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Committee on Budgetary Oversight díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Nov 2023

Existing Levels of Service Costs: Discussion (Resumed)

I welcome from the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council Professor Michael McMahon, acting chairperson; Dr. Eddie Casey, chief economist; and Mr. Killian Carroll, economist.

Before we begin, as is my duty, I will explain the limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses regarding references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or any official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in the meeting. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

I now invite Professor McMahon to give his opening statement.

Professor Michael McMahon

The council is grateful to the Chair and members of the committee for inviting us to appear before them again. As they know, we value these engagements and see them as an integral part of our work. This meeting in particular is a welcome opportunity to discuss how existing levels of service, ELS, costs are formed, how they differ from our own stand-still costs and why estimating such costs is so important for fiscal budgeting. We know the committee is interested in how the calculations work and how the costs are expected to evolve. We are happy to shed some light on this. As the Cathaoirleach said, I am joined by Mr. Killian Carroll and Dr. Eddie Casey. I will defer to them for some of the questions in the weeds. I also apologise to the committee for the slightly longer than usual opening statement, but we felt it was useful to get quite a lot down on the page first of all. I will get through it as quickly as I can.

First, I want to make a few general points about why this work is important. Understanding the costs of maintaining existing public supports and services is an essential starting point to the budget. It tells us the cost of continuing to do what we are already doing. We label this the stand-still cost, the cost of standing still. In other words, it is a matter of just maintaining what you already do. In health, for instance, this entails maintaining the same number of doctors or nurses per patient, paying them the same relative wages, administering the same drugs, all while reflecting a larger and older population. For a long time, Irish budgets have focused primarily on the new things we can do with each budget day package. This focus made more sense in a time when price inflation was relatively low and demographic pressures were less pronounced. However, Ireland has recently had to grapple with increased price pressures in the wake of the pandemic and the war in Ukraine. As well as that, demographic pressures are coming to bear more and more as Ireland’s population ages quickly. These two factors magnify stand-still costs.

Understanding stand-still costs, as I said, is essential to good budgeting. The pressures are in some senses unavoidable and so should be planned for. Accounting for them properly can give policymakers a more accurate sense of what space is left over for new measures. The council has been providing estimates of stand-still costs for over five years now. The approach involves a few steps. First, we develop projections of population changes and ageing to assess demographic pressures. These draw on a pretty standard cohort component method. Second, we use macroeconomic forecasts to assess price and wage pressures, as well as other macro changes. Third, we combine these inputs through a cell-based macro simulation to estimate expenditure changes.

There are a few caveats, as with all forecasting, in relation to stand-still costs. The approach does not consider possible efficiency gains or policy changes that could generate savings. The focus is on current spending, although capital spending also faces pressures from prices and population growth. It is purely a planning input. We are not advocating indexation as a policy, merely showing its likely costs. When we do it, we assume public sector pay rises in line with the general economy unless there is a public sector pay deal in place. This assumption implies the public sector is neither better nor worse off relative to the private sector. Finally, we work hard to identify appropriate population cohorts and price drivers to model how spending will evolve. This draws on assessments of historical trends.

The official ELS estimates are calculated in a way that is a little bit different. The term “ELS” has been used for years, well before Covid-19. It is in the summer economic statement from 2018, for instance. Typically, ELS was used to refer to the costs of maintaining services just one year ahead. This would take account of demographics, price pressures and other macroeconomic factors, like unemployment. While one-year ahead calculations can be quite detailed, ELS calculations for further ahead typically are not. The summer economic statement in 2021 introduced a simple 3% assumption for two years ahead and beyond, that is, the estimated cost of maintaining existing levels of service was estimated as being equivalent to 3% of existing spending. The 3% figure itself was based on an assessment of typical pressures arising in historical budgets. This remains a rule of thumb for costs facing the Government in the years after the budget year.

Looking to next year, 2024, the Department estimated ELS costs to be €1.8 billion, or 2.4% of the core current expenditure base. These costs do not factor in the costs associated with a potential public sector pay deal for 2024, which is typically included in ELS costs, although there remains €0.85 billion unallocated current expenditure for 2024 and this will likely be used to fund any pay deal.

Looking further ahead, the Department assumes ELS costs equivalent to 3% of current spending, which means €2.4 billion in 2025 and €2.5 billion in 2026. The Council’s stand-still estimate for 2024 was €4.5 billion and averages close to €5 billion annually for 2025 and 2026. Of this, demographics are €1.7 billion and price and wage pressures are €3.4 billion. As inflation recedes, stand-still costs average €4.6 billion from 2027 to 2030. Unlike the ELS calculations, these specifically look at demographics, the costs of maintaining welfare rates and public sector pay in line with general wage growth and the cost of other inflationary pressures. They also maintain Ukrainian supports and Covid-19 spending.

I will now talk a little bit about health in particular. In the lead-up to budget 2024, there was widespread coverage of potential health overruns. Despite this, the budget 2024 allocation for health was less than the expected 2023 overrun, plus the estimated stand-still costs for 2024.

Budget 2024 provided an increase of €0.8 billion for core current health spending in 2024. Of this, €0.7 billion was to maintain the existing level of service. This is less than the council’s stand-still estimate for 2024 of €1.1 billion, of which €0.8 billion is for demographics and €0.3 billion is for higher prices. A potential public sector pay deal would add to this, but there are some unallocated funds to cover it.

It is possible that non-core spending related to Covid-19 within the health Vote could be used to cover ELS costs. If so, this would bring the health allocations to just €0.1 billion shy of the council’s stand-still estimates as the Covid amounts for health are set to increase by €0.3 billion in 2024.

As well as the gap to stand-still costs, there is a possible overrun in 2023 that will raise the overall level of health spending. Health spending was running €0.6 billion ahead of forecasts going into the budget. Once overruns occur, it is important that a detailed assessment be carried out. This should involve assessing the factors driving recent overruns to highlight where ELS costs have been underestimated. Failing this risks repeating the overruns.

It is also important that budgets take a forward-looking approach. The ELS’s 3% assumption is based on Ireland’s historical experience. However, this is not necessarily a good guide to what we can expect in future. The population is ageing rapidly and price pressures may continue to remain higher than historical levels over the next few years. As such, these pressures may well be more significant than we experienced in the past.

A part of the problem facing healthcare spending is not new. In 2021, the council published research showing that health overruns had been a feature of Ireland’s experience for a considerable number of years, making up more than half of total annual spending overruns. Health overruns averaged €590 million annually from 2015 to 2019, with €260 million due to hospitals and €148 million due to community primary care services. About two thirds was pay related or staffing related.

The overruns will not be surprising. What might surprise is that our 2021 analysis suggested they are fairly predictable. In other words, the size of the overruns corresponded closely to the additional amounts that would have been needed to stand still. Simply allowing for stand-still costs in full would have been broadly sufficient to cover both the planned allocations and the overruns eventually seen.

Part of the problem seems to be that hospital and primary care budgets are often set very tight, maybe with the hope that efficiencies will be generated. This might have had more merit if it had a record of producing savings or preventing overruns. Instead, providing limited budget increases in big spending areas appears to have set the scene for spending overruns. This looks like a failure of planning, coupled with wishful thinking.

What economists call a “soft budget constraint” seems to have taken hold. Managers know overruns will be financed, so there is little incentive to stick to ceilings and create efficiencies. That is not to say healthcare spending cannot be made more efficient. Ireland ranks as a high spender on health internationally, even with a relatively young population today. This is particularly evident for outpatient services – daily hospital services excluding overnight or longer-term hospitalisations. However, Ireland has had more average spending on capital areas and still has a middling rank when it comes to its health infrastructure.

Staff planning could be far better. The HSE’s pay-and-numbers strategy is meant to give detailed information on the number of staff to be hired; yet this is often submitted at the end of the year in question or, at the earliest, in February of the same year.

Spending on an older population is likely to continue to grow. The number aged over 65 will more than double by 2050. Over-65s are also expected to live three years longer on average by then. This means more pressure by way of annual increases for healthcare and pensions just to stand still. The council’s long-term projections suggest annual public spending related to ageing will rise by 4.8 percentage points of GNI* between 2023 and 2050 – about €14 billion in today’s money.

To address these challenges, healthcare spending forecasts need to be more realistic and developed earlier. That means taking account of long-term demographics, price pressures and increased demands as people’s incomes rise.

More generally, if we realistically wish to generate savings in health, a more strategic approach is needed. This might involve a larger-scale review of health spending independently led and supported by IGEES economists. It would not need to be driven by an overarching objective to cut pay or staff numbers, but to find savings and to develop more effective ways of using the same staff and resources, hence making for a better work environment.

Good fiscal decision-making requires good budgeting, which, crucially, involves understanding the costs of maintaining existing public supports and services as an essential starting point. We thank the committee for hearing us out, particularly given the longer opening statement, and for the opportunity to discuss this aspect of Irish fiscal policy. We look forward to answering members’ questions.

The long statement was good and interesting. I will have to leave during the slot to deal with the Finance (No. 2) Bill, so I will just ask Professor McMahon a priority question. Maybe I will have time to contribute again later.

Could Professor McMahon outline exactly how he determined that the Government had €850 million in unallocated current expenditure moneys to cover the pay deal? Are there other commitments outlined by the Government that may need to be honoured through the €850 million, or is it solely for the public pay deal?

Professor Michael McMahon

I will start and then ask Mr. Carroll to contribute. When we say the money will likely be used, we believe the fact that it is unallocated means we do not know what it will be used for. The assumption is that it is available as a contingency to cover, potentially at least, a pay deal. To be clear, the money has not been set aside for this, and our statement refers to what it could be used for.

I understand that.

Professor Michael McMahon

Does Mr. Carroll want to answer on how we calculate the €850 million?

Mr. Killian Carroll

It was through examining the figures in the expenditure report. There were several tables, and multiple tables had to be combined to arrive at the figure of €850 million. It is unallocated only on the current side; there are other unallocated sums on the capital side.

Where did the €850 million in the tables come from? Could that be explained to me in 60 seconds?

Professor Michael McMahon

The basic approach is that we get headline numbers for how much is allocated for each of the core Vote areas. We also get different tables that tell us how much of the core Vote is allocated – within, say, one Department. With regard to health expenditure, the tables tell us how much is allocated for current expenditure and how much for capital expenditure. In other areas, the current expenditure is broken down into different amounts. It is by taking the headline number as the total and stripping out the various bits that we know what has been allocated for specific-----

It is what is left over that has not been allocated

Professor Michael McMahon

It is the residual. It is basically what does not add up.

I will not ask any more questions for now because I really have to get to the Dáil for 6 o’clock, but maybe I will get to contribute again. I will have several other questions to ask if they have not been asked by then.

Was any comment made on the fact that the Department previously broke into various headings? I am referring to the breakdown of ELS. The information seems to have disintegrated or lessened in recent years. This is a point we made last week. We sent the witnesses out with the message that in no circumstances could we, as members of a budgetary oversight committee, be satisfied with less information. There has been more information on headings under which existing levels of service are calculated, so it is hard to believe it is more opaque now.

Professor Michael McMahon

I believe we agree it should be available. When we produce our stand-still reports, it is actually very simple for us to do the breakdown. This is because we have separately modelled demographics. I am not claiming every demographic forecast is perfect but demographics comprise one of the easiest things in the world to forecast because people get older by a year each year. Knowing how the population blocs will move through is quite easy. The harder part is mapping how this will translate into price and spending pressures, but again there are historical experiences that one can work off across different types of budgets. Some areas, like health, are very sensitive to groups in the older age range.

Again, we can track that. Once we have done so, we will have a number that makes up the standstill cost related to demographics. The harder part, although theoretically simple, is to split out the price pressures. Once an assumption is made as to how prices will adjust from one sector to the other and apply that to this year's spending, the equivalent amount for the same amount of spending next year can be worked. Once those are combined, it is quite easy. The process we have for calculating standstill costs, which we outlined in the opening statement, makes that disaggregation very transparent and easy to do. Part of our mandate is to consider the process by which the Government sets budgets. We should come to the same conclusion. The output should be that we get these numbers out of the Government budget easily. Our deeper question is around the process by which we come to the ELS numbers that makes it hard to make that split. The answer we would get is that they come up through negotiation and decisions.

That was the answer.

Professor Michael McMahon

That is not a systematic and process-based answer. Process could be an easier part of budgeting. It is hard to budget, particularly across Departments, and we do not have to get involved in it. However, this particular aspect of it should be quite straightforward.

It should be broken down for us, as members, to allow us to be in a position to comment and reflect on to ensure that adequate and better provision is made.

Dr. Eddie Casey

One of the exercises we suggest would be to look backwards and ask if we have provisioned enough for demographics and prices in the past and to ask where we are getting things wrong. We cannot do that if no split has been provided in the first place to allow us to look back and identify areas where-----

The point has been made that average life expectancy will increase again in the years to come.

When looking at health, Professor McMahon referred in his submission to a "review of health spending independently led and supported by IGEES economists". Will he elaborate on that?

Professor Michael McMahon

I will give a general answer. We have called on many occasions recently for a form of spending review or evaluation to take place as a useful exercise. It should not only happen once a decade or every 20 years but on a relatively regular basis. It is natural that the budgetary process focuses on increments and new things but every so often, it makes sense to ask where we are, as a society, and where we think spending should be focused. Health is no different.

It is difficult to question spending in health. We are pilloried for questioning and seeking value for money in the health sector because there should be an almost unending pot to deal with everything the sector is presented with. For the likes of the CEO to say the HSE is not getting enough money raises the question of where is his responsibility. What provisions has he made? What savings can he make that could contribute to better care and delivery of services? Has its spending been independently assessed or reviewed in respect of the contracts it renews on a regular basis?

Professor Michael McMahon

Having taken the other side a moment ago, I will take the HSE's side for a moment, being a proper, two-sided economist. As we point out, one of the issues that makes things difficult for the HSE is that the ELS or standstill costs are not calculated appropriately but it is still asked to deliver the same services. We are not saying the HSE should not deal with people over 70 years old. That demographic has grown predictably and yet each year, the budgets are chasing their own tails. Each year, it looks as if the health sector is not delivering but some changes are predictable. As the note from Dr. Casey and Mr. Carroll showed, looking at the demographics, we could have done a much better job in advance of establishing the amount we would need to provide a level of service. At the second stage, we need a conversation to decide on the appropriate level. That is for the political process to do. If that level is too much or too little, we adjust and choose where revenue sources are going to come to pay for that service. There is a problem at the moment on the budget side of the health sector whereby we do not budget correctly and then look at overruns and think the sector has completely lost the run of itself when if we had budgeted correctly, overruns would be small and we would not be thinking they are completely out of control. There are two elements to the issue and we really need both and not just one to be sorted out.

Does Dr. Casey wish to elaborate on the independent study I mentioned?

Dr. Eddie Casey

This idea for a study could be very useful. We in Ireland often have the experience of suddenly firefighting and finding ourselves with a hole in the public finances that requires us to embark on austerity measures. That is a very bad time to have a strategic overhaul of spending because we are just looking for savings wherever we can find them. It is not done in a clever fashion. At a time like this when there is relatively more abundance and a bit of breathing time, we should use it as an opportunity to look back over what we are doing and where we can make things more effective. Health is the only place we should be starting on this front. We have had spending reviews for a long time now and IGEES has been around for a while. The focus has tended to be on lots of different areas but health is clearly a perfect area into which to sink our teeth. It needs to be done comprehensively.

Along the line of what the Cathaoirleach is saying, it is sometimes hard to see the data. We find ourselves asking all the time in respect of health where the data is. The long-standing problem the sector has had is that there is no good set of information systems in place. A lot of the information is very hard to get and not in a great format. That means trust is more likely to break down between the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform, on the one hand, and the Department of Health on the other. If they are talking to each other but no one is able to draw on good information about what is actually happening, it is a perfect environment for distrust to grow. That is what we are seeing a little. There needs to be a bit of quid pro quo. In order for the health service to get money, which we think it probably needs just to stand still, it needs to be able to show that good planning and good information systems are place. How is that done? A bit of money probably needs to be spent to save money in the long run. There is an element of not going down the road of penny-pinching but spending to save money in the long run.

That is a good point. It is something we will take on board and be conscious of in our recommendations after this round of discussions about the whole ELS issue. It is a bad night for a meeting because the finance Bill is going through the Dáil. I again thank the witnesses for making themselves available and placing on record their responses, views and opinions on the matter, and for the recommendations they have made. We will seek to take their contributions on board and they will form a part of our response to the Department when we have completed this process.

Professor Michael McMahon

If any of the committee members remember any questions they forgot to ask, I ask them to get in touch and we will be happy to take them.

We will do that.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.09 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 29 November 2023.
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