COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 14 Dec 2023

Chapter 11 - Utilisation of the Land Aggregation Scheme Sites

Mr. Graham Doyle (Secretary General of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage) called and examined.

An Cathaoirleach

We have apologies from Deputy Munster. The witnesses are very welcome. I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are switched off or on silent mode.

Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means that witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the provisions of Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied this morning by Ms Maria Reck, audit manager at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. This morning we are going to engage with officials from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, and the Housing Agency, to examine the following matters: Appropriation accounts 2022: Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage Programme A - Housing; Financial statements 2022 - the Housing Agency; Report on the accounts of public services 2022: Chapter 11 - Utilisation of the land aggregation scheme sites.

We are joined by the following officials this morning. From the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Mr. Graham Doyle, Secretary General; Ms Áine Stapleton, assistant secretary, social housing division; Ms Caroline Timmons, assistant secretary, affordable housing division; Mr. David Kelly, assistant secretary, homeless, rental and social inclusion division; Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh, assistant secretary, housing policy and standards division; and Mr. Paul Hogan, acting assistant secretary, planning division. From the Housing Agency, we are joined by the following officials: Mr. Bob Jordan, CEO; Ms Claire Feeney, director of services and inclusion; and Mr. Jim Baneham, director of delivery and innovation. We are also joined this morning by Ms Jenny O'Connor, principal officer from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. You are all very welcome. We have the full team here this morning. I call on the Comptroller and Auditor General to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. At the meeting of the committee on 26 October, I outlined the key aspects of the 2022 Appropriation Account for Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage. I do not propose to repeat them here. Programme A, housing, accounted for expenditure of almost €3.4 billion in 2022, representing 60% of the overall spending on the Vote. The expenditure was spread across 34 separate subheads comprising funding programmes for social housing and more general housing market interventions. Funding under subhead A.23 for the Housing Agency increased very significantly in 2022 due to a late transfer of €125 million to the agency to establish a land acquisition fund. Effectively, this was funded from unspent allocations for the acquisition of local authority housing under subhead A.3.

The Housing Agency's financial statements indicate it had income of €50.3 million in 2022. This comprised mainly grant funding from the Vote for the ongoing pyrite remediation scheme and for the agency's normal operations, and incomes from the sale of housing units under the agency's revolving acquisitions fund. The land acquisition funding of €125 million received by the agency in December 2022 is recognised as a reserve and very significantly boosted the agency's cash position at the year end.

The report before the committee today examines the progress in developing the land aggregation scheme sites since 2019, when I last reported on this scheme. The scheme was established in 20101 to alleviate the financial burden on local authorities related to maturing Housing Finance Agency loans. The loans had been taken out by individual local authorities during the property boom years to buy land for future social housing development. Because that development did not proceed, the local authorities were not in a position to pay the loans when they matured. By the end of 2022, the scheme had cost the Vote almost €132 million and there were outstanding mortgages to the value of €35.6 million. While the payments were funded from the Vote, the sites were transferred into the ownership of the Housing Agency. A total of 73 sites were accepted into the scheme on the basis that they had reasonable development potential for social housing. A small number of the sites or parts of sites were disposed of. As of 31 August 2023, the agency retained ownership of 60 sites with an estimated market value of just over €56 million.

The examination found that almost half of the site area acquired under the scheme still had no development plans or proposals for delivery of social or affordable housing. The agency attributes this variously to infrastructural constraints, lack of demand for social housing in certain areas, individual site issues such as flooding risk, topographical unsuitability and zoning constraints. Although the Housing Agency assessed the scheme land bank as having the combined capacity to deliver an estimated 5,365 social housing units, just 676 social housing units had been delivered in the 13-year period since the scheme was established. This represents just under 13% of what was estimated could have been achieved.

Due to a lack of development it is anticipated that 28 of the sites will, in due course, be liable to residential zoned land tax, which it is estimated will cost the Housing Agency approximately €1.5 million per year.

Overall, when the land aggregation scheme succeeded in reducing the indebtedness of certain local authorities to the Housing Finance Agency. The apparent unsuitability of a significant part of the scheme's land area for any foreseeable social housing purpose casts doubt over the value for money achieved in the procurement of this land.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I am pleased to be here this morning to assist the committee in further examination of programme a under Vote 34 following on from our attendance some weeks ago and chapter 11 - utilisation of the land aggregation scheme sites. We look forward to addressing questions and I have provided some advance briefing material along with responses to the questions arising from the wider session on 26 October.

I am joined by colleagues from the Housing Agency who will be assisting with discussions on chapter 11 and also answering the committee's questions in relation to their financial statements for 2022.

At the previous session, which dealt with Vote 34 work and work across the Department, I mentioned the scale and breadth of the Department's activities with ten divisions and dealing with number of priorities under the programme for Government. The focus and commitment of staff, and staff across more than 20 bodies under the aegis of the Department, local authority partners and many other stakeholders, continues.

There are significant challenges in the housing market in Ireland today and my Department is working with colleagues across Government to address these. Just as there is no single cause, no single solution is possible. A range of new programmes has been introduced over the last two to three years aimed at driving increased supply from many angles and providing support to the cohorts that need it.

The mechanisms by which housing is delivered have become increasingly complex. This complexity includes varying funding models, enabling the delivery across capital and current streams, a requirement for the development of new schemes, particularly in the area of affordable housing, a range of approaches to address vacancy and many other things.

The development of new schemes and bringing them forward from inception to roll out has entailed considerable work in conjunction with the various stakeholders and delivery partners. Adaptations and changes in some of these schemes were required in the face of challenges in the market, particularly interest rates, inflation, legal hurdles to be crossed, etc. These are all aimed at arriving at a position where the schemes can work and ultimately deliver.

Overall, significantly increased funding levels have been allocated to the Department across a number of subheads to support these developments. The annual Vote at current and capital funding provided for housing under programme A has increased from just over €2 billion to just over €3.5 billion in the space of five years.

The pattern of spend, particularly in relation to capital funding, continues to occur in quarter 4 of a given year, where local authorities submit large volumes of claims towards the end of the year within the order of 50% of the annual provision being spent generally in quarter 4. While we engaged earlier this year with the committee on 2022 capital spend, overall capital expenditure to the end of November is just over €700 million higher or approximately 40% higher compared to the same period last year.

The challenges that have arisen in recent years, including supply interruption during the pandemic, inflation following the Russian invasion of Ukraine, increased rate environment and also new demands arising have all had an effect. Agility and responsiveness have been necessary, together with a focus on value for money. To address the overall challenge and to be well positioned to pivot towards priority areas, the system as a whole must be looked at. This has meant making changes to schemes where required.

Under Housing for All, the supply of new homes to the broader housing system is increasing. Some 31,500 new homes were completed over the 12 months to the end of September this year. Building commenced on just over 26,500 new homes in the first ten months of this year. This is a 17% increase on the period last year. The second annual update of Housing for All was recently published. It sets out policy and delivery priorities for the year ahead. These include measures aimed at improving viability of housing construction, including the adoption of modern methods of construction, as well as enhancing construction sector capacity and reforming the planning system.

Regarding social and affordable housing delivery, local authorities, AHB sector and the LDA continue to work in partnership with the Department. In 2022 the overall delivery of new homes in Ireland was more than 29,000 new homes in Ireland. In this context, more than 10,000 homes were added to the social housing stock. Just under 7,500 of these were new build social homes and a further 1,800 were mainly through new build, leasing and other programmes with the remainder largely through acquisition. We have seen strong spend on social housing this year with significant units expected to be delivered in quarter 4, exceeding last year's output. Given the number of projects on site, the pipeline for 2024 is strong.

At our last meeting we spoke about 2022 representing the first year of an ambitious programme on affordable housing with more than 1,700 affordable purchase and cost-rental interventions made in 2022. By the end of Q3 this was more than 3,800 across the various programmes with more expected to the end of the year. The affordable schemes are new and given the challenging environment, we are happy to see good appetite on the part of various partners. In the past few months, the Minister has approved €448 million in funding to support the delivery of more than 1,900 new cost rental and affordable purchase homes. This momentum will continue as we build the pipeline of affordable housing with local authorities, AHBs approved housing and the LDA.

The public awareness of the supports available has had a positive impact, with a good response to our recent open doors campaign. This included information for the public about the first home scheme, the local authority home loan, help to buy, local authority affordable purchase scheme, cost rental and the vacant property refurbishment grant.

An Cathaoirleach

The next piece is on homelessness and the Housing Agency. Please move on to the conclusion because we got the statement earlier yesterday.

Mr. Graham Doyle

My apologies. I did not time this as well as I hoped.

In conclusion, I would like to note the ongoing co-operation by all stakeholders involved in the delivery of the work programme, the scale undertaken by the Department across agencies and delivery partners, local authorities, NGOs and AHB sector. They continue to be acutely focused on achieving the best for citizens.

Mr. Bob Jordan

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for the opportunity to attend today. I am joined by my colleagues, Mr. Jim Baneham, director of delivery and innovation, and Ms Claire Feeney, director of services and inclusion. The Housing Agency provides expertise and solutions to help deliver sustainable communities throughout Ireland. We work with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, local authorities and AHBs in the delivery of housing and housing services.

To meet the housing challenges facing our society, the Housing Agency's role has significantly increased in recent years. New areas of work since the publication of Housing for All, include the land acquisition fund, cost-rental equity loan, security tenancy affordable rental investment scheme, the Croí Cónaithe city scheme and the enhanced defective concrete blocks grant scheme,

We have recently been tasked with administering the interim remediation scheme for the funding of emergency fire safety works in apartments and duplexes announced by the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, earlier this week. Our operational budget for 2023 is €16 million and we currently have 157 staff in the agency.

In January this year, we presented to the committee on the €70 million Housing Agency acquisitions fund. This fund has since been repurposed for the acquisition of properties for Housing First and for the cost rental tenant in situ scheme.

Today, we are here to discuss the land aggregation scheme. This was established in 2010 to alleviate the financial burden on local authorities relating to mature Housing Finance Agency loans where residential development of the land had not proceeded. A total of 73 sites were accepted into the scheme, with ownership transferred to the Housing Agency. In managing these sites, the Housing Agency has supported the delivery of 736 social and affordable homes to date. A further 2,482 homes will be delivered on land aggregation scheme, LAGS, sites through local authorities, AHBs and the LDA in the coming years.

Building on our work under the land aggregation scheme, the Housing Agency took on a new role in acquiring land for the direct development of housing in November 2022. A land acquisition fund of €125 million was established by the Government to enable local authorities and AHBs to meet their housing targets out to 2030. A further €114 million has recently been committed to this fund.

The Housing Agency has a number of priority areas of work. A key focus of our work is to increase the supply of new homes. We carry out financial assessments of social housing funding for AHBs and we have expanded our technical team to support to support local authorities and AHBs to deliver housing projects. We support the delivery of cost-rental homes by providing cost-rental equity loans to AHBs and by facilitating the roll out of the secure tenancy affordable rental investment scheme.

We carry out the assessment of applications submitted by local authorities to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage for the affordable housing fund and we provide a central underwriting service for local authority home loans. We manage the roll out of the Croí Cónaithe city scheme to increase the supply of new apartments for home purchasers.

We are also supporting local authorities in the delivery of the vacant property refurbishment grant and the town centre first policy to address vacancy and dereliction.

Another priority of the Housing Agency is to address social inclusion issues. The agency co-ordinates the national housing first programme to end long-term homelessness and we support the implementation of the youth homelessness strategy. We also play a key role in delivering the national housing strategy for disabled people.

Regarding the remediation of defective homes, we oversee the delivery of the pyrite remediation scheme on behalf of the Pyrite Resolution Board and we support local authorities in implementing the enhanced defective concrete blocks grant scheme. As I mentioned, we are also implementing the interim remediation scheme for essential fire safety works in defective apartments.

Finally, we contribute to policy development of public discourse by undertaking research. For example, we undertake the annual summary of social housing assessments. We run a research support programme that funds high-quality housing research and we support housing practitioners with training and conferences.

The Housing Agency is committed to ensuring there is financial probity, good governance structures and efficient measures in place to meet the remit and objectives of the agency. Earlier this year, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage commenced work on a periodic critical review of the Housing Agency. It is expected this review will be published in quarter 1, 2024.

I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff for their assistance and courtesy in conducting their work. I also thank the committee and Chairperson for their attention and will answer any questions they may have.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank the witnesses who attended and, as the Chairperson referenced, the timeliness with which we got this documentation. It was very helpful in preparing for the meeting. There is still a large volume of documentation, which is difficult to get through, but it made a big difference to get it so early in the day.

I will concentrate first on the land aggregation scheme, LAGS, which we referenced. I might circle around to a concern I have in respect of the Housing Finance Agency and issues such as the approved housing bodies, AHBs, and the local authority spends. The committee and the Comptroller and Auditor General do not have a clear line of sight on that. I will see how I am doing on time.

I think we all understand the rationale for what happened between 2010 and 2012. The country’s public finances were in an awful state. These loans were maturing and local authorities were going find themselves significantly underwater. We all understand that. The concern is the metrics applied at the time and subsequently as well. These sites have been assessed on multiple occasions – when they were first bought and in 2018. Am I correct?

Mr. Bob Jordan

Yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The phrase here is that local authorities could only transfer a land that had a reasonable residential development potential. I will begin with that because it is a very hazy phrase. Can the witnesses give me more detail on the metrics?

First, the Department approved or rejected the inclusion of sites into the LAGS. How many were rejected? How many did we buy and how many did we say “No” to? The answer to that will perhaps inform my question about metrics.

Mr. Graham Doyle

On the first question, we took - or accepted - 70 sites, I think.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Was it 73?

Mr. Graham Doyle

We accepted 73 sites - just over 70 - and refused 25.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

A good number were rejected and did not hit reasonable residential development potential. How was that defined? Looking through the map, which is where I started, and trying to understand it, I wonder about it. What metrics were applied?

Mr. Bob Jordan

My colleague, Mr. Baneham, was involved at the time, so perhaps he can answer.

Mr. Jim Baneham

I was in the Housing Agency at the time. One of the first tasks of the Housing Agency was examining the plan proposed by local authorities in respect of the land aggregation scheme.

Regarding the metrics applied, they were: whether they were zoned for housing; whether they had access to services and could be serviced; and their proximity and so on to amenities such as schools and other community infrastructure. One thing I would say about the assessment relative to what we are doing now with the land acquisition fund is the criteria was not time-based in the way we would look at it now. There was kind of a broader interpretation of whether something could be developed for housing. Again, going back to the context of the time, it was not clear when these lands would be developed and there was not a particular assessment of how soon they may be developed. However, they were assessed as whether they could be developed for housing.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

They were assessed again in 2018.

Mr. Jim Baneham

Yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Of the 73 sites that were first acquired, when it was returned to in 2018, did people say, “Jeepers. We might be after buying a pig in a poke here. Applying present metrics, there is no way we would touch these now”?

Mr. Jim Baneham

I was directly involved in 2018 and I drafted that report. From memory, 37 sites were determined as not developable in the near term. At that point in time, it was fairly clear that we had sites that would not be developed in the short term and there were other sites that we knew were pretty good. As things panned out, a small number of the sites that we thought would not be developed have become developable. However, the vast majority have not. One or two that we assessed as developable in the nearer term have not quite panned out, usually for infrastructure issues.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Can Mr. Baneham give me an understanding of the constraints? Are all of these sites currently zoned residential?

Mr. Jim Baneham

They would not necessarily all be zoned residential. The vast majority of the time, they would have been when they were proposed. However, there are sites in smaller towns and villages where there is no zoning per se but they can be developed under the overall county development plan.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

We will incur a certain amount of liability under the residential zoned land tax.

Mr. Jim Baneham

Yes. Obviously, any of the sites affected by that are zoned for residential development. Returning to the 2018 assessment, it was done around the time the national planning framework, NPF, was being introduced as well. What we saw then and subsequently as well is that there were lands that had been zoned residential that were subsequently dezoned as they were not considered to be within the overall planning framework of denser development.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Have many been impacted by changes in county development plans, for example?

Mr. Jim Baneham

Certainly a number of them. I cannot give the precise number. One or two that have been changed in terms of their development plans are definitely sticking to mind.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Is there a constraint on what is allowed to be built on these sites? Does it have to be social or social affordable? Are there density guidelines that need to be adhered to?

Mr. Jim Baneham

The density guidelines are set out by the relevant local development plan. For a long time when we had LAGS land, the only fundable development was social housing. It was only with the advent of the Affordable Housing Act and the funding streams linked to affordable housing from 2021 onwards in the Housing for All plan that they are being looked at to deliver affordable housing as well. There are some schemes that have been successful in achieving affordable housing funding from local authorities.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

We can accept the historical situation that local authorities between 2010 and 2012 absolutely needed the bailout, and I think we can probably accept that we kissed a lot of frogs. There are 40-odd sites we are not seeing any movement on. A question arose as I was reading the material. Where is the endpoint? At what point do we say there are 40 sites that we cannot move on? Some sites have been disposed of. How many do we just dezone and list for some sort of other use?

I will give an example. I was trying to understand this, so I looked at my own local context to try to help me understand it. There is a site in west Waterford that I assume is in or around Tallow. We still have 4.3 ha there. I was thinking about 4.3 ha in the context of the area.

This is why I asked about the density. I was trying to get a handle on how many houses we are talking of and with the local knowledge of the context of that part of west Waterford I was thinking there is no way there is a demand for social housing that will fill 4.3 ha in that part of Waterford. At what point do we draw a line, dezone the land and try to move it on or whatever?

Mr. Bob Jordan

That is a good question. Obviously, some circumstances have changed for the negative since we acquired these sites, but it is also important to say that since the advent of the LDA we are going to deliver about 1,400 units on LDA sites. That is twice the total that has been delivered so far.

On the rest of the sites, the Comptroller and Auditor General's report has been really useful to the board of the agency. We have met twice in recent months to discuss it. While it obviously requires ministerial approval, we have decided that we will have an operational strategy that essentially looks at disposing of these sites in one way or another over the next 12 months. That involves a cascading process to look once more at the potential for social and affordable housing, and running it through other Departments, the OPW and so on. If there are sites that really have no potential for anybody within the State sector, ultimately, they will have to be disposed of totally. Our commitment is not to hold onto these lands - lands should be used - and to get this strategy approved by the Minister in order that the next time we come back to the committee, something or other will be happening with all of this land.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Could Mr. Jordan provide a rough estimation? I do not mean a back-of-the-envelope estimate. Have we spent €132 million on these sites? We reckon there is an estimated market value €56 million. That is from the Comptroller and Auditor General's opening statement. How deep are we in the hole? How much does Mr. Jordan reckon this will cost the State by the time we actually work the process through?

Mr. Bob Jordan

In terms of-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Money.

Mr. Jim Baneham

The €132 million is all the original loan overlap to the end of 2022. The €56 million was the market value of lands we still retained. We still retained the vast majority of those lands at the time that was done. There is a gap in the value that was assessed at the time they were purchased. Some interest would have accrued on those loans. Broadly speaking, the gap is in the region of €80 million.

Ms Claire Feeney

They are due to be revalued next year. We are doing an exercise on that in the first quarter.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I have question for the Department on the budgeting process. I was looking through Vote 34. We are supposed to pay attention to anything that is plus or minus 5%. The following is just from two pages in front of me. There was a provision of €500,000 for mortgage provision. The outturn was €397,000, which means there was an underspend of 20%. There was also a provision for "affordable housing/shared ownership" of €3 million. The outturn was €1.45 million, so that means there was an underspend of 50%. There was also a provision of €17 million for the local infrastructure housing activation fund, LIHAF - which I will return to - and a 50% underspend. There was a provision for pyrite or mica remediation of €60 million. The outturn was €28.7 million. Notwithstanding all we said about Covid or X, Y and Z, the miscellaneous provisions jumped out at me. This does not come under programme A, but this committee convulsed itself over €75,000 being paid to Ryan Tubridy. We have €500,000 of additional receipts listed here under miscellaneous, and the explanation we have been given is that they are hard to make provision for. We have this in a lot of places.

What are the checks and balances? Mr. Doyle knows that he will end up in front of the Committee of Public Accounts to justify what is in Vote 34. What are the processes within his Department in that regard and what are the processes when his Department engages with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform whereby he tells people that this is not good enough and that the Estimate is wildly off? It makes the job really difficult for people sitting on this side of the table when there is such a huge variance between what is said by witnesses at different Oireachtas committees when their Departments are looking for sign-off on the Estimates, versus what is said when they come back to us. What are the processes so that we can do substantially and significantly better than what we see here?

Mr. Graham Doyle

The Deputy's has made a fair overall point. As one looks at some of the things he mentioned and examines the Vote as a whole, one can see that it is an enormous Department with an extremely broad remit. Housing alone is enormous, and the range of new areas in the past number of years-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I also sit on the Joint Committee on Social Protection, Rural and Community Development and the Islands. The Department of Social Protection also has a massive budget. I know what we do with the Estimates and Supplementary Estimates processes.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Sure.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I run through what is presented and look for the percentage variances. Where there is a big one that is where I ask a question. I can tell you it is not-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

There are quite a number of big ones-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

It is not of this size and it is not as many instances. Certainly we are not looking at variations that are 50% plus or minus across heads that are in the millions of euro.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I am a chartered accountant by profession. I do the same thing. I can see this, but I can also see the amount of scrutiny that goes into trying to negotiate and work through the Estimates process with our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. It is significant. There are a lot of new areas in housing. There are a lot of things that are very dependent on what happens in the market. As the Deputy said, 2022 was a particularly volatile year in the market generally with all of the changes that took place, including with construction shutting down. The Deputy knows all of these things. Yes, it is very challenging to try to put these numbers together.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I am just imagining it. I have not had the privilege of being a member of Cabinet or anything like that, but I can imagine it. We all hear that housing is one factor in the breakdowns in the social contract we are seeing in Ireland. It is a huge priority for this Government. I am imagining the Minister with responsibility for housing having to walk in and face the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and ask for money when the latter is looking at this and saying "But your Estimate is all over the place".

Mr. Graham Doyle

The Deputy have mentioned mica. We provided an amount of money that we expect and hope for. We made that available to be drawn down and then circumstances changed. In that situation, there was significant demand for revisions to the relevant scheme. In that case, there is a situation where claims are not made pending revisions to that scheme. It is not particularly foreseeable at the time the Department is trying to put the Estimate together. I appreciate that this is the case in quite a number of areas in the Department, exactly as the Deputy said, but given the scale, breadth and newness of a lot of what we are trying to do, and especially in the housing space, capital spend can notoriously swing, as the Deputy will know. We are a heavy capital spending Department as well. Some of this is part and parcel and some of it may be a bit beyond that in terms of the times we have been in and the circumstances we found ourselves in.

I can tell the committee that our best efforts go into this, and there is a lot of toing and froing between ourselves and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform on all of these matters. They certainly do not like giving or applying money they do not believe will be spent. I appreciate that this happens and we have just got to keep trying to work through the process and hopefully see some of those swings narrow.

Deputy Colm Burke

On the land aggregation scheme, 736 houses have been delivered over 13 years. That works out at 56 houses per annum. Under proposals for development, the Department is talking about 12 sites. Why is it taking so long to get proposals for development? In fairness, 13 years is a long time to get to that point. If a private developer acquires land and does not have it developed 13 years later, that developer carries the cost of borrowing to buy the land. Why did what we are talking about take so long to come to the stage it is now at?

Mr. Bob Jordan

I agree with the Deputy that it is a very long time. The Housing Agency was the custodian of these lands. We do not develop the lands. We are reliant on local authorities and approved housing bodies to express a need for them. We meet with them, and we have done since the beginning of the scheme, on a quarterly basis to discuss these lands. We have also put out two calls for expressions of interest to the approved housing body sector. In recent years with the advent of the LDA certainly more than 1,400 units will be delivered in the coming years on sites there.

Deputy Colm Burke

Is that in the coming year, five years or ten years?

Mr. Bob Jordan

By the end of 2026. Today, the LDA announced that it has appointed a contractor to deliver 219 social and affordable homes at the former Devoy Barracks. It is moving on.

While lands may not have been appropriate for social and affordable housing under development plans, we have offered nine sites to provide, for instance, accommodation for Ukrainians. Forty-two of those are already in place in Rathdowney, County Laois. We have developed biodiversity plans for about 20 of the sites. Sports grounds are being provided on some of them and some will be used for school facilities, etc.

We obviously have to bottom out whether social and affordable housing will ever be delivered on these sites, and then cascade downwards and see if we can find other sites.

Deputy Colm Burke

At a time of housing shortage, 13 years is a considerable period to come to that decision.

According to note 13 of the 2022 financial statements of the Housing Agency, €3.35 billion has been loaned to local authorities and €3.214 billion has been loaned to approved housing bodies. Is that correct?

Mr. Graham Doyle

The loans were advanced by the Housing Finance Agency, as opposed to the Housing Agency. Is that what the Deputy is referring to?

Deputy Colm Burke

Yes.

Mr. Graham Doyle

We do not have anyone from the Housing Finance Agency with us today. It is the body that advances those loans to the local authority sector and AHBs.

Deputy Colm Burke

Where are the checks and balances in relation to the Department and all of the housing agencies? It is a substantial amount of money. We have already heard that one of the approved housing bodies has run into difficulties. Is the Department satisfied there are enough checks and balances in place?

Mr. Graham Doyle

In terms of the loans advanced, particularly around social and affordable housing to local authorities and AHBs, I know that the Housing Finance Agency, like any lender, engages in significant due diligence when advancing those loans. That has been the case. The Deputy referred to a situation in an entity that also acts, on occasion, as an AHB as well as a provider of other services to the public. We have not seen significant issues with defaults or anything like that around local authorities or AHBs.

Deputy Colm Burke

Why are we becoming ever more reliant on approved housing bodies as opposed to local authorities? Why has that slippage occurred? The AHBs and local authorities are borrowing nearly equal amounts so obviously property development by both is almost equal. What is wrong with the system that over 50% of funding is now going to approved housing bodies? Is there a glitch in the system in the sense of taking too long for decisions to be made?

Mr. Graham Doyle

No. In terms of the delivery of social housing, for example, the policy is 40% AHB and 60% local authority. The AHBs have done better over time and the ratio is 50:50 in Cork and Dublin. The AHBs are a significant part and have been bringing forward quite a number of projects over the last number of years. The local authorities have been trying to rebuild their own delivery capacity since the crash and we have been particularly trying to assist with that in recent times.

Deputy Colm Burke

The period from when the local authority acquires land to actually getting a development is the issue. Has the Department examined how each local authority is performing as regards the timescale? Can they become more efficient in the delivery?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Yes. A huge focus for Ms Stapleton and her team, in particular around social housing, is trying to make it easier for local authorities to deliver. We have a whole range of measures trying to support them to get adequate land in the first place, changing the four-stage process to a one-stage process, which significantly helps them to speed up their delivery, and trying to provide additional resourcing. There are 250 new posts gone in.

Deputy Colm Burke

Does it still take six or seven years from the start to getting a finished product?

Mr. Graham Doyle

No, I do not think we would necessarily see quite as long as that. By the time you start bringing a very significant project forward, you can be into a number of years. When you get into the design process-----

Deputy Colm Burke

Given the demand for housing and growth in population, do we need to re-examine how we can deliver faster and more efficiently in a shorter time period?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Absolutely, and we are doing that all the time. In my notes I have a list of about 15 interventions we have made to do just that, particularly with the local authorities. We have talked with the Chair about things like modern methods of construction and new design lay-outs. The Department has been developing a huge number of approaches, in conjunction with local authorities, to speed up that timeframe.

Deputy Colm Burke

On the issue of accountability, to return to the LAGS and the acquisition of land, I will give two examples. Naas Town Council acquired 5 h of land for over €8 million, which works out at around €2 million per hectare. Likewise, Cork County Council acquired land at a cost of over €700,000 per hectare in 2001. There did not appear to be any accountability at that stage. Is there sufficient accountability in place between approved housing agencies and local authorities while ensuring we get value for money for the funding we provide?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Yes, the control environment has radically changed since prior to the crash. There is a huge amount of process and auditing. The Comptroller and Auditor General has a role, as does this committee, at the higher level. There is auditing right down through the system of internal controls around how land is procured and how the procurement of anything is done these days. There is a huge amount of scrutiny, valuations at various levels and independence. There is a whole series of checks and balances. There is a huge nervousness throughout the public service after the crash and the issues that led up to that. Nobody wants to be in that space again where people are seen to have hugely overpaid for something, for example.

Deputy Colm Burke

On Irish Water and sewerage treatment, over 500 facilities built in the 2000 to 2008 period are not up to scratch from an environmental point of view and from the process that is in place. What is planned to get all of those facilities up to a proper standard? Local authorities have refused to take over estates until Irish Water takes over sewerage treatment plants but Irish Water is refusing to do so because the plants are not up to standard.

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy's time is up. He has asked a substantial but relevant question about an issue that is not on today's agenda. I suggest the Deputy keep his question for the second round of questions when he will get a more substantial answer than we would in the 20 seconds available now. That would also be fairer to the witnesses. While I recognise that the subject matter of the question is not on the agenda, it would be great to get a reply as the issue crops up repeatedly. It is a very relevant question on housing delivery and taking estates in charge. The local authorities have deemed them to be ready to go but Irish Water has said they are not ready to go. If it is okay with the Deputy, he can ask his question in the second round.

Deputy Colm Burke

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy can pop in again if he has to go to the Chamber.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for the briefing material they have supplied.

I wish to start with Mr. Jordan regarding the Housing Agency and the annual report. Mr. Jordan spoke of 73 sites that were inherited - let us call it that. He said 25 sites were refused during that process. I heard what he said that some may be sold. If they are not suitable for social housing - presumably they were not zoned, which perhaps was one of the criteria as to why they were not accepted - is it up to the local authority, ultimately, to sell them? Does the Housing Agency have a process for that? As they have been refused, do they go back to the authority for it to make a decision?

Mr. Bob Jordan

The local authorities are always at the centre of decision-making. Ultimately, we are trying to bottom out whether the land can be used for social and affordable housing. If it is not, it can be used for other purposes such as car parking, sports facilities, community grounds and so on. Regarding the disposal of lands, ultimately, it is a ministerial decision. We want to engage intensively with the local authorities where these remaining lands are located and come to a final decision in the next 12 months. It is correct for Deputies to point out that this has gone on for quite a long time. It is an historical issue and needs to be dealt with.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Is the process speeding up? We want to ensure this process is more streamlined from the Housing Agency's perspective and that of the engagement between the Housing Agency and the local authorities.

Mr. Bob Jordan

The reason it had slowed down is also the reason the lands were transferred to us, which is that there was no capital money available at the time. It sped up because new opportunities have come about under Housing for All and the advent of the Land Development Agency and other needs. Also, AHBs are playing a more prominent role in the delivery of housing. There are other needs out there. Even if these lands are not used for housing, they can contribute to sustainable communities. We want to make sure we bottom it out completely with local authorities and get this done, ideally, before the residential zoned land tax comes into play in February 2025. Perhaps that is the purpose of the tax; to speed it up. That is what we are doing.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I wish to focus on the land the Housing Agency has, that is, the 73 sites. An estimated 5,365 units are to be delivered on it. The Comptroller and Auditor General already has spoken about the 676 units, that was estimated at about 52 units per year over 13 years. It is quite slow. We need to ensure that figure has a few zeroes after it. What has been the change in the past few months or years to ensure those units and more are being delivered on those sites?

Mr. Bob Jordan

Since the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General published its review, the number has gone up to 136 units, which includes 42 homes for Ukrainian short-term accommodation. A further 225 social and affordable homes are in progress on five sites. As I mentioned earlier, there are three very large sites in Fingal with Hacketstown in Skerries and Hampton in Balbriggan and in County Kildare at Devoy Barracks in Naas. Collectively, they will deliver 1,381 additional social and affordable homes.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Are those plans being progressed?

Mr. Bob Jordan

Those lands are in the process of being transferred to the Land Development Agency. Those units will be delivered by 2026. There are development plans on a further four sites. They are at an earlier stage. It involves 192 social and affordable homes. There are also lands with initial proposals for 684 social and affordable homes.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

It is a sea change.

Mr. Bob Jordan

That is a sea change. The figure will go from 700 now to more than 3,200. If we can identify other proposals for the remaining lands, we will not be too far away from our original figure.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Mr. Jordan said that the remaining lands, the 28 sites, could be subject to the residential zone land tax. How progressed are the plans for those sites?

Mr. Bob Jordan

At the moment, there are no plans or proposals. That is the issue.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

What is the issue with them?

Mr. Bob Jordan

There are a number of issues. One is demand. They are in areas where there is insufficient social or affordable demand, as identified by the local authority under its housing needs demand assessment. Some have capacity issues with infrastructure, water service capacity, road access and so on. Several have additional constraints such as topography, where the physical features hinder development. Alternative zoning is another, whereby residential zoning is not permitted, has been changed under the development plan or there are conservation and heritage issues where lands are in a conservation area. These are impediments and constraints. When these lands were originally purchased, they were purchased, I would say, with a longer-term view. This is the challenge - to bottom this out with the local authorities.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Where the challenge exists vis-à-vis water and drainage, what is the relationship and co-operation with Irish Water on those sites and all sites?

Mr. Bob Jordan

Co-operation with Irish Water is very good. It is very responsive.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

It is not holding up any development?

Mr. Bob Jordan

The dominant issue is that the world has changed and developing big greenfield sites is no longer desirable. Lands located near to villages are not necessarily a priority for social and affordable housing. We must identify what can be done with the local authorities.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I only have a few minutes left. I wish to touch on a few other items. The multi-unit development and owner-management company seminars which the Housing Agency frequently runs are very beneficial, particularly for those who are new or unlucky enough to serve on management companies. They need that information and expertise. I suggest that the Housing Agency needs to give more of a lead-in time. The timeframe for promoting and advertising is very short. They are invaluable. Perhaps the witness will take that message away.

To focus on homelessness, the national Housing First strategy and that of youth homelessness are two issues about which all Members of the House are concerned. A colleague spoke about some of the issues within homeless charities that we have faced over the past few months, which are extremely worrying. Has that had an impact on the national strategy, given the size of that player, in the delivery of homeless services?

Mr. Bob Jordan

Housing First is a Government initiative that targets people who are rough sleeping or are long-term homeless, moves them into permanent accommodation and puts intensive wraparound supports around them. It is very successful. In eight to nine out of ten cases, somebody who has been living on the streets who has moved into a Housing First tenancy will remain out of homelessness permanently. The commitment in the Housing First national implementation plan, which came in under Housing for All, is for an additional 1,319 Housing First tenancies to be delivered by the end of 2026. We are fully on target for that. In fact, the target for this year is 269 Housing First tenancies. That will be exceeded. There has been no impact whatsoever from some of the issues the Deputy mentioned.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

It is good to hear that it is being exceeded. The mortgage to rent scheme touches on people who are at risk of losing their homes. Some 6,000 individuals have availed of that scheme since it began. What is the current trajectory by the Housing Agency for the demand, given the inflationary cycle over the past 12 months?

Mr. Bob Jordan

Ms Feeney leads on the mortgage to rent scheme.

Ms Claire Feeney

We expect to see an increase. During the year, we did the expression of interest, which increased the number of suppliers for mortgage to rent. We hope to have them in place in January to hit the ground running. We expect that there will be an increase. There are still legacy cases. We engage quite regularly with all of the lenders. It is not so much from the high street lenders, because of the loan sales, but the indications from service providers are that they still have substantial numbers, 5,000 to 8,000, from the last round of issues.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Is there good engagement and take-up of the scheme at present? My main concern is that those who need to avail of it are aware of it, that it is being offered and that those applications are being progressed.

Ms Claire Feeney

We and the Department are working on a communications strategy for quarter 1 because of that exact issue. It will coincide with the launch of the new providers. Capacity in the scheme will be increased.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

There was a mention of housing for Ukrainians. It is not necessarily Mr. Doyle's Department but it involves local authorities, including in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. In April 2022, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council opened the Ballyogan Regional Temporary Rest Centre for Ukrainians. There is a capacity for 300 but there are only about 30 places being utilised and this has been ongoing for a number of months. I ask Mr. Doyle to take that back to the Department and engage with Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council and with other colleagues in the Department.

An Cathaoirleach

Just to clarify, regarding the new providers coming on to the mortgage-for-rent scheme, is Ms Feeney referring to approved housing bodies?

Ms Claire Feeney

Both approved bodies and private providers.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I welcome the witnesses back to the committee. I want to follow on from what Deputy Ó Cathasaigh asked Mr. Doyle. Mr. Doyle made a comment on the scale and breadth of his Department, of which housing is such a big part. Is he overwhelmed? Is the Department too big?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I would not say that at all. The Deputy can see our Vote, the number of subheads in our Vote, the range of programmes and the breadth of the Department. It is significant. The Exchequer funding that comes through the Department, at €6.7 billion, is very significant. What I was saying to Deputy Ó Cathasaigh is that, as we look across housing in particular and variants in particular subheads, many of these areas are new or there has been a huge new drive under them. That is what I was getting at.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Yes, but the question was regarding the Department's Estimates. How does the Department get them so wrong? Why are they so far out and why does the Department keep getting the money if the Estimates are so far out? There is underspend everywhere, yet not in this case. That was the question.

Mr. Graham Doyle

We have been able to apply underspend in certain areas to other areas where the delivery has been very good, for example, under the capital assistance scheme. There are some good news stories where we have seen over-delivery and an ability to apply funding. We have been able to fund land. There are quite a number of things we have been able to do. It is obviously very challenging. We sit down at the start of any year or over a number of years when dealing with a NDP programme. The capital allocations under the NDP were agreed back in 2021. A lot has happened in the world since 2021. As one looks out into any period, budgeting in any organisation is a difficult thing. I have been engaged with it in many different types of organisations. From my experience, I would say the most complex version is in a Department like this.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Mr. Jordan stated, regarding the land aggregation, that some of the sites were not suitable and that the Housing Agency had offered them as Ukrainian accommodation sites. Is that correct? Why would the sites be suitable for accommodating Ukrainians if they were not suitable for accommodating Irish people?

Mr. Bob Jordan

It is because it is not long-term accommodation. These are modular homes. They have been assessed by the local authorities and by the OPW and 42 units have been delivered in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown.

Deputy Verona Murphy

According to a report that came out yesterday, more than 100,000 Ukrainians have been taken in and 16,000 Ukrainians are in jobs. If it is not a place where an Irish person can live and avail of services, would it not be fair to say that it is an impediment to someone who comes here as refugee finding a job if the services are not available? We are not doing ourselves any favours.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I will respond to that question.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It was interesting that Mr. Jordan made the point. If it is the case that we will throw up a few modular homes on any bit of land that is available, I do not find that acceptable. I do not think anybody does. The lack of communication in our communities is giving rise to the far right being able to cause problems and riots. We are expected to integrate. That is what communities do but not if they are placed in the back end of nowhere on a site that is not suitable as a building proposition for Irish residents and citizens, yet that is being offered as a solution for the Ukrainians, as Mr. Jordan put it. That is not satisfactory. It is doing untold harm to the integration process and how we deal with refugees on a community level. Would he not agree or has he given that any consideration?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Is the Deputy talking to me?

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am talking to Mr. Jordan. He is the one who offered the site.

Mr. Bob Jordan

The first thing is that we are offering these sites to the Department of integration and the OPW. It is up them to communicate with the local communities and local representatives.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Would money change hands for those sites if they avail of them?

Mr. Bob Jordan

No. They are transferred for a nominal value.

Deputy Verona Murphy

With many sites has that happened?

Mr. Bob Jordan

One so far, in Rathdowney, County Laois, and there are nine other sites under assessment.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I ask Mr. Jordan to reassess them on the basis of what I just said because it is a huge problem.

Mr. Bob Jordan

The assessment is done by the Department of children and the OPW.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I know, but I ask Mr. Jordan to pass on what I have just said in case I do not get an opportunity to do so. I certainly will write to the Department and the OPW. Will Mr. Jordan provide a list of the offered sites to the committee so that I can pinpoint them to the Department?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Can I give a quick bit of context around that?

Deputy Verona Murphy

No. The fact is that no Department is joining the dots. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, is taking the rap for it all but we all have a responsibility for integration, both to our own communities and to the refugees for whom we are responsible. We are not doing ourselves any favours in allowing a far-right element to blame the people for whom we cater in this regard. That is all I need to say on the matter. We all need to look at this a little more from a long-term perspective and stop looking at it in the short term. I do not see where the short term is now. It seems to be a long-term issue and we need to look at it from the point of view of integration, community and living together. That is all I have to say on that.

I want to come back-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

Can I say one sentence on that?

Deputy Verona Murphy

Mr. Doyle should go ahead. He is intent-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is a much broader point that the Deputy is making. This is specifically to do with the volumetrics-style modular homes the OPW was bringing forward as part of just an emergency solution-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

It was a bad idea, unfortunately.

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is not within my remit but it was-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

If it had been doing it all along as a housing plan, I would accept it. However, it is not acceptable to say it is for one sector, refugees, and nobody else. They are generally - excuse the term - in the arsehole of nowhere, which just is not good enough.

Mr. Graham Doyle

It was in the context of just that modular programme.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is the context in which it is being developed and that is what is causing the problem. I want to go back to another matter. I received all the Department's answers to the questions I asked regarding the Peter McVerry Trust. I am not happy with the answers. They are detailed but vague. I asked when the Minister became aware and the answer I got was that the Department was advised in July.

Mr. Graham Doyle

As was the Minister.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Mr. Doyle is categorical that the first the Minister knew about this was in July of this year. The first the Minister knew about any part of it was in July this year.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Yes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Okay.

Mr. Graham Doyle

As soon as we became aware, the Minister was made aware at the same time.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Did Mr. Doyle tell him?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Not me personally.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Who told him?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I think it was Ms Timmons.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is Ms Timmons happy that this was in July of this year?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes, that is correct. There was a sequence of events of which the Deputy has been advised in the letter. Certainly, the letter from the organisation was written to me and obviously I communicated that to the Minister.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I thank Ms Timmons.

I understand the level of complexity in regard to how this structure works but Mr. Doyle is ultimately the principal officer of the Department with financial responsibility. The Department is responsible for funding these organisations, even though it is through the local authority. The funding does not come from the local authority but from the Department. Is that correct? I do not have much time. I just want a "Yes" or "No".

Mr. Graham Doyle

We are responsible for the funding which we provide to the local authorities.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Ultimately, the local authority is responsible to the Department in answering for that funding.

Mr. Graham Doyle

We engage with local authorities on that funding.

Deputy Verona Murphy

If the local authority contacts or does a housing scheme with the Peter McVerry Trust, it is up to it to look at the governance structure and the financial structure. Is that correct?

Mr. Graham Doyle

It engages with it essentially on a contractual basis.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Yes, but the financial element is between the trust and the local authority, not Mr. Doyle's Department.

Mr. Graham Doyle

The financial arrangement is between the NGO and the local authority.

Deputy Verona Murphy

All right. Has emergency funding been supplied to the Peter McVerry Trust?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Yes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

How much?

Mr. Graham Doyle

An amount of €15 million, which has been spoken about publicly, is available in a gradual sense over the next number of months to deal with the issues that arise there.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is Mr. Doyle happy that complies with state aid rules?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I do not think there is a state aid issue with it.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Has he checked it?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Have we checked it in terms of state aid?

Deputy Verona Murphy

Yes.

Mr. Graham Doyle

This is about our having a lot of vulnerable people being serviced by the Peter McVerry Trust. It is critical that the services continue to those people. The right thing to do is to try to ensure that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I could not agree more, but can Mr. Doyle tell me how we have arrived at this situation? Where is the financial oversight to stop it happening with every other NGO or AHB? Where is that coming from? In all Mr. Doyle's answers that I have read, albeit not in the greatest detail because they are not giving me an answer, where is the Department's oversight of that €50 million?.

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is €15 million.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I certainly hope Mr. Doyle is not going to tell me it is with the National Oversight and Audit Commission, NOAC. Did Mr. Doyle say €50 million?

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is €15 million, I am sorry, not €50 million.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Even if it is €15 million, where is the Department's oversight?

Mr. Graham Doyle

On this matter we have put in a structure. We put in an oversight committee in terms of engaging with the trust and understanding the issues that are there. Significant managerial support has been put in, with a very well-respected CEO of a large local authority, and there is a process of engagement. There are 32 conditions to the funding that has been provided and we will be monitoring those and enforcing them.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The €15 million is what we will call a bailout and all that process has been put in place. What was the annual spend to the Peter McVerry Trust from the Department?

Mr. Graham Doyle

There are quite a number of Government-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

How much is it in millions?

Mr. Graham Doyle

-----Departments that provide the-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Just Mr. Doyle's Department.

Mr. Graham Doyle

From just my Department, across all the different local authorities and all the different services, it would be approximately €30 million.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy Murphy.

Deputy Verona Murphy

We had virtually no oversight-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

No.

Deputy Verona Murphy

-----of €30 million and for €15 million of a bailout, we have put an unbelievable structure in place.

Mr. Graham Doyle

No, it is not true we would have no oversight of €30 million. That is across a whole range of programmes where there would be individual oversight in each of those programme areas.

Deputy Verona Murphy

We need to see some of that oversight provided to the committee. It is, as was said, our most vulnerable sector in society who are the victims of things like this.

An Cathaoirleach

We will do that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

We do not yet know if there is a receiver going in. It is strange to see that the Dublin Regional Homeless Executive got PwC to do a report on this and then Peter McVerry got PwC to come in. Does that not seem strange to Mr. Doyle? Should PwC not have said it had a conflict there and somebody else should have been got given that the Dublin Regional Homeless Executive was using PwC?

Mr. Graham Doyle

No, the trust has worked with the DRHE and the Department on how these issues are worked through. It has given us full access or given the DRHE full access and it has co-operated around all these areas, including the putting in of the individual I mentioned to assess the situation. Separately to all that, as the Deputy knows, the AHB regulator and Charities Regulator are carrying out investigations as well.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I appreciate that and we are constrained, Chair-----

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy, you have gone way over time now.

Deputy Verona Murphy

This is such an important issue. We have so many vulnerable people and I am very concerned about how the other charitable organisations view this and if Mr. Doyle has had meetings with them about what has given rise to this. I am worried about a contagion effect or what caused this. Is there any insinuation of fraud here?

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is just a question.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask Mr. Doyle to reply briefly and carefully.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I do not want to comment on any of the causes in relation to this because there are two investigations under way by two regulators. I do not want to impinge on those in any way, shape or form.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Doyle.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Has Mr. Doyle met the other charities?

Mr. Graham Doyle

We have met the other charities, yes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

He has. I thank the Chair.

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy was a little unfair to Rathdowney, I have to say.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Pardon?

An Cathaoirleach

She was a little bit unfair to Rathdowney being in the AH of nowhere. I will have to explain-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Chair, I can assure you it is not that one I am interested in but the other nine.

An Cathaoirleach

One of my relatives-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I know currently-----

An Cathaoirleach

One of my relatives, whom you will know from your previous incarnation in the haulage industry because I met you with him when you were head of the organisation-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I think it is too serious to be frivolous about it.

An Cathaoirleach

If I bump into him over the Christmas period, I am going have to explain myself to him-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I appreciate that.

An Cathaoirleach

-----so I have to pull you up and say you are being unfair to Rathdowney.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I was enjoying that.

Deputy Alan Dillon

How do I follow that? I will focus on accommodation for the homeless, which is subhead A13. We are all aware of the importance of emergency accommodation and related services to support those who are homeless. It is critical service provision. I ask Mr. Doyle about the Department's management of the emergency accommodation for the homeless at present. Has his Department seen a sharp increase in homeless presentations? What level of demand is it seeing at present?

Mr. Graham Doyle

This is a very significant priority issue for the Department. We have seen significant presentations to homeless services over more than the last 12 months. As the Deputy knows, the numbers at the end of October stood at 13,179 people accessing various forms of emergency accommodation. There are just over 9,000 adults and almost 4,000 children associated with that. So far in 2023, we have seen just over 2,500 adult presentations and just over 2,000 adult exits. Obviously, there are families involved in some of those situations. We continue to see significant presentations. Some of them are international, some are people who are coming from other situations and some are people who are becoming homeless having been accommodated here over a number of years. We are seeing significant activity. With respect to the emergency accommodation mentioned at the beginning of the Deputy's question, additional emergency accommodation has been brought.

Deputy Alan Dillon

On the budget allocated to it, for 2022 the allocation in the subhead is €242 million, which is an increase of €48 million on the previous year. What was provided in the Department's budgetary forecast for 2023?

Mr. Graham Doyle

For 2023 the budget was €215 million, but the actual spend is going to be €102 million higher than that, provided through a Supplementary Estimate.

Deputy Alan Dillon

On those who are delivering emergency accommodation, how do the local authorities procure hotel rooms for emergency accommodation? What cost inflation has the Department seen in the delivery of emergency accommodation? What is the average rate being paid by the Department or the local authorities?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I will bring in my colleague Mr. Kelly, who is now the head of homeless services in the Department, to discuss the specifics of that in a moment. The nine regions, the largest of which is obviously the DRHE, are very focused on trying to provide suitable emergency accommodation, particularly own-room-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

I am conscious of time.

Mr. Graham Doyle

-----accommodation and obviously that has been a challenge. On the Deputy's question about inflation, we have of course seen costs increase everywhere. There are an awful lot of different agencies trying to access accommodation out there at the moment-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

I am just conscious of the clock.

Mr. Graham Doyle

-----for various reasons. We are, therefore, trying to avoid competition in those areas driving up costs in that way but obviously there is a huge challenge.

Mr. Kelly might address some of the costs-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

I am interested in the average rates paid by the Department or local authorities for hotel rooms and whether there is a difference between regions.

Mr. David Kelly

There would be. Local authorities do market engagement when they are looking for hotel rooms to supplement their own scheduled accommodation and the family hubs that have been introduced in a lot of areas. What we have seen in recent years is competition for emergency accommodation, including to support the arrival of Ukrainians. The price set by hotels is based on demand, so we are seeing the market price. We do not have an analysis for this year yet but if we compare the expenditure on hotels between 2021 and 2022, it went up from €16 million to €21 million so obviously the pressure on commercial hotels started during last year.

We are seeing a fairly significant increase in the cost of providing emergency accommodation. As numbers go up and scheduled services do not have capacity there can be an additional reliance on the commercial sector. That is part of the reason there was such a significant Supplementary Estimate of €102 million this year. There is no doubt there are pressures on services. I think 1,000 new beds were introduced this year, but there was also a requirement to bring in more emergency accommodation and that includes hotels. At times, when the conditions are right, we get better value there, but at the moment the conditions are not good for getting good value from the commercial hotels.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What is the budget forecast for accommodation for the homeless in 2024?

Mr. David Kelly

The overall budget for homelessness is €242 million. That includes a range of services in local authorities such as prevention and emergency accommodation. The vast bulk of the budget, 80% to 85%, will go towards emergency accommodation but that has to be determined.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Does the Department procure long-term contracts? What is the duration of contracts entered into by the Department?

Mr. David Kelly

It would depend. A lot of the facilities we have introduced in recent years are funded through the capital assistance scheme, CAS, for example, family hubs. We put in capital and develop them. There can be time involved in developing them so at times they are developed through current expenditure. Hotels may be on a short-term contract but there are also longer term contracts for emergency beds where hostels have been set up in private buildings. Contracts can range up to a number of years for some of those. It depends, as there is no set period. It is really up to the local authority based on its projected demand in future years.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Does the Department engage with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth on its procurement of a similar type of accommodation that it is seeking for beneficiaries of temporary international protection? We have seen a change in the offerings for Ukrainians and other refugees coming here in future, and they will only be guaranteed accommodation for 90 days. Will that put added pressure on the Department's services?

Mr. David Kelly

There is fairly significant engagement between the Departments. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth has a very challenging task to provide accommodation. It is not clear if there will be an impact. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, are obviously responsible for providing accommodation and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage is responsible for dealing with homeless services. We do not know if that will have an impact. I am not going to say to Deputy Dillon that it will not have an impact but I know that Department is also working to make sure that it has sufficient accommodation.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I thank Mr. Kelly for his response. A number of rapid-build homes projects were delivered by the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and the OPW. This is perhaps a question for Mr. Jordan in terms of the Housing Agency's remit on the utilisation of modern methods of construction, MMC, technology. What work is the agency doing in this area with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to deliver at scale in this area? It is the way forward. Many people to whom I have spoken feel that it is being underutilised as a measure within the Government's policy and its armoury to deliver at scale. How much of a budget is being allocated to the delivery of rapid-build homes and what work is being done in the background to scale it up?

Mr. Bob Jordan

That is not the remit of the Housing Agency. We have a project and procurement unit of quantity surveyors, QSs, project managers, architects and so on. The team has been growing and it has nearly doubled in size under Housing for All. The idea of the team is to support local authorities with smaller housing sections and smaller approved housing bodies in the efficient delivery of housing projects. Alongside that we have a lead person trying to advance modern methods of constructions. We are engaging with local authorities and encouraging them to use design and build. We are involved in the accelerated delivery programme with local authorities and we are also working with AHBs. It is clear that MMC has been the future for a very long time but it is now coming of age and there is a lot more mainstreaming of it. We are trying to play a supporting role in that. There are about seven local authorities that need our support in that regard and we have worked with up to 60 AHBs in recent years. Our intention is to ensure that MMC is adopted more widely.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I thank Mr. Jordan. In terms of the Department's take on rapid-build technology, I know that my own local authority has expressed an interest in the delivery of multiple housing units using this method. Could Mr. Doyle indicate if the Department sees this as a valid solution to increasing stock and addressing the housing crisis?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Absolutely. The use of MMC is going to be key as we move forward. It is not cheaper at the moment but it is potentially faster and there is less risk attaching to it for somebody engaging. What we are trying to do under Housing for All, which is a whole-of-government approach, is to build up the MMC sector. Now what we are committing at Government level to significant funding for housing each year it could give that sector a sense of confidence that the business will be there for it. For example, Enterprise Ireland has been brought into the mix on this in terms of encouraging those-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

Has the Department delivered housing units using MMC?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Yes.

Deputy Alan Dillon

How many, and what was the budget?

Mr. Graham Doyle

MMC has been a feature for a number of years. I have been in homes that have essentially been constructed off site and assembled on site. It has been there but we do not have the numbers . We have a significant project at the moment. At a wider level there are lots of initiatives to encourage MMC. Aside from the MMC that would be in our normal build programme, Ms Stapleton's team has a programme which was to be 1,500 houses on 25 sites around the country but it is looking more like it will be 1,600 houses on 30 sites where we are specifically going after MMC in the short term.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I welcome everybody. We have frequent interaction on the housing committee so I have an opportunity there to talk about delivery. I thank the witnesses for some of the answers that we have got in that regard.

The Committee of Public Accounts gives us an opportunity to look back at historic spending and it is always concerned about making recommendations about how we can do that better and where things went wrong. The land aggregation scheme, LAG, is a really good example of what many people have called that decade of undersupply in housing. Where a resource was available to the State, over a ten-year period an incredibly insufficient number of homes were built in general, but there was no significant delivery on sites at all on this scheme specifically on the land that was taken. I admit that many of the witnesses may not have been there but I want to parse that period to see what lessons we can learn from it.

The first area of error is the acquisition of the sites themselves by the local authorities. Could Mr. Jordan indicate if any review was done when the sites were acquired or any rationale provided by the local authorities as to why the sites were purchased on an individual site-by-site basis?

Mr. Bob Jordan

Not that I am aware of. What I can say in terms of the lessons learned is that we are now implementing the €125 million land acquisition fund. I want to reassure Deputies that all of the lessons that have been learned under LAG have been translated into that.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Absolutely. The difficulty is that Mr. Jordan is pre-empting my line of questioning. I was leading the witness in a direction. It was not actioned until 2020 or 2021.

Mr. Bob Jordan

I think it is about the historic investment in housing and the availability now.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

No, it is about the State failing to deliver public housing for any significant period between 2010 and 2020.

There is no doubt, as Deputy Ó Cathasaigh said, that we started that decade with serious financial issues. Yet, at some point during that ten-year period you would have to say that there was a tipping point that I am trying to identify. In the ten-year period during which the Housing Agency had the responsibility for those sites - although the local authorities are responsible for delivery - at what point did it say there was a problem and that these sites were not being developed? Was it in 2014 or 2015 or 2016 or 2017 or 2018?

Mr. Bob Jordan

We identified that there was a problem all along. We are engaging with the local authorities.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Okay.

Mr. Bob Jordan

Unfortunately, at one point there was no money available. Clearly, plans come in-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

In which year did the Housing Agency identify that there was not sufficient capital?

Mr. Bob Jordan

If we go back to the review that was done in 2018, it was clear that a lot of sites were still to be developed at that stage. Obviously, since the introduction of Housing for All, there has been capital.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I know. Therefore, insufficient capital was being provided to local authorities to deliver. Is it the case that the Housing Agency understood that in 2018?

Mr. Bob Jordan

The issue was that there was no demand on a lot of these sites at that point in time. There was a big difference when the Land Development Agency came into play and there was a better opportunity to develop some of these sites. That is what has happened since then.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The availability of capital was a key blockage and a number of people have said it. Those were real factors on the ground that were preventing delivery. How were those messages sent up through the system from the local authorities, through the Housing Agency and into the Department? Mr. Jordan mentioned the response to demand, but the housing emergency started to emerge very quickly in 2012, 2013 and 2014. The overhang of supply in Dublin was at 8% in 2010. A normal overhang would be of that percentage. There was never any massive oversupply. The myths we told ourselves about ghost estates, etc., just did not exist in Dublin.

Given the predictions for population growth and everyone could see where the population growth was going - I am giving a lot of grace to the Department and the Housing Agency - between 2010 and 2020, when did the alarm bell ring that we were not building enough houses?

Mr. Bob Jordan

I will have to leave that to colleagues in the Department.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Yes. As the Deputy knows, I was not involved in housing at that time but as we look back, we can see that there capital constraints over a number of years. Many local authorities got out of the business of building houses. All of that had to be restarted. There was much criticism of this Department and Government over time in terms of how quickly it could get all of that moving again. Yet, ultimately, we now find ourselves at a point where, in the last three years we brought about Housing for All. We tried to bring about-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Mr. Graham, I do not wish to revisit that. I know Housing for All and inasmuch as delivery overseen by Ms Timmons and Ms Stapleton is happening, I am not questioning that. I want us to look back to see how we stop this happening again. A demographic bulge was coming at us; that was clear. Sites were available but key tools were needed, capital being one of them. The second one mentioned was the idea of social mix and how we were only able to deliver social housing. The third one was that some of these sites were acquired where there was no demand. Yet, of the 13,000 people who are in emergency accommodation, if you offered them homes in the a-hole of nothing, as was referenced earlier, they would take the option and they would consider it. That is my point. When we did value-for-money audits in 2018 and 2019 on local authority sites that came from Dublin City Council and other areas, local authorities were jumping through hoops to see if a site was value for money. Yet, we are spending €317 million this year alone on emergency accommodation. There was a major failure by the State over a ten-year period to construct homes, to predict a demographic bulge, to provide capital and to provide any value for money at all to the taxpayer. This is because of the significant costs of emergency accommodation. I have not heard any learning of that lesson in this room. I have not heard of any methods to prevent those significant decisions. It could be at a political level; I am not saying it is not. Where is the structural change taking place to prevent that from happening again?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Throughout my interactions with officials across Government and at a political level, I have seen that the desire now is to have a plan for housing going forward that is not cyclical and does not follow that piece. Even if, God forbid, we found ourselves in a significant downturn again, I think we know that we would have to continue providing housing for people. The way things are now structured will go a long way to mitigating the concerns-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

There is no doubt but that the two sovereign funds we are establishing on foot of the budget will go a long way to ensuring we have multi-annual funding even in a cyclical downturn. I accept all that. Yet, within the Department itself, there is the Housing Agency and there are housing authorities in the local authorities. The Department funds the local authorities. Was there sufficient communication between the local authorities and the Department over that period to identify the blockages? Any councillor in the country could have told you in 2016 or 2017 that they were not getting enough money and did not have the ability to deliver mixed sites. Moreover, local authorities did not want to build large-scale social housing developments again because that does not provide a good community. I wonder where the gap is between the local authorities and the Department.

Mr. Graham Doyle

We have probably codified a lot of that now, for example, in the housing needs demand assessment. We are therefore very clear on what is required in a local authority and we formalise that. There is no doubt but that those conversations happened over the years. Now, they are more than conversations because they are codified into what we do. I think that alone is a key development. Yet, a lot of the points the Deputy has raised have fundamentally changed right across what we do. However, nobody in the Department of housing gets up in the morning and wants to under-deliver on any target. We are working very hard-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

There are many people in the Department of housing who did that for a decade.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Well, there are not now, I can tell the Deputy. There is a huge desire now. Obviously, we have structures and requirements that have to do with rent, value for money and all of that-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I have cut Mr. Doyle off a number of times when he raised the issue of delivery. I have to acknowledge that three years ago, when I first sat before the committee, there were multiple housing sites in my area that had huge potential. Almost every site in my constituency is now under development. There are almost 2,200 units in design and will hopefully now move into construction. There is a sea change in terms of delivery. That is why I did not want to explore that topic. I accept that there is progress. I would say it is a political priority issue but that is probably because some of my coalition colleagues who made the mistakes are not here in this committee room. The main issue now is that we are delivering. I want to make sure that the failure of the State that took place at every level over ten years is not repeated. I thank Mr. Doyle for his answers. His answer about the housing needs demand assessment is a key change.

An Cathaoirleach

Of course capacity went down but there was the not-so-insignificant problem that the fecking State was bankrupt.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

There is no doubt about it.

An Cathaoirleach

The money was not there. I remember-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Regardless of that-----

An Cathaoirleach

No, just to say, I came in here in 2011-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Regardless of that, this was over a ten-year period and the State was still going to be here ten years later. The population was only increasing and it was only going to be more expensive to house those people ten years later than it was in that period. It is a long-term issue for the State. I am not talking about any one Government.

An Cathaoirleach

I remember meeting the representatives of the troika in 2012. I was here since 2011. It was a very bleak picture. The Deputy is correct however that the supply collapsed, as did it the capacity to supply, and when that happens, it is difficult to restart it again. I agree with the Deputy on this: in the period between 2016 and 2017, as the economy recovered, it should have been cranking up a bit faster. But we have to ensure-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The reality was that there was no overhang, there was no oversupply and we should have kept building houses.

An Cathaoirleach

There was in certain areas.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Yes, absolutely.

An Cathaoirleach

I can show the Deputy whole estates that were empty. They are now full.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

There never was in Dublin.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes. I know that. It was a geographic thing and I accept that. I agree with the Deputy's point about having the planning there so that in the case of a cyclical downturn, we can still build, as we did the in 1950s and 1970s when things were-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I think we have strayed into the area of commenting on areas of policy.

An Cathaoirleach

Money rules.

I am going to suspend the committee briefly for ten minutes and will resume in ten minutes sharp.

Sitting suspended at 11.10 a.m. and resumed at 11.20 a.m.

An Cathaoirleach

The next committee member in is Deputy Catherine Murphy.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I welcome all the officials. I am looking at the C and AG's opening statement and there is a piece missing in terms of the 13 sites. Do we know what the disposed value of those sites was so as we can have a full overview?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Does the Deputy mean the original value of them or the original cost of them?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What were they disposed for? How much?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

They were transferred on a nugatory basis, I think, a minimal €10.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

In terms of this awful term, "learning lessons", which often we do not do, obviously, the local authority acquired these. According to the C and AG's opening statement, the agency attributes the fact almost half of the site area acquired under the scheme still had no development plans or proposals for delivery of social or affordable housing to issues such as infrastructural constraints, lack of demand for social housing, individual site issues such as flooding risk, topographical unsuitability and zoning constraints. If any organisation should have detail on these issues, it would be the local authorities. That is their bread and butter. Am I correct in saying that they then would have applied for finance for these? Therefore, there was a second overview in terms of looking at what they were looking to buy. There were obviously failures in terms of buying land in locations where there was not a need for social housing to the extent of the land that was bought and all of those other constraints, but they were given the money to do it as well. If we are to learn lessons and there has not been a review of this, are we sure that the systems are in place to make sure that this does not happen again?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I think we are. There are a huge number of checks and balances in place when it comes to purchase of land and applying land for housing, the appropriateness of any land that is purchased, and how soon it could ultimately be built on. It is reasonable to build up a land bank to deliver over a number of years because-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I do not have a problem with that. To be perfectly honest with Mr. Doyle, one of the constraints is not having a land bank in an appropriate location where there is demand. I complete understand that is where it will be more expensive to buy. What risk assessment was done on that acquisition so as we will not see the same kind of difficulties reappearing in another Committee of Public Accounts in ten years' time?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I might ask Ms Stapleton to come in on the process pieces. No doubt there is a lot more process - the need for valuations at various stages and the need for sign-off around all of this. We are in the process now of funding local authorities and working with the Housing Agency around building up the necessary land banks for the next number of years because local authorities are running out of land, particularly suitable land in key areas. So we are starting to build up land again. I might ask Ms Stapleton to come in around the checks and process around that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I ask Ms Stapleton to be succinct because I have a bunch of questions.

Ms Áine Stapleton

Absolutely. I suppose one of the strategic things that has been brought into play since 2022 is the land acquisition fund. That is administered on our behalf by the Housing Agency. We have a very strong governance structure around that. We have an overarching steering group and also a project team that assesses all of the proposals against strict criteria.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

So the Department is confident.

Ms Áine Stapleton

It is very clear and then we have the funding proposals cleared by Housing Agency board. So there are a number of checks and balances now to ensure that those lessons have been learnt from the earlier LAGS scheme.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I will go through a number of different topics. According to Mr. Doyle's opening statement, over 10,000 homes were added to the social housing stock. That does not mean that they were direct build of social housing. It is direct builds, Part 5 and turnkey. Is long-leasing included in that?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Leasing is included in that, yes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

That was to be phased out. I can see, in my own local authority, it has gone from €24 million to €35 million this year. When will it be phased out?

Mr. Graham Doyle

The final year under the original plan was 2025 where there would be 200 units in the figures for that period. Government made the decision to engage in a targeted leasing programme of 1,000 units on the basis of getting particular types of accommodation, particularly in the context of homelessness, particularly, singles, for example.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

That is not what I see.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Okay.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I can see long leases where there are 50 houses in a housing estate and people taken off the housing list. Side-by-side, there would be private owners who would be Part 5. So I am not seeing-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

Sorry, leasing is still happening at the moment but it is being phased out.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is a very expensive way of delivering homes. I keep saying that.

As I say, I will go across a number of topics. In the area of homelessness, the overall allocation is €317 million for 2023. Mr. Kelly stated that approximately 85% of that is a direct spend on accommodation. If there are 13,179 people being accommodated, according to the homeless figures as of October last, that works out on crude division at €20,445 per annum. Given there are 4,000 children included and they will be in family units, I reckon, on crude division, that would cover the cost of a mortgage to the tune of between €380,000 and €400,000. It is a very expensive way of delivering a substandard type of housing that is damaging for children. It is quite extraordinary, when one looks at it from that point of view. It is like throwing money at a problem rather than sorting it out. I accept some of this has to do with housing supply but it is acknowledged that our housing supply is increasing. The targets are too low. The housing supply is increasing but so is our homelessness. The view is that housing supply will sort it out. If that is the only metric, it certainly is not showing any serious returns. In terms of the kind of risks for the future, particularly to children, in homeless accommodation, there will be another cost in other supports later on because of the damage that is being done. Is there any real targeted approach to driving that down because the bulk of people who end up in homelessness are people coming out of the private rented sector who get an eviction notice or cannot sustain a rent?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I have done some of those maths that the Deputy referred to as well, but the whole homeless piece has such a range of complex issues involved. Obviously, it is not the same people. There are people who go through homeless services and, hopefully, out the other side.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

That makes it worse. If one has multiple children going through, it actually makes it worse.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I suppose I am referring more to the adult population in that sense. There are a whole range of services that are provided around homelessness, quite aside from the accommodation piece and in any particular facility.

Many of the exits that we are seeing from homelessness are into social housing, as new social housing is being delivered or into a tenancy. That is the focus. Around the family piece in particular, the provision of homeless hubs over the past number of years has been an improvement in the type of facilities offered to families where that can be done. That has been part of the targeted approach on the family side.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I know one of those family hubs. It is in the town where I live. It is a Dublin Region Homeless Executive hub. I do not see any real surround supports that go along with that when people are outside the jurisdiction of the county or city, that is the acquiring that accommodation. It is still very substandard. I could give specific examples but It is very substandard.

I know there is a cohort of people with very specific needs but the majority of cases of homelessness are coming out of the private rented sector. The lack of an eviction ban has added to the problem. We can see something like an 18% increase year-on-year in the number of people becoming homeless. I do not see a targeted approach. It is a very expensive way of delivering what I would regard as really substandard accommodation.

Regarding the direct builds, some of those would be from AHBs and others from local authorities. What constraints on direct builds do the local authorities and AHBs mention?

Mr. Graham Doyle

We spend a lot of time talking to local authorities about direct builds and trying to encourage more of their own projects to be brought forward. Building back up the capacity over the past number of years and bringing through a pipeline of projects has been the main thing. In the city context where a lot of brownfield work is required some of those projects are a little bit more complex. However, overall across the country it has been a matter of building back up the capacity in the in the housing teams across the local authorities. As I mentioned earlier, in the past year, we have sanctioned 250 posts across the system to help them build capacity. However, we have to be mindful of getting the right skills when we recruit.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Was 250 the number that was requested or was it higher?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I think 250 was the number requested.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

All Oireachtas Members will have a briefing with their relevant local authority on issues such as affordable housing, delivery of turnkey, council owned land, Part V, LDA and cost rental. My local authority made a request for seven staff and received three.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Yes, what was given on affordable was not the full ask. We engage with our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform around the asks across the system. There was a certain amount of permission and sanction given on the affordable side for additional posts. It was not the full ask but there is a commitment to go back and look at that as people develop projects and start bringing them forward.

An Cathaoirleach

The official from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform might answer this question. What was the problem? Was there not a demand for affordable housing? Deputy Murphy has outlined the issue of staff. There has not been one provided yet for the affordable housing scheme in County Laois. It is only being advertised now. Was it the view of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform that we did not need affordable housing?

Ms Jenny Connors

It is a matter for the Accounting Officer to provide funding to the various areas. I am not aware of the sanction request that has been mentioned. I will follow up on that and get back to the committee.

An Cathaoirleach

WIll Mr. Doyle tell the committee what happened? Was the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform dictating how many posts would be filled?

Mr. Graham Doyle

In fairness to Ms Connors, this precedes her time in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. Ms Timmons dealt with this specifically.

Ms Caroline Timmons

I think we were asked for 140 posts and that is what we sought sanction for at the time. We had a good interaction with our colleagues in Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform who wanted to do it on a phased basis. I think we got sanction for 60 or 70 posts at the time, most of which are in place now. We were then asked to come back at a later stage after the impact of the initial sanction had been assessed with a view to providing further resources.

We have been engaging this week with our housing delivery co-ordination office and the County and City Management Association, CCMA, to consider what the next ask will be. It may be slightly more than the balance of the 144. We will be re-engaging with our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform over the next month on that basis.

An Cathaoirleach

Is there an ambition to drive on the affordable housing scheme? I am not referring to the first home scheme because that is not affordable housing.

Ms Caroline Timmons

The Chair is referring to Kilminchy and An Lochán, which are the first ones in County Laois. That has been as a result of putting affordable housing resources in there. There is a very clear interaction. Those two schemes will produce more next year. We are only seeing the first tranche at the moment. Since we have put the resources in place, we can see that it is pushing the programme on.

An Cathaoirleach

We will see a demand for it once it is advertised.

I want to go back to the issue of the underspend for a moment. Mr. Doyle, as the Accounting Officer, has the job to forecast the budgets, ensure the budget is spent and that the programmes are delivered. In preparation for today's meeting, I went through the documentation. The underspend last year was more than €500 million. That is quite substantial in the middle of a housing crisis. I understand there will be bottlenecks and it will be some problems in delivery but some of these stick out.

The programme for homelessness was the only one that spent in excess of what was budgeted for last year. The budget was €193 million and €242 million was spent, which is a substantial amount. However, in other areas it is a different story. Under mortgage to rent, €23 million was allocated but the spend was just €7.6 million. Only a quarter of the budget was spent. I get regular contacts from constituents trying to access that scheme. I was not aware that only a quarter of the budget was being spent. That is a substantial underspend.

Under housing for people with disability and older people, €2.7 million was allocated but only €1.1 million spent. For energy efficiency, €85 million was allocated but only €64 million was spent. For the shared ownership subsidy, €3 million was allocated but only €1.4 million was spent. For affordable housing, €60 million was allocated and only €8.8 million was spent the last year. For the Croí Cónaithe city scheme, €450 million has been allocated over a number of years. The budget last year was €50 million and an incredible €1.4 million was spent on it. That is just over 2% of the budget. Can Mr. Doyle explain these figures? We are in the middle of a housing crisis. We are all screaming for money to put into housing. Some might say that we could put even more money into some of these areas. It is complete under delivery right across the board by his Department. I am not asking that money be thrown around and spent badly.

The only place where the Department is achieving the targets of actually spending the budget, in fact overspending it, is in homelessness. Every other programme is underspent. As the Accounting Officer, Mr. Doyle mentioned it is complex. Has the whole thing gotten too complex and is there too much bureaucracy? What is going on?

Mr. Graham Doyle

The Government has provided very significant funding under the NDP and Housing for All. For a long time the challenge being put to the Department was that not enough funding was being provided. There are other bottlenecks in the system. Other things slow progress down and there were a lot of those last year.

An Cathaoirleach

I want to ask about the Croí Cónaithe city scheme because Mr. Doyle referenced earlier that some of the bottlenecks and some of the problems were caused by the fact that the Department is trying to restart a building industry that was closed down during the crash and for a bit during Covid-19 also. We are a long way out of that now. The houses under the Croí Cónaithe city scheme are already built.

Mr. Graham Doyle

No, they are not.

An Cathaoirleach

No, okay.

Mr. Graham Doyle

With Croí Cónaithe there is a very specific reason-----

An Cathaoirleach

How does Mr. Doyle explain the fact that 97% of the budget was not spent on that?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Can I answer the broader question first and then come back to the Croí Cónaithe question?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, please.

Mr. Graham Doyle

The capital allocations particularly for the Department were set in early 2021. Obviously the construction shutdowns and the inflation, in particular, that hit in the early part of 2022 were absolutely unprecedented. I know we have had this conversation with this committee a number of times. Last year we were budgeting for 9,000 new-build social homes, for example. It was a 7,500 output which was substantially more than had been delivered in previous years but not at the stretched target.

An Cathaoirleach

And tell me-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

Every house at €300,000 or €400,000 builds up rather quickly. The Department has been able to carry forward a lot of the capital spend, not all of it, which was spent this year and we will see that spend catch up. Croí Cónaithe is a very different and specific issue. Some programmes over-delivered; for example the CAS over-delivered and had to have additional funding moved across to it in order to meet that.

An Cathaoirleach

Local authorities built 1,666 houses last year according to the figures supplied by Mr. Doyle to this committee. In the 1970s the local authorities were building 7,000 and 8,000 houses. In the 1930s they were building 7,000, 8,000 and 9,000 houses. What I am trying to understand, for the life of me - and I know we are using different methods and I am in favour of that, AHBs etc. - is what is happening between the Department and the local authorities. The staff are well back up in the local authorities. Something is happening in terms of a budget is being provided. The local authorities do not seem to have the capacity. I will go through the figures for quarter 3 this year in a few minutes. They were released yesterday and I have them in front of me. Between the Department and the local authorities we seem to be incapable of getting back to the capacity we were at in the 1970s. We are now heading into the year 2024. I am asking Mr. Doyle, as head of the Department, what the breaks are and why that is not happening.

Mr. Graham Doyle

What we have seen in the last couple of years with the significant additional capital announced and committed is the local authorities are now trying to build that pipeline of their own projects as well as delivering through others such as the AHBs. Under the housing delivery action plans published by the local authorities we can see those new schemes being brought forward. The schemes are not as early as we would like and they are possibly over a number of years.

An Cathaoirleach

Some local authorities built no houses. None, according to the figures.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Sure.

An Cathaoirleach

Was a phone call made to the county manager? The area I am in has a fairly good housing programme and it can be seen in the land aggregation scheme, LAGS, from the documentation supplied that a lot of the sites are active and I am familiar with a lot of them. However, four local authorities did not build any houses.

Mr. Graham Doyle

In the first three quarters.

An Cathaoirleach

No, in 2022. They built no houses themselves. No homes. Did anybody inform the county manager-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

In terms of own-build.

An Cathaoirleach

-----and say-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

In fairness some of those local authorities are bringing forward programmes this year. It is not that I am defending any of that. All the Department can do is try to work with them but we are constantly meeting with them, the Minister is meeting with them.

An Cathaoirleach

No, the question I am asking Mr. Doyle to answer is whether - given that by the second half of 2022 from the list Mr. Doyle supplied helpfully to the committee, those four local authorities could be seen - any official from Mr. Doyle's Department phoned them to ask: "Hey guys, what is happening down there? Why are there no schemes coming onstream there? Why have you not built any houses? Do you have sites?". Some of those have sites under the LAGS so the issue is not sites. A budget has been provided so there is money. I would argue that if we could put more budget into it, we should do it. There is a reasonable budget there for it. What is happening?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Of course those conversations happen.

An Cathaoirleach

Is there a principal officer, assistant secretary general or somebody who phones them up?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Of course those conversations happen. It does not just happen at principal officer level. The Minister speaks to these people himself in terms of trying to encourage delivery across the local authority space. I will quickly bring in Ms Stapleton because she deals with the local authorities, principally, on these issues.

An Cathaoirleach

Please.

Ms Áine Stapleton

It is a very good point and we have discussed the concern around the proportion of own-build construction at both the local authority and AHB level at this committee before. The policy objective is very much to bring that up. We are doing a lot of work with those local authorities in terms of any barriers or hurdles that might be impacting on the acceleration of their programmes. The resources that have been given and are now in place are really instrumental. We also have a number of those local authorities in the accelerated delivery programme and using modern methods of construction which I hope would accelerate delivery. There are quarterly technical meetings with the team on my side and each local authority that explore these issues.

An Cathaoirleach

I appreciate that Ms Stapleton but is it not the case that in the decades when we were able to deliver large numbers of houses through local authorities that the local authorities had more latitude and autonomy? The councillors, who are the local authorities in those areas, from my experience the councillors from all parties - because there is pressure on them locally - will try to get homes built as quickly as possible and where they are needed. The councillors are very good at identifying where they are needed because it can be seen from the monthly reports from the manager where the waiting lists are going, etc. Is it not the case we need to give them more freedom and trust them a little? We have good quality engineers in local authorities and good quality councillors and housing officials. Could the Department look at ways of freeing up the autonomy? Ms Stapleton mentioned quarterly meetings about design. At one stage some of the best homes I saw were designed by a technician. They were not even designed by an engineer or somebody at that grade. I can assure Ms Stapleton that they withstood the test of time.

Ms Áine Stapleton

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Is it not the case overall, Mr. Doyle, that there is a point that is being missed in terms of freeing up local authorities and to trust them to be able to build?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I will let Ms Stapleton in on that as well. I do not necessarily see that as being the issue right now around the local authorities.

An Cathaoirleach

Look at the figures.

Mr. Graham Doyle

The Department has given them an awful lot of freedom. If freedom is the point-----

An Cathaoirleach

There were 1,666 houses-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

I understand all of that, but if freedom is the point-----

An Cathaoirleach

-----built by local authorities last year. That is terrible.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Yes, but if freedom is the point-----

An Cathaoirleach

Four local authorities built none.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I have a list I would be very happy to give the Chair of 15 to 20 interventions the Department made to make it easier for local authorities to deliver.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Freedom was the point I was responding to.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask Mr. Doyle to make another list, a new year's resolution.

Mr. Graham Doyle

On the 1970s versus now point-----

An Cathaoirleach

I would ask Mr. Doyle to come up with another 15.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Sorry?

An Cathaoirleach

I would ask Mr. Doyle to come up with another 15.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Sure.

An Cathaoirleach

I am saying this seriously.

Mr. Graham Doyle

We are always coming up with them, genuinely.

An Cathaoirleach

Can I move on to the spend for a second and the targets? The quarter 2 figures show that on the affordable housing scheme there were just 22 actual affordable homes provided in the first six months. The quarter 3 figures that came out yesterday show 262 affordable homes were provided in the State in the first three quarters of this year. I will do a quick calculation. That is roughly 7%. We have reached 7% of the target of 3,500 affordable homes in the first nine months of this year. Those are the figures that were released yesterday by the Department. In the area of social housing 2,642 or 29% of the target was reached at the end of quarter 3.

You are not even coming near 50% of the target. Only 7% of the affordable homes target was reached. That is an appalling record. I am not being smart here, but that jumps off the page at me.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Of course it does but the pattern around delivery is wildly skewed towards the last quarter and has been for many years.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Mr. Doyle mean to tell me that he is going to come up with 93%-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

No, I am not saying that.

An Cathaoirleach

Hold on, let me finish. Expecting 93% in the last three months of this year is the same as me hoping for Santa Claus to come.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I know the Chair is excluding the first home scheme, in particular, on the affordable side.

An Cathaoirleach

I am talking about affordable homes. The first home scheme is a loan with a tax rebate that-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

The first home scheme operates in exactly the same way as the affordable purchase scheme in the local authorities. There is an equity stake in both cases. They operate in exactly the same way.

An Cathaoirleach

I am talking about builds of affordable homes.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I understand that. With regard to 29% of the social housing target having been reached in the first three quarters, it is always the case that the delivery comes in at the end, in the last quarter. In fact, a lot comes in as late as December. The social housing numbers will be significantly up on last year at the end of this year, even though 29% of the target was met in the first three quarters of the year. It is quite the phenomenon but year after year, the pattern shows delivery in the final quarter of the year. Ms Timmons may talk about affordable housing more generally in terms of the schemes and the building up of the pipelines, in addition to delivery in respect of those, but there is no doubt that the pattern concerning when units are delivered, counted and paid for is to be seen primarily at the end of the year. As I said in my opening statement on concerns over spending, at this point of the year we are €702 million in capital ahead of where we were at this point last year. You can see that happening in the final quarter of the year.

An Cathaoirleach

A lot of that would be inflation, which is fair enough, but the big-ticket item from last year's expenditure is that there is under-expenditure right across the programmes. Owing to that, there is an overspend in housing. The outturn turned out to be €50 million more than anticipated. What was budgeted for was €50 million more. There was €193 million allocated and the outturn was €242 million; however, because the other housing programmes are underperforming, here we are with homelessness. We are trying to shore up homelessness by firing money at hotels and private accommodation providers. That is what is happening. It is a big failure.

Mr. Graham Doyle

We are trying to build social housing. Over 10,000 new social housing units were added to the stock last year.

An Cathaoirleach

Some of them involve leasing. A lot of them are welcome, which I accept, but the big fall-down concerns the provision of local authority housing. I am easy about how it is provided, whether it is by AHBs, turnkey arrangements or otherwise, but the big failure is in addressing the capacity of the 31 local authorities. The Department has a substantial staff and a big budget but is not delivering on the local authority housing programme. There is a failure in this regard. If there is a failure in local authorities, officials need to communicate with the councillors in each area. The councillors I meet all the time are always anxious to push on the housing programmes. Mr. Doyle knows that from meeting representatives of AILG. We have to do better than this next year. I ask Mr. Doyle to look into this again. I welcome the fact that the Department has taken 15-plus measures to try to reduce the delay in local authority delivery. I ask Mr. Doyle and his officials to revisit this in the new year to try to give the programme a new sense of purpose.

I will now let members back in the second round. They have five minutes each. We will begin with Deputy Ó Cathasaigh.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I had to pop out for another engagement, so I apologise if there is any duplication. I want to talk about HAP, if it has not already been spoken about. It is a case of the old joke about how you get to Cahersiveen. The punchline is, "I would not start from here." I certainly would not start from here with HAP, but it is clearly not something we can just bring an end to. The expenditure this year was over half a billion euro. It involves a really substantial transfer of public moneys to private landlords or landowners. Do we know how much the State has paid for it since its instigation in 2014? I refer to both HAP and RAS.

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is considerable, obviously. It has been ramped up since 2014. I do not have the figures going back that many years in front of me, but the figure is obviously considerable.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

We are accommodating people who need accommodation but, at the end of the day, the State has nothing for the investment. Essentially, we do not retain anything.

The Irish Times reports that one fifth of HAP tenancies are in the hands of large landlords. Could Mr. Doyle unpack this a little for me? When The Irish Times describes large landlords, how many units is it talking about? Also, how many landlords are we talking about?

Mr. Graham Doyle

It means 20% with over 50 properties. As I understand it, 49% – call it 50% – have one or two properties and the remaining 30% are somewhere in the middle in terms of the numbers The Irish Times was quoting. So, 50% of landlords engaged with the HAP scheme have one or two properties, and 20% have more than 50 properties. The number of landlords is down a little. At the midyear point of this year, about 31,000 active landlords were in the HAP scheme.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Would Mr. Doyle know how many landlords have 50-plus units?

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is 20%, so presumably-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

That is 20% of the properties, not 20% of the landlords.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Sorry, it is 20% of the properties. The Deputy is right. I do not have the figure here but I will try to get it for the Deputy. I know it is possible to get it.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

On the basis of a back-of-the-envelope calculation, I believe one fifth of the properties probably does not correspond with one fifth of the expenditure because the preponderance of those properties probably is in the likes of Dublin and Cork, where the average rent is probably higher. If we hone in on the large landlords, do we know how many individuals or institutions we are giving money to? If I divide the expenditure by five, I get €100 million, which is eye-watering. However, I suspect, on the basis of the rental profile of the properties, the expenditure related to them is more than €100 million.

Mr. Graham Doyle

There are endless statistics available on the HAP scheme because of the amount of expenditure. We can get some of those for the Deputy.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

It is really substantial expenditure. I am aware that the Comptroller and Auditor General has examined this, in chapter 8 of the 2020 annual report. Some issues were raised around key performance indicators. What we are focusing on with regard to the HAP scheme is the number of new tenancies, apparently. There was a series of recommendations in the report. Can Mr. Doyle outline the work done within the Department to respond to the report? In particular, is the Department seeking to amend the key performance indicators for the HAP scheme to address the issues?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I think a lot of those changes have been made. There is a HAP governance oversight group that considered all the recommendations made by the Comptroller and Auditor General and his team. I have not looked at this recently but I know we did engage on it previously, particularly when we were dealing specifically with the chapter here at the committee. It was the case that most, if not all, of the recommendations had been implemented, including more performance metrics around HAP.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I could ask ten more questions on that but want to talk about LIHAF. The estimated provision was €32 million and the outturn was €17 million. This is all about trying to unlock infrastructure. We touched on this when talking about the land aggregation scheme and the fact that some sites are difficult to develop because of infrastructural blockages. The fund is aimed at trying to explode the bottlenecks, and we are massively under profile in terms of expenditure. I find this really frustrating because the towns and villages affected are very often the ones I find throughout my constituency that want to build on the small housing estate but find there is no headroom within the water infrastructure, for example. Why are we not getting more serious about making the LIHAF expenditure behave according to profile?

Mr. Graham Doyle

In addition to LIHAF, the affordable housing fund also provides some infrastructure.

I ask Ms Timmons to respond because she is very familiar with it.

Ms Caroline Timmons

LIHAF is a programme that opened in 2016 and closed in 2017 with 30 projects approved under it. Those projects have been working their way through since then. Of the 30, six will not proceed for various reasons, including not getting the requisite permissions to move ahead. Twelve of the remainder have completed, while nine are at construction or tender approved and those are in areas like Dún Laoghaire, Cork, Limerick, Louth and Westmeath. Those are all proceeding. The reason the profile tended to be under last year is it is hard to predict when the tender stages might come to fruition and when the bills will come into the Department from the local authority. They have encountered issues through the years in this programme, such as judicial reviews, which affected a number of the projects, and difficult sites to progress, on top of capital issues. Moving the sites has proved difficult. That said, we are pleased with the progress made with the final projects. We can see clear pathways on the ones in construction. The final big one is Maynooth, which we need to see more progress on. We are working intensively with the local authorities to ensure those projects get over the line. We are happy there is a renewed focus on it. They have been seeking additional funding over the years. The cost of construction has also increased. We are pleased the Government approved additional funding this week to assist with some of the increases in construction costs.

Deputy Colm Burke

I want to go back to the issue I raised earlier. It is not on the agenda for today but is an important issue. We have many housing estates, some built more than 20 years ago, which local authorities will not take in charge. Roads and footpaths are in poor condition. The reason local authorities will not take them in charge is Irish Water has not taken in charge the sewage treatment plants and says it will not do so because the plants are not up to standards. I understand there are about 500 of them around the country built from around 1998 to 2008 or 2010. What programme in the Department deals with this issue? There was funding of about €3.5 million last year but it is totally inadequate. As a result, estates are not taken in charge, there is wear and tear and, 20 years on, the local authority is not prepared to get involved. The other problem is local authorities did not draw down the bonds in many cases. Even if they draw them down at this stage, the amount of money available is way too small.

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is around 500. The number I had was 450-----

Deputy Colm Burke

There are 50 alone in County Cork.

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is around 450 with just over 7,500 houses. Over a quarter are operated and maintained by the local authorities. There was the multiannual developer-provided infrastructure, DPI, resolution programme in 2019. Funding has been applied to that over time and more will, I am sure, be applied to it. The Deputy described it as inadequate and there were issues relating to the bridge in terms of local authorities versus Irish Water. There have been recent developments and engagement between the two. From 1 January Irish Water will be responsible for the DPI programme. The Department will engage with Irish Water on assisting in and planning for bringing that forward. In 2022 the allocation was €7 million but very little of that was spent. We need to drive that spend through Irish Water as we go forward. If the Deputy would like a more detailed response I can come back to him.

Deputy Colm Burke

Whether it is 450 or 500, it is still-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

Sorry, I did not mean to quibble with the number.

Deputy Colm Burke

It is still a very big number.

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is.

Deputy Colm Burke

Can the Department not set out a clear plan with Irish Water whereby we have a target for each year of getting 40 or 50 off the system and taking them in charge? The estates are left there. Local authorities will not touch them. We are 20 years on in many of those housing estates and people are getting frustrated. They pay property tax and feel they get nothing back.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I am hopeful about the latest developments, which I only became aware of this morning because the water team has been dealing with this issue. I am hopeful that change will result in an acceleration around this and in the spend under the NDP for that programme. I am happy to come back to the Deputy on that.

Deputy Colm Burke

Mr. Doyle might come back to me in the new year with a report and plan on dealing with this.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I will come back to the Deputy on developments around that. There seems to be work going on at the moment and a change taking place from the beginning of next year.

Deputy Colm Burke

Regarding taking charge of estates by local authorities where there is not a problem with Irish Water or an excuse, again the programme by local authorities seems to be going at a snail’s pace. They say they need to upgrade the estates before taking them in charge. What is the plan for that over the next two to three years?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I have not familiarised myself with programme A for this morning but am happy to come back on it. It is just not at the top of my head at the moment.

Deputy Colm Burke

Thanks very much.

An Cathaoirleach

Will Mr. Doyle include an up-to-date report on what is happening with The Limekiln in Clogh, County Laois? Related to the point Deputy Burke made, this is a fairly significant problem. It is a small estate. A reed bed system was put in. It was totally sustainable. It is working and there have been no problems. It is heading towards the end of its second decade in operation but for some reason Irish Water are holding up the taking in charge of it. Will Mr. Doyle shed some light on-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

Did we talk about that project the last day with Irish Water? We will come back on it.

An Cathaoirleach

I raised it but I want an up-to-date report. Somebody at Mr. Doyle’s level needs to make a call on Irish Water. The Department has the two arms of the State involved, namely, Irish Water and the housing programme, and Mr. Doyle can make a call on it.

Mr. Graham Doyle

You are overestimating my powers, Chairman.

An Cathaoirleach

I do not want you to answer now because it would be unfair for me to expect that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Does the Department expect to surrender any money from the housing budget, particularly the capital budget this year?

Mr. Graham Doyle

There was a surrender last year of substance. I do not believe there will be a substantial surrender this year. When you are trying to land a budget on the day, there will always be small amounts-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I know, but the substantial amounts are what I am getting at. In terms of the local authority loan, we have a pretty good idea of what people are looking for because they come to us looking for things. The approval rate for applications underwritten in October was 61%. Do we know what the drawdown of that 61% is? What is the assessment of the drawdowns?

Ms Caroline Timmons

The local authority home loan has been going in one form or another, from the Rebuilding Ireland home loan to the local authority home loan, since 2018. Last year we had 626 issued and there was drawdown of €101 million. In the first half of 2023-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What is the percentage drawn down?

Ms Caroline Timmons

As to the amount approved versus the amount drawn down, I do not have that with me but I will find out and do a note.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

With house price increases, sometimes people cannot proceed with a purchase. Though there have been changes to the scheme, it would be low in some parts of the country. It would be difficult to get a house for €340,000 in the Dublin region, for example.

Ms Caroline Timmons

We looked at the income limits earlier this year for that specific reason.

We have increased them up to €85,000 joint and €70,000 single. We were looking at that particular issue. If it needs to be looked at again, obviously, it can be kept under review.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It has to be sustainable, and people have to be able to pay the loan back.

With regard to the flow of people through homelessness, Mr. Doyle made the point that the 13,179 in October are not the same people. Some of them would be because some of people would be two or three years in homelessness. Is a record kept of the actual number and particularly the number of children? Adverse childhood experiences are a known fact now, and homelessness is one of those adverse childhood experiences. It does not mean that someone has to be 12 months in homelessness for it to be an adverse childhood experience. There would be known risks into the future under performance in terms of education. Criminal activity later on can be a feature where there are multiple instances. Is there a known number, particularly of children, who are flowing through homelessness annually?

Mr. Graham Doyle

We know the number of people who present each year and the number of people who exit. There are statistics around all of that. We also know broadly how long somebody has been classified as homeless and the different cohorts of it.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Could Mr. Doyle give us a note on that?

Mr. Graham Doyle

In terms of some of those numbers, we can do that, Mr. Kelly, can we not?

Mr. David Kelly

We publish details and then we have exits in the quarterly progress reports. We can arrange for the latest one to be sent on to the Deputy.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Okay. Pyrite is something I keep a bit of an eye on. I cannot think of pyrite without thinking of the late Shane McEntee, who some of us worked very closely with to try to get that scheme up and running. We can see the progress that has been made over the years. There were estimates and we have a good idea of the numbers now. When does Mr. Jordan expect that scheme to conclude? If it is going to conclude, where a home is presenting with or where there is known to be pyrite, but it is not severe enough to qualify for remediation, for example, people will presumably be captured in that and will not be excluded from remediation at a later date.

Mr. Bob Jordan

The scheme is coming up to its tenth anniversary in February of next year. Approximately 3,300 applications have been received, of which 2,800 have been approved, and 2,700 homes have been remediated at a cost of approximately €119 million to the Exchequer. However, there is no doubt that the number of applications is rapidly dwindling. This year, we got-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The original estimate was way in excess of 3,300.

Mr. Bob Jordan

The original estimate was around 10,000 so that has not come to pass. The number of applications is dwindling. It is 107 this year and we are expecting about 50 next year. Clearly, this scheme is coming to a point where there may be little or no obligations in the future. I will hand over to my colleague, Mr. Ó Coigligh, to talk about that.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

I thank the Deputy. One of the principles of the operation of the scheme is that there needs to be demonstration of damage. We know that pyrite may be present but may not actually cause damage. When the scheme comes to its natural end, we will need to consider some kind of residual process to deal with cases that may arise into the future. That is certainly very much on our plans to do that. That is part of the wind down. That will probably take a year or two before we arrive on a particular approach. However, it will also be part of the overall development of our policy in this area with regard to defective concrete blocks, DCB, and also apartment defects as to how we deal with all these issues in the long term. That is definitely on our radar, however.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Okay. I thank the witnesses. I will make one further point. We talk about local authorities not directly building. We get responses in the Dáil to the effect that 10,000 homes have been delivered into the housing stock. The concern we have is that there is one line of delivery that is probably underperforming, and we must ask what blockages are there. Sometimes there can be a lot of houses in one local authority one year and none the next year because it is a big scheme or something like that. We can get a kind of distorted view and I accept that. However, if I use my own local authority, for example, in 2022, the council met its targets. We know there were no houses directly built in Kildare last year by the local authority that were on that list. However, it met the targets in terms of builds for 370, and the long-term leasing was 262. It paints a very different picture. When 10,000 are added, the public presumption is that the local authorities are building, but they are not. Some of those are turnkey and some are part 5. We need them all. However, the underdelivery of direct builds is really the point several of us feel really needs to have a magnifying glass on it about what the impediments are.

Mr. Graham Doyle

There is no argument from this side of the table that we want to see local authority direct build projects coming forward. As the Deputy said, we need everything. That is absolutely the case. We have been focusing hugely on this. We are seeing some movement, but we are not seeing enough. We bring local authorities in. For example, one of our working streams under Housing for All is the public service delivery working group. We bring in local authorities or sample local authorities in some of the bigger ones into that. As they show us their programmes and talk about the issues, we can see that over the last number of years since Housing for All was brought about, they are now trying to build up those projects. We can see that it is sort of back-ended delivery, which is not exactly what we want to see, but at least it looks to us like the houses are coming. They have been building up to that. It has not been as quick as we would like. Some local authorities have done very well. Others have certain challenges they are trying to work with us to overcome. However, there is absolute focus on trying to get local authority direct build up.

An Cathaoirleach

Can we go back to that issue of speeding up supply for a moment? Based on what we have seen for the first two quarters of the year, the Department has struggled to hit 1,666 builds by the local authority. One of the things that strikes me with the multitude of schemes, and I am sure it is the same with the Department, is that locally, they increase that in the local authorities, which we can see in housing departments. It looks well populated compared to, we will say, a number of years ago, but they are tied up in all these schemes. They are tied up administering. Both technical and clerical staff are tied up in terms of dealing with the multitude of schemes. They are dealing with a number of issues, although I cannot speak for all of them. The picture I have across some local authorities is that a number of people are dealing directly with the builds, which they have to. I am not against turnkey homes. The problem is that it is pulling homes out of the private sector, particularly starter homes that people would-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

Not as much as used to be the case.

An Cathaoirleach

That is the other reason for trying to increase what the local authorities are doing directly. That might be one are the Department might want to look at. Another area, and Mr. Doyle and I have had a few conversations about this, is the design. Mr. Doyle did give a response with regard to standardised design in the correspondence we got back from the Department recently. In that, Mr. Doyle said the Department has seen very positive responses, with many new projects using the Design Manual for Quality Housing standard design. I know what he means by that because he has explained it to me and the committee many times. I would expect that. A review was then carried out. The Social Housing Design, Approval and Delivery: Process and Procedures Review 2017 recommended that "the promotion of optional standard internal layout type templates should be advanced in order to realise potential benefits in terms of resourcing at design stage and the production of components and build packages at production stage." It is a bit of a mouthful. However, the reply from the Department stated that "This review did not make any recommendation in respect of standard design for the whole build as it was understood that this would raise a large range of practical, contractual, legal and potentially procurement issues, quite apart from concerns with regard to the potential for a monotonous public realm, contrary to government policy to promote quality in the built environment."

To break down what that means in plain English, it is about not having all houses looking the same or a monotonous public realm. As I said previously to the officials, a lot of the big builders in the State are using the very same template for housing design on multiple sites in different locations. The number of changes they make is minimal. They have no problem with that. Surely to God, in the middle of a housing crisis, no councillor and nobody in the Dáil would argue too much with the officials if houses were a little monotonous looking. In other words, the person in Wexford could live in a house that does not look too dissimilar from one in Sligo.

On external works, the Department went on to state in its reply that it can be appreciated that the design of external works is entirely site specific and does not readily admit to standardisation. It does not explain why. It just says that every site configuration, and site levels, involve different lengths of roads, different pavement widths and different slopes of roads. However, the gradient of the roads, etc., has nothing to do with design. That is a waffly answer. The reply further states that underground services run in different directions on different sites - of course they will - and will differ in design, for instance, different sizes of sewer pipes, etc., to suit the number of dwellings being served. That is true of every private site, however. That is a cop-out. I read the reply very carefully yesterday because I am trying to understand the resistance to having similar plans. I do not get it.

I say this in a constructive way. That lengthy response from the Department is the most comprehensive written response we have got so far on this. I do not see a block to using more standardised design, not alone to speed up delivery but to reduce cost, because there is the not insignificant matter of the 11% plus on architectural fees that I am being told by senior officials is being spent on architects. I am saying this in terms of speeding up-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

I understand.

An Cathaoirleach

-----supply and reducing costs. From the committee's point of view, I have to raise this with officials.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I might bring Ms Stapleton in on this in a moment, as she has looked at a lot of the national building control, NBC, stuff. One very important point on this is that the biggest benefit we get from standardisation is standardisation of the layouts. That is where you speed up-----

An Cathaoirleach

It is important. I agree.

Mr. Graham Doyle

-----the design process to the greatest extent. How the house looks from the outside is a smaller element of that. There are issues. I read that note when it was being prepared. I know there was a piece, for example, about which direction the houses on a particular street go, light, and all of those things in terms of how the external piece is dealt with. Fine, you can argue with a lot of that, as I am sure the Chair will, but the main benefit we get, and we have had significant benefits from the standardised layouts, is that it makes the thing come together quickly.

An Cathaoirleach

I am asking the Department to go a step further. On layout and light, the officials know, and I have said this to them previously, that if there is a four-acre site where 40 houses are to be built, that is where the design is done as regards the layout of the site. The layout of the site has to be a blank canvas. I understand that. For example, you try to have as many windows as possible south facing. Now, with solar panels, we want to have houses angled in a certain way to try to capture the maximum amount of sun. I understand all of that, and getting the layout of roads and all that. That is why clever engineers are employed in local authorities. I welcome the information in the reply as it gives an understanding of the officials' thinking, but none of that precludes a standardised design.

As I said previously, the external wrap can look different. There can be some brick in the external texture of the house or whatever. You can ask any factory owner; if you want to produce something, you mass produce.

Mr. Graham Doyle

But that is-----

An Cathaoirleach

Ask the people who make any product on the planet. You mass produce when you want to speed up delivery and reduce costs. I am not advocating reduced standards. The officials know that. I want delivery of the highest A-rated homes and the provision of good homes to continue. I am saying we have to mass produce.

Mr. Graham Doyle

In bringing about that-----

An Cathaoirleach

It is going half way.

Mr. Graham Doyle

-----design manual, that allows mass production. The ability to construct off site is feeding into the modern methods of construction, MCC. Will Ms Stapleton have a go at this for me-----

An Cathaoirleach

You are going halfway.

Mr. Graham Doyle

-----because the Chairman and I are at this for a long time.

An Cathaoirleach

You are going halfway. I am asking the Department to go the whole way. We have a housing crisis. My previous contribution was on the underspend. The only area where there is an overspend is in providing homeless accommodation. Why? We have underperformance right across the board. We are at the end of the year. I am sure we are all interested and want to provide more good-quality homes. We cannot have a situation where, year after year, we face underspends right across the programmes. The one big gaping hole in this is the local authority housing delivery programme. I am not saying this from an ideological point of view but from the perspective of practical, human, population and societal need. We have to get this right and we are not doing it.

We started house-building programmes in a serious way in the past four to six years. We had the Covid pandemic, which was an awful interruption. We have come out the far side of that but we cannot continue, year after year, allowing a situation where we are totally underperforming right across the programmes, particularly as regards this programme, which should be, and was, the centrepiece. When there was less technical information and less mechanisation, we were able to do all these things. Now, we seem to be paralysed.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Before I bring in Ms Stapleton, I will mention a big element of that. The Cathaoirleach always talks about the 1970s when we were putting in many more houses. Do not forget, we were building large council housing estates, which we are not doing now, and that is bad policy for all kinds of reasons. I know we agree on that.

An Cathaoirleach

We want a good social mix.

Mr. Graham Doyle

It would be very easy to go out, and would be even easier with standardisation, to a big open field and stick 1,000 units of the same type on it. That is not what we are doing and that is not what housing policy is now.

An Cathaoirleach

We could put 20 houses in Rathdowney, however, that look the same as 40 houses in Mountmellick, which is a bigger town, that are the same as 60 houses in Portlaoise, which is a bigger town again, and nobody would object to that. The texture could be changed slightly, the cost and the architectural fees could be reduced, a lot of the nonsense, bureaucracy and back and forth could be cut out, and we could have good-quality design. That is what I am arguing for. I am not arguing for putting 3,000 houses in a huge area of one of the cities, or massive single-tenancy houses in a particular area. Of course, we should have affordable homes and a private mix as well. Does Mr. Doyle get the point I am making?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I do.

Ms Áine Stapleton

There is very little distance between us and the Chair in our shared objective of standardisation. Our architectural team has engaged fairly extensively, as part of the initiative under Housing for All, to look more widely at MMC. In partnership with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, we are leading on that. We have come up with a small number of designs that industry agrees would be absolutely suitable for standardisation for MMC and we have translated those into CAD drawings. We are moving very far in that direction. I would be happy for the architectural team and I to meet with the Chair, if he wants to go through that in more detail.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes. Perhaps we could do that in the new year.

Ms Áine Stapleton

That might be very helpful.

An Cathaoirleach

I appreciate that. Before we finish, I acknowledge the progress with the land aggregation scheme, LAGS, sites in Laois. They are nearly all either active or a plan is in place for them, including the ones in Portlaoise and Rathdowney. I will ask about the one in Mountrath. The HSE may want a site on that. The officials might be able to tell me whether there has been agreement on the acquisition of part of the site by the HSE for a health centre. Is that signed and sealed?

Ms Claire Feeney

It is on its way.

An Cathaoirleach

It is on its way. Okay. There is no resistance from the Housing Agency to it.

Ms Claire Feeney

No. Far from it.

An Cathaoirleach

There is a need for housing at the Mountrath site as well because it is in a population centre. The Housing Agency might look at that. The site on the Portlaoise Road at Mountrath is fairly big.

The question is about the 90-day limit relating to Ukrainian refugees. We have done well in the context of helping people fleeing the war in Ukraine. What effect will the 90-day limit have on supply in the private rented sector and on homelessness? Mr. Kelly said earlier that he does not know what the effect will be once the 90-day limit ends. I am taken by that. If the Department of housing does not know the effect, there has to be a conversation about that between it and the Department of children.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Ms Stapleton has dealt with a lot of the Ukrainian issues. I will ask her, rather than Mr. Kelly, to speak to that because she will have more information.

Ms Áine Stapleton

There has been extensive whole-of-government engagement through the senior officials group that reports to the Cabinet committee. The policy changes and range of scenarios have been discussed. We have close engagement and have agreed with colleagues in the Department of children that we will monitor, through the senior officials group, how the policy is progressing and what impacts it is having as it progresses.

An Cathaoirleach

Would it not be the case that people in the temporary international protection system will be going into the mainstream housing system and the housing pool in the private rented sector and will be receiving the housing assistance payment?

Ms Áine Stapleton

They will not be eligible for the housing assistance payment. As recipients of social welfare, they will get the rent supplement.

An Cathaoirleach

That comes under the Department of Social Protection.

Ms Áine Stapleton

Yes. That is the case once the 90-day provision of accommodation-----

An Cathaoirleach

Do the senior officials across this group meet? Does Ms Stapleton see a problem with this?

Ms Áine Stapleton

I suppose the intent-----

An Cathaoirleach

I apologise for interrupting. Many termination of tenancy notices will come into force early in the new year. A number of the people involved will be going into emergency accommodation or will have to seek other private rented accommodation. If that is the case, and the supply is drying up, you then have this added layer of Ukrainian refugees coming out of 90-day temporary international protection looking for accommodation in the same places. Do the senior officials see a problem with that and budget for that?

Ms Áine Stapleton

I will not comment on the merits of the policy, as it would not be appropriate for me to do so.

An Cathaoirleach

But officials advise the Ministers.

Ms Áine Stapleton

At the senior officials level, we are keeping a close eye on the implementation and what impacts it will have as it is implemented.

An Cathaoirleach

But they do not know at this stage. That is what Mr. Kelly said.

Ms Áine Stapleton

We cannot envision all of the likely policy scenarios at this stage. The intention behind the policy is to have a smaller number of temporary protection applicants seeing Ireland as their final destination.

An Cathaoirleach

Does it have the potential to cause problems in the context of, for want of a better term, the supply of private rented accommodation and homeless accommodation? Does it have the potential to create a problem for those people who are already looking at losing tenancies over the coming year? They will now be facing a situation where a large chunk of this will be taken up with international protection applicants.

Ms Áine Stapleton

We have to look at the full suite of measures available to support people. We will have the tenant in situ scheme operating in 2024 to help protect some of those tenancies where notices of termination come into play in the first part of the year. At this stage, we will have to keep an eye on implementation as it progresses.

An Cathaoirleach

This is an area of concern. It will need to be monitored. I thank Ms Stapleton for the answers and information.

I thank the Housing Agency and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform for attending and preparing the documents for today. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and staff for assisting. Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow up information and carry out any agreed actions arising from the meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we note and publish the opening statements and briefings provided for today's meeting? Agreed.

I wish the people in the Department, the Housing Agency and the C and AG's office and the staff of the committee a happy Christmas. Some of us have to come back in the afternoon because we have unfinished businesses, but I wish everyone a happy Christmas and best wishes for the new year. We look forward to receiving replies to some of that information we got today, and to some other pieces we sought, which were a little incomplete. Go raibh míle maith agaibh.

The witnesses withdrew.

Sitting suspended at 12.35 p.m. and resumed at 1.35 p.m.