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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 16 Jan 2014

Business of Committee

Today we are meeting Mr. Brian Conlan, former CEO of the Central Remedial Clinic, and we will question representatives of St. Vincent's Healthcare Group in our second session. Representatives of the HSE will also attend our meetings. We must deal with correspondence received late yesterday evening from the HSE regarding the funding of the pension of a previous CEO of the CRC, Mr. Paul Kiely. We will deal with Mr. Conlan first and, if possible, have a short break at 1.30 p.m or earlier before commencing the second session. The various speakers for both sessions have been agreed.

I refer to the minutes of the meetings of 12 December, 17 December, 19 December and 20 December. Are the minutes of the meetings agreed? Agreed. Are there any matters arising from the minutes? I refer to the meeting of 20 December with NAMA. There is a clarification on the evidence given by the Comptroller and Auditor General in respect of EU approval for the loans transfer and the fact that while it is not finalised, it has been completed for the first two tranches of loans. The Comptroller and Auditor General's letter is item 3.8A.

The next items are correspondence from accounting officers or Ministers. Item 3A.1, correspondence dated 23 December 2013 from Professor Noel Whelan, chairman of St. Vincent’s Healthcare Group regarding public compliance. The correspondence is relevant to today’s meeting and will be noted and published. Item 3A.2 is correspondence dated 23 December 2013 from Mr. Adrian Neilan, CEO of Bord na gCon, regarding further information requested at the committee's meeting on 7 November 2013, which is to be noted and published. We will return to this correspondence when the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General on the acquisition of the Limerick stadium is before us. We should have it before us within a short period.

Item 3A.3 is correspondence dated 21 December 2013 from Dr. Olive Braiden, chair of the National Gallery of Ireland, regarding further information requested at the meeting on 21 November 2013. The correspondence will be noted and published. Items 3A.10 and 3A.11 also refer to this and a note analysing the information received from the National Gallery and the two Departments has been prepared and will be circulated for next week’s meeting. We can then decide whether the matter warrants further investigation. Item 3A.4 is correspondence dated 18 December 2013 from Mr. Paul Maloney, former CEO of Dublin Docklands Development Authority, regarding further information requested at the meeting of 12 December 2013. It will be noted and published.

Item 3A.5 is correspondence from Ms. Mary Day, CEO Mater Misericordiae University Hospital, and contains further information requested at PAC meeting of 19 November 2013. It will be noted and published. Item 3A.6 is correspondence dated 19 December 2013 from Mr. Billy Hawkes, Data Protection Commissioner, regarding a response to the letter from the clerk to the committee dated 18 December 2013 regarding information supplied by a whistleblower, which is to be noted and published.

Item 3A.7 is correspondence, dated 24 December 2013, from Mr. Martin Callinan, Commissioner for An Garda Síochána in response to letter from clerk to the committee dated 18 December 2013 on information supplied by a whistle blower. This is to be noted and published. I propose that we reply to the Commissioner reiterating the fact that our expert legal advice, which we are entitled to rely on, indicates the documentation was lawfully received from the whistle blower. This matter will be dealt with substantively next week when we examine Chapter 7, on the management of the fixed charge notice system. I suggest members get a briefing from the clerk and the parliamentary legal advisor next Wednesday on the outcome of the analysis undertaken on the material supplied. I suggest we meet at 6 p.m on Wednesday.

Item 3A.8 is correspondence dated 23 December 2013 from Mr. Seamus McCarthy, Comptroller and Auditor General, regarding the clarification I referred to earlier. It will be noted.

Item 3A.9 is correspondence, dated 23 December 2013, from Professor Niamh Brennan, former chairperson of the Dublin Docklands Development Authority, requesting a transcript of the meeting. That will be noted. Professor Brennan will come before us shortly. Item 3A.10 is correspondence, dated 7 January 2013, from Mr. Joe Hamill, Secretary General at the Department of the Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht regarding further information requested at the meeting on 21 November 2013. We have already dealt with this and will return to it next week. Item 3A.11 is correspondence dated 7 January 2013 from Dermot Quigley, Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, regarding further information requested at our meeting of 21 November 2013. This is to be noted; we have already dealt with this and will return to it next week.

Item 3A.12 is correspondence dated 20 December 2013 from Mr. Declan Reid, Department of Finance regarding further information requested at the meeting of 20 December 2013. This is to be noted and published. It relates to correspondence we have asked for between NAMA and the Department. We should express to the Department our worry and concern regarding documents that have gone missing. We should request an up-to-date report. They are important documents relevant to future inquiries, perhaps, and it is important we retrace the documents and that they are presented as required.

Item 3A.13 is correspondence dated 7 January 2014 from Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, Secretary General at the Department of Education and Skills, regarding issues raised at meeting of 27 November 2013 about the award of contracts for school transport services. This is to be noted and published. Item 3A.14 is correspondence received on 10 January 2014 from Mr. John Crawley, financial advisor of the Dublin Docklands Development Authority, regarding further information requested at the meeting of 19 December 2013. This is to be noted; we will return to the issue at our meeting on 6 February 2014.

Item 3A.15 is correspondence dated 14 January 2014 from Mr. Tony O’Brien, HSE director general, regarding a letter to me, as Chairman, about further information requested at the meeting of 11 November 2013. This is to be noted and published and is relevant to today’s meeting as it relates to the Central Remedial Clinic. Item 3A.16 is correspondence dated 14 January 2014 from Mr. Ray Mitchell, HSE, regarding further information requested at the meeting of 11 December 2013. It is to be noted and published and is relevant to today’s meeting. Item 3A.17 is correspondence dated 15 January 2014 from Mr. Ray Mitchell, HSE, regarding further information requested at the meeting of 19 December 2013. This is to be noted and published and is relevant to today’s meeting.

No. 3B.1 is correspondence dated 17 December 2013 from Mr. John Moran, Secretary General of the Department of Finance, regarding consultancy fees paid to AIB, to be noted and published. No. 3B.2 is correspondence dated 6 January 2014 from Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin, Secretary General of the Department of Health, regarding the hepatitis C tribunal, to be noted and a copy to be forwarded to Mr. Edward Stevenson. No. 3B.3 is correspondence dated 8 January 2014 from Mr. Neil Pakey, CEO of Shannon Development, regarding disposal of property at Hospital enterprise centre, County Limerick, to be noted and copy forwarded to Mr. Harry Lawlor. No. 3B.4 is correspondence dated 8 January 2014 from Ms Clare McGrath, chairperson of the OPW, regarding Mr. Eugene Mitchell, County Galway, to be noted and a copy forwarded to Mr. Mitchell. 3B.5 is correspondence dated 10 January from Mr. Ray Mitchell of the HSE, a reply to correspondence from Mr. Tom Keary, to be noted and forwarded to Mr. Keary.

No. 3C is documents relating to today's meeting. No. 3C.1 is correspondence from Mr. Brian Conlan, former CEO of the CRC, which is his opening statement, to be noted and published. No. 3C.2 is correspondence dated 14 January from Professor Noel Whelan, chairman of St. Vincent's Healthcare Group Limited, which is his opening statement.

No. 4 is reports, statements and accounts received since our meeting on 19 December 2013. They are listed from 4.1 to 4.20. If there are any issues arising from these reports, members might raise them with the clerk and we can discuss them at a future meeting. A number of reports and accounts have been submitted, so members should note the content of those.

Our work programme is now on the screen. A number of meetings have been scheduled up to the Easter break. This programme is subject to change as we need to consider the examination of further section 38 bodies and also issues relating to the Dublin Docklands Development Authority.

Do members have any matters to raise under any other business?

What is the situation in regard to Mr. Merrigan and Mr. Kelly appearing before the committee?

Is that in regard to SIPTU and the HSE fund?

Clerk to the Committee

We are finalising a legal document in that regard which must go to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. We are waiting for guidelines from the Committee on Procedure and Privileges but a legal application must go in and it must be legally proofed. It is more complex than we thought originally but it will be dealt with. We will have it finalised this week. I will brief the Chairman. We are in the hands of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges in terms of whether it gives us compellability powers. It is not as straightforward as we had anticipated originally. It is fairly complex. We need to dot our i's and cross our t's.

This is key in regard to the whole compellability issue and it is important it is brought across the line.

Clerk to the Committee

Yes.

I informed members previously that we had actually sent the letter but I suppose that was not the case because, on inquiry, we found that a legal case has to be made by the Committee of Public Accounts to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges in order for this to be approved under the legislation. That submission must be robust in terms of its legal position and what we intend to do. The draft letter is being double checked and it will go to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. It is up to it to give us or not to give us permission. It is a test in terms of the process for this committee and it is one I hope will be expedited in the context of the request and then the response.

What is the anticipated timeline for completion of the guidelines?

Clerk to the Committee

I had assumed they would be ready. I think they were being legally proofed also by a senior counsel. I will get a note on that for the committee next week.

Much of this is arising from the new legislation. As Deputy Dowds said, it is critical in terms of the compellability issue. Therefore, we must be very clear of our legal position in that regard because there are implications if it is not successful.

It would be helpful to the committee if we had an indication of the timeline.

Clerk to the Committee

I will get that for the committee next week.

On any other business, in regard to the HSE, a question was asked about the group hospitals in the west at which it is looking.

Clerk to the Committee

That was one of the pieces of correspondence which came in very late yesterday evening.

It was in regard to the costs and so on.

Clerk to the Committee

Yes, that is right. We have that answer.

The second matter was to get some information in regard to the section 39 reports. We have not got anything back on that yet. What is the status of that?

Clerk to the Committee

The HSE has already written to the section 39 bodies and has given us a state of play on that. They are in a different league because they are not public servants. The HSE has told us it has written to the section 39 bodies asking them to come back to it in regard to compliance.

Can we check out the position of the Committee on Public Accounts in regard to section 39 bodies, if we intend having a hearing on any one of them?

Clerk to the Committee

Okay.

One of the issues raised between the Department of Health and the HSE in regard to the section 38s was contained in the audit report where evidence was given that there had been some form of informal understanding vis-à-vis these top-ups. The Chairman will remember I raised it at the last session. I understood that those who carried out the audit would be in communication with the Department of Health to give the names of those organisations where that suggestion was made and that the Department would go back and investigate the matter further. I raise it because I do not see it in any of the correspondence from the HSE and I do not believe we have received anything from the Department of Health to indicate that matter is in hand and is being addressed.

Perhaps we can ask the HSE to check on that and let us know the status.

I thank the Chairman.

Can we agree our agenda for Thursday, 23 January? The committee will meet the Accounting Officer of the Garda Síochána for examination of the 2012 annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, chapter 7 - management of the fixed charge notice system. Is that agreed? Agreed. When we meet next week, one of the issues we will have to consider at our 6 p.m. meeting is the request from the whistleblower to come before the Committee on Public Accounts. We need to make a decision on that. We can do that on Wednesday.

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