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Committee on Budgetary Oversight díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 24 Nov 2021

Inflation: Discussion (resumed)

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We now move to our engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland. On behalf of the meeting, I welcome Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf, Governor of the Central Bank of Ireland, and Dr. Mark Cassidy, director of economics and statistics, and thank them for attending the meeting. The committee is examining the issue of inflation and this is the third of three engagements on this topic. The intention of today's engagement is to discuss drivers of inflation, policy responses, budget 2022 and the impact of inflation. I invite Mr. Makhlouf to make his opening statement.

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

Dr. Cassidy and I welcome the opportunity to appear before the committee today to discuss the important topic of inflation. Last year, inflation was very subdued across the euro area - even turning negative for several months as economies closed down to slow the spread of the virus. Coinciding with the easing of health restrictions and increased economic activity, inflation turned positive again in 2021. We know that many people are feeling these very real price increases, in particular across their energy and fuel bills.

Overall, increasing inflation is being driven by three factors, namely, higher energy prices, a rebound in prices for some goods and services that fell sharply during the pandemic and a rebound in demand, which is meeting global supply bottlenecks in both inputs and transportation. At first, inflation developments in Ireland lagged behind those of the euro area due in part to a slower phased re-opening of the economy but in general, they have followed global trends over the past couple of years. Increases in global energy prices have been a major driver of inflation in recent months with inflation reaching 5.1% in Ireland in October and 4.1% in the euro area on a year-on-year basis. Energy prices have both a direct and indirect effect on prices people have to pay for goods and services. The direct effects on home heating or electricity and personal transport fuels - driven in particular by changes in energy prices in international energy markets - tend to pass through quickly to consumers. Indirect effects occur via the impact on business costs and tend to be passed on more slowly and only partly to consumers.

The rise in energy price inflation during the first half of 2021 follows on from the fall in prices in 2020 at the onset of the pandemic, that is, the so-called "base effects". Given that the prices of some goods and services fell during 2020 as governments imposed lockdowns, comparing prices from now - when economies have reopened - to last year can produce a sharp increase in measured inflation even if prices are recovering to pre-pandemic levels. These base effects were larger for Ireland compared with some other euro area countries simply because prices fell by more in 2020 in Ireland. However, these base effects are playing a smaller role more recently with energy price levels now exceeding those before the pandemic. While highly volatile and often influenced by geopolitical factors, market expectations are for wholesale energy prices to plateau in 2022 before declining gradually.

As well as energy prices, there are three other components of the Irish inflation index that are important to consider, namely, food, non-energy industrial goods and services. Increases in food and goods inflation reflect the global factors I have already mentioned, namely, global supply and transport bottlenecks. Pass-through from higher energy and input costs is also a factor and will likely continue to be so for several months yet.

However, the price of services in Ireland has been increasing through the second half of 2021. Within the services category, price increases in rents, restaurants and hotels stand out. This is not only for the scale of the increases but also because both categories together account for almost half of all services spending. Base effects are also relevant in these categories. Relative to pre-pandemic levels, rents and restaurant and hotel prices are both 4.2% higher according to the Central Statistics Office, CSO.

While measures of inflation are designed to represent an average consumption basket in an economy, people feel the impact of inflation differently and not everyone in the community will experience price increases in the same way. Some people will be more or less impacted by the recent bout of inflation simply because they are more or less exposed to certain price changes. Lower-income households, older people and rural households are more affected by energy-driven inflation. This is because it represents a larger proportion of their spending compared to other groups. Conversely, higher-income households, younger people and more urban households tend to spend more on services.

In deciding how to respond to inflation developments, monetary policymakers such as me need to consider two things. First, what is the source of the inflation and how long is it expected to last? Second, what is the potential for more broad-based and persistent inflation above the 2% target in the medium term? Forecasting future economic developments is always challenging but there is a remarkable level of additional uncertainty and complexity to consider right now. We are not in an ordinary economic environment.

Our judgment today is that we expect the global drivers of current inflation to recede gradually during 2022. On the potential for relative price changes to lead to more broad-based inflation, monetary policymakers across the world have spoken about so-called "second-round effects" from inflation into wage setting. Recent data for the euro area does not suggest, at least thus far, that higher inflation in 2021 is feeding into broad-based higher wage demands, although the upheaval in the labour market makes it more challenging than ever to extract timely and accurate insights from the data.

Monetary policy's primary effect is through the demand side of the economy. We, therefore, need to be conscious of the effects of tightening policy when the recovery from the pandemic in the euro area remains highly uncertain and incomplete. The wrong monetary policy action today could prove more costly than the risks stemming from the current spike in inflation. Over the medium term, it could slow economic growth unnecessarily, which could prevent inflation reaching our target in a sustainable manner.

While lower-income households suffer more from energy-driven inflation, they are also more vulnerable to a contraction in demand that would reduce employment. Constraining demand now to bring it back into line with what might be a transitory supply interruption would then depress incentives for supply to return. Having said that, we cannot afford to be complacent. We need to recognise that there are risks to the inflation outlook. If current trends in inflation persist, the case for monetary policy action will become stronger.

Turning to other policy levers, Government decisions on expenditure and tax revenue can have an important impact on economic growth, inflation and the broader economy and labour market. While action is needed to address infrastructure deficits in housing and to meet the challenges of climate change, any investment, given the current economic backdrop, needs to be managed carefully and accompanied, where necessary, by structural reforms to ensure that the demand it generates does not lead to excessive inflationary pressures. Put simply, the economy as a whole does not need, nor would it benefit from, expansionary fiscal policy in the coming years. This does not mean that targeted measures which do not add to overall demand in the economy and which offset the negative impact of current inflation on the most vulnerable are misplaced. More generally, since Ireland is a small, open economy in the euro area, fiscal policy has an enhanced role here as the main instrument of macroeconomic stabilisation. Dr. Cassidy and I are ready to take the committee's questions.

Thank you for your opening statement, Mr. Makhlouf. I now open the floor to members. They have nine minutes each for questions and answers. If time allows, we will go to a second round. Our first member to speak is Deputy Doherty.

Tá fáilte roimh an nGobharnóir ag an gcoiste arís. I welcome the Governor to the committee.

I am sure Mr. Makhlouf agrees with the statements in the economic letters from the Central Bank that the drivers of inflation are likely to dissipate over the medium term. Will he outline to the committee the negative impacts of low or no inflation for households, businesses and the broader economy, an issue that is maybe sometimes little understood?

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

Certainly. I said this in my opening statement but it is worth repeating. The ECB's target is that we achieve 2% inflation over the medium term. Intuitively, people ask why not less than that. A rate of 2% reflects an assessment, based partly on historical evidence, that it is the right rate to encourage investment which promotes growth in a stable and sustainable way. If inflation were zero or even negative, people's incentives to spend would be distorted. They would tend not to spend, meaning that businesses would tend not to invest. That would then result in a deflationary spiral, which, ultimately, would result in lower growth and job losses in the economy. A rate of 2% is therefore the judgment we at the ECB have come to but it is also the level that other central banks around the world have come to as being the right amount of inflation to encourage economic growth in a stable way.

That rate has not been achieved in the past decade, since the financial crash, at European level.

Given the recent price changes arising from the pandemic - and in light of Mr. Makhlouf's views on the causes of same - and their transitionary nature and the negative impact that would be caused by a premature and reactionary increase in interest rates, and mindful that he holds not just the position of Governor of the Central Bank but also a position on the ECB board, will Mr. Makhlouf outline his position on ECB monetary policy and what would be necessary for him to support or argue for an increase in the interest rate?

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

I made some remarks yesterday that were consistent with the statement I have just made. My position is that, on the evidence we see today, increases in interest rates are absolutely not warranted because the factors driving inflation, as I said earlier, are temporary. In fact, increases in interest rates today would have a very negative effect on economies. If, however, we saw the evidence change, my view is that we should respond without delay. The fundamental response to the Deputy's question is that if the evidence changes, my view is likely to change. Right now, however, the position we have taken is the reasonable one. I said yesterday that I think that in these circumstances patience is a virtue. Our position is the correct one, but we need to be vigilant because these are exceptional circumstances not just for the Irish economy and the euro area economy but also for the global economy. We need to be vigilant, make sure we understand exactly what is happening and maintain as much optionality in our toolkit in order that we may respond in reasonable time if the facts start to change.

I assume - I ask him to correct me if I am wrong - that when Mr. Makhlouf talks about facts or evidence changing, the facts and evidence he is talking about relate to whether this is short-term or transitionary in nature and whether the evidence were to start to appear that the inflationary figures we see currently are more than the result of the three pillars he outlined in the context of a mismatch relating to supply and demand. The other point was that this is more medium-term to long-term. Is that the evidence and the facts that would need to change for Mr. Makhlouf to reconsider his position? In what timeframe does he believe we should start to see those inflation numbers start to decrease?

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

There are probably two types of evidence that would lead me to start changing my view. One is if I saw what I described earlier as second round effects. In other words, if current inflation started to feed into wages. History has taught us that that is the beginning of a price-wage spiral. The other set of evidence is if we started to see structural change in the way economies operated and if we started to see changes in the supply chains and the way they were working - in other words, if they were not reverting to normal but were changing in some way. We expect that in 2022 we will start to see the current levels of inflation I mentioned earlier recede gradually. For one thing, a number of base effects will come out of the calculation and, it is to be hoped, as 2022 proceeds we will see a number of these bottlenecks start to get repaired. I think that next year we should see things receding. In December, the ECB's governing council will receive the latest forecasts from ECB staff on their projections, so in about a month's time we will have much more up-to-date information on which we will make our judgments.

I thank the Mr. Makhlouf. One of the factors leading into the overall inflation numbers is the issue of energy prices. For households and families, as Mr. Makhlouf has rightly pointed out, this is probably the one they are most concerned about because they are feeling it right now and, as we go into a colder snap, people are having to heat their homes more, the bills are coming in and they are quite significant compared with what they were this time last year. Depending on the type of fuel used or the method used to heat one's home, this is felt differently in different areas.

For example, in the Border region and the west there is an over-reliance or a reliance on home heating oil, which means two thirds of people use heating oil to heat their homes. That is a sharper increase than what we would see with gas or electricity, although those increases are significant in themselves. Is there any reassurance in what the Governor has seen in terms of when those numbers will start to level out or decrease?

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

I will invite Dr. Cassidy to comment in case he knows more than me about the specifics mentioned by the Deputy but I will say two things. First, and I do not just mean myself and Dr. Cassidy, but we at the Central Bank of Ireland and we at the European Central Bank are taking the impact of current high inflation on the purchasing power of people very seriously. I absolutely recognise, in particular, that current high energy inflation has a negative and concerning impact on some households.

Let me put this in economist language. The energy shock that we face right now is an international and a global one. How it is going to affect particular types of energy consumption in particular parts of the country? I am not sure whether we have enough information on that. Certainly the whole of the industrialised world right now is facing the sort of energy shocks that we are talking about. Does Dr. Cassidy wish to add something?

That is okay as I am out of time but if there is time after my next question perhaps Dr. Cassidy might comment.

My final question is on the housing market. We are seeing price inflation in the housing market in both rental and residential properties, which is due partly to the pandemic savings being unleashed into the sector that was closed during that period. Such inflation is also due to the undersupply of housing that spans the best part of the past decade. There are also demand-side measures from the Government into the housing market. For example, last year just over 12,000 homes were purchased and over 6,000 of them were through the help-to-buy scheme. Does the Government expect this level of intervention on the demand side comprising the proportion, as it does, of new homes purchased to impact on prices? Does he expect the same effect through the proposed share equity loan scheme that is being considered by the Central Bank? I would appreciate any comments on that.

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

The Deputy is right to emphasise the supply challenge. The Central Bank has talked about this over the years. Demand-side policies can have a negative effect on inflation. I do not have a specific number to tell the Deputy what the precise proportional balance is. I have said in the past that the supply of housing is a challenge that we need to address in Ireland.

I want to make one clarification point and it is important that everybody bears this in mind. When we talk about inflation and quote numbers about inflation, we do not include the cost of purchasing a house but we do include the impact of rents. That is partly historical. The ECB decided at the end of our strategy review back in July that the cost of owner-occupied housing should be included in the calculation of housing. That is going to require the European statistical authorities to develop a process which can separate out the proportion of a house purchase that is investing in an asset and which should not be included in the measure of inflation from the consumption cost. I mean it is a technical issue but I think it is important that everybody understands the measure of inflation at the moment.

Sorry, the Deputy's time is up. Perhaps Dr. Cassidy would like to add his comment.

Dr. Mark Cassidy

The Governor has answered it well. In terms of energy prices, what is somewhat unusual about the current crisis is that energy prices are increasing by equally significant amounts right across the board. It is not just fuel prices and petrol. It is also electricity and gas. This reflects developments in all parts of the international energy markets. Oil prices, natural gas prices and costs of shipping transportation have increased very significantly.

In terms of future developments, what we can say is that futures markets indicate that there is an expectation that prices of gas and oil will begin to decline somewhere around the first quarter of next year and gradually reducing back towards pre-pandemic levels but there is enormous uncertainty. Futures prices are the best way we have of estimating what the future paths might be but they are certainly not always right. There is a lot of uncertainty and I think that is the most we can say. The economic factors suggest that these temporary factors, that we can point to as causing these prices, one would expect that they would begin to gradually ease.

I thank and welcome the witnesses. Is this the first time that the Governor has appeared before this committee?

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

It is.

The Governor is very welcome. I do not wish to pile pressure on the present Governor but his predecessor made himself very available, which was always very appreciated by the committee.

I am not an economist and I focused on the Governor's paper entitled Inflation dynamics in a pandemic: maintaining vigilance and optionality, in which he fleshed out some of these issues. I will work backwards. Just watching some of the information anecdotally coming out of the USA, the Governor said:

We know the reasons underlying today’s inflation. We believe that those reasons mean today’s inflation is not going to be permanent but I accept that we do not know that to the same degree...

Looking at some of the countries that have their own independent central banks that might have entered into the inflationary phase a little more quickly than we have, what can the Governor discern from that?

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

I am delighted to appear for the first time at this committee and I will make every effort to be more available than my predecessor.

What can we learn from other central banks? They are all having the same conversations as we are. The inflationary pressures are global because the world was essentially impacted by the pandemic. The world responded to the pandemic in similar ways. The world is now coming out of the pandemic and is seeing the same sorts of issues around supply bottlenecks, base effects and energy prices. On the other hand, there are important differences that we do need to bear in mind because sometimes it is too easy to say this central bank is doing this and to ask why are others not doing the same.

The Deputy mentioned the United States. One of the, in my view, important differences between the euro area and the United States is the US's fiscal response to the pandemic. There has been a very significant fiscal impulse that is playing a role in their current inflation numbers. Although it is fair to say that in Europe there has also been a very significant fiscal policy response, it has not on the same scale as we have seen in the United States.

Another important difference, which is perhaps a bit more technical but is worth bearing in mind, is that the Federal Reserve has got a slightly different mandate to that of the ECB. So the ECB's primary objective is price stability and it has the secondary objective to support the policies of the EU without prejudice to price stability.

The Federal Reserve's mandate is both price stability and maximum sustainable employment. The Federal Reserve has adopted a policy of average inflation targeting, which is different from the ECB's. It means that they are more tolerant of overshooting their 2% target in order to help them achieve their maximum sustainable employment objective. I mention that simply to just bring out the way the Federal Reserve responds, or will respond, to the current inflation pressures may be slightly different from the way the ECB would respond. This reflects the differences in the mandate and also the more substantive differences in the underlying dynamics.

I read previously that the mandate from the ECB is connected with the foundation economic environment of the ECB at the time, when there was a great amount of growth going on and possibly nobody ever envisaged jobs being an issue. It came to a real head during the financial crisis, but that is perhaps for another day.

In this paper Mr. Makhlouf suggests that if inflation was to persist then the case for monetary policy action becomes stronger. What kinds of tools are at the ECB's disposal? We do not have any at own individual disposal, or do we? Would there be budgetary options there?

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

Monetary policy is done at the ECB. We are part of a single currency union. Our preferred tool is interest rates. We can raise our interest rates if inflation is persisting, and we can lower our interest rates if the opposite is happening. As Deputy Doherty said earlier, inflation in the euro area has been below target since the financial crisis, and unusually for a central bank we have been trying to increase inflation for the past decade. Somewhat paradoxically, the current state of inflation is moving things in the direction we want to go, even though the rates are actually higher than we would like them to be. Using interest rates has been a problem for us over the past decade because, for a variety of reasons, inflation was so low that interest rates have been operating at what we would call the effective lower bound. At the ECB they are in negative territory. When interest rates are at those low levels they are not very powerful so we had to develop a different set of tools to use.

I will outline some of the tools we use. We purchase assets such as bonds, which is known in some parts of the world as quantitative easing, QE. We have asset purchase programmes, and we also have interest rates as part of our toolkit. At the start of the pandemic we increased our asset purchase programme by putting in place an emergency programme, PEP, to cope with the crisis. They are our first two tools. The third tool is forward guidance. We guide the market and help to manage inflation expectations through giving forward guidance to markets, which then feeds through to the economy. Finally, we have dedicated loan arrangements where we make available to banks, at preferential rates, money that they can then lend on in the economy to promote growth. That suite of tools is available to us. Our preferred tool is interest rates, but currently and in recent years it has been more difficult to use. If inflation persists and is no longer temporary, we would be looking at the whole of that toolkit. The likelihood is that we would probably reduce our asset purchases before we increase interest rates.

I thank the Governor for that. I like the introductory comment he made in this paper when he said "all financial crises are alike but an economic crisis is unique in its own fashion". How far behind do wage inflation pressures come? Is there a rough point in the economic cycle, that Mr. Makhlouf has seen before, whereby inflation manifests itself into wage inflation demands and materialises into wage demands? Is there a formula for how far behind it lags?

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

I will ask Dr. Cassidy to come in on this. The reality is that the institutional framework we have in place today, at central banks and in the way wages are set, is quite different from what it was 40 years ago when central banks had less independence and where wages were set in different ways. I am aware that increasingly a lot of people cannot remember the 1970s, but some of us can. In the 1970s there was a much quicker response between inflation being seen and wages being increased to compensate for them. As a result, we had that sort of close connection, such as I described earlier with a price-wage spiral. Central banks did not respond fast enough, or I should say that monetary policy did not respond fast enough, to deal with that. With the world we are now in, however, central banks have independence to deal with that. Partly because we have had such low inflation for such a long time there is less of that sort of connection between inflation appearing and wages responding immediately to it.

Monetary policy itself, the raising and lowering of interest rates, has quite a lag before it has an effect. If for some reason we woke up tomorrow and came to the view that actually inflation was going to persist, some of the actions we take now would take some time to feed through. Perhaps Dr. Cassidy will talk about what sort of evidence there is, to respond to the Deputy's question.

Dr. Mark Cassidy

Since the financial crisis we have seen very modest developments in terms of wage increases. The wage increases we have seen in recent years are very welcome because when an economy is growing it is important that the benefits of that growth are spread across the economy. Wage increases are good thing. We would be concerned if wage increases across the economy as a whole are increasing faster than productivity is increasing. This means that firms are increasingly getting into a loss-making position. We are not seeing that at the moment. We are seeing that wage increases are quite strong in those sectors that are performing best and in those sectors that are most productive, and in those sectors therefore that are able to afford it. Those sectors include business and financial services, construction, and IT services.

We still have one single labour market in the economy. If wage pressures in those sectors that are best performing become generalised and we start seeing wages picking up across the economy as a whole, then those parts of the economy that are not doing as well become unaffordable and the only way they can react is to push prices further up. That is what leads to this wage-price spiral and that is where we would become concerned. We are not seeing evidence of that at present. There is no fixed timeframe when wages increase. Indeed, it is not automatically the case that higher prices lead to higher wages. What we would be looking out for, more than anything else, is when we start seeing wage pressures across an intensive labour services sector, such as hospitality. That is when the risk for the economy as a whole is that those wage increases are too much. We are not seeing that at the moment. It is something we and other countries and policymakers will certainly be keeping an eye on in the coming years.

Is there is an economic formula that indicates the lag period before wage demands start to kick in following inflation? I ask Dr. Cassidy not to answer that question now because I do not want to eat into someone else's time.

I thank the Governor of the Central Bank and Dr. Cassidy for being here this evening. It is important to have this type of engagement and I appreciate their time, as do all the other members. As a small businessperson, as well as a politician, I like to think that I and my other colleagues are acutely attuned to the world of finance and the different pressures and complexities that it brings. As a person who has been borrowing money since I was 18 or 19 years of age, I am becoming acutely aware of how difficult it is, even for an established person, to borrow money and have access to funds.

I judge everything by how I see it and what I see going on close to me. If a person such as me and my close friends locally are having difficulty in accessing borrowed funds, not massive but ordinary amounts of money, where does that leave the young couple of today? That is the young boy or girl who is making friends or starting out on his or her own or as part of a couple and looking to borrow to try to get on the property ladder or to get a loan for a small or medium sized business to get a bit of a leg up. If what I would call established people find it difficult, how in the name of God will young people find it? How are they supposed to manage? How are they supposed to get on in life?

As a politician, I feel so bad every day that young people are being held back and not being given the opportunity. Everybody talks about how bad the 1980s and 1990s were, but at that time people could walk into a bank, look at a bank manager and sell themselves the bank manager, if the witnesses know what I mean. Bank managers had autonomy to lend if they liked the look of someone and thought that person was a worker who would knuckle down in life and do what needed to be done to get on. When I say "get on", I do not mean anything big or fancy but getting on in paying a mortgage. Is that not a great achievement for a young couple? That is getting on.

However, so many obstacles are being put in the way of young people today. When I meet people in banking circles and in that way of life, the first thing I always ask is what in the name of God they are doing with all the money. Why are bankers not being more understanding? Why are Governments not doing more? It could be said that that is our job, but I like to think people from all parties, be it Sinn Féin, or all the other people doing a lot of work in housing and the banking sector - I heard Deputy Doherty speaking earlier on and asking questions - are really putting their shoulder to the wheel. Many politicians are pulling their weight, but I would love to think the banks are pulling their weight and I would like to think the banks' hearts are in the right place in supporting our young people.

If we give young people a chance and give them a loan or mortgage when they are looking for one, of course things might not work out for some people and they will fail, but businesses fail. Individuals do not have the luxury of not failing either. Things can go wrong in anybody's life, but I would like to think of people being given the chance. All I want for the young boys and girls of today is for them to be given an opportunity and that we have a banking sector that is kind and understanding. I also want a Government that would be kind and understanding to young people. We only get one chance at life. We only get to live once and I want people to have the same opportunities.

I do not want it to be the case that people have to be awful lucky to get on. It should not be that way. If people are determined and knuckle down to the job of living, they should be given the same opportunities as everybody else. It is up to them then to make their way. Banks play a significant role in people's lives. Can we imagine the young 18 or 19-year old of today getting scrubbed up and walking into the bank, asking for the manager and saying he or she wanted a loan? For God's sake, the manager would not talk to him or her. The manager will hardly talk to us, never mind a young person starting out.

The Chairperson knows I do not ever want to rabbit on. I just want to make my little point. That is all. I hope I am making it as clear as I can. I ask that young people be given a chance.

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

I am not sure there is a precise question. I completely sympathise with the Deputy's sentiments. Certainly, the banking system in Ireland is in a much better plan than where it was a decade ago, although, to a certain extent, it is still repairing itself. We still have, for example, long-term mortgage arrears that are a problem for the system.

If the Deputy is talking about housing and the mortgage measures in particular, it is very familiar territory. Tomorrow, I will be announcing the conclusions of our latest annual review of the mortgage measures. We are in the middle of a pretty significant review of the entire framework, which will conclude next year, on the mortgage measures. As I have said in the past, as far as housing is concerned, the fundamental issue there is the supply of housing, as opposed to the availability of finance.

In terms of lending to small businesses, we have not seen any evidence to say that banks are short of money to lend. I would expect that if someone has a good business proposition, and I have no doubt the Deputy has lots of them, he or she will get a positive reaction from his or her bank manager. However, I completely understand the housing challenge, if that was the Deputy's particular focus. That is a significant issue, but its solution is not in the availability of credit but the supply of housing.

Both witnesses are very welcome to the committee. It is interesting to listen to the way the conversations have been going. The first area I want to touch on is inflation and inflationary effects. We have an unprecedented set of circumstances, worldwide, as well as an unprecedented domestic situation. We have been saying that the common view on this is that it is a blip in that the current inflation is abnormal and will settle down again, it is hoped, in time.

After what amount of time would Mr. Makhlouf get worried that this is more of a sustained increase in the inflation rate? Would it be six months or a year? I refer in particular to the cost of living and how people's spending power is being eroded by inflation.

I am also concerned that inflation is eroding the results we will get from the capital projects we hope to deliver over the next ten years under the national development plan. Shorter lengths of road or rail line will be built for the amount of money we will have. If things keep going the way they are going for another six months, a year or two years, at what point would the Central Bank decide it needed to have another look at the matter? At the moment, the Central Bank is observing. Patience is one thing but this will have to be reviewed.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae was talking about mortgages and young people. As a result of inflation and the cost of building homes, they are out of the reach of most people. I refer to young people and first-time buyers. Homes are partly out of their reach because of the limit on what they can borrow, which is based on their salaries or wages. I believe the limit is three and a half times their salary. In many cases, they will fall short of being able to buy a normal house. I will ask for the witness's opinion on a matter. The credit union movement holds a massive amount of people's savings but cannot spend it. The banks are charging credit unions because they need to keep a certain amount in reserve in the banks. The banks are holding their money and charging them for that. Would we be better off trying to make the credit union movement a third force in banking for mortgages for first-time buyers? Should we try to get something going there? I know the overall principle is that you can borrow as much as you can afford to pay back but we have created some anomalies and some people are trapped. They are saving money and doing everything right but when they think they have a mortgage sorted out, the price jumps again because of the lack of supply and moves out of reach again.

I would like the Central Bank's comments on all of that. I hope I have been coherent. This is all in my head and I am trying to get it out.

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

I thank the Deputy. I will take his questions in turn. To put it in my own terms, the first question was about how long it would be before I would get worried and feel that we needed to act, that is, how long would inflation have to continue at these levels for me to get worried? I am worried today. I am not complacent about this. I am very conscious that inflation is impacting on households across the country today. On the other hand, it is not so much a question of a certain amount of time before we feel we need to take action. However, it is fair to say that the longer inflation persists at these levels, the more likely it is that this will start feeding into wages and having other second-round effects. For me, it would matter more to see evidence that supply blockages were being repaired and falls in energy prices.

With regard to the supply blockages, there is a sort of consensus that these are blockages as opposed to structural changes. If I may expand a little bit on the supply blockage issue, they are essentially a reflection of a very big increase in demand around the world as a result of restrictions being lifted. Growth in Ireland, in the euro area and around the world has increased significantly over recent months because restrictions were lifted. That has led to a big demand. People had been saving during the pandemic and have now decided to spend their savings. They have started to spend them either on consumer goods or on services, that is, going out to restaurants and the like. That very significant increase in demand has put pressure on supply. This would have happened in an ordinary situation if demand had increased by as much as it has but, in the meantime, a lot of the supply chains closed down because of the pandemic. They have had to reopen, which has taken time. Famously, many of the ships that transport goods from Asia to the United States or Europe are in the wrong place. It takes time for them to get rearranged and ready to transport goods.

If, as we hope, we begin to see evidence that those sorts of supply blockages are being repaired, in some respects, it will not matter whether it takes four months or a year. If they are being repaired, we know that they will subside. For example, we know that there is a big shortage of semiconductors. This is affecting car manufacture but also the production of white goods like fridges and so on. This shortage is likely to persist for much of 2022. However, we also know that the supply of semiconductors will come on stream. That is a question of timing. It is not simple to say how long this would have to go on for before I would start to worry. It is more the case that, if I see evidence that these blockages are not being fixed or that different things are happening, I would start to worry. However, I am worried today. I hope that I will be a lot better informed in a few months' time because we will have seen more evidence.

On the Deputy's point on housing, I hope he will forgive me because I have forgotten the overall question. I recall him asking whether credit unions could be a third force. There is no reason why credit unions could not play a role in the system. On the other hand, the biggest players in terms of lending money and providing mortgages are the big banks because they have the asset base to do that. The focus of the Central Bank is always going to be on making sure that the system works in a stable way and that reckless lending and reckless borrowing are avoided, as I have said in the past. That is a particular focus of ours. We do not want to repeat the mistakes of the past. I do not know if there is anything Dr. Cassidy wants to add on that particular point.

Dr. Mark Cassidy

I might address one point. The Deputy made a very important point about the effect of inflationary pressures on the delivery of the national development plan and ensuring that we get our money's worth in that regard. As the Deputy knows, what is planned in terms of capital investment in the coming decade is extremely significant.

Capital spending will be increased to very high levels, which we think is very welcome, in order to address the infrastructure and housing deficits that currently exist, to meet our climate change targets and to enhance productivity. The challenge that Deputy Canney is alluding to is that we are already seeing inflationary pressures in this sector and rising construction costs, tender prices, labour shortages and levels of demand. The challenge over the next decade will be to get the most out of the money that we are spending in this area. That is something we also need to monitor.

I will mention a number of things in this regard. First, the construction sector and the housing sector in particular will undoubtedly need significant additional labour over the period. An important element is how the economy can attract that labour. Estimates are for perhaps an additional 30,000 to 40,000 workers. It will not be as easy to attract labour from abroad, for example, in construction as it was in the 2000s when wages here were much higher than in some other countries. Second, the level of productivity in the sector is particularly low and lags behind that some other countries. In order to deliver successfully on those plans, that productivity deficit will need to be addressed. Third, we will need to manage delivery and ensure that cost overruns are limited. If we are to get the most bang for our buck in capital delivery, those are the three things I would point to. If they can be achieved, then what has been proposed is very welcome and necessary for this economy.

Can I ask for one clarification there? Dr. Cassidy referred to the productivity deficit in the construction sector. What does he mean by that?

Dr. Mark Cassidy

It is a very labour-intensive sector in terms of the amount of construction output that a given amount of labour can produce. Across most industries, we expect that to increase over time as technology improves, for example, where one gets more per unit of worker. In the construction sector, that rate of increase has been typically very low and has lagged behind increases in other countries. What we mean here is how much we can produce for a given labour supply because the labour supply is necessarily somewhat limited.

Are we talking about off-site construction and the type of work to speed up the process rather than traditional-style building? Is that what Dr. Cassidy is alluding to when he talks about investing more in the technologies to create a faster production of units, whatever they are?

Dr. Mark Cassidy

Yes. I think there are others who speak better to this. This is not something that we have looked at in detail. There are suggestions out there where some of the other institutions have looked at our construction sector in more detail. There are proposals that could enhance productivity and improve the functioning of the market. This relates to housing in particular and planning and development systems. All of these things can be looked at.

I ask the Chair to allow me one final remark.

Okay, but Deputy Canney had better be quick.

In the context of mortgages, is there any hope that Dr. Cassidy can offer young people at this point? Mr. Makhlouf stated that we cannot have reckless borrowing. How do we support them?

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

Allow me to answer that question. From our perspective, the framework review of the mortgage measures that we have under way is going to be comprehensive and will look to answer the Deputy’s question as best we can. At the end of the day, as I said earlier in response to another question, we can help young people the most by increasing the supply of houses. We will not help young people if we increase the amount of debt we give them.

I thank Deputy Canney and call Deputy Mairéad Farrell.

I thank the Chair and our witnesses.

I thank the Chair and I also thank the witnesses for coming before the committee. I hope they are enjoying their first time before us. I am sure that they will be rushing to come back again.

I have a number of questions. I am quite interested in the comments made by the Governor in an article in The Irish Times today. They struck a somewhat different note from what we have heard from Philip Lane when it comes to the need for interest rate increases. I would like to tease that out with our witnesses if I may. It is something more of a hawkish position whereby Mr. Makhlouf said today that we should not hesitate to increase interest rates if inflation persists. I am interested because, from my understanding of this, we can see that current inflation is arising as a result of two main factors, one of which is energy prices. Much of that is due to the geopolitical factors in respect of Saudi Arabia and Russia reducing oil and gas supplies in their own interests. There is also the reopening of the supply chains that is currently under way. It will take time but it is happening nonetheless.

I am very interested in hearing the bank’s views as to how it feels that an interest rate rise could have an effect on those things. Would it not be worried in any sense that it could create risks and could stymie the recovery and potentially even create stagflation? I thank the Chair. That is my first question.

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

I thank the Deputy for her question. I do not think that there are any differences between Mr. Philip Lane and me on the question of raising interest rates now. I spoke to him, I believe, last week. I still think that that is the right position. If the Deputy reads the remarks I made yesterday, I hope that they are a little bit clearer than the headline in The Irish Times perhaps was.

Fundamentally, increasing interest rates today would be a mistake. On the evidence that we have today, and I emphasise and underline the word “today”, the factors that are driving inflation and the answer to them is not to raise interest rates because that would impact the recovery, slow down economic growth, have consequences for employment and, ultimately, have the completely opposite effect to the one that we would want. Mr. Lane and I would completely agree on that.

What I have been saying is that we need to be vigilant. If we take a step back, we are in a pretty unique situation today, not just in Ireland or the euro area but in much of the developed world. We went into an exceptional economic shock in March 2020 when governments decided to close down both demand and supply across the world, and did so voluntarily. I remember saying at the time that I could not find an example in history of that having happened before. I do not believe that that particular situation has happened before. That unique situation is reflected in the world that we are in today, which is that we are coming out of this pandemic, which was a unique experience, and the way we are doing that is putting unusual pressures around economic activity, whether it is the supply bottlenecks that we have discussed or the sudden increase in demand that is being experienced. As I said earlier, we see those factors as temporary. The right response, therefore, is patience. If we are right, we will see those pressures recede. The wrong response today would be to increase rates.

On the other hand, if the evidence we see starts to suggest that there are structural changes happening to economies that are going to see inflation persisting, or if we see the current temporary inflation start feeding into wage pressures which are not supported by productivity increases, we will then be exposed to a wage price spiral and to inflation persisting and becoming more permanent.

What I have been saying, and what I said yesterday, which The Irish Times reported today, is that we need to be vigilant about the circumstances we are in, pay very close attention to the evidence and respond without delay if we see that evidence changing. That is the sort of point I have been making. People will make similar arguments in different ways and there will be different points of emphasis. Reference was made to Mr. Philip Lane. He and I may have different points of emphasis but we are pretty aligned on the fundamentals, as is the governing council of the European Central Bank, ultimately.

I will consider those comments. I just saw what The Irish Times has reported. I know I am sometimes quoted in a way that differs from my remarks. I will have a good read of the article.

My next question is on the high prevalence of so-called zombie companies across the EU and on how a significant interest rate increase could impact them and, by extension, the wider EU economy. Obviously, increasing interest rates makes it increasingly difficult for them and jeopardises their solvency. I am aware that the French bank Natixis estimates that the proportion of zombie companies has risen from 3.5% at the beginning of the 1990s to close to 21% in 2019. The research carried out, including research by the Financial Times, indicates one fifth of Europe's corporate landscape may now be zombified, but that research was all carried out before the pandemic. If more than one fifth of those in Europe's corporate sector were zombified before the pandemic, it seems likely, and it would not be a massive leap of faith to believe, that this proportion has increased. In this regard, I am wondering about two points. How many of the so-called zombie companies do the witnesses believe are in Ireland's corporate sector? From the point of view of financial stability and employment, what would be the implications of a sharp interest rate increase for those companies and the wider economy? My questions are slightly hypothetical, but it would be quite interesting to hear the delegates' views on them.

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

I thank the Deputy. I will ask Dr. Cassidy to respond in case he knows some of the specific answers. I am not on top of the number of so-called zombie firms in Ireland.

There is a related, but slightly separate, relevant point that is worth making. Many firms and households have benefited from Government supports over the past 20 months or so. We have been asking what the impact would be if those supports were withdrawn because, in theory, a withdrawal would give the first sign as to whether so-called zombie firms have been surviving only on Government supports. Their failure will be the first indication we will have.

The Deputy is correct that if we increased interest rates, it would have a direct effect on the cost of funding businesses. Those that are not profitable would be impacted. To repeat what I said earlier, we are not in the business of raising interest rates right now. The need to withdraw Government supports is a more realistic proposition. I can comment on the financial stability implications. We will be talking about this more tomorrow when we publish our latest financial stability review. Essentially, the Irish financial system went into one of the biggest economic shocks that it has had for a very long time when it was in a fairly robust position and fairly robust health. The evidence over the past 20 months has been that the Irish financial system has benefited from the repair work it has had to undergo over the past decade and survived the most extreme effects of the shock. The economy is now coming out of the depths it was in. The big financial institutions are in a robust enough position to manage the withdrawal of supports that is ahead. The position on interest rates is a bit more complicated because we are speculating as to what may happen a bit further down the line.

Dr. Mark Cassidy

This is a very important issue. The Governor makes an important distinction between firms that are non-viable but kept alive because of the low interest rate environment prior to the pandemic, which the Deputy described as “zombies”, and firms that became reliant on Government supports during the pandemic. With regard to the former, there are other countries in Europe that are more exposed. I do not have a number to give the Deputy but our analysis shows there would not be many non-viable firms coming into this crisis. The Deputy referred to a sharp increase in interest rates. Even when interest rates begin to normalise, nobody will be expecting a sharp, significant effect so much as a gradual return to normal. Therefore, I do not think the effect would be too significant. It can be economically damaging. In Japan we saw the concept of evergreening. Interest rates have been so low for so long that many non-viable firms have been kept alive when they would not otherwise have been able to do so. That prevents new firms from developing. It is quite a negative economic development.

With regard to the pandemic, the view right across Europe is that when government supports are reduced, some firms may not survive. The numbers are expected to be much lower than we might have expected a year ago. The evidence right across Europe, including in affected countries such as Italy and France, shows that while some may be affected, the number will be much lower than expected. The economies are coming out of this in a stronger position than was previously expected. There is uncertainty but the outlook is not as bad as we might have expected a while ago.

I welcome the Governor and Dr. Cassidy. I thank them for their briefing and the overview. Many of the points I was hoping to make have come up already in various shapes. If the witnesses bear with me, however, I might refer to a couple of different angles. They are saying they feel that there will not be longer-term inflation so much as more short-term inflation, that patience will be the big ingredient and that if the data change and inflation looks like it will be more long term, we should be able to move on it at that stage. What tools do they envisage being used? What kinds of triggers do they foresee and what data do they expect to see changing? I realise the witnesses have mentioned wages, but we have already seen wage increases in the tech sector as a direct result of being able to work from home. In construction, there have already been wage increases.

I am trying to figure what the Governor sees as the triggers, if any, down the road and what kind of tools he would act with at that stage.

I have three or four questions. The capital plan will be a big driver of spending in housing, transport and various different infrastructure. The Governor is concerned about the size of the spend and how it might impact on inflation. How would the Governor handle it and at the same time ensure that there is an adequate spend on housing, transport and all those different key projects?

The Governor is talking about the wrong measures having a significant impact now. What would the Governor consider to be the wrong measures?

Finally, the cost of housing has considerably increased, whether you are buying or renting, and it is a sizeable component of inflation. It is a reasonable aspiration of people to be able to buy their own home. Raising the deposit and at the same time paying rent is a significant blockage for people - a real struggle. Would the Governor see a situation where the ability to pay rent would be seen as proof of ability to repay a mortgage and be considered as part of the assessment? The Governor has referred to the supply as playing a big part in addressing housing but irrespective of how much supply is there, that issue will be there for younger couples, single people or whoever wants to borrow money. I would be interested to hear the Governor's views on seeing if there is a way to consider the ability to save while they are paying rent.

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

I thank the Deputy. I will ask Dr. Cassidy to pick up the capital plan questions. All I will say on that is I am not only worried about the size of spend. I am also worried about how it is spent. However, I will leave that to Dr. Cassidy to talk about.

On the wrong measures, to answer that question first, the wrong measure to tackle inflation today would be to raise interest rates today. That would be top of the list of wrong measures. Raising interest rates today would have a negative effect on the recovery and it would lead to job losses and business failures. It would put the whole of the recovery at risk. That would be the wrong thing to do today in response to what we are seeing.

On raising interest rates, to turn to the Deputy's question about the tools if we saw inflation persisting, raising interest rates is the biggest part of our toolkit. However, if we were faced with that sort of decision what we would probably do - certainly, what I would want us to do, and this is for discussion with all my colleagues at the ECB - is reduce our asset purchase programme first before we raised interest rates. Fundamentally, it would have a similar effect of tightening policy and having a direct impact on demand.

Someone used the word "stagflation" earlier in one of the questions and I did not respond to that directly. We are not in the stagflation situation that we were in the 1970s. There is genuine growth happening, both in Ireland and in Europe and around the world. It may be slightly dampened in the near term because of the re-emergence of restrictions, etc., but there is real growth. In the 1970s, the "stag" bit reflected stagnation and we are not in a stagnation sort of world right now. We have the tools to deal with inflation.

I completely understand Deputy Aindrias Moynihan's point on housing and rents and deposits. It is one of the questions we are considering in our review of the mortgage measures framework which will not be concluded until next year but I am aware of it. Fundamentally, we are not trying to stop people from being in a position to put a deposit down. What we are trying to prevent, as I stated earlier, is reckless lending and borrowing, but how the rules interact with supply being constrained and rental prices as they are is something I absolutely recognise. It is an issue. One of the answers I can give to the Deputy's direct question is that banks or lenders have the flexibility today to consider the reliability of the borrower. If they have a track record that they have been paying X amount in rent, banks have the flexibility to take that into account in their decision-making and to use the flexibility they have to lend above the restrictions as part of that. Leaving that aside, I completely understand the Deputy's point. That is an issue that we are thinking about very carefully.

Dr. Mark Cassidy

In relation to capital spending, as Deputy Aindrias Moynihan will be aware, the recently announced national development plan, which is extremely ambitious, commits to investment of €160 billion in the period between now and 2030. It is a welcome opportunity to address the infrastructure deficit in this country to increase housing supply and to meet our climate change targets.

The concern the Deputy is alluding to is a very real one and involves a significant sharp increase in the rate of capital spending. The concern there is that the additional demand feeds through to higher prices as opposed to what you are trying to achieve. That is something that needs to be monitored. The timing or phasing in of the plan currently seems appropriate. If you were to see excess inflationary pressures, if you were to see private sector construction, for example, being squeezed out by the extension of public sector, then you may need to look at the phasing or timing of some of that delivery but that is not something that we are projecting or forecasting at present. However, it will be necessary to attract more labour into the sector. It is necessary to look at the productivity of the construction sector, particularly to ensure that we are getting value for money and the economy can control the costs of these massive infrastructure projects. If that can be achieved, this will have a very welcome effect on the productive capacity of the economy and some of the societal needs in terms of housing and infrastructure.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan also mentioned wages and referred to some sectors. I would say the Deputy is absolutely right. The Deputy identified some of the sectors where wages are increasing quite rapidly at present. We can identify those sectors as the ones which are experiencing the tightest labour market conditions and finding it most difficult to attract workers. What we are not seeing yet is that becoming generalised across the economy. At present, high wage increases are in a few fast-growing sectors - the Deputy mentioned information technology, IT, and construction, and there is also financial business services - rather than across all parts of the economy.

Is the Central Bank looking for it across the board more than in any particular sectors?

Dr. Mark Cassidy

If you get excessive wage increases right across the economy, that is where you get a little concerned that the higher prices are becoming embedded and you get this dangerous phenomenon of a wage-price spiral.

I thank Dr. Cassidy.

If any of the Deputies present would like to come back in for a second round, please raise your hand.

I have some questions of my own. During the previous two sessions on inflation, we heard that the expectation that this inflation will last for a short period. Hopefully, it will ease over the next year. However, we are all mindful that the pandemic is unprecedented and we are really not sure how it will play out. I am interested in the Central Bank's longer paper on the aspects that could impact inflation in the longer term. I particularly wanted to ask about reshoring or the shortening of the length of supply chain, partly because often in my area of politics, we talk about local supply chains and community wealth. Could the witnesses expand on the downsides, possible threats to reshoring or disruption and changes to supply chains and the impact of this in the longer term? Is it a consideration or worry that is being raised regularly in the Central Bank's conversations with the ECB? I know there have been a number of policy papers or research on whether there should be a move towards reshoring that have covered particular sectors such as medical products. Could the witnesses unpack that for me? Do they see reshoring and that longer supply chain issue as major concerns? Do they believe the EU will move towards any particular policy position on that? I know we have talked about the US and economic protectionism but my question relates more to security of supply chains.

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

It is a fascinating issue and a very big question. The Chairman asked me if I was worried. I am not worried about changes in supply chains as a concept. I would be interested in understanding what those changes were before I could comment on whether they are positive. What I put in my paper yesterday is that there is a change in sentiment, certainly in recent years, compared to the previous 20 years, when the question of where manufacturing or production took place was driven quite a bit by cost considerations. In recent years, partly because of economic nationalism, as the Chairman described, but also because some countries have started to think through their security needs, countries have started to reconsider their supply chains. The pandemic has changed that dynamic in another way. The Chairman mentioned medical supplies. The world is probably in a bit of a state of flux, which complicates the work of a monetary policymaker as we try to understand how our economy is adjusting not just to these questions of strategy, and within the EU, we talk about open strategic autonomy, but also about the developments in technology, digitalisation, 3-D printing and changes in consumer preferences and wants. All these things will play out over the coming years and will have an effect on economies and the way they work and interact. What the Central Bank and the ECB need to do is make sure we keep up to speed with those sorts of developments so that we are ready to respond to what are fundamental changes but I would not say today that we are concerned about reshoring. It is more a reflection that if that sort of structural change starts to happen, it will have effects on the way economies work and we want to make sure we understand that in case it has particular effects we need to take account of in our monetary policymaking.

The Chairman did not mention the question of climate change.

In my defence, I was just about to bring that up.

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

Does the Chairman wish to ask a specific question?

Well the pandemic has been a pre-play of what we expect to see from climate change. It has disrupted supply chains and made us look at our systems. I wonder if the issue of reshoring is directly related to this considering that in the past number of weeks, we have seen a province in Canada almost cut off from the rest of the country due to climate events. Are those two issues linked? Considering we look at medium- to long-term budgetary issues in this committee, what does the ECB consider to be the timeline for those issues to have a significant impact? Is it five or ten years? We were talking about economic modelling. It is such a dynamic situation and so difficult to assess how it will play out. Is it possible to do sufficient economic modelling on those impacts?

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

The key is in the word "sufficient". I suspect that we will never be able to do sufficient economic modelling but I am pretty sure we can do a lot more and better economic modelling as we gather more and better evidence and develop better understanding. The ECB's position on climate change, which I endorse 100%, is that it is probably the single most significant change to the way economies work in the future. We reviewed our entire strategy and concluded the review last July. We decided as part of that review to have a specific climate change action plan, which is pretty comprehensive. Fundamentally, it is about understanding what changes will happen to economies and the implications of those changes for the way economies work and, therefore, the job we have at the ECB, which is to maintain price stability. It obviously has implications for financial stability among other things. I told colleagues at the Central Bank yesterday that if we are going to achieve zero emissions by 2050, and 2050 is less time away than when Jack Charlton took the team to Italia 90, and fundamentally change our economy to achieve net zero, it will involve significant change. I do not know what that change will be. I can see it happening around me. It is not that long ago that the notion of buying an electric car was slightly ridiculous because it could only travel 100 metres. This is changing and changing very fast.

However, that sort of change will have to be comprehensive across economies if the net-zero emissions target is to be met. It will have implications for the way the ECB works, understands the economy and sets interest rates and monetary policy.

It is a significant area of work for us. Just a couple of weeks ago, I wrote to the chairman and chief executive of every regulated financial service provider saying that the Central Bank had certain expectations of how they would manage climate change risk and that it was something on which we would focus. I also told them that we were going to set up a climate change forum because many of these challenges are new and we need to work on them together with as many players in the economy as possible. I am glad that this committee is thinking about the medium to long term because these are significant issues for everyone.

That is welcome and interesting to hear and I commend Mr. Makhlouf on that work. Now that the Greens have entered government in Germany, I hope that the pace of change will increase even further.

A banking review was announced this week. Obviously, the Central Bank will play an important part in that. The three issues I wish to ask about are inflation and whether that will be on the agenda; access to credit; and whether Mr. Makhlouf envisages green products forming part of the review and how to achieve change in that regard.

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

I expect that we will play a role in the review but it is the Department of Finance's review, so I am not in a position to give the Chair an authoritative response to her questions. I would be surprised if the review looked at inflation. I do not believe that is within the review's terms of reference, although the Chair would have to ask the Department. I expect that the issue of access to credit will feature in the review in some way. In all fairness, though, I cannot speak for the banking review led by the Department.

I phrased it badly and should have asked what Mr. Makhlouf would prioritise. However, I see that Deputy O'Donnell is on the call. I might hand over to him.

I will take up the point raised by the Chair about the review of the banking system. What is the Governor's perspective on the issue of post offices and credit unions and what role does he see them fulfilling? Both have good networks. Post offices are under pressure. An Post has already gone into banking to some extent, but the credit unions not as much. We have had an incomplete discussion about the role of credit unions and post offices in an integrated system. I am not referring to the Sparkasse model or whatever. Can Mr. Makhlouf envisage an enhanced role for credit unions and post offices in delivering banking and financial services the length and breadth of Ireland?

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

My simple answer to the Deputy's question is "Yes". In some respects, they already play a role. The interesting question for us all is what consumers want. Their preferences have clearly been changing in recent years and I suspect that the banking review will examine that. To a large extent, the question of what the people of Ireland want from their financial service providers will determine the shape of banking with a small "b" in future. Right now, I believe that diversity in service provision, be it through An Post, credit unions or the large retail banks, is a positive. I expect that this will be a discussion point over the coming months as the review takes off.

Moving away from inflation slightly, I wish to discuss insurance. We are getting many queries on the ground about the lack of availability of insurance cover. This has to do with licences because, to operate in this jurisdiction, a provider must go through the Central Bank. Has the Central Bank received many applications from people to set up as insurance companies? How will that market develop?

Two components arise. First, many service providers for the non-mainstream areas of leisure and so forth have pulled out of the market and have not been replaced, for example, Zavarovalnica Sava. Second, many companies are approaching their annual renewal dates at the end of December, since insurance is normally organised on a calendar year basis. It will probably only be for a certain time but many insurance brokers have told me that they are sometimes finding it difficult to get cover, even for mainstream businesses. This is down to managing risk, Brexit and whether that is a real or illusionary factor, and particular underwriters pulling out of the market. Is the Central Bank engaging with underwriters in the UK? Many underwriters in the Irish market are from the UK.

Mr. Makhlouf might give me his perspective on this issue, which is being raised frequently.

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

I do not have information to hand as to how many applicants we have to set up business in Ireland, nor do I have information on what the Deputy implied about the withdrawal of firms from the market. I will ask my team to put together a short note for the committee and let members know what we know.

I would appreciate that.

Since no other member wishes to speak, it only remains for me to thank the Governor-----

May I ask a brief question?

I am sorry. I did not see the Deputy’s hand was raised. He can go ahead.

Tomorrow, the Central Bank will publish a paper that may outline its views on the shared equity scheme. Has Mr. Makhlouf words of enlightenment he can give to the committee in that regard?

I wish to pick up on a point relating to deposits for mortgage approvals. Mr. Makhlouf mentioned that rent records would be taken into account. Am I picking his comments up correctly?

Obviously it is a new departure that the amount that is spent on would be taken into account. Can the Governor elaborate about his views on this matter please?

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

Certainly. I was not announcing any new departure at all. I said two things. What I said was lenders have the flexibility to lend above the restrictions because of the allowance system that we have. Lenders need to make decisions based partly on their own assessment of risk or their own credit risk policies. There is nothing preventing them from considering the potential borrowers track record in making that decision.

Is that is only within the scope that they have for applications?

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

That is right. The other thing that I said was that I was very conscious of the issue that I was asked about earlier, which is the challenge that potential borrowers have to save for a deposit when they are renting. That interaction is something we are giving careful consideration to in our review of the overall mortgage measures framework that we are doing but I will not announce anything on that tomorrow. We will conclude that next year.

As far as the shared equity scheme, I invite the committee to read the material we publish tomorrow.

We will do that. I thank the Governor.

We wait with bated breath.

On paying rent and the ability to raise the deposit, the Governor talked about banks having flexibility. Has that flexibility being used? Have figures been collated on where that flexibility is being used? I ask because many people have told me that they do not feel that there is any flexibility being exercised when they deal with lenders. Maybe some data has come back to the Central Bank that he might be able to share with us.

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

I am very happy to share whatever data we have with the committee. I have not seen anything specifically around the rental question. On the other hand, lenders have the capacity to lend beyond the restrictions using the allowances that exist. Those allowances are used and I know that. If we have any more information to enlighten the specific point that the Deputy is interested in we will let him have it.

I appreciate that.

My apologies for arriving post-haste because, unfortunately, everything in my office crashed yesterday and that makes things difficult.

Inflation has the capacity to undo an awful lot of the hard work that is being done on the recovery from the financial crash and the ongoing pandemic. It is expected that inflation will level off somewhat as we come towards the end of the year and the beginning of next year. What issues are most likely to contribute to inflation? What issues are most likely to contribute to the reverse?

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

Apologies to the rest of the committee because I am going to repeat some of the stuff that I said earlier. Inflation right now, today, is being driven by three things. It is being driven by what we call base effect, which is just the statistical phenomenon of the way inflation is measured looking back 12 months. The reality is that 12 months ago prices fell everywhere as we were in the middle of the pandemic. We are now coming out of the pandemic and out of restrictions. That measurement process is feeding into the calculation of a number that we are seeing.

Second, inflation right now is the result of supply chain blockages. With the restrictions having been lifted, we have had a significant increase in demand and supply has struggled to meet that increased demand. This is partly because of very practical things as I mentioned earlier. Container ships are in the wrong places to transport goods from Asia here, for example. This is also partly because of the sheer scale of demand on the part of consumers.

Finally, inflation right now is being driven by an increase in energy prices. All of these are affecting the whole world to some extent or another. Over the next 12 months we see those pressures dissipating. So the base effects or measurement point will probably be the first to start to be seen because it will fall out of the calculation. Hopefully, we expect supply chains to get back to some sort of normality and to certainly work in a way that meets demand. We see a consequent impact as well on energy prices.

Essentially, we see current inflation beginning to dissipate from the start of next year and slowly be seen throughout 2022. If supply chains do not get repaired, for example, then obviously that prevents normality and that may have an impact on how long inflation persists. Certainly, it is not going to disappear overnight.

Is there evidence of hoarding, particularly of fuel? Are containers or tankers anchored offshore? Is there evidence of any other artificial means of creating inflation? If so, what can be done to address the issue?

Mr. Gabriel Makhlouf

I am not aware of any evidence of hoarding of the sort that the Deputy has described. Those sorts of issues are unlikely to be things that the Central Bank itself will be able to deal with. We have not seen any evidence of that sort of thing happening.

That brings us to the end of this fascinating session. On behalf of the committee, I thank the Governor and Dr. Cassidy for being here today.

I hope today will not be the only time we see our guests. I thank them for their contributions to the committee.

The select committee adjourned at 7.30 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 8 December 2021.
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