I move the adjournment until next Tuesday, at 3 o'clock.
THE ADJOURNMENT. - SUPPLEMENTARY NOTICES FOR LAND ANNUITIES.
An CEANN COMHAIRLE
On the motion of the adjournment, Deputy wilson has given notice that he will raise the question of the withdrawal by the Land Commission of the Supplementary Notices for the payment of land annuities which has hitherto been the practice.
Under the old regime it was the custom that those annuitants who did not pay their rents or annuities on the date fixed on the Receivable Order would, in the course of a month or six weeks, receive a second notice from the Solicitor's Department of the Land Commission giving them six days' notice to pay. The Department of Agriculture has withdrawn this second notice, and no machinery exists at the moment by which the annuity can be paid, except through the post.
If the annuity has not been paid between the dates fixed on the Receivable Order the banks will refuse to accept it, and then the position is that unless it is paid the legal officers of the Government will proceed by writ or otherwise and place the people who are willing to pay, and who, under the old regime, would have had an opportunity of paying on this buff Order, this second Order, in the position of being forced to pay costs. I do not hold that it is a proper course for anybody to wait for this second notice, but it has been the custom in the past, and if it is the proper thing that annuities must be paid to date before you change the order that has been in existence, I think it would have been proper for the Minister of Agriculture, or whoever is in charge of this department, to have issued a notice saying that, "On and from this particular half-year we shall not issue a second Order, and we hereby give you notice, and you will note that the next time you do not pay within the dates specified on your Receivable Order you will be likely to incur legal costs." That is simply the position. If the second notice is abolished, and an annuitant goes to the bank when he is behind time with his payment, the bank will refuse to accept it. The result will be that the annuitant will either have to pay through a solicitor, incurring costs, or he will have to go to the post office and remit it to some place, which he has never done before. If you look at the Receivable Order you will see that it does not specify to whom it is to be paid. A bank will not accept it, and the question arises: Is be to wait until a solicitor sends him a letter, mulcting him in costs for 30s. or so? I trust the Minister will instruct the banks, for this time, at any rate, to accept the money and let people understand that in future they must pay within the specified dates on their Receivable Order. In that way we will get over the difficulty that has arisen.
In reference to this question I know that the issuing of notices from the Land Commission entails a huge staff. Probably that is the reason why these notices have been withdrawn. I know it is expensive, but if some form could be devised to replace the old buff Order at less expense, that would meet the situation, and would, I think, satisfy us. People who have no intention not to pay sometimes neglect to pay. The average man in the country is not a man of education: he is not a clerk, and he forgets, as most people forget things, that it must be paid on a certain date, and if not he is liable to costs.
If there could be some simple, inexpensive method by which notice could reach the average annuitant I think we would agree to it. The present arrangement entails a good deal of hardship and expense on people paying annuities, and that is undesirable especially in the case of people who have always paid and are willing to pay. Some farmers perhaps are not able to read or write, and they want some form to remind them when these annuities are due.
There is just one other point on this subject that I would wish some little information on. Two separate forms are being issued, one for what is known as a year's rent, less 25 per cent. on account of compounded rent.
On a point of order we are not referring to that, but to the ordinary annuities.
I know; I am going to deal with that, but I am concerned with this particular thing at the moment. This first form asks for the payment of a year's rent, less 25 per cent. Then comes the forms of the annuities which specifies it must be paid to the bank at a certain time. What I want to know is in the case of a tenant who is not getting a year's rent form does this date which is stamped on the annuity apply to his case, and unless he has got the previous form and paid his year's rent will he be held to the date on the annuity form?
On a further point of order I wish to raise this question now. It is confusing to mention this question of annuities. It is a question of payment in lieu of rent, and not of annuity at all, It is a mistake to call a payment in lieu of rent an annuity.
Deputy McGoldrick must be aware of the ruling made here on several occasions, that the only matter that can be raised on the adjournment is a matter of which definite notice has been given. The matter of which notice is given to-day is the question of the withdrawal by the Land Commission of the supplementary notices for the payment of land annuities which has hitherto been the practice. Deputy McGoldrick on his own showing is raising a different matter. He promised to come to the matter of which notice has been given, and I will allow him to deal with that now.
I understand that annuities and payment in lieu of rent represent the same thing in different terms. I am coming to the withdrawal of notices, but I wish to know first if this date that is stamped means that after that date no further notices will be issued, and that these people will be prosecuted, and the Sheriff sent to collect the annuity without further notice. I want to know whether that will be done in the case of people who have already paid their year's rent, less 25 per cent. This matter is quite clear. There are two things that the notice can apply to. The notice can apply to a year's rent, as well as interest in lieu of rent, and if the notice is to be withdrawn as regards both these payments, then I think a very serious problem has been reached. I do not think that the Minister can ordain that the notices can be withdrawn. The people are already puzzled and in a quandary, and if they overrun the date on the stamped form they will throw themselves into the arm of the law, and the Minister would send out to collect at the point of the sword, to get What could have been got if their attention had been drawn to it in a regular way, and if the facts were given in another legal form. I think the withdrawal of the notice is wrong in the existing conditions. In the past they knew the date on which this interest in lieu of rent should be paid, and they knew what it was for. Now they do not know whether it is compounded arrears, interest in lieu of rent, or annuity, and I think notice should be conveyed to those people and extreme measures should not be resorted to until they had full opportunity of complying with the terms that the Land Commission requires regarding the payment of these sums of interest in lieu of rent. They are facing a difficult problem, and they are doing their best in the circumstances. This applies particularly to small holders in congested areas, and it does not so much apply to the large farmer, because he has knowledge of these things. It is puzzling to honest farmers in congested areas. Every man with public responsibility finds himself more or less cornered in every place he goes to with regard to the information required on these particular subjects, and they are really in trouble at the moment. I think the Land Commission authorities, under the direction of the Minister for Agriculture, could simplify the thing very much; they can remove this threatened withdrawal of the notices, and that would give the people an opportunity of complying with the conditions under normal and reasonable circumstances.
I do not know how Deputies have arrived at the conclusion that they are going to be prosecuted or persecuted.
It is in the paper.
Mr. HOGAN
Is that it? Apparently Deputy Wilson saw this in the paper. He reads it in the paper, and he comes in here and makes a long speech complaining to the Dáil that tenants have been processed, and that in lieu of send-out these notices we have issued processes——
On a point of personal explanation, I have not said any such thing. I said the notice has been issued in the Press in which it is (distinctly stated that the buff order is abolished, and you must pay your rent through a solicitor. It does not say where you pay it, but you cannot pay because no bank would take it.
Mr. HOGAN
The whole of this complaint is unreal, because Deputies do-not take the trouble to find out exactly what the procedure would be. The burden of the complaint made by Deputy Wilson and Deputy McGoldrick is that the Land Commission ceased to issue the notices which they had always previously issued, and that now the unfortunate tenant purchaser is going to be processed and cannot pay his annuity through the bank. That is not true. That is not a fact. If, instead of raising this here as a matter of national importance, the tenant purchaser walked into the bank with his annuity and Receivable Order, he would see it is not a fact. The whole trouble is that people do not want to pay their annuities. I do not say that that is true in the case of Deputy Wilson. or Deputy McGoldrick; but I do say that there is a minority of people who do not want to pay their annuities; and when they see a notice in the paper that the Land Commission is not going to waste good ink or paper in future in sending out notices to them, this matter is raised here. The fact is that if these people were desirous of paying their annuities, they would walk into any bank in Ireland and they would find that the bank would take their annuities from them.
That is all I want.
I have a letter from a tenant purchaser who forwarded his cheque on three occasions to the Land Commission. Now he has been processed for annuities which he has already paid. He did not get the Receivable Order back. The State Solicitor, I understand, has held up the Receivable Orders paid last Spring through the courts. I have had dozens of letters dealing with the annuities. Four thousand processes were issued last year to the tenants of Limerick for their annuities. When they paid through the court their Receivable Orders were not sent back and, therefore they were not able to pay the Land Commission. In one case a man paid by cheque to the Land Commission, yet he has been processed, notwithstanding that the cheques for three instalments had been forwarded but were not cashed.
Mr. HOGAN
That is a totally different case. The complaint of Deputy Nolan is that there are thousands of annuitants in the County Limerick who have not got back their Receivable Orders and hence cannot pay. That is a totally different matter from the question that Deputy Wilson has raised. I have a return here before me of arrears of annuities in the Co. Limerick and the amount is £30,000. Deputy Nolan's explanation of that is that the State Solicitor has held up the Receivable Orders. I beg leave to doubt that is the true explanation of these arrears. However, to come to the other point, the gale days are in the months of June and December. That is for the 1903 and 1909 Acts. We need not deal with the other cases. In the months of June and December the tenant-purchasers received their, Receivable Orders, and they are asked to pay their instalments of annuities before the 14th June and the 14th December, respectively. Now this year, as always, the Land Commission did not ask the banks to refuse to take the money on the 15th June or the 15th December. As a general rule they allow the banks to receive instalments of Land Purchase annuities up to the month of August in the case of the June annuities, and to the month of March in the case of the December annuity. That is the procedure.
On a point of explanation, I have been refused myself two years ago. I took the Receivable Order and the money into the bank and they refused it because it was after the 14th.
Mr. HOGAN
When was that?
Two years ago.
Mr. HOGAN
Two years ago. I would like to have the circumstances of the case. I do know that the Land Commission do not give instructions to the banks on the 15th June and the 15th December to refuse annuities. I know that they have not given instructions this year, and I know that if Deputy Wilson, or any other Deputy or tenant purchaser in the country who has not his annuity paid goes into the bank and offers his annuity and hands them the Receivable Order, that the bank will receive it. That is the Way at the present, moment.
The Receivable Order at the moment states specifically that the Bank will accept payment if paid before the 14th of the month, and that they will not accept it afterwards.
Mr. HOGAN
I am well aware of that. I have stated that they ask that the money be paid before the 14th, but the procedure is that the bank will not refuse to take annuities until such time as they receive instructions from the Land Commission to refuse annuities. These instructions have not been issued yet They will issue shortly, and it was because we intend to issue these instructions shortly that we published a notice in the Press to the effect that we require all arrears of annuities, interest in lieu of rent, compounded arrears of rent, and any other arrears of payment to be paid in immediately. So that our failure or refusal to send out extra notice makes no difference whatever to the tenant. If he goes into the bank at the present moment. the bank will receive payment of the half gale on the Receivable Order which the tenant purchaser received in December last. That is the way at present, and that will remain the case until we issue instructions through the Bank of Ireland to the various banks asking them to refuse to take annuities. We propose to issue these instructions shortly. We will give a little longer time, but not much. At present tenant purchasers have no grievance, and if those who think they have a grievance-would only take the trouble of taking their Receivable Orders into a bank and offering the money, they would find that they would have no grievance because the bank would accept the money. I take it at present that so long as Deputy Wilson is assured that there is no regulation against anyone who wishes to pay the half gale due in December last, without costs, and to pay it into any bank he wishes, that he is satisfied.
Yes.
Mr. HOGAN
I do not say that the bank will take the arrears due last-June. But the banks will take the annuity due on the 14th december. The fact that the Land Commission have waived their former procedure of sending out these notices has got nothing to do with the point. It is merely to save time, money and paper. At the present moment the Land Commission is, in fact and in practice, a land agent's office for every unpurchased estate in Ireland. The Collection Department of the Land Commission, is working extremely hard. The staff is on overtime since last September, and they have, something better to do in clearing the decks for action than in sending out notices to tenant purchasers who have purchased under the 1903 Act. That is why the sending out of these notices has been discontinued. It was a waste of stamps and time.
It is no harm or injury to the tenant purchaser, and he is not prejudiced by the failure to send out these notices. I have stated that it is the intention of the Land Commission to instruct the banks practically immediately to receive no further annuities. I want to impress on the Deputies that will be done immediately. It will be done before the end of this month.
I want to say here that there is growing up a custom, or a habit, to establish a hanging gale in connection with annuities. A minority of tenant purchasers never pay their annuities until they get three or four notices. Some Of them never pay until processed. That is to say, they get, in practice, six months grace because we are not able to get the returns from the banks for some time, and the serving of notices and instructing the solicitors to issue processes takes six months. All the time the annuities are due. There is a minority of tenant purchasers who are endeavouring for some time to establish the custom of a hanging gale in connection with Land Purchase annuities. They are the very same minority. I want to end that once and for all. I want every Deputy to understand that is a hardship to the ratepayers of the district. If the June half gale is not paid when it is due, it comes from the Guarantee Fund. If the December annuity is not paid at the end of January, there is a draw on the Guarantee Fund, and, in fact, the ratepayers of that county area paying for the people who are holding up this money for six months without interest. That is what is happening. In the County of Limerick there are thirty thousand pounds in arrears, that is in respect of the a annuity due last June. Every penny of that is being paid by the ratepayers out of the Guarantee Fund.
On a point of explanation, the reason why it is due is that they did not get back their Receivable Orders. The Receivable Order definitely states on the face of it that the Bank of Ireland will receive, on or before the 14th June, and not after, the amount named in the Receivable Order. The tenant purchaser cannot lodge it without having the Receivable Order.
Mr. HOGAN
It is quite absurd to say that £30,000 worth of Receivable Orders have been held up in any county.
On a point of order, I gave the Minister notice of four Receivable Orders being held up. On the 1st of October Receivable Orders were forwarded to those tenants, and they only got credit for payment on the 26th December. Money was handed to the State Solicitor in April, and it was only credited in December.
The Minister must be allowed to conclude without interruption.
Mr. HOGAN
I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that 95 per cent. of the people who owe the £30,000 have their Receivable Orders. That is a statement which Deputy Nolan can verify. The same applies to the £83,000 owed in Cork, to the £16,000 owed in Clare, and the £15,000 owed in Galway. The fact is, annuitants are trying to establish this custom of a hanging half-gale, and to take advantage of the fact that we are unable to get particulars, which would enable us to process them, for at least six, months, and the Guarantee Fund has to make good their default during that period. I take it that everybody is agreed that I state of affairs must be altered. It is unfair that the ratepayers of any district should be always having to pay for the same defaulters. That must stop, and stop very quickly, and for that purpose I propose shortly to introduce a Bill giving the-Judicial Commissioner power to make an order without going to Court in cases of that sort; that order, the moment the annuity is in arrear, can be executed immediately. I do not say that we would not give a week, or, a fortnight, or a month's grace, but we must get over this habit by which annuitants can escape payment for at least six months. That is the position at the present moment, and I think that meets the point made by Deputy Wilson.
The notice read out by Deputy Nolan states that the banks will receive payments before the 14th of June or the 14th December, but the question is, will they receive payment of the annuities after these dates?
Mr. HOGAN
I have stated before that during the last two years the banks have received this money long after the 14th June and the 14th December. I repeat, however, that that state of affairs will not exist much longer, because the banks will shortly receive instructions to refuse to take the annuities after these dates.
When that notice has been sent to the banks I would like to know if the Land Commission will simultaneously receive notice to refuse to accept by post annuities after the specified dates?
Mr. HOGAN
The Land Commission never received annuities sent by post because they could not keep their accounts if they were to do that.
I have known of several cases where after notice was served on the defaulters, the Land Commission repeatedly accepted the Receivable Order and cheque, for the annuity.
Mr. HOGAN
That is merely one statement against another. During the last two years the Land Commission found it difficult to collect the annuities, and in an odd case they may have done what the Deputies state. The Land Commission, as a rule, never received annuities by post. As I have stated, they could not keep their accounts if they were to do that, or if there was a rule of that kind.
I know that for the last 20 years in the Midlands and other places and under the British regime the practice that I refer to was carried out by the Land Commission. After the notice was served on the defaulter the Receivable Order with a cheque was sent on to the Land Commission; the Receivable Order was stamped in the usual way by the Land Commission and sent back to the tenant.
Mr. HOGAN
What I say is that if that happened it was irregular and will not happen in the future.
I would like the Minister to answer this question: when this order is issued to the banks instructing them to refuse to accept annuities after the 14th June and 14th December, will the Land Commission also receive instructions to refuse to accept the annuities after these dates if the tenant sends on the money?
Mr. HOGAN
I never said there is going to be any instructions to the banks to refuse to receive the annuities after the 14th June or the 14th December. I said they will receive them long after these dates, and although it is January now the banks are receiving them at present, but before the end of this month instructions will go to the banks to refuse to receive annuities after the dates on which they become due. After the specified dates, the annuities will only be received through the State Solicitor.
With extra costs, of course.
Mr. HOGAN
Yes, you do not get solicitors to work for nothing. If there are any cases where solicitors kept the annuities wilfully let me have them and I will have them investigated immediately.
The Dáil adjourned at 3.45 p.m. to Tuesday, January 15th.