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Committee on Budgetary Oversight díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 6 Mar 2024

Stability Programme Update: Discussion

As members know, the stability programme update, SPU, report is due to be published in mid-April by the Department of Finance. It will set out Ireland's medium-term economic outlook on fiscal plans. Its publication indicates the beginning of the preparation for budget 2025. Our committee will undertake ex ante scrutiny of the SPU to understand the current fiscal context, engage with stakeholders on these issues and allow for greater parliamentary engagement and transparency being given to the budgetary process.

On behalf the committee I welcome the following representatives from the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, Dr. Kieran McQuinn, Dr. Conor O'Toole and Ms Lea Hauser.

I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege, and the practices of the Houses with regard to references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. This means they have an absolute defence against defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege. It is my duty, as Chair, to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with this direction.

Members are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses, or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, if any member intends to participate from outside the precincts, he or she will be asked to leave the meeting.

I invite Dr. Kieran McQuinn to give his opening statement.

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

I thank the Chair for the invitation to the ESRI to appear before the committee. I am joined by my colleagues, Dr. Conor O'Toole and Ms Lea Hauser. We are grateful for the opportunity to appear before the committee to provide our views on the present economic and fiscal situation and to discuss some key issues and risks the medium-term fiscal strategy should consider.

With regard to the economic outlook, the pace of growth across most western economies in the last quarter of 2023 has been moderating. This has implications for the small and open nature of the Irish economy, compounded by the fact that the sectors responsible for the strong growth since the start of and during the pandemic are now experiencing a slowdown in growth rates. These sectors are largely made up of export-oriented foreign companies that have been affected by the international trade slowdown.

The latest data show a divergence between the sectors dominated by foreign and domestic companies. While the domestic sectors have maintained a moderate pace of growth, certain sectors dominated by foreign companies have declined sharply in their growth rates. Modified investment is slowing down too, primarily driven by a fall-off in investment activity, which still contains certain activities of multinational firms.

A crucial issue for the domestic economy over the next 12 to 18 months is the extent to which investment picks up again following the slowdown caused by the high interest rate environment. Recent research by Egan and McQuinn highlights the contractionary impact of higher interest rates on residential investment across the euro area. Consumption growth is plateauing, with competing factors at play: the ongoing robust labour market performance is being offset by high interest rates, dwindling savings accumulated during the pandemic and ongoing cost-of-living pressures. Inflation, although no longer growing sharply, is proving to be more persistent than expected. The gradual decline in energy prices and the subsequent second-round effects can already be observed, but inflation remains elevated. Therefore, estimates of core inflation and food prices should return in the direction of normality in the course of 2024.

Unemployment remained low in 2023 and the slight increase that occurred was partly due to a classification issue reported by the CSO. Although some indicators, such as GDP, international trade and investment, hint towards a slowdown in economic activity, employment is still growing in the Irish economy. This underlines the difference between the headline indicators and the actual performance of the domestic economy. Given these combining factors, we believe modified domestic demand, MDD, will grow, but at a modest pace, in 2024.

Despite the current economic slowdown, newly published ECB data on household and consumer expectations show that Irish households are more positive in 2023 than in 2022 with regard to key economic indicators, such as house price trends, inflation and economic growth expectations. For 2024, most respondents expect house prices to rise but at a lower rate than was expected for 2023. The same applies to inflation. Although almost all respondents expect inflation to rise in 2024, the extent is less pronounced.

I turn now to concentration risks, overheating and the housing market. Looking at the overall macroeconomic picture, the Irish economy has weathered challenges well, such as Covid-19 and inflation, and we believe the macroeconomic outlook for 2024 points towards continued modest growth. As much of the recent growth in the domestic economy has been due to the performance of key multinational sectors, the influence and dependence on a small number of very large firms is again becoming more evident. In particular, the pharmaceutical and ICT sectors have seen significant growth in both value added and employment in recent years. As mentioned in several commentaries, the exceptional performance of these sectors makes the domestic economy vulnerable to a significant correction or contraction in either sector. Indeed, these dynamics have been evident in 2023 as a contraction in pharmaceutical exports contributed to the predicted decline in GDP.

This concentration of risk is even more important in regard to corporation tax receipts as this has an impact on fiscal policy and the domestic economy. Numerous agencies, as well as the Department of Finance, have indicated a notable component of corporation tax as windfall in nature, suggesting this may not continue at the present level of receipts.

In this regard, the announcement to establish the future Ireland fund and the climate and nature fund in the recent budget is commendable. The deployment of a notable component of the windfall receipts to capital funding is prudent and ensures they do not feed into current spending. This is particularly important considering the growth rate of corporation tax revenues has slowed in 2023. These funds are, furthermore, important as they have a countercyclical effect and represent an instrument that reduces dependence on the economic cycle and key multinational sectors in the future. The funds aim to address serious capital deficits and pressure that are impacting the Irish economy, in particular on the issues of climate change and planning for issues around population ageing. It is evident that significant investment is needed in the Irish economy across a broad variety of headings.

Another area where the domestic economy is likely to face continued pressure over the medium term is the housing market. Despite reaching a 16-year high, with 32,695 completed units in 2023, surpassing the milestone of 30,000 apartments for the first time, housing supply remains insufficient. Estimates by Bergin and Garcia-Rodriguez in 2020 indicate that the structural demand for housing in the Irish economy is approximately 35,000 units per annum. It was pointed out that these numbers are underestimating the actual need for housing with regard to the higher immigration numbers than those used in the projections. By the end of April 2023, Ireland measured the highest population growth since 2008, which underlines the argument that structural housing demand will be revised upwards. This means that the demand for housing will continue to exceed the supply over the medium term.

Furthermore, looking at housing construction figures in comparison to other European countries, it becomes clear that Ireland was among the countries with the lowest investment in housing in the EU in 2022, only exceeding Greece, Poland, and Bosnia and Herzegovina. As a result, the rise in house prices and rents is likely to continue, albeit at a slower pace in the case of house prices, considering the data.

I will now deal with the public finances. The developments in taxation revenues in 2023 reflect the overall trend in the Irish economy. While there has been an increase in tax receipts, mainly driven by income tax, VAT and corporation taxes, the pace of growth in 2023 was somewhat less than the two previous years. Additionally, the State’s debt position continues to improve, with debt ratios declining. While growth is anticipated across several tax headings, the growing vulnerability of the public finances to concentration risks is particularly apparent, as the ICT and pharma-related sectors continue to account for most corporation tax receipts. It is clear that the pressures on the public finances going forward will be significant. Growing demand for investment in both physical and social infrastructure, coupled with the challenge of climate change, means Government expenditure levels are set to increase on a sustained basis over the medium term.

To conclude, the Irish domestic economy continues to grow, albeit at more modest rates than in recent years. At this point, we expect this moderate but sustained growth path is likely to continue in the present year and into 2025. While the internationalised sectors of the economy have provided a buffer to external shocks in recent years, there are growing risks to the concentration of activity in these sectors. In terms of public finances management, the growing needs of the economy in terms of both current and capital spending need to be balanced against the economy operating at close to full employment. Managing this balance is critical in the coming period. We look forward to any comments or questions the committee members may have.

We move to questions and comments from members arising from the presentation. As Deputies Moynihan and Durkan are not present, I call Deputy Conway-Walsh.

I thank Dr. McQuinn for his statement. We have statistics that show there has been a decline each year since 2020 in real wages and a decline in core social welfare payments. What is the potential link between real wages and high-level economic indicators like MDD?

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

In a sense, what is happening with regard to real wages is the increase in inflation, which is eroding real wages. What we have seen is negative growth rates as far as real wages are concerned, certainly for 2022 and into 2023. For this year, we expect nominal wage growth to continue to increase in the region of 3.5% to 4%, and our expectation is that the inflation rate will be somewhat below that, so by the end of this year, we are looking at growth in real wages for the first time in quite some time.

What has happened over the last few years, notwithstanding that, is that households have been able to deal with this in the following way. Since Covid, we have seen a substantial increase in the savings rate across the economy. At one stage, it was 25% to 30%, which is very high.

It was quite high last year, although the CSO revised it downwards midway through the year. Nonetheless, households, although not every household of course, on average seemed to have built up a significant buffer. That seemed to sustain consumption levels. Its effect on economic activity is seen essentially through the consumption channel and whether people are spending money, even if their real wages are stagnant or declining. We continue to see strong consumption growth. Part of the challenge was stripping out the Covid effect. We had these wild oscillations of no consumption and dramatic declines in consumption and then, when public health measures were eased, we saw this huge surge in consumption, etc. As that was stripped out, we saw that households were still consuming, mainly on the back of the savings buffers that were there. As we move into the present year, those buffers are certainly being wound down but the pressure, as far as real wages are concerned, is beginning to ease. We are beginning to see, and will see, some growth in real wages this year.

Dr. Conor O'Toole

The main channel Dr. McQuinn described is that when there is a reduction in real incomes, there is reduced purchasing power for households. That means modified domestic demand, through lower household spending in the consumption channel, ends up in the national accounts. That was offset by a number of factors. Supports were in place to try to target some of the spending power, especially for low-income households. Over and above that, as Dr. McQuinn said, there was the carryover of very considerable savings on an aggregate basis. These were obviously not distributed equally across the economy but from the macroeconomy's perspective, overall, that higher savings ratio allowed the economy to continue to grow in consumption terms.

I am trying to get at where things are now. If we expect real wages to increase this year, how much is left? We have no breakdown of that average. It is just an average across the board. We have no information on household savings. I am trying to get a picture of how much household savings have been eroded. Do we even have any breakdown of how much is still left in household savings? Dr. McQuinn said that real wages will increase this year for certain. Is that based on the reduction in inflation? When we look at food prices, for instance, they are still quite high even in terms of deflation. Does the ESRI expect food prices to come down? When inflation was mentioned, is it that prices will normalise at what they are now?

Dr. Conor O'Toole

In our most recent commentary, when we last did our inflation forecasts, we expect the rate of inflation to moderate down towards 3% for 2024. With the tight labour market, we still expect wages to grow by more than that. We expect, on aggregate, to have real wage growth in the economy. When the buffer provided by the savings element is lost, it would be expected that real consumption growth would come down much closer to real wage growth. The pre-Covid savings ratio was approximately 10% in the long run. We are getting back to close to that figure now. I expect, into this year, that the majority of excess savings will be wound down and we will be back to the situation we had pre-Covid, where we are talking about consumption being driven by the labour market, real income growth and chasing-----

Most households would feel that way in that they saw the erosion by inflation of anything they had over that time.

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

On information on savings, we know year in, year out the average overall total savings. We only get information on how it is broken down by households every couple of years in what is called the household finance and consumption survey, HFCS, which is only done every four or five years. That gives information at a household level, including what households, according to the distribution-----

When is that due again? It would be interesting to look at it.

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

The most recent one was in 2020. The next will probably be in 2025. They are usually done at four- or five-year intervals. It would be ideal is to have it on an annual basis.

On the Deputy's question on real wages, it is a combination of increased nominal wages and a decline in the inflation rate. The point she made is very valid. While we talk about declining inflation rates, the bottom line is the actual price level is still a good bit higher now than it was in 2021 or 2022.

On food, when we say, "food prices", do we include food that is available through restaurants, outlets and all of that? I am thinking of the impact on hospitality. Is it food in the-----

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

Is that in the basket?

Dr. Conor O'Toole

The measures of inflation have various components split out. These include expenditure on recreational activities and expenditure separately set out on food items in stores, which relates to food expenditure. It pops up in different places in the basket depending on-----

I need to ask about housing. The ESRI stated, "Ireland was among the countries with the lowest investment in housing in the EU in 2022, only exceeding Greece, Poland, and Bosnia and Herzegovina." That is quite shocking. Will the representatives expand on what exactly is included in that regard and the potential impact on house prices, rents and the availability of housing? The ESRI further stated that public opinion is more positive regarding house prices. Does that mean that people expect house prices to stabilise, come down or increase? Positive can mean different things to people.

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

In terms of sentiment, when people are positive, it means they think house prices will continue to increase. That is what "sentiment" means. It is that people think house prices will continue to increase. That is how it is classified.

There are probably a number of different factors. If we look at the underlying trend regarding supply levels, and Covid has obviously distorted it a little because construction sites were initially included in the public health response, there was a dramatic fall-off in housing supply in the first year of Covid and then, suddenly, in the second year of Covid, when construction sites were open, we saw this big surge in activity. The underlying position, certainly over the past four or five years, is one of increasing supply. It is gradually picking up, albeit from a very low base. As we said, we will see more than 32,000 units in 2023, which is the highest since 2010 or 2011. This year, our expectation is we will, at least, see that again. Based on commencements data, we expect to get somewhere in that region again.

The issue, however, and other people have flagged this as well but we have also pointed it out quite a bit, is it is now clear that the main real driver of housing supply in the market is the Government. It has been playing an increasing role in that. As we alluded to in the statement, the high-interest rate environment we have been in over the past period, and will be in over the coming quarters, has raised interest rates, which is proven to have quite a negative effect on housing supply, particularly in the private sector. We are seeing a gradual pick-up in supply but it is being driven by a significant increase in Government expenditure in that area. That is something we welcome-----

Why is it then so low? If we were the lowest in the EU in 2022, is the ESRI saying-----

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

It is coming from a low base.

-----everything has been made up? If we are lowest to invest across the EU, with the exception of the countries I mentioned, but we are saying that Government investment is being carried out-----

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

It is coming from a very low base. That is the issue.

-----that seems to contradict it.

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

Only six or seven years ago, we were down as low as 10,000 or 11,000 units, which is very low. That all goes back to the role of the financial crisis, etc. It is only in the past three or four years we have begun to see a pick-up in investment levels.

Has a cumulative demand built up over the years? If this were a normal year, and everything had been going normally in respect of us building to meet demand, then 30,000 would be okay, but because we have that legacy effect we need to redouble that.

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

Exactly. That is a point we will be making. Our colleagues will be updating their analysis. It is hoped to have the structural demand figures published in April because of the new immigration levels, and population levels generally.

The point we will also be making is the figure we talk about is to meet the increase in demand for a given year, due to the population demographic factors. It does not factor in the issue of that target not being met over the past seven or eight years, so there is a pent-up demand. Therefore, the actual number of houses we need to build his higher than that.

Sitting suspended at 6 p.m. and resumed at 6.18 p.m.

Is Dr. McQuinn happy that he had responded to the question in its entirety or, more to the point, had Deputy Conway-Walsh-----

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

I think the question was not finished.

Did Deputy Conway-Walsh want to elaborate subsequent to the initial response?

I want to fit it all in together with regard to the legacy of house building and how we need to move from the low-30,000s mark, because it really is not telling us an awful lot about how we are tackling the problem. That is concerning because people's positive outlook is that house prices will keep on increasing and that so many people will be locked out. Obviously, we see rents increasing at significant rates across the country. Maybe the question is not only about people having a place to live but about constraints on economic growth and prosperity, and how that will impact on businesses, multinationals and people who are thinking of locating here.

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

Definitely. People probably feel that house prices will continue to rise because of the fact that while they see that supply levels are increasing, they are below the levels needed to meet the natural demand and to address the backlog.

Nevertheless, the Deputy is correct. It touches on issues of competitiveness, and the National Competitiveness and Productivity Council has cited housing as a key risk for that reason. Anecdotally, we are hearing a lot of information about multinationals raising it as a significant issue from their perspective. They pay probably the best wages in the economy, but if a large proportion of that is going on housing costs, that raises issues for them. It is certainly impacting on competitiveness in the economy.

There is a lot to be done.

I thank the witnesses for their presentation. I apologise for arriving late but I am double-jobbing. We have talked about how the economy is going and so on. In the area of housing, the biggest problem that there is not a functional private housing sector. Some private accommodation is being built in the cities at a density that people can work with and they are selling the blocks to investors, which is all fine and good. That said, a town such as Tuam, where I live, the largest county town in Galway, has no private housing estates. The most recent one was completed in 2007 or 2008 and we have had no private housing since then. As I mentioned in the Dáil today and as I acknowledge, we have had social housing.

We are talking about affordable housing and all the other schemes to try to encourage people to buy houses, but a lot of people with reasonably good jobs and pay, perhaps a couple working, have the wherewithal to take on a mortgage but cannot get a house to buy, whether second hand or new. We talk about the effect that has on a family and what the future will hold for them. Dr. McQuinn spoke about the multinationals but this applies to indigenous companies as well. They may be in expansion mode in demand for their products but they cannot expand because they cannot get the people as they cannot guarantee they will have access to housing. Is this as a big a challenge for the economy as well as just for getting people into houses? How can the private sector housing market be kickstarted?

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

As we were saying in response to previous questions, it goes back to changes we have seen in the mortgage market and banking sector since the financial crisis. The regulatory changes mean it is hard to envisage the credit levels that are extended by financial institutions will meet the requirement needed for the housing demand. That has grown up a funding gap as to who is going to provide the funding. In Ireland, the Government is stepping more and more often into the breach in providing the funding, and there has been a significant increase in capital expenditure. As I said previously, the fact we are in the higher interest rate environment, again, puts the private sector under a bit more pressure to increase supply levels.

The only thing we can point to at present, through schemes under agencies such as the Land Development Agency getting involved with the Croí Cónaithe scheme, is the possibility of crowding in such that State agencies and the private sector would work side by side, which, overall, would lead to more investment than would otherwise be the case. The Government provides investment, but because it also works in certain instances with those in the private sector, helping to unleash some of the planning permissions that have been granted but not acted on, that is way we can bring both public and private sector onstream. There is no doubt, given the scale of supply that is needed, that we need both private and public sector to meet the challenges. We have seen instances where the private sector has been left to do all the activity and it has not worked out. Equally, we have seen instances where the Government is trying to take lead, such as at present, but that is probably not sustainable in terms of the overall size of the increase in supply that is required.

It about schemes such as that, but more generally there is an issue, not least with how we get more basic funding into the market, whether that is Government or private sector funding. It is why we need the institutional funds in there, although, obviously, we have to make sure we do not see housing estates being gobbled up by them. We need as many sources of funding as possible to meet the scale of the supply challenge.

Dr. Conor O'Toole

To add a broad point on where we see it as a constraint, it is definitely one of the major constraints on the economy, in two ways. First, obviously, multinationals are looking to make substantial investments in Ireland and they are able to bring in well-paid employees. They may look to alternative locations around the globe if they feel they do not have the infrastructure around the investment, of which housing is a component. That is one element in which the broad competitiveness of the economy can be affected by housing.

The second issue relates to affordability. If households are spending significant chunks of their wages on housing, they will not have it to spend on other goods and services, and that is an economic cost as well. The impact of the housing crisis is multifaceted across the economy.

As to the Deputy's point about the regional issues, this housing crisis is countrywide. Whereas new supply may be coming online in the big cities such as Dublin, that is even less the case in regional areas. That is a major challenge. Research from the Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland looked at the cost of construction throughout the economy, and in some of the regional areas it was really high. There is a viability challenge, which the industry indicates, to bridge the gap between the costs of construction and how much people can afford to play. That is a challenge. If construction costs are high, we cannot necessarily pull up people's incomes to meet that immediately, so it is about how we can bridge that gap. We need to think about what components of the construction costs we can decompose to manage those construction costs. As Dr. McQuinn has mentioned previously on multiple occasions, land cost is a big element. From our point of view, where we can have better active land management through agencies such as the Land Development Agency is a positive to address that element.

One of the major difficulties we face is that a significant part of the construction costs are just imported in the case of a small, open economy such as that in Ireland. We need to purchase materials on a global scale and we are price-takers in international markets. Maybe we need to think about investing more in how we construct or whether we can use new technologies such as modular building and all the higher productivity ways of producing housing to see if we can get more units for the same inputs.

Just on that point, if we take the case of Athenry, where Dexcom is coming in with 1,200 jobs, a local area plan was done and the councillors increased the amount of land zoned residential to try to make more land available. The regulator could decide that the council is doing something outside the scope of the national planning framework. We would end up with a situation where we are only zoning enough land to meet demand for the next five years and if land is not available, the price of land that is suitable for development goes up and is kept artificially high. I expect that will have to be looked at as a matter of urgency.

The witnesses mentioned using off-site construction, pods and other such approaches. That is great. It is there. Dr. McQuinn talks about the components that make up the cost of housing. Tax is a big one. If the Government were to provide a VAT refund scheme to purchasers of houses, would that fuel inflation or would it do something to help young people buy a house? It is cheaper by a long shot to have a mortgage than to rent a house. If we are trying to bring people back from Australia and every other place to get into construction and build what we need, we need to guarantee them something. I would welcome a response to that point.

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

On the tax, I suppose the use of tax in the construction sector and the property sector more generally has connotations going back to the Celtic tiger era. A lot of studies done after that criticised the use of tax and tax incentives and all of the issues around them. There is no doubt that tax can be a significant component of costs and it is one option to try to lower that as a way of reducing costs generally in the sector. As I said, the only danger with it - this is something which has been noted in lots of previous studies looking at tax incentives - is the extent to which it will get passed on to the customer or to the final house buyer, as opposed to being absorbed by the construction sector itself. Again, it goes back to the point Dr. O'Toole made. We have been looking a good bit at things like land costs and different components of construction. Currently, the Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland, SCSI, estimates that land costs are somewhere in the region of 15% to 20% of the price of a house. As Dr. O'Toole pointed out, most of the costs that go into building a house are to a certain extent really outside the remit of the Government. They are imported either from abroad or wherever. Land is a sizeable component and it is one on which the Government cannot have an impact.

What about the waiving of development charges, which we see at present?

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

Yes, that is another possibility.

Is it not a substantial intervention on the part of the State?

Dr. Conor O'Toole

It is.

What is the development charge in Galway?

Connection to Irish Water, sewage and amenities could amount to between €12,000 and €15,000.

What are the costs in Mayo?

They are all the same.

It is a substantial intervention.

We discussed this issue before when the witnesses were in. The Planning and Development Bill going through the Houses should have a positive impact when we consider that up to 30,000 units are currently held up in planning because the development plan in place at the time they were granted differs from the one that is in vogue now. Hopefully, An Bord Pleanála will no longer be able to adjudicate on the older plan rather than the newer one and it will be obliged to make a decision within a statutory time period, which was not the case up to now. From my perspective, some parties will not go far enough on the judicial review process. That is something that parties will have to produce to the public in the context of the election year that we are in, in order to show some cause or some way or means by which we can go beyond where we are at present.

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

There is no doubt about that. We were in talking about the review of the national development plan. As part of that, we sat down with the interim head of An Bord Pleanála. To be fair, she was very generous with her time and she gave an overview of a lot of the issues. Obviously some of those particular issues have hopefully now been resolved, but there is no doubt that it did cause quite a backlog in terms of planning decisions being delayed, etc. Anything that can improve and make the planning system more efficient is clearly something that would help.

That and energy security are the greatest constraints to the economy at present. Does Dr. McQuinn agree?

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

Yes. Housing is definitely one, and climate change.

We have a problem if emergency provisions are contributing towards the grid today. Some would say it is in hand. There are means by which we want to increase the sustainable production of energy but, again, planning is an issue there too.

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

I saw reports recently about water. I think the Housing Commission has been looking at the availability of water, which is another potential constraint as well.

May I contribute briefly?

Very briefly. Deputy Durkan is waiting.

This is only a rant about the cost of land. I refer to a case when somebody trying to build a house on a site provided by his or her parents and the application is refused because it is an area or pressure zone even though the person has the land free and would have a better chance to build the house. That is another contradiction, but that is another day's work.

I thank the witnesses. This is a most interesting conversation. This is the most pertinent issue and, unfortunately, it has been for some considerable time. Despite having some fairly considerable success in that area in terms of making houses available, it is not fast enough and the lack of houses is the single biggest contributor to housing inflation. The point has been made already that the people who are coming into the country, who we badly need to service the jobs that are available can afford to pay more rent and are more able to purchase houses than most other people because they are on a high income. That is understandably so. It befits their qualifications, etc.

We are in a difficult situation in the short term and, sadly, we are not making the inroads we need to make. I think there are still issues that can be addressed. There is not any one single issue, but there are actions that can be taken that will improve the availability of houses, the building of houses and all that goes with that. Some years ago in my county, we had a situation whereby private sites were developed. There could be 50 sites in an area. I have identified them in my own constituency. In some cases we have done it but in other cases we have not. The point is that it is possible to build houses far more cheaply than the prices available on the market. We are not getting to do that in sufficient numbers to make an impact.

The points have already been discussed. They include taxation, the provision of services, development costs, etc., which taken together increase the unit price of houses for those who want to build a house themselves, either directly or otherwise. An amount of regulations inhibit them.

I wish to inform the Chair that a vote has been called. One way or another, if we cannot do the things that we have to do, by which I mean the country, in the short term, it will not be easy to tell the people this will happen in the long term because the numbers have a tendency to go up.

This is the final point I want to make. I know of properties sold years ago that were governed by the development plans in place for the county. There was a significant amount of chatter about the cost of land. In the final analysis, some of the land was actually free to the builder because of prior arrangements on zoning, which were not necessarily legal and I believe were discouraged at the time. Even though it was virtually free to the builder the houses were the same price as every other house in the area. Unfortunately, the market is going in the wrong direction. Only those who are in a similar situation in relation to employment can afford to buy or build their own houses.

More needs to be done, therefore, and we need to tackle this at several levels, whether through taxation or first-time buyer incentives. I am told by the Minister that certain schemes are very prevalent in my county, for example. I am told that by the housing people as well. However, nobody seems to be able to tell me where, who and how. Every time I go in with a potential purchaser, we are told, "Sorry, you do not qualify under that heading." Then, when we move to something else, we are told, "Sorry, you just missed that heading." Then there is the situation of having too low an income to qualify for a loan and too high an income to qualify for a local authority house.

Lastly, the local authority is virtually a bank nowadays in terms of availability of loans or providing loans for the community. The local authority is a housing agency and, as a housing agency, and under the Act of 1966, which is a long time ago, the job of the local authority is to provide houses under two headings. One is the direct local authority house, and the alternative is a loan to allow the potential purchaser or builder to buy and pay for the house on his or her own. It need not necessarily be on the same basis as a bank but, unfortunately, that is the way it is now.

I will have to ask the witnesses to withhold their answers for the moment and we will come back to them as quickly as we can, if that is okay. I am sorry for the inconvenience and the disturbance to the meeting. We have to suspend for the moment.

Sitting suspended at 6.42 p.m. and resumed at 6.59 p.m.

We resume with Deputy Durkan's question, to which the witnesses wanted to respond.

Dr. Conor O'Toole

To link in with the previous questions, in a sense the kind of theme we have been picking up for quite some time is that, in regard to the long-term unlocking of additional housing supply, to make the Irish market respond more reactively and to provide more housing in general over time in a more efficient manner, we look at the type of supply-side instruments that are in place today. We mentioned such instruments as the development levies.

If we look at the type of supply side instruments in place today, and we have mentioned the development levies, they can be useful. They are short-term measures that work today to unlock housing supply. We mentioned earlier that there are also longer term bottlenecks affecting more efficient working of the functioning planning system and land activation. These are much more difficult structural issues to try to deal with on the supply side of the housing market. There is a place for shorter term measures, to be able to try to speed up housing delivery today, such as site servicing contributions or development levy waivers, but we must also think about the long term and try to understand better how we unlock the long-term constraints in the supply system. It would be a useful framework to think about.

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

We go back to the point, and it is more a challenge really that we identify as much as having any great solution to it, of the structural issues that make it difficult for the private sector on its own to meet the large challenge we face with regard to increasing supply to get back up to somewhere equalling demand. These challenges go back to changes from the financial crisis and changes to the regulation of banks. As a result, we are placing a particular onus on the Government to step into the breach, and there has been a significant increase in capital expenditure.

In the more medium term, the Government cannot provide all of the housing in the State. We need an active private sector to meet the overall challenge. That is a big issue. There is no easy answer to it, particularly when we see that other countries and jurisdictions face much the same problem in getting an overall response to housing supply needs. It is about having a balanced response throughout the country, with the State, the private sector and even the institutional funds being involved. It is a mix that is required. Dr. O'Toole has identified the challenges in the planning system with trying to ensure we get greater efficiency so we get units coming on stream quicker. There is a variety of issues associated with addressing this. There is no one particular silver bullet.

The developers tell us that. To be fair to the private sector, it is making a fair effort to meet deadlines and produce houses, and it has done so. In my constituency, in almost every town and village the pressure is on to build houses and make them available as soon as possible. Ironically, the State is not making the same effort in terms of providing for the sector for which it would ordinarily provide. There is an area that needs to be addressed. When we discuss this with some of the people involved they say they do not want to send the housing market into negative equity. This would not send it into negative equity because the speed at which we are likely to produce them would not send anything into negative equity in the short term or medium term. There is an issue that needs to be dealt with. What else can we do to encourage the State to do the things it can and should do?

Approximately 12 or 14 years ago, when I was tired making the same case to local authorities, I decided along with a couple of our councillors to set up a private limited company. We knew the council had land suitable for private sites. The intention was to hand it over to housing agencies. We made a proposal and it was accepted eventually. We built 96 houses. At the same time, the local authority had affordable houses for sale. We came in 30% lower than the affordable houses. Not one of the houses produced under the scheme went into negative equity during the financial crash. Unless there has been a change of circumstances, the people are still in them and they never went into negative equity. The point is that it worked. It was relatively easy. We had to do all the heavy lifting ourselves on the allocation of loans, with some from banks and some from the local authority depending on the qualification at the time. This is the killer, however. On the day that we handed over the keys the equivalent house on the open market was selling at €410,000 and the most expensive of the houses we provided was €170,000. That speaks for itself. It is possible to do it. I would certainly like to see all options tried in this area.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I have several questions, which the witnesses may or may not be able to answer. A large number of Irish mortgages are owned by vulture funds, which, regardless of interest rate reductions by the ECB, are still charging high interest rates of up to 8% APR. What effect do the witnesses see this as having on consumer confidence and spending picking up, considering the ongoing cost-of-living pressures? Is there anything they can say on that?

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

There is an ongoing issue in the Irish market, which we have looked at quite a bit. This is the issue of the pass-through of interest rates and official policy rates into market rates in Ireland. What we have observed over the past ten years is that since the financial crisis, ECB rates had been declining gradually until two years ago, since when they have been increasing. We found evidence to support a number of reasons we see this poor pass-through relationship and why Irish rates on average have been higher. One is certainly a lack of competition in the market in Ireland. There are also some regulatory issues. Irish banks have to carry higher levels of capital compared with other European banks because of the legacy of the financial crisis. There is this issue in the Irish market, particularly in terms of ordinary retail banks, whereby changes in the official policy rate have not found their way through to the market rates in the same way as they have in other euro area countries.

On the vulture funds, I do not know and cannot comment. I do not have detailed knowledge of these funds. It would be more in terms of the overall market position. From what we have seen, it is interesting to note that when the official policy rates have increased in the past two years, the interest rates in other countries have certainly risen faster than they did here in Ireland. This suggests that perhaps the banks had a degree of a buffer here and were able to absorb some of the official increase before they started to increase the market rates themselves.

My next question also has to do with vulture funds. I am the Sinn Féin spokesperson for older people and I frequently deal with nursing homes. Almost 40% of private nursing homes in the State are owned by 15 firms. They are foreign global investment funds. They pay little or no corporation tax. Concerns have been raised with me about the dependence on a small number of very large firms in certain sectors. Will the witnesses address how this could be balanced out? Collectively, these firms own and control approximately 11,000 beds in nursing homes. We have a large problem. Are there any suggestions that could be given on balancing it?

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

Quite a few people in the institute are looking at health and the provision of healthcare, from primary care to the care Deputy Ryan is speaking about. I am not placed to comment on it authoritatively, to be quite honest. It is something I can refer to my colleagues.

If Dr. McQuinn would not mind, perhaps someone could come back to the committee on it. I would appreciate it.

Dr. Kieran McQuinn

Yes.

I thank the witnesses for making themselves available.

As we start on this process again, it seems like only a few weeks ago since we completed it in the last cycle. I thank the witnesses for their input, their observations, the responses they have given and the detail associated with them. As regards the last question, they will arrange for somebody to give to the committee a response we can pass on to Deputy Ryan. No doubt we will engage in more detail over the course of the year, as we approach various milestones in the year as regards the budget.

The select committee adjourned at 7.11 p.m. sine die.
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