COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 25 Jan 2024

Business of Committee

An Cathaoirleach

The public business before us this afternoon is as follows: minutes; accounts and financial statements; correspondence; work programme; and any other business.

The minutes of our meeting of 18 January have been circulated. Do members wish to raise any matter relating to them? Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual, they will be published on the committee’s webpage.

We move to accounts and financial statements. Eight sets of accounts and financial statements have been circulated. These were laid before the Houses between 10 January and 19 January. I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to address these.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The first set of financial statements relates to the climate action fund for 2022. It received a clear audit opinion. No. 2, St. Angela's College, Sligo, for 2022, received a clear audit opinion. No. 3, the Credit Union Restructuring Board for 2022, received a clear audit opinion. No. 4, the National Council for Special Education for 2022, received a clear audit opinion. No. 5, Water Safety Ireland for 2022, received a clear audit opinion. However, I drew attention to a disclosure in the financial statements of a severance arrangement with the former CEO at a total cost in 2022 of just over €115,000. No. 6, the National Economic and Social Development Office for 2022, received a clear audit opinion. No. 7 is the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, for the period 1 January 2022 to 14 March 2023. These are the cessation accounts as the BAI has been dissolved. It received a clear audit opinion. No. 8, Dublin City University for the financial year 2021-22, received a clear audit opinion, but I drew attention to the disclosure in the statement on internal control of a settlement of €500,000 to a former staff member.

An Cathaoirleach

Does any member wish to raise anything regarding the accounts and financial statements?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes. Was the severance arrangement of €115,000 out of line with general standards? Is that why the Comptroller and Auditor General has drawn attention to it?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It was a figure that was arrived at after a mediation process. It received the sanction of the Department of public expenditure. However, it was a severance involving a CEO, which was why I drew attention to it.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Okay. What about Dublin City University?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Again, that was quite a substantial settlement. It was a very protracted engagement with a staff member. I think there was a mediation process there. More detail is given in the statement on internal control.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the listing of accounts and financial statements agreed? Agreed. As usual, these will be published as part of our minutes.

Moving on to correspondence, three previously agreed items that were not flagged for discussion at today's meeting will be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated. Decisions taken by the committee in relation to correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee’s meetings and published on our webpage.

Five items have been flagged for discussion today. The first category under which items have been flagged is category B, which is correspondence from Accounting Officers and Ministers and follow-up to committee meetings.

No. R2315 B is correspondence from Mr. Robert Watt, Secretary General of the Department of Health, dated 16 January. It provides a response to questions raised by the committee regarding the national children’s hospital. It is proposed to note and publish this item. Is that agreed? Agreed. It is also proposed to hold it over for consideration until next week because departmental officials will be in then. As Mr. Watt is the Accounting Officer, he will also be here on that date. Are members happy enough with that? Agreed.

No. R2318 B is correspondence from the office of the director general of RTÉ, dated 16 January, which provides an update on the McCann FitzGerald report. It is proposed to note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Separately, No. R2319 B is from Siún Ní Raghallaigh, the cathaoirleach of the RTÉ board, which is also dated 16 January. It provides an update regarding the Grant Thornton review, which is now out. It is proposed to note and publish this item. In the few minutes I had to look at what has come out over lunchtime, some fairly stark revelations are in that review by any account. The committee will have to revisit the matter. Deputy Murphy wanted to comment on this.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I wrote to the committee regarding RTÉ on 9 December 2022. The Chair might remember I looked for the business case at that stage. That was in real time. Many of the things we had concerns about at that stage are contained in the report.

The lack of somebody with overall financial responsibility is quite incredible. I will go through it in some detail. Certainly we can see there are corporate failings here. We had hoped we would have this report on the redundancies and the Grant Thornton report prior to December so they could be included in our report. There is a real possibility that we will need to speak to one or more people in the organisation. This would require a meeting. We do not want this to go on forever. It would be prudent for us to go back and look for an extension for these two reports. Ideally we would have covered them, had we had them in advance of the December deadline.

An Cathaoirleach

Originally the expectation, or certainly my understanding, was that we would have both reports by the end of November. We did not have them. Meanwhile we had to proceed with the draft document and work is at an advanced stage on it. We have this report out today and it has significant findings. Nobody has read it in full at this point. For anyone who has seen it, or seen some of the issues that have been leaked out of it already, it points to where to go on it. It shows there are significant issues to be addressed.

When we looked for authorisation from the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight in the Oireachtas to extend our powers and our remit to bring in RTÉ to dig into its accounts and examine the matters we examined throughout last year, we did not have "Toy Show The Musical". At that stage it was before July and all of this had not even unfolded. It was subsequent. If we are going to do it, and if we intend to bring RTÉ before the committee again, we need to seek an extension. I suggest to Deputies Murphy and Burke and other members that it might be wise to include the Grant Thornton-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

That is precisely what I was saying.

Deputy Colm Burke

Agreed.

An Cathaoirleach

-----and the McCann Fitzgerald report on the exit packages and goodbye money. It is due out. The letter we have today indicates that it will come soon. It may be out in the next week or two. So that we do not come back again for a third time, we should look for an extension of our remit to deal with both issues. This would be the best course of action to take.

Deputy Colm Burke

I agree with the Cathaoirleach's proposal that we deal with both issues at the same time.

An Cathaoirleach

We do not want this going on forever and a day.

Deputy Colm Burke

Absolutely not.

An Cathaoirleach

Many of the issues have been well flagged. There are a number of major issues arising in the report on "Toy Show The Musical", some of them not unexpected. They are a mirror of some of the other issues we covered throughout the year regarding governance, accountability, the lack of information flow, board accountability and accountability to the board. In this case there are problems with the absence of a proper business case and decent, if there was any at all, market research, even the basic sums of the calculation on what was required to get into the black and make a profit. If it is agreed by the committee, we will make a request to extend our remit to examine Grant Thornton's report on "Toy Show The Musical" and the report on the exit packages from RTÉ that will come from McCann FitzGerald. Is that agreed? Agreed.

An Cathaoirleach

There is not much else to be said on this. People will read the report with interest, I am sure, over the next day or two. It will be bedtime reading.

The next category is category C, correspondence from and related to private individuals and any other correspondence.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Before we move on I want to discuss No. R2283 from the Advertising Standards Authority of Ireland.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I just want to say that it proves it was of value for us to make the complaint because it will change the rules. This will be as a consequence of us referring the issue. It was worthwhile.

An Cathaoirleach

We are moving onto that now. There is a typo in the speaking note. It is No. R2283 from Ms Orla Twomey, chief executive of the Advertising Standards Authority of Ireland, dated 10 January 2024. It provides the decision of the complaints committee in relation to a complaint from this committee about the national lottery. It arose from our hearing with the national lottery. After considering the detail of the complaint and the advertiser's response, the complaints committee considered that a statement was warranted in this case. The ASAI states:

In future, where similar claims are made on the percentage of money that goes back to the community, a qualification should be included to state that the prize money referred to may include unclaimed prizes which could be returned to the advertisers.

I propose that we note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. The complainant's statement has also been published on the ASAI's website.

Representatives of the national lottery came before the committee last year. The issue arose that there was clearly misleading advertising. We made the complaint. It is important that people who play national lottery games and the general public know that the information they receive in the advertising is accurate. It was not accurate and it was misleading. This is the proof of it. It is important that the Committee of Public Accounts fleshed it out and got it corrected. Do other members wish to speak on this?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Only to say that it just shows that it was worthwhile to take it up with the ASAI.

An Cathaoirleach

It is very important. It is about making the corrections.

No. R2317 C is from an individual and is dated 14 January 2024. It seeks an update on matters arising from the committee's meeting with Inland Fisheries Ireland on 6 July 2023. I propose that we inform the correspondent that the committee will meet with the IFI on 7 March to examine the matters raised and any other issues arising from the 2022 financial statements. Is that agreed? Agreed. I flagged this item for discussion. When we have the hearing on 7 March we will be in a better position to respond. It will be more meaningful for the correspondent.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Have we discussed No. 2314?

An Cathaoirleach

It is about the facility in Leixlip.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The net issue being raised is one I know very well. It is not about the people who are living in the house. The issue is being raised more generally on the type of oversight that happens with regard to property providers. We sent a letter in July last year stating we would write to the Department of children and integration. Have we had any reply from that Department on this issue? I remember raising it with the Secretary General when he came before the committee. I asked about the process. We were told that once people are tax compliant that is it. This is the nub of the issue. Is this all that is required?

Are there more checks done? I am talking about providers of accommodation for international protection or for people who are coming from Ukraine.

An Cathaoirleach

Previous correspondence indicates that on 15 June it was agreed to write to the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth to seek information on what due diligence they are undertaking on potential providers of accommodation. At that meeting on 21 September it was agreed to note and publish the Department's response. That response was R2079. It is there somewhere. I cannot tell you at this point. It is back six months ago.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Could you forward that to me so I can make sure they get it? This was one that required planning permission because it is a protected structure. It was outside the scope of the exemptions, if you like, and there are other issues.

An Cathaoirleach

The residents association was raising it.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Ryevale Lawns residents association. Okay. Thank you for that. Moving on to the work programme, members have been circulated with a draft work programme which is up on your screens now. On 1 February we are meeting with the Department of Health in respect of----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is not on this screen.

An Cathaoirleach

Are you okay? Have you got it on your screens?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is on that screen, it is not on this one for some reason.

An Cathaoirleach

Can you share screens? Okay. On 1 February we are meeting with the Department of Health on its 2022 appropriation accounts, Vote 38, chapter 18 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's annual report. Representatives of the HSE have also been invited to attend.

On 8 February we meet with the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission on its 2022 financial statements. The resourcing of GSOC and timelines for processing and completion of complaints by GSOC have been flagged as areas of interest. This is going by previous meetings in respect of the shortage of resources, I suppose, for GSOC and the pressure it is under .

We will meet with the Department of Justice on 15 February on its 2022 appropriation accounts, Vote 21, prisons, and Vote 24, justice. The resourcing of GSOC and the international protection office have been flagged as areas of interest for that meeting.

On 22 February we meet with the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sports and Media, with Sports Ireland and representatives of the FAI and the SFAI. We have put a limit on the number of representatives from each of those bodies that can come in because otherwise we would have to hire a venue for the meeting with a room that would be big enough. Specific areas of interest there are the oversight and governance of grant funding providing to the FAI, including the Covid-19 relief fund; the interest-free concessionary loan of €2.5 million per annum for three years from the Government to the FAI; the memorandum of understanding signed by the Minister for sport and the FAI in January 2020; the circumstances under which an agreement for payment in lieu of annual leave was made to the former independent chair of the board, the former director and the HR director of the FAI. The next area of interest is oversight and governance of funding for the Schoolboys/Girls Football Association of Ireland, the SFAI. The next one is the FAI's proposal that revenue from tax on betting be allocated to the FAI. The last point was FAI plans for the use of the leased 30 acres at Brook Lodge at Glanmire in County Cork, which was raised by Deputy Colm Burke.

Last week we rescheduled a meeting on 29 February with Tusla for its financial statements 2022. It was also agreed at that meeting to schedule a meeting with Inland Fisheries Ireland for 7 March in respect of its financial statements 2022, which I think are ready.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

They have been signed but they have not been presented yet. I do not have any update on that.

An Cathaoirleach

Would you expect that they would be laid before the Houses?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes, the normal expectation is within three months of having been signed. They were signed at the end of November so they should be there.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. That takes us up to the March recess. After that, we will meet An Garda Síochána in respect of their 2022 appropriation account, Vote 20, An Garda Síochána. I ask that members flag areas of interest for any of those meetings. If members have anything else they want to add to the work programme, they might indicate.

Deputy James O'Connor

Just on the FAI's appearance, I wanted to make one inquiry. Would it be possible to look at bringing in the chairperson of the audit and risk committee within the FAI as part of that discussion?

An Cathaoirleach

I cannot see why not.

Deputy James O'Connor

Thank you very much. I ask as well that we add the Department of equality and integration to our list for later in the spring, and Inland Fisheries Ireland. Is that agreed? That completes consideration of the work programme.

Deputy Colm Burke

I think Inland Fisheries Ireland are in for 7 March. Is that the provisional date?

An Cathaoirleach

It is 7 March. That concludes consideration of the work programme. Is there any other business in the public session that members wish to raise? Deputy O'Connor raised an issue in relation to correspondence item No. R2272B which we considered here last week. Do you want to address that?

Deputy James O'Connor

Yes, Chair. Of course we had our meeting with Uisce Éireann some time ago. I asked a number of questions about its vaccination programme for workers. Given the work Irish Water does, it can be highly dangerous work in terms of contaminated water and wastewater. During that meeting we received some information which I believe to be factually incorrect around Irish Water's vaccination programme for its workers. This relates to those who have to work on the front line in terms of hazardous conditions. I would ask that they would clarify information they provided to this committee on the day. Both Mr. Gleeson and Mr. Laffey said that there was a process in place. I understand this is not correct. I call on them to clarify the remarks that have been made. There are obligations that this needs to be done for the workers involved. I would like Irish Water to come back and clarify what they said here for the purpose of correcting the record.

An Cathaoirleach

Are you happy enough for us to correspond with it and come back with a statement that can be read into the record?

Deputy James O'Connor

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

We will request that. We will now go into private session briefly before adjourning until 9.30 a.m. next Thursday, 1 February, when we engage with the Department of Health.

The committee went into private session at 2.10 p.m. and adjourned at 2.22 p.m. until 9.20 a.m. on Thursday, 1 February 2024.