Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 29 Sep 1922

Vol. 1 No. 15

CIVIL ADMINISTRATION.

MINISTER for HOME AFFAIRS (Mr. K. O'Higgins):

A Chinn Chomhairle, the Motion standing in my name is:—

"That in the opinion of this Dáil the Government should, whenever the military situation so permits, take immediate steps for the consolidation and re-establishment of Civil Administration, and should, to that end, rescind the Decree establishing District and Parish Courts, in so far as it has not already been rescinded."

This motion was put down with a view to enabling the Deputies to debate rather fully the question of Civil Administration, and in particular the immediate steps that it is proposed to take towards laying the foundation. Deputies will remember that they cannot be taken now— permanent, far-reaching steps. It is not the time for such steps and the proposals which I intend to outline to the Dáil are meant to meet a purely transitory condition of things. They are proposals put forward with a view to saving the menaced foundations of ordered society in this country, and it is in that spirit and with that outlook that I would ask the Deputies to consider them. Most of us here are familiar enough with the history of the Courts set up under Dáil Eireann. And most of us realise that hastily conceived as they were in a time of stress, that they did do work that it was intended they should do; and they very largely achieved the object for which they were set up. But while we know that, and while we claim that these Courts, to a very large extent, justified their existence, and justified those who set them up, we know that they are not the kind that could remain permanent structures in the administration of justice in the country. In June, 1919, the provision of Arbitration Courts was first suggested and the motion was carried at the Dáil as follows:—"Dáil Eireann decrees the establishment in every County of National Arbitration Courts." In June, 1920, at a Meeting of the Dáil the following was passed:—"Dáil Eireann decrees the establishment of Courts of Justice and Equity and that the Ministry be empowered when they deem fit to establish Courts having Criminal jurisdiction." In the Spring and Summer of 1920 these Courts were set up rapidly throughout the country, until there was scarcely a parish but had its Parish Court, and certainly there was no constituency but had its District Court. On that front just as on the Local Government front the people took from the British administration the control of their own affairs, and under the supervision and superintendence of Dáil Eireann Department left the enemy machine hanging idle with little or no grist going to that particular mill. In that sense I claim that these Dáil Courts fulfilled the object for which they were set up. It was to exhibit to the world the spectacle of a whole people turning from the alien administration to even the rough and hasty administration set up by Parliament and by the Government that was holding its own in the teeth of an armed terror. We have arrived now at a stage when the entire administration of the country has passed into the hands of the people, and can be moulded by the representatives of the people, freely discussing and considering matters in an open Parliament, and it is not the opinion of those who are primarily responsible for that particular machinery, hastily devised as it was, as adequate to the needs of the time. I have therefore to put before this Dáil to-day certain proposals. It is the intention of the Government to appoint with very little delay salaried Magistrates to sit, each in his own area, at a Court of Summary Jurisdiction, having only the jurisdiction of the ordinary Justice in the past. These Magistrates or District Judges cannot be sent out until the Civic Guard are established throughout the country, and they will be sent out as close as possible on the heels of the police force, which must be their executive machinery. That proposal will involve the immediate withdrawal of Commissions given in the past by the British, and of the Commissions given in the past with a specific object in view by Dáil Eireann. I have described this as a temporary measure to meet a purely emergency situation, and it is a measure that is contemplated without prejudice to the report or findings of a Judicial Committee which will be set up to deal with the entire system of justice in the country. That particular Judicial Committee will deal with the administration of justice from the highest to the lowest Courts, and it will have in view the providing for the people of a more convenient and a more economic system of justice. It will have in view the removal of the rather glaring defects of the British system, which was cumbrous, expensive, and not at all suited either to the needs or the genius of this country. There will be about twenty-four or twenty-seven at the most of these District Judges appointed—these temporary salaried Magistrates. It is thought that one of these stationed in a particular centre, and with about nine Court centres around him, having Courts on about twenty days in the month, that at that rate twenty-six or twenty-seven such Magistrates will be sufficient to meet the requirements. I have spoken of the Civic Guard, and I think it is a matter on which Deputies will be anxious to receive information. I have here from the Chief Commissioner of the Civic Guard a report showing that during the last week the Civic Guard were sent out through the country to the following places and in the following strength, viz.:—

Limerick	50
Bruff	20
Ennis	25
Galway	25
Ballinasloe	20
Monaghan	25
Clones	20
Cavan	25
Roscrea	20
Maryborough	25
Kilkenny	25
Naas	25
Carlow	25
Wicklow	25
Mullingar	25
Longford	25
Athlone	25
Granard	20
Letterkenny	25
Buncrana	25

which would account for about 500 men. At the moment the effective strength of the Civic Guard is 1,500 men and officers. In addition to that they are guarding 60 banks in Dublin and District and there are small, comparatively small, posts in the following places:— Swords, Dundrum, Foxrock, Kildare, Newbridge, Clane, Athy, Rathangan, Castledermot, Portarlington. There is a further programme for next week which will practically exhaust the present strength of that force, and it is proposed to proceed energetically with recruiting. Now, as to what is the Government's conception of what this Force should be I would like to speak briefly. These men have gone out through the country absolutely unarmed as a civil Police Force for the protection of the rights and of the property of all the people—of all the people. We do not want to arm this Force if that can possibly be avoided. They have been sent out unarmed. It is an experiment—an experiment which we at least feel bound to make. If that experiment fails, and if it is a failure, as clearly demonstrated to the people and to the Force itself, then the Government must consider the new situation and deal with it as it thinks best. We have no desire to mould this Force on its predecessor, but neither can we agree to place servants of the Government in a position in which they would be shot down defencelessly. I prefer to speak of the future of this Force rather than of its past. Its past has not been a particularly happy one, and it is not considered that any great good would come of delving back into that past, drawing up details and enquiring into exactly whose fault it was that so and so happened. An inquiry was held, and certain officers—wherever the fault lay—tendered their resignations, and those resignations were accepted. The Force is starting a new chapter now, under a new headship, and it gives me genuine satisfaction to report to this Dáil that the spirit of the Force is excellent, and that while I feel that it is inevitable that complaints will come in from the country that the standard of efficiency is not high, I feel there will be very few reports or complaints as to the conduct of the men. That is the thing that matters—the spirit of the Force and the behaviour of the men. As to efficiency and experience, these they will learn just as their predecessors had to learn them. I feel there is in that 1,500 men the germ, the nucleus of a very efficient, highly disciplined, and a self-respecting Force that will be real protectors of the rights and property of the people. Members were sent into that force to make trouble, to play upon the feelings and prejudices of the men, and material was to their hand, and let us say they used that material skilfully and ruthlessly, and with a certain measure of success, if not all the success that was hoped for by the people who sent them in. That particular corner is rounded and that particular chapter is closed. I would ask that in this discussion Deputies should not attempt to reopen it. No good can come of that, and we should turn our minds, just as the men had turned their minds, to the future rather than to the past. There were faults inside and outside that Force. On the whole, reading the report by those who held the inquiry, and reading above all the evidence they took, one could only conclude that it was a very sad and very human story. We dealt with the situation as we found it, and I am satisfied that particular trouble is over, and well over, and that what has happened instead of being a permanent injury to the Force has been a salutary lesson to the men themselves. Lately I said that we were standing amidst the ruins of one administration with the foundations of the other scarcely set. That is the position, and I want Deputies here and people outside to remember that that is the position, and that the things we do as transitory or emergency measures do not affect in any way what we would like to do or will do when laying down the permanent measures for the future administration of justice in the country. But taking the situation as we find it, and starting at the lowest rung of these courts of summary jurisdiction, we feel that a selection of certain men in whom the people will have confidence, and for whom they will have respect, and sending these out through the country with only that limited jurisdiction that their predecessors had, that that at least is a step to holding things together until this Judicial Committee is set up, and reports to Parliament on some secure basis, I hope in better times the situation can be dealt with in a broader way. The magistrates that are to be selected will be drawn from both the two leading professions, and not otherwise. It will be their business to administer the existing law strictly and impersonally. No man will be sent to an area where he himself has any particular ties or associations. They will go out as the Civic Guard goes out, in the name of the whole people, and for the protection and preservation of the rights of all the people. For the present it is not proposed to interfere with the sittings of the ordinary County Courts. That step would only tend to make confusion worse confounded. There are only certain classes of cases which they have jurisdiction to deal with. These cases are of urgent importance. These County Courts will go out on their ordinary autumn session. I trust the people will have sufficient good sense to realise that it would be a very unwise step on the part of a Government, situated as we are, to play the part of the bull in a china shop, and that we should not interfere with the old arrangements until we are ready with cut and dry proposals for our alternative machinery. Let there not be that prejudiced criticism about British Courts. We should try to grow out of that. We should try to grow up as a nation and try to develop the capacity for looking facts in the eye and admit them. These are not British Courts. There are no British Courts in Ireland at present. There are no Courts in this country at the moment that are not Irish Courts, and the authority for making, altering and rescinding of law in this country is now in the hands of the Irish people, through their representatives, and if they have any particular law that the public feel should be repealed or should be altered they have the means at their disposal to repeal or alter it. When we are building we must build on a sure foundation, and we must not build in a hasty, ill-considered way. The Judicial Committee that will be set up will consider and report to the Government on all the difficulties of the old system and the respects in which it fell short of the people's needs and in which it clashed with the people's genius, and the Government will build sure and firm on that report, but until that report is made, and until the alternative machinery can be set up I do feel both the Deputies and the people outside ought to exercise a little of that uncommon quality called common sense in considering this whole matter. This country is, in my opinion, undergoing a test; it is a true test, it is a very severe test, a test which it has not been the misfortune of many countries to have to undergo, but it is none the less a test, and within the next six months we shall know whether or not this country is going to weather that test, whether it is going to take and avail to the full of the opportunities that lie at hand, or whether it is simply going in a fractious, futile way to throw away these opportunities and allow the harvest of the last four years sowing to perish ungarnered in the field. There is a kind of breaking of ties at present, a kind of loosening of the foundations, and we must attempt to meet and counter that, and we must do it firmly, and do it steadily, while remembering that, on the whole, it is perhaps not unnatural under the circumstances. Had the whole unanimous Dáil stood for the Treaty Settlement, there would have been a problem, and a very grave problem, for a transitional Government. There would have been the problem of the reaction from our special conditions of the last three, four or five years—there would have been the problems of the two reactions of the world war, which every country in the world is feeling to-day, and the reaction from our own special conditions of the last few years, and one man, no doubt an honest man, who loved his country well and not wisely, came with his torch to that barrel of gunpowder and multiplied that problem a thousandfold. That is the situation with which we have to deal, and which, if we fail to deal with, spells disaster, perhaps permanent disaster, for the land and the people we are responsible to. A rather general breaking of bands, a disintegration of the moral fibre of the country, a lack of civic sense, a lack of responsibility, a lack of appreciation of the fact that one cannot do things and escape the consequences, and now we are in the position that we cannot blame some other country or people or Treasury for things going wrong We can blame only ourselves. That is what we are faced with, and we must counter that both in word and in action; and it is the duty of everyone who is thinking straightly now, who is thinking clearly amid all this confusion, to express as far as he can express his clear thoughts upon those who are within his influence. It does not matter how efficient the Civic Guard become; it does not matter how efficiently, impersonally, and impartially the new magistrates administer. You are driven back always to that which finds expression in the words, "Unless the Lord keepeth guard over the house, the watchman watcheth in vain." Unless there is a spirit of charity, a spirit of decency, a spirit of civic responsibility inculcated here, the efforts of the Government to set up a firm and stable administration will not avert that collapse of the social and economic fabric which seems imminent. It is a matter for the people themselves, and not for any selected body of people, but for all the people, facing facts, to do the best thing for the Irish nation under the circumstances that have arisen. Padraig Pearse was right when he said that every man and every woman in Ireland carries the Irish nation in his or her heart, and, so far as any man or woman in Ireland departs from decent standards of citizenship the whole nation suffers proportionately, and the whole nation is let down proportionately. Men are standing in the path to-day, armed men, saying to the massed men of this nation, you must not take a certain course. That is a position which never has been conceded here, which never has been conceded in any democratic country. It will not be conceded here. No small section have a right to say, you must go back to war with England. You must, if needs be, make a Thermopylæ of it and go down to the last man. That is not sanity, that is not patriotism. They can keep their high principles, they can keep their own political convictions, but some men must be allowed to work that Treaty settlement for the benefit of the Irish nation; and they must drop back, and they will drop back sooner or later, into the position of constitutional opposition in the attempt to convert the majority of the country to their political creed. But they have not the right to kill this nation, as the nation will be killed if the democratic will of the people is not allowed to prevail. That, perhaps, is not very relevant to the question of the Civic Guard or the rescinding of the decree of the Dáil Courts, but it is relevant to the entire question of the attitude of the people towards the administration that is set up by the Government—that Government which is responsible to the Dáil, and this Dáil which is responsible to the people. It is the people's own machinery, and the man who set his face against it is sinning against the people; and we must develop here, and we will I am sure develop, that civic sense, that sense of responsibility that it is not a fine thing now, as it may have been a fine thing in the past, to break the law, because the law is the people's law, and because the Government and the Parliament that administers all this machinery is the Government and Parliament of the Irish people. I am prepared for certain criticism of these proposals. I am prepared to be told that it is a reactionary measure to send out these salaried magistrates to sit alone and administer, even the very limited jurisdiction that will be theirs. If there are those here who feel inclined to make criticism of that kind, I would ask them to weigh well all the circumstances of the time, and to weigh well the extent to which that civic sense, and that responsibility has been dissipated by the events of the last eight or nine months. It is true to say that we have tapped public opinion so far as we could, here and there, through the country, with regard to these proposals, and the consensus of opinion favours the course which we are taking. It is true to say that we consulted many of the Dáil justices themselves, and they asked to be relieved from an impossible position; they said that if in dealing with cases that came before them they did things which they knew and felt it was right to do, that they could not live on friendly and neighbourly terms in their areas. That is a pretty serious situation, but it is not a situation which will last. I do not want Deputies to think that these proposals, which we, to-day, lay before this Dáil are proposals foreshadowing the general trend of future administration.

Mr. E. BLYTHE:

I formally second the motion.

Mr. THOS. JOHNSON:

I do not intend to criticise or advert to any great extent upon the speech of the Minister for Home Affairs. I think, in the main, he has made out a good case for his motion, but there are a few questions which I think should be answered, and a few points that should, perhaps, be made on the general question. I think that the country, generally, will agree that there is need for the setting up of the courts, where there will be a Magistrate or a District Judge, who is capable of deciding on questions of law, and dealing with these matters of summary jurisdiction. But I feel that it would be unwise to forego what I think is really an advance, although, perhaps, some may call it a throw-back—sometimes it is an advantage to go back. I think the establishment of local courts, call them arbitration courts if you will, should be maintained, and that the system throughout the country of arbitration courts, even if they are not given power of enforcement, is desirable to be maintained and developed. There have been, I have no doubt, a good many follies committed by local courts and a good many abuses, but, assuming a settlement of the general question of the country, I would urge upon the Ministry, and the Dáil generally, that it is very well worth while, for the purpose of inspiring confidence, to re-establish, in some form or other, the local arbitration courts for the decision of, shall I say, the smaller matters of dispute. Another question that I would like to have some information upon, is as to the intentions of the Ministry in regard to the Decrees that have been passed by the Dáil, and which are the law in force to-day, and whether it is intended that when the Minister speaks of the existing law he means the existing law minus these Decrees or including these Decrees, and if the Decree amending the previously existing law is the law which now prevails, in his view and in the views of the Ministry, and that the law that will be administered by these magistrates is the law as amended by the Dáil Decrees; and whether it is sound law to say that judgments delivered by these Courts in civil affairs must be enforced, or whether we are asked to go back to the position that the work of these Courts is to be cancelled entirely. I think that if that is intended it is very retrograde, and will be disastrous. Whatever mistakes have been made in the kind of machine that was set up I think we should recognise that they were made in good faith. If there were mistakes made in the setting up of that particular kind of machine we must take the responsibility for the mistakes, but we must enforce the law that was administered through that machinery. I hope we are to assume that the Judicial Committee which is to be appointed will be appointed after reference to the Dáil, and that any changes in the system of administration will be made by the Acts of the Dáil, and not by the Acts of the Ministry. I am glad to know that the Ministry is willing to face the risk, and I am glad to know that the men are willing to face the risk—undoubtedly a real risk, and they are brave men to face it— of going into the country as an unarmed Police Force. I sincerely hope that the country will recognise the position that these men are going to the country to fulfil their duties as a Police Force and not as a military or semi-military force, and that all that has been hoped for and claimed in the past about the willingness of the Irish people to recognise home-made institutions will be exemplified in this particular at least. I trust that nobody will have any regrets to utter that the Government and the Ministry decided upon this very valuable experiment, as it is an experiment, in this country. I would like to hear, further, that it is in the mind of the Ministry that at an early date they will agree to associate in the control or the direction of this unarmed Police Force the local authorities. The more that that is done the surer, I think, we will come to the point when the law, and the administration of the law will receive the confidence of the people. I do not want to go into any details about the Civic Guard; others will do that. But perhaps we should have some enlightenment as to the educational qualifications that are required, whether any change has taken place in that respect, and whether it is the intention of the Ministry to make room— I say rather than make room, to give effect to the assurances that were publicly made in regard to those members of the R.I.C. who resigned at the call of the people. It is, I think, only reasonable, and I think it will appeal to everyone's sense of justice, that these men ought, at least, to be treated as favourably as the men who remained on in the R.I.C., and on disbandment, or when they were about to be disbanded, got favourable, or perhaps preferential, consideration in the formation of this new force. That is all I have to say. I hope the discussion will proceed on the lines invited by the Minister, and that we shall not attempt to rake up those things which he hopes and assures us have been relegated to the dead past.

Mr. GAVAN DUFFY:

The Dáil will be aware that I left the Government on a question connected with these Courts. I have no desire to reopen that question here now, because I have stated my grounds fully in the public Press, and my action has been endorsed by those whose opinion I value most. If I understood the Minister correctly, the same objections do not apply to the Courts now proposed as those which applied, or shall I say which seemed to me to apply, to the action previously taken, and I rise mainly for the purpose of getting a little elucidation. The first part of the Resolution, in favour of taking immediate steps for the consolidation and establishment of civil administration, is one which I suppose will commend itself to everybody. The second part seems to me to be a little incomplete. The second part speaks of rescinding the decree establishing local Courts. I suppose I am right in assuming that there will be laid before this Dáil in detail the scheme under which the new temporary Judges are going out, because you do not get sanction for that scheme by merely rescinding the Parish and District Courts.

Mr. O'HIGGINS:

They will have to go out under the existing Act.

Mr. GAVAN DUFFY:

Of the Dáil.

Mr. KEVIN O'HIGGINS:

The Constabulary Act.

Mr. GAVAN DUFFY:

I think it would be desirable that the Dáil should have something more than this resolution in writing to see exactly what it is doing here. If we are putting in the place of the District Courts more efficient machinery, home-made, as Deputy Johnson said, there is a good deal to be said for it, because everybody realises that the District Courts did their work when the people appointed were properly qualified, but they were unsuitable where the people appointed were not properly qualified. Undoubtedly, some reform is needed at the present time. I realise we cannot have such a unification of the two systems of courts, as we should like to see, until the Judicial Committee has reported upon what can be done. Apart from that difficulty, we are not quite clear as to the scheme under which the judges are going out. I want to put one or two specific questions which, I have no doubt, the Minister can answer quite readily. First you had a number of people committed for trial by the Dáil Courts a month, two months or three months ago. By whom are these people to be tried? What legislation will be introduced to justify their trial? By what court, not contemplated at the time they were committed for trial, are they to be tried, and generally what procedure is to be adopted? My impression is that there are some cases of considerable hardship, where men were kept in prison after committal by the Dáil Courts simply because there were no courts to try them. If they are to be released, by whom are they to be released, and if they are to be detained, by whom are they to be tried, and how is the process to be legalised? As to the new judges going out, of whom one must suspend judgment until one has more information, what right of appeal will there be from their decisions; under what statute, or is it proposed to pass a new law in that direction; and to what extent will their jurisdiction be alternative jurisdiction to that of the County Court Judges? I did not hear all the Minister said, and I am not sure of the extent of the jurisdiction to be conferred upon these judges. One would like a little more light, because the courts functioning now under the Dáil have a concurrent jurisdiction with that of the County Courts. We want to know how far that will be modified, and what will be the exact relation between the jurisdiction and powers of the two sets of courts.

CATHAL O'SHANNON:

I was very glad to hear the Minister say that the intention both of the Ministry and of the administration of the Civic Guard was to look to the future rather than to the past. I may say I was rather glad to hear some of the things he said, and I do not want to rake up at all the unfortunate history of the Civic Guard. But there are one or two things in connection with it that I want information upon, and I think that the Dáil ought to have information on, and I think the country will be interested in. I am in agreement with the Minister that the Police Force should not be an armed force. Whether this is the particular moment that they should be sent out altogether without arms or not I am not quite so sure, but I am with him in so far as the Police Force should be a genuine Peace Force, and not anything like the old military or semi-military force which the old R.I.C. was. So if I express a doubt as to the exact wisdom of doing it in the way I would like it done it is only because I do not want to see this experiment failing, and failing altogether in such a way that we would be saddled after a time with a Police Force that would be permanently armed or semi-armed. I do not want that plea for the arming of the Civic Guard at all. I think the less arming there is about them the better, and I should also say I do believe that under the new regime in the Civic Guard there have been big improvements—that discipline is being maintained and an effort is being made with a good deal of success to put that Guard on something like the footing it ought to be on. But to my mind there are several things we require —fundamental things—in such a Force as this, and one is that, like the Judiciary and other services, it should not be in any sense of the word a political force or organisation. That is to say, it should not be, in the sense in which the R.I.C. was, a political organisation, and appointments to it should not be made on political grounds. From what I hear of his administration of the Civic Guard since he took it over, I have a good deal of respect for the present Chief Commissioner, but I think it is wrong—wrong in principle and wrong in essence—that the head of such a force should be in any sense of the word at all a politician. I object to a member of the Dáil having or holding, even at this present moment, such an office. I do not think, with the best will in the world, that one who belongs to a definite and distinct political party, and as such is a public representative of the people and takes his place in this Dáil, should at the same time have control and sole direction of the Civic Guard. Now, it may be that he is only temporarily employed. I do not know, but I hope it will be only temporarily, or else that he will resign his seat in the Dáil. Let me be clearly understood. I am not making in any sense a personal attack on the gentleman who happens to occupy the position. I am speaking about the fundamental necessity, to my view, in the Civic Guard. I am sure a good many things that have happened have been got over, but there is still need for a good deal of care and a good deal of caution. I am especially against arming the Guard with rifles. Whatever may be said for temporarily arming them with revolvers at the moment, I am dead against arming them with rifles. If my information on the following matter is altogether incorrect, I hope the Minister will be able to reassure me. I have been told that the Civic Guard, up to the present, at all events, has not got that training in police duty which it requires. It has not gone through the process of police training in so far as it concerns a policeman—the administration of the law, and so forth. There may be a police code for the Civic Guard. If there is, we ought to know there is, and we also ought to know its nature. It is an elementary fact that it is a much more difficult job to make a policeman than it is to make a soldier. The functions of the two are quite definite and distinct. It requires a peculiar kind of training to make a policeman. I should like to know if that training is being given to the Civic Guard. My information is that, on the whole, it was not, and that they were not getting the training necessary. It may be that they are now, but my information is that they are not. There is another matter upon which I would like some information. The other day the Minister, in reply to a question, gave us certain figures dealing with the salaries of officials of the Guard and the salaries of the members of the Guard. I should like to know whether the weekly wage paid to the Guard is the bare wage, with nothing found, or whether there are what we might call perquisites. I know that in the case of the officers there are lodging and other allowances, but whether or not these apply to the ordinary men in the Guard I do not know, and I should like to know. There is another thing that would require some explanation. Amongst the officers are some who, if my information is correct, did not come out of the R.I.C. until three months after they had joined the Civic Guard. I am not at all sure that a good deal of the trouble in the Guard was brought about in the manner in which the Minister suggested. I think there was some other trouble, and there may be more trouble, unless I am again misinformed, on account of the position of the disbanded, as distinct from resigned, members of the R.I.C. It is commonly reported that a good many of those who resigned from the R.I.C. joined the Civic Guard as raw recruits. That may have been necessary. I think in a good many cases it would be necessary if the Civic Guard were to be the body I should like it to be, and that is a body that would scrap all the traditions, practically, of the R.I.C., and start on a new basis. A very difficult job no doubt, especially in present circumstances. It is alleged that of the men who resigned from the R.I.C. between 1919 and 1921 and joined as raw recruits, together with those of other police forces who were disbanded after the signing of the Treaty, a good many, if not most, got rather higher and better jobs than other members of the force, and were considered rather eligible for the officer class in the Civic Guard. I want to know whether that is true or not. Now, as to the arming of the Guard. I think recent instances demonstrate that the handling of arms by these men will want some looking after. There was an unfortunate incident the other day—that of Eastwood. I think that kind of thing is inevitable to a certain extent. In the Army there has been much of that. I hope we are not going to have a repetition of it in the Civic Guard. There was another incident reported, and I hope the new Commissioner, with whatever new disciplinary measures he will introduce, will see to it that there will be no recurrence of such an incident, or that there will be no reason or excuse for it. I am told that three or four weeks ago a certain officer of the Guard in; I think, the Castle, was so fond of getting salutes from his men that he made himself rather a nuisance, and so much of a nuisance that one of the men fired at him.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS:

A very drastic method of dealing with him.

CATHAL O'SHANNON:

That is the kind of thing that I would have expected from the Guard as it was originally constituted, but I hope that the new regime is doing away with that kind of thing, and doing away not only with the spirit that provokes men to turn like that on their officers, but also the spirit that makes an officer act in such fashion as to provoke the men. I am more concerned with getting out of the officer that rather cocky spirit, because it is one of the things that was prevalent in the R.I.C. and in many military or semi-military organisations. It is really the root of a good deal more trouble than many of us imagine. I should like to plead along with Deputy Johnson that some consideration should be, if it has not already been, given to the men of the R.I.C. who resigned. Now, no doubt some of them resigned through sheer cowardice; others of them resigned because they thought it was an easy way of getting out of an awkward job. I think a great many of them resigned because they were called upon to resign by the National organisation, with the backing of the National Government at the time, and many of them had done great service. I am not saying any man should be rewarded for any service that he has done to the country in the National fight. I do not think that should be the understanding on which a man would do a service. But I remember that at the time these resignations were asked for there were assurances that the men who resigned would not be neglected by the people. That was, I think, in 1919. I have a letter which I received to-day from one of these men. I know there are many cases where these men were not able to get any employment afterwards, and a good many of them have been living a more or less hand-to-mouth existence since. Some of them may have got jobs. A good many of them are married men with families to support. I would like there would be some assurance given to those men that the obligation of honour that the whole nation owes to them because of this public promise is as strict as any other obligation of honour, and that they will be looked after. This is hardly the time for experimenting, but I would like to express an opinion against a centralised Police Force. I think the time has come, or ought to come, when the Police Force should be a local force rather than a centralised force. There may be arguments in favour more or less of the centralised Police Force at the moment, but I think the Police Force should be a local force, and I think the President, who is Minister of Finance, will find with the local force that spirit of civic and local responsibility for which he asked the other day. I do not mean to say there should not be some kind of central direction. There should be a common training afforded to all recruits right through the Force, but that the immediate direction and administration of the Police Force should rather be local. The people should really be in a position to say for themselves: "This Force is not merely the Force of the Government sitting in Dublin as the Army is, but it is our local people's Force that we have immediate control over, and that we can exercise that immediate control over," that it is really not anything like the old R.I.C., but that it is for the protection of the people of the district or the county, or whatever might be the local administrative unit, that as a matter of fact the policeman in Ireland might be what he is in other countries, the guardian, the guide and the friend of everyone in his locality rather than the man with the baton, whose job is to hit people on the head when they do wrong, that he should be the peace officer, friend, and guardian, rather than the schoolmaster or the warder.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS:

There are just two or three questions I would like to put to the Minister for Home Affairs with regard to this important resolution which has come before us. It is very far from my desire that this debate should decline from the very high and somewhat slumbrous level to which it has attained. I think one assumes that the measure put before us is one that deals purely with local circumstances, and is merely an ad interim measure. It means that no final magistracy will be created in this country until this Dáil has put before it in the Constitution a proper Judiciary Act, and presumably a proper Constabulary Act, whatever the titles of these Acts may be at the time. But between this time and then these measures are put before us merely to tide over this interim period, because the old system was very largely broken up by Courts set up under the authority of this Dáil, and these Courts themselves have also been set aside, and we are asked to give them the final coup de grace in this resolution. There is no question, sir, but that during a certain period of time those local Republican Courts served a very useful purpose and maintained a very high level of judicial administration. They aroused public confidence. But I think that subsequent experience proved that Courts organised as these Courts were could only be maintained and could only prove ultimately efficient when they were supported by a very considerable state of national exaltation. Because directly there came any kind of division into the country, as, for example, immediately after the division created last December, those of us who had any experience of those Courts know very well that judgments became, not indeed indifferent and impartial judgments, but extremely partial judgments. Whereas before they had filled the country with a certain amount of confidence, it became necessary on their own merits then that they should cease to exist. I am glad that this comes before us in this form, in order that the Legislature itself may set aside a legislative act, and that a legislative act should not be set aside merely by an Executive decree. So that we deal then with that period that intervenes between the present moment and the final system, whatever that may be, as it will be finally decided. Pending that period I would like to urge one or two considerations upon the Minister for Home Affairs and upon the Ministry. A great deal of unrest is now being created by a matter to which Deputy Johnson has referred, and that is the enforcement of the decrees already passed by the old Republican Courts. There are a large number of such decrees which, whether they are good or bad, are nevertheless judicial decrees, and there seems to be some great difficulty in getting those decrees enforced. Some of those, I think, are hard cases, and I can give plenty of details to the Minister, but no doubt he has enough cases brought under his attention to make him aware of their existence. I have heard of cases where decrees have been brought to the attention of the Police Officials under the Provisional Government at the present time, and the answer has been made that they did not know they could give enforcement to such decrees. If that be the case, litigants have gone to some considerable trouble and expense in getting a decree, actually greater expense than if they had gone to the other enemy Courts that existed at the same time. The decrees have been furnished —decrees that should be executed in order that the continuity would be maintained. In the same connection I would like to enforce also the plea that to some measure even now the local authorities might have some responsibility placed upon them in respect of these Civic Guards, who are going out, as Deputy Johnson has said, with great courage to undertake their duties. A number of other Deputies in many different debates in this Dáil referred to the lack of responsibility for the government of this country that has been too marked during the past few months. I believe that the act of courage of these men going out unarmed to undertake police duties in different parts of the country will arouse a certain sense of moral responsibility, and I believe that as soon as that moral responsibility would be aroused it would be strengthened and confirmed. If local authorities had it brought home to them that for the maintenance of these unarmed men, and for the procurance of peace, they were asked to accept a certain measure of responsibility—I know it would be extremely difficult to do—it would call forth a certain measure of administrative courage. I do not think it would call forth any greater administrative courage than the sending out of these unarmed men. If the two things could be conceivably linked together, I believe then we would get what everybody desires to see, and that is the country accepting responsibility for the maintenance of order in this country which, perhaps, in some parts the people have been somewhat reluctant to assume. After all, we know very well there is no greater sense; there is nothing that will more greatly inspire courage, and courage is the ultimate quality to which I refer—that there will be nothing to call forth greater courage than the frank imposition of responsibilities, and I do think, if it could be done, and if administratively possible, that it should be done. And I would like that the Minister for Home Affairs would give them assurance on that matter as to what the views of himself and his advisers are on that matter. One final matter—with regard to the Commissions held hitherto. A number of Commissions have been held by those who have acted in the courts set up by the earlier Dáil. I do not know, but I should conceive that the people who held those Commissions should be very glad to be rid of them. They have meant a very great deal of time, but there are some who held these Commissions, who are, and who would be anxious, having the quality of civic spirit, energy and courage, would, I say, be anxious to continue holding those Commissions. And that is equally true with regard to some of those who held Commissions of the same kind before these Dáil Courts were set up. Here I touch upon a subject that is obviously one of considerable difficulty. I do know that we have started in upon a new era, and those old people who are known as these English justices of the past—some of them were persons of accepted standing in their country and district; men who did stand on good relations with their neighbours; men whose judgment was known to be impartial; men who sought, at any rate, to deliver justice to the best of their ability. I do not know, but I presume that all these authorities would be swept aside by the new Judges that will be sent down. But I have been in touch with both of these sorts of men, and I would like to bring their cases before the Ministry in order that there should be, as far as possible, as great a continuity with the past as can be maintained.

Mr. FRANK McGUINNESS:

With regard to the power asked for in this Order, I am heartily in accord with the spirit that underlies it, and I congratulate the Minister for Home Affairs upon his energy in preparing and equipping and regulating things in such a way that he could send these men on to the different counties where they can reasonably undertake the work of police. It is very necessary, when people have been looking forward to these men going down to help them to get on with the civil side of affairs, and I am glad the time has come when we are commencing to work, and it has been in arrears a long time undoubtedly. And I think the Home Minister is entitled to the highest commendation of the Dáil for his energy in this matter. With regard to setting up, on behalf of the people of Longford and Westmeath, counties which I have the honour of representing in this Dáil, the Courts there will get a hearty welcome and the loyal support of the people in these two counties. But while that is so, I take exception, and very decided exception, to the class of person he has mapped out in this scheme, or outlined in his address in the Dáil a few moments ago, as the class from which he is going to draw his magistrates. It seems now that there is a little money in the Courts. There was none heretofore. But now that there is going to be a decent salary for the position which is equal to that of what used to be a Resident Magistrate, the lawyer is on the job. It does not seem any qualification for appointment to these positions at all that a man risked his life and fought for the freedom of this country, or who sat on the Benches and strove in great difficulties to carry on the civil side of affairs while the Army was at work on the other side. It does not seem or appeal to the Minister for Home Affairs to consider the claims of those men. Not at all. That is no qualification. The work that a man did for the nation seems not to be a qualification now in the appointment of District Magistrates. He must come from the lawyers' side, because it is a paid job. I protest against that, and I do say that these positions should be reserved for men who did give good services for the last four or five years to the nation; and these positions should not be conserved, and a ring should not be drawn round them. Nor should they be made preserves for this useless class of drones— the men who are ready to pop in after the danger is gone and the salary is there. But when the danger was there these men were not to be met with on the Bench. No, they were in their offices or giving information to the enemy about Frank McGuinness or others, who were striving to "carry on." I protest against reserving those positions for lawyers. I also protest, on behalf of my constituency, in sending down some of the old Judges to the Quarter Sessions Court. I think that will be a failure, and I am sorry for the Minister for Home Affairs that he did not take a little advice from the representatives of these counties. If he sends some of the old Judges, some of the old Castle hacks, it will be a failure. He may talk about efficiency, I am out for efficiency. I do say that no one should be appointed to these positions without a decent standard of common sense—at least no Magistrate—and that no one should be appointed a County Court Judge or a Judge corresponding to it without being a trained lawyer of some standing. I am with the Minister for Home Affairs in that. But I ask him why does he retain those old Judges? Is it not as natural for us to retain the old R.I.C. men? Why were they shoved out? Why had they to go? Because the people of Ireland were sick of them. They pushed them out. The people of Ireland are sick also of those old County Court Judges, those men who never gave a legal decision in their lives on its merits, and simply acted according to the orders they got from Dublin Castle. Take, for example, their conduct in the Courts during the past few years in dealing with malicious injury cases. Did they decide these on their merits? Rather not. They decided them on the instructions of Sir Hamar Greenwood and Dublin Castle. Is it not known to every member of this Dáil that these decisions were outrages? Is it not known that they were inequitable, unjust, and unfair to the people, to the ratepayers, and the taxpayers? But, simply to carry out the orders of their masters, they went away from the legal points, and they simply gave a verdict in accordance with the instructions from Hamar Greenwood and his satellites in order to show the people that they were going to be decimated; that they were going to be beggared for standing up, or daring to stand up, against the foreign army in this country. Now, if such a man comes down to the county to which I belong I am afraid that he will not get that respect which I would like a Judge in that capacity to get from the people. And I say that honestly too. And I would ask the Minister to reconsider that point, and to appoint at least new blood, men with some National record as well as legal training. Deputy Gavan Duffy said the Parish and District Judges were unsuited to their positions. There was nobody else to do the work, for this reason, that no one else had the courage.

Mr. GAVAN DUFFY:

On a point of explanation, I said those who were not qualified were unsuited. I said that those qualified did their work very well.

Mr. McGUINNESS:

The qualification was the National standard at the time, and you required men of courage, and men who loved their country down deep in their hearts, to sit in these Courts at the time, and I say there are plenty of men amongst these who could be very well reappointed to those positions; several of them of high moral courage, good education, and sound National principles; men who would not give a wrong decision if they knew it. But those other hacks come down with their legal training, and do exactly what their paymasters tell them to do, and particularly so within the last two or three years. I protest against this, and, while not using any threat, I am afraid it will hardly succeed in some counties to which they may be sent. I do not wish to go very much further into the matter; but I cannot see what the young men of Ireland were fighting for; I cannot see what they died for; I can not see what I risked my life for for years in the National struggle, and, having fought and won up to a certain point, when we go down to Longford or another county, and see the old County Court Judge sitting there, the old Crown Solicitor taking his place, the old Clerk of the Crown and Peace in his robes, the same old County Sheriff, the same old County Sub-Sheriff, the same old County Coroner; what were they fighting for?

Mr. D.J. GOREY:

Jobs.

Mr. McGUINNESS:

We were fighting for the freedom of the country in the first place, and to see that the men who fought for it got what they fought for Deputy Gorey says "Jobs."

Mr. GOREY:

I could not keep it in.

Mr. McGUINNESS:

We did not fight, anyhow, that the lawyers should retain their jobs and continue in them, while the poor R.I.C. men were thrown out on the roadside without a house to go into, with no cabin or roof over their heads. Why should these men be retained? Why should they be resurrected? They have been withdrawn for some time, and why should we now send them down the country? Why should we, while this Parliament is quite young, as the very first act, take these men, who had been hated, and are hated at the present time, to administer justice, moryah? There is no justice in these men; never has been, and cannot be now. As General Sean McKeon said yesterday, they saw through British glasses in everything they did and have done, and will continue to do so.

Mr. M.J. HENNESSY:

I rise to support the motion of the Minister for Home Affairs: "That, in the opinion of this Dáil, the Government should, whenever the military situation so permits, take immediate steps for the consolidation and re-establishment of civil administration." I think not only in this Dáil, but the Nation, and every right-thinking citizen right through the country, is of opinion that the time has arrived, and that, in fact, we have overstepped the time limit long ago. At all events, I must now express, on my own behalf and on behalf of my constituents, satisfaction that the Minister for Home Affairs is going to tackle this question. I have had some little experience in the working of these Republican Courts for the past twelve months, and I am sorry to say that they did not command the respect from the people that they should, for the very simple reason that we could not get the decrees of these Courts executed. We established these courts, and we told the people we would execute their judicial decrees and accepted their money. In hundreds of cases these decrees still remain unexecuted, and it will be one of the first duties to see that they are executed. I expect there will be some sifting process, and that the decrees will not be taken as they are found. It may be necessary to sift them, as I understand many irregularities have occurred in these Republican Courts. All was not plain sailing. We have no civil administration at the moment. The administration we had up to recently has fallen to pieces, and with it came irregularism, and I believe if the courts were allowed to function, and if the people who established these courts—the Republican H.Q.—if they took the serious interest in the functioning of these courts which they should have taken, I believe you would not now have that amount of irregularism that we find in the country. The very moment these institutions fell to pieces, irregularism came along by leaps and bounds. There is a good deal in what Deputy McGuinness has said about sending out Castle hacks, but the Minister for Home Affairs has told us that it is only a temporary measure, and I am sure the Minister for Home Affairs and his colleagues in the Ministry are just as anxious as we would be to send down men of good National standing to do this work. He has told us, and we must accept the statement, that he cannot find suitable men with the requisite training, to undertake the duties at the moment. Consequently, when the people in the country realise this, they will accept the statement in the spirit that we accept it. I think they will be very glad of it as a temporary expedient, to get over the difficulties. Any court is better than no court. How many people are there throughout the country at the moment who cannot get their ordinary bills paid? How many robbers are going through the country to-day? There is no Court before which they might be arraigned. Surely, it is necessary to set up some Court, even a Castle hack, provided that he would be an impartial hack, and that his decrees would be executed, and that the people would get some satisfaction for their money. I have no love for these Castle hacks, never had, and never will, but I will accept them, at all events, as a temporary measure, and the moment we get our Government firmly established I am sure the Minister for Home Affairs and the Ministry will take into consideration the claims of men of good National standing, the men who worked with us in the past. Let us hope that time will soon arrive. I am also very glad to hear the Minister state he is sending out the Civic Guard. I hope he will not forget my constituency if he has a few men to spare. We have not, thank goodness, very many Irregulars down there. We never had a large number of them, as we never entertained them. If we had the guns in time we would not have asked for the National Army. We have no sympathy with the Irregulars or their methods. The Minister for Home Affairs can hold his tribunals in the open, and I trust that to Youghal, Midleton and Cobh he will be able to send his Civic Guard. They will be welcomed there. They need not have any great training. All they want is ordinary, common courtesy. These are the principal matters I have to deal with. I have to express my satisfaction that the Minister for Home Affairs is about to establish some sort of institutions in the country where the grievances of the people of the country will find some redress.

Mr. GERALD FITZGIBBON:

I had no intention of intervening in this debate, but I do not like to remain silent after the speech of Deputy McGuinness. I know almost all the County Court Judges in Ireland. Some are personal friends, and some are acquaintances and some I do not know at all. They are of all political beliefs, but I do not believe there is any single one among the lot who has been or is capable of being false to his oath or duty as an administrator of law, or that he would act at the orders of any paymaster in Dublin Castle or elsewhere. I do not believe there are in this Assembly many people who believe that charge to be true. I do not deny that the effects of the Malicious Injuries Act and the decrees given under it may be most distasteful to all those who had to pay these decrees, amongst them myself in my capacity as a ratepayer, but these decrees were not given by the orders of anybody in Dublin Castle, but according to statutory regulations dealing with malicious injuries compensation, which regulations were altered by the British Parliament on two or three occasions within the last couple of years. The decrees were given in accordance with the altered statutory conditions by the County Court Judges. So much for that. With regard to the conduct of the Minister for Home Affairs in selecting members of the legal profession to perform legal duties, that is, of course, a business for the new Irish era. To my old-fashioned mind, it seems not unreasonable that a lawyer should be selected to administer the law. I believe on many occasions one of the criticisms directed against the Resident Magistrates was that they were retired Army officers and ex-District Inspectors of the R.I.C., and were in other respects without proper legal training. If I might throw out one suggestion to the Minister for Home Affairs, he will probably consider it. In appointing twenty-five or twenty-six gentlemen qualified by legal experience to take the place of the Resident Magistrates who have disappeared, I rather imagine that the trend of affairs in the future will go more towards an increase in the jurisdiction of County Courts and in bringing the administration of law to the people, and that they will be saved the expense of having comparatively trivial cases tried in Dublin. If that reform should come in the course of the next couple of years, it would be rather unfortunate if it came when a number of these men had been pensioned and the country was burdened with the pensions of these men who had been put out of action by the reform. I have no doubt that the Ministry are considering, in making these appointments, whether the men who, through no fault of their own, may be removed, should not be considered capable of being promoted to higher duties, in the event of the Government agreeing to set up largely increased County Court jurisdiction. Now, if they had to scrap twenty-five or twenty-six people at the end of two or three years, I do not think the Minister will command the services of qualified men who would perform the responsible duties, because no men of reasonable standing at their profession —in either branch of that profession— would be willing to throw up their present positions and go to a job out of which they might be turned in two or three years. Therefore, I trust the Minister has his eye on the possibility of making further use of the men, under whatever newly reformed system of justice he may introduce into this country; otherwise he might scarcely find men better qualified than the men whom he would replace. I do trust this Dáil does not share the belief of Deputy McGuinness as to the performances of the unfortunate gentlemen he has described to us as Castle hacks.

Mr. F. McGUINNESS:

I can prove the statement I have made.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:

Order. You cannot speak twice.

Mr. R. CORISH:

This, to my mind, is a very important resolution, and the spirit of the Dáil is entirely behind it. If carried out, it will bring back to this country a condition of normality quicker than any military activity that has taken place, or will take place. The tone of the discussion has been very proper, with the exception of Deputy McGuinness. I think everybody realises what we are faced with in this country. The Minister for Home Affairs has laid it down that so far as county court jurisdiction is concerned, it is only a temporary measure. The statement is a very fair one, and I take it, has satisfied the Dáil. We are entirely behind the Government, once again, in their efforts to set up a proper system of civil administration. What is wanted at the present time is a feeling of security for the people of the country. It is because there is a lack of that at the moment, that there are so many Irregulars all over the country. I happen to know something about civil administration. I accept to the full the statement of the Minister for Home Affairs. I am very glad to hear him say that the Civic Guard are to be sent out as an unarmed body, but I would impress upon him the importance of the request made by the Deputies from these Benches—Deputies O'Shannon and Johnson—that there should be some control given over the Civic Guard by the Mayors and Chairmen of District and Urban Councils in the different parts of Ireland, because if you want to make the people feel that these Civic Guards are their own peace officers this is the only way you should bring it about. This is a good time now for this step because the people have got sick of the chaos that exists at the present moment. If you want to get proper civil administration and save the country from chaos, to my mind you are only going to do it by giving control to the various Councils operating in Ireland. Deputy O'Shannon raised the question of the resigned R.I.C. He said consideration should be given to these men. A number of these men, indeed a lot of them, did splendid work before they came out of the R.I.C., and the late Commander-in-Chief, before his death, gave an assurance to these men before they left the old R.I.C., that it should be honoured by the Government. There is also talk of men who acted as Registrars of the old Republican Courts; they courted danger and imprisonment from day to day, and they should receive recognition from the Government. The tone of the discussion was perfectly splendid. In a matter of this kind every deputy in this Dáil seems to be determined in his efforts to bring about a state of normality. I ask the Minister of Home Affairs that the question of the pensions of the old R.I.C. will receive every attention. As to the functioning of the Civic Guard I might mention that under the old British system Mayors and Chairmen of Urban Councils were allowed to take part in civil administration and preside over courts which are formed, Courts of Conscience—and I think these Mayors and Chairmen should at least have some control over the Civic Guard sent to operate in their particular areas.

Professor MAGENNIS:

I see that the Minister for Home Affairs is about to rise to close the debate. Would it be too much to ask him in his reply when the Ministry set up this Commission to deal with the judges and the courts will the personnel of the Commission be put before the Dáil, and will the nominations be subject to discussion or be solely decided by an executive act. I would like also to know if the terms of the reference to the Commission will be submitted to this Dáil—if so, I should like to suggest that part of the reference be the consolidation of the two branches of the legal profession. In every small country that is efficient in its administration of government, the two branches are combined. It means the cheapening of the law for the poor, which is most important, and had in every way satisfactory results.

Mr. D.J. GOREY:

I would not have got up at all were it not for some of the references here with regard to the old judges. Deputy Fitzgibbon has assured us that no members of the legal profession will be guilty of doing anything outside ideas of fair play and outside the law. Well, we had up and down the country claims for compensation for malicious injury, for deaths of Black and Tans and others, and anybody who claimed to be dependants of them got a verdict in many cases for sums much greater than those they claimed. Now, will Deputy Fitzgibbon deny that? It may be in his view fair play and law, but to my mind it was not law but vindictive damages which were given in these verdicts. I was sorry at the note Mr. McGuinness struck when he said that we fought the war in this country for something other than National independence. I know he he did not mean that we fought for jobs, and so on. I know he did not mean that, but I hope he will be as honest as Sean McKeon was, when he said yesterday evening we will not descend to be mere politicians and not be bolstering up corruption. We know that some of these County Court Judges were not honest but were corrupt. In my own district we had nothing to complain of, but in other districts there were malignant and corrupt judges who gave decisions which could not come within the four walls of any law. I am glad that the Civic Guard has been sent out. I know they will be a success. I know some of them, and I hope the country will rise to the occasion, and that every man in the country will become a policeman. In my own county they formed Parish Guards, with the object of acting and co-operating with the Civic Guard when they come down. I hope every man in this country will rise to a proper sense of citizenship, and that they will make the country worth living in, will realise their responsibility, and put an end to the looter, the robber, and the man who is carrying a gun to-day, not because he believes it would tend to nationality, or that it would tend towards a Republic, but because it is the best paying item on the agenda. We know, of course, that there are good men carrying guns who are idealists, but the majority of them are not anything of the sort. But they are out because it is the best paying proposition at the moment. Now, if Deputy Corish is right, and the people are sick of chaos, well, I must say they have been a long time sick of chaos, and it is about time they were convalescent, and let them come out like men and do their duty as citizens in their various districts.

PADRAIG O'MAILLE:

Cuidighim leis an rún a tharraig an t-Aire um Ghnóthaí Dúithche. Sé mo thuairim go mbeidh áthas mór ar na daoine nuair a thuigfe siad go bhfuil deá-ordú á bhunú ar fuaid na tíre agus go mór mór nuair a bheidh fhios aca gurb é an Riar Comónta é. Tá súil agam go stadaidh cuid dár ndrochcháirde den troid agus go dtabharfa siad a gcongnamh do lucht stiúruithe na tíre. Mar gheall ar an nGarda Síochána nílim sásta go mbeidís fé Riar Ceanntair no Riar Paroíste ach go mbeidís fé aon cheann amháin.

I beg to support the motion that has been proposed by the Minister for Home Affairs. I think that the people through the country will be delighted to see that the law is being established again throughout the country, and especially when they come to realise that it is not the old English law that is being established, but the people's own law. I think it is only right and fair to make a clear sweep of all the officials that were connected with the administering of the old English law, because there is a lot of confused thinking in the country at the present time, and it must be brought home straight and direct to the people that it is the Irish people's law that is being established, and that it is their duty to support it. I hope that some of our misguided friends, who at the present time are out in arms against the Irish Government, will lay down their arms and give general support to the law that is being established; and where that law has not advanced as far as their ideas would wish it, they could help us to strengthen the position. That is their duty; that is the patriotic course for them to follow. As regards the old Judges, as far as the ordinary Court were concerned they gave impartial and fair judgment, but in political cases they were simply partisans, and they did not give justice. I think it is the intention of the Minister for Home Affairs—at least I hope it is—that as soon as possible all those Judges who administered the old English law will be pensioned off, the good as well as the bad, because you cannot differentiate between them. As regards the control of the Civic Guard, I do not agree with some of the Deputies who have spoken here that they should be under some of the local bodies. I think, in order to maintain proper discipline, you must have a unified force, because if you send an undisciplined force into any county, instead of improving the law, they will be helping to create disturbance. As regards taking ex-R.I.C. men into the Civic Guard, I do not at all agree with that. I think you want to get away from the old traditions. If there are ex-R.I.C. men who did useful work for the country, there ought to be other employment found for them. I think it would not be at all a good principle to take them into the new force.

Mr. K. O'HIGGINS:

I would like to say that to-day, at any rate, I have had a much smoother crossing than I expected. That is a thing for which I am grateful, in view of the importance of the matters we were discussing here to-day. I am particularly grateful for the restraint and the sympathy that came from the benches opposite, because support from behind is, I suppose, expected even in the rockiest measures. It is gratifying and pleasing to find that members opposite know when they can depart, and when they should depart, from the rigidity of the political maxim that it is the business of an Opposition to oppose. Certain points were raised in the course of the debate that should not be passed over without reference. Deputy Johnson asked with regard to Decrees that have been passed by Dáil Eireann in the past. It seems to me that it will he necessary in the future Parliament to incorporate or to consider how much of these Decrees can be incorporated into the system of law in the country and to legalise them by an Act of the future Parliament. I have been, at any rate, so advised, and the matter is under consideration. Now, as regards the judgments given by Dáil Courts in the past, that raises a very difficult question, because unfortunately you have to face the fact that Dáil Courts in the past did not always adhere to the jurisdiction that was properly theirs, but in many cases went far beyond their jurisdiction, and you had Parish Courts sentencing men to longer terms of imprisonment and fining people amounts altogether in excess of the amounts that their jurisdiction was limited to. Also it is a regrettable truth that in some cases findings were given that conflicted rather radically with the evidence before the Court, and one cannot get up here and take the stand that absolutely all the judgments given by the Dáil Courts in the past should stand. Neither could one, with any appreciation of the enormous work ahead, get up and suggest that all the judgments given by the Dáil Courts in the past should be reviewed. I think possibly the best thing we could do would be to send around a Commission to wind up and straighten out any tangles there may be in particular counties, and, while I point out these things, as of course it is my duty to point them out, I want to say that, taking all circumstances into consideration, the men who worked those particular Courts worked them with remarkable success, and that the Courts did, in fact, achieve the objects for which they were brought into being.

Mr. JOHNSON:

Before passing, what am I to understand in regard to the Dáil Decrees? Are they no longer of any effect? Is it feasible in one of these Courts, until that Decree has been rescinded, to plead that Decree?

Mr. K. O'HIGGINS:

Have you any particular Decree in mind?

Mr. JOHNSON:

I have the Rent Restrictions Act.

Mr. K. O'HIGGINS:

Will you put down a question definitely raising that issue?

Mr. JOHNSON:

I will.

Mr. K. O'HIGGINS:

Questions were raised of the association of Local Authorities with the Civic Guard. That is certainly a point which we would undertake to consider very carefully. I have only to point out that countries that have not a centralised Police Force very much wish they had, and that a purely local Force has very definite disadvantages which a little reflection will probably indicate. But the association, to some extent, of the Local Authorities with the Police Force of the country, is a thing that certainly should be, and will be, very carefully considered. There were questions raised as to the educational qualifications of the Civic Guard. On that matter I am glad to say that practically every member of the Force has sat lately for an examination and that on the result of those examinations they were segregated into different classes. The men who got less than 50 per cent., the men who got more than 50 per cent., the men who got 75 per cent. and over—they have been classified that way. This system of examination will continue, and will be the test for promotions in the Force.

Mr. JOHNSON:

Is there any test for acceptance in the Force?

Mr. O'HIGGINS:

There will be always in the future. As to the condition of the Civic Guards' training, I think perhaps I could not do better than read an extract from a letter I have had from the Chief Commissioner. This is the extract:—

"In all cases the Guard is being sent out as an unarmed force, whose sole duty will be police work, viz.:—the protection of life and property, and the establishment and maintenance of order —not as the supporters or nominees of any particular section, but as the servants and protectors of the people of every creed, rank and class.

"It will be remembered that the Civic Guard was called into existence only six months ago, and that the facilities for training a Police Force have been, up to the present, extremely limited. Apart from this, various other causes— chief amongst which were the regrettable incidents at Kildare Training Depot—have contributed to hamper and interrupt the training of the recruits, but these are gradually being overcome, and it is hoped that progress at a greater rate will now be made.

"It is admitted that the men have not arrived at that stage of efficiency which will ultimately be reached, but animated with the motive of serving the people faithfully, it is hoped their shortcomings will be criticised with charity, that the many difficulties that have to be surmounted will be borne in mind and that the public, without exception, will extend to the new Force their moral and material support."

Mr. ALFRED BYRNE:

May I ask the question, is it conditional that the men must be unmarried to remain in the Civic Guard? Does the Minister for Home affairs approve of that?

Mr. K. O'HIGGINS:

That is rather a new point. I did not know of any such condition.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:

Deputies must address the Chair, and not one another.

Mr. D.J. GOREY:

This is not the Dublin Corporation.

Mr. BYRNE:

I would rather be in the Dublin Corporation than in the Farmers' Union. I have a form here that states that candidates joining the Civic Guard must be unmarried. I remember that in another force considerable trouble arose about men in similar employment getting married. Has the Minister been given to understand that members of the Civic Guard shall remain unmarried?

Mr. K. O'HIGGINS:

I rather regret that the Deputy did not take an opportunity of addressing the Dáil upon this whole matter, and upon the advantages and disadvantages of marriage for policemen. I do not propose to go into the matter now. If the Deputy puts down a question in the ordinary way, it will be considered.

CATHAL O'SHANNON:

On a point of information, I would like to ask the Minister to say whether his impression, from the extract he has just read, is that instruction in police duties will be extensive.

Mr. K. O'HIGGINS:

Certainly.

CATHAL O'SHANNON:

I understand there has been little instruction in actual police duties in connection with the Courts—prosecutions in cases, and things like that, which require a general knowledge of procedure. All of these things are as important a part of the duties of a police force as instruction in ordinary police duties.

Mr. K. O'HIGGINS:

That matter is being attended to, and two appointments will be made of legal people to instruct the police as to how to put forward evidence, and generally their whole duties and the limits of their powers, because policemen not so instructed may very easily let themselves in for charges of burglary and things like that. Reference was made to ex-members of the R.I.C. It is not unknown to Deputies that the trouble there has been in the Civic Guard was raised over that very point. I will not say it sprung from that particular point, but it was raised on that point by people sent in to make trouble. Now, a certain amount of inflammation occurred, and I do not think it is wise that we should risk further trouble upon that point, and alternative proposals to the admission of ex-R.I.C. men into the force are under consideration at the moment, and it is probable that we will bring some measure before the Dáil to make alternative provision for these people. I admit the claim made by Deputy Johnson and Deputy O'Shannon, that these men who resigned —some after very long service—and gave up their prospects of large pensions, have a certain claim on the Parliament that came into being as a result of the trouble of the last few years. But I think we must seek a solution along other lines than that of admission to the Force. And also, whatever terms are arrived at, and whatever proposals are put forward those ex-R.I.C. men at present in the Civic Guard will get the opportunity of availing themselves of these new proposals, should they wish to leave the force. Deputy Gavan Duffy raised certain questions. He wanted to know under what scheme the new justices are going out. They are going out under the same Act under which their predecessors were appointed, and only with the jurisdiction of their predecessors—that is, they will have merely the jurisdiction of ordinary justices. They will not have that Special Crimes Act jurisdiction which two R.M.'s sitting together had in the past, and which some of us remember. He asked what would happen to people committed for trial by the Dáil Courts. Now, certain people have been released by the Executive authority of the Home Affairs Department, who were committed for trial by Dáil Courts, because it was found some of them had been in for quite as long as any sentence that would be passed upon them in the ordinary way by a court. There were cases of undeniable hardship, where more than the excess of jurisdiction was exercised by the courts that sentenced them, and if we cannot devise a perfect way out of the welter, we can only take what seems to us humanly the best way, and go ahead in that spirit and work out all the tangle that is inevitable when you have one administration smashed down, and another raised up from its debris.

Mr. GAVAN DUFFY:

Will the Minister consider what is to be done about the others?

Mr. K. O'HIGGINS:

Certainly. These cases will be taken up, and they will be considered on their merits, and I will undertake that consideration of them will be pressed forward. Deputy O'Shannon referred to the head of the Civic Guard, and said it was objectionable that he should be a politician. I agree absolutely, and I think that the Deputy will know that he has, in fact, ceased to be a politician, and his early resignation from this Dáil may be accepted. He has not intervened here, and he has, indeed, kept away, and the only other member of the Civic Guard who was a member of this Dáil has also kept away, and not interfered in discussions. We have faced the position that a man cannot be a good policeman and a good politician, or a bad politician, at the same time. There was a question raised regarding the wages of an ordinary Guardsman; if the Deputy will just write to me raising that question I will get the answer straight from the Office. I do not know if an ordinary Guardsman gets any lodging allowance. In answer to a question the other day I stated what his wages were. Deputy O'Shannon expressed the hope that these men would not be men imbued with the idea of hitting people on the head with their batons whenever they do wrong. I share that hope. These men have not that idea, and they are not in that spirit being sent out. On the other hand, may I express the hope that there will be very few, after a while, deserving of being hit. Now we come to Deputy McGuinness. Deputy McGuinness struck a discordant note in an otherwise harmonious debate. He generally joined issue on the whole question of lawyers, and he objected to the new Magistrates being selected from the legal profession. He said there were no men with a decent National outlook in that profession; then he came on to deal with County Courts, and said the existing "Castle hacks" should be dismissed, but men of decent National outlook, from the profession, of course, should be appointed; so that the two things did not quite fit in. I do not know what Deputy McGuinness risked his life for during the last four years, but we can only do our best according to our lights, or as some might say our twilights, and set up the administration of justice in the country that we believe will work. We cannot, within the first few weeks—or even the first few months —of the establishment of this Government start simply smashing down old institutions with no scheme ready to replace them, and we have no intention of doing that even under pressure of such very strong and very ill-informed criticism as Deputy McGuinness treated us to to-day. I will certainly, in making appointments to these responsible positions, endeavour to avoid appointing anyone who might have given information as to the dark deeds of Deputy McGuinness during the last few years. Speaking of the County Court Judges, he says they never gave a legal decision in their lives. Of course, that is obviously untrue. If Deputy McGuinness will bring me a list of fifty illegal decisions given by County Court Judges I will be grateful to him. Then Deputy Professor Magennis, speaking about the new Judicial Commission, asked if the personnel and the reference would be discussed here. The reference will certainly be discussed here. It is questionable whether it is desirable to have the personnel discussed here, or to ask men to accept a position where they would be more or less a cockshot for public criticism. It is certainly desirable that the reference should be discussed. I think that fairly covers the ground of the debate. In this new departure, and in this new situation that is being created, with an unarmed police force going out through the country, determined simply to enforce the law and protect the rights of everyone and the property of everyone, it is gratifying that this debate was marked with such a spirit of appreciation of the gravity of the times, and it is gratifying, too, that these men will know that the feeling expressed here to-day is reflected throughout the country and that they will have the moral support of the people in practically every area in the country.

Motion put and agreed to.