Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 20 Jun 2013

Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund

Before we begin, I remind members, witnesses and those in the Visitors Gallery to turn off all mobile telephones as they interfere with the sound quality and transmission of the meeting.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If a witness is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and the witness continues to so do, the witness is entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of his or her evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and witnesses are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Members are also reminded of the provision in Standing Order 163 that a committee shall also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome Mr. Joe O'Flynn, who is the general secretary of SIPTU. I ask him to introduce his officials.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I am assisted this morning by Mr. Eamon Lawless and Mr. Eugene McMahon.

I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to introduce Special Report No. 80: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I will give an overview of the report. Some of the issues that arise are matters for this morning's second session with the HSE and the Department of Health rather than SIPTU.

The social partnership model in the management of public sector bodies aimed to achieve improved co-operation between management and staff in addressing challenges in the delivery of public services and to modernise the practice of industrial relations in the public sector. To achieve this, a number of collaborative arrangements were put in place to identify required training and development and oversee their delivery. The initiatives implemented for the health sector included the health service national partnership forum, which was established in 1999, and the SKILL programme, which commenced in 2004. Similar partnership arrangements were put in place in the local authority sector, including the local authority national partnership advisory group, which was established in 1999.

Previous reports from my office looked at the partnership arrangements in the health sector and found weaknesses in the way public funds had been administered. In the course of those examinations, it was found that there had been substantial payments of public money from multiple sources into a bank account called the SIPTU national health and local authority levy fund account. Following concerns expressed at a meeting of the committee about the operation of this fund, I undertook an inspection of its accounts. Before I outline the key findings of the inspection, I want to comment briefly on the availability of relevant records about the transactions on the fund. The fund bank account was established in late 1998 by a senior SIPTU official, who acted as the fund administrator, and a health sector employee who was a SIPTU member. Formal SIPTU approval for the establishment of the fund bank account was not sought. Fund transactions were not processed through SIPTU's financial system. SIPTU took control of the fund bank account in 2010 and subsequently closed it. The fund administrator did not put in place a formal system of accounting for fund transactions. Bank records were available for movements on the account from January 2002.

SIPTU arranged for annual financial statements to be compiled retrospectively from the bank records. These statements were made available in full to the inspection team. To supplement those records, the inspection team verified a sample of payments through direct confirmation by identified suppliers and individuals. The team also examined the records of funds allocated and payments made in the public bodies that provided money to the fund. We asked the fund administrator for a copy of a report prepared by a firm of accountants on his own behalf and for any supporting documentation. He declined to make them available to the inspection team. The inspection found that public money totalling €4.15 million was available to the fund in the period from 2002 to 2009. Funding of approximately €1 million was returned to State bodies between late 2010 and December 2012. Accordingly, the net cost to taxpayers of the operations of the fund between 2002 and 2011 was approximately €3.15 million.

Concerns were expressed by the HSE about the destination of some public money paid over to the fund. Records of the issues from public bodies and receipts by the fund prior to 2002 are incomplete. The inspection team found no evidence of misappropriation of public money issued to the fund in that period. It also found that all of the public money identified as having been issued by public bodies in the period from 2002 to 2009 was lodged to the fund. The inspection team found that the funding bodies had not specified clearly the purposes for which most of the funding was provided. The lack of specific direction as to how the money should be used allowed a degree of flexibility by the fund administrator in responding to demands, so long as they were within overall partnership objectives.

Public money was provided to the fund through a complex chain of funding transfers. This created a risk that there would be confusion among the funding bodies about responsibility for ensuring adequate oversight and accountability. In the event, there was no effective oversight or formal accountability for the fund's operations. Most of the public funding was made available in advance of expenditure, in the form of grants. There were instances in which grant funding was provided just before the end of the year. This could indicate that funding bodies used the fund as a mechanism to avoid surrender of unused partnership funding. This resulted in the fund's building up a cash balance that was significantly in excess of its immediate business needs.

Between 2002 and 2009, approximately €2.2 million was spent on training programmes and grants. This type of expenditure is consistent with the broad partnership objectives stated by funders. However, the inspection found significant amounts of expenditure which were less clearly within the scope of those objectives, such as expenditure on marketing and promotion, travel and accommodation, and hospitality. In some instances, employees of public bodies engaged in foreign travel that was arranged and paid for from the fund. Such arrangements are inappropriate because they bypass internal controls on the charging of and accountability for foreign travel expenditure incurred by public employees. Details of those trips were discussed by the committee at a previous hearing.

In addition, the inspection team identified transactions relating to further foreign travel, the details of which are presented in the report in figure 3.3. The expenditure involved is approximately €46,000 and comprises mainly credit card payments for flights and accommodation. The precise number of trips cannot be determined because, in most cases, the credit card statements record the dates when payments were made, which may or may not coincide with the dates of travel. The fund administrators stated that most of these trips had a legitimate business purpose, but did not give details. No documentary evidence was available which enabled us to determine the purpose of those trips, or how they related to the work of the fund. The examination found that significant refunds were made to the fund account by individuals, especially in 2010 after concern emerged about the fund's operations. This included refunds for the expenses of persons who had accompanied officials on trips. Due to the incompleteness of the records, the inspection team was not able to match these to specific payments, or to conclude whether all refunds due were repaid.

While the relevant public bodies failed to put service level agreements in place with the fund administrator, or to implement appropriate control and accountability arrangements, the fund administrator had an obligation to manage properly the public money entrusted to him. At a minimum, he should have kept sufficient and appropriate books of accounts to make it possible to determine in a timely way how each element of funding had been used and what balance, if any, remained. He should also have sought clarification from the relevant funder if he had any doubts about the appropriateness of proposed expenditure. Furthermore, he should have reviewed the adequacy of the arrangements in place when the level of annual funding received doubled in 2003 and again in 2004 and in 2007.

The development and operation of the fund raises a number of issues of general concern in relation to the administration of grant funding by public bodies. The report sets out a number of recommendations designed to improve control over, and accountability for, State grants. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has indicated that it accepts the recommendations and proposes to progress them through a joint working group between the Department and my office.

I thank Mr. McCarthy. I acknowledge the presence of Mr. Heffernan from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. I ask Mr. O'Flynn to make his opening statement.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I thank the committee for allowing us the opportunity to appear today and make a statement in respect of the SKILL programme and national health and local authority levy fund. We are not a public body and, as such, we appreciate the fact that the committee has acceded to our request to attend.

SIPTU is the largest trade union in Ireland, representing more than 200,000 members, two thirds of whom work in the private sector and one third in the public sector. We are a membership organisation with approximately 10,000 voluntary representatives working through an extensive membership network of locations throughout the country. The union was organised on a branch based structure until October 2010 when it was restructured along divisional lines. Within the union, the term "levy fund" has had a specific meaning. It indicates an account operated by a branch under its own control and rules and governed by branch trustees. Crucially, such funds derive their income from the branch members. The commonly understood use of the term "levy" refers to a levy of the particular branch membership. Typically, levy funds are intended to assist members with educational grants or contributions to alleviate hardship, or otherwise to assist members as the trustees of such funds shall decide. Within the union, there are a number of such levy funds bearing the name SIPTU in their title. These are managed by the trustees of the relevant fund and for this reason are not included in the union's books and records. The national health and local authority levy fund did not receive any money sourced by way of a levy on members and was not a "levy fund" within the understanding of the union, as I outlined.

We first became aware of an issue relating to the SKILL programme when we were contacted by Health Service Executive audit personnel in September 2009 seeking a meeting. The HSE was engaged in an audit and had been dealing with the administrator of the fund for some time on this issue. At that time, the fund administrator was on sick leave following a serious accident in August 2009. He had been engaged in the audit process until then. Given the sense of urgency expressed by the HSE audit team, we immediately responded to the request.

The HSE was seeking SIPTU's assistance in completing its audit. At the meeting with the HSE, we were advised that grant payments had been paid into the national health and local authority levy fund. This was the first time we had been informed that such grants were paid to the fund. It was the HSE's assertion that the grants were meant for SIPTU. We advised that no such money had been paid to SIPTU under the SKILL programme. We presented copies of our annual audited accounts to Dr. Geraldine Smith who was leading the HSE audit when we first met. We subsequently learned that moneys from several public bodies had been paid by way of annual grants and reimbursements to the fund over a number of years.

The union's national trustees determined to inquire into the allegations surrounding the payments into the fund. Two members of the trustee body were requested to carry out a thorough investigation with the assistance of professional advisers. As members are aware, their report was published on 25 March 2011. Much of the information was compiled by way of examination of bank records, return pay cheques and interviews with the fund administrator. The report identified that the levy fund had been established in 1998 without approval or consent from the national officers or national executive council of the union.

The trustees report considered the extent of knowledge which existed within SIPTU as to the operation and organisation of the training, seminars and travel which took place. Apart from the fund administrator, those aware of the SKILL programme activities believed matters were arranged through the office of the project manager of the SKILL programme. This was an office within the HSE. We understood that all activities were approved and funded with the full knowledge of the Departments and agencies involved. This is what we were told by the fund administrator when we asked about the sources of the moneys to which he had access.

No grants were paid to SIPTU by the various State agencies or by way of the fund. However, a number of transactions were made over the years between the fund and branches and other units of the union to the value of €68,000 in total. These were understood as transactions between the levy fund and union. At no stage did any of the funding agencies directly contact SIPTU head office or pay SIPTU head office any grants. As members know, the vast majority of the transactions associated with the account were captured by way of the copy bank statements we obtained going back as far as 2002.

We thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff for the professional manner in which they have compiled their report on this matter, the findings of which we accept. The Comptroller and Auditor General reports total State funding of the national health and local authority levy fund of €4.049 million and total lodgements to the fund of €4.448 million. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report also found that between 2002 and 2010, the fund expenditure totalled €3.854 million, while the net cost to taxpayers of the fund's operation was in the order of €3.15 million.

We know there was some concern expressed at this committee that our organisation was not co­operating fully with the Health Service Executive in its inquiries on this matter. This was never the case and we gave every assistance we could by way of providing all information that was within our control, as we have done with the Comptroller and Auditor General's investigation. It was SIPTU which proposed that the Comptroller and Auditor General investigate this matter. As there were numerous public bodies involved, we took the view that the statutory powers of the Comptroller and Auditor General would be far more effective in securing the data necessary to complete a comprehensive report. We assure the committee that we have co-operated fully with the Comptroller and Auditor General and have provided complete and open access to all data and records available to our organisation.

Concern was expressed at the meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts held on 15 December 2011 surrounding two alleged payments of €190,000. We wrote to the Health Service Executive following that meeting seeking all documentation relating to the alleged payments but secured no evidence that they had ever been paid. Arising from comment and speculation regarding these alleged payments, we referred this matter to the Garda fraud squad and met with it formally to outline our concerns.

The inquiries and report of the Comptroller and Auditor General confirm reference in correspondence to such payments being approved in 2001 and 2002. In fact, the payments were never made. This money has not gone missing and is not unaccounted for, as the Comptroller and Auditor General confirms on page 10 of his report It states:

While records in respect of issues of public money and of receipts into the Fund account are incomplete for the years 1998 to 2001, the inspection team found no evidence of public money issued to the Fund in that period having been misappropriated. All sums of public money identified as having been issued by public bodies for the Fund in the period 2002 to 2009 were lodged to the Fund bank account.

We can advise the committee that following the union's taking control of the fund and on foot of the trustees' report, we ensured that all public moneys remaining in the account were returned to the Exchequer. The committee will note that almost €1 million was returned overall by way of refunds to the Exchequer.

There was responsibility on the part of the funding agencies to have service level agreements and proper oversight arrangements in place regarding the disbursement of public funds. It is incomprehensible that these arrangements were not in place. There was also responsibility on the fund administrator to keep proper books of accounts.

No income and expenditure statements were compiled or requested by the funding agencies. Unquestionably, there also should have been greater controls in our organisation in respect of the setting up of such funds and their oversight.

We did not know the manner in which this account operated. We should have known. We have, as the committee will note from the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, changed our rules in this regard and also had an external review of all our financial procedures to try to ensure that nothing like this ever occurs again.

Unfortunately the nature of the operation of the fund, in conjunction with the practices of the funding agencies, resulted in Departments and agencies effectively funding activities without proper oversight and accountability for taxpayer's money. This was totally unacceptable and we note the Comptroller and Auditor General's recommendations in this regard.

There has been controversy surrounding the use of some of this fund in respect of travel, hospitality and the use of money for non-SKILLs associated expenditure. Our organisation has never condoned the inappropriate use of public money. We believe we must always strive to ensure the highest standards of governance and accountability on behalf of the taxpayer.

This has been a very difficult issue which has caused damage to our union and hurt to our members. It is an event in our history that conflicts with the enormous positive contribution which our members have made in the development of a modern economy where rights are respected and the dignity of work is paramount. It is unfortunate that the lack of proper controls and oversight regarding taxpayers money has tarnished such an excellent concept in respect of employee training and development.

Regrettably, a cloud has been cast over a very worthwhile programme, which has helped thousands of low skilled workers to up-skill and develop their talents and which has added real value to the provision of quality public services in the health and local authority sectors throughout the country.

We believe the Comptroller and Auditor General's report has helped to verify the facts pertaining to SIPTU in this matter and we remain available to assist the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Committee of Public Accounts in concluding its inquiries.

I thank Mr. Joe O'Flynn. May we publish your statement?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes.

I welcome Mr. Joe O'Flynn to the meeting and acknowledge the fact that he has attended voluntarily and has asked to speak. As many try not to appear before the committee, it is appreciated that he has attended. Perhaps I can put two questions to the Comptroller and Auditor General before putting questions to Mr. Joe O'Flynn. How would the Comptroller and Auditor General characterise the co-operation of SIPTU during the investigation? This issue arose at the last meeting with the HSE where there were questions as to co-operation and so on.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

From the outset we were quite happy with the assistance provided by SIPTU and its disclosures to us. We had no difficulties in that regard.

It was stated in the report that SIPTU took control of the account in 2010. Is there any evidence that it had any engagement or control or interaction with the fund before that time?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

No.

I thank Mr. McCarthy. Through the Chair, I suggest to Mr. Joe O'Flynn that this is a very serious issue concerning the fund. It has caused a significant amount of disquiet among the public and in the committee because so many organisations are involved in what can only be described as a catastrophic breakdown in corporate governance. Some of the things for which the account has been used are a vulgar abuse of public funds, for example, foreign trips, lavish hospitality, thousands of euro unaccounted for, inefficient use of other funds and a wanton disregard for the public interest. How could somebody who is an employee of the union in such a high position have run this account with millions of euro going through it?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I have tried to explain how this occurred in my opening statement. Clearly the use of the "levy fund" title was a distraction as levy funds do not come under either oversight or control of the union itself. It is not captured in our accounts. It is not subject to internal or external audit. Clearly, the use of the title would have been an issue in respect of it not being identified as a fund of the union. Second, I genuinely believe that the practices of the funding agencies, whereby they had no service level agreement, did not seek income and expenditure statements, and the fact that there was no oversight at any stage contributed significantly to what the Deputy said was usually inappropriate use of public moneys in respect of this programme. Third, certainly it was our view throughout the entire period that the programme manager of the SKILL programme, who was a senior HSE employee, working out of the office for the SKILL programme was, at all times, overseeing and involved in the arrangements, the granting of the funding and so on. As I said in my statement, when we inquired of the fund administrator on several occasions as to the source of the funding, as to the approval of the funding and so on, we were advised that all of this was, indeed, approved and funded by the SKILL programme. We were told it had nothing to do with SIPTU, that the funding was for the projects which were part of the SKILL programme. All of that combined, obviously it operated without our knowledge. That is highly regrettable because had we been aware of such grants, which the HSE say were destined for SIPTU, we would have ensured that all of that money would, first of all, have been accounted for correctly and, secondly, spent for the purposes for which it was meant.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn has mentioned that the levy fund is normally not associated with head office, that it is a fund into which branch members pay and is administered for branches. What does he suppose was the motivation of the fund administrator, Mr. Merrigan, for calling it a levy fund?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

He was asked that question and his answer was to the effect that it was something that was within the organisation and his view was that he could actually have called it any title. Unfortunately, I have to say that it did contribute very largely to the fact that it remained undiscovered from the period 1998 right up to 2009 when the HSE first contacted us. It is also very regrettable that the HSE, and the bodies previous to its establishment, were contributing money to a particular programme in respect of this fund and never once contacted our head office in regard to either the agreement, the procedures or the protocols relating to it. In terms of the use of the levy fund, it certainly contributed very largely to the fact that it did go unnoticed within the organisation.

Does Mr. Joe O'Flynn believe that the motivation for calling it a levy fund was deliberately to hide it from the scope of the union?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Whether it was intended or otherwise, it certainly did act to distract the union from its oversight.

It never was and never acted as a levy fund.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

No. A levy fund within the union is a fund which is a contribution of members' levies which is for the entire purpose of either education or hardship grants. No money from the members ever went into this. It was never a levy fund. Clearly, it should never have been referred to as a levy fund.

It was established with the name levy fund, which meant that it would not come under SIPTU's audited accounts and would not be inspected by its members. It never acted as a levy fund and never took levies from members and from day one it operated as something else, other than a levy fund.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes.

Would not this lead to the inescapable conclusion that Mr. Merrigan, or the fund administrator, deliberately set it up in such a fashion as to keep it out of the union's control?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Certainly, one could draw that conclusion from the facts.

We did ask him why he referred to it as a levy fund. His answer at the time was that he could have called it anything. That is all I can say at the moment on that.

That brings us on to the next point. He stated that he could call it anything and that he was a senior employee in SIPTU. Clearly, Mr. Merrigan had an enormous amount of leeway if he believed he on his own could simply set up a fund with millions of euro going through it. I am trying to imagine a workplace with someone coming in, running this programme and having this money going through an account of which he is administrator, without mentioning it to other colleagues and without their being aware that it was going on.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Clearly, it did go unnoticed. Nobody that I am aware of ever had any knowledge of the manner in which the account operated. I certainly was aware that funding was available for the SKILL programme. When I inquired of the fund administrator about the funding, I was very specifically told that all of these arrangements were approved and funded from the SKILL programme office.

We did inquire. Obviously, our trustees conducted an investigation into this matter. It is very obvious from their report that nobody actually knew of the manner of the operation of this account other than the fund administrator himself.

On some of the matters we see coming out of the report - for instance, the foreign trips, of which Mr. Merrigan went on many - did no one in SIPTU wonder why he was gone abroad or who was paying for his trips to the United States all the time?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Inquiries were made of him about a number of the trips that were known about and the response was that these were trips in association with senior people within the public service, that they were study visits and that they were approved and funded. There was never the extent of knowledge that there is now about the number of trips. My understanding is that while a lot of trips were identified, he himself would not have participated in all of the trips. When we inquired into this matter after it came to light, we also examined his annual leave records. Some of the trips actually coincided with annual leave so, therefore, it would not have been captured within the structure of the organisation.

Did anyone else in SIPTU go on these trips?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I can tell the committee that I, certainly, as general secretary of the union, never went on any of these trips. Nor did any of my colleagues or my fellow officers Mr. Jack O'Connor and Ms Patricia King. None of us ever went on any of these trips.

There are two current members of staff who did travel, and we inquired of them as to the nature of that travel. One trip was to London for a number of days and was to do with a nursing training programme, and the other was a trip to the United States for reasons connected with the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act and changes in the legislation which were being introduced in 2004. Of the currently serving staff members of the union, there are two people who actually went on those trips. I think the records will show that the vast majority of people who travelled on these trips were not SIPTU people at all, and those are the facts.

I acknowledge that. I accept, as Mr. O'Flynn states, that two current employees of SIPTU travelled on trips. I am trying to find out whether there was any way other than through the account that SIPTU could have been notified or could have seen that there was something going on. I accept Mr. O'Flynn's point that if there are trips on which Department of Health officials are travelling, one assumes their bona fides.

With regard to the two trips on which SIPTU employees went, who did they think was paying for them? In the course of Mr. O'Flynn's inquiries, did he find out whether they felt these trips were worthwhile?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes. First, they believed that the trips had been arranged and funded by the SKILL programme office, which was run by the HSE. The inquiries we made subsequently of the two individuals found that there was value and merit in the trips. With regard to the nursing programme, for instance, there was much development within nursing and there was reform. It was a trip to London during which current practices there were examined. The person who attended from our organisation was actually involved in the nursing side of the union so it was deemed appropriate.

With regard to the second trip, as I mentioned, the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act was being amended at that time. The person who went on that trip, who was actually a health and safety engineer, believed there was value and merit in the trip and also believed that the trip had been organised and funded by the SKILL programme office.

September 2009 was the first time Mr. O'Flynn became aware that this fund existed. He had a meeting with Dr. Smith from the HSE. Obviously, Mr. O'Flynn would have talked to Mr. Merrigan quickly after that. What did he say to Mr. Merrigan?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

First of all, I have to say I was shocked when I met Dr. Smith on that Monday evening because she alleged that over €2 million had been paid to the union through grants and I certainly was not aware of that. On the evening, I actually presented her with copies of our annual accounts. She outlined the details to me and said that this audit had been going on and that the fund administrator had been assisting in the audit but that they were unhappy at that stage with the level of co-operation. Part of the problem was that the fund administrator had had a serious accident in August and was out, obviously, on sick leave. Notwithstanding that, I thought the nature of the allegation was such that I did ring him. I asked to see him. I went to his home and inquired about the issue. He said he was co-operating with the audit up to the time of the accident and that he would continue to co-operate with it. I expressed my very serious concern about the assertion that this money was meant for SIPTU and that we had no knowledge of it. At that stage, he advised me that he was appointing an auditor to assist him in compiling the information for the HSE and that he would continue to co-operate with the HSE. That was September 2009.

A report was completed on his audit in March 2010. We did not get a copy of that until July, at which stage the issue had become public and, obviously, there were serious concerns about the assertions that were being made. It was at that stage that our trustees decided to conduct their own inquiries into the matter.

Was the attitude between September 2009 and July 2010 one of wait and see?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

First of all, the individual was out sick following a serious accident. Second, he advised us that this had nothing to do with us and that the money had never been intended for SIPTU. Third, he advised us that he was co-operating through the audit and that, given that no records were kept, he was going through whatever material he had with a view to assisting the audit that he had commissioned at that time. Definitely, several months passed during which we believed that the HSE was being assisted in completing its audit.

Was Mr. O'Flynn engaged by the HSE at that time? Were they working with Mr. O'Flynn in the audit?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

No. In fact, I have to say we had a very poor experience with the HSE from the first time we met its representatives, because when they alleged that this €2 million was meant for SIPTU, they referred to the HSE audit that had been conducted and it was within the context of that audit report that the issue arose. We asked for a copy of that HSE audit to assist us in inquiries and we were refused.

When was Mr. O'Flynn refused the report?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

That happened in early 2010. The reason we were refused was that the HSE audit had directed that the matter be referred to the Garda fraud squad and the response of the HSE to us was that, because it had referred it to the fraud squad, this material was not available to us. Clearly, that did hamper us, as the committee can imagine, in terms of getting all of the detail that was then available to the HSE to conduct our inquiries.

Did Mr. O'Flynn get it in early 2010?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

We got it subsequently, in 2010, yes.

That is another issue about which I wish to speak with Mr. O'Flynn. The correspondence between SIPTU and the HSE is very tetchy. There is talk of bias and all kinds of media leaking in the correspondence which raises a question about the HSE investigation or SIPTU's co-operation therewith. We will get to that in a minute.

When this came to light and SIPTU's name was being dragged through the mud in the papers and so on, what was the sanction for Mr. Merrigan?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

We expressed very serious concern about the manner in which the fund had been operated without our knowledge. The union's image has been tarnished as a result of our association with a fund that the public believed was for us and not accounted for by us. Following the trustee's report there was a disciplinary hearing into the fund administrator and given the nature of the issue and its importance, I engaged an eminent senior counsel to assist us in reviewing the case. Subsequently the senior counsel, based on the evidence available to him at the time, issued a recommendation to us which we accepted. That recommendation effectively was that this was a very serious issue and that a penalty should be imposed because of its seriousness. It was deemed, however, that the ultimate penalty of dismissal was not warranted.

Was this after the HSE trustees' report?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

This was after the report of the trustees of the union in March-----

I apologise, the SIPTU trustees' report.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes, in 2011.

The SIPTU trustees' report, among other things, talked about waste of public money, donations to charitable events, which were clearly illegal, thousands of euro unaccounted for but the reaction was that this was not serious enough to warrant dismissal?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

The Deputy has to understand that we knew that this was a very serious issue. We invoked the disciplinary procedures in the organisation but we went beyond that and engaged a senior counsel to advise us in the matter and clearly on the evidence, all of the evidence available at the time, the recommendation was that a dismissal would not be upheld, that it was not warranted.

What sanction was implemented?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

He was demoted from a national position to a sectoral one resulting in a serious reduction in salary and benefits.

Is that a one-step, two-step or three-step demotion?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

It was one step.

He went back one step. The senior counsel told the union it could not dismiss him.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes. He said that the ultimate penalty of dismissal was not warranted given the evidence available at that time.

I question his eminence. That would be my view.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

In fairness to the man, and I have to defend his integrity, he acted in good faith in respect of all of the evidence that was available to him. I very much accepted his recommendation in good faith. I would not like in any way for his reputation to be questioned. To be fair to him he acted in good faith on the evidence available to him.

I accept that and, if possible, I withdraw that comment from the record.

This is an extremely serious issue overall. If one considers the questions I will put to the HSE later, it is an amazingly convoluted method for channelling money. It goes through the midlands health board, from the office of health management, via the health board instructions into the national health and pension forum, into the levy fund. It is so convoluted that it is almost impossible to trace. As the report states, it is difficult to see who is responsible, what the oversight is and so on. On the recipient's side there is a levy fund set up that is off books, not overseen by anybody, difficult to trace and not accounted for. On both sides of the equation there is an extremely convoluted and hidden funding path. If it had happened on one side one could accept it but if it happened on both sides it is hard to believe that there was not a deliberate attempt to create a fund that would be off-books from both sides. What is SIPTU's opinion of that?

Deputy John McGuinness took the Chair.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

We have co-operated fully with the Comptroller and Auditor General in respect of his inquiries into this matter. As the Deputy says, many different bodies were involved. Several funding agencies were involved as well as the fund administrator. There was the issue of the project manager of the SKILL programme itself. We have very much relied on the professionalism of the Comptroller and Auditor General's inspection team to identify what it believed happened here. There was inappropriate behaviour. It was outside the terms and conditions that would normally apply to public moneys being granted for a particular purpose. Many lessons need to be learned by our organisation in respect of the manner in which something like this could occur without actually being recognised.

The perception was created at this meeting in 2011 of difficulties in the relationship between SIPTU and the HSE audit team which resulted after that in numerous back and forth correspondence about issues of €190,000, two payments which Mr. O'Flynn mentioned in his presentation. When did the relationship with the HSE investigation sour and why?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

First, it is regrettable that it did sour because initially I thought there was common purpose in trying to identify the facts and clear up the issues around the public funds involved. The relationship soured primarily because our view was that material was being leaked from the HSE to the media and it would not provide us with copies of the material. Our organisation was being very specifically targeted, as the recipient of the grant, as being the one responsible for the inappropriate use of public moneys. That led to a difficulty developing in the relationship between us and the HSE. I very much regret that because it was probably a distraction from getting to the facts sooner than we did.

We were as anxious as anyone else to try to get the complete picture of all the activity surrounding this fund. That is, frankly, why we suggested, following the difficulties with the HSE that the Comptroller and Auditor General would conduct the inquiry. We did that because there were several public bodies involved in the funding arrangements. As well as that it would have statutory powers which our trustees did not have to obtain material which only subsequently came to light in the context of the Comptroller and Auditor General's investigation.

There were other moneys paid from the funds to many unions, all kinds of unions, including SIPTU. I think it was approximately €60,000.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

It was €68,000.

Was that one lump payment? What was the nature of that €68,000 and why was it refunded?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I draw the Deputy's attention to the accounts which our people prepared to assist the Comptroller and Auditor General. They are attached as an appendix to his report. In those accounts the Deputy will see that over each year some payments were made for either branches or units within the organisation, primarily in respect of education or training or seminars and so forth. The €68,000 was not paid in one lump sum by way of a grant. It was not paid in any one year. Over a long period, over the duration of the fund's activities several sums would have been paid but primarily for the purpose of education and training.

Was that in accordance with the terms and objectives of the SKILL programme and the account?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

By our reckoning the vast majority was spent on education and training, which was the purpose of the SKILL programme.

Was any spending suspect?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I return to the money which went to charity. A significant sum went to the Special Olympics. I am aware an explanation was given that over 200 voluntary activists were trained. I accept the view of the Comptroller and Auditor General that it was not necessarily the intention of the fund. There were some charitable contributions but they were minor in the context of the overall expenditure.

The report says the inspection team noted that payments were made by cheque with the full name of the fund account printed on the face of the cheque and signed by the fund administrator. Cheques given to individuals would have had SIPTU national health and levy fund printed on them.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes. I again refer to the fact that the title of "levy fund" is what would have caused people not to be concerned about knowledge in regard to grants or reimbursements, as we now know. It was believed that this was a levy fund of the members' money.

The members benefitting were heath workers.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Health and local authority workers, which was the title of the levy fund. The branches involved in training and seminars would have comprised health and local authority workers.

What was the largest payment out of the €68,000?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

There might have been a payment of €8,000. The detail is laid out in the accounts.

Mr. O'Flynn can come back to us.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I will get one of my colleagues to fill me in and revert to the Deputy.

I thank Mr. O'Flynn.

I thank Mr. O'Flynn for being here today. I concur with the comments of Deputy Nolan in thanking him and SIPTU for participating in the committee. Others have to come before it who do not want to do so. He was eager to do so and we very much appreciate that.

We have talked about this for a long time over a large number of meetings. I have read widely on the issue. I take and accept Mr. O'Flynn's account of events. SIPTU was possibly used, if I can use that word, as a vehicle for what was wrongdoing and spending taxpayers' money in an inappropriate fashion.

Mr. Merrigan was afforded an opportunity to be here but, based on his own legal advice or whatever reason, has chosen, as he is entitled, not to be here. It is highly regrettable but that is his prerogative. Mr O'Flynn said something to the effect that he could have called the fund whatever he wanted. He should have called it a slush fund.

I take Mr. O'Flynn's sincerity on this matter but I have no doubt of the aims of the fund in terms of training and upskilling. The €46,000 paid on a credit card in one single restaurant and bar, the 74 foreign trips of which six happened to coincide with St. Patrick's Day and the five private holidays to Lanzarote which were subsequently refunded by the fund administrator but nonetheless were paid on a credit card by accident did not have much to do with social partnership and certainly did not have much to do with upskilling or training low skilled workers.

Mr. O'Flynn was a very senior trade union official, and I would like to hear his reaction and how he felt when this came into the public domain. A fund which was set up for noble purposes was used for these sorts of thing.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I certainly would share the disquiet about the use of some of the fund for the purposes which the Deputy outlined. If we had control of the fund we would not have approved a lot of the expenditure. Our view is that if public money is provided for a particular purpose it should be used for that purpose and should be spent in a transparent and accountable manner. I was as concerned as anybody else when I heard the facts.

Some of the expenditure was used in a manner which was clearly outside the scope of the fund. Even if we were aware of the fund, some of the expenditure was outside its scope. While the administrator has claimed moneys were refunded and so forth, it was hugely inappropriate that moneys were used for some of the purposes outlined.

I thank Mr. O'Flynn. It is very helpful to put it on the record. There has been tit-for-tat between the HSE and SIPTU for quite a while. We have some very serious questions to ask the HSE when it comes before us. We now know the money did not go to SIPTU; I take that as accepted. Did the HSE believe the money was going to SIPTU?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

In our engagement with it, in particular with the CEO whom I met, it stated it believed the money was going to SIPTU. I have no reason to believe the previous CEO, who I met, believed that. However, if one looks at the pattern of the funding arrangement over the years and the fact that some very senior public officials travelled from the Departments of Health, Finance and others, that they could have believed our organisation was paying for the trips is, quite frankly, incomprehensible.

I accept people in the HSE believed the money was destined for and went to SIPTU but I could not accept everybody genuinely believed that. An office oversaw the SKILL programme. I understand all activities were guided through that office. There was a responsibility within it to account for the activities.

I accept that. I would prefer to put a question to Mr. Merrigan, but he is not here. Would it be the view of Mr. O'Flynn that Mr Merrigan gave the impression to the HSE or relevant agencies that he was putting this money into a SIPTU account? Was it the view of the public agencies providing funding that the money was going to a SIPTU account?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I do not honestly know. The title of the account possibly led some people to believe that it was going to SIPTU. The fact that SIPTU was associated with the title of the account would have misled some people to believe it was coming to SIPTU when it was not.

What was Mr. Merrigan's day job?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

He was a national industrial secretary and therefore had responsibility for national negotiations in regard to our health service and local authority workers. He negotiated with various agencies and departments on a national level.

I want to expand on a point one of my colleagues touched on. We know, a statement of fact, that he went to New York in March 2004, January 2005, March 2006, February and November 2007, with his spouse, Savannah in March 2008, Brisbane in October 2008 and New York in March and June 2009. We think it likely, based on the Comptroller and Auditor General's uncovering of additional trips, that he was in Orlando in April and October 2007, California in February 2008 and Texas in August, November and February 2009. Where did people think he was going? Did the trips take place during work time? Was he taking leave or working as a SIPTU official? Was he travelling as a SIPTU official? Did Mr. O'Flynn or a superior know where he was going? What was the situation?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

The extent of knowledge of the travel was not known within the organisation; about that there is no question. Some of the trips were known about and when inquiries were made it was believed that the study visits, as he called them, were arranged through the SKILL programme office and largely involved public officials other than SIPTU.

We carried out reconciliations of attendance records and, clearly, not all of the travel took place while the administrator was meant to be at work. There were periods of annual leave taken and in some cases - actually in very few cases - was there knowledge of the extent of the travel, certainly.

I accept that. He would have taken some or many of the trips, perhaps, outside of work or on annual leave. As for the trips he took during work time, Mr. O'Flynn would have presumed he was attending as a SIPTU official, with senior officials from the Department of Health, to engage in some form of research.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes. We would have had a record from him of possibly up to five trips throughout the years in relation to that. He would have given us documentation. He was actually addressing a conference in New York and I can provide the documentation to the committee if wished. He was on the list of speakers for that conference. We would have regarded that as being an acceptable part and parcel-----

I refer to the other signatory on the account. The second signatory was a Mr. Jack Kelly, who was a non-executive member of the national executive of SIPTU. Is that correct?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

He was an employee of the HSE and a member of our national executive.

Again, he would have travelled abroad on a number of occasions. He was a member of SIPTU's national executive. I presume, that like a member of any national executive board or club, there were no conversations with other members of the national executive. Was Mr. Kelly not sharing his information with the national executive?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

No. I understand how this is difficult for people to appreciate it but as I said earlier there was not any great knowledge. These trips were not broadcast within the organisation, as one can imagine. There would have been knowledge of some of the trips, as I said previously. On the question about the signatory on the account - the member of the national executive - we would again have been aware of possibly five or six trips during the period 2002 to 2009 but no more than that.

It would have been a very serious offence - if that is the right word - or internal matter, for a member of the national executive - albeit also a HSE employee - to be signing cheques inferring that it was a SIPTU account which it clearly was not.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

The trustees did inquire into that matter and their findings have been published. Our view is that the account was not authorised; it did not come under our control. It should not have been established in the manner in which it was, either by the administrator or by the signatory to the account.

If I am sitting on the other side of the table in this and I am the HSE or the Department of Health, and I see that cheques are being signed by a pretty senior official in SIPTU who works directly in negotiations in this area and also by a member of the national executive of SIPTU, one can see how the impression would have been created for people and the presumption that this money was going to SIPTU or that this was a SIPTU account.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Certainly I understand that this may well have led people to believe it was coming to SIPTU. However, I reiterate that very senior people were involved in these Departments who were actually travelling on these trips. I would have thought they surely must have known that the funding for such trips was not being provided by our organisation.

I can assure Mr. O'Flynn that they have serious questions to answer when they come before the committee. I refer to the fund administered by Mr. Merrigan who carried out or commissioned his own Grant Thornton report. He commissioned it to forensically review the transactions of the account. It is referred to in paragraph 1.27 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. Mr. Merrigan would not make that report available to the Comptroller and Auditor General. Did Mr. O'Flynn discuss at any time with Mr. Merrigan as to why he would not make it available?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes I did. I actually encouraged the administrator to provide a copy of that report to the Comptroller and Auditor General. I still believe it is not too late for him to do so and I think it would be helpful. I discussed it with him and the explanation that was offered was that this was a report which was commissioned by him and his legal advisers following the referral of the matter by the HSE to the Garda fraud squad. He regards this as part of his defence against any allegation being made against him about the use of the fund. On that basis it was indicated that the report was privileged and that the legal advice which he received from his legal representatives was that he was not to make it available.

Did Mr. Merrigan himself pay for this report?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

No. We ended up paying for this report in order to have sight of it. I will explain. Our trustees were completing their report. There were inadequate records and no accounts. Our trustees compiled their report by way of the bank statements and bank records and so forth. We were advised that there was a forensic examination of the account being conducted by Grant Thornton on behalf of the administrator and his legal advisers. Before the publication of our trustees' report, we decided it would be advantageous to see if the figures and the details could be verified. For that reason we looked for a copy of the report but we were not given it. Eventually we secured sight of the report through a legal agreement whereby we had to pay for sight of the report but on condition that we could not publish it or copy it. The answer that was given to us was that this is a legal understanding arrived at and prepared in order to assist him in the Garda fraud squad investigation. It is not our report and it never was; SIPTU did not commission it. I am still of the view that it should be made available to the Comptroller and Auditor General. It would be helpful not just to the Comptroller and Auditor General but also to all of us to dispel any cloud that hangs over us because people ask us what is contained in the report.

I appreciate that and I appreciate Mr. O'Flynn's view that it should be made available to the Comptroller and Auditor General and published. Did SIPTU pay to view report or did it pay for the report?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

We paid for sight of the report and that was arranged between our legal representatives with the legal representatives of the fund administrator.

I ask Mr. O'Flynn to excuse my ignorance but I want to tease this out. Did SIPTU pay Mr. Merrigan or Grant Thornton for sight of the report?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

No. We issued a cheque to our legal advisers who in turn paid the legal adviser to the fund administrator. They sorted out the issue between them.

That sounds to me like a very bizarre arrangement but I take Mr. O'Flynn's word. Has Mr. O'Flynn seen the report?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Our trustees got sight of the report, Yes.

Has Mr. O'Flynn seen it?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

No. The trustees were given the report. It was their inquiry and they were the people who were looking at it.

I refer now to the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, section 3.12. A sample of 56 individual payees with payments to the value of €370,000 were selected for confirmation of the amounts paid. As the payment records show only the names of the payees, the inspection team forwarded a list of payees to SIPTU and requested that it assist with the supply of addresses, where possible, to comply with data protection requirements. SIPTU then asked the individuals who are known to the union for permission to allow their contact details to be provided so that the inspection team could contact them. Forty people who had received payments from this account were identified and I think only 11 came forward to allow their contact details to be provided. The large majority of people who have been identified as a sample of receiving payments from this account on an individual basis have effectively refused to co-operate with the investigation. Is that a fair way of presenting it, in Mr. O'Flynn's view?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

We did what we were asked to do by the Comptroller and Auditor General. We facilitated the contact with the individuals. It was then a matter entirely for the individuals to co-operate.

There were issues in regard to the Data Protection Acts and so on. It is my view that the response rate was very poor.

I have a question for the Comptroller and Auditor General. My understanding is that his office identified a sample of 56 individuals who had received payments and with whom it wished to speak in order to complete its work. Our colleagues in SIPTU have indicated that 40 people contacted them, but only 11 got back to the Comptroller and Auditor General's office. Will Mr. McCarthy confirm that his office was able to contact only 11 of the 56 individuals with whom contact was sought?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes.

Can Mr. McCarthy quantify the information deficit or gap this created in his investigation?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It was possible to identify the amount of the payments involved in respect of those individuals. The only other information we had was the name on the cheque; we did not have any contact details or anything else. We could not write to people because there were no addresses. The first thing to be done, therefore, was to identify the individuals in question. SIPTU was able to determine the potential identity of 40 out of the 56 payees, all of whom it contacted to ask whether we could write to them seeking confirmation that they had received the payment in question. Only 11 agreed to do so, each of whom confirmed the payment details as stated.

Did one of those 11 transactions involve the payment of a college grant?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Not that I recall.

Paragraph 3.14 of the report mentions a payment amounting to €6,900.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

We did not identify any particular problem with the payments to any of the 11 recipients. Those who did agree to receive a letter from us wrote back to confirm they had received the payments that were recorded. None of them denied having received a payment. There is possibly some sort of assurance to be taken from that in the sense that those who declined to be contacted, while that amounted to a refusal to co-operate with the investigation, were at least not making the claim that it could not possibly have been them who received the payment.

Is Mr. McCarthy satisfied that of the 11 recipients who got back to his office, the payments made to them were in line with the aims and objectives of the scheme?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

No, I certainly am not. There was a complete lack of linkage and traceability in terms of what was achieved with the payments. The records are simply not complete enough for that purpose. We were satisfied, however, that we had 11 identifiable persons who had received a payment on that date.

Thank you, Mr. McCarthy. It seems that the more we look into this matter, the greater the information deficit that emerges. My remaining questions are for the Health Service Executive and the Department of Health. I also thank Mr. O'Flynn for his assistance.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Before moving on, Deputy Harris asked about the scale of the payments. Under appendix B2 of the report, on page 92, the third row of the table at the bottom of the page refers to individual payees. The total amount paid to the 56 individuals is given as €583,000. In the sample we looked at, 44% of the amount was confirmed by the individuals who wrote back to us, which came to €264,000. We extrapolated from that sample on the basis that it was reasonable to regard it as providing assurance around 44% of the sample. Had we gone to all of the individuals, we would probably have expected to get the same type of response. Those who did come back to us represented a more than proportionate amount of the expenditure.

I do not wish to labour the point but can Mr. McCarthy elaborate on the specified purposes for which the cumulate amount of €264,000 was paid?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I do not have the information to hand but I will look into the extent to which recipients confirmed the nature and purpose of payments received. That information does not appear on the returned pay cheques.

Thank you, Mr. McCarthy.

I have a question for Mr. O'Flynn before calling the next speaker. He indicated that Mr. Merrigan asked for the Grant Thornton report to be completed. In other words, it was done on Mr. Merrigan's instruction and he held the report. Mr. O'Flynn further indicated that the trustees were anxious to complete their own report, which they later published. Did they have sight of Mr. Merrigan's report before compiling their own?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes.

To clarify, in order to gain sight of the report, my understanding is that SIPTU paid its solicitor, who in turn paid Grant Thornton. In other words, the ultimate beneficiary of this transaction was Grant Thornton. Moreover, notwithstanding SIPTU's payment, the report remains in the ownership of Mr. Merrigan. How much did SIPTU pay either to its solicitor or directly to Grant Thornton in order to see the report?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

The report cost €76,000.

It cost €76,000 to see it? I am merely seeking clarification here.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I am happy to clarify the matter and I understand the reason for the Chairman's question. We did not commission the Grant Thornton report. In fact, we had nothing to do with it and could have taken the view that we did not want to see it. Our position, however, was that we had two trustees, supported by a financial adviser, who were asked to inquire into all the assertions relating to SIPTU in this matter. On the basis of several interviews with the administrator, bank statements and so on, the trustees compiled a report dated 25 March 2011. That report was compiled in the absence of any records. Being aware that a forensic report had been commissioned by the administrator from Grant Thornton and its legal people, we took the view that it was better to get sight of that report before our trustees completed their report, in order to verify the figures in terms of income, expenditure and so forth.

There is a very important reason we did that and why - despite the fact it was a great deal of money - it gave us some degree of comfort. The HSE was actually claiming that there were other amounts involved which were greater than those that were identified in the trustees' report. It was really important for us that the integrity of our trustees' report would stand up to scrutiny. As it has happened, the integrity of our trustees' report has stood up to scrutiny because the Comptroller and Auditor General, having spent over a year inquiring into all of the detail available, has effectively confirmed almost identical expenditure and income figures as those contained in the report. From our perspective, there was value in securing sight of the Grant Thornton report. It might have been an expensive decision but, nevertheless, I think it was the right one and I stand over it.

I am not questioning what Mr. O'Flynn said. I simply want to understand this matter, particularly in light of what has been said in respect of the questions that were asked. A former employee of the union - namely, the fund administrator - paid for a report to be carried out by Grant Thornton out of his own funds. He knew the union-----

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

The problem is that he did not pay for the report out of his own funds.

What paid for it?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I just want to correct the position. I have already stated that we paid for the report.

Did the union pay for the Grant Thornton report?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes.

That was the point I was trying to establish.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

The Chairman stated that the administrator paid for the report out of his own funds. He did not do so.

Yes, that is the clarification I was seeking. I am allowing Mr. O'Flynn to place the facts on record. I could have taken, from what he said, that the administrator asked for the report to be carried out. One would presume from listening to what was said, that one does not ask Grant Thornton to compile a report and that it will do so on the nod. Grant Thornton will charge for any reports it compiles. What Mr. O'Flynn is confirming is that the administrator may have asked for the report to be compiled but that the union paid for it. This means that it did not just pay for sight of the report, it actually paid for the report itself.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

We asked for the report and we were not given it.

But the union paid for the report.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I am going to come to that matter. We were then told that we could have sight of the report - on a legal understanding - if we paid for it. We did pay for the report. To clarify, my understanding was that the report was commissioned by the legal representative of the fund administrator subsequent to the HSE referring the matter to the fraud squad. This report was, therefore, being compiled to assist him in defending the allegation or the reference to the fraud squad. I also understand that the administrator intended that the report would have been paid for out of the fund. It could not have been paid for out of the fund because we froze the account in June 2010, with their agreement. Subsequently, we secured control of the account. It was intended that this report would have been paid for out of the fund and we clearly felt there was value in getting sight of it for our trustees and the financial advisers who were conducting the inquiry. Ultimately, we paid for it.

Mr. Merrigan, the fund administrator, had intended to use the fund to defend himself but the union saw to it that the fund was frozen. Mr. O'Flynn is of the view that it may have been Mr. Merrigan's intention to do that. I would have thought that the latter, as a former and very senior official within SIPTU, would have co-operated to the extent of at least informing the trustees about some of the matters involved. The question that arises here, however, relates to payment for the report. The union paid for the report.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes.

Regardless of what Mr. O'Flynn states, it will be difficult for people to understand how the union - despite paying for it - did not receive the report or did not obtain some sort of hard information out of it which could have been made available to answer certain questions which, to date, remain unanswered. That is the only reason I am seeking to tease out this matter.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I appreciate the Chairman's approach on the issue. What we did was we secured sight of the report. The trustees and the financial advisers clearly interrogated that report. I have provided a statement to the Comptroller and Auditor General - I think he can confirm this - to the effect that our trustees found nothing in the Grant Thornton report to cause them to alter their findings in respect of their report. I am still of the view that everybody would be best served if the administrator who commissioned the report would make it available to the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Are the trustees - who had sight of it - of the view that it would be better for the report to be in the public domain?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes. To be fair, they made it very clear that there is nothing in the Grant Thornton report which would have caused them to alter the findings at which they had arrived. What we all must recall is that the Grant Thornton and SIPTU trustees' reports were both compiled by using the same information, namely, that contained in bank statements, bank records, returned pay cheques and so forth. There were no accounts kept by the fund. I have already said - I think he can confirm this - that it would be better if the Comptroller and Auditor General were given sight of that report.

Could that not be arranged, even at this late stage, by SIPTU, which paid the €78,000 for the report?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

The only way we got sight of the report was by entering into a legal agreement to the effect that we would not publish or copy it. I have given a copy of the legal arrangement into which we had to enter in order to get sight of the report to the Comptroller and Auditor General.

What would be the position if the Comptroller and Auditor General were to say that he would not publish or copy it and that he would hand over €78,000 but would instead piggyback on SIPTU's €78,000 in order to gain sight of it? I would have thought that this might have happened. He would not be publishing it but would instead be doing exactly what SIPTU's trustees did, namely, verifying facts and figures. That is a fair thing to do.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Which is all the more reason that I cannot understand why the Comptroller and Auditor General's office has not been given sight of the report. I have done everything possible to encourage the fund administrator to give sight of the report to the Comptroller and Auditor General in the same way as he gave sight of it to our trustees. I am of the view that he would be better served by doing so. When I engaged him in respect of the matter, the fund administrator told me he was not doing as outlined because of the legal advice he had received. If I were him, I would not accept that legal advice. I am of the view that it would be better for him and everyone else if he were to give the Comptroller and Auditor General sight of the report. I do not believe it is too late for him to do so. On several occasions I asked the members of the inspection team whether they would not ask for sight of it again. I certainly tried to encourage him as best I could but I did not make any progress on it.

On foot of what has been said at this meeting, perhaps Mr. O'Flynn might ask him again.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I will do so, if that is what the Chairman wishes.

It would be reasonable to ask.

I thank Mr. O'Flynn for attending. Will he take us through the basic history of the fund, which came into being in 1998?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes.

How large was it at that point?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

The records will show that it was set up in December 1998 by the fund administrator, with two signatories on the account.

Was it set up as part of the social partnership agreement which obtained at that time?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I have no background information as to why it was set up. There was never any explanation given to me as to why it was set up.

This is an important point. It was established as a result of a deal on social partnership.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

The fund administrator has said that the SKILL programme was set up as a result of partnership and the Labour Court recommendation. The fund in my opinion was not set up as a result of social partnership nor had it anything to do with social partnership. The fund should never have been set up in the manner in which it was set up. There is no point in I or anybody trying to speculate as to why it was set up. It should not have been set up in the manner in which it was set up, full stop.

How was it set up?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

It was set up by the two individuals going into the bank and opening an account in 1998. All of us will recall that in 1998 procedures for the opening of bank accounts were much less onerous than they are today and certainly that contributed to the ease with which the account was established.

The money was to come from the HSE. Who authorised that?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

The HSE did not exist in 1998.

Who authorised the payment of the money?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

It is my understanding that the first payment was in relation to the APPM, the action programme for people management.

SIPTU had no knowledge of the setting up of this account at all?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

No. I have said that.

It was not partnership funds.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

It was never a partnership fund. All of the evidence which has been made to the Comptroller and Auditor General over a very extensive period of examination has identified the fact that this was not a SIPTU or a partnership fund.

It was a kind of freelance, maverick fund which was set up by two individuals walking into a bank and getting the money from the taxpayer somehow, willy nilly.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

It was set up in such a way that certainly we had no knowledge of the grants or the reimbursements going through it.

Moving on to the reimbursements, there were reimbursements, or refunds, made in respect of 36 individuals.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes.

How many of those were SIPTU employees?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

There was one SIPTU employee.

Only one employee reimbursed - that is all?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes.

How many of those individuals were relations of SIPTU employees?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I do not know the answer to that because we were not given the actual details. The only people we could inquire of were the people who worked for our organisation. When this matter was being investigated by the trustees of the union we circulated to all staff a number of questions, including questions asking did any of them travel, did any of them benefit, did any of them refund? Resulting from the responses which we ascertained, there was one employee who identified a refund.

How many travelled?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Two, as I explained earlier.

Are they two of the current staff?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Two current members of staff travelled.

What about past members of staff?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

We could not inquire of them. They are no longer in the organisation.

Does Mr. O'Flynn think that past members of staff travelled?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I would say it is almost certain that there were possibly some former members who travelled but I do not know the answer to that question.

Did Mr. O'Flynn try to find that out?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

No. We had a very extensive inquiry in terms of the organisation and that extended to the staff and people who were working in the organisation at the time. We did not extend it to people who had retired from the organisation, other than to ascertain whether officers who were in the union in 1998 authorised the setting up of this account, and they did not.

We have to assume that there were some members of staff.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I do not know whether we can do that but I cannot provide the Deputy with the detail around that. To be helpful to him, I know that the Comptroller and Auditor General office in its inquiries was able to obtain travel details from the travel agency, which were not available to our trustees, and it may well have additional information in regard to people who travelled that we did not have.

Regarding the trips that were made abroad by Mr. Merrigan and others, who in SIPTU approved the trips made abroad by Mr. Merrigan, which were listed by Deputy Harris?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Any official trip by any member of staff is approved by my office.

Therefore, Mr. O'Flynn approved his trips?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

We would have approved them and, as I explained, I have a record of approving about five of the trips, some of them to the UK and some of them to the US.

In respect of the rest, Mr. O'Flynn said he was taking his holiday period.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

It happened to coincide with either a holiday period or unauthorised absences.

Mr. O'Flynn's office approved them; he approved five or six. Did Mr. Merrigan report back on what he-----

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

He would have reported in the context that these were study visits examining modernisation practices within the health and local authority services and he would have subsequently organised training events-seminars using the material which was available.

Mr. O'Flynn was satisfied at the time that the trips were bona fides?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes. I did inquire. One of the reasons I took a degree of comfort that they were bona fides was the fact that it was people who were at very senior level within the Department of Health, the Department of Finance and the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government who participated in those trips. The majority of the people who travelled on the trips apparently were public servants rather than anybody else. It is fair to say that if one is advised there were very senior people within Departments participating in these study visits, one would assume there was merit in them and that they were bona fides.

Is it true that there were senior people from other Departments on these trips?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes. Again, I think the Comptroller and Auditor General can assist the Deputy in terms of the detail of that.

In retrospect, does Mr. O'Flynn think these trips were worthwhile?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I do not honestly know. All I can say is that in an independent investigation conducted by the Department of Health in relation to the value of the trips, of which I believe the committee got a copy, the findings were that there seems to have been merit and value in the trips. That was an independent investigation carried out by the funding agencies and we can only assume that is a legitimate finding.

I think Mr. O'Flynn described Mr. Merrigan as a negotiator or was it as a secretary? Would it have been in his normal portfolio or job description to be doing this?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Upskilling and-----

To travel to conferences and to be doing this?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

It would not normally be something with which our officials are associated in terms of travel; we do not travel a lot. However, this was a fairly innovative concept where support grade staff were identified as requiring assistance by way of upskilling, development opportunities and education and training. The view was that people at professional level and professional grades within the health service and local authorities had a lot of opportunity to develop their skills and talents and that in the interests of modernising the public service that all grades of staff would be facilitated by way of developing their skills and talents. I think I said in my statement that part of the huge disappointment I have about this is that there were people who were support grade staff who were working as porters and attendants and so forth who were given the opportunity to develop their skills to become nurses, EMTs or technicians. There was real value in the concept and it was a new concept. He was certainly driving it and a lot of people genuinely benefited from the developments in which he was engaged.

Mr. O'Flynn felt this was worthwhile and he made an exception for this because of the benefits that were involved. Did he realise how much money was being spent on these trips?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

No. First of all we had no knowledge of any moneys being spent in the sense that when we inquired we were advised that it was under the SKILL programme office and the SKILL programme that these study visits were taking place.

The cost was not an issue. I suggest that with people from finance involved one would assume that the level of oversight required in terms of foreign travel would have applied, as would be the norm.

It might have done then. Mr. O’Flynn said in his statement SIPTU did not know of the manner in which the account operated but that it should have known. How could it have known?

Mr. Joe O’Flynn

That really is the question. The reason I say we should have known is that there was a responsibility on the administrator to advise us that funds were being made available which were in any way associated with the organisation. Clearly, I am saying now that we should have known because we should have been informed of it. He should have advised us and it should have gone through the proper procedures in regard to, first of all, the setting up of an account and, second, the oversight of an account such as income and expenditure, internal audit and external audit.

Is Mr. Merrigan out of the organisation now?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes, he is retired.

He was downgraded and then he retired. Is that correct?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

He was downgraded and then he retired last year.

Is he on a pension?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes, he is on a pension.

How did he get the job?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

How did he get his job? Does Deputy Ross mean in terms of being an official in the organisation?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I will take the Deputy back a small bit. I am not sure of the history of how he got his job in the sense that our organisation was founded by way of a merger in 1990 of the Irish Transport and General Workers Union and the Federated Workers Union of Ireland, FWUI. On the point of the merger the fund administrator would have been an official working for the FWUI. I happened to come from the transport side. I can tell the Deputy how I got my job if that is of any interest or help to him.

No, I do not want to know how Mr. O’Flynn got his job. I thank him.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Deputy Ross is welcome.

Mr. Merrigan was part of the merger.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes, he came through the merger.

Finally, Mr. O’Flynn said he has made rule changes within SIPTU. What has he done?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

The first thing we did following the trustees’ report was to make a rule change which we brought to our biennial conference in 2011, which was the first opportunity we had, to the effect that no account bearing the name SIPTU or associated with it could be set up within the organisation without the express approval and authorisation of the national executive council of the union. The second thing we did was to conduct an internal review of our mechanisms and systems in place. Third, we had an external review.

We made significant changes to the oversight of levy funds. Previous to that, levy funds would have been completely outside the scope of the union’s accounts or records. After the rule change all such levy funds now have to be approved by way of new standing orders, which include oversight within the organisation by way of internal and external audit. Any fund, regardless of its title or how it is funded, either by way of levy or membership contribution, is now subject to internal and external audit within the organisation. That is a significant change to the procedures we implemented.

That is fine. I thank Mr. O’Flynn.

I have a couple of points which I will make quickly. I welcome Mr. O’Flynn. I support the comments made by Deputy Harris that we have often had situations in this committee where organisations and individuals who are under no obligation to be present as they are not members of public agencies, decline to attend even though it would greatly assist the work of the committee and the Comptroller and Auditor General. I greatly appreciate, as does the committee, Mr. O’Flynn’s contribution and co-operation with the Comptroller and Auditor General and others to try to get to the bottom of this issue, which he has accepted has been an unfortunate and sorry chapter in the union’s history.

I wish to put a couple of points to Mr. O’Flynn about the HSE. He referred previously to some tensions and we have seen documentary evidence to suggest that there was tension between the HSE and the union since the issue first emerged. Mr. O’Flynn stated in his contribution at the outset that the fund administrator was involved in the audit exercise with the HSE from approximately August 2009. Is that correct?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

My understanding is that he would have been involved in the audit with the HSE prior to that time. August 2009 was when he had his accident. At that stage, because he was hospitalised and recuperating subsequently there was a gap. It is only then as a result of the gap in September that the HSE first contacted us about any assistance we could afford.

Did the fund administrator not notify Mr. O’Flynn, as general secretary of the union, that he was involved in an investigation or audit into the administration of this particular fund?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

No.

Is the first time Mr. O’Flynn became aware of it when he was contacted by Dr. Geraldine Smith who was heading up the HSE audit investigation team and the contact was made in September 2009?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

That is correct.

I have been closely monitoring this issue for some time and I am very interested in some of the reportage around it; whether that is in light of the examination of this committee or between committee meetings. Is Mr. O’Flynn happy with the co-operation he received from the HSE when he went to it seeking information in an attempt to get to the bottom of the issue? Mr. O’Flynn claimed previously that in effect the HSE was spinning against SIPTU on the matter and that it might have been informed by other matters. Who knows? I am only speculating. Was an effort being made by the HSE to deflect attention away from the fact that it was effectively financing this fund and it wanted to try to direct the heat somewhere else? That said, it is clear that the manner in which the fund was administered was inappropriate. It was unacceptable to anyone in this room and it is clear that it was not acceptable to Mr. O’Flynn. That is a matter of public record. There were some bizarre and extraordinary practices. That is on record and has been identified clearly in the Comptroller and Auditor General’s report. Does Mr. O’Flynn believe the HSE was less than helpful to him in terms of getting to the bottom of the matter?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Initially, I was frustrated by the fact that we were not given a copy of the HSE audit report, which contained particular assertions to SIPTU getting the money. We spent quite some time trying to secure a copy of the document. That did frustrate us.

What was the time lapse from the point of the first contact with the HSE and when Mr. O’Flynn got a copy of the HSE internal audit report?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

There were months involved. The first contact was in September 2009 and to be fair, I had never met Dr. Smith before that. I did not know of her. I got a telephone call and I responded immediately. When I rang her she said that it was really important that she would meet us and we met her that very evening. That was the first occasion on which I had any knowledge of anything, even in terms of an audit. I offered her whatever assistance we could give because, clearly, it was in our interest to ascertain the facts surrounding the matter as well. Subsequently, when I looked for a copy of the audit report it was not forthcoming. If someone is looking for help then one clearly tries to assist him or her in that regard. I felt that did not happen in the early stages.

I recall from reading media reports at the time between August and September 2009, around the period SIPTU got the report, that certain information was put into the public domain. Did Mr. O'Flynn find he was at a disadvantage in terms of explaining SIPTU's position or his understanding of the position in the absence of that information? An interpretation I might put on it is that he was fighting with one hand tied behind his back to explain his own position as best he could, given that he did not have complete information.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

It was enormously difficult because as an organisation we were being accused of being in receipt of public moneys of which we did not have any knowledge or account yet there were figures, dates and issues about travel and, unfortunately, all that information was being fed to the media without our knowledge. The media were inquiring of us as to-----

(Interruptions).

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes, and that is fair, but we were very limited in terms of what we could say other than the facts. The facts, as I have outlined, are the facts and from the outset we have said here that this was not our account. The money was not destined for us and we had no control or accountability whatsoever for it, but it did make it very difficult for us. There was quite an amount of damage done to the reputation of our organisation which I hope the publication of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report will help undo or at least verify and clarify the role of SIPTU in regard to this matter over the period involved.

I welcome Mr. O'Flynn. I have a couple of questions. I do not want to get bogged down in detail but, effectively, €3 million of taxpayers' money went into a hole, with no accountability. No one seems to know anything about it bar, from what I can see, Mr. Merrigan. My question is on the set-up of the SIPTU national health and local authority levy fund. Was that part of social partnership? How did it come about? It was set up in 2001.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

The account itself was set up in December 1998.

Okay. How did it come about? Was it part of social partnership?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

First, it came about by virtue of it being set up by the two signatories of the-----

That is not what I am asking. How did the situation arise whereby Mr. Merrigan and I think Mr. Kiely-----

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Kelly.

-----Mr. Kelly established this? There has to have been a reason. Did this come out of social partnership? Was this fund established as part of social partnership?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

My understanding is that there was a Labour Court recommendation which recommended that training and development arrangements would be put in place in regard to the modernisation of the public services. It was felt that management and worker representatives would be better employed trying to-----

What was the basis of this Labour Court recommendation? Who was involved? How did this Labour Court hearing come about?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I think there had been quite a bit of unrest through the previous period in regard to disputes and so forth.

Who brought the Labour Court hearing? How did the Labour Court hearing arise?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

It would have been as a result of a dispute. Clearly, our organisation would have been involved with the Department of Health.

Was it a situation where there was a dispute between SIPTU and the Department of Health at the time?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

There would have been ongoing difficulties. When I say disputes, disputes are not necessarily strikes. Disputes are disagreements between the bodies.

No. I do not want-----

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

If there was a lot of unrest my understanding is that the Labour Court felt that a mechanism whereby there would be co-operation between the various bodies in working together to try to advance their understanding of what needed to be done was a better mechanism than having disputes ongoing. It was resulting from that Labour Court recommendation. If he wishes I can give the Deputy the number of it if it can be of assistance.

Mr. O'Flynn might provide it to the committee.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I will. That sets out the purpose.

That would have come about, and there would have been a Labour Court recommendation. How would SIPTU then have got to the point whereby Mr. Merrigan and Mr. Kelly set up a bank account on foot of a Labour Court recommendation of which SIPTU was party? How would it have set that up in a vacuum?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

It should not have been set up in a vacuum. It should not have been set up at all.

No, but it came on foot of a Labour Court recommendation. I have no doubt that ordinary people looking in will say this was set up out of a structure, namely, the Labour Court, which does a great deal of very good work. At that particular time, what position would Mr. Merrigan have occupied in SIPTU?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

In 1997-98 he would have been national industrial secretary.

He would have been senior management.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

He would have been a senior official in the organisation. To answer the Deputy's question, because it is a fair question, resulting from the Labour Court recommendation the SKILL programme was set up. I think everybody genuinely believed that it was through the SKILL programme that the training and development and all the other activity to which we have referred would be arranged, organised and facilitated. There was a project manager in place in regard to the SKILL programme and so I would have thought that was the vehicle by which any funding or any arrangements should have been forwarded by way of the implementation of the recommendation itself.

Mr. O'Flynn would have thought that any funding from the Department should have gone in directly to a skills programme-----

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes.

-----rather than to this particular vehicle.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Absolutely. If that had happened in the first instance, we would not be sitting here today.

Following on from that, this went on unabated for nearly 12 years. Looking at it, it was like a lucky dip in terms of dipping in for various items such as foreign travel and unaccountable stuff. I find the accounts produced - Mizars were the accountants - for the type of money that was going through this every year extraordinary. For instance, in 2011, nearly €700,000 went through it in that year. Why did the people involved not look for an audit to be carried out? There was no audit carried out. If Mr. O'Flynn reads the accountants' report from Mizars, he will see that it states that they carried out a review but the ordinary person will ask why this was allowed to continue unabated. Mr. Merrigan's salary was paid by SIPTU. Did he receive any salary from the national health and local authority levy fund?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I do not believe there was any payment to him out of the fund by way of a salary or otherwise.

Two people appeared to have enormous latitude to write cheques across a range of areas. Our role here is in terms of the taxpayer. Does it not defy logic that it ran on unchecked for so long?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I have said already that personally I found it incomprehensible that such moneys would have been provided by public bodies without any service level agreement or without any arrangements for oversight or accountability.

Following on from that, I revert to the Grant Thornton report. It cost €76,000 and was paid for by SIPTU, the cost of which obviously would come out of its ordinary members' contributions. If that cost €200 per hour, which would be a relatively high charge, by my estimation that is approximately three months' work, which is a considerable amount of work on a report. I cannot understand how SIPTU paid for the report. Did it agree it would only have sight of the report or did SIPTU then seek an actual copy of the report? Am I not correct in stating that Mr. Merrigan ultimately is accountable to SIPTU? Was the structure that was set up a trustee structure? It looks to me to be a kind of vehicle that has no structure. Who were the trustees of this national health and local authority levy fund? The accounts that were produced by Mazars make no reference to trustees or to the type of structure in place. It appears to be somewhat like cloud computing, in that it is up there in the cloud, drifting away, and no one knows exactly what it is doing, bar Mr. Merrigan and Mr. Kelly. Mr. O'Flynn should indicate precisely whether there were trustees or what was the structure?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

In respect of the trustees' report, we provided a copy to the Committee of Public Accounts.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

It sets out how we understand the account was set up.

The point I am making is the organisation appears to have been set up with no legal basis or standing. I would have thought that normally, when SIPTU sets up such levy funds, I assume within that it sets up a formal board of trustees or whatever to run those funds.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

First, levy funds that existed were set up by the members of a particular branch. In that respect, there would have been standing orders governing their operation. In that regard, the members who were contributing to the levy fund would have had control of the funds. They would have determined how the funds were spent.

Mr. O'Flynn is making my point, which is-----

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

To answer the Deputy's question, there were no standing orders relating to this particular levy fund.

Therefore, on that basis, how can Mr. Merrigan and Mr. Kelly - the former in particular - stand behind stating they are entitled as trustees? Is Mr. Merrigan actually a trustee at all? He appears to be going behind the structure that applies within the normal levy funds within the union system, which is set up by the branch members under standing orders as set down by the union. However, what has been set up here concerns two individuals, who opened a bank account with no legal structure in place of any description, yet who appear to be relying on legal protection as though it was a trust and as though they were trustees. As far as I can ascertain, they do not satisfy that criterion. Did SIPTU seek counsel? Mr. Merrigan is an employee of SIPTU and, legally, it was perfectly entitled to obtain it. As far as I am concerned, SIPTU owned that Grant Thornton report, not Mr. Merrigan, because he does not have the structure in place, in respect of being a trustee, to rely on that protection.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

What I have stated on record and what I put into this statement is this was not a levy fund. It did not operate within the understanding of the union as a levy fund.

If that is the case, then Mr. O'Flynn should explain the reason SIPTU did not take ownership and possession of the Grant Thornton report. To be honest with Mr. O'Flynn, it is as though we are in a play that resembles Hamlet without the prince with regard to Mr. Merrigan. It is as though participants in this meeting are in the play "Hamlet" without actually having sight of 'Hamlet' the character. The whole thing is farcical because we are talking in riddles here. Mr. O'Flynn should explain to me in legal terms the reason and the process by which SIPTU does not have ownership of the Grant Thornton report, because that report is significant. One does not pay €76,000 for a report unless it is pretty significant, detailed and costed. Under its terms of reference, to whom was Grant Thornton reporting?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I already have explained that SIPTU neither owned nor commissioned the Grant Thornton report. It was commissioned, as I understand it, by the legal representatives of the fund administrator. Consequently, the fund administrator effectively is the owner of the report. I have explained already the only reason SIPTU paid for it was because we wished to have sight of it in order that we could try to verify, in so far as possible, the factual detail relating to the income and expenditure. Moreover, we were able to do that. I still am of the view, which I repeat, there is no reason that sight of this report should not be given to the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Did SIPTU seek legal opinion or counsel opinion regarding its legal rights over the Grant Thornton report?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I provided legal correspondence to the Comptroller and Auditor General's inspection team in respect of the understanding we had. We were not entitled to either copy or furnish that report to anyone in respect of a legal understanding the legal people had. I was advised that our legal people gave an understanding and that they are acting as officers of the court and therefore cannot breach that understanding. Yes, we took legal advice.

Then what has happened in this regard does a disservice to the unions, because I believe SIPTU does great work, as well as with regard to how taxpayers' money is spent. Moreover, there still is a vacuum here in respect of unanswered questions. We did not have the critical part of the report, which is the Grant Thornton report, or the main key players involved, including Mr. Merrigan in particular. We really are at a loss as to how this was allowed to continue and as to the process by which it continued over many years. However a great number of people benefited significantly out of the fund in terms of personal travel and travel abroad and this does a disservice to the ordinary union member, to the taxpayer and the ordinary person. It is a sad day.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

In response to this, as the Deputy is aware we were not compelled but actually sought to appear before the committee of our own volition.

Yes, and I appreciate that.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

We did so because we want to assist the committee, the Comptroller and Auditor General and the public at large with their understanding of what was SIPTU's role in this issue. As far as I am concerned, if there is any cloud remaining, I assure the Deputy we will do whatever we can to try to bring clarity. I guarantee that to the Deputy.

I appreciate that and thank Mr. O'Flynn.

To finish this round of questioning, when was the Grant Thornton report commissioned?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

My understanding is that it was-----

I acknowledge this is included in the paper presented but Mr. O'Flynn might confirm it.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I believe Mahon & Co was commissioned first of all by the administrator to conduct an audit.

It concluded its audit in March 2010 and it was insufficient. The HSE was not satisfied with it. It is my understanding the HSE audit required the matter to be referred to the Garda fraud squad and that it was then that the administrator engaged his legal people.

When was that again?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

It would have been after March 2010.

When was the report finished?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Our report was-----

When did Grant Thornton finish its report?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I think it might have finished its report in February 2010.

When did Mr. Merrigan retire?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

He would have retired from the organisation last year, about one year ago.

In 2012. When did SIPTU freeze the account?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

We froze the account, with its agreement, in June 2010.

Was there any payment made from the account to Mahon or Grant Thornton?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

My understanding is that before the account was frozen in June 2010 Mahon was paid from it.

How much was it paid?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I honestly do not know.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It was paid €12,000.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I am sorry, €12,000.

Returning to the HSE, because we will now speak to its representatives, although I am not sure of Mr. O'Flynn's wording, he suggested it was leaking information or spinning to the media.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I suppose all I can say to the committee is that as it was its report which was appearing in the media, I can only assume.

Did Mr. O'Flynn take it up with it at the time?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I did. I had a very serious discussion-----

With whom?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

-----with the CEO of the HSE.

Who was it?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

It would have been Mr. Cathal Magee at that stage. To be fair to him, he gave me an understanding that there would be co-operation between the two bodies in trying to determine the facts of this matter. It was prior to his taking over as CEO that I would have said the difficulties arose.

Has Mr. O'Flynn carried out an assessment within his organisation of the numbers of staff, I presume at the lower grades, who would have benefited from the education and upskilling required that was being talked about in the context of social partnership?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

What we would have ascertained from the trustees' report was that there would apparently have been about 13,000 training days involved.

Training days.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes. In all, there would have been 5,000 people who had benefited from training and development during the period of the programme, although the vast majority of them would have been public servants, that is, employees of the HSE, the local authorities and so forth. There was a very small number of SIPTU staff involved and they would have been at official level where they would have been engaged on the other side of negotiations and so forth.

Does Mr. O'Flynn have a figure for, say, the legitimate training carried out under this fund and then separately for the money not accounted for or accounted for in this way?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

As I understand it, all of the training carried out was legitimate. All of the seminars, conferences and scholarships were legitimate. I have no reason to believe it was otherwise.

To understand the levy accounts, a branch has a levy account for its members' contributions. I heard all of what Mr. O'Flynn had to say about it. I merely want to establish whether it was unusual - I understand it was not a standard levy account, but Merrigan was calling it a levy account - that so much could be spent from one levy account. Did somebody ask, "How many members do you have over there in that branch because you seem to be spending a great deal of money out of this levy account?" Did it sound an alarm bell for someone that there were no members there and that it should not have been called a levy account? Did someone - not necessarily someone senior or someone who was around the system at the time - begin to ask questions as to why there were no members with a significant levy account and a significant number of members with very little of a levy account?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

There was no knowledge of the spending of the amounts about which we are talking here.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

What there was-----

No, Mr. O'Flynn-----

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Just let me explain.

In explaining I want Mr. O'Flynn to cover this ground. I am giving him the opportunity to explain it.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes.

There was knowledge of people benefiting from this levy account or whatever one wants to call it because they were going on trips. They were going away. There must have been chit-chat about it that might have drawn Mr. O'Flynn's attention to it. It is that aspect of it that I want him to address merely for clarity purposes.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

No problem. It was understood the trips were not to be paid for from the levy account. That information did not materialise until the trustees of our union inquired into the assertions being made in relation to the use of the so-called levy fund.

In respect of the involvement of the union in the levy fund, I have detailed clearly that there were some activities relating to training and development. It was to the tune of €68,000 in total over the entire period of years. That would not be big money in the context of it being spread over nine or ten years and in the context of training and development provided for. There would have been no alarm bells rung in our mind in relation to that level of spending. It is a minimum sum of money in terms of training and development.

I have one question.

I will come back to the Deputy, as I want to ask this question. There was a steering group. Is Mr. O'Flynn familiar with it?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I am aware that there was a steering group, but I would not have been familiar with it. I was not involved with it in any way.

Mr. Attlee was a member of the group and was chairman of it. It was a group which was, presumably, looking over this, developing the programme in place to up-skill front-line staff, etc. Was there no word from it? Was there no concern that there were no reports coming back? Mr. Merrigan and Mr. Smith were on the group. Did that cause any concern because it was a big programme?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

No.

There was a task to be undertaken in terms of social partnership. We know what that task was.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes.

We will not go into it. Did someone, within the organisation or any union, in chatting with workers, hear anyone state he or she had not got any benefit from this new social partnership deal that stated workers should be up-skilling and that he or she was anxious to do so? Around this, was there no chat, no conversation or no reporting back? Was no one raising questions?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

As I have explained, there was knowledge of the SKILL programme, but it was believed the activities were being arranged and conducted from the SKILL programme office.

Is that the HSE's office?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes. Prior to that, there was a SKILL programme in place. It was believed the SKILL programme was being run directly in that fashion. That was the understanding.

Therefore, there was nothing. Having listened to the evidence this morning in terms of Mr. Merrigan and the trips we have had listed, some of which were taken while on leave, some of which were taken with notice to Mr. O'Flynn, his office or wherever else and some of which were taken without-----

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Authorisation.

-----authorisation, did this cause staff to ask, "Where has he gone now?"

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

If there had been knowledge of the extent of travel-----

No. Given his absence from the office and his normal duties, would an employer ask, "Where has he gone now?" Some of the trips were taken twice in the one year and, presumably, were for a number of days.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

If the trips were being taken without our knowledge - the truth of the matter is that many of them were taken without our knowledge - we would not have known about them.

In terms of his position, he was a senior official and would have worked pretty much autonomously within the organisation. He would have had a national role and, therefore, it was clearly assumed that he was doing the work for which he was employed.

Given all the conversations we had about this before and now and the budget of €12 million for the SKILL programme, there seems to have been no control over the expenditure of the other moneys. The State completely missed this.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

The committee will have to engage with the public bodies whose responsibility it was to oversee that. We were not involved in the spending of the €12 million or in the SKILL programme. We were not involved-----

I understand that. I am not apportioning blame. Having listened to the evidence I wonder, based on all the scrutiny in the past and now, why this was not uncovered long before now, and why people within SIPTU or other unions, or people who were connected with the activities of the two gentlemen in question, did not talk about this or pick up on it in any way. I am not in any way laying blame at Mr. O'Flynn's door.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I appreciate that.

I ask Mr. O'Flynn to understand the frustration of members and the disbelief over the fact that some of these activities could have taken place without anybody knowing about them. I am taken aback by the fact that someone who was employed at a high level within the union does not co-operate in terms of the report. It forces Mr. O'Flynn's union – the cost is borne by its members through membership fees – to pay €78,000 just to get sight of a document. The individual should actually be assisting Mr. O'Flynn to clear his name. I am not casting any doubt on Mr. O'Flynn's good name in saying that. The individual concerned does not understand the gravity of the whole matter.

Mr. O'Flynn says the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General took over responsibility for the report. In actual fact, this committee asked the Comptroller and Auditor General whether he would intervene because we could not achieve a resolution between SIPTU, the HSE and this committee in terms of its role. At this stage, Mr. Merrigan does not understand the significance or gravity of the matter, or that all we are trying to do in our business is establish the overall narrative that fills in the gaps and outlines to people exactly what happened.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

The record will show that we wrote to the Comptroller and Auditor General asking him to conduct this inquiry into the matter before the Committee of Public Accounts made the same request. The reason we made a request was that we wanted to act in good faith with a view to assisting everybody present in understanding what took place. I have said already that we were every bit as frustrated and concerned as the Chairman in relation to questions that arose over the use of public money. We have genuinely gone out of our way to try to explain, in so far as we possibly can, what went on here. Regrettably, the truth of the matter, as confirmed by the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, is that this should never have happened in the first instance and would not have happened in the first instance if the people who were giving over the money had put proper procedures and protocols in place. We would not be sitting here today if that had happened in the first instance.

There were one or two items that arose this morning in respect of which Mr. O'Flynn is to revert to us with further information.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I will certainly do that.

We may not get much of a response but, out of public concern, Mr. Merrigan could be questioned again on foot of this morning’s hearing.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

I will certainly do that.

I, as with other members, appreciate Mr. O'Flynn's attendance and the fact that he has been helpful and co-operative. It is important that this be put on record.

I thank Mr. O'Flynn for appearing before us. How did it come about that Mr. Merrigan and Mr. Kelly were the ones who opened the bank account?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

They were not requested by anybody to open the account. They were not authorised by anybody to open the account; it was of their own volition.

Surely they must have got a direction from someone at some level that the account should be opened.

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

No. That has been established in the evidence presented to the Comptroller and Auditor General. The Comptroller and Auditor General has confirmed that in his report. Nobody gave them authorisation.

Did they establish the contact with the HSE and the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

Yes.

Was it totally independent of everyone?

Mr. Joe O'Flynn

It is in the report.

I thank Mr. O’Flynn.

The witness withdrew.
Sitting suspended at 1.45 p.m. and resumed at 2 p.m.
Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin (Secretary General, Department of Health) and Mr. Tony O'Brien (Deputy Chief Executive and Director General Designate, Health Service Executive) called and examined.

I welcome the witnesses. I ask them to turn off their mobile phones as they interfere with the sound quality and transmission of the meeting. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If a witness is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and the witness continues to so do, the witness is entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of his or her evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and witnesses are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her, them or it identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provision in Standing Order 163 that a committee shall also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

I welcome Mr. Tony O'Brien, director general designate of the HSE, and ask him to introduce his officials.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I am joined by Dr. Geraldine Smith, assistant national director of the HSE's internal audit division, and Mr. Michael Flynn, the national director for internal audit.

I welcome Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin, Secretary General of the Department of Health, and ask him to introduce his officials.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I am accompanied by assistant secretary general, Ms Frances Spillane, and Mr. Paul Howard and Mr. Larry O'Reilly from the legislative unit of the Department of Health.

I welcome again the permanent witnesses, Mr. Heffernan and Ms Buckley. I ask Dr. McLoughlin to make his opening statement.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I acknowledge the importance of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General in highlighting serious weaknesses in the system of governance, oversight and accountability in the allocation and expenditure of these public funds. Implementation of the report's recommendations will benefit not only the health services but the wider public service. The report identifies a number of issues of general concern in the administration of grant funding by public bodies arising from the development and operation of the fund and presents a set of recommendations designed to improve the control over and accountability for State grants. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform accepts the recommendations and proposes to progress them in co-operation with the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. This will address the systems failures and weaknesses in governance which have been identified in the report.

My predecessor, Mr. Michael Scanlon, the former Secretary General at the Department of Health, has already dealt comprehensively with the background matters of my Department's involvement in the funding of SKILL and partnership programmes, the question of foreign travel by departmental officials, the Ernst and Young value-for-money report and the SIPTU report. For my own part, I acknowledge the deficiencies identified by the Comptroller and Auditor General and support strongly the recommendations for change. On deficiencies in maintaining records of issues of public money and receipts into the fund for the years 1998 to 2001, it is a relief to note that the inspection team found no evidence of misappropriation of public money issued to the fund in the period. The inspection team confirmed also that all sums of public money identified as having been issued by public bodies for the fund in the period 2002 to 2009 were lodged to the fund bank account.

Prior to the establishment of a dedicated fund for the SKILL programme, the Department issued various funding sanctions for the training of support staff and for partnership initiatives involving the SIPTU health division. This was against the background of a highly adversarial industrial relations climate, climates existing in the health service and considerable investment in the training and career progression of nurses, allied health professionals and non-consultant hospital doctors. There was high level Government and ongoing ministerial support for these partnerships and training programmes and the various funding sanctions issued by the Department were informed by that support. Partnership was Government policy and the national agreements and social partnership applied across the service. Appropriate partnership structures and funding were put in place in the different parts of the public service. Partnership was seen as an enabler of change and modernisation through the development of a shared vision of the service by management and staff. The report refers to the governance framework for the SKILL programme developed by the HSE in consultation with the Department of Health in 2005 and signed off by the SKILL steering group in June that year.

It is important that I acknowledge that the Department should have been more vigilant to ensure the governance framework was implemented. While the framework might have been imperfect, its implementation in 2005 would have put the HSE in a position to deal with the issues relating to SKILL programme administrative expenditure which only surfaced in late 2009 as a result of its own internal audit. The controversy surrounding payments to SIPTU should not detract from the merits of the SKILL programme itself which, notwithstanding the concerns expressed in the Ernst and Young report, has provided support staff with a solid training framework for career development leading in turn to improved services for patients by enhancing the skills of the health service workforce. Approximately 8,600 staff have been trained under the programme. The availability of the programme is particularly relevant today in the context of reducing other staff and other resources and the need to optimise the skills and effectiveness of the entire health service workforce to protect services to patients and clients.

With regard to foreign travel, five serving and one retired departmental official participated in a total of ten overseas study visits between 2003 and 2009. The officials who participated in those visits did so with the prior approval of their line managers. The visits were relevant to problems being addressed within the Irish health service at the time and the joint management-union composition of delegations reflected the then-policy of developing and supporting a partnership approach to organisational change. Full details of the study visits were furnished to the committee by my immediate predecessor. I confirm to the committee that the Department has no knowledge whatever of the additional foreign travel identified in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report No. 80. I welcome the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and will do my best to answer the committee's questions.

Before I conclude I wish to add the following. Mr. Matt Merrigan, the demoted SIPTU national industrial secretary, was a trustee of the SIPTU national health and local authority levy fund account. All Department of Health officials dealing with Mr. Merrigan that I have interviewed did so on a bona fide basis in relation to both the levy fund account and broader health issues. Department officials understood that the levy fund account was an official SIPTU account approved and sanctioned as appropriate by the national executive council or head of finance and administration of the union and, thereby, subject to SIPTU governance, transparency and accountability mechanisms. The opening and operation of the levy fund account without the authorisation of the general officers or head of finance and administration of SIPTU is substantially a matter for SIPTU to address. I add those points for clarification.

Can Dr. McLoughlin provide the committee with a copy of the issues he just raised for the purposes of this meeting?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I am very happy to do that.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I thank the Chairman and members for the invitation to attend today. I confirm that I concur fully with the Secretary General's opening statement. In the interests of brevity, therefore, I do not propose to repeat any of the points that he has made.

The HSE welcomes the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and his review of the financial records of the unauthorised account and, in particular, the additional transactions identified. All of the audits conducted by HSE internal audit and the Comptroller and Auditor General between 2009 and 2013 identified serious breaches of HSE controls and regulations which resulted from significant control, governance and oversight deficiencies and the failure to adhere to existing controls and procedures rather than a lack of such controls and procedures.

Following these audits, the HSE took immediate action to address these issues. For example, the HSE subsumed both the SKILL programme and the health services national partnership forum, or HSNPF, within the HR directorate of the HSE, strengthened its foreign travel procedures, commissioned Mr. Turlough O'Sullivan to examine the overseas travel undertaken by HSE staff, engaged Ernst and Young to undertake a value for money review of the SKILL programme and took steps to ensure comprehensive compliance with its regulations on payments, travel and procurement.

Between 1998 and 2009, funds totalling €3,383,536 were paid into the unauthorised account by the office for health management, or OHM, the SKILL programme and the HSNPF. I have given a breakdown of the individual sums in the briefing note circulated to members. To date, refunds totalling €1,026,619 have been received from the five trade unions on foot of HSE audits. This includes an additional €27,618 recently received from two unions following the publication of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. The 18 additional trips recently identified by the Comptroller and Auditor General bring the total number of SKILL and partnership foreign trips undertaken between 1997 and 2009 to 74, of which 54 were arranged and paid for from the unauthorised account. Of these, four were possibly paid for by SKILL or the OHM offices and 16 were arranged and paid for by the health service national partnership forum.

Many of the governance issues and controls weaknesses that emerged from the SKILL audit reports related to the fact that the SKILL programme had operated as a silo outside the HSE. There was a lack of clarity and a great deal of confusion among various parties as to the programme's governance arrangements. There was a lack of clarity in reporting relationships and lines of accountability. The fund administrator of the unauthorised account was a key member of the SKILL steering committee who was allowed by SKILL management to have a close involvement in the executive function of the programme and SKILL management, and the office for health management did not query with the Department of Health the lack of terms and conditions for the award of significant grant funding to the unauthorised account. The governance issues and controls weaknesses that emerged regarding the HSNPF payment of partnership moneys to the unauthorised account arose from the nature of the partnership operating model and the role played by the HSNPF joint chair who was also the fund administrator of the unauthorised bank account. It is important to state that the current and former HSE managers interviewed by HSE internal audit confirmed that they were unaware that the SIPTU national health and local authority levy fund was an unauthorised account of the union. They believed they were dealing with the fund administrator in his official capacity as a senior official of the union.

The HSE acknowledges that the issues identified by our own internal audits and by the Comptroller and Auditor General's reports on these matters represent significant and unprecedented failures in control and governance. Such breaches were and are unacceptable to the HSE, which has moved very quickly to address the issues by implementing the extensive range of actions recommended by both internal audit and the Comptroller and Auditor General. A clear message has issued to the system that such breaches of the HSE's governance and controls framework are completely unacceptable and will not be countenanced in any circumstances. I commend the detailed investigative work conducted by the HSE's internal audit at the request of the HSE's national director for HR which uncovered these control breaches in the SKILL programme, the office for health management and the health service national partnership forum. We are happy to respond as fully as we can to any questions the committee has.

May we publish both statements?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Yes.

I welcome Mr. O'Brien, Dr. McLoughlin and their officials to the meeting and thank them for attending. Mr. O'Brien and Dr. McLoughlin were not in place the last time the committee was asking questions on this topic. I am interested in their perspective as new officials in the Department of Health and the HSE. Having the Comptroller and Auditor General's report provides us with great finality. We know the facts. What we do not know is the motivation. We had a very interesting session this morning with Mr. O'Flynn of SIPTU during which we went through the background to the deliberate establishment of the fund to, in my view and in all likelihood, avoid detection. It was established in such a way as to ensure it would not come up on their audit accounts. They would not have to see it and it could be kept quiet. The Comptroller and Auditor General refers in his report to the setting up of the funding routes. The report is very stark, stating:

The complex routes used to channel public money to the fund created a risk that there would be confusion about responsibility for oversight and accountability for funding.

We had money going from the OHM and the Department of Health to the Midlands Health Board, the national health partnership fund and to a levy account. It was going all over the shop. From the point of view of the health service provider, there was a complex, difficult to trace method of funding over which there was a lack of oversight. On the union side, we had a fund which appeared to be set up ideally to prevent detection. That cannot be a mere coincidence. The facts are out there on lavish spending on foreign trips and hospitality, including a €100,000 Beaumont Hospital trip which was considered useless by those who took part in it. I find it hard to believe this inefficient and wasteful spending was a perfect storm of governance. We are into something a bit stronger than that. As two outsiders who were not present in the organisations at the time, do Mr. O'Brien and Dr. McLoughlin share that view or suspicion?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

The Comptroller and Auditor General has done the State some service, as has the committee, in dealing with the issue. There were serious systemic failures. There is no question about that. As Secretary General of the Department of Health, I would not be happy with the type of arrangements and funding processes under discussion.

One has to look back and see what were the pressures. Clearly, there were industrial relations pressures. Partnership was the way of doing business. We have moved on a great deal and are in a different space. Certainly, as Secretary General of the Department of Health right now, I assure the committee that we will learn the lessons from this and take firm effective action to ensure there is no recurrence of the issues. There will be greater accountability and transparency within the system and we will work very closely with our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Comptroller and Auditor General to learn the lessons and ensure they are applied.

To be quite frank, I was a bit shocked at the extent of the file and very surprised at some elements of what happened. Nevertheless, there were benefits there. One has to be balanced. It is important that we learn the lessons and that is where I would leave it.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Looking back at it through the lens Deputy Nolan describes, it is clear that the arrangements were both Byzantine and labyrinthine and created a significant risk of control failure. In terms of the funding side, it was not entirely unusual for funding to be routed on a conduit basis for various projects - that is via one health board to a specific shared office, in this case the office for health management. The overall governance arrangements and the lack of clarity on them created a context in which there was insufficient scrutiny of how the funds were then used and managed. On the other side of the equation - and I do not want to impute motives because I have no evidence upon which to do so - the establishment of an account and the management of it by the most senior health sector official of a trade union bearing the name of that union and operated in the same branch as that union operated its corporate accounts clearly and could only give the impression that it was an official union account. Why, therefore, it was not a union account is open to question. In other words, what was the objective of giving the appearance of it being a union account when it was not?

The overall view, however, is that all of the official objectives of this approach as set out in the original Labour Court recommendation could have been achieved much more satisfactorily in a much more streamlined way with effective governance and without the risk of misuse of public funds. The bottom line is that the learnings from this were implemented as soon as they became available. No such arrangements will ever exist again.

I accept that point. Mr. O'Brien mentioned insufficient scrutiny and corporate governance.

The question no auditor will ask is whether the insufficient scrutiny was deliberate or accidental. There are too many officials from different Departments involved who went on trips and benefited from the scheme. Documentary evidence for the sanctioning of funding is missing and there is a poor audit trail, which Dr. Smith has told us before. It is not good enough to say it will not happen again. If there are people currently involved in the administration of the health service, be it through the Health Service Executive, HSE, or the Department of Health, who were involved in this, had knowledge of it and were party to it, then we cannot let it go and claim it will not happen again. There have to be sanctions.

Mr. Merrigan was demoted and eventually took early retirement. There is a Garda investigation into his actions taking place. I find it difficult to believe there was only one person who knew this was going on and that no one in the Department of Health or the HSE realised there was something suspect or was a partner to it.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

My predecessor had a report prepared on this which showed that five serving officials and one retired official participated in a total of ten trips between 2003 and 2009. The sum involved in terms of subsistence paid by the Department was €6,200. All of the travel arrangements other than that were paid for by the SIPTU levy fund account. There was prior approval from the officials’ line managers. Any officials in the Department of Health involved in these foreign trips had line approval at the time. It is very clear there were also benefits accruing to the Department at that time.

To deal with the governance issue frankly, I am unhappy about the fact there were not effective governance arrangements in place to the period it was run by the Office for Health Management and the Midland Health Board and right through to the HSE.

The Vote shifted from the Department, however, on 1 January 2005. The position then would have been a matter for the chief executive officer of the HSE. I am quite clear that the participation of officials in the Department of Health in these processes was authorised, benefits accrued and the payments were in order to the best of my knowledge.

The Vote changed from the Department of Health to the HSE in 2005. Much of the criticism of the spending in question has been to do with study trips to the United States and so on. Miraculously - or coincidentally - many of the trips happened around St. Patrick’s Day. In 2004, there was a trip to New York. In 2005, there were trips to Los Angeles and Australia. In 2006, New York. In 2007, Boston. In 2008, Georgia. In 2009, New York. All were around St. Patrick’s Day.

The funding to the HSE changed to a block grant because it could not be guaranteed it would continue because the Department would no longer be involved. In the SIPTU report, a letter, dated 12 December 2004, to Mr. Merrigan from a Mr. Bernard Carey, director of personnel management and development, stated €250,000 has been earmarked to maintain support for SIPTU’s human resources personnel development schemes and the development of management-union partnerships for best practices in health enterprises. This is someone from the Department of Health ensuring that when the HSE is established, this block grant, unaccounted for, will continue.

I am sorry to have to do it this way but if one looks at the six trips to New York, Mr. Bernard Carey took part in five of them. This is the kind of issue I am talking about. We have the person who sanctioned the funding going on the trips which happened afterwards. We are all now looking back saying this is scandalous but this was the person who sanctioned the funding in the first place. Does Dr. McLoughlin believe this was simply a catastrophic failure of governance or there was more to it?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

The answer is that it was a catastrophic failure of governance. My predecessor examined this and he determined that this was in effect the case. I am only in office a year. I do not think there would be any point in me re-investigating these matters as they have been dealt with. I am not happy with the governance arrangements in place. I assure the Deputy that I will take steps to ensure there is no recurrence. That is as far as I can go.

I accept that point regarding the future. However, Dr. McLoughlin stated in his opening statement that people dealt with Mr. Merrigan on a bona fides basis. They dealt with him on a bona fides basis by giving him cash without asking questions, not operating a governance structure or having an idea how it was spent. To me that does not come across as a bona fides basis for dealing with somebody.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I am very happy to deal with and share the details of the trips.

My questions are broader than the trips. It is about the general attitude to the funding.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I did interrogate matters to find out where the trips were to and for what, and asked for details about what meetings took place. I am very happy to give the committee the details. I understand it may have been presented to the committee before.

Will Dr. McLoughlin take us through it again?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

Mr. Carey, Mr. O'Sullivan and Mr. Frank Ahern, who retired, did go to New York from 15 to 21 March. They had meetings with union leaders regarding human resources and industrial relations developments. They visited the City University of New York regarding upskilling, support staff and education.

In March 2007 when they went to Boston, Mr. Carey was on that trip with Mr. Frank Ahern, and the meetings were with the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MIT, regarding re-education exchange management seminars with various colleges, etc.

There was another trip in March 2008 to Savannah, Georgia. Again, a seminar was addressed on managing change in the workplace. The US experience relevant to the situation existing in Ireland at the time was also clear.

On the trip to Australia, via the US, there was another senior official. They met with community and public service union leaders, as well as senior officials in the health system, which are well-documented and logged. We are talking about the maximum of ten trips.

In March 2009, Mr. Carey and Mr. Ahern went to New York. Again, it was working with Cornell University looking at ICT issues and meeting with Lehman College.

On another trip to Vancouver, Canada, there were significant meetings with senior officials at the health Department there. They also visited various hospitals.

On 13 to 20 March, there were meetings with hospital employers and unions at St. Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital Centre and the City University of New York. There was a visit to Minneapolis in September 2004 which included visits to a range of facilities, along with meetings with various federations and conciliation service.

Mr. Ahern had a variety of meetings in Los Angeles and in Victoria, Australia, which are well-documented.

Before I came to the committee, I asked for these details on the five serving and one retired officials who went on these journeys from 2003 to 2009 and am happy to provide it to the committee.

This is the factual position as known to me as Secretary General. I have been upfront and honest in saying that I believe the committee and the Comptroller and Auditor General are doing the public some service here and we have matters to learn. Unfortunately, the one major deficit is that the governance framework which was to be put in place in 2009 was not followed through and implemented in a manner that would be reasonable. There was a framework produced but it was not followed through. I am unhappy about that but I am being direct on that question. That is why I have emphasised the governance issues.

I completely accept everything Dr. McLoughlin said. I am not questioning his bona fides or integrity for one second. However, as Secretary General of the Department of Health, does he not accept that his officials chose to go to the United States of America around St. Patrick’s Day to learn about health provision? If we are looking at health models appropriate to the Irish system, I am not sure the American model is the one we want to follow.

The letter of the law may have been followed. I am sure events ticked the box for study visits. However, the fact is they were all to big cities in the United States, with one to Australia, around St. Patrick’s Day. Would they have been better off going to the United Kingdom, Germany, Scandinavia, places with proper health systems?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I need to make it clear that there was no impropriety on the part of any official in the Department of Health. I also need to make it clear that the Department did not organise the trips. Departmental officials were invited to participate in the trips. In respect of why they went to the US or Canada, I was not around at the time. I can see some advantages in checking in and visiting state-of-the-art facilities and ensuring evidence-based learning is available from other countries. Certainly, I would be like Deputy Nolan in looking more to the UK or perhaps EU countries such as Finland but there are lessons to be learned from the US. Many of the cutting-edge developments in health care come from the US, Canada and Australia. There is no doubt that because of our relationships with those countries, there is much exchange of information. There are good sides to that. In the areas of pharmacology and pharmaceuticals, there are large benefits in terms of areas like medical devices. The health system benefits from learning about how they do business in a better way in other jurisdictions so I would be strongly of the view that connections with the US, Canada and Australia are worthwhile. Of course, we have technologies that enable us to do it online and there is a range of other methodologies for learning. I am quite clear that we are in a very different environment than we were during those years where we were in a partnership environment and where issues were driven in a particular way by the senior political figures of the day. They were trying to enhance the process within the health system. There was a major change agenda in terms of the establishment of the HSE. Hindsight is perfect vision but all I can do as Secretary General is look forward and assure the Deputy that we will learn the lessons, be vigilant, ensure that we get value for money in everything we do and be accountable through this and other committees of the Oireachtas for that.

I accept that the Secretary General wants to be accountable and that he is doing everything he can to make sure it does not happen again. However, I remain concerned and am not convinced that the spirit of the law and regulations were followed by five trips to the US around St. Patrick's Day concerning health issues. Could Dr. McLoughlin talk about the point I mentioned, namely, that one of the people who went on those five trips sanctioned the funding every year? This person set it up, negotiated it and said "Dear Mr. Merrigan, we are going to give you a quarter of a million euro every year in the future." If I am wrong, could Dr. Smith correct me?

Dr. Geraldine Smith

That is correct.

So I am right on that?

Dr. Geraldine Smith

Yes.

So the person who sanctioned it was a person who benefited from it. I do not wish to single out this one individual. He is the only person for whom I have paperwork. Again, we are back to the fact that so much paperwork has gone missing and so much documentary evidence has disappeared. I cannot accept that all of this is just one grand governance storm - one perfect storm of corporate governance failure. If it was not mala fides but just a disregard for procedure, that would answer it for me but I do not accept that all of these people were doing their best and suddenly looked around in 2009 and said "God, what happened there over the last six years? How did that happen?"

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

When one is dealing with some of these matters, one must have regard to natural justice and the factual position. I am quite clear that I have no evidence that there was any impropriety that is alleged there and collusion on the part of people to go to the US around the St. Patrick's Day weekend. I must deal with the factual position. I cannot get into the realm of speculation. My predecessor and I have interrogated the matters and I am satisfied that the number of trips from 2003 to 2010 was ten. The independent reports I have received indicate that they were relevant to the problems addressed within the Irish health service at that time. The joint composition staff-management union was the norm for partnership. I assure the Deputy that we will be very careful in future about these trips.

We must also bear in mind that the country was seen as a model for industrial peace at that time and that we were seeking to develop a different model of health care through the HSE. It would be unfair to single out one official of my Department who is an honourable public servant of the highest integrity and has served his country with distinction for over 35 years without any blemish on his record.

Taking a step back from the letter from Mr. Carey referenced by me and in respect of the funding from the Department of Health in 2004, I wish to make it clear that I am not being political about this. I just want to inquire. There was a letter from the Minister at the time referring to the request for funding and stating that he was pleased to inform that the initiative was continuing. Was it a political decision? Did it go as far as the Minister?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I can only relay to the Deputy what I have seen in the files. At that time, the Government of the day sought to reform the health system, the HSE was being established and there was a need to give reassurance to all of the players in the industrial arena that change would be managed effectively and in partnership. It is manifestly clear that this was the intent of the Government of the day.

I was in the health system at that time and left the health boards at the end of December. I got a better opportunity to develop my career elsewhere but I knew a major reform programme was under way. The HSE was established on 1 January 2005 and has been with us today. I can assure the Deputy that based on the files, everybody was operating on the basis of Government policy. I have already made it clear in my statement. It was policy coming from the highest levels of Government. This was not being dealt with at HSE level. It is very clear from the files that the whole partnership agenda and the reform of the health service at that time, including the establishment of the HSE, had been ongoing for a number of years but was the explicit policy of the Government at the time. It was explicit Government policy to collaborate with the unions and staff associations in the context of the changes the Government wished to put in place.

I accept that. I should put on the record that an enormous amount of good work was done in terms of upskilling and training people and getting a different approach. I am not criticising that.

Let us stick with the catastrophic breakdown in corporate governance. A sum of €250,000 was sanctioned every year. Whose job was it to make sure there was a proper audit and that this money was properly spent?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I understand that from the period prior to 1 January 2005, the responsibility would have been with the then Secretary General of the Department of Health and the chief executive of the Midlands Health Board because the moneys from 1998 up to 2004 were effectively channelled through the Midlands Health Board and the Office for Health Management. After that date, it became the responsibility of the chief executive officer of the HSE.

Obviously, the Secretary General would not have been working on their own and the chief executive officer of the HSE would not have been the person who was actually dealing with it. Has anybody been sanctioned, been subject to a disciplinary hearing or held to account for this complete lapse in regulation and governance?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I can only deal with the period prior to 1 January 2005. From examining the files, I could find no basis for taking any sanction against any official of the Department of Health or the health boards at that time. I cannot find any evidence suggesting that sanctions should be imposed. What I can say is that the system of allocating money, as Mr. O'Brien has said, left much to be desired. This is something from which we need to learn. As the Deputy is aware, the Minister plans to bring the Vote back into the Department of Health from 1 January 2014. Long before I became Secretary General, it was my view that it would have been preferable if the Vote stayed with the Department of Health in 2004. We would certainly have had more continuity. However, that was a political decision that was taken at the time. The Government has now decided to bring the Vote back again from 1 January 2014, subject to legislation being passed by the Oireachtas.

Dr. McLoughlin says he cannot find evidence that anybody is involved in wrongdoing. Surely the fact that we are here today to investigate this SIPTU account is evidence that someone did something wrong.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

It would be better to ask Mr. Tony O'Brien to deal with the specifics of that matter. From my perspective as Secretary General of the Department of Health, my predecessor investigated ten trips and he and I are satisfied that the expenditure was reasonable and we stand over the trips. People were invited on these trips and they brought benefits. I am happy to leave the discussion of the wider dimension to Mr. Tony O'Brien.

Mr. Tony O'Brien is dealing with the issue of money continuing to go to the fund and the strange occurrence in the partnership forum whereby little distinction was made between the fund and the forum. The same person controlled both. Surely someone in the HSE had the responsibility of ensuring that did not happen. Has anybody in the HSE been sanctioned, disciplined or held to account for the failures?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I will answer Deputy Nolan's question on travel before addressing his other questions. My predecessor commissioned Turlough O'Sullivan to investigate all foreign travel undertaken by HSE staff and paid for out of the SIPTU levy fund. Twelve such staff members were identified. Mr. O'Sullivan conducted face-to-face interviews with 11 of the staff but was unable to interview the 12th, a retired official. He concluded from the evidence provided to him that the study visits seem to have been comprehensive and worthwhile. To deal with the issue of benefits and conflicts of interest, and to be fair to the individuals involved in the trips in question, the view is that they were worthwhile.

When the funding mechanism transferred into the HSE it effectively turned into what I would describe in common parlance as a vacuum. In my opinion the HSE was not ready to be created on the day it was established, particularly with regard to the transmission of funds to voluntary bodies and other grant receivers, because it did not yet have in place an agreement environment or service level arrangements that were fit for purpose. That is a general point.

With regard to the issue of discipline, a particular individual named earlier today - in light of the general injunction I will not name him now - who had a central role in this matter could and should have acted differently. This individual retired at about the time the internal audit investigation commenced and, therefore, before the evidence was available to us. The unfortunate reality is that the ability for an employer to exercise a sanction is lost at the point of retirement. However, the HSE referred the matter in its broadest sense to the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation. The HSE has not been in a position to take disciplinary action against any individual arising from those circumstances.

I am somewhat lost for words. One person retired from SIPTU and one person retired from the HSE. Approximately €1 million was squandered or we do not know what happened, and nobody was held responsible. We have held four hearings, umpteen reports have issued and the investigations are constant, yet there is nobody to blame. It is the perfect crime. If we accept this as being the end of the line, we will have no reputation as a committee. I will leave that to the Chair to consider.

I ask the Deputy to develop his point further by telling us where we should go.

We may need to speak to the individuals who went on the trips, sanctioned the funding or were involved in the partnership forum to get a sense of what they knew or thought about the matter. I accept that Mr. O'Brien and Mr. McLoughlin are telling us exactly what they believe is right to say and what is correct as they know it. They are constrained by employment contracts, all kinds of legal restrictions and their firmly held beliefs, but I do not think anybody looking at this matter from the outside would be satisfied with the explanation that it was a failure of governance or that nothing else went wrong. The only sanction to come of years of investigations and commentary is that two people took early retirement. Something has gone seriously wrong if that is the case. As the internal auditor, is Dr. Smith satisfied that all her questions have been answered?

Dr. Geraldine Smith

I welcome the report from the Comptroller and Auditor General as possibly the final piece of the jigsaw. There has been considerable discussion between HSE's internal audit unit and SIPTU. Essentially the internal audit unit has been trying to get to the bottom of the matter. The key issue arising from the last meeting was accessing the Grant Thornton report, the bank and credit card statements, details of the people who travelled and any other available correspondence so that we could compile a comprehensive account for the committee. We had bits and pieces but these were the missing elements. Our investigation over the last four and a half years has been tough and tortuous, and we have exhausted all avenues. The report of the Comptroller and Auditor General goes a long way towards answering all our questions but perhaps the missing link is the Grant Thornton report. There is probably not a lot more in it but until it is published, questions will remain.

It was suggested at the last meeting that the audit unit had a bad relationship with SIPTU during the investigation. Can Dr. Smith comment on that?

Dr. Geraldine Smith

I do not believe there is a bad relationship between SIPTU and me. From my perspective, when I went to audit this matter, there were no records. As Mr. O'Brien noted, the manager of the SKILL programme office retired just as we began the audit. Normally in the course of an audit, a manager would be available to answer our questions and provide documentation. We had nobody to answer our questions and the documentation was very sparse. We were aware of references in the SKILL programme records and while the travel costs were not set out in terms of air fares and hotels, there were references to the fact that travel had taken place.

We contacted Mr. Merrigan in SIPTU and he was co-operating with us but, as Mr. O'Flynn stated, he had an accident. That was the point at which I contacted SIPTU, which was shocked that the account had existed without its knowledge. Essentially, my correspondence with SIPTU consisted of questions. The HSE's perspective is that it involved an individual operating in his capacity as senior SIPTU official. All correspondence was from his office in Liberty Hall, on SIPTU headed paper and signed in his capacity as national industrial secretary. Cheques from the office for health management, the SKILL programme, etc. were made out to the SIPTU national health and local authority levy fund. From my perspective, it was a SIPTU account. SIPTU has confirmed that it was unauthorised, which nobody could have anticipated.

Following on from that, the HSE gave SIPTU every piece of documentation we came across. I emphasise that the documentation was sparse. We checked everywhere for the documentation. When we got it we handed it over. I arranged for copies of cheques to be provided to SIPTU to show they were made out to the national health and local authority levy fund. Mr. Merrigan provided me with two lever arch boxes of documents, which I also provided to SIPTU. I understand SIPTU has its own view of the matter.

Two issues arise that are particularly contentious. The first is that all this information was coming into the media and SIPTU was being hammered in the public mind. After listening to SIPTU's representatives this morning and reading the report, it appears it had nothing to do with the operation of this account. The representatives stated that they asked for a copy of the HSE's internal audit report but Dr. Smith refused to give it to them. They were therefore unable to fight the allegations and were being pummelled by the press without being in a position to fight back.

Second, there was an issue with these two payments of €190,000 which SIPTU says it kept assuring the HSE it had not received, and yet the HSE kept pressing SIPTU for it and insisting it was there. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report found that SIPTU was correct and those two payments did not go to SIPTU.

Dr. Geraldine Smith

Regarding the report, my last correspondence was seeking information from SIPTU. This correspondence went on from approximately September 2009 to November 2009. The report issued in June 2010 and during that time it had been dealing with Mr. Merrigan and his accountant, Mahon and Company. The report is an internal audit report and was presented to the HSE internal management. It included all the correspondence and deliberations with SIPTU, so my relationship is with HSE senior management and the board. At that stage the report was probably released to them but it would not have come through the normal processes. We would have presented it to our management team and the board.

It is true that much information was going out to the press at the time.

Dr. Geraldine Smith

That certainly did not come from the HSE internal audit. Like most internal auditors we like to work under the radar. People do not normally know there is an internal audit taking place but this was a unique situation where there was an unauthorised account. From the time I approached SIPTU and it became known that this was unauthorised, word got around. Ireland and Dublin are small places. I can categorically assure the committee that nothing came from the HSE internal audit on that matter.

I was not suggesting that. Could Dr. Smith confirm a figure from appendix 7 of a document I have from the last time she was before the committee? It is receipts and payments compiled by the HSE internal audit using various sources of information. The amount of money refunded to the account for spouse flights was €139,896.

Dr. Geraldine Smith

Yes. A caveat is that this document was an attempt to pull together all the different sources of information available. Information was coming from everywhere. That €139,896 came from information we found out through the circularisation I did of the various people who might have travelled. They came back and said they and their spouses had travelled and how much they had paid. In blue in the document are the amounts identified in the SIPTU report. From the information I had available, €139,896 was refunded for spouses' flights.

Was this done before or after the trips took place?

Dr. Geraldine Smith

I do not know. From my interviews with various people some of them said spouses had been brought and they had repaid immediately before the trip happened. In other cases I do not have that information.

In 2009 and 2010, much money began to go back into the account, an average of €6,000 or €7,000 per year until this hit the media and suddenly we had €90,000 in refunds to the account. We are still to take the view that people did not think they had done anything wrong even though there was this sudden refund of money that people suddenly realised they may have owed to the fund after it became public knowledge.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

There is no evidence to support the suggestion here this morning that in some way the HSE engaged in an information campaign against SIPTU. If SIPTU has any evidence it should bring it to me and I will take action on it. It is unfortunate that this may be an attempt to deflect from the fact that SIPTU staff must have been aware of the existence of the levy fund. Of the €422,000 in grants paid from the levy fund account to trade unions from 2002 to 2010, approximately €68,000 was paid to SIPTU nationally and some of its branches on cheques marked SIPTU levy fund account. While it is clear that there is some confusion around that matter it is wrong to suggest SIPTU was placed in a difficult position by some mythical smear campaign initiated by the HSE, since none existed.

Does the Comptroller and Auditor General concur with Mr. O'Brien's view that SIPTU must have been aware of the existence of the account?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

No, we pointed out in the report that these cheques had been made out but there is no structural or organisational evidence, no minutes, letters or any documentation of that kind, that SIPTU was aware of it. Mr. O'Flynn this morning gave an explanation of what were relatively small sums and that, while there is an understanding of the existence of a levy fund account, it had a particular meaning. His explanation was presented this morning. I cannot-----

His bona fides when he said that were largely accepted by everybody on the committee.

Mr. O'Flynn used the word "leak" or it was suggested that it was spin coming from the HSE, and that SIPTU had very little time to react to it because they had no information and it was relentless and continuous. How did Mr. O'Brien determine that there were no leaks or spin? There was a very clear message this morning about Mr. O'Flynn's view on this. How did he establish his position? As he makes his response could he repeat the figure of the numbers of cheques going around?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Of the €422,000 in grants paid from the levy fund account to trade unions from 2002 to 2010, approximately €68,000 was paid to SIPTU nationally and to some of its branches. That figure is from the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. Since I heard those remarks about spin and leaks I have spoken to the officials with responsibility for HSE communications and, as the committee has heard from Dr. Smith, from those who had the detailed knowledge of the internal audit report. They have assured me that no leaks emanated from the HSE. My central point was that it is a very serious allegation to make and if the person who made it has any evidence to support that, I would like to see it and I will be prepared to take action on it if it exists.

I raise it because alongside that comment Mr. O'Flynn makes a reference to the reputation damage to the union caused by that spin and its inability to respond because of the lack of information. It is very important for the HSE and the Department - presumably both played a role in this - to clarify the matter with Mr. O'Flynn. That should be done for the sake of clarity. Both of those very serious statements were made today at this meeting.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

No refunds were made by any officials of the Department of Health in respect of the comments that were made about people refunding moneys. I have examined all the records regarding the Department officials - five serving and one retired - and I am satisfied everything was in order. I also stand over the good name and reputation of all of those Department officials who were invited on those trips. They are men of the highest integrity.

I thank Dr. McLoughlin and Mr. O'Brien for being here. While I accept the honesty of their statements to this committee, it is regrettable, and perhaps unavoidable because they were not in situ, that they are not able to answer the questions and get down to the nitty gritty as this committee and the Irish public want. To concur with Deputy Nolan, I cannot accept, nor can people watching these proceedings, that everything was one giant coincidence.

I acknowledge that Mr. O'Brien is limited in what he can say, but the more questions we ask, the more confusing it gets. What has become apparent is that a fund was established with good motives and significant good work was done in training and upskilling, but then public money was put to one side and used for wining and dining, which we can see from credit card bills, and extensive travel. Let us park the issue of whether rules were broken. Mr. O'Brien has clearly said they were not and I accept that officials in the HSE and the Department's travel section did not do so. However, now that both Mr. O'Brien and Dr. McLoughin are in situ, surely if there was this volume of travel today, they would find it peculiar and ask questions if 19 public officials were taking extensive foreign study trips. Will he give an assurance that this carry-on is not commonplace? With the benefit of hindsight, surely he finds this level of travel unacceptable. We must have the best level of study of public servants in Europe if people are constantly going on study trips, even those who are retired.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

In terms of the current control processes, no national director of the HSE can avail of overseas travel without my express personal authorisation. Those who report to them require their express authorisation and all official travel arrangements are consolidated through a single travel bookings process. There is tight control.

Are they different from the controls in place previously? Are they new controls?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

They are, but they were put in place largely in response to what had been found, although some improvements had been made. Even if we were not living in a changed financial and funding context, it is inconceivable that I would authorise this scale of travel with this type of pattern and, clearly, the coincidences involving St. Patrick's Day and so on would have been noted in advance of giving authorisation. There is some overseas travel, both for patients and staff, where it is appropriate and necessary. It is clear, though, looking back at it from this remove that it was a time when it was thought reasonable for large numbers of persons to travel regularly to foreign destinations. That is no longer the environment. The circumstances in which the control environment was allowed to continue cannot apply again. The findings of the various reports have been fully implemented.

On the issue of motivation, it is not necessarily right to suggest there was a grand conspiracy theory, but the poor governance environment in the making of grants in that period created the potential for abuse and the creation of spurious bank accounts and so on in a way that does not apply now. It is clear as one looks back on it - it is grotesque in some respects - that some of the elements were not untypical of the time, but their coming together in the way they did created the problem we are discussing.

SIPTU officials will testify that I am not known to be their defender generally. I have had my own public disagreements with the union, but I found the evidence given by its general secretary to be honest. I do not believe SIPTU as a corporate entity was aware of this. It was misused as a vehicle for the misspending of public money by senior officials who have serious questions to answer and it is regrettable that they will not do so before the committee.

I refer to the HSE and departmental officials who travelled. If I was in either organisation at the time and wanted to go on one of the trips to New York, Australia, Los Angeles, Boston, Georgia, what was the process involved? Who decided who travelled? The reason Deputy Derek Nolan and I are lost for words at this stage is that the answer given is that it was the system and that it was systemic failure. Presumably, officials sanctioned travel and senior officials in both organisations felt at the time that it was appropriate. I can name them, but I do not wish to. Who decided that the people concerned should travel?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

In respect of the Department, right now I personally approve the external travel of all members of the MAC and the relevant assistant secretaries are charged with signing off for people other than at the top level. I sign off for them and the relevant line manager signs off for the others. There has been a heavy restriction on foreign travel for some years. On top of this, the Department's internal auditors at my request regularly examine travel patterns at home and abroad to ensure everything is in accordance with the appropriate approval and governance system in place because we are concerned to ensure we get value for money. In respect of the six departmental officials, the senior officials in the Department at the time approved these six trips. That is clear from the file.

Were they Dr. McLoughlin's predecessors?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

It was either my predecessor or the relevant assistant secretary. There were different people involved, depending on their location, but for members of the MAC, the higher level people in the Department, it would have been done by a Secretary General. The bottom line is that study visits from assistant principal officer to assistant secretary level have to be approved at the highest level. I want to make it absolutely clear that there is no evidence of impropriety or maladministration in respect of the approval for the departmental officials.

There might not be, but I find it utterly unacceptable that at the time the Department felt it was appropriate to use hard earned taxpayers' money to continue to send people abroad on study trips. There is no point in answering a question or an accusation that is not being levelled. I am not accusing anybody in the Department or the HSE of maladministration, but I need to know, as does the committee, what was the culture and mindset, what was happening and who decided it was appropriate to constantly spend taxpayers' money on these study trips. Dr. McLoughlin has kindly read the itinerary of the study trips, but perhaps he might like to expand on the tangible benefits to the taxpayer.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I am quite clear that there were benefits accruing from the trips made by departmental officials. The reason I am being direct about this is I want to assure the Deputy and the committee that right now we have the strictest control of this type of travel. We have independent audit verification and I am satisfied that this could not happen again. Like Mr. O'Brien, a direct, honest reply to the simple question of whether I would have raised concerns is yes. I would probably have had some concerns raised and certainly would have had internal audit look at some of the issues raised. The Deputy must remember that of the 74 trips about which I was informed, six related to departmental officials. Many of the journeys made by officials relate to EU and other essential business related to public health and other issues and I need to keep the Deputy fully focused on the fact that it was a small number of trips and a small number of officials in the context of the Department. I reiterate that strict controls apply today in respect of foreign travel for departmental officials.

I am reassured about the current position by the comments of Dr. McLoughlin and Mr. O'Brien, but this is a retrospective committee. We are mandated to look backwards and examine the Comptroller and Auditor General's work. As an example, I refer to the trip to Georgia between 13 and 20 March 2008. I am dealing with abbreviations, but to the best of my understanding, there were six people on the trip, all of whom were public officials.

I think one was a Department of Finance representative and the rest were representatives of the HSE, the Department of Health or agencies. Can Dr. McLoughlin talk me through that trip? Does he have the details of it?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I have the detail of that in front of me.

I know Dr. McLoughlin read a good deal but I could not-----

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

Yes. I am quite happy to tell the Deputy about the details of that trip but, for the record, in respect of the Department of Finance official, the Department of Finance conducted an internal audit of the Department's involvement in the HSE SKILL project. It established that one of its officials participated in a number of overseas visits connected with SKILL and with other purposes. Costs for the majority of this foreign travel were not paid for by the Department and the official concerned confirmed to the auditors that flights and accommodation for such foreign trips had been paid by SIPTU on his behalf.

When Dr. McLoughlin says " paid by SIPTU", he means-----

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

This one.

-----paid from this crazy account.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

Yes. In relation to the trip to Savannah, Georgia, in March of 2008, the particular focus of that trip was on conflict and resolution management and they went to the Sullivan University in Kentucky. They also looked at union management engagement experiences in the context of change because at that point the United States had significant experience of similar situations that existed in Ireland. We must remember that in 2008 we were also facing further reforms of the health system and very significant reforms were planned and under way in areas such as cancer treatment services, acute hospital services and so on. I have the detail, which I am happy to give the Deputy, which clearly would establish that there were benefits. The people involved on the Department of Health side would have been people who would have proven track records in the area of conflict resolution, change management and dealing with some very difficult situations that occur from time to time in the health system. We have had a history of significant industrial relation disputes through that period and subsequent to those visits. I am satisfied that there would have been a significant value accruing to the country arising and benefiting from the experience in Savannah, Georgia.

What Dr. McLoughlin has established and told me, which is correct according to the record, is that people went away and had meetings. What I am yearning to know is if somebody on their return from the trip to Savannah, Georgia or wherever, having learned something, wrote a report which was acted on, and therefore there was a benefit to the trip.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

They would certainly have reported back to the highest levels in the Department of Health about the benefits of the trips and they would have applied that experience subsequently in what was an extraordinarily difficult period for the health system. I am looking back from a retrospective scope, I was not around then-----

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

-----but the period from 2008 right up to the present date has been an extraordinarily difficult one in the health system because of the cutbacks that have had to be made and the reshaping of services that have had to be undertaken because of the economic challenges facing the country.

There is the issue of a retired health official going on that trip and on other trips. It brings lifelong learning to a new level when people are going on study trips when they are retired. I need to see the tangible benefit to the taxpayer of that person travelling at my cost.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

He would not have been retired at that stage; it is just now that he is retired. I cannot remember the exact dates.

That is incorrect. He was retired.

Dr. Geraldine Smith

Is the Deputy referring to the general manager of SKILL?

No, I am referring to Frank Ahern.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I can clarify that. In the years 2006 to 2008, a total of €11,900 was paid to a former Department official from the levy fund account. The official retired from the Department in March 2006, having worked on partnership-related issues until 2002. He had no involvement in the funding arrangements for the SKILL programme which was established in 2004. The consultancy services provided and the payments for same are a matter for the fund administrator and the individual concerned.

This is where it gets slightly confusing because the fund administrator is administering a fund which is made up of public funds, of which a significant proportion came from the health sector, from the public purse. That raises two questions. Dr. McLoughlin has answered the question as to why he was consultant but, staying with my first question, why did he travel on these trips when he was retired?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

That would be a matter for SIPTU but, for the purposes of clarity, I understand that reports on the trips have been submitted to the committee.

Absolutely. I do not mean to be pedantic, but the witnesses have to stop saying that this would be a matter for SIPTU, rather it would be a matter for the fund administrator or for the people administering the fund because the Comptroller and Auditor General has identified that, to the best of his knowledge, that there is no evidence to suggest that SIPTU had any-----

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I unreservedly accept that.

A retired health official was going on foreign trips with other health officials and HSE officials, paid for out of this fund, a large chunk of which was made up of public health funding. Did any of the officials at any stage, anecdotally or from an audit point of view, think it was a little odd that they were all going off on a trip to Georgia, paid for by the taxpayer, and that a retired official who did not work for them any more was going with them? Did they not question why he was going on it? We had a similar conversation with the secretary general of SIPTU about a different example. It seems odd that this man who was retired from the health service was continuing to go on foreign trips with people from the health service and nobody said that this was a bit peculiar.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I can only answer if I was dealing with it today - it would not happen.

Okay. I have no issue with either Dr. McLoughlin's answers or Mr. O'Brien's answers but the issue is that they are not in a position, through no fault of theirs, to answer some of the questions because they were not in situ, but that is the frustrating aspect of this. If we are to get to the bottom of this, having spent dozens of hours of time on it - the time of the Comptroller and Auditor General, Dr. Smith and others who have done significant work on this - and arrive at definitive conclusions and outcomes, there are people we need to hear from who have refused to come before the committee. We need to bear that in mind and establish what is the view of the committee on it.

I wish to ask the representatives of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for their conclusions of the Comptroller and Auditor General report, which I believe the Department has accepted in full. Is that correct?

Mr. Tom Heffernan

We have. The group which is a joint group, as referenced by the Comptroller and Auditor General, had its first meeting on the 14th of this month. It agreed its terms of reference which are essentially to review the control and accountability framework for the administering of grants funded by public bodies with particular reference to a number of elements which are the type of ones that are raised in the auditor's recommendations. The group is tasked with making recommendations for revised requirements and guidance by the end of September. The intention would be that following the group's report, amendments to the public financial procedures and additional guidance would issue to public bodies.

I thank Mr. Heffernan for that.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

If I may respond to that question, the Deputy is right to say that words like "governance" sound very grand. The reality of what was happening here was that a proportion of funding was put into a place where it was outside normal controls. Individuals and many of the officials that have been referred to would receive a phone call from the fund administrator offering them a trip. They would arrange to be away from their offices for the trip. They would turn up at the airport and the tickets would be there for them. Essentially, the failure was the capacity for a large amount of money to be taken outside of the normal control environment into an environment that appeared to be controlled because of the way the account was set up. I wish to clarify what I was indicating earlier was that I did not accept that there could have been nobody else in SIPTU, apart from the fund administrator, aware of this, but I was not questioning the corporate position of SIPTU, that it did not have control of the account. The problem is that the appearance would have been created that it was official and that it was some control environment. The important thing is that now the way in which any grant funds are processed precludes the possibility of them going off into this parallel universe.

That is a very fair submission.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I want to make it clear, for the purposes of clarity, that in respect of the officials named it is my understanding that their trips abroad were approved by the Secretary General of the Department.

I want to pick up on what Mr. O'Brien said about people getting a phone call. It makes sense that a phone call was made advising people of a trip, asking them if they would like to go on it and, if they did, the tickets would be left for them at the airport. That should have set off serious alarm bells for officials. They would have known that SIPTU was not paying for it. It was the SIPTU fund being funded by the HSE. Union members around the country are not paying contributions to send HSE officials on trips. There is also the matter of the retired official who went on these trips. That is reason I have pushed the point that this could not have been a coincidence.

A retired official went on study trips with colleagues for whom he used to work. He was sitting beside them on the plane. Did that not ring alarm bells? That is the kind of point I wish to make about what the hell was going on and that surely people must have known. The exchange has been frank and robust. I wish to put on record that I do not hold Mr. O’Brien or Dr. McLoughlin personally responsible for anything that has happened. I completely accept their bona fides and that this will not happen again but surely suspicions were raised that a lot more was going on than a failure of governance?

Dr. Geraldine Smith

An important issue is that any officials to whom I or others in the Department have spoken believed that Mr. Merrigan was acting as a SIPTU official. Funds were paid from the Office for Health Management, OHM, the securing knowledge intra lifelong learning, SKILL programme, the Health Service National Partnership Forum, HSNPF, and Local Authority National Partnership Advisory Group, LANPAG, to Mr. Merrigan in his capacity as a SIPTU official. When officials travelled and got a phone call to say there was a trip to Savannah and to turn up at the airport, they would have believed that it was being paid for by SIPTU from an account to which the money provided by the HSNPF, SKILL programme and other programmes had gone. People in SIPTU were surprised that this was an unofficial and unauthorised account. Nobody believed it was an unauthorised account. When people went on the trips they did not think it was the SIPTU members who were funding it. They would have known that SIPTU – I am not necessarily talking about Liberty Hall – as people understood it, was in control of an account into which State funds had gone for partnership, development and such matters, and that was part of the funding involved. That is the piece perhaps that is missing, that people did believe they were dealing with SIPTU as an organisation and that the money from the State was going into it and that it had control of the account.

I am not summing up, but having listened and learned from what I have read about the issue, I wish to comment. Witnesses can correct me if I am wrong. Today, what we heard at the committee was SIPTU, on the one hand, telling us it believed matters were arranged through the office of project management at the SKILL programme, an office within the HSE. SIPTU has said the HSE is spinning, leaking and not helping it to co-operate. The way I read it is that SIPTU is pushing the blame firmly towards the HSE or the Department. It is not SIPTU’s fault; it is the fault of the HSE. On the other hand, the HSE is saying the opposite. I am trying to analyse the situation. I am not pointing the finger. I am saying what I heard. The HSE is stoutly defending its position saying the process had SIPTU written all over it and it accepted the bona fides of the person concerned. Nobody within either structure at a senior level has said there was something odd about the situation. Nobody rang an alarm bell or checked with a line manager or someone else. In spite of all that has been said, there does not seem to have been any real analysis of those that arrive back from the study visits imparting a great piece of knowledge to those with whom they worked to improve the relationship and make the grand change happen that we were all talking about at the time. There was no accountability and much of the information that had to be found out was not discovered by the HSE, the Department or SIPTU, but by the investigations that were conducted and, ultimately, the investigation that was undertaken by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

We have a letter from Mr. Smith of which witnesses are probably not aware, which we will pass on. We would appreciate comments on it. Mr. Merrigan is retired and not willing or otherwise available to come forward. A €78,000 payment was made by the real SIPTU to Grant Thornton to view a report that the Comptroller and Auditor General, the country’s accounting officer, cannot even see. A large sum of taxpayers’ money is still under question. The Committee of Public Accounts commenced an investigation and we have got to this stage. It rests on the HSE, the Department of Health and SIPTU, in co-operation with the Comptroller and Auditor General and the members of the committee to bring the matter to a conclusion. People will read reports on the issue and they will not believe that €78,000 was paid for a sneaked look at the report. It does not work like that. There are questions to be answered. We cannot sign off on the matter today, which we would normally do, as both Mr. O’Brien and Dr. McLoughlin, know. We are to have a private meeting next week at which we will discuss other matters and take legal advice. In terms of the other witnesses which Deputy Nolan and Deputy Harris have mentioned as being of interest to the committee, we will just have to take it to that stage and ask where we go from here.

That is not to blame anyone for non-co-operation or for not putting the facts before us. Dr. Smith’s original contribution to the committee was a complete eye-opener in terms of how she approached the issue, delivered the message and how accurate and concise she was. It was refreshing to hear what she had to say at that time, even though it was bad news. That is a general assessment of what went on and where we are. Undoubtedly, we will have to find some way of closing off on the matter but we will not do that today.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

As Secretary General of the Department of Health I assure you, Chairman, that I will co-operate fully with the Comptroller and Auditor General. I will be very happy to co-operate with SIPTU. I would love to see the Grant Thornton report. I believe it should be seen by the Comptroller and Auditor General. I call on SIPTU to make it available. I have been in the office for only a year but I find it extraordinary that it is not-----

In fairness to SIPTU, it does not have the report. It got a look at it for €78,000.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I say that regardless of who has the report. I want to be helpful and to respond positively in order to find out what happened. I am indicating the full co-operation of my Department. In respect of the Grant Thornton report, whoever has it or has had sight of it, it would be very helpful if it were provided to the Comptroller and Auditor General. It would be helpful if all of the parties concerned made themselves available to the Committee of Public Accounts. That is my strong personal view. I will co-operate in every way I can as Secretary General.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

The only comment I would like to make about the remarks you have made, Chairman, is that the one thing I have not sought to do is come here today and say the HSE is right. My opening remark said that the failures of control and governance in the HSE in this respect are unprecedented and unacceptable. I do not seek to gloss over that in any way.

I did not say that. Let us not get off on the wrong foot. I did not say that about Mr. O’Brien.

Dr. Geraldine Smith

I wish to comment on four points. You referred, Chairman, to the general manager’s correspondence to the committee on his interaction with Turlough O’Sullivan. I have correspondence from our HR directorate to the general manager of SKILL about his interaction and it is important to put it on record. The general manager of SKILL refuted Mr. O’Sullivan’s assertion that he refused to meet him.

Essentially, HR in the Health Service Executive, HSE, sent a registered letter to the general manager on 13 July 2010 which was returned by An Post unopened. He did not accept delivery, neither did he attend the meeting with Mr. O'Sullivan. Further efforts were made by HR to contact the manager by telephone on four occasions. The national director who wrote this letter personally spoke to the general manager's wife who informed him that she would get the general manager to return the call, and he did not do so. The national director of HR called out to the former general manager's home to speak to him, without success. There were many attempts to engage with the general manager in relation to the Turlough O'Sullivan report. It is important that that be noted. I have a copy of that correspondence if the committee wants it.

I think we should have it. Dr. McLoughlin said that Dr. Smith had some information. I ask Dr. Smith to give whatever was promised or committed to the committee in regard to that correspondence.

Dr. Geraldine Smith

Yes. We have it here.

I think we have to make available to Dr. Smith the letter we got today, and she can let us have her views on that. We will meet in private session to deal with the remainder of this next Wednesday.

Regarding one other matter, has Revenue been notified of this situation or does it have an opinion on it? That might be a question for Dr. Smith considering that 27 cheques were paid to cash totalling €42,000. Obviously, in terms of cheques paid in cash, it is difficult for Revenue to track if there is a tax implication.

Dr. Geraldine Smith

That was an issue the Comptroller and Auditor General identified. I would not have personal knowledge of that.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

We corresponded with Revenue.

Have they come back to Mr. McCarthy?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

No, and I would not expect them to. We have provided them with information that was available to us. It is a matter for Revenue after that as to what they do with it.

In terms of the last meeting, are all the witnesses agreed that the €190,000, the two cheques-----

Dr. Geraldine Smith

That was one of the points I wanted to come to. Obviously, it is a significant issue and I appreciate where SIPTU are coming from on that. Again, chronology is so important throughout all of this because I have been investigating this for the past four and a half years. It is three years since we issued the original SIPTU report in June 2010, and throughout all of that there was no one bulk of records available. This has all been gathered through bits and pieces.

In relation to those two particular sums, the last day we were before the committee was December 2011. Before that we were engaged in a process of trying to pull together funding expenditure from all sources, including Committee of Public Accounts transcripts. That is where we came up with that document which the committee has. As part of that I went to the Department and asked them to check their records and give me a list of all payments it has authorised to be paid to SIPTU, whether through the Office for Health Management, OHM, the SKILL programme or whoever. That was around October 2011. The Department came back with a list. I went through that list comparing it against the various sources we had, including SIPTU's trustees report which they issued on 25 March 2011, and from that I identified that there were some sums, according to the Department, which were not in the SIPTU report or in any records I had been able to identify. We went to SIPTU and explained the situation, namely, that the Department had identified these amounts and asking them if they could confirm that they were not in the account of SIPTU or real SIPTU, as the Chairman refers to it, and if they could check with the financial advisers of the trustee to see if they were in the unofficial account. SIPTU came back and said it was not there. I went back to the Department again and told them that SIPTU had said it had no sight of it. I asked the Department to check its records again and give me any documentation it had on it. The Department came back with a few documents. This was all happening in a very short space of time between October and December 2011. They mainly centred around the £150,000 which was authorised in, I believe, July 2001, and €190,000, which was authorised in April 2002.

In relation to the £150,000 - July 2001 - there was a letter from the Department to, I believe, the general manager of the OHM, who was also the general manager latterly of SKILL, saying that the Department had approved £410,000, part of which was for the front line, and asking if he could arrange to make the payments to Mr. Matt Merrigan, SIPTU. We then see a letter from the general manager of OHM going back to the Department in August 2001 stating that he had made the arrangements to pay the said amounts to Mr. Matt Merrigan, SIPTU national industrial secretary, etc. On that basis, why would an official say he has paid it if he has not paid it? That was one part. Regarding the €190,000 in 2002, we have a letter from, I believe, the first Department official referred to, Mr. Frank Ahern, in 2002 saying that €190,000 was approved. I believe that was for the front line. I would have to check the exact documentation.

We went back to SIPTU and gave it all of that documentation. Any paper we had we gave to SIPTU and told it that was the basis on which we were wondering if it had seen it or if it knew where it was. SIPTU came back and said it was not there. SIPTU took issue with my last evidence to the committee saying I had not said this was unofficial, and the committee would have seen the correspondence where I wrote back to SIPTU stating that at least three times during my deliberations and evidence to the committee I had clearly identified that SIPTU had not been able to identify it.

To come to the point - where is it? After the meeting, a lot of further tortuous work went on. We had the OHM accounts and some bank statements. I went through all of that to see if there were bulk amounts or if there was a cheque for €190,000 or £150,000 because until that point in all the investigations, any amount provided by the Department had always been paid out in bulk. We had never seen it split. I think it was reasonable to assume, therefore, that if the Department was providing £150,000 or €190,000, we should have seen a cheque. We went through 3,000 OHM cheque stubs. There were 12 cheque books to which we did not have access. We went through all the statements, looked for these amounts but could not find them. We then decided to see if there were smaller amounts. I also identified that there were bank statements that we did not have and bank accounts that we did not know about. There is no issue about them, I hasten to add. We went to the bank and got the bank statements. Altogether, OHM had about nine accounts. We went through all of them and all the bank statements and identified what I would consider to be round sum amounts. There were bank drafts so I went to the bank and looked for those amounts, again thinking that perhaps it had been split up.

To cut a long story short, none of the cheques and bank drafts that came back were made out to SIPTU. I went back to the records again and asked more people to look for records. The bottom line is that of the £150,000 the Department approved in July 2001, £40,000 was paid by the OHM to the SIPTU national levy account in January of that year, £25,000 of that amount was paid in August 2001, and I believe the remaining £85,000 was retained by the OHM for its own purposes. What has added to the confusion, I corresponded with the general manager of the OHM, latterly SKILL, in January and he told me that if the cheque for £150,000 does not appear, it was probably never cashed but we now know there was no cheque for £150,000. I am satisfied that we have identified that.

Regarding the €190,000 for April 2002, we have been able to identify that €90,000 of that was paid by the OHM to SIPTU - €50,000 for a study visit and a €40,000 levy. That is the only information we have.

The remaining €100,000 actually was retained by the Office for Health Management, OHM, for its own purposes. We subsequently found a letter to that effect from the general manager back to the Department. Consequently, the mystery, per se, of those two amounts has been solved. However, it has taken a long and winding path to get there.

Those two separate amounts kept by the OHM were in its accounts. Are those two amounts accounted for?

Dr. Geraldine Smith

All I can say about that is while I am not defending the OHM or the health boards by any manner or means, the OHM was not a health board organisation. I think it was set up as a separate statutory organisation, which was audited by Deloitte & Touche. We managed to identify and get hold of most of the audited accounts from the OHM and nowhere therein will one will see €100,000. I went back to the people I knew were doing the accounts for the OHM and went to Deloitte and asked them whether they had any records they could give us. Unfortunately, however, with the passage of time and record retention policies, they had no records which would allow any further light to be thrown on the €100,000 or the €85,000.

Does Mr. McCarthy wish to make any further comment?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

On these sums, as Dr. Smith has explained we certainly have analysed that in great detail and we concur there is not a problem in respect of the figures. Obviously, there is a problem with regard to the quality of records, both with the elapse of time and regarding the manner in which information was kept. The Office of Health Management was not audited by my office but was audited privately, as Dr. Smith has indicated. As far as we have been able to establish, there are no extant audited accounts for 2002 or 2003 for the OHM. The records effectively have disappeared. Having said that, however, from the pieces of information we do have, I would be satisfied there is not a substantial amount of money that is in doubt as to whether it was used by a public body for an appropriate purpose. All the detail given by Dr. Smith is repeated in paragraph 2.5 and appendix C of my report.

Dr. Geraldine Smith

The accounts for the OHM were not qualified but had clear audit certificates.

If I may refer to one further item in respect of travel following the meeting in December 2001, the general manager of SKILL has provided me with further information in respect of travel. We have updated that travel schedule, which identifies the 74 reports. I have that available if the committee wishes to have the updated travel schedule.

Yes. Perhaps the clerk can get it.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

If I can make one or two other comments, I will go back to the idea of when the account was established. One point that is worth noting is that it was established in 1998 when a cheque issued from the OHM in the amount of £25,000. The bank account was established to receive that funding. However, it is interesting that it was established with a title called the health and local authority levy fund account. Clearly, it was anticipated at that stage that there might be funding from other sources or that it would be used for these purposes. I wish to draw attention to this point, that there obviously was some understanding of this being used in the short or long term and that there might be funding from multiple sources. I think what happened subsequently was that the amount of funding that was provided probably exceeded anyone's expectation and I do not really wish to speculate as to what were people's intentions. One thing which I think is significant and which may be relevant is the amount of money that accumulated in the fund over the years. A significant amount of the payments were made at year-end. Had the payments not been made at year-end, they would have had to have been surrendered by the funding bodies. Again, it probably is speculative to make this point but it may be that people felt they were doing good work in the partnership sphere and that they wanted to be able to continue that good work and to have the funding available. However, it probably would be better if individuals who were involved in that kind of decision-making were asked to give an account.

Did the Office of Health Management give either the inspection team or the Comptroller and Auditor General any explanation for the reason its records disappeared?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The Office of Health Management no longer exists and has not existed since 2005, I think, with the establishment of the HSE.

Does the HSE have any explanation as to the reason those documents disappeared?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

No; they are unaccounted for.

I am slightly alarmed by the word "disappeared". When did they disappear or when were they last seen? Did they exist?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

That is the nature of disappearance.

It is a handy thing to happen.

It is but one would imagine it is somewhat worrying. We will return to this point again.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The accounts for 2004 do exist and those for the preceding year, namely, the 2001 accounts exist. Consequently, I imagine it is inadvertent but who knows?

If I may make one point before we conclude, we have talked a lot about the foreign trips, which are an example of what went wrong. However, issues such as grants without oversight, money being given without knowing the purpose for which it is being used and money transferring into an account at the year-end to avoid the necessity of surrendering it back are just as big and important as are the foreign trips.

I am about to bring the meeting to a conclusion but in respect of figure 3.3, which is a list of additional foreign travel expenditure to the fund between 2002 and 2009, is that list included in what we have just been given here?

Dr. Geraldine Smith

Yes, absolutely. It is at the back, on page 17.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

If I could make one point in respect of figure 3.3 regarding a quite important distinction. What we have here are dates of payments, not necessarily dates of trips. Consequently, one cannot count the months as though they were each an individual trip. It may have been the case that flights were paid for in one month, perhaps hotels booked in another month and then there may have been payments during a trip. However, there is not sufficient detail to be categorical as to what were the individual trips in that situation.

Does the analysis that appears on page 3 of Dr. Smith's document in respect of trips by year pertain to actual trips?

Dr. Geraldine Smith

Yes, essentially I have taken the information from the Comptroller and Auditor General with that caveat.

They may not be-----

Dr. Geraldine Smith

Yes, something recorded for 2003 could have happened in 2004 but the point is that all the trips and locations are included here. Essentially, we have identified that there were 16 destinations between 1997 and 2009 from the SKILL fund and ten destinations between 2001 and 2009 from the Health Service National Partnership Forum, HSNPF.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

For the record, I wish to make a correction regarding the row pertaining to Orlando. There actually were three months in which there were payments, namely, April, October and December of 2007. That is something which we just picked up on in the preparation for the meeting today. We should have presented this as April, October and December 2007.

The witnesses are now just competing with each other for accuracy.

Is it agreed the committee will not dispose of this but will take it again in private session next Wednesday morning? Agreed. I again thank the witnesses for their attendance.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee adjourned at 3.40 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 26 June 2013.
Barr
Roinn