Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 7 Dec 2023

Business of Committee

We are joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, a permanent witness to the committee. Members are reminded of the provisions of Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of the policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objective of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

This morning we were due to engage with the Department of Health on the 2022 appropriation account for Vote 38, Health, and Chapter 18 of the Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022. However, the Secretary General of the Department of Health informed the committee that he is unavoidably absent. As the Secretary General is the Accounting Officer and this function cannot be delegated, it has been decided to defer the engagement until such time as the committee can examine the appropriation accounts and chapter with the Accounting Officer present. We look forward to engaging with the Department of Health early in the new year, and I have communicated that to the Secretary General, as has the secretariat. We hope to have an early hearing in the new year, possibly as early as 1 February.

The other business before us this morning is as follows: minutes, accounts and financial statements, correspondence, work programme, and any other business. The first item is the minutes of the meeting of 30 November 2023, which have been circulated to members. Do members wish to raise any matters on the minutes? No. Are the minutes agreed? They are agreed. As usual, they will be published on the committee's web page.

The next business is accounts and financial statements. We have a short list today, with one set of accounts and financial statements laid before the Houses between 27 November and 1 December. I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to address it before opening the floor to members.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The financial statements relate to the National Treatment Purchase Fund board for 2022. They received a qualified audit opinion. The accounts in my opinion give a true and fair view except that they account for the cost of retirement benefit entitlements of staff only as they become payable. This is a standard qualification for health bodies, so there is nothing particularly significant in that regard.

Do members wish to raise any matters? No. Is it agreed to note the accounts and financial statements? Agreed. As usual, the listing of accounts and financial statements will be published as part of our minutes.

The next business is correspondence. As previously agreed, items that were not flagged for discussion at this meeting will be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated and decisions taken by the committee in relation to correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee’s meetings and published on the committee’s web page.

We have received one item of correspondence under category A. No. R2254 from the Department of Health, dated 5 December 2023, provides briefing material for the engagement with the Department which has been deferred to a future date. I propose that we defer consideration of this correspondence until the rescheduled meeting with the Department of Health. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Category B is correspondence from Accounting Officers or Ministers and follow-up to meetings of the Committee of Public Accounts. No. R2252 from Mr. David Moloney, Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, dated 28 November 2023, provides the minute of the Minister's response to the committee’s report, Examination of the 2019 Appropriation Account for Vote 10 – Tax Appeals Commission, and related matters. The report sets out three recommendations to the Department of Finance and the Tax Appeals Commission made by the Committee of Public Accounts to these two bodies. Members will see from the documentation that all three have been accepted, which is very welcome. Does any member wish to comment? No.

It is always good when PAC recommendations are accepted. I propose that we note and publish the item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.

That concludes our consideration of correspondence. I will move on to the work programme, which is now displayed on our screens if members have not got it in a hard copy.

At our next meeting on 14 December we will meet officials from the Housing Agency and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to consider Chapter 11 on the utilisation of the land aggregation scheme sites, the Housing Agency’s 2022 financial statements, and programme A of Vote 34 - Housing.

On 18 January 2024, we will meet officials from the Department of Social Protection to examine the 2022 appropriation account for Vote 37, the Social Insurance Fund 2022, the relevant chapters from the Comptroller and Auditor General's annual report and the misclassification of workers. We will also meet to examine the topic of the misclassification of workers on 25 January when we again meet officials from the Office of the Revenue Commissioners to examine the 2022 appropriation account for Vote 9, the account of the receipt of revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022 and the relevant chapters from the Comptroller and Auditor General's annual report. We have tried to schedule our meetings with the Department of Social Protection and the Revenue Commissioners with one following on from the other because of the subject involved.

We have agreed to reschedule our meeting with the officials from the Department of Health and officials from the HSE in terms of the 2022 appropriation account for Vote 38 - Health and Chapter 18 of the Report of the Public Services 2022. It is hoped that the rescheduled meeting will take place on 1 February, and, if not, on 8 February.

We will meet officials from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, Sport Ireland and the Football Association of Ireland. We will endeavour to meet them on 8 February if our meeting with the Department of Health happens on 1 February. I remind members to flag any areas of interest for any of our forthcoming meetings.

Last week, it was agreed to schedule a meeting with An Garda Síochána and GSOC together. It was also agreed to add the following to the work programme: the Department of Justice; the Department of Defence; the Department of Transport; the National Transport Authority; the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine; the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Authority and the Horse Racing Ireland at the same one; Inland Fisheries Ireland regarding its 2022 financial statements, which have not been laid but I hope they will be by the time we get around to that; the Office of Public Works; the Department of Foreign Affairs and international co-operation; the Department of Education; and the Residential Tenancies Board. Do members have a view on which meeting to prioritise in February? Perhaps, arising from our meeting last week, we should schedule our meeting with representatives of An Garda Síochána and GSOC for 15 February and get them in at an early point. I suggest that we meet the officials from the Department of Justice the following week on 22 February. Are members happy to do it that way?

Were there one or two areas where we did not get straight answers from representatives of Departments? I ask even though I know we await the next set of accounts. One instance concerns how the horse racing industry ran into problems on the morning and there may be another instance.

The Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board is up fairly high on the list.

Is there another entity?

I wish to inform members that the IHRB awaits a Mazars report on the matter that was raised.

I suggest we wait until that happens.

Yes, fair enough.

Can I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to update us on the 2022 financial accounts of Inland Fisheries Ireland?

They are not yet laid but I will bring in the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

They are signed. I just signed, in the last week, the IFI accounts for 2022 so they should be presented pretty quickly.

Regarding our meeting with GSOC, please clarify if the officials from the Department of Justice will be in attendance at the same time.

It is proposed that we meet the officials from the Department of Justice the following week. I think it is proposed that have the representatives of An Garda Síochána and GSOC in on the same day.

Yes. It is matter of how we approach this as a committee. My recollection of the last time the GSOC representatives were with us is that one of the significant areas of concern was the delays in terms of finalising complaints, particularly regarding persons under the age of 18. There was a very key, albeit a diplomatic answer, that the funding of GSOC was a key factor in that. I wonder about having a delegation from the Department in the room at the same time. I am not saying that we take away from the following meeting, but if a delegation from the Department is in the room at the same time as both the representatives of GSOC and An Garda Síochána, I think it might help the discussion although that is for consideration by the members. The key thing I took away from them on that occasion was that the delays were directly related to the resources that were provided.

Yes, the Deputy is correct about that. We could bring in a representative of the Department on the same day.

We could ask for a senior person from the Department to attend.

Given the debate around the use of force and how free gardaí feel to be able to use that discretionary power, etc., delays in GSOC are a key factor and we should press the matter, if we can, at the meeting.

I suggest that we list, as a specific item on the agenda, the timelines for the processing and completion of complaints to GSOC. I suggest that we specifically include that as one item. Would that be helpful? The Department official in attendance would need to be able to address the resourcing of GSOC as well. Is that okay? Yes.

We have a long list of issues to debate in the new year. Members will not be idle. Members may have issues coming up that are not scheduled for. Sometimes the unknown can provide quite a lot of work for us. If there are other suggestions, please put them forward because the schedule for the first half of the year is yours and it is important that the members make an input.

Is the work programme, as set out, agreed? The proviso is that the secretariat has to communicate back and forth with Departments and public bodies to ensure the availability of officials. Sometimes that means there is a need to make some changes. The secretariat would always contact me about it to reflect the wishes of members. Do members agree to the work programme that has been set out? Agreed.

The last item on our agenda is any other business. Are there any other issues that members wish to raise? No.

At our next meeting, at 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 14 December, we will engage with officials from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Housing Agency. Go raibh maith agaibh go léir.

The committee adjourned at 10.28 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 14 December 2023.
Barr
Roinn