COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 3 Mar 2022

Business of Committee

Chairman

The public business before us includes the minutes; accounts and financial statements; correspondence; the work programme; and any other business.

The first item of business is the minutes of our meeting of 24 February, which have been circulated to members. Does any member wish to raise matters in respect of the minutes? No. Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual, they will be published on the committee's web page.

Ten sets of financial statements and accounts were laid before the Houses between 21 and 25 February 2022. I will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to address these before opening them to the floor.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Of accounts and statements presented since last week, No. 1 is from Dundalk Institute of Technology for the academic year of 2019-20. It has a clear audit opinion. The second set is from Dublin City University-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Why is that more than a year ago?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

These are quite late. The institutes of technology end of year is 31 August. The audit was only completed on 20 December 2021, which was 15 months after the end of the period of account. The audit for Dublin City University was certified on 16 December for the period ending September 2020. These are quite late being done. In the case of Dublin City University, it has a clear audit opinion, but I draw attention to the recognition of a deferred pension funding asset and that is standard procedure for universities.

No. 3 is from the Royal Irish Academy of Music for 2020, for which there is a clear audit opinion. No. 4 is from Grangegorman Development Agency for 2020, for which there is a clear audit opinion. No. 5 is the Nursing and Midwifery Board of Ireland for 2020. It has a qualified audit opinion on a specific point. The accounts give a true and fair view except that they account for the costs of retirement benefit entitlements of staff only as they become payable, and that is standard procedure for many health bodies at the direction of the Minister. No. 6 is from the Judicial Council. This is the first set of financial statements for this new body. The period of account is 17 December 2019 to 31 December 2020. That has a clear audit opinion.

Nos. 7 to 9, inclusive, are from subsidiaries of Rásaíocht Con Éireann. The first is from Greyhound Racing Operations Ireland Limited for 2020, for which there was a clear audit opinion. No. 8 is from Abergrove Limited for 2020, for which there is a clear audit opinion. No. 9 is from Shelbourne Greyhound Stadium Limited for 2020, for which there is a clear audit opinion.

The final set is from the Residential Tenancies Board for 2020. The Members will recall that there was an omission from the accounts that were previously submitted. As the board said it would do last week, it has immediately resubmitted.

Chairman

Does any member wish to come in on that?

Deputy Catherine Murphy took the Chair.

Vice Chairman

I wish to raise one item about the greyhound stadium. Mr. McCarthy obviously audits that.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Shelbourne?

Vice Chairman

Yes. Is the stadium owned by the entity that is audited?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes. It is owned by this company and the company is a 100% subsidiary of Rásaíocht Con Éireann. The other Rásaíocht Con Éireann stadiums are accounted for under item No. 7, Greyhound Racing Operations Ireland Limited. Shelbourne is kept separate.

Vice Chairman

It was in the news the weekend before last.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I actually missed that.

Vice Chairman

It was about development.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

That may be one of the reasons it has been kept separate. There were subsidiaries for each stadium but they were rationalised a number of years ago. The Shelbourne stadium is a different economic proposition to the others.

Vice Chairman

I think there were only two stadia that were able to hold their own in terms of covering their costs, and the Shelbourne stadium was one of those. Do we agree to note the accounts? Is that agreed? Agreed. As usual, the listing of accounts and financial statements will be published as part of the minutes.

Moving to correspondence, as previously agreed, items that were not flagged for discussion for this meeting will continue to be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated, and decisions taken by the committee in relation to correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee’s meetings and published on the committee’s web page. The first category of correspondence under which members have flagged items for discussion is B, correspondence from Accounting Officers and-or Ministers and follow-up to Committee of Public Accounts meetings.

No. 1079 PAC33 is correspondence from the Government accounting unit, Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, dated 16 February 2022. It encloses the minute of the Minister in relation to the committee’s reports on our examination of the 2019 appropriation accounts of the Department of Social Protection and the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government. These are important items of correspondence as they are the formal responses to the committee’s recommendations. At our meeting last week, we agreed to note and publish this item and to hold it over for further consideration today. It has been flagged for discussion by Deputy Carthy.

This correspondence relates to the independent building standards regulator about which we made a recommendation. Our recommendation related to the impact the pyrite remediation scheme and defective concrete blocks grant scheme would have on the Exchequer. On page 3 of the response, it states, "However, it should be noted that any decision regarding the establishment of an independent building standards regulator will be a matter for Government and is likely to require primary legislation". I believe we should be getting something more concrete - pardon the pun - than that. It is either does or it does not. What would be the timeline for that? We could have done with a building standards regulator 50 year ago, never mind in recent times. One can see the significant exposure that exists by not dealing with those kinds of issues and preventing them from occurring. It becomes financially very expensive. This is very important and we should follow up on it.

Page 4 states, "As part of the Building Control Reform Agenda the National Building Control Management Project was created to provide oversight". I am not entirely sure what the purpose of that role is. Is it responsible for the regulation of building and construction products? Can we establish what the full remit of that project is? This may be a matter we can come back to. The first page states, "current expenditure on HAP and RAS is demand led". That may well be an matter we will come back to in the context of budgets.

If we are going to have a sizeable influx of people from Ukraine, I imagine those budgets will need some additional funds.

Deputy Brian Stanley resumed the Chair.

Chairman

Next is No. 1084 B from Ms Clíodhna Guy, interim CEO, Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board, IHRB, dated 17 February 2022 providing information requested by the committee regarding the installation of CCTV cameras at 25 racecourses. It states that contracts have been issued to the successful tenderer and that installation will now begin. It is proposed to note and publish this item. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Munster has flagged this matter for comment.

Deputy Imelda Munster

The correspondence we have received from the IHRB differs greatly from the previous correspondence we got from the same body in November 2021. In that communication, it was stated that the installation of CCTV would have been completed at all the racecourses prior to the commencement of the 2022 season. The correspondence we have received now, however, states that an estimated date cannot be given to the committee. It is ridiculous.

Can we write to the IHRB again and highlight that in prior correspondence it was able specify the start of this year, January 2022, as the date for commencement, while this most recent letter from it states that it is now not possible to estimate a date or timeframe. I do not know what to make of this. For some reason, the IHRB does not seem to be enthusiastic to roll out this CCTV system as fast as possible. That is a concern. Perhaps we could send the organisation copies of these two items of correspondence. I refer to the one from November that stated this installation would be complete by the start of this year's season and this most recent communication stating a timeframe cannot now be given for this to be done.

Chairman

I thank Deputy Munster for that suggestion. I have noted that no timeline was provided. Could I also suggest that we ask, because we must clarify this aspect as well, whether this installation of CCTV involves all 25 racecourses. My understanding is that it is installed at two racecourses now. It was confirmed that one was completed, and another was under way some time back. As far as I am aware, then, that leaves the remainder to be done. If we are asking for a timeline in this regard and sending a copy of the previous correspondence we received in November, we should also clarify the number of racecourses involved and whether all 25 racecourses will have CCTV installed.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Yes, that is fine.

Chairman

Are members happy enough with that? Okay.

Next is No. 1092B from Mr. John McKeon, Secretary General, Department of Social Protection, dated 21 February 2022 providing information requested by the committee regarding payments under the temporary wage subsidy scheme, TWSS, and the employment wage subsidy scheme, EWSS. The Secretary General states that the legislation provides that while the Department funds the schemes, the Office of the Revenue Commissioners administers it. As the Minister for Finance brought forward the legislation, any policy decisions in relation to it are a matter for the Minister and the board of the Revenue Commissioners.

We have also received related correspondence from the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, R1096 PAC33, and from the Department of Finance, R1105 PAC33. Revenue states that companies making distributions, including but not exclusive to dividends to shareholders, have obligations to deduct and return dividend withholding tax, DWT. Regarding analysis, Revenue states that DWT returns filed by companies claiming EWSS, in respect of distributions made in 2021, showed that 641 employers filed DWT returns, out of a total of 51,900 who received EWSS payments.

The Department of Finance has provided a detailed response outlining some of the difficulties in legislating to link and prevent the payment of any dividends to shareholders that might be based on State supports. For example, a dividend could be deferred until the company is no longer in receipt of such supports. The Department also refers to an interdepartmental review of Covid-19 emergency income supports, and I would propose that we request a copy of the findings of that review.

I propose to note and publish this item, request a copy of that review, and also to forward copies of the three items of correspondence to Deputy Nash, who raised this matter with the committee. Is that agreed? Agreed.

These items are flagged for discussion by Deputy Imelda Munster, but she is not with us. The concern was about where State money being paid out in emergency supports and subsidies would wind up. We will do what I have just set out. We will also forward a copy of the correspondence to Deputy Nash.

The next item is-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Are there any issues with this review? I presume there is no GDPR-related issue in respect of the Revenue and the Department of Social Protection communicating on this matter and that there is alignment there.

Chairman

They are able to correspond. There is no problem there. I call Mr. McCarthy.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The Department of Social Protection is providing the funding and the lines of communication are open between the two bodies.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Right.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

They are able to share information in this regard.

Chairman

Personal public service numbers, PPSNs, are the key to everyone's file and both organisations have access to the information.

The next item is No. 1095B from Mr. Ken Spratt, Secretary General, Department of Transport, dated 21 February 2022 providing information requested by the committee regarding electric vehicles and the small public service vehicle, SPSV, advisory committee of the National Transport Authority, NTA.

It is proposed to note and publish this item, which will also be relevant to our engagement with the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I flagged this correspondence for discussion. We must question a few points with the Department. The letter we received stated that Ireland had set an ambitious target to have 945,000 EVs on our roads by 2030. I suggest that we need to reply and ask how that figure was arrived at. Judging by the number of EVs on the road now, which is a fraction of that target figure, we are looking at a requirement to add well over 100,000 EVs every year until 2030, but the total number of new cars sold each year hardly reaches that figure. Considering that EVs are also much more expensive, how realistic is that target of having 945,000 EVs on our roads by 2030? I suggest we should raise this aspect with the Secretary General, Mr. Spratt, to see where that figure is coming from and what it is based on.

Another issue, and one I have raised before, is that approved battery electric vehicles, BEVs, with a listed price of less than €14,000 will not receive a grant. There is also a cap of €60,000 on the purchase price of all vehicles. We should perhaps raise a concern about the cap being so high. While EVs are more expensive, it is possible to buy them for €40,000 or less. I note that the correspondence we received in response contained a list of the type of vehicles being bought under the grant scheme.

BMWs loom very large in it and there are some Jaguars and Land Rovers which are hugely heavy vehicles. There are also loads of Mercedes. In corresponding with the Department we must ask, in the context of the use of public money, if any consideration has been given to reducing that subsidy. I do not wish to sound in any way anti those people within the commuter belt, but from the figures we have seen previously it appears that a lot of these cars are bought within the general Dublin area. People who live further away are, by and large, not buying into electric vehicles because of range anxiety. Do we have a situation here where people in rural areas are perhaps subsidising huge electric vehicles in the greater Dublin area? Has the Department given, or is it giving, any consideration to reducing that subsidy limit to under €60,000? It seems very high. Would any other member wish to come in on this? No.

No. 1098B from Mr. John Dollard, Chief Superintendent, An Garda Síochána, dated 18 February 2022 provides information requested by the committee regarding non-compliant procurement, including steps being taken to ensure that the operational needs on An Garda Síochána are met within procurement rules and guidelines. It is proposed to note and publish this item. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Members will be aware that we are scheduled to examine An Garda Síochána’s appropriation account on 31 March so please let the clerk know if there are any specific issues or areas of interest on which members wish to receive briefing information in advance of the meeting. This was flagged for discussion by Deputy Matt Carthy. Does Deputy Carthy wish to come in? No. I take it he is okay with this. The correspondence sets out the reasons, from An Garda Síochána’s point of view, why there was some non-compliant expenditure during Covid. We will have an opportunity to examine that further when the representatives are before the committee on 31 March.

No. 1099B from Ms Anne Graham, chief executive of the National Transport Authority, dated 22 February 2022 provides information requested by the committee arising from our meeting with the NTA on 27 January 2022. It runs to 22 pages and includes answers to 16 issues raised across a range of areas under the NTA’s remit. It is proposed to note and publish this correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. It was flagged for discussion by Deputies Catherine Murphy, Matt Carthy and Imelda Munster.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is useful information. The railway order for DART+ is for the Maynooth line and the Kildare line. They are in a process. One of the issues I raised with the NTA was the prospect of a parallel process for some additional extensions. The argument made by the NTA is that if we were to go back to the beginning the process would be delayed. There is no reason, however, that there could not be a separate process to add on some additional projects. The DART+ south west project, for example, stops at Hazelhatch. There is absolutely no reason why it could not go to Sallins or even to Newbridge, whether or not they have done any work in advancing that. On the other line, it could go from Maynooth to Kilcock, at the very least. The Dart+ West project is going to include the construction of eight large railway sheds in Kilcock. Essentially, the Dart will be going to Kilcock and the only problem is that people would not be able to get on. It seems like a daft idea that we would not be picking that low-hanging fruit. There is not a whole lot in the way between Hazelhatch and Sallins and perhaps this could be asked for. Since Covid, if one is listening to the traffic reports in the morning one is far more likely to hear about congestion on the periphery. There has been a more dramatic change there with regard to delays. It strikes me that these are projects that could be bolted onto those two DART+ projects. We should be asking the NTA what work it has done to advance them so they could happen in parallel, albeit with a separate process. We were speaking about electric cars. The best way to move people around is on public transport, if that could be made available with more frequent services and so on, which would go with the DART+ projects.

Chairman

Five tonnes of steel should not be necessary every time one wants to go somewhere. It is not necessary to bring five or six tonnes of steel whenever one goes out.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

No it is not. We need to be thinking about moving people rather than moving cars around the place.

Chairman

As I recall, the NTA made a commitment to come back to me on the bus stops and the bus shelters on the old N7 route through County Laois, and the N78 route. I do not see anything in the correspondence on that. Perhaps the secretariat can flag this with them in our next correspondence. This concerns the old N7 route, the Borris-in-Ossory route and the N78, which is Crettyard and Crettyard-Ballylynan.

We will move on to correspondence from and related to private individuals and any other correspondence. No. 1091C is from Deputy Alan Dillon, dated 21 February 2022, and is a request to the committee to consider scheduling a meeting with Eir. I would open the floor to Deputy Dillon first but I do not believe he is present. It was flagged for discussion by Deputy Catherine Murphy.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Perhaps we could postpone this item until Deputy Dillon is here, maybe next week.

Chairman

We will defer discussion on this correspondence until next week. No other correspondence has been flagged for consideration today

I will move on to our work programme. On 10 March, we will engage with the HSE regarding expenditure on mental health services, with a particular focus on CAMHS expenditure. Last week we agreed to request a detailed breakdown of HSE expenditure on mental health services as well as associated governance and oversight arrangements.

The HSE has also been advised that members might wish to examine expenditure in relation to the Owenacurra Centre in Cork, and we agreed to request that a representative from the estates management division in the HSE attend the meeting as well.

The HSE is aware that the committee might also wish to discuss HSE recruitment targets, budgeting, delivery and departmental oversight in the context of its expenditure on mental health services. This is in the context of some issues that have been raised recently.

The week after that, 17 March, is a non-sitting week.

We have requested confirmation from the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland that it will appear before the committee on 24 March. This has been confirmed.

On 31 March, we will commence a series of justice-related meetings. The following engagements have been confirmed: An Garda Síochána on 31 March; the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission for the morning of 7 April; and the Policing Authority for the afternoon of 7 April.

There are then two non-sitting weeks scheduled for Easter which means the next meeting will be on 27 April with the Department of Justice.

That is our last confirmed meeting. We then look to engage with University of Limerick, UL, the Department of Finance and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform after Easter. We may also schedule a meeting with the Department of Health and HSE to address a number of issues that are in the public domain and which we may want to discuss with them.

Are there any other matters related to our work programme that members wish to raise?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

On UL, it has been reported that report is further delayed and may well be subject to some legal scrutiny. I ask that we try to find out what the current position with that is.

Chairman

We will do that. It is a little bit away in any case. I hope it is addressed before then.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I will be surprised if it is.

Chairman

There is nothing fixed with them yet. As I said, we will look to engage with the Departments of Finance and of Public Expenditure and Reform after Easter. There are other issues flagged up by members as well that we do not have dates set for. Then there is the Department of Health and the HSE. Apart from that, that is it. There is nothing else members wish to raise. That concludes our consideration of the work programme for today. Our meeting next week will be an engagement with the HSE on its 2020 financial statement.

The committee adjourned at 3.12 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 10 March 2022.