Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Committee on Budgetary Oversight díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 16 May 2018

Corporation Tax Regime: Discussion

Before we begin I remind members and witnesses to turn off their mobile phones. Interference from mobile phones affects sound quality. I welcome Mr. Seamus Coffey from University College Cork. I thank him for making himself available to meet with the committee today. The committee is carrying out the ex ante scrutiny of budget 2019 and Mr. Coffey has carried out a review of corporation tax, otherwise known as the Coffey report as part of the 2018 budget. Many of the issues identified in relation to corporation tax are still extremely relevant to our discussion on the 2019 budget. For example, we note the IMF's recent concluding statement highlighting budgetary risks involving high dependency and possible volatile corporate tax revenues. That is something we would like to discuss and tease out with him today following his presentation.

I will go through the usual reminders on privilege. Before we hear the opening statement I wish to advise that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any a person outside the House, or any official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I should nearly know that off by heart at this stage. I invite Dr. Coffey to make his opening statement to the committee.

Mr. Seamus Coffey

Thank you Chairman for the invitation from the committee to discuss some issues relating to corporation tax.

Ireland's corporation tax regime is under almost constant scrutiny and a wide variety of issues related to it can be discussed. For the purposes of this statement I will make a few comments on effective rates and also issues relating to concentration and sustainability. I am sure other topics will arise during the course of the discussion and I hope to be able to offer some insight to members from my work in this area.

There is a wide variety of ways of measuring effective rates. In an overall sense they can be divided into effective rates by company and effective rates by country and within those there are numerous approaches that can be taken. Aggregate data can be used to estimate effective tax rates on profits in the tax base of a particular country. Both the Central Statistics Office, CSO, and the Revenue Commissioners provide aggregate data which provide different, though complementary, approaches to estimating effective corporate tax rates for Ireland. The institutional sector accounts from the CSO give the net operating surplus of non-financial companies. Using the corporation tax figures in the same accounts an effective tax rate on net operating surplus can be calculated. This has averaged 9.7% since 2000. The effective tax rate on net operating surplus peaked at 11.8% in 2006 and fell during the crisis. It has been below 8% since 2011 but reached 8.1% in 2016. Allowing for eligible interest costs would increase the rate and the increased use of losses carried forward likely explains the reduction in the effective rate in recent years. These losses can be trading losses or unused capital allowances.

The aggregate corporation tax statistics produced by the Revenue Commissioners give details of the taxable income of companies and the tax due on that amount. Taxable income is what is included in the tax base after all deductions have been allowed for, such as trade charges, group relief, losses carried forward and capital allowances. Recently published figures from the Revenue Commissioners show that for tax returns filed for years ending in 2016 tax due as a share of taxable income was 10%. The primary reasons this is less than the headline 12.5% rate is because of double tax relief granted for tax paid in other jurisdictions on foreign income included in Ireland's tax base and the existence of the research and development tax credit. In the absence of those two issues the effective tax rate would be close to the headline rate of 12.5%.

The Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General made an important contribution to this area when it published analysis of effective tax rates of the top 100 companies. The Comptroller and Auditor General looked at the top 100 ranked by tax due and taxable income. The analysis by taxable income showed that for most companies the effective rate is very close to the headline rate. Some 65 companies had effective rates of above 12% and a further 14 had effective rates above 10%. The analysis provides very strong support for the effectiveness of the 12.5% rate on the taxable income of companies and highlights that most attention should focus on how taxable income is determined. However, it was not surprising that significant attention was given to the 13 companies who had effective rates of 1% or less. The Comptroller and Auditor General made clear that the reasons for these low rates were double tax relief and the R&D tax credit. The Revenue Commissioners looked at these 13 companies and said that in the absence of double tax relief and the R&D credit the effective tax rate for all 13 of these companies would have been above 12%.

Double tax relief arises because of the worldwide nature of Ireland's corporation tax regime. It is likely that the inclusion of foreign profits in Ireland's corporate income tax base provides little revenue as the tax paid abroad will almost always exceed the tax due in Ireland, particularly with the pooling of foreign tax credits. It is highly unlikely that companies are paying tax in other jurisdictions to avoid tax in Ireland and it should be noted that the foreign tax paid is excluded from the effective tax rates calculated by the Comptroller and Auditor General which only looked at the tax due in Ireland.

The Review of Ireland's Corporation Tax Code published last year recommended that Ireland considers moving away from the current worldwide regime to a territorial regime in line with most other OECD countries. With effective controlled-foreign corporate, CFC, rules this would take previously-taxed foreign income out of Ireland's tax base and eliminate the need for foreign tax credits. The low effective tax rates reported by the Comptroller and Auditor General due to foreign income would no longer arise.

The R&D tax credit is a policy choice that grants a credit equal to 25% of qualifying expenditure. This means that companies can get tax relief of €37.5 for every €100 of qualifying expenditure they incur. Spending €100 to avoid €37.5 of tax would not be a viable tax avoidance strategy. The company will only incur the R&D cost if it feels it will add value and contribute to future profitability. Of course, the effectiveness and the level of the subsidy should be subject to scrutiny. If this is R&D spending that would have happened anyway then it is an unnecessary public subsidy. A previous study by the Department of Finance indicates that 60% of the R&D spending is due to the presence of the R&D tax credit. So while there is some deadweight loss linked to the R&D spending that would have happened anyway the analysis suggests the R&D credit is increasing activity.

It is also worth noting that the level of the credit was set when the federal corporate income tax rate in the United States was 35%.

Ireland would have been competing for research and development activity that would otherwise have happened in the US, with a deduction at 12.5% versus a deduction in the US at a minimum of 35%. The 25% credit significantly improved Ireland's competitiveness in such an environment. Recent changes mean that the federal rate is no longer 35% and it may be worth assessing the level of Ireland's research and development credit in light of these changes. The Comptroller and Auditor General should be encouraged to repeat the analysis undertaken for its 2017 report. Ideally, this would be done every year but at a minimum it would be useful to see it every two years. This company-level analysis is an important complement to the aggregate level statistics provided by the Revenue Commissioners and the Central Statistics Office, CSO. If the analysis was done on an annual basis, it may be possible to provide some insight into how company effective tax rates vary through time. It would also be helpful if an aggregate calculation that combined all the data for the top 100 companies was included in the analysis. The CSO has recently published a set of accounts for what it considers the top 50 companies in its statistics. The type of analysis undertaken by the Comptroller and Auditor General would also be useful if changes to Ireland's corporation tax regime are introduced, such as the move to a territorial system or adjustments to the research and development tax credit.

Over the past few years the Revenue Commissioners have published staff reports that have provided important insights into the concentrated nature of Ireland's corporate income tax base. The Revenue Commissioners are to be commended on the willingness to devote resources to allow this work to be undertaken and on facilitating its publication. The analysis shows that since 2013, the top ten payers account for around 38% of corporation tax receipts each year. Although the level of concentration has remained relatively stable, there has been significant volatility within the figures. For example, receipts from the largest ten payers in 2015 came to €2.8 billion. In 2017, these same ten companies paid €2.25 billion of corporation tax. The top ten payers in 2017 paid €3.2 billion compared to the €2.3 billion these ten companies paid in 2015. Even though the proportion of payments coming from the top ten in 2015 and 2017 are very close, the top ten from 2015 paid €0.5 billion less in corporation tax in 2017, and the top ten in 2017 paid almost €1 billion more than they did in 2015. At first glance, the aggregates might be relatively stable but there is significant volatility taking place under the bonnet.

The level of concentration by country of ownership should also be noted. In 2017, the top 100 payers made €5.9 billion of corporation tax payments, equal to 71.5% of the total. Within this top 100, 51 US companies paid €4.25 billion, UK companies €128 million, Irish companies €370 million, with €1.1 billion coming from companies owned outside these three countries. It is clear that our receipts are also highly concentrated among US-owned companies. The Review of Ireland's Corporation Tax Code published last year concluded that: "Although it is impossible to be definitive and the volatility in receipts will remain the level-shift increase in Corporation Tax receipts seen in 2015 can be expected to be sustainable over the medium term to 2020." Nothing has happened in the interim, either at EU, US or Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, OECD, levels, that would alter that conclusion. However, it should be noted that the conclusion was made in the context of the 2016 outturn for corporation tax of €7.3 billion. It was not known that 2017 receipts would exceed €8 billion and that forecasts would include projections showing receipts reaching €10 billion by 2021.

The concentration and volatility of corporation tax receipts mean that a year when they fall is inevitable. We should not be surprised, or taken by surprise, when this happens. In the near term, the reason for the fall is likely to be the inherent volatility which is a feature of our corporation tax receipts, rather than any structural shift or change. The Review of Ireland's Corporation Tax Code also stated: "Given this uncertainty we can never be sure of the sources and permanency of such revenues and it would be wise that policy should be suitably cautious in terms of introducing increases in spending or permanent reductions in taxation." I trust that the careful deliberations of this committee on this matter will ensure that the value for such caution will be impressed by the members here on their colleagues in both Houses of the Oireachtas. I thank the committee for the invitation to attend here today. I look forward to our discussions and hope I can assist with any questions members have.

I thank Mr. Coffey for that very interesting presentation and call Deputy McGrath.

I welcome Mr. Coffey and thank him for the opening statement. I will start by asking him about table 9, where he talks about the concentration of volatility. Is his point that companies are moving in and out of the top ten?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

Yes. Even within those companies, the level of payments is changing. There are different companies in the top ten each year. We do not know which numbers are changing but Revenue has indicated they are changing. The amount of tax being paid by those companies is changing.

So the overall issue of concentration remains, that close to 40% of receipts are from the top ten but the composition of the top ten is changing and the amount of tax paid within that is changing too. What does that tell Mr. Coffey? What is the message there about volatility?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

Much is happening and there is much volatility that we are not necessarily seeing. While it might be close to 40% every year, it could be different companies. For the last number of years, it looks like most of the volatility has caused increases. The top ten from 2015 are now paying €0.5 billion less. The top ten in 2017 are paying €1 billion more than they did in 2015. The net effect of those is that we are seeing more corporation tax. It should be noted that certain companies are paying less at present and are being offset by other companies paying more. We should not expect that to continue.

Comparing us to other industrialised nations, would the fact that 80% of our corporation tax receipts are from multinationals be significantly out of line with other countries we would normally be compared with?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

Way out of line.

Mr. Seamus Coffey

I would imagine that, across the EU, there is no other country that gets the majority of its corporation tax from what we call non-domestic companies. Looking at profits across the EU, the share of profits in domestic companies would be greater than 50% for all other 27 countries. In Ireland, the share of profits from domestic companies would be less than 50% and hence more than 50% of the profits arising in Ireland would be in foreign-owned companies.

Why is it not held up as a greater risk? Surely that is a stand-out risk for the economy if that is way out of line with international norms? Mr. Coffey is now talking about €8.5 billion in 2018. It is 15.7% of total expected taxation receipts. It is a relatively high level of dependence. Within that, the concentration and focus on multinationals is quite acute but it does not seem to be held up as a major risk.

Mr. Seamus Coffey

While the tax base would be skewed towards the multinationals in Ireland, their presence in Ireland would also be larger than it is in other countries, including their level of employment and investment. While the tax base may be subject to changes, one could argue that it is linked to the level of activity that is taking place. Unless there was an underlying change in the activity, that tax base should be reasonably solid. The issue is that we are becoming dependent on the employment, the investment and the tax receipts so we are putting all our eggs in one basket.

Is Mr. Coffey's point that it is wider economic dependence that is at issue and the taxation dependence is not out of line with our overall economic dependence on the multinational sector?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

The level of profits and tax we are collecting could appear large relative to the impact that the companies have on the economy but they have employment and investment here.

Does the overall conclusion in Mr. Coffey's report last year, that corporation tax receipts are sustainable to the extent that he can tell out to 2020, remain valid and in place?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

That holds, yes.

That holds. What can Mr. Coffey say about after 2020? Many of the expenditure commitments and budgetary decisions being made have long-term implications. They are put into the base and are recurring annual costs. Similarly, taxation forgone is recurring unless one changes policy. If Mr. Coffey is only concluding that it is sustainable for the next two to three years, what can he say about beyond that?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

It would be difficult to be concrete about the period beyond 2020 because it is getting further into the future and changes can happen that we simply cannot predict. At international level, we are likely to see a renewal of the OECD's base erosion and profit shifting, BEPS, project, that has, for all intents and purposes, gone through phase one, and is now at the implementation phase. By 2020, it is likely that the OECD will review what has happened to date. Maybe some of the changes will have happened and we will know who have been the winners and losers. It is clear from the OECD's project to date that Ireland has been one of the winners. There may be other changes at EU level but their implementation seems quite remote.

There is uncertainty around the US, and although tax reform was passed last December, it was done with support from just one side of the US political divide. If there are changes in the make-up of Congress, there is potential for further alterations in the US tax environment. It may not be ideal to have such a narrow window that goes to 2020 but given the nature of the matter we are dealing with, it is hard to go beyond that. We saw a very abrupt increase in 2015 and while there is no indication that will be reversed, it should be borne in mind that it could happen.

With the overall corporation tax regime we have reliefs, allowable deductions and tax credits such as the research and development credit. How open and transparent is our system as a corporation tax code with respect to other countries?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

We have a relatively simple system; a number is multiplied by 12.5%. After that very limited credits are available. There is a foreign tax credit as we include foreign income in our tax base but companies have already paid tax abroad on that. Of course we also have the policy decision made to offer the research and development tax credit. As I said in the opening statement, much of the attention should focus on the determination of taxable income and those deductions and allowances mentioned by the Deputy. The amounts of those are clearly available from the Revenue Commissioners. We can see the impact of them. It is not as opaque as might be the case in other countries, where there could be a wide variety of different rates and different regimes applying to different industries. There can be different regimes applying within different regimes. In Ireland we have a very transparent system by international standards.

The one area in which there is significant potential for distortion is in intellectual property, IP, and royalty payments, which can result in profits being shifted from one jurisdiction to another. How would the witness characterise our system with respect to royalty payments for intellectual property? With base erosion and profit shifting, BEPS, and the OECD transfer pricing arrangements, where does Ireland sit in respect of transfer pricing, IP and royalty payments?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

Ireland gets much attention because of IP and the European Commission recently did a study that looked at the profit shifting mentioned by the Deputy. With royalty payments we are a standout case, particularly with outbound royalty payments relative to the economy. In transfer pricing we are a late arrival to the party and did not introduce it until 2010. Many of the transactions at the time were grandfathered. Over time our transfer pricing regime should improve. The review last year indicated that the new OECD transfer pricing guidelines should be incorporated into Irish domestic law, and if we are to do that we should do it no later than 2020. This will have a significant impact. There is much talk of the tax strategies that multinationals use, such as the "double Irish" etc., but by and large these are the interactions of various tax codes. Although we have claimed credit for abolishing the double Irish, we have not done so because we simply could not do so. Internationally, the transfer pricing guidelines can affect it.

If we introduce the new OECD guidelines, especially BEPS actions Nos. 8 to 10, inclusive, there will be a major impact on this. The argument Ireland has made up to now with these outgoing royalty payments is that once they leave Ireland they are paying for a service, and we do not look beyond the Irish jurisdiction. The Revenue Commissioners just look at what happens in Ireland and where the royalty payments go is of no concern to us. If we introduce these new guidelines, the Revenue Commissioners will have to look at where the payment is made and if the substance of the receiving company justifies the receipt of substantial royalty payments. If they do not have that substance, the Irish company will not get a deduction for the royalty payments made. The Irish company could still make it but in an Irish context it would no longer get the deduction. It is a change that would end these types of strategies. The royalty payments would no longer be eligible as a tax deduction in Ireland if and when we introduce BEPS actions Nos. 8 to 10, inclusive, in Irish legislation.

There would be more economic substance to the transaction. Is that the key impact on Ireland's corporation tax receipts? If there is not deemed to be substance in a transaction, a company will not get the deduction or the benefit of reducing a tax liability here.

Mr. Seamus Coffey

If the companies do not respond and continue to make those payments, they would not get them as a deduction. Those are huge payments, with the latest figures for 2017 showing that outgoing royalty payments are over €70 billion. The Deputy can guess that the vast majority of those are made to low or no-tax jurisdictions, where the companies do not have substance. This is in compliance with existing transfer pricing rules, looking at the substance we have, but the new rules indicate we should look at the substance of the receiver. If the companies did not respond and continued to make those payments, there would be a surge in profits in Ireland. It is fair to say companies will respond.

Deputy McGrath can come back in.

I wanted to hear about digital tax. We have heard the views on the common consolidated corporation tax base.

We can come back to that. Deputy Lisa Chambers is next up and then we will hear from Deputy Pearse Doherty.

I have a short question.

If the other members agree to allow in Deputy Ryan for a quick question, that is fine.

I have another meeting at 3 p.m. It is an excellent presentation. The 13 companies paying 1% or less jumped out at me, along with the statement that the main element behind it is the double tax relief arrangements and the research and development tax credit, to a lesser extent I would imagine. The witness states the review of the tax code last year indicated we should move away from the current worldwide regime to a territorial regime. That would see those companies, effectively, going closer to the 12%. Does that connect to the point made about royalty payments? Is that a separate issue? Will it double down on the tightening up of the process? I am sure nobody here wants to see a company just paying 1%. How would the territorial regime work versus a global regime? Is it part of the same OECD and European Union reform?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

No, it is not part of that. It is somewhat separate. It is a choice that Ireland must make. Very few countries have a worldwide regime and some have moved from worldwide regimes to territorial regimes. It is about how much of the profit of companies would be placed in a tax base. For an Irish-resident company, we put its profits, no matter where they are earned, into our tax base. If those profits are earned in a foreign jurisdiction, they have already been subject to tax and we grant this double tax relief. The issues of royalties and changes in transfer pricing are slightly separate.

One concern is that if we move to a territorial regime, Irish companies might move their profits to lower tax jurisdictions and then bringing them back to Ireland, claiming these as foreign profits. To prevent that we need what is called controlled foreign corporation rules. We must look at what is happening in foreign companies and if they have the substance to justify the profit they might earn when those profits come back in. If it is counted as Irish rather than foreign profit, it would be subject to tax in Ireland. There are dangers in moving to a territorial regime but we must introduce these controlled foreign company, CFC, rules as part of the EU's anti-tax avoidance directive. If we introduced strong CFC rules, it would open the option to moving to a territorial regime.

If the concern is these low effective tax rates, as highlighted by the Comptroller and Auditor General, one way to remove them is to remove the foreign income from our tax base. We are including foreign income, on which tax has already been paid. There is no indication that these companies, particularly with foreign income, are generating company-wide effective tax rates of 1%. The Comptroller and Auditor General ignored the tax paid abroad and it just examined tax paid in Ireland. Taking out that income and removing the need for a foreign tax credit, the effective tax rate calculated would be based on the profit earned in Ireland. All the evidence from the Comptroller and Auditor General suggests that once taxable income is calculated for Ireland, the 12.5% rate is effective on that.

Would that change satisfy European colleagues who seem to be calling for taxes on large digital companies to be paid in their jurisdiction? It would see an increase in the tax applying in other European countries where the European headquarters is in Ireland. Has the Government indicated a commitment to moving to such a territorial scheme? Is it agreed?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

No. The report indicates it should be considered. We would need sufficiently strong CFC rules in place to ensure companies do not try to benefit by moving profit from Ireland and moving it back in while saying it is not Irish profit. Those rules would have to be introduced first.

If the rules were strong enough, then one could consider moving towards a territorial regime. As it stands with our worldwide regime, if companies shift profits to no-tax jurisdictions and bring them back in, they will not get a foreign tax credit because they have not paid the tax. We, in a sense, protect ourselves from that sort of circular motion.

Regarding the EU, I do not believe the move Ireland might make from a territorial to a worldwide regime will have an impact on digital taxation or the amount of tax which would be collected in EU countries. It depends on where the profits are generated and reported. The EU is suggesting we need different rules on that.

I thank Mr. Coffey for his presentation to the committee.

There are 13 companies paying an effective rate of 1%. Mr. Coffey said the research and development tax credit appears to have increased activity. Is it worth it if we have 13 companies on an effective 1% rate? Even if there is some increased activity, is it worth maintaining that?

The top ten companies account for 38% of corporate tax yield. More worryingly, in the top 100, 51 are US companies which account for 80% of our corporate tax receipts. That is a concern which I share. Is the Department of Finance taking sufficient account of the risks inherent in that figure? Has the Department made any attempt to mitigate that risk? The committee will be preparing its report for the next budget and it is an issue on which we would like to touch. I would welcome Mr. Coffey's views on that.

Mr. Seamus Coffey

As for whether the research and development tax credit is worth it, one can look at the figures objectively but the view one forms is up to the individual.

Approximately, €800 million was claimed through the credit each year for the past several years. This means there is research and development activity of approximately €3.2 billion. The rules specify this must take place in Ireland. It is a significant activity. The Department's analysis suggests that 40% of that would have happened anyway. Accordingly, 60% of that research and development activity is additional or new, meaning one is looking at around €1.8 billion to €2 billion of activity taking place, which it is argued is the result of the tax credit. We are offering a tax credit of €800 million to get a €2 billion increase in activity. One then has to work through to determine who is benefitting from that, the impact on employment, wages, spending in the economy and the Exchequer. If the €2 billion is the starting point, it would suggest that it is worth it. However, that is a subjective view. One would have to look at the overall impact of research and development tax credit on the economy.

As regards the concentration risks and whether the Department is doing enough, it has highlighted it. Its annual tax report for 2017 has an extensive section on corporation tax and highlights the risks involved. While this is identified as being a risk, getting all this money is a positive. How does one mitigate against the risk? Do we want these companies to pay less tax? I assume we would like to get the receipts as long as we can. However, we should be building into our macro and fiscal policies that these receipts may not be sustainable into the long term. I am not necessarily sure it is a risk that one wants actively to do something to mitigate. It should, however, be kept in mind regarding policies elsewhere. Accordingly, spending on tax changes introduced should have built in some space to allow for corporation tax receipts to change.

It is well identified and various bodies have pointed to the concentration of risk. The Revenue Commissioners are to be commended on providing this information. It ensures the scale of the problem is known and the caution which should be exercised should spread wider than just among the people in this room.

If the Department of Finance is highlighting this, one would then expect the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to act on that and not to use those receipts to fund permanent expenditure such as public pay, for example. That is an issue which the committee can look at retrospectively through scrutiny of previous budgets to ensure expenditure is not going to the wrong area.

With Brexit, multinationals could be looking to relocate to Ireland as their European base. That is welcome and we will do all we can to facilitate them. If that happens, it will have an impact on our corporate tax receipts and it might increase the percentage taken in from multinationals rather than indigenous companies. Has Mr. Coffey any advice on that?

Has he any further advice on how the committee can improve its budget scrutiny of corporation tax receipts?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

On Brexit, much of our legislation mentions treaty countries or EU countries. We will automatically assume the UK is included in that. There may be elements of the tax code which might need to be tightened, particularly for Irish-UK trade. If we want various provisions to continue to apply, we must ensure the UK is included if it is just limited to EU countries.

The overall Irish tax regime has proved to be attractive over the past several years. We find ourselves in a bit of a sweet spot at present when it comes to attracting employment and investment. I am not necessarily sure that from a corporation tax perspective in terms of attracting investment, there is anything particularly we have to change. We will continue to be in the EU and continue to be one of the closest markets for US companies in that regard, as well as with time zones, language, labour force flexibility etc. The concerns for attracting companies after Brexit will be different than corporation tax. For example, ensuring there is sufficient accommodation for people if a company wishes to locate here will be far higher on the agenda than changes to our corporation tax.

I recommend the analysis carried out by the Comptroller and Auditor General on corporation tax should be repeated. It was quite useful and provided insights into how our corporation tax regime works. The Revenue Commissioners are to be commended on the work they are doing. Much of the detail they are providing should be assessed in terms of allowance, claims, the overall level of incomes and how our tax system operates.

The key issue for a committee like this would be to highlight the risks. We have seen a doubling of corporation tax receipts from €4 billion to over €8 billion in quite a short period. It has provided a significant boost for the Exchequer. In 2011 and 2012, it was felt then that our interest bill would head for €10 billion while the corporation tax yield would be around €5 billion. Now, the view is that our interest bill will head for €5 billion while our corporation tax will be €10 billion. That is a €10 billion change in just those two items with one going up and the other going down. The wind is at our back and we cannot expect that to continue indefinitely.

The point Mr. Coffey made earlier in his opening statement on how taxable income is determined is good advice to the committee. It is better than arguing on whether it should be 12% or 8%. Much of that is because of how we calculate taxable income. People may suggest taxable income which is not calculated as taxable income should be calculated as such and, accordingly, come up with different figures.

We know the research and development tax credit has increased tenfold since 2004. It trebled between 2010 and 2015 and has increased each year up to in excess of €800 million. We also know that fewer companies are availing of it than were in previous years. We have a dramatic increase in the credit with a reduction in the numbers availing of it. There is also the refund part of the tax credit where we have to pay some companies. Will Mr. Coffey give his views on this to the committee?

If this trend continues, the tax credit will hit €1 billion quickly and will probably be one of the most costly tax credits we have. With the dead weight being at 40%, it is accepted that it is within the acceptable norms of where one still gets bang for buck.

Will Mr. Coffey clarify the threshold at which he believes one no longer gets bang for buck in terms of dead weight? Does the threshold differ? Is the 40% acceptable threshold the same for a tax credit worth €20 million and for one that may cost the State €1 billion, which means that dead weight part of the credit would be €400 million, without ignoring the level of spin-off economic activity the credit generates? This is an area with which Mr. Coffey did not deal in his report to the Minister. Was that because it was outside the terms of reference and scope of the report? If the Minister for Finance was sitting in front of Mr. Coffey now asking him what he should do in terms of the research and development tax credit and asking not to be given a vague answer, what would Mr. Coffey say? Will Mr. Coffey speak to that? Yesterday I got a response from the Minister for Finance in respect of the refund element of the tax credit. He said that if it was to be ended it would save the State approximately €240 million per annum. Is that refund element unique? Is it standard across the globe? Is it a standard part of the corporation tax system?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

As the research and development credit was outside the scope of the terms of reference of the review of the tax code, it is not something I have studied in massive detail. I am aware of the work done by the Department of Finance and I do look at the outturn figures for claims from the Revenue Commissioners. While it represented a cost of €708 million for 2015, the provisional figures for 2016 show a slight reduction to €674 million. It is not quite going toward the €1 billion mark which the Deputy might have indicated. It does seem to have stabilised after the dramatic increases in recent years. It is somewhere around €700 million.

In respect of dead weight loss, the size of the credit itself should not determine the answer. It should be the proportion and the level of additional activity it is generating. If a credit has a dead weight loss of 40%, whether the credit costs €20 million or €700 million it still represents a 40% loss with regard to the amount of credit offered. The scale should not really change that because 60% of the research and development activity is additional and arises as a result of the research and development credit, according the Department of Finance analysis.

On the refund element, the Revenue Commissioners have indicated that, in the main, the refunds in the area of research and development tend to arise in the case of smaller companies and Irish companies because to be eligible for a refund, the company's tax bill on its activities must be less than the amount of the research and development credit. For larger, more established companies that have other activities generating profits the research and development credit reduces their tax liability but it does not drive it down to levels where the refund element would be applicable. If there was to be a target for the refund element, based on what the Revenue Commissioners is indicating, it seems that it would be on newer, smaller and domestic companies. The hope is that by undertaking this research and development they will earn profits in the future and that we will be able to recoup the credit through increased tax payments in the future. The overall cost of the credit itself is quite substantial.

I do not have specific answers about what to do. One could look at capping the amount being claimed by any particular company but then one is, in a sense, penalising scale. If companies undertaking research and development are engaging in expenditure, hiring staff to undertake the work or incurring costs within the economy, and if we want more of this to happen, I am not sure that putting a cap on it would be a wise thing to do.

It would possibly be worth assessing the level of the credit in light of the US tax changes. We have a 12.5% rate for trading income. If companies are going to put costs here, they will only get a deduction worth 12.5%. This is one of the arguments for the introduction of the credit in the first place. If they put this cost in the US they would get a deduction at a 35% rate, so the 25% credit added to our 12.5% rate gives a value of 37.5%, which is comparable with what companies would receive in the US. The US rate has now been reduced significantly from 35% to 21% at the federal level, so it might be worth considering whether we are looking to move research and development activity from the US to here, in which case the level of the credit should be assessed, or whether we are competing with other markets where a 25% credit would still be required. We would look at the size of the claims being made by individual companies and whether the level of the credit may now be excessive relative to the competitor markets at which we are looking.

On that suggestion in terms of a recommendation on the level of claims, caps and so on, I agree with Mr. Coffey's proposal that we should be doing this annually or at least biennially because there have been dramatic shifts in terms of research and development tax credits in recent years and we need to keep up to speed with them. Is Mr. Coffey familiar with the document dump, one of those we get on budget day, which included an analysis of the research and development credit? I believe it came out on the day of budget 2017. There were recommendations in it in respect of the research and development tax credit but they were never given effect. Has Mr. Coffey looked at them?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

I have not looked at them. No.

The knowledge development box was supposed to complement the research and development tax credit. We have learned that there has been a very low rate of pick-up this year. It was confirmed to me by the Patents Office that not a single small or medium enterprise, SME, has applied for the scheme. We were told that the knowledge development box would be a major benefit for SMEs but none has applied. I know that the scheme is still open and that we may not get full data until later in the year but is Mr. Coffey concerned with that? What trends is he identifying in this regard?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

The recent figures from the Revenue Commissioners were surprising. They put the cost of the knowledge development box for 2016 at €5 million with fewer than ten claims. This does suggest that the uptake is very low. As the Deputy has said, it is possible for companies to make claims in respect of that tax year for another couple of months so that figure might grow, but I cannot see it growing that significantly. It may be that it takes time for these things to bed in. It might not be possible for companies to claim it quickly, within a year or two. It might take two, three or four years before we see the full impact of the scheme. Today's figures on the low uptake, particularly among domestic companies, were surprising.

The knowledge development box was announced with great fanfare back in 2014. It is now OECD-compliant, which means that it follows the modified nexus approach in that it only applies to expenditure on activity in Ireland. When it was initially introduced it was felt that it would cover all research and development spending made from Ireland, whether the activity was carried out here or not, but over time, our knowledge development box or patent box has become OECD compliant. Other EU countries have non-compliant patent boxes which apply to all spending and do not follow the modified nexus approach but ours does. Perhaps it is taking a while for companies to start the activity and to generate the profits. One can do the research and development but the benefit of the knowledge development box is that one gets a 6.25% effective rate rather than the 12.5% rate. Perhaps it just takes time, but I admit that I am surprised by the low level of claims we have seen in the Revenue figures to date.

There are two different topics I want to discuss on a separate issue. It is the issue of intangible assets. It may not be one of Mr. Coffey's main recommendations but one that I picked out of the report on the day it was published was the reintroduction of the 80% cap for the writing-off of intangible assets against profits. We are glad that the Finance Act acted on that issue. I have concerns, which I have previously discussed with Mr. Coffey in the committee, in respect of the fact that it only applied to assets that were brought onshore at a given point in time. I know that he has shared some concerns in that regard. Does he still hold the position that the 80% should also apply for future claims in respect of assets that were brought onshore at the time when the tax code allowed for 100%?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

I see no reason why the lower cap should not apply for all claims for capital assets and intangible assets regardless of when the asset was moved to Ireland.

As someone who has looked at this in detail and who has provided a lot of information to us as legislators, an argument has been made that this could cause reputational damage among companies that brought their intellectual property or intangible assets onshore at a time when the tax code said that they would have a 100% write-off against future profits. Would it not be bad form of the Government to say that the assets have already been brought here but the rules are being changed to only allow 80%?

I realise Mr. Coffey knows this but I am acting as devil's advocate - I am acting as the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, would. I do not agree with the argument but I believe it is important to tease out the potential consequences of such a shift.

Mr. Seamus Coffey

It could be that a person argues, as Deputy Pearse Doherty has argued, that this is a retrospective tax change after an asset has been brought to a jurisdiction. One could argue that a certain set of rules applied and now we are changing the rules. I do not agree that it is a retrospective tax change. A retrospective tax change has to change the amount of tax being paid. Changing the cap for the intangible assets simply changes the timing. One is still allowed to claim the full amount, but in any given year the amount one can claim is limited of 80% of taxable income in that year. It means that capital allowances are available but over a longer period.

To argue that it is a retrospective tax change, one must argue why the cap changes the amount of tax being paid over the period of the investment. I do not believe it is a retrospective tax change. When the cap was increased in 2015 – it went from 80% in 2014 to 100% in 2015 – it applied to all claims for intangible assets regardless of when the assets were moved. When we increased it we did it for everything, but when we reduced it we set a cut-off date.

I call on Mr. Coffey to comment on this point. This is my final question but this point is tangential. My colleagues have discussed the concentration of corporation tax receipts. It is well known that nine companies or groups account for nearly 40%. There is an argument that we should not be using those receipts, or at least a certain portion of them, on repeated expenditure or tax cuts. I would rather look at the argument from a different point of view. Let us suppose we stripped away foreign direct investment and Ireland had the European average for foreign direct investment. Would our tax receipts ring alarm bells given the fact that our domestic sector is not operating at the level it should be according to European norms? Does foreign direct investment mirror another problem?

My last point is separate but it relates to the potential for overheating the economy. Mr. Coffey provided analysis on overheating in the short term. One of the threats suggested is the shortage of housing. Would direct investment in housing not curb the potential for overheating in the economy?

This is tied to my previous point.

Deputy Doherty, please.

I will finish in ten seconds, Chairman. Given the volatility of corporation tax receipts, would it not be advisable to ensure those receipts are used not for recurrent expenditure or tax cut but to deal with the catch-up requirements of the economy? For example, should they be used to build the houses that we need to meet demand? Should they be used for other investment that was unavailable to us in the ten years of austerity?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

I will take some of those points but first I wish to make a final point on intangible assets following the previous question. One thing that has changed since the review was published is US tax reform. The reform introduced a minimum effective tax rate for foreign intangible income in the US. Regardless of what tax is paid in others jurisdictions, US companies have to pay a fixed level of tax in the US. Even if the tax in Ireland were higher, under the new US rules it would not necessarily increase the overall amount of tax these companies are paying. They would get credit in the US for that. It could be that the additional tax in Ireland would not have a negative impact on those companies with the assets here previously.

Deputy Pearse Doherty asked about the domestic-foreign split in the Irish economy. There is no doubt that foreign multinationals have a major impact on Irish economic statistics and at times, it can be difficult to identify what is happening in the domestic economy. There is no doubt but that the profitability of Irish companies is lower than the profitability of domestic companies in other EU countries. That is not to say that their contribution is lower. Irish companies generate significant employment and significant pay for the economy. The share of value added in Irish companies that goes to employees tends to be higher than in other EU countries. While the profits are lower, the overall outcome can be much the same with more simply going to workers. However, we are unique and different from an EU perspective given our dependence on foreign companies and the fact that they result in a major skew in our figures. From an Irish perspective, the figures mask the poor performance and profitability of Irish companies. Nevertheless, they are generating employment. We are getting taxes through them, including income tax, PRSI and USC. In overall terms, we do not collect significant amounts of corporation tax but that is simply because the profits are not generated. It is for others to suggest why the profits of Irish-owned companies seem far lower than the profits of domestically-owned companies in other countries. Anyway, the point holds.

Deputy Pearse Doherty asked about the whole issue of overheating and whether we could in a sense ring-fence corporation tax receipts for housing. I do not think that would be wise policy. Any suggestion of ring-fencing does not tend to work too effectively. If we want to prioritise housing, we should do it within whatever resources we believe are solid and sustainable. That is where our money should go, rather than creating circles, dancing rings around them and saying that a certain proportion of money is for this, that or the other. It is clearly the view that we have a housing issue in Ireland. If we believe additional resources should be devoted to address it, then we should simply do that.

Thank you.

I thank Mr. Coffey for his public service. Both the Chairman and I served on South Dublin County Council for several years. Mr. Coffey has discussed the macro or national figures. If I am right – the Chairman can confirm this - a total of ten companies are responsible for 90% of the commercial rate base of South Dublin County Council. Moreover, south Dublin is the location of the headquarters of Microsoft, Pfizer and such companies. As we get down to the nitty-gritty of other revenues, it seems there is substantial reliance on them. Will Mr. Coffey comment on that?

Mr. Coffey mentioned that revenue arising from this source may not be sustainable in the long term. Will he explain why not? We hear, for example, that Amazon wants to significantly increase its footprint in the country and but for planning anomalies, Apple would have significantly increased its footprint in the country. There is no indication of companies withdrawing.

A sizable number of these companies are on technology and pharmaceutical sides. If one leave out those sectors, what other sectors in the top 100 are most volatile? Do we have a sense that indigenous companies are included? I have in mind companies such as CRH and Ryanair. I am unsure whether the Ryanair headquarters is here for tax purposes. Are any indigenous companies in the top 100?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

I think the point on rates as a source of revenue is well made. This is something into which we are beginning to get insight. The Central Statistics Office has broken down the top 50 foreign-owned companies in its accounts. We get the impact on the amount of corporation tax they are paying. One of the tables includes a heading covering other taxes and production paid. This includes commercial rates, motor tax, the training and employment levy etc. In 2016, a total of €850 million was generated from the top 50 companies. The CSO accounts indicate these companies are paying €2.5 billion in corporation tax. The former figure is a sizable amount. It may only be a quarter of the corporation tax receipts, but it is close to €1 billion. These are significant receipts, especially for local authority rates. I am unsure about commercial water charges but commercial rates are certainly included in the figure. It is not only a matter of corporation tax.

The Revenue Commissioners have examined the other receipts we generate. They have said that when we look at the total of income tax, PRSI and USC, some €7.3 billion arises from multinationals in Ireland. We have vast corporation tax receipts and a significant portion of our income tax arises from them. The figure is close to a quarter of the overall receipts across those three headings.

We do not have a quarter of the employment based in multinational companies but because of the higher levels of pay in them, the proportion of income tax, USC, and PRSI, arising from them is quite large. We are getting some insight on that from the figures provided by the various agencies and the concentration in commercial rates and other payments, which may be worth noting.

On the issue of the sustainability of corporation tax and why one would argue that it might not be sustainable, one of the reasons is that we do not know why it happened. Nobody predicted in 2015 that corporation tax receipts would jump by 66% in one year. If there is such a large jump in such tax receipts in one year, the fear is that it could reverse quite quickly. Quite a wide variety of factors led to that. I do not believe all those factors are going to unwind in any given year. There was a timing issue involved but some of those factors could unwind. We face unknown developments in the future that could cause receipts to change, whether it be US tax reform, which appears to have worked in our favour up to now, changes at OECD level, which again appear to have worked in our favour up to now, and changes at EU level, the most significant of which it now appears are not going to happen. However, we cannot expect international changes will always work in our favour, but they have up to now.

On the sectors, we collect significant revenues from the information and communications technology, ICT, sector and I would say the broader manufacturing sector, rather than just including the pharmaceutical sector. That includes computer chips, medical devices and the manufacturing of soft drink concentrate across a wide range of areas. The financial sector is one that should get attention when considering corporation tax receipts. It is our second most important sector for receipts of corporation tax, which may be surprising when Irish banks pay and will continue to pay very low levels of corporation tax for a wide variety of reasons. I imagine much of that tax in the financial sector arises in the International Financial Services Centre, IFSC, and foreign-owned companies. It would be worth considering the financial sector as one that might need greater scrutiny. There was €1.8 billion of receipts in the financial sector in 2017. The companies and the types of activities in which those are based could be footloose, therefore, it would be worth considering what is going on there.

Regarding Irish companies, the Revenue Commissioners do not tell us the breakdown of the companies ranked in the top ten. Therefore, we do not know the big payers in the top ten companies. When it comes to the top 100 payers, the Revenue Commissioners have indicated there are some Irish companies among them. They indicated a figure of fewer than ten. They have not given us a precise number. Of the top 100 payers, there are some Irish companies among them. Fifty-one of those companies are US based. They far outweigh the Irish presence. The overall amount of tax paid is quite low. The top 100 companies paid €5.9 billion in 2017 and the fewer than ten Irish companies included among the top 100 paid €370 million. The payments of some individual companies would exceed that figure. Most of the receipts come from foreign companies.

I have a final question which Mr. Coffey might not expect to be asked and it is not a financial one. Those corporations carry quite degree of financial clout. They influence a great number of the budgetary decisions we make. Even at local authority level, they significantly influence the spend of a local authority on a day-to-day basis and that has been in a positive way up to now. If Mr. Coffey was able to measure the political clout those corporations have, what kind of political weight - I would not say moral authority - do they bring to decision-making, budgeting and budget planning in this country?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

I might have a surprising answer to what the Deputy thought was a surprising question but I think they would have relatively little in that respect. Our corporation tax regime does not seem to bounce around and change to the whims of those companies. We introduced a 12.5% rate. We announced it the 1990s, introduced it in the early 2000s and it has been in place ever since. There have not been significant changes to the underlying system. There have been some changes and I am sure the large companies and their representative bodies make submissions to the Department of Finance and try to get the ear of the Minister to make various changes, but I am not sure that Irish policy is dancing fully to the beat of the requirements of foreign companies. The evidence in the planning area, in particular, during the past few weeks, or perhaps months or years, however long that process has been going on, would suggest the influence may not be as large as some would believe.

There is no doubt we have developed an industrial policy based on attracting foreign companies to Ireland, a key plank of which is taxation but it is not the only plank. If taxation was the most important element, all those companies would locate in Bermuda where there is no tax, but they are locating in countries like Ireland which has a low corporation tax rate of 12.5%. However, a country needs to have much more than that to attract such investment. It needs to have the availability of staff and a reputation to attract the location of these large plants that generate all the commercial rates that the Deputy mentioned. If they are going to spend hundreds of millions or even billions of euro on these plants, they want them operating and producing the products they want to make. We have built a reputation over 30 or 40 years for delivering on these projects. It involves much more than just getting the ear of the Minister. Rather than focusing on the political side, one of the key actors is IDA Ireland, on the agency side, having an interaction with a company, not necessarily changing things but it is nice for those companies to know there is an agency they can contact and have a contact person within it with which they can deal. The activity there, as much as changing things in the background, is important. We can point to the change in the low tax rate but from our perspective, we are benefitting in that we are getting employment and investment. There is no doubt but that changes have been introduced on foot of proposals made by companies but I do not believe our regime is dancing to the beat of what any particular multinational might be saying.

I thank Mr. Coffey for that response.

I welcome Mr. Seamus Coffey and thank him for his presentation. I wish to raise a few points on which he might elaborate. Regarding the data in his summary report - this is a question I have asked him previously - is there a genuine comparator available of corporation tax paid and raised? Is there a genuine comparator available with other countries, particularly countries with regional government structures such as France, Italy, Spain and Germany, where the tax structure tends to be much more complicated than ours, which is the reason it often adds up to a very high rate but there may well be a great deal of regional investment in attracting foreign direct investment? That is obvious in Italy where they are going out of their way, as Mr. Coffey will be aware, to attract and compete with countries that are attracting social media and related companies, and that is tied into their view of what this levy might be. Is such a comparator available?

In terms of the graph on the second page of Mr. Coffey's presentation, I must confess I do not understand it. I am trying to pick out which country is which. I know Ireland is the big green one on the bottom of the graph. I note from that graph and the subsequent table detailing the net operating surplus of the non-financial corporations, bearing in mind what Mr. Coffey said earlier, that in the context of Ireland, for example, Luxembourg, the City of London and a number of other points in Europe have an enormous specialisation in finance capital of a very advanced and varied kind. Why then, is the financial sector omitted from this chart? Does that omission lead to some difficulties in terms of what one might call summary data from different countries and how they are rated? In that context, I wish to make a specific point which I have raised previously.

We have an unique situation where very significant parts of the financial sector, particularly the larger banks, lots of other financial institutions and a good part of the property development and construction sectors have significant loses being carried forward from the crash. The Revenue Commissioners gave me figures two years ago which the Committee of Public Accounts has been using again recently. The same figures were given to this committee by the then assistant Revenue Commissioner at that time. These figures from Revenue show that highly significant amounts of losses were carried forward. That means for those companies such as Bank of Ireland and AIB - just to pick the well known ones - as well as lots of others, that effectively there will be no tax payable by choice by some of the largest banks, and construction and property firms as well, for a long number of years. Let us bear in mind, a previous response that essentially this is a timing difference as opposed necessarily to a tax levying difference. In the here and now AIB and Bank of Ireland between them will have well over a billion euro in profit which otherwise would be taxable. Effectively from all the data I have seen, they are going to be able to choose whether they pay any corporation tax. Many people would understand this to be a scandal. I do understand the technical answer that this is a timing issue.

This is part of the loss of reputation of Ireland in terms of fairness of tax, in that somebody on PAYE has no choice about when he or she pays tax. It is levied on such people's income as it arises, whereas these banks can put off the evil day for a very long time. Does Mr. Coffey think this is damaging to the reputation of Ireland in terms of the current debates and discussions on tax? That is why I think a minimum effective tax rate, particularly in respect of financial services companies, is appropriate. I note Mr. Coffey's comments about the minimum effective rates. However some companies are paying nothing and will be paying nothing for a long time. Will Mr. Coffey share his views on that?

I was going to ask him about when the proposed tax changes by President Trump will come into effect? Mr. Coffey may be able to send some more information on that to the secretariat of the committee.

Arising from their work, do Mr. Coffey or his group have information on the number of disputed assessments against some of the major corporations? I have tabled a number of parliamentary questions to the Minister for Finance on the issue. There seems to be very limited auditing of some of these companies. From the graphs provided, one gets the impression that certain sectors are in a different position for reasons of complexity or just the sheer size of them. Is that the case? There seems to be a number of settlements being made-----

Deputy, I would like the witness to have the opportunity the answer the questions.

Chairman, this is a related aspect and is the last part of the question. This is a follow-up to the questions I have put to him on previous occasions. Recent figures on the settlements with Revenue, which have become available in response to parliamentary questions I tabled, suggest that the Revenue Commissioners are settling in favour of the companies. Is that to do with the reputation or other issues? I do not expect an immediate response to my final question but it would be interesting if the committee could have an overview of what Mr. Coffey believes are the key variables that will arise cross-Border in the context of Brexit. We have financial and other services in the North and in the Republic and that tax landscape could be very significant as well, particularly as the DUP has suggested, as well as Sinn Féin in the North - if they ever get together again to form a government - that they will move to much lower rates of tax.

Mr. Seamus Coffey

The questions are very interesting. On the comparisons with other countries, international comparisons are fraught with difficulty as to how ones goes about doing it. Then one has to add the complexity of regional variation and that would make it even more complex. A simple way of doing a comparison on corporation tax to try to scale the relevant importance would be to do it on a per capita basis. If one looks at the level of corporation tax that is being collected - in the case of Ireland we can make a comparison for 2016 - in that year corporation tax is approximately €1,600 on a per capita basis. For every person resident in the country, €1,600 of corporation tax was paid and one can say that 80% of the tax came from multinationals and so on. If one were to look at large countries such as Germany or France, they collected €1,000 and €900 in corporation tax per capita; respectively. Even though we may have a lower rate and we may look at the variety of reasons we collect so much, we are collecting more on a per capita basis. The chart is trying to highlight some of the issues around the effective tax rates. It is not necessarily a matter of identifying the individual countries but on the naming of the countries, they are ranked by their outturns for the last year for which we have data, which is 2016. The countries towards the top would have the highest effective rates and the countries towards the bottom would have the lowest, with Ireland being right down at the bottom.

The reason the financial sector is omitted is that much of the focus tends to be on the non-financial corporations, that is, the traditional companies which were set up under foreign direct investment rules such as manufacturing and ICT companies. A similar analysis can be done for financial corporations but for issues of brevity, the financial sector was omitted and the graph shows the effective tax rate on the profits of non-financial companies and the fact that the rate has fallen in Ireland. I think that is linked to another question posed by Deputy Burton as to why the economic statistics are showing the effective tax rate in Ireland to be 8%. It may not be a surprise that it fell in 2008 and 2009, but I think we might have expected it to rise as the economy has recovered and some of the losses have washed out of the system. It is clear that in some instances these losses are not washing out of the system. One of the reasons could be the scale of the losses incurred in 2008 and 2009 in respect of financial companies and second, the continued accumulation of losses through a variety of reasons. It might not necessarily be trading losses, but it could be losses generated by unused capital allowances, so that companies have deductions larger than their income and those deductions could be capital allowances or it could be down to the treatment of capital spending. One could have what we term accelerated capital allowances, where the tax depreciation might exceed the real depreciation of the asset and one area where that might arise is in relation to aircraft leasing and the treatment of the capital expenditure on the acquisition of aircraft for leasing. As for the financial companies themselves and the level of losses, I am not sure I would use such emotive terms as the Deputy has about the companies not paying tax. I think the use of losses carried forward would be a pretty standard feature across all tax jurisdictions, such as capital allowances for intangibles. One could look at putting a cap on the amount that could be used in any one year to establish the minimum effective tax rate and rather than being able to offset 100% of one's income, so that even though one might be generating substantial profits, the use of losses carried forward can offset any tax liability that may fall due. One could limit that to 75% or 80%. That would not be changing the amount of losses that can be used but it would be extending the losses over a particular period and one would be generating some tax revenue in any particular year. An alternative proposal would be to have a time cut-off so that if one has not used the losses within a specified period, they can no longer be carried forward. I am not sure whether that is in place. It is an option.

Some countries do have them in the sense that the cap on the amount can be used in any given year. From a public perception, it can be difficult to get across that much of it is illusory because we do own the banks. The losses carried forward are an asset on their balance sheets such that if we do sell our stake in the banks, we will receive a higher price for them. If the asset is reduced or removed, the price received will be lower. While there may be an outcry about the lack of tax being paid, it will show up in Government revenue one way or the other. There is no doubt that changes could be made to alter the way this looks. There is also the banking levy which is applied across all banks, according to their size, and it is generating some revenue. I imagine that if there were to be changes to the way losses were used, one consequence could be the removal of the banking levy such that what we might gain on the corporation tax side might be lost on the banking levy side and we could definitely use the price to be gained if we chose to sell the assets. These are choices that are available, but the consequences would have to be worked through.

The settlement has been made on some of the correlative adjustments. I am not necessarily sure I would argue Revenue is settling in favour of companies. Generally, what happens is that profits and tax being paid in Ireland are being claimed by another country, but the claim comes through the company.

The Revenue Commissioners appear to be putting up their hands.

Mr. Seamus Coffey

We have paid. If a company gets money back in Ireland, it is paid in another country. There are issues related to the timeline of the process. It is hard to see the potential cost and Revenue appears reluctant to put potential costs on claims. They could be substantial and significant, but until such time as claims are concluded, which could be four, five, six or seven years down the line, we cannot be sure of the likely outcome. However, there is potential for them to be quite significant. It is worth keeping an eye on the matter. Some of the replies to parliamentary questions have provided an valuable insight into what has happened in the past. There is no doubt that there is potential for there to be a risk in the future. Unless Revenue outlines what is happening or could happen, we are unlikely to get much of an insight into the matter.

Does Mr. Coffey get information from Revenue on the likely value or cost of the correlative adjustments?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

No, I do not get any information from the Revenue Commissioners.

If Mr. Coffey was to request the information, would he be likely to get it because I have asked for it, but Revenue is reluctant to give it to me?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

I would be very surprised if I did.

Revenue has given me some information which I think is the first information it has disclosed. What is the-----

I am sorry, but the Deputy must conclude.

What is the additional cost Ireland will be paying based on the income figures versus our required contributions to the European Union?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

This is related to the profits linked with the intangible assets coming to Ireland. Our contributions to the European Union are based on the gross profits. Companies can claim deductions to reduce their net taxable income and reduce it significantly such that we end up collecting very little additional tax on huge gross profits. On the intangible assets that have been brought onshore recently, we are probably looking at additional EU contributions of around €200 million per annum. The additional corporation tax collected in that regard is close to zero. As the capital allowances run out, we may recoup some of the cost in the future, but currently we are paying approximately €200 million in EU contributions based on our gross national income, on which no additional corporation tax is being collected.

I welcome the last point made by Mr. Coffey because it deals with one of the issues I wanted to raise with him. Is the intangible assets issue not a big scam in the light of the higher contributions the Irish people have to pay to the European Union? As stated by Mr. Coffey, companies get to write off gross profits resulting from these intangible assets as an allowance. They can effectively name their own price for these assets. Is it not the case that they are paying one of their own subsidiaries for the assets such that whatever profits they make they set as the price tag for their use?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

That is exactly what they should do.

That is what they do. They make up the price.

Mr. Seamus Coffey

They cannot make up the profits made. The price should reflect the profits made.

How are the assets valued?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

It is based on how much profit is made.

They can put any value they like on them. It appears that the value they put on them is just enough to make sure they do not pay any tax. Effectively, they write their own tax bills, but we then make additional EU contributions which are based on gross trading profits, rather than taxable income which is zero.

Mr. Seamus Coffey

I do not dispute the final point made by the Deputy. He is correct that our EU contributions are based on gross outcome. Figures from the Revenue Commissioners suggest the net income is nil such that the additional corporation tax is nil in the years for which we have data. On pricing, Irish legislation requires companies to value assets at the market price. This should be linked with the profit generated by them. The assets are generated initially by the US tax code that allows companies to divide their profits into foreign and domestic for US tax purposes. Up to now, the foreign profits had been declared on sandy beaches in the Caribbean but changes in Ireland and coming down the track internationally are limiting companies' ability to do this, rightly so. Therefore, companies are moving assets to where they have substance.

The price should reflect the profits being generated. For the early years, the capital allowance available and profit generated are similar, which suggests the pricing is reasonably accurate. In other words, the valuation is reflective of the profit being generated. If there was a mismatch such that the capital allowance being claimed was much larger than the profit being generated, it would suggest there was a problem and companies would be able to claim capital allowances long into the future if an excess price was being applied to them. The fact that they are close means that in the future if the companies become even more successful and generate even more profits, the capital allowance will remain fixed. It is based on the initial expenditure outlay to purchase the asset, in respect of which a company may claim an amount each year. If the profits increase, a company cannot bump up its claim for a capital allowance because the allowance is fixed based on the type of depreciation chosen. Also, the capital allowances will run out at some point.

I share some of the Deputy's concerns, but the legislation does require an asset to be valued at the market price. The data available to date suggest the price and profit are aligned, but the scale and the impact on our EU contributions are undoubted.

I will agree to disagree with Mr. Coffey on the first point. This is akin to Richard Boyd Barrett setting up a company and then setting up a subsidiary and calling it Richard Boyd Barrett 2, following which one charges the other for the brilliant idea and claims a tax deduction on the basis of it.

Mr. Seamus Coffey

Only for the United States allowing this, it would not happen.

Imagine if there were two Richard Boyd Barretts.

Mr. Seamus Coffey

We do not see this arising with companies in other countries. Other countries have similar regimes in place. German, French and Italian companies are not moving intangible assets to Ireland to benefit from this regime because they cannot generate assets to split their profits. It is a function of the US tax code and the US approach to transfer pricing that allows them initially to split their profits into foreign and domestic. That is the crux of the matter. If they could not do this, they would not end up here. Ireland is central to it because that is where the assets are moving.

We will move on from that issue. I thank Mr. Coffey for the graph which is very helpful in getting to the heart of matters. Even if I do not always agree with his interpretation of the facts, I thank him for setting them out. For me, the big issue is the spectacular rise in gross trading profits we have witnessed in recent years and which doubled between 2011 and 2015. To me, the dirty big secret of the Irish economic story is the spectacular rise in profits during many of the years when the country was on its knees and crippled by austerity.

We have been calling for a minimum effective corporation tax rate at least since 2012 because of the enormous gap between gross trading profits and corporation tax yield. When the revenue figure of €6 billion is compared to €144 million paid in corporation tax, it equates to a tax rate of 4.5% approximately, not 10% or 12.5%. Even if it is put against net trading income, the figure is approximately 6.5%. That is the effective rate and a huge proportion of the yield is being paid by a small number of companies that pay an effective rate that is much lower. Is it not clear when one considers the allowances that permit them to write down their taxable income that they find loopholes and exploit them? Capital allowances for intangible assets jumped between 2014 and 2015 from €18 billion to €46 billion. The Government creates the loophole and they jump in as part of a massive tax evasion scam. Similarly, deductions in trade charges jumped from €16 billion to €23 billion. That presumably is intergroup transactions between subsidiaries of the same corporations. Then we have the research and development tax relief mentioned by Mr. Coffey. Are they not just bloody big loopholes that need to be closed through having an effective rate because companies will always exploit them? No matter what adjustments or tweaking the State manages to make after the fact, unless there is an effective rate, they will always be one step ahead.

Mr. Seamus Coffey

I agree that is where the focus should be. At times, we get caught up in looking at the impact of various minor issues, but, as the Deputy said, towards the top of the table, once one starts with gross profits and examines the tax adjustments made, the sums involved are huge, particularly for capital allowances. The provisional figures Revenue has for 2016 show another jump relative to the figures for 2015. The figure of €46 billion for 2015 could be close to €60 billion for 2016 when the final figure is published. It has indicated that it might move in that direction and the issue should be explored.

Are we unique in what we offer in Ireland? Why do the claims and sums seem to be so large relative to the size of the economy? When it comes to intangible assets, our regime is similar to that in place in other countries. As part of the review, I examined the regimes elsewhere and at a top-line level, they are similar. The common consolidated corporate tax base proposal covers intangible assets and seems to mirror the provisions set out in the tax code. There must be something different in the Irish regime that is attracting companies here on such a scale. Other countries do not see the bringing onshore of intangible assets that Ireland is seeing, including assets worth hundreds of billions of euro and transactions that exceed GDP. That does not happen in other countries. We must try to understand why this is happening. There could be benign reasons. The OECD process is all about aligning profit with substance and it may be that companies have the substance here and are moving their intangible assets here in order that the profits linked with the assets are also linked with the substance or the Irish regime could have an unusually attractive feature that is not obvious to me following a top-line analysis.

The Deputy mentioned trade charges. We should consider changes to trade charges and royalty payments and, in particular, update our transfer pricing rules. In many cases, royalty payments are going to Caribbean islands where the companies do not have substance. In the next few years we should update our transfer pricing rules and eliminate the ability to use them as a deduction for Irish tax purposes if the payments are made to warm sandy beaches. That should be done by the end of 2020.

The Deputy also referred to capital allowances and made a point about the prices being set. While legislation requires a market price to be used, we should consider extending transfer pricing legislation to capital transactions. Currently, transfer pricing only applies to trading transactions where one is buying goods or a service from somebody. Equally, it should apply when an asset is being bought. While implicitly there is a requirement to use the market price, it should be explicitly applied in legislation to all capital transactions. That would perhaps offer us the opportunity to examine these large amounts and ascertain whether they are appropriate or companies are exploiting existing legislation. That is where the focus should be. We cannot be definitive regarding the level of exploitation, but the size of the figures indicates that they are worthy of examination.

I welcome Mr. Coffey using technical language to describe my general accusation against corporations as being tax evaders, but he is saying in a nice way that we need to examine this issue. I agree. The Comptroller and Auditor General has reported on it and Mr. Coffey has reinforced the point about the over-reliance on a small number of corporations and that we can only be sure of this income in the medium term. This is an accident waiting to happen and at some point there will be a glitch. The domination of a relatively small number of companies at a global level will not last. Historically, it has not lasted; therefore, that makes Ireland vulnerable. The need for us to develop the domestic economy and ensure a sustainable economic and industrial base is critical. I read a number of articles, possibly written by Mr. Coffey, which highlighted that the amount going into research and development was not being matched by investment. There are more tax breaks for research and development than investment generated, while the productivity figures again suggest a gross distortion because they are ridiculous. Even though Irish workers are productive and so on, they are not so productive that the mad productivity figures can be explained. They can only be explained by gross distortions consequent on companies distorting the figures. Is it not urgent to transition the economy away from this dependence and grab a little more of the tax revenue to invest in developing a sustainable economy?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

There is no doubt that the dependence on multinationals is significant, but in mitigating the risk, it is better to have the employment and investment and collect tax revenue. It would be more difficult to develop an indigenous sector without the foreign multinational sector. For the first 40 or 50 years following the foundation of the State, we tried to develop the indigenous sector by cutting ourselves off from the rest of the world and it proved to be an utter failure. In the past few decades we have witnessed the ability to turn the economy around by attracting investment from abroad. The investment has been successful, but perhaps some of the benefits for the indigenous sector envisaged have not materialised. There were hopes companies would form clusters and that Irish companies would begin to co-operate with larger foreign companies before breaking out on their own. We have not seen that happen, but we have seen the continued arrival of US companies with the benefits it brings. On developing the indigenous sector on an ongoing basis, it is not an either-or choice. We have been relatively unsuccessful in developing world leaders in comparison to other countries. Our companies may be dwarfed on a global level by the presence of US companies such as Apple and Google which originated in a huge market and presence of which here has a global reach that most countries do not have.

Does Mr. Coffey think there has been a worrying preponderance of special purpose vehicles, SPVs?

I think we have one of the highest number of registered SPVs in Europe. These are, in many cases, companies that just appear and then disappear and do not really leave much behind. In the film industry, for example, companies appear and then disappear but they get a lot of tax relief. There are other types of SPVs in operation here too. Is Mr. Coffey concerned about them?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

In the context of the film sector, I am not particularly concerned because that seems to be how that sector operates. There are different people involved in the making of every film, whether in front of or behind the camera and films tend to be standalone projects. It is not like a company making the same product over and over again with the same staff. I do not have concerns about SPVs in the film industry. In relation to SPVs in general, Ireland has tried to develop niches in some areas of financial services like bond issuance and other elements that seem to have an oversized presence in Ireland. We are trying to be a global leader in this so they do tend to be oversized here. There are various mechanisms that different types of SPVs use, particularly in the property investment area, upon which there has been legitimate focus in recent years and changes have been made. I do not see them being an issue in the film sector, unless one goes back to the studio-based approach whereby employees have an employment contract with a studio and go from film to film. That industry seems to have changed.

I am sorry that I was not present to hear Mr. Coffey's opening statement. The benefit of being the last contributor is that most of my questions have been asked and answered already but I seek clarification on a number of issues. While we must bear in mind that our GDP figures can be exaggerated slightly because of the multinationals operating here, we can still see a strong recovery through other indicators including tax receipts, employment figures and so on. Eight out of every ten jobs created last year were outside Dublin which indicates that regional growth is starting to happen now, on foot of the Action Plan for Jobs. We are heavily dependent on foreign direct investment and international companies but is that sustainable in the medium term? I do not believe that many of the multinationals located here could just leave the country at short notice, causing a sudden downturn, although some may do so. Google, for example, employs between 6,000 and 8,000 people here which represents a substantial investment in our small island. I do not see a company like that being able to just leave the country. Data centres are being developed here. I do not want to get into the situation in Athenry which ended up being an issue to do with the courts rather than the planning system. The proposed data centre project seemed to go through the local authority and An Bord Pleanála processes at an acceptable pace. That case showed how one person rather than the planning system itself can hold up a planning application.

I have heard Mr. Coffey being interviewed on numerous occasions. In an interview last August, he spoke about the benefit to Ireland of American companies being located here. He said that they employ approximately 250,000 people directly and another 100,000 indirectly through logistics and other services like catering. Apart from the corporation tax receipts, there are other benefits to be gained from US companies locating here. Overall, FDI-based employment has been hugely beneficial for this country.

Deputy Pearse Doherty raised the issue of funding for housing infrastructure earlier. Money is being allocated for that. There is no need to ring-fence funding because it has already been allocated. The local authorities have just published their targets and money is being allocated to specific areas. In some cases, development will begin as soon as the design and tender appraisals are completed. Under the Project Ireland 2040 plan, for the first time we will link a spatial plan with an investment plan. We want to see regional growth, with 75% of new jobs being created in the regions rather than in Dublin. We want to continue to be competitive as an island. In that context, does Mr. Coffey have any concerns or worries? Are there areas to which he would direct funding immediately?

Mr. Coffey has already responded to questions raised about research and development and tangible tax so I will not go back over those areas. He spoke of the sustainability of corporation tax receipts in the medium term but what are his predictions after that? I have read most of the reports he has produced and have a number of podcasts by him which I listen back to on a regular basis. He has the type of voice that is easy to listen to, which is beneficial.

There has been huge investment across our public sector. However, there are deficits in particular sectors and additional funding will be required for front-line staff in education and other sectors. That funding is being made available because everyone agrees that education underpins equality. However, we must recognise that the fiscal rules determine how we deal with windfall taxes or new tax revenues. Decisions that we make in the context of any budget must be based on income that sustainable and not one-off in nature. Mr. Coffey has said that sustainability is not an issue in the medium term but what are his predictions beyond that?

Mr. Coffey must get out his crystal ball now.

Mr. Seamus Coffey

The Deputy has raised a number of points. In terms of the regional employment issue, while we are seeing an increased dispersal of employment, I would caution that it is measured on where the person lives rather than where the job is created. A person could be living in one region but working in another. The increases in employment around the country, from the south west to the west, the Border and the south east regions would suggest that we are seeing a spread. However, if we have a large amount of employment being created in regions close to Dublin, it could simply be an issue of commuting. That said, I take the point that there has been an improvement in the regional spread of employment in recent years.

On the issue of sustainability and the presence of companies in Ireland, the fear is not so much that the companies will leave. I agree with Deputy Bailey that many of them are embedded here. The real issue relates to the tax base and the amount of tax being collected, which increased very rapidly in 2015 without an accompanying increase in substance or employment. We saw a huge rise in gross profits, to which Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett referred; that seemed to happen very rapidly. That element of it could be subject to a reversal but the employment itself does seem to be quite embedded. We are talking about industries which spend substantial amounts on their plant and their operations in Ireland. Some of them, like Google, may be somewhat footloose in that their staff may require no more than a good computer and a desk but in the manufacturing sector, companies are spending hundreds of millions, if not billions of euro on plant that simply will not be moved.

The contribution of US companies to Ireland is significant. We strongly outperform our EU partners in attracting investment from US companies. In terms of their contribution here, US companies pay their staff €6 billion a year and spend another €4 billion on indirect employees who supply goods and services to them. The tangible investment they make in terms of building things in Ireland, rather than the intangible investment from which we do not really benefit, amounts to between €3 billion and €3.5 billion per annum. On top of that, we have the corporation taxes they pay which look like topping between €4.5 and €4 billion per year. Apart from corporation taxes, as Deputy Lahart mentioned, they also pay rates, the national employment levy and other taxes that arise from their presence here. All told, we are looking at a figure that is not far off €20 billion every year, which is a huge contribution to the Irish economy. It is a risk to be so dependent on a small group of companies but I am not sure that it is a risk I would be seeking to mitigate. Rather, I would be looking to develop other sectors. Long may we receive €20 billion a year from a group of companies that are choosing to operate in Ireland. While it does bring concerns that they might leave, the primary concern would be about the tax base, which is mobile. If proposals at EU level to shift the tax base from the country of production to the country of consumption through the Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base, CCCTB, were implemented, the tax contributions of these companies would drop quite dramatically although the employment would not move as quickly.

We have built up a reputation over 30 or 40 years of delivering on large projects for these companies and other countries cannot replicate that reputation overnight. The risk to companies leaving is probably over the medium to long term; I do not see that arising.

On the investments we are making and the choices, as mentioned earlier I think housing is a significant issue. If these companies are going to choose to come to Ireland they need somewhere for their staff to live. We have not got this right in decades. We either have too much activity going on or, as in recent years, too little activity. We hope to get that back to a happy medium and see a pickup in activity over the coming years. That is obviously an issue that arises on the list. Tax is not enough to get a company to move investment to a country. It is probably in the top ten. It might not even be in the top five, but it is there. Companies need the infrastructure and the available staff. If the staff have nowhere to live the companies will not come.

Education is a key issue. Coming from that sector, I recognise that we have done well in developing Irish talent for companies in the manufacturing sector. The ICT sector has been successful in attracting staff in from abroad. There may be a disconnect between what is happening in those two sectors. Given the employment here, that money is working through the economy.

It is hard to make predictions. I think the investment is reasonably solid. There were risks with the US tax changes, particularly some that were mooted 18 months or two years ago. There was talk about a destination-based cashflow tax, an import duty, whereby if a company makes something in Ireland and sells it back into the US, a tax would be due on that product going back into the US. We are a huge supplier of pharmaceuticals, medical devices, soft drink concentrate and a wide range of other products that are manufactured in Ireland for export back to the US. If that destination-based cashflow tax had been introduced, it would have had severe implications for those companies' operations in Ireland. It would have become much more attractive for them to make those products in the US and avoid that import duty. That did not materialise when the tax reforms landed on us in December and most of the changes seem to have been relatively benign from an Irish perspective.

I see the CT holding up for a while. We seem to be a in a sweet spot when it comes to investment, employment and tax. We cannot expect it to continue forever. We seem to have tailwinds at our back in a wide variety of areas and we should be prepared that those winds will not always be pushing us along. That is not to say I expect things to crash or fall. However, the improvements have been so large in the past couple of years that we cannot expect those improvements to continue and we should be cautions in that regard. An outright reversal of many of these factors is unlikely, but we cannot bank on these continuing to increase.

May I ask a question?

I am going to ask a few questions if the Deputy does not mind.

Following up on that last point, we should certainly be prudent in how we project future rises. We should be prudent in how we make expenditure commitment. I was in business for 20 years before my election to this House. Everybody knows that companies make profits in some years and do not in others. We cannot rely on the guaranteed nature of taxation yield from companies' profits. The same applies to almost every other tax head. Our concern seems to be disproportionately focused on this particular tax head. I do not see the potential for the types of leaps in growth we have had since 2015. Like Mr. Coffey, I do not see anything to indicate a catastrophic fall-off in the foreseeable future.

Mr. Coffey has referred to this 2015 leap and keeps being polite about it. There is almost an inference that it is not due to real profits. I ask him to outline why we had that leap? Is it the tax situation coming to benefit us? Is there an element of international economic growth? There was obviously a reason for it on which most people can speculate. At the heart of it I would like to get Mr. Coffey's breakdown of it. Based on his answer, where is the vulnerability for it to fall away? Is it economic downturn, tax change or what is it?

I have a real problem at times with the discussion on this matter. Mr. Coffey can tell me if I am wrong on this. Ireland is a very small country with a tiny population. We have very few large Irish companies. If we had Irish companies of sufficient scale and nature to generate the types of profits to yield substantial corporation tax, they would have to be multinational and would operate almost entirely outside their home base. There would be very little difference between the behaviour of an Irish company in that bracket and a multinational - as we call them - operating here. There is one very large aviation company. There is one very long-standing Irish multinational in various strands of construction, business and whatever. If we changed regime in the morning, they would be as likely to move as any foreign direct investment company. Do we focus too much on whether it comes from outside or whether it is Irish? The reality is there is continuity because of - Mr. Coffey alluded to it - a very stable and simple corporation tax policy that encourages these companies to stay here. We also have by and large a very stable political system that enables them to stay here. That is the key driver. I do not think this emphasis on inward investment versus Irish makes a lot of sense to me.

I return to a comment from another Deputy. Surely it would cause more reputational damage to Ireland in the tax area if we were to abolish the long-standing practice of dealing with a company's losses just because we did not like the sectoral area in which that company operated and had a chip on our shoulder about it. For many SMEs, carrying forward losses is a well-known principle. There would be grave reputational damage if we changed that.

Mr. Seamus Coffey

The Chairman asked why I keep focusing on 2015. The prime reason for focusing on it is that we had a 6% rise in the corporation tax yield in just one year. The corporation tax yield can be volatile, but that increase was unprecedented here and probably internationally without any policy change. The Chairman spoke about the stability of our regime. We did not change our regime wholly in 2015 leading to that huge surge in receipts.

There were a number of factors. The improvement in the domestic economy led to more corporation tax being paid by Irish companies. Companies that had losses in 2014 did not have losses in 2015. There was an increase in corporation tax paid on capital transactions. Most companies pay their capital gains tax through corporation tax. It appears as a corporation tax payment. Outside of, I think, profits on development land, all profits on capital transactions appear through corporation tax. However, these only tended to add a couple of hundred of million euro to what was a €2.3 billion increase.

The OECD BEPS project may have had a role, particularly for the multinational companies. With the introduction of country-by-country reporting and beginning to collect data from 2015-16 some companies may have adjusted the previous practices which would have been in line with what was required legislatively. As we have seen over recent years, companies that get themselves in the spotlight for tax purposes can find it hard to get themselves out of it. It may have been that companies were being proactive rather than reactive in trying to do something that helps prevent them being in the headlines. It might have been that certain activities were moved to Ireland resulting in greater taxes being paid without an impact on employment or investment. The fear would be that if it is possible to have increased profits and increased tax payments seemingly happen on a very quick basis, those things could be reversed.

In 2015 and 2016, the fear was that it could have been a quick reversal. Here we are, however, in the middle of 2018 and the €6.9 billion collected in 2015 became €7.3 billion in 2016 and €8.2 billion in 2017. Not only have they not been reversed, they have actually increased. The warnings about a quick reversal have not materialised to date. We have just seen the receipts continue to rise. The focus tends to be on it because it was a level shift and lots of things happened in 2015 that sparked much attention. Our GDP surged as well. We had the famous 26% growth. Following that conversation with Deputy Boyd Barrett, I would not necessarily link those. We had an increase in GDP and the emphasis there should be on the first word - the gross part of GDP. That might not necessarily have led to increases in tax payments.

Some of those factors, however, that happened in 2015 might unwind but they may not all unwind at the same time. I refer to links to Irish companies, and their improved profits, the reduction in the number of companies claiming losses, the increase in tax related to capital transactions and various other things that all seem to have happened together in 2015. That 66% surge-----

Is Dr. Coffey saying that while those three strands that he mentioned come together, that €2 billion or so of it was effectively and realistically just a repositioning of taxation into Ireland by the OECD?

Mr. Seamus Coffey

Yes. A large share of it was.

The real question on vulnerability is - and this, the wind at the back thing, is probably referred to often - if there is a second round of changes in eight or ten years time, until we would see how that would play out would we have exactly the same scale of vulnerability for us or possibly against us? We would not know until we saw the outcome.

Mr. Seamus Coffey

Why did the OECD start the base erosion and profit shifting, BEPS, project? It happened due to a G8 meeting of large countries, including France and Germany, that were under budgetary pressure and looking for increased revenue. They said the rules for the taxation of international companies had to change and let us get somebody to do something about it. They got the OECD to do something about it and that has been done through the BEPS project. Now, the question of who won from that project is being looked at. Thus far, Ireland has been a significant winner. There could be a second round of BEPS and it may look to see what factors caused Ireland to win and whether it could be changed again?

On Irish companies, the profits of some of those previously mentioned would not be wholly part of the Irish tax base. A company in the construction sector will have tax due where the construction activity happens. The airline industry is slightly different. When it comes to domestic flights, the tax due on those profits is due in the country in which the domestic flight occurred. If the flights are international, however - and it does not matter from what country they originate - the tax will be due in the country where that company is resident. If a company flies from England to France or Germany, and that company is resident in Ireland, then that company's profits will form part of the Irish tax base. They are an important part of the Irish corporation tax base. Ryanair, for example, makes €1 billion in profits per annum. I do not know how much of that is in the Irish tax base but much of it is.

It is dwarfed by the scale of profits that the multinationals are making here but it is significant. When we talk about Irish companies, we are not referring so much to Irish multinationals and their operations abroad - it more the SME and the pure domestic sector. I refer to trying to make those companies more successful and from an exporting point of view in particular. We may perhaps have drawbacks that have limited our ability to expand our exporting base. On losses, the treatment is well established around the world. I am not sure of the reputational damage but there is nothing unusual about using losses for companies.

I am afraid I must finish the meeting as we have another committee - of which I am a part - coming into this room in 15 minutes. We are going to have to draw this to a conclusion. Can Deputy Boyd Barrett fit in a question in under a minute?

I can. Dr. Coffey mentioned housing as a difficulty. Does he agree that precarious employment is another difficulty? I ask that because there was a time-----

The Deputy has 30 seconds.

-----when there was much competition for jobs. We are now suffering major labour shortages. That is why I mentioned the film industry. At the moment, because of the special purpose vehicle, SPV, structure, employment in that sector is completely precarious. People now have choices, however. They can leave the country or they can work in another sector. There is a danger that capacity can be run down in areas where we need to build it up. Should we be demanding greater conditionality around conditions of employment linked to tax reliefs? If there is going to be a tax relief, should it not actually guarantee sustainable employment over the long term?

I must limit the time available to Dr. Coffey as well.

Mr. Seamus Coffey

Precarious employment is a live issue. It is worthy of consideration. In the Irish data, and perhaps internationally, we are not seeing an increase in the types of employment contracts classified as precarious. While it is there, we are not seeing a significant rise. Even in Ireland, perhaps because of the choice of employment available, things like part-time employment are beginning to fall, whereas full-time employment is increasing. Linking tax relief to the nature of the employment - we could look at the type of companies - but I think it would be difficult to do because we want the company to exist in the first place rather than limiting its ability to start up and get the employment. Some companies, even if they are established, may shut down for legitimate reasons. I am not sure we can change the international way that the film sector has moved in recent decades by altering the tax structures. I agree that precarious employment is worth considering. I do not see evidence of it increasing and I am not sure the corporation tax code is the way to tackle it.

I thank Dr. Coffey for his contribution. As always, it has been a useful and helpful session. All of the members - including those who were here earlier as well - appreciate the time and information that Dr. Coffey has given to the committee. He knows now at least where some of his podcast listeners are located.

The select committee adjourned at 4.30 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 30 May 2018.
Barr
Roinn