it.

Ms Lambkin repeatedly sounded a positive note in respect of the authority and the positive things it has done, including the growth of population in the area, the new jobs, especially in financial services, and so on. This is well-documented and to be acknowledged. Ms Lambkin said there has been a 53% increase in the docklands population since the 1990s. I hope she will put me right but I have no sense from her that she has an understanding of the community that has lived in these areas for generations. I represent the north docks area. Leaving aside the clear malpractice and bad governance at a higher level, for the average Joe Soap the performance of the Dublin Docklands Development Authority has been underwhelming. For example, how would Ms Lambkin judge the performance of the regeneration effort in terms of social housing?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I point out that the Dublin Docklands Development Authority introduced the policy to provide 20% of all its housing as social and affordable housing. This has been especially successful on the south side of the river. There have been issues in terms of delivery in Deputy McDonald's constituency in several developments. Certifications are in place for more than 840 units but the delivery to date has been for approximately half of that amount. In the case of several developments on the north side of the river, there are certificate issues but they have not commenced as yet. I can take the committee through specific developments if it is required.

I am aware of them. Ms Lambkin should be aware that in the midst of all of this there are people from the north docks area, Sheriff Street and surrounding areas who cannot get housed there. Most of the people with housing needs in that area under the jurisdiction of the Dublin Docklands Development Authority are housed elsewhere. Is Ms Lambkin conscious not only of the disappointment but the anger of many people? They believe they have been badly let down by what was to be a considerable regeneration effort and a renewal of their community. Does Ms Lambkin have a sense of that?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Naturally. I attend the council meetings and I am very aware of the issues surrounding the particular projects that have not been delivered as of yet. The authority is working with all parties to try to ensure delivery of the remaining units. It is important to us that the social regeneration commitments of the authority continue. The Minister made clear in his recent announcement that social regeneration is important, that we must ensure it continues and that the housing units are delivered in the coming years.

The problem is that the authority was saying that while the cosy club was cooking up whatever deals to make a quick buck. In this case it was the Irish Glass Bottle site but perhaps there were others. Does Ms Lambkin understand this? Can she see the contrast between the big boys at play, conflicts of interest aside. The view was: "Plough on and make your own arrangements Mr. McNamara." Meanwhile back at the ranch one of the core objectives of this project and the reason it was set up was the regeneration of the local area and meeting the housing needs of citizens and taxpayers but this was bumped right down the agenda, especially on the northside. Locals talk about how there was more social housing in that part of the docks 20 years ago than there is now. Is Ms Lambkin aware of that?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I remarked earlier that the cost to the authority of the Irish Glass Bottle site was of the order of €52 million. These moneys would have been spent delivering social regeneration in the docklands area. In addition to housing, the authority considers education to be one of the foundation stones it carries out as part of social regeneration. On the northside we have worked closely with St. Laurence O'Toole's national schools in the past. Deputy Donohoe referred to this earlier. It is unfortunate that, as a result of the transaction to purchase the Irish Glass Bottle site, the authority has had to withdraw its funding from St. Laurence O'Toole's national school projects. That is a shame for the people of the area. I am pleased to report, however, that the authority is working with the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government to arrange for the transfer of that site for the development of the special school. While our financial situation is challenging we hope we can continue with our social regeneration mandate and with the delivery of these projects.

What did the board members make of it when the money was pulled from the schools on Sheriff Street? We can all see the connection between the fiasco of the Irish Glass Bottle site on the one hand and the failure to meet the regeneration objectives on the other. What did the board members think of that? Was it discussed? What did the senior management think? Were those in the authority disappointed or upset?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Deputy McDonald will appreciate that these decisions are not taken lightly. It is difficult for the authority to have to turn down projects that would have had worthy objectives and that would have been the cornerstone of our work as well. We set out objectives in our master plan and, as a result of our current financial situation brought about by the Irish Glass Bottle site transaction, we cannot make some of these policies a reality. It is unfortunate for all the people of the docklands, for the people working there and for the communities as well. We continue to do all in our power, however, despite the financial challenges we have to deliver as far as we can. We are still heavily involved in several programmes in several schools in the north side of the city.

I mean no disrespect but does that not simply amount to crumbs from the table? Any positive intervention is welcome. However, at this committee, Ms Lambkin should not over-egg that aspect.

In light of all of that and taking account of the failure of the social regeneration aspect, does Ms Lambkin want to revisit her error of judgment position and recast a judgment on what happened? There was not an error of judgment. A golden circle was at play, was it not?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I started out at this meeting by saying the process to purchase this site was fundamentally wrong.

Is Ms Lambkin angry at what happened? Does it cause her any level of animation that such an absolute fiasco could happen? One could not make this up. People talk about golden circles and cosy cartels. This is it in action. I am astonished. Ms Lambkin was there. I accept she was not the key player but she was a senior management person and is now in her current position. She comes before the Committee of Public Accounts and repeats, mantra-like, that there was an error of judgment. It was not an error of judgment. There were, certainly, wrong judgments. Wrong judgments were made, but it was so much more. This did not happen by accident. There was not a lapse of judgment or a lack of attention to some point of detail. What happened here was fundamentally wrong. Given that the Minister is going to wind the thing up and that the regeneration and creation of an economic hub for the city and State is still needed, how can she come here, as the person who is now in charge, to give an account of the authority and be so utterly passive about what happened? I am unhappy that we hear from her that this was an error of judgment.

My colleagues have put a series of issues to her which dramatically illustrate that what happened was many things, but it was not the result of an error of judgment. I would leave this meeting far happier if Ms Lambkin could, at a minimum, resile from that language and put it in terms that are more reflective of the reality of what happened, which I think she knows. I would like to hear her do that. I think it is important she does that. There are people outside this forum who will pick up the tab for this.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I am not here in a personal role. I am here to represent the authority. I accepted earlier that the purchase of the Irish Glass Bottle site was the wrong decision. There was a flawed process to come to that decision. The property was purchased at the peak of the property market and it has caused massive problems for the Dublin Docklands Development Authority. I opened by saying that rather than helping us achieve our objectives, it has harmed the delivery of the docklands project. It is a shame for the people of the docklands project.

However, the Minister has made a decision to continue the regeneration of the docklands project. That is an endorsement of the success of the regeneration project going back to 1997, and 1987 when the Custom House Docks Development Authority was in place. There were huge successes relating to the project but in a number of key years, between 2006 and 2008, things did not go right. Things were not done right, either. That has had a harmful impact on the delivery of our objectives.

I will be brief because much has been covered. I know Mr. David Walsh is here today as an observer. In an effort to be helpful and to pick up on points made by colleagues, it is important to put the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government on notice that we will need to receive significant amounts of information on the role of the Department and the Minister of the day in holding the DDDA to account, the levels of contact and how often meetings were held. The points raised by Deputy McDonald are valid and we will need that information. As we begin the first day of a comprehensive set of hearings, it is becoming apparent, as I think you knew, Chairman, that we will need a significant number of individuals to attend. The list of board members read to the committee will be essential in getting to the bottom of this. We need to talk to the people who were in the room making the decisions at the time.

This is the golden circle personified. That is a fair analogy. Neither do I like the phrase, "error of judgment". It was the opposite. Having sat through today's meeting and read the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, it is clear to me the people involved in the board that made decisions about the purchase of the Irish Glass Bottle Company sites knew exactly what they were doing. There was no lack of attention to detail. In fact, they paid considerable attention to detail in getting legal advice and sending the wrong information to the Department. I do not accept the board of the DDDA was stupid. To say so is insulting to their intelligence. We are getting the impression that people made mistakes. I do not accept that. A number of people who sat on the board knew exactly what they were doing.

I return to the issue of legal advice. Why was legal advice sought to determine whether a conflict of interest would arise if people who served as directors of banks made decisions about potentially using those banks, which could then make profit, to purchase the Irish Glass Bottle Company site? Some of the children in the area, who will lose out on much needed investment as a result of these mistakes, as Deputy McDonald and Deputy Donohoe pointed out, could have told us there was a conflict of interest.

I have a theory. One of two things happened. Either someone on the board, or some whistleblower type person within the DDDA, was expressing concern and there was a sudden rush to seek legal advice to tell certain individuals, Mr. FitzPatrick and Mr. Bradshaw, they were okay, or the opposite happened and it became necessary to engineer a situation to create cover for the actions of the board of the DDDA. Why was legal advice sought?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I can only speculate. At the time, the board itself raised the matter of conflict of interest and sought legal advice regarding the conduct of and approach to the purchase of the Irish Glass Bottle Company site. I do not have any understanding or further knowledge of the chain of events leading up to that or insight into the discussions that led to A&L Goodbody being commissioned to do that work.

This is a question to which we need an answer. I accept that Ms Lambkin may not be in a position to answer it.

This brings me to my next question. Ms Lambkin attended a number of board meetings and is more familiar than members of this committee with the atmosphere of those meetings. Was there a herd mentality? Were there a couple of individuals who were pursuing an agenda of wanting to buy the Irish Glass Bottle Company site and happy not to have an individual valuation and to have wrong information regarding cost sent to the Minister, or was there dissent and debate? I get the impression, and I would like to think I am wrong, that the meetings were conducted in a lax fashion, were obviously led by one or two key and influential individuals and that the board just followed along. At the board meetings attended by Ms Lambkin, was there debate and dissent? Were there people saying an independent valuation should be sought? In an effort to help us understand the mentality of the board members, can Ms Lambkin tell us what the environment was like?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

During my time with the authority there was healthy debate and discussion at board meetings. Members were all requested to be involved in debate and their opinions were solicited and discussed in equal measure. I was not aware of any imbalance in the arrangement at any time during the board meetings.

Were board decisions taken by vote, in Ms Lambkin's experience?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

The board would debate an issue and, usually, come to a consensus on it. In my experience, a healthy debate with each member participating would be followed by a decision by the board.

From Ms Lambkin's experience or to the best of her knowledge, was there ever a time when there would be two compelling arguments of different views and following a debate a decision would be made? From my limited experience of participating in committees and the like, this tends to be the way things work. Was this board consensus-driven, in that there was a discussion and a debate at the board meeting but that there was never a division on an issue? This, in my view, would seem peculiar.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Certainly there would have been lively debates at the meetings and there would have been people raising concerns and expressing different opinions about different projects. These would have been discussed openly and frankly and the board would arrive at a decision. There would have been various discussions around different matters.

The board has to accept collective responsibility for the decision it reaches. Was there never anyone on the board who had strong enough views on some of these very serious issues who would voice his or her disagreement and ask for it to be recorded in the minutes?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I wish to point out that the board minutes reflect the decisions made; they do not go into all the details of the discussions so I would not have the information to hand as to what happened at specific meetings. There was a culture of having lively debates and all views were brought to the table and discussed fully prior to arriving at a decision.

I know Ms Lambkin was not a member of the board. This is a question we need to have answered because there is a difference between having a healthy debating society and having divisions. I have never sampled Cabinet but this is what happens in the world. People accept the majority decision but they do not all agree on the issue. We might be able to probe further with other witnesses to discover if there was a herd mentality.

If the Deputy has time.

It is only a matter of time.

The Chairman has just given me the kiss of death. To return to the serious issue at hand, my colleague, Deputy O'Donnell, has already asked Ms Lambkin a number of questions about the now famous letter that was sent to the Minister. I accept the letter will be produced but I cannot allow the opportunity pass without returning to it.

The chief executive officer of the authority at the time attended a meeting on 3 October and nine days later, on 12 October, he sent a letter to the Minister on behalf of the authority, quoting the figure of €220 million. This is a statement of fact. It is also a statement of fact that at that board meeting, nine days prior to the letter being written and sent, a potential figure of approximately €400 million was discussed. I cannot help but note that the man who sent the letter to the Minister quoting the figure of €220 million had, nine days previously, attended a board meeting of the authority - on whose behalf he was sending the letter - at which a figure of nearly double that amount was discussed. No matter what way it is dissected, and even with the lack of information Ms Lambkin may have available to her today, what was the motivation? I am turning over two theories in my mind. Either the process of having to write to the Minister to seek approval was viewed with such disdain that the letter was just a bit of a pain in the neck which had to be sent, or it was again a realisation - Deputy O'Donnell touched on this point - that the Department would baulk at a price of half a billion euro to buy a site and the permission would not be granted. Can Ms Lambkin provide any insight into why, in her view as the acting chief executive officer, that a letter which was so blatantly wrong and which was written by somebody who knew it to be wrong - who had to know it to be wrong - was sent to the Minister of the day?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

As the Comptroller and Auditor General's report pointed out, that letter did not communicate the scale of the bid to the Department and we accept that finding. The then chief executive officer and the board of the authority would have been obliged to seek the approval of the Department of the Environment and the Department of Finance, to increase the borrowing limit and approval to enter into the joint venture. This would have been a requirement for the board of the authority to write to the Department and it was authorised to do this. However, the context was not set out correctly in the letter.

The point made by Ms Lambkin is accurate and would stand up to scrutiny if no figure had been mentioned in the letter. If a letter had been sent to the Minister seeking permission to increase the borrowing level above €127 million, that would be fine but a figure was quoted in the letter. I cannot work out why a figure which turned out to be roughly half the total amount, was quoted in a letter and why the letter was signed by a man - I accept Ms Lambkin is only accountable for her own actions but she was involved in the senior management team - nine days after he had attended a board meeting at which another figure was discussed. This is a question to which the committee needs to return.

I refer to the current financial arrangements of the Dublin Docklands Development Authority. I ask Ms Lambkin to provide an overview of how much the DDDA is paying in interest to the banks.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I will refer the Deputy's question to my colleague, Mr. Crawley.

Mr. John Crawley

We have a banking facility of approximately €12 million with National Irish Bank. We have recently renegotiated that facility for the next 18 months. We were paying approximately 3.5% over base rate which would mean we were paying about 4% and we are now paying one quarter of a percent more, now 4.75%, a 3.75% margin plus 1% base rate. This is the cost to the authority for our bank financing at present.

What is the total Exchequer funding being provided to the authority since its establishment?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

The authority is a self-financing agency so we are not within a Vote from the Exchequer.

What is Ms Lambkin's current position in the authority?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

As I stated at the start of the meeting I was appointed on an interim basis until the end of June this year and this was because of the uncertainty over the future of the authority.

What will happen in June?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

That is a matter for the board of the authority which has been tasked with putting in place the correct structures and arrangements to ensure the continued mandate of the authority.

Will Ms Lambkin continue with the authority or does this depend on a decision by the authority in June?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I understand I will be continuing in my position as director of marketing but that is a matter for the board.

I asked this question because of the request by members for other people to be called before this committee. It would be important to have a continuing connection with Ms Lambkin, given that this is the first of a number of hearings which will lead the committee to a final conclusion. It is important that Ms Lambkin would be available to attend the committee hearings.

I refer to Ms Lambkin's opening remarks in which she started well by issuing the apology and then she went on to speak about the error of judgment. I say this because I want to put it clearly on the record for others who might be attending here on this matter. However, she deeply disappointed me in respect of the information she was willing to share with the committee. I would have thought she would have prepared much better, given her involvement with the authority and the information to which she had access and which is still the case. I would have expected the documents needed in order to explain the decisions would have been made available prior to or at today's meeting so that the committee members could have a clear understanding of the origins of these matters.

Ms Lambkin stated she wished to communicate three points to the committee. The first of these is the issue that chiefly concerns us, which is essentially what happened during that time, who made the decisions, the history of the site and how we arrived here. What we have heard in this regard is shocking. We hear many reports like this at these meetings, but the delegates must take on board what taxpayers reading about it will feel. I agree with my colleagues that what happened here was not a simple error of judgment. There were people involved at that level who clearly understood what good governance is all about and what a conflict of interest is. They took certain decisions - to go back to the loans being drawn from the banks or their own arrangements with the banks as the figures increased for the purchase of the site and the 1% arrangement fee also increased. There were benefits accruing during all of the time in regard to financial institutions and individuals who were negotiating and so on. That was unacceptable and should have been stated at the time.

The question that crosses my mind as I listen to the answers we have received today is why nobody cried stop. Why did nobody within the authority or any board member, reflecting on what was happening at these meetings, stand back at that time and raise the serious questions that needed to be asked, including - to choose just one - the conflict of interest issue? Why did nobody ask why the developer led the negotiations with the banks? It is difficult to believe that nobody did. It is also difficult to believe, on reflection, that Ms Lambkin would attend this meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts without bringing with her the documentation that would describe each step of the way for us and that she seems almost afraid to mention the persons who were centrally involved in this, indicate the role they played and identify where and why they went wrong. We are not so much asking for her personal opinion; it is a fact that there was a conflict of interest. In hindsight, she could identify that more clearly than she could perhaps have done at the time, if she were reflecting on it.

It is important that other witnesses who appear before the committee to discuss this issue are clear on what we expect, namely, absolute clarity, no nonsense about naming names in terms of the decisions that were made and those who played a central role, and no delay in presenting the necessary documentation. A departmental official is in attendance at today's meeting who will report back to the Minister. As I see it, we must have extensive documentation from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government in terms of the requests made of it and its engagement in the whole process. This was the Department with responsibility for oversight of this matter, but there does not seem to have been any oversight. We can only make a judgment on that, however, when we receive the documentation. Is there documentation, including, letters, records of meetings, memos of one type or another, which would shed light on the relationship between the Department and the authority, on one hand, and the Department of Finance? The sets of minutes that were referred to in the course of the meeting this morning and the agenda for those meetings are important.

Representatives of the Department will appear before the committee on the next occasion, presumably along with a representative of the Department of Finance or the new Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, after which we hope to hear from Professor Niamh Brennan with a view to setting the scene for that time. Ms Lambkin has been asked to clarify the list of names, including the chief executive officer and the team that was involved at the time, to ensure everybody is included. A clear message must go out from this meeting that we are seeking a comprehensive set of documents and replies from the people coming before us. That is what members expect. We had to start somewhere and have done so with this meeting, but I would like to see a great deal more.

To whom was the letter sent by Mr. Maloney to the Department copied?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I will have to get back to the Deputy on that.

That is not good enough. Ms Lambkin should have had the letter with her today and we should not have to ask these questions.

Does a bonus system apply for staff within the authority? Were members of management on a standard salary, for instance, with a bonus applicable where certain targets were met?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Bonuses are not currently payable.

Were they applicable in the period we are discussing?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I understand a bonus was payable for the CEO role at that time, but I am not sure of the parameters around how that was set.

We need to know precisely what remuneration he was in receipt of and whether a bonus was obtained for bringing this particular deal through.

Another issue that strikes me is that A&L Goodbody was brought in to look at the issue of conflicts of interest. Who were the authority's ongoing legal advisers at that time?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

The authority has a panel of legal advisers, with different companies being engaged depending on the project.

I am not in any way casting personal aspersions on individuals but it is relevant, from a conflict of interest viewpoint, that A&L Goodbody was also the legal adviser to Beckbay Limited. The question that arises is whether this deal would ever have gone ahead if the DDDA was not involved. Deputy Paschal Donohoe pointed out that Anglo Irish Bank took great solace from the fact that the authority provided a guarantee. It seems, on the face of it, that the taxpayer subsidised the deal, through the DDDA and that it would never have received the go ahead without the benefit of taxpayers' money. Again, without casting any personal aspersions, the financial negotiation was fronted by the developer who was putting the deal together both in terms of the bid on the site and the banking facilities put in place to bankroll the purchase. It is made clear in the book to which Deputy Donohoe referred that the bank took great comfort from the DDDA's involvement. Does Ms Lambkin believe that the bottle bank site purchase would ever have taken place without the involvement and backing of the authority?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I cannot speculate on what other bids were out there at the time.

When one considers the matter in all its context, the biggest loser is the taxpayer, with serious consequences for other projects within that area. I reiterate the Chairman's point regarding what is expected of delegates appearing before this committee. Our role, and we make no apology for it, is to obtain answers on behalf of the taxpayer. We did not get the answers we asked for today. Ms Lambkin would have been well aware of what to expect in coming before a committee with particular terms of reference and a particular reputation with the public and individuals working in public bodies. We are demanding to see the documentation we have requested because people are entitled to the truth. From what I can see, we are talking about almost €500 million of taxpayers' money being flushed downstream.

We are entitled to know what meetings took place with departmental officials. Ms Lambkin indicated that the chairman of the DDDA was the point of contact with the Department. What meetings took place between the chair, Mr. Lar Bradshaw, and the then Minister and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government during the period 3-24 October? We have been informed that the letter of approval from the Department was received after 24 October. What was the precise date on which the Department issued its reply?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I can clarify the matter now for the Deputy.

What was the date?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I believe the date of that communication was 24 October. We approached this meeting on the basis of the report provided and have no difficulty in providing the committee with further documentation, as required.

Ms Lambkin has listened carefully to what members have had to say and there is a great deal of information and documentation to which reference has been made. We require this to be provided as soon as possible.

To continue with the point made, I am not at all happy about what has happened today. I accept that it is not easy to come before the committee to answer questions. I prepared for this meeting and there were many questions I wanted to ask. However, it was not possible for me to pose them on foot of Ms Lambkin's initial statement and in the light of the way in which she answered Deputy Gerald Nash's questions. I have all of the minutes from the board meetings in my possession and all the correspondence relating to the Department in my office. Ms Lambkin, however, does not have this material in her possession today. As a result, I could not pose my questions. Her opening statement was quite clear, namely, that the authority viewed this matter in the context of it having made a poor investment decision at the wrong time. When she was answering Deputy Nash's questions, she stated she was not CEO at the time. As I pointed out, however, she was a senior member of the management team. As such, she had a duty and responsibility.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe has referred to a key paragraph in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report - that is, paragraph 3.50 - in which it is stated that two chairmen were obliged to leave a particular meeting as a result of the fact that direct conflicts of interest arose in their cases in respect of the financing arrangements under discussion. The Deputy wondered what people in the room must have been thinking at the time and Ms Lambkin failed to answer him, despite the fact that she was present at that meeting. What was her thinking when the first chairman indicated the need for him to leave as a result of the lending arrangements involving Anglo Irish Bank and Becbay Limited, when he stated the chairman of the former would also be obliged to absent himself when he wished everyone good luck with that part of the meeting? When it came to dealing with the equity provisions relating to Bank of Ireland, the acting chairman was also obliged to leave as a result of his involvement with that institution. Ms Lambkin was sitting in that room at the time and Deputy Donohoe asked what she was thinking. I would like her to, please, answer his question now.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I was in the role of director of marketing at the time. However, I did not have a direct involvement in the project. In respect of that meeting, I was aware of specific board members, namely, the two members from Anglo Irish Bank, Mr. Seán Fitzpatrick and Mr. Lar Bradshaw, excusing themselves and then Mr. McCourt excusing himself later. I was aware of the code of practice for State bodies and to the best of my understanding they were acting in compliance with that code.

Did Ms Lambkin think that what had occurred at the meeting was odd?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I was aware that it was a matter of concern.

Was it a matter of concern for Ms Lambkin?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

It was obviously a matter of concern for the authority, of which I was aware. It would have been a matter of concern for me also.

Was Ms Lambkin concerned that two members of the board who had both chaired different parts of the meeting had been obliged to leave as a result of their direct involvement with the deal - outside the boardroom - in their other capacities and on behalf of the banks they represented?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Yes, it was a matter of concern for all of the board and management. Therefore, I was concerned at the time that there was a conflict of interests.

As a senior member of the management team at the time, does Ms Lambkin believe she bears any responsibility for what happened in respect of the Irish Glass Bottle site, in particular?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

As I mentioned, I did not have direct involvement in the project. I did represent the authority in the marketing and communications function. I brought my expertise and skills to bear in that respect. I would obviously have carried out my duties to the best of my ability. However, I did not have direct involvement in the project.

Ms Lambkin is now acting CEO of the authority. How big is her management team?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

We have a senior management team of six people who represent different functional areas.

Are there regular meetings of the management team in order to discuss issues affecting the authority?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Yes, we have a weekly meeting with the management team to discuss the priority issues of the week.

When issues not relevant to particular members of the management team's briefs are discussed, do they remain silent? Do they switch off? Do they leave the room or are they involved?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

Again, we invite all members to issue opinions on projects and debate matters in hand or before the authority. We have a procedure in place - an operational management plan - whereby we identify risks to the authority. As CEO, I invite all of my team members to get involved in that process.

Does the current management team operate differently from that which was in place when the decision was reached on the Irish Glass Bottle site and when Mr. Maloney was CEO of the authority? Is the current management operating within a different structure and is the nature of the meetings that take place different also?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

It was a very different organisation at the time. The Deputy will appreciate that the number of people involved has been scaled back from 55 to 15. We, therefore, operate in a very different fashion than before.

Do other members of the management team share collective responsibility in the running of the organisation?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I confirm that they would.

Did Ms Lambkin share collective responsibility for the running of the organisation in 2006?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

The culture at the time would have been different in that one would have represented one's functional area. My opinion would not have been solicited on a number of projects outside my expertise and experience. We have learned a lot of lessons in the past couple of years. Professor Niamh Brennan commissioned governance reports on the finance and planning functions. From these, many things have been learned which have influenced the way we now work.

The property deal relating to the Irish Glass Bottle site was the largest ever undertaken in the history of the State. It was a really big one. Ms Lambkin was on the management team of the authority at the time. She was director of marketing and her role involved talking up both the organisation and different aspects of what it was doing. She must have engaged in plenty of discussions on this matter at the time. There must have been a buzz around the office and everyone must have been talking about this big deal that was going through.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

As mentioned, it was considered to be a positive project at the time in that it was an advancement of achieving our objectives as set out in the master plan. We would have promoted it as a positive action on the part of the authority.

Ms Lambkin did not ask questions about conflicts of interest and she and her colleagues did not discuss it around the water cooler. Did no one ask, "Is this not a bit odd?" or "Wasn't that meeting a bit strange, particularly as two chairmen were obliged to leave because of direct conflicts of interest regarding lending arrangements?" Did no one ask whether all of this was a little weird?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

As stated, concern was expressed at board meetings. I would have been aware of this and-----

Did Ms Lambkin engage in the type of conversations to which I refer? Did she have a concern which she actively expressed to colleagues outside particular meetings? Did she ever state what had happened at a meeting was really strange?

Ms Loretta Lambkin

I cannot recall any such conversations.

Ms Lambkin cannot recall them.

Ms Loretta Lambkin

No, I cannot.

Similar conversations were happening on the private side of this arrangement. Those on that side were asking "Isn't this a bit weird?" However, Ms Lambkin has stated she cannot recall being involved in any conversation of this nature outside board meetings. I find that very strange. It is bizarre that at the outset of the meeting Ms Lambkin was incredibly cautious in her dealings with Deputy Gerald Nash. She was trying to give the impression that she had operated at some distance from this matter. She was, however, part of the management team and this was the biggest deal happening in Dublin at the time. It is also bizarre that she did not bring the relevant correspondence or the minutes of that meeting with her. It is strange that she did not speak with anyone else who was involved at the time in order to try to obtain either some background or further information. She did not check either notes or records. That is extremely disconcerting, particularly as she is now CEO of the organisation.

We have not even discussed the financial position of the authority. It is incredible that the authority's continued existence is dependent on it successfully defending a case which no one believes it has a chance of winning. The financial position of the authority has not changed during the past two years. There are still issues in respect of the car park and other investments, the debts on which it cannot collect and the levies that are outstanding. We have not discussed any of these issues, yet Ms Lambkin is the CEO. I have a concern in this regard. The committee began its deliberations at 10 a.m. and has achieved nothing.

It is a start.

I accept that but-----

We were obliged to start at this point in order to understand the direction in which we must move in dealing with this matter. We share the Deputy's disappointment in respect of the material made available to us and in terms of the contribution made by Ms Lambkin. However, we must move on from here. It was for this reason I stated it was important that Ms Lambkin be available for hearings the committee might wish to hold, particularly as it delved deeper into this matter. This is a huge problem. It involves many people who have moved off the stage who we require to come back centre stage for our hearings. We will get to the end of it.

My point is that we have the current CEO of the organisation who was there at the time. We have to call in other people but we have the current CEO of the organisation that is still in difficulty. We have addressed some of those issues but not all of them. This person was there at the time and it is important also to consider that.

I want to make two points concerning the atmosphere at board meetings and within the organisation regarding this issue, which colleagues have probed. The book, The FitzPatrick Tapes, states that Seán FitzPatrick said: “There was little discussion at board level about whether McNamara was the right man for the job, as his reputation spoke for itself.” Seán FitzPatrick said Bernard was an established builder and developer. He said he had done a lot of successful stuff. He also said he had dealt with the docklands authority over the years and seemed to have a good relationship with it. He further said no one thought he was a difficult man or anything like that. He said his signs were up all over Dublin. He also said he was doing a lot of stuff for the Government. He further said he was doing civil engineering. He said he was doing development. He also said he seemed to be doing everything. That illustrates the culture we are trying to penetrate. I would underscore that by referring to footnote 23 to which a reference is made in paragraph 3.28 of the Comptroller and Auditor General’s report. There have been many discussions here about the €430 million and where it came from. Footnote 23 of the report, in which the Comptroller and Auditor General provides information on where €430 million came from, states:

The only documentary evidence of this made available on audit was a spreadsheet appraisal which was sought to determine the costs, income and developers margins assuming the site cost €430 million. While this was discussed at the Board meeting on 24 October 2006, the Authority has informed me that it was not circulated to the Board until a meeting on 2 November 2006 which was after the Board had agreed to bid for the site.

The only documentary evidence, which I hope we will get to access, was not shared with the board, according to that footnote, until after the decision was made. An appraisal which determines costs, income and developers margin would be a pretty basic appraisal for trying to understand the pros and cons of the largest investment deal in the history of the State. The documentary evidence for this was circulated to the board after the decision was made.

Does Mr. McCarthy wish to make a further point?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Given that there are further hearings, I do not have any points to make around the summation or conclusion of the report. To be helpful to Deputy Eoghan Murphy and the other Deputies in regard to conflicts of interest and so on, I point out that what we have tried to set out on page 43 is the sequence of events around that. They might wish to note that the question of conflict of interest in relation to funding was brought up at the meeting of 24 October 2006 and there was a discussion at that meeting about the right way to proceed to deal with that matter. The events of the meeting of 2 November 2006 happened in that context where they would have had an opportunity to consider how these matters would be dealt with. The process, as described, of persons with conflicts of interest leaving for parts of the meeting is the process that is required and prescribed in the code of conduct.

I thank Mr. McCarthy for that clarification. I have seen that part of the report and I am aware that they meet their own code of conduct, but Niamh Brennan has since come to an Oireachtas committee and said that a conflict of interest did exist and that it was systematic. It is important to note that as well.

Part of the concern relates to the strength of that code of conduct. The organisation met what it deemed to be the appropriate code of conduct. There is a concern regarding whether that code of conduct was the appropriate one, but what Mr. McCarthy has outlined is the chain of events.

If members are happy, we will conclude the meeting. We understand clearly where we are going from here. I think Ms Lambkin can understand the requirements of committee. We will set out the list of witnesses for our next meeting in due course.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee at adjourned at 1.45 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 21 June 2012.
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